The Relentless Mindset Behind a Million-Dollar Desk with Mollie Gunn

Just tell us a bit about that mindset because I think that'd be good for people to hear.

I am extremely numbers-driven, like as a number one thing in my life, like whether it's work or outside of work, I'm obsessed with numbers. Um, and I'm also obsessed with being the best. Like, I want everyone to do well, but I have to be the best. You could have 10 jobs on, but there's still going to be a potential better job out there, right? So you always have to have that BD-first mindset, in my opinion. Literally half an hour to an hour every single day is a non-negotiable in my mind. Like, you should absolutely be doing BD every single day. You can see that the quality of the clients that I was working with changed and the quality of the roles that I was working with. I'd spend my first maybe hour or two just literally like pre-screening candidates. I think I told you, in my mind I always wanted to achieve 5 BD calls and 5 candidate calls a day, but they had to be meaningful conversations. It's not like— what I would do is probably come in in the morning, try and knock 3 candidate calls out first thing, and then I'd be on BD from like 10 till 1.

Molly, welcome to the podcast.

Glad to be here.

So We've got a lot to get into. I'll be honest, you're the first recruiter to share with me the entirety of like all the activity of numbers driven. Like, I'd really appreciate you sending it because it was really cool to see year on year.

Yep.

What inputs you had to put in that meant what outcome you got. Yeah, so it's really cool to see that, you know, from Uh, what did you call it? Candidate screens, jobs on, CVs, interviews.

Yep.

So today what we're going to do is we're going to really try and break down this journey that you've been on, where from day one you've had that ambition to become a million-dollar biller, which took you a couple of years to get there.

Yes.

And we're going to break down this journey, and then now it's very much about, okay, well, what are you now doing to make sure that that wasn't just a one-off?

Yeah, yeah.

And also, how do we avoid complacency? What we're doing every single day, every single week to really maintain that high levels of performance. So to give everyone the career highlight reel, yeah, for yourself. Okay, so obviously been in recruitment for nearly 6 years. Yeah, started as a trainee on a pretty much, pretty much starting from zero, cold desk, no experience. So you're— it may have changed, but you're Remind me, your market is—

so I recruit across pharmaceuticals, animal health, medical aesthetics, and consumer health, and only commercial and medical affairs roles.

That's all been perm? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've not placed any contractors yet.

So you've got the— we've got the highlight reel here, and you give me the last 4 years, but first year you did around $185,000.

Yep.

And then the last, um, 4 years, including like how this year is tracking, so 2021 24 placements, uh, $518,000 revenue, average fee around $21,000.

Yep.

2022 was the million dollar year. So that would have been— so 2019, yes, a couple of years in.

Yeah.

51 placements, total revenue $1,086,000, average fee $21,000. So stayed around the same.

Yep.

Um, 2023, 24 placements, total revenue $611,000, average fee $25,000. So that started to creep up a bit. 2024, so last year, 25 placements, $768,000. It's a similar amount of placements but average fee $30,000. Yeah, that was my interest insight last year. And then year to date currently, I know when we prepped you're feeling confident about breaking that million again this year.

Oh, absolutely.

Love it, you're on track. So yeah, currently, uh, 16 placements, total revenue $475,000, average fee is still in and around that $30,000, so $28,000.

Just close one just before we got here.

Lovely. And then, uh, 30% of your revenue, which is, which is a new part of like how you're building your desk, is retained work.

Yep.

So as we can, as everyone can learn there, uh, really great journey, like, of consistent just like staying up there.

Yeah.

Because a lot of people that I've met will talk about it, but you— a lot of people I met had that sort of big goal of being the top performer.

Yep.

And a lot of people I've spoke to have said that what's harder is they're maintaining that.

Yeah, 100%.

So we're going to talk about that. So why don't we just first sort of unpack this sort of early period?

Okay.

And what Molly was like, how she was approaching sort of building a desk on the come up, because I think what's really important for people to understand and learn here is necessarily like not what you're doing today, but what you had to do all the way up to here. Do you know what I mean? Because I'm sure you've had that in your team.

Yep.

And people go to, "Oh, Molly, it's easy for you to say, you've got a network." Yeah. So we've got to try and do a good job here of like, right, what did it actually take? To get to this level.

Definitely.

So just to set the scene, so from the beginning it was 360.

Yep, never worked in recruitment before. So I mean, I've come from the industry, as in like always worked in pharmacies throughout my university, studied medicinal chemistry and pharmaceutical science. I guess that's been my good foundation blocks for me getting into this industry particularly. And worked in sales when I first got to Australia when I was 22, selling life insurance. So I think that's where I developed a love for the phone. I used to dial like 600 or 700 people a day, like it was absolutely mad. So coming into recruitment, I found that quite easy. So yeah, started off as a trainee in 2019, building my desk from scratch. I kind of thought it was warm when I came in, and it was absolutely not. Like, the business itself had been established by then. So we established ourselves in Australia, I think, 10 years ago now. So when I had come on board, that was 2nd of April 2019. I still remember the day. I remember my interview. I remember everything, like It's just such a journey to look back there versus where I am now. It's absolutely mad. And the job itself has like completely transformed my life. So yeah, um, started off as a trainee with absolutely no idea what I was doing. So 360, so everything from developing new clients, um, to all this, all the stuff on the candidate side as well. So, um, yeah, pretty much got in there and had no idea what I was doing, but got on the phone, rang everyone, and now I do.

And that's very much been the case, hasn't it? Like, you— because I know sometimes people are curious like that, okay, when you'd you had your best years? How many resources did you have?

Something?

Yeah. So what I just want to dig into, I feel like it's probably already coming across, your passion, your energy.

Yeah.

But like, I think what you said to me that stood out, which I think is a good insight for people, is you said to me you, you want to be the top performer, but if I know I can't be there yet because you just started, yep. But what can you be on top of? And that is out of the things that you can control.

Yeah.

Should you tell us a bit about that mindset? Because I think that I think that'd be good for people to, to hear.

So I am extremely numbers-driven, like, as a number one thing in my life, like, whether it's work or outside of work, I'm obsessed with numbers. Um, and I'm also obsessed with being the best. Like, I want everyone to do well, but I have to be the best. So I've come up— I've, like, grown up in competitive sports with dancing, horse riding. So I've just always naturally had that winning in my mind, and I'm not a sore loser, but I always just want to win. When I came into iFarm, like, obviously I could see there was a lot of opportunity there, really wanted to be the best, wanted to be a million million-dollar biller from the minute I got in the door, which was obviously unrealistic. But I remember actually messaging you in 2019. I think we spoke about this. It was like a full circle moment. I remember listening to your podcast in 2019. I remember I used to Google like, how do I become a million-dollar biller, and all this stuff. And it felt so out of reach at that time because in our business, we were, you know, in establishment for about 5 years at that time. And what a good year looked like for somebody in recruitment at iFarm then would be like $400,000 or $500,000. Like, that was a really good year then. And we've certainly raised the bar now to what, what good looks like. Um, But yeah, came in with a mindset of I want to be the best, but obviously can't be billing a million dollars on a cold desk from scratch with no experience. So I was like, right, what can I be the best at? And I was like, well, I can be the best at activity. And I always go back to like what I call my non-negotiables on my desk, and I still do this every single day. So there's two things that you can really control in my mind in recruitment. So it's your outreach to your, your candidates and your clients. They're definitely two things that you can control, right? So it was BD and it was candidate calls, and that was it. And everything else would obviously filter on from that. Like, the more BD you did, the more jobs you got on. The more jobs you got on, the more CVs you sent. The more CVs you sent, the more interviews you get. So you can see how if you filter that down from those two non-negotiables, how you can actually build out your desk. So when I used to come in, like, I'd start my day probably at about 8. At that time it was like super rigid. We were in the office 5 days a week. Your lunch break was between 1 and 2. There was no minutes either side here. Like, that was it. Like, you know, I've come from that environment in recruitment. Obviously it's very flexible these days, um, but when I would come in, I'd spend my first maybe hour or two just literally like pre-screening candidates. I think I told you, in my mind I always wanted to achieve 5 BD calls and 5 candidate calls a day, but they had to be meaningful conversations. It's not like— I've seen recruiters like, oh, I've had a BD call with somebody, I rang them and they told me to call them back next week. That's not a BD call in my mind, right? So I think you also have to be really honest with yourself about what is a BD call, what's a candidate call, and what value am I adding to the person that I'm speaking to. So there has to be a meaningful conversation there. So it was always aiming for 5 BD calls and 5 candidate calls a day. And that's obviously when I was building out my desk from scratch. So what I would do is probably come in in the morning, try and knock 3 candidate calls out first thing, and then I'd be on BD from like 10 till 1. So that was my morning, non-stop.

Just when you say pre-screen, just like, what do you mean by that?

Just like qualification call. Yeah, qualification call. I'd find a candidate on one of the job boards. I was also doing outreach on LinkedIn at that time, and I'd be ringing candidates saying, look, I don't have anything now, but I'm building up my network, really keen to get an understanding of who you are and what you'd be looking for, and just building up that talent pool from the minute I got in. So some of those candidates are— I still remember the very first candidates I ever spoke to during that time, like, seriously. So that's what I was doing for the first, honestly, 3 years. Like, I think people think building a desk is so easy, expect a lot of quick wins. Like, I was getting wins but it wasn't necessarily what I wanted to— like, where I see myself now, if that makes sense. Like, what I'm doing now are clients that I want to work with, their roles I want to work, the level that I'm at. You know, my average fee has obviously increased over the years. That was something that was really important to me. So those first 3 years were just about building who I am, my network, and then kind of there onwards it's really just uplifted. So yeah, like I said, come in, and for the first 3 years, you've seen my activity, I was number 1 on all the leaderboards.

That didn't waver when you look at the spreadsheet. Like, it really didn't waver, which is even you had your million?

Yeah, yep, still keep doing BD. Like, that's my biggest— and I still try and drill that into everyone in the team. Like, you could have 10 jobs on, but there's still going to be a potential better job out there, right? So you always have to have that BD-first mindset, in my opinion. You know, obviously you could have a load of jobs on, you're feeling really stressed, you don't know if you can actually put the time aside to do it. Literally half an hour to an hour every single day is a non-negotiable in my mind. Like, you should absolutely be doing BD every single day.

So how, how would you define a BD call then? Like, if I was in your team So how would we define that, just so we're on the same page?

Basically, it would be a contact that you've not had a BD call with in that month. So it has to be a brand new— well, not a brand new call, but it would have to be outside of 4 weeks. Like, I don't want you calling the same person every week and saying that's a BD call. That's not true. Like, client update calls in a process, that's not a BD call. It's identifying somebody. It's, you know, picking up the phone. Like I said to you before, and we'll probably touch that on, on that in a bit, I kind of wanted to have this approach where I'd be speaking to somebody before they're even recruiting. So it's understanding who the team is, who's reporting into them, like how do they currently recruit, what is their process, what challenges do they have, are they recruiting at the moment, like those sorts of conversations, um, and kind of filtering on from there.

And then if we think about that early period, yeah, is there any— if we just sort of cast back there, because I think this is good for people to hear— were there any like moments maybe like you had some real painful dropouts or you got messed around? Was there any moments where you're like shit, actually, I'm actually going to get to where I want to get to. I maybe even thought about quitting recruitment. I don't know.

I was just about to tell you, I did definitely 100%. It's like, you know what it's like the first 6 months in recruitment? They're hideous. Like, especially when you're building a cold desk, it's constant rejection, it's constant no. I mean, I built 185K in 8 months, which is fine, but like, I had such high expectations of doing more. So that first 6 months were like really, really challenging. I remember going home from work one day and crying, being like, is this the right job me. And I'm a loser. I like asked my nana, who's in heaven, can you please send me a, uh, what did I say? Please send me a sign that this is the right job for me. And her favorite chocolate bar just randomly ended up on my— in my house like the next day. And it's like this really random and weird old chocolate bar. And I was like, what the hell? Where did this come from? And my housemate just randomly picked it up and was like, yeah, I just walked past it and felt like I should buy this chocolate bar. And so I was like, right, recruitment's for me. Done. That's it. I'm staying in it. It was actually also coupled up with the fact that I got my first like big commission check in January. So I'd been in the job from April to January and I was like, I'm well out of this. I was like, like all of the things that I go through, like the highs and lows of recruitment, I can absolutely manage it. Um, it's worth it, not just for the like monetary value, but I actually get so much enjoyment out of speaking to people all day. So yeah, absolutely, for 6 months I was like, I don't know.

So what made you get to that point then? Was it that you like just non-stop rejection.

There was a couple of things that happened. I remember a few, like, offers had— a candidate had been offered and then the client retracted the offer. And that was— in this day, who cares? Like, that's fine, all good, that's grand. Whereas like back then, that's like, oh my God, the world is ending. I've, you know, I've offered this candidate the role and they're the client. Okay, sorry, I'll take that back and say I'm not like, who cares? But I think I've grown emotionally so much now that like a lot of things just don't really face—

it doesn't affect you.

No. Whereas back then, like somebody not accepting an offer, or, you know, a client pulling an offer, pulling the job, or a job that you've worked to the bone that was exclusive, you know, now they've decided to fill it internally. Like, all that stuff kills you in the first few years. Now it's just like, well, I'm just not going to let that happen anymore.

And do we think— I've got my thoughts on this, but do we think you have to go through that to get to that point?

Yes.

Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? Like, you do have to go through those feelings. There's no avoiding it.

I actually feel like if you come into a recruitment job and it's real easy and happy days from the get-go, you're gonna screw yourself over. Over it in a year or two when things turn. Like, you have to go through the shit— excuse my French— but you do. And like, the girl that's on my team at the moment, I'm coaching her through that now. She's been doing it for 2 months and she's had loads of things that have knocked her back. And I'm like, Orla, I would rather you have this now, right now, than come in, fly it, and 6 months down the line you think, I'm just this amazing biller, and then all of a sudden things change, and then you go and you do a donut, and then you're in the, like, in the horrors. I'd rather you go through this now and build a resilience so that when all these things happen in the future, they become so minuscule that it's just like, right, cool, you get your tiny violin out, you have your 5-second cry, and then you go again. And that's, that's—

yeah, yeah, I've seen that a lot in terms of the, the flip side, in terms of what you said, like people that did really well, maybe did a placement fairly quickly, and then 6 months later down the line when they then actually maybe run into process problems, had knockbacks, and they did— they are just a lot more harder to swallow once you've had the taste of that because you start questioning, hang on a minute, I was doing this, it was working.

Yeah, and don't get me wrong, I still have that doubt every single day, like, but I think that's what drives me to be a really good recruiter, is having the awareness that you could always be doing something better. And you could— you always have a bit of imposter syndrome and a bit of self-doubt, like, oh my God, am I the best recruiter out there? And yes, I am, but you know, some days you don't feel like you are. But I genuinely believe, like, you have to go through this, this hard period and come out the other side. And that's why I think— what are the stats with people, like, starting off as a trainee? I'd most people don't make it past 6 months. So if you can make it past the first 6 months, year, like, you will be really resilient. You'll have thick skin. Things just become so much easier to manage, and it just becomes like, ah, I've seen this before, here we go.

And then, so that— I think that, that's the reframe that people maybe need to listen to in here, that like, okay, rather than taking this all personally, rather than just sitting in that like negativity, actually, no, this is a good thing that I'm going through. It's going to make me strong in the long run. And then just to round this bit out then, just so we've really painted a clear picture, in terms of the other thing I think is helpful for people is then just really be dialed in on the stuff that you can control.

Totally.

Which is the inputs, right? So in terms of in, in that early period, you still may have the same expectation yourself now, maybe wrong, but like what would have a good day look like? I know you said it earlier, so is it just the 5 BD calls, the 5 candidate calls, that, that's all you cared about? Or like what, what if—

yeah, I mean It's very different now, right? Like, what my day looks like now, maybe I'll give you an example of it. But like, yeah, when I was building at my desk, it wasn't about anything other than speaking to as many people as possible and building out my network, like literally connecting with people. So it was literally 4 to 5 BD calls in the morning and then 4 to 5 candidate calls in the afternoon as an absolute non-negotiable. I started to use things like intro back then, which I think I was telling you about with BD, which would be in the morning sending out videos of me being like, hi, I'm Molly, I'd love to recruit for you, or whatever. So that was another element that came into it, but I very rarely did things via email. Like it was always a phone-first approach. Like, I used to spend— and I probably still do it now— like, I probably spent most of my day on the phone. Like, I used to actually track it, like, how many dials did I make today and how many hours did I spend on the phone? And every single day I'd always be the one that was like 4 or 5 hours every single day on the phone.

Really?

Every day. I just love talking to people. I always say, like, my job's so good because I get paid to talk to people all day. Like, how lucky am I? Great. And obviously I have to do the admin and stuff associated with it, but like generally speaking, I'm phone-first approach. So that's pretty much what I did and I still do.

So why, why don't we then go into like the, in the inputs and the activities is a very important part of the equation, right? So like to get— and you'll be coaching, you know, your team now, and I'm sure you've helped others, but to really increase your chances of succeeding in this game, yep, you've got to be having enough shots at goal. Yeah, right, you was doing that. I think then maybe why don't we get into— we can— we'll get into the detail of like your very— your like favorite BD tactics, stuff like that.

Yep.

But when on like reflection, where was the areas that you feel like you really had to improve, like the efficiency of stuff? Because then that's what we're going to get into, like your ratios. And yes, okay, it's good to speak— that's great that you speak to people, but then you, you would have— and it's in, in the spreadsheet you can see it, that you've got better, uh, you know, your ratios of like CV to interviews more tighter and these things. You're then getting the most out of these things.

It comes down to honestly quality as an overall, and it's not just on the candidate side or the client side. It was for me, and you'll see that like I think the amount of BD calls it took for me to get the amount of jobs on that I placed in, uh, 2022, you can see that the quality of the clients that I was working with changed and the quality of the roles that I was working with and probably I was screening— like, not screening, sorry, but in my briefing calls, which I kind of flipped as well. Like, a lot of the time for those first 3 years, I wasn't really pushing for me— like, I was meeting people, but if I had a role come in, you know, it'd be like 10-15 minute briefing call on the phone and then straight on to it. Whereas, yeah, I think what changed in probably 2022 was maybe even 20— actually, no, it was probably earlier on because of COVID We couldn't really meet people as much as we used to, but I think having really committed clients really good roles, um, really exciting things to be working with, and companies that I felt aligned to, companies I felt really interested in. And then on the candidate side, you know, 6 years of now recruiting, I actually know what good looks like. You know, you can know what good looks like from the very get-go based on a CV, but like culture fit, all that sort of stuff, that's the stuff that I've really got really strong at. I think one of our clients recently said to us, like, we've placed— well, this— well, this placement today will be our 9th with them over the last 2 years. They're a small company, there's only probably 30 to 40 employees. That's quite a significant amount of people that we place with them, but it's the culture fit that we get really every time, right? Um, and so that's something that we really pride ourselves on now, is being able to match people to specific cultures, or, and clients as well. So I think it's the quality overall of who I was working with and the level of candidates I was able to bring across to.

Okay, right.

So that makes sense.

Yeah, that does, I think. And then just to highlight this Um, it says year 4 here, but basically, yeah, so I've got on here on that spreadsheet, one of the years it was you had 88 jobs, and from that there's 47 deals. So I think that that's like, yeah, just over 50% fill rate, right? But what I just want to sort of double-click on a sec is, so if I, if I'm listening right now, I'm on the come up, I'm doing the input, got the energy, I'm focusing on what I can control. The thing that maybe, with your experience, what do you think would be a really good thing to really focus on first to get better on the quality side? So what you just said there was, I used to do 10 50-minute calls on jobs, maybe just get high-level stuff.

Yeah.

And go away. Would you— if I'm on the come up right now, I want to improve my efficiency, I want to get more out of what I'm putting in— is it on the client side that I really need to draw that? Where would you—

I think on the client side for sure.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah. I think when you're building a desk from scratch, it's really easy to fall into that pattern of just like, I'll take anything on and I'll work it. And that's fair enough because you have to build your network, you have to build who you are. In the industry. And I think if you looked at like the roles I was working in 2019, 2020, 2021 versus what I'm working now, which are like director-level roles, heads of— like, clearly there's a big difference between what I was doing back then versus what I'm doing now. So sometimes like the quality can take time, right, to just build yourself up. So building a desk isn't easy. You shouldn't expect that, you know, within one year you're going to be the expert in the field. It takes time. So I think from that perspective, you know, being mindful of that and not being easy on yourself, but being like, okay, I know if I keep going I'll eventually get to where I want to be. But I do think that like from the client side, it's really like making sure that you're working with good committed clients that will meet you face to face or meet you on Teams. Like they'll have weekly catch-up calls with you to talk about progress on the roles, they'll give you feedback within a certain amount of time on CVs and on interviews, they'll be a true partner. And that's what I think really had made the difference is we're partners, we're not this trans— and I hate transactional recruitment. Like, if I get a sniff of it, I'm like, I don't want to work these roles.

So I think, whereas before you might have— yeah, well, you did.

Yeah, for sure. Yep. And it was like, well, it's the easiest thing to do when you're building yourself up, is, you know, yeah, work roles that maybe you didn't— you wouldn't work now, you know, that kind of way. So I think it just really became— it was a flick of just being like, right, I don't have to work with every client now that I've established myself. I can say no. I can say no to that role. I can say no to that client, and I can walk away from people who are trying to negotiate on really crappy fees, and because they don't value my service, and I want to feel valued as a partner. So I think that was something that really like completely uplifted my business, is working as a partner, an extension of a, of a company's brand eventually.

Do you think it's— to get to that point, do you think it's refining your process first or getting your mindset there first?

Mindset. I think for sure I'm still refining my processes every day, right?

So yeah, like, just the way you were talking, it seems like you had more of like a— yeah, like a real— not a complete identity shift, but it was like, no, like, I know what value I can bring. Like, and you have to get there, don't you? Have to arrive there and believe that.

Yeah. I feel like I also gained so much confidence that, like, you know, it's almost like if you speak to me, I'm almost assuming that I'm working together with this person on an initial meeting. That's like, how could I not work with them, like, because you're so confident, you're an expert in the field, you're giving them value on those calls. So it made it really not easy, but it made it a lot easier for me to get clients on now than I would have back then. So I think definitely the mindset thing, the confidence piece, um, and like knowing your worth, like being able to walk away from people that you don't feel aligned to. So yeah, you know, in those first few years, probably, probably could have walked away from some, some clients, but gained a lot of experience by working with them. And I really figured out what I like and what I don't like.

So, and where does— okay, so we went there. What about, is it on the— because I do feel like whenever I speak to recruiters, recruitment teams, it does typically feel like on the candidate side, yep, people— and you'll probably see this with a team, have seen it— that people feel the most competent and confident on that side way more quickly.

Yep.

So what is it that I need to remain disciplined with? Again, if I'm on the come up, have big goals, I want to become a million-dollar biller, what is it that you've had to really remain discipline with on that side? Is it not cutting corners on the pre-screenings, asking the right questions, maximize— like getting information?

Is it getting information, spending a lot of time? I have this thing in my mind that like every candidate that I speak to, whether they're in a job or they're not, at some point they're probably going to be a hiring manager. And that's how I should go into every single call. So you know how you screen a candidate who in the future could be a hiring manager? Well, they've seen how you've gone through the whole process, they've seen how you've talked about the company, they've seen how you've told them what the role is. So all the detail that you've given those calls, like I, I I know of candidates that just get random job descriptions sent to them by recruiters and they're like, this is the job I'm recruiting for. No effort even put in there to like make a phone call to somebody. So I think doing like the bare minimum— like, shouldn't have to say that— but doing the bare minimum and the basics really well on the candidate side, because in my mind at some point they're going to be a hiring manager. So I often would speak with senior candidates whether they were in jobs or not. I think I spoke to you about this already. So, um, if they were in a job, like, I'd I'd really want to get them on the database because I knew at some point I wanted to focus on more senior hires. That was another thing, I suppose, that changed in my business. Um, but I would speak to them as a candidate, get to know them, and then I would obviously ask them about their business at the end. So if you're a little bit hesitant about doing business development, maybe try that as an approach, which is essentially a candidate call that you flip to BD. So that might make that little transition a bit easier for you if you're worried about calling a general manager or managing director like like you've gone through that process already with them, you've built rapport. So asking them those questions become a bit easier at the end. And then having them on a call cycle. Um, and even the candidates that are out of work, like, treat them as if they're in your network as a client. Call them every 3 months, ask them how the job search is going. I promise you, at some point they're going to be a hiring manager. So I think the candidate side is so important. And for us at iFirm, we always really, really say candidate and client experience is the exact same. There's no one side weighs more than the other.

And I know that you love the phone.

Yep.

But like, just, I'm just curious, like, how important is it here to like meet people?

So important. In Australia, it's a really, really relationship-driven environment. So when I was in, when I, my first few years, I used to get out and meet people all the time, really, for coffees, catch-ups, and still do it. Like, at the moment, I think just for May, was it So what month are we in? May?

Yeah.

Maeve and I have been on like at least 2 a week, if not more. Like this week I've got 4. So like I'm always trying to get out and meet people as much as possible. It's like the fun part of the job, right? Like go out, go for lunch, go for coffees, maybe go for a drink. Like it's a missed opportunity. Yeah, 100%. And we know that if we're not meeting our clients, well, our competitors are. Because we— one of our really good clients actually told us that one of our competitors knocked on the door only recently, just like, really? What up? Yeah, they were like, oh, don't worry, we use Molly only. But like, yeah, they're out there doing it. So definitely get out there and meet people, 100%.

Right, okay. So let's, let's maybe get a bit intentional about— so going into— so 20— so basically going into 2022.

Yep.

I mean, to be fair, you had like the same around— I mean, that was like the boom period, wasn't it? So yep, it like— you had the same average fee basically, but you just did double the placements.

Yep.

Is there anything that we did drastically different there besides like market— you could like the market, like by this point of you build experience, is there anything?

Well, there was one thing that really set I think 2022 apart. So I had a multi-hire campaign and where I placed like maybe 17 people for one company, so that was good. And but what worked really well with that was it was a multi-hire campaign, but it was actually a few different roles I was working with at the same time. So basically there's two things also that are really important to me and we call them JMI and CMIs. So jobs with multiple interviews and candidates with multiple interviews. And for 2022, like, rather than me worrying about placing a job, I was placing a candidate, right? So I could have a candidate in 4 different processes and be like, right, I'm confident they're going somewhere. So it was kind of like I was working so many similar roles that I was confident in placing the candidate, and I was confident in placing the role. Of course, that's obviously changed a bit now with the roles that we recruit, um, particularly in the retained space, but But that was something that was really important. And I think the JMI thing, um, which is the jobs at multiple interviews, is something that I still drive absolutely hard with, with my team and everyone. Like, you need to be having more than just one candidate at a process. So that's something that we absolutely try to really exhaust the market with.

When do you, when do you typically feel like that's covered? Like, you want 2, 3 candidates in the process?

You'll laugh because I'm like, you do not stop until that job is placed, the candidate has signed the contract, and they've given their notice. Because in my mind, you're in a— we're in a role, we're in a really weird sales role where you are selling two products essentially, and both of them have brains and both of them can change your mind at any time. So in my mind, for to cover a job effectively, you want to have 3 to 6 CVs at a job as an absolute minimum. But I'm always at the mindset of, if you get to the end of a process, what if you only have one candidate? What happens if something in their personal life happens and they decide they want to pull out of the process? Or the client decides, oh, actually we want a comparator. So that's a hard one for me to say. Solid, like you would cover a job with 3 to 6 CVs, but in the background I'd still be keeping an eye on, on candidates just in case anything were to happen.

Fair enough. How—

I'm a bit anxious with stuff like that.

How, how did it feel breaking that? Because I'm sure you thought a lot about it.

Oh my God, how was that?

How did that feel when you got to— when you realized that you achieved that?

Yeah, it was mad. Like, it was crazy to look back at it and be like, I've dreamed of this for so many years. And like, I knew it was— I didn't— I honestly didn't realize it was in reach until like maybe midway through 2022. Actually, I didn't tell you about this, but I placed 11— it was either 11 or 12 people for $275,000 in a month. And I was like, oh, you had a $275,000 a month? I was like, oh shit, it's on. I think I was at that point like maybe on about $800K, and then I was like, oh my God, this is in reach. Like, this is, this is crazy. And then it was like, I had loads of stuff going on. I wasn't just focusing on that, obviously. I was working with everyone as I usually would, but I was just like, I have to do this now. It's if not now, when? Like, when am I going to get this opportunity again? And yeah, it was crazy. I remember coming into the office and like, they all know that I've wanted to be a million-dollar biller for years. So there was like a— I actually have a photo of it on my phone my director sent me today. They got me a bunch of flowers. There's like this 1 million like balloons that they got because they knew it was like— it was— I was the first million-dollar biller for our company ever. So that's huge. Yeah, it was massive. Now obviously that's in my own currency, but it was neck and neck between myself and one other guy in the US who's like, um, we work very, very differently, but he recruits in commercial in the US. Um, so we've always been sort of neck and neck with each other. We're actually going on the big builder trip together next week, so that'll be fun. Um, but yeah, I remember it was the 7th of November and I hit a million, and he hit it 17th of November. and I was like, yes, I did it! So yeah, it was unreal. Just excited to do it again.

And like, how— like, does it happen? Does it sort of creep in pretty quickly? Like, right, what's next? Sort of.

Yeah, always. That's always me though. I'm like, oh my God, so I got to a million. I'm like, can I get to 1.25? Like, where, where is the rest of this coming from? And I, I think I ended up like on 1,089,000, and then obviously the market tanked. But like, my director was like to me, what do you think you want to do this year? And I was like, and he was like, oh, calm down. I was like, okay. Um, but it's all— that's me. Like, I'll get to a milestone and then I'm like, all right, what's next? Like, it's like becoming a director. I'm like, where, where do I go to now? What's the next goal? Like, it's like my marathons. I do, I do it and I have a PB. Oh God, how am I going to get that even lower the next time? Like, that's— yeah, weird brain.

And so, like, going— so going into basically then 2023, like how— like, just curious, like as I said earlier, yep, when I've spoken to people sometimes that can be a bit of a struggle. You're not like trying to— you're not like climbing up trying to get somewhere or chasing someone or chasing a goal. You've now got to like maintain that or do better, as you just said. So like, yeah, how did you feel going into that mentally? Like, was you a bit concerned about getting complacent? Did that ever come in or no? Or was you like—

yeah, definitely. I mean, I'm always worried about complacent agency. That's my— I have a fear of being average, so that's just not something that's ever going to happen in my wheelhouse. But, um, yeah, I definitely came into 2023 being like, okay, right, how do we go again? Like, it's always scary starting a year again, right? Starting on zero. Oh, you're at the same as everyone else now, go for it. Um, and then obviously the market was not great in 2023. We're really lucky that we work in the healthcare industry, and like, paying taxes and dying, as grim as it is, people are always going to are going to become unwell. So unfortunately, there's always going to be a need for people in healthcare and pharmaceuticals. My market definitely, um, was challenging because a lot of the people that I recruit are out in field, um, so that means they're out seeing customers every day. And during COVID obviously they couldn't. So we've definitely seen some challenges over the years in that, in that market. But, um, yeah, it was hard in 2023 when it was like, oh, it's actually a lot harder to do this than you're thinking. Oh, did I fluke that? Like, was just a fluke.

You had those?

Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. Like, I was like, oh my God, how did I do that?

Like, did I just—

I don't know, it was crazy. Um, and yeah, look, I was happy to, to land where I did in 2023, given how hard it was to actually just get a job on and get good committed clients. A lot of our clients were facing, um, headcount challenges and restructures. So like, it was, it was hard, and I definitely had imposter syndrome and definitely thought it was a fluke and that I just don't know how.

How did you not let that consume you then?

Because I've just always had this this, like, relentless, like, well, is that true, or are you just making this up in your head? Like, I, I say that to myself all the time. Like, are you a shit recruiter? No, you're obviously not. So, like, get back on and just keep going. And that was just it. Like, just keep going, keep going. 2024 was a bit better, obviously, um, and then we've come into 2025, and it's like, right, well, now I've been doing this for 6 years now, built a really strong presence, not only in person or online, but on, like, well, online, but LinkedIn it. That's been a massive, massive, uh, like, I think that's definitely uplifted my business over the last few years. So building that has been huge.

So let— like, what did you sit down and really think about? I wanna like grow my average like deal size, which means like work more senior people basically.

Yep.

When did it— when did you think about that? When was you— if I was— when I was— if I was in like a meeting with you as your manager, you said like, right, this is like one of my big goals this year. Did you— was you really quite intentional about it?

I think we do business plans every year. Yeah, in January. And I had— we always go back on the year before and we reflect. We're like, okay, how did you go with last year's goals versus what you actually achieved? So I think in 2024, I was— what was my average fee?

2023, it was like 25 and a half, and 2024 is nearly 30.

So it's almost like, I swear, I say things out loud and then they happen. So in 2022, I would have said I want to get my average fee to 25K, to 25K, and then I would have figured out like, what's that, 40 placements would get me to a million or something along the lines of that. I can't, can't do the maths, that's probably wrong. But anyway, went into 2023 with like, right, okay, that has to be 25K. But I don't want to make it seem like all I care about is deal value and placements, but it was more just actually I want to work on better quality roles, more committed and more senior hires, because that's where I'm strong. Like, I've got such a strong network of senior people, I really wanted to just focus on that space. And I always wanted to, like, from when I started at iPharm, to not have to recruit junior roles. Like, I always wanted to work things that are more senior because I enjoy engaging with people at that level, um, and they're just more interesting in terms of the conversations I have. So it was definitely intentional. So I, I literally remember like going back in 2024 and looking at my business plan from 2023 and be like, okay, I got $25K, so I hit that goal. Well, I want to take it to $30K now. And then now that I've got to $30K, I want to maintain at $30K. Like, because the reality is I'm working more senior roles, but we had a massive team build with a client that came to us this year with like 52 roles, right? So, um, that's a big volume of recruitment that we're doing with lower deal value, and that was fine because they're a really long partner with ours. But I knew that that would take my average fee down. So the more senior roles, I had to still recruit them. But like, I kind of look at like my more junior roles, if I do recruit them, almost like contract revenue. They're the kind of quick wins. And then you have your more senior hires.

So let's just talk about this for a sec because I know there'll be people listening that like the idea of getting to that point where you got to.

Yep.

Obviously, firstly, you've got to be intentional about that. That's what you want, that's where you want to get to.

Yep.

From what I'm hearing here, it sounds like over time, you'd, you know, you've been in the same space, you firstly, you recognized that you were building a network, you had a network of these people that are in senior positions. I'm assuming maybe by this point as well, you'd maybe done a handful of placements, a handful of senior ones, but that maybe wasn't known for that, or typically the jobs that, um, you did win weren't that.

Yep.

So just talk to us a bit about like what was the actual strategy, like what actually worked here in terms of, yeah, raising that. And just Molly was known as like, you know, she had— she places our heads of roles versus all the other stuff that she's been used to.

Actually, I also forgot to— forgot to mention one thing about how my average fee increased. So I'll get to your point in a second, but also, um, when we were building our desk, we did work at lower rates. So that was something that we kind of did as an entry into getting into clients. And pretty much from, I think, 2023 onwards, I was like, right, no, we're not doing that anymore. So my fees went up and I've maintained at that sort of higher level fees as well. So sorry, that was one more thing that I meant to add.

Um, what percentage points are we talking?

So initially when we were recruiting roles, we would all always sort of— we went in with this like, oh, what are you working at with other agencies? 'Oh well, of course they're going to tell you the lowest.' So they'd say, 'Oh, you know, 14%— well, we can't do that, we'll do 15.' So a lot of our roles, we were recruiting at 15%. Um, but what I do versus what somebody, you know, who is charging 15% is extremely different. So I really value the service that I bring to my clients. We're a boutique agency, we're— there's only 10 of us, so we have to have higher fees in order to keep us afloat. Um, 20% at a minimum is what I work now. Um, and that was a real mind shift change where I wasn't asking the client what they're working at already because I don't actually care.

You went in, yeah, don't really—

it doesn't really matter what you're working out with the other agencies because they're not— you're not happy with them, so it doesn't really matter. So it was more just like, right, it's 20%.

No, I'm glad you brought that up because that's pretty key. Yeah, it's changing. Yeah, because, because people, I'm sure that can be overlooked. Even like a few percentage points can have a big difference at the end of the year, can't it?

Completely. Like, there was a, um, a couple of months ago, one of our actual clients clients increased our fees. How amazing is that? Like, that never happens. And it was a difference of like 6K in a placement for one, for one role, just by a couple of percent, 2% maybe. And they increased their fees, so that's obviously great. But yeah, it was very much like I stopped asking what they're working at with other agencies because it really doesn't matter. They're not happy, they're not placing the roles, and what we do is very different in my approach. I absolutely stand to that. And rather than faffing about around the question, it was like, right, well, we work at 20% and say Nada, nothing. And then it was like, okay. And then when I started doing it, I was like, okay, wow, people actually value what I'm saying. And then that was it.

So that had a big impact. What else do we do to be intentional about it? Did you start really being like, just really making sure that you're always speaking to the senior people, like being more intentional about that?

Yep.

How did— because do you think it— do you think it's damaging to get into that end goal if in the same breath I'm saying I don't know your job titles, but yes, I can recruit that job title, which is more junior, but at the same— on the same call, in the same breath, going, yeah, I can also do your head of— I feel like that can be quite— it can in terms of your perception.

Yep. Because a lot of the clients then, they kind of separate you. So they have you as their like absolute dedicated supplier, but then offer a GM or a head of role, potentially they have an exact— an exact search firm that they will bring in for that. And that happened to me with one of the clients I've worked with for years. One of the GMs left and they placed it, and I was like, oh 'Oh, why didn't you come to me for that? Like, how come you didn't know?' So I definitely think you have to be mindful of that. Um, you want to be able to position your services in a way that you can offer different levels of service, but also like saying no to things that, you know, if you're too busy, you've got too many roles on, like, 'Look, we really appreciate the work, but we are too busy and we can't actually service those jobs because we're working more senior hires.' That's, that's kind of it. But I think how I managed to get the senior hires, I was actually from my, um, current clients and been working with them for so many years that they've seen the work that I've done. They know that I know their culture. Um, so like, as an example, one of the guys that we've been working with for 6 years, last year was the first time they gave me a head of medical affairs role, right? So it's taken that long to get there.

Um, how did you position that then? Like, did you really make sure that they was aware that you can do this? Yeah, like, how did you position that?

So like, always dealing with the highest people in the business. So always speaking to your GMs, your managing directors, you know. I definitely still involve HR in the process, by the way. I know a lot of recruiters are a bit, I don't know, iffy with that. But I've always included HR in the process, so sticking to the senior people and just keep bringing home that we are the specialist in that space. So even this year, like Dana, um, who's in clinical, placed a CEO. You know, we've pitched for CMO roles and stuff. So, um, I think it's just been— there's not really— I can't really say what it has been that's kind of shifted it because it's probably been a number of things. It's been a multi-channel approach to the LinkedIn stuff that we do, but but being able to actually get these roles on and use case studies then for when we are pitching for future roles. So it's, it's been a number of different things, but I definitely think, um, having the network in the senior space with those candidates has really helped as well. But I also think all the stuff that we do on LinkedIn— we post a lot about leadership— like, that's something that we're showing we know what we're talking about here, um, and we've seen a lot of good things come from that too.

Well, what might, what might be interesting to hear— I don't know if you remember, but you know, when you said one of your clients didn't work with you for that GM role.

Yep.

Did you ask why?

No.

Oh, you didn't?

No, because I didn't know who to speak to. Because—

oh well, there you go, that's the insight then.

Yeah, because they're in— God, they're in Europe somewhere, right? So then it was just like, oh okay, well now I'm, I'm in with the, like, the GM obviously now. What happens if they leave again? So that's definitely something that I need to work out.

I think that— because yeah, you might— they might have shared like, oh, I thought 'You know, we've always worked through this. I wasn't sure, like, that'd be something you could help with, but fair.' Okay, it was more of a—

that often happens with like a European HQ, right? Sometimes they have these global partnerships with these shrek firms, um, or even these bigger, you know, recruitment companies. So like, I guess you have to try and break the barrier through that as well. So probably means that you need to, um, if you're really, really keen to get in with a partner, like, you probably need to also have, um, an approach for their offices overseas and really trying to find a way to get an intro that way so that, you know, if your person does leave, well, there's somebody in here that you can speak to.

So share with us like how you sort of broke through that sort of ceiling, I guess, in terms of the types of roles that you're working.

Yeah.

The other— where did the— because you was honest with me, wasn't you? Like, what— like, why did you— why did you not believe that like retained was a better solution? Because that, that's— that seems like the next sort of— see, like the ceiling maybe you put on. I don't know, you're like breaking through it. Like, you're, you're again, you're continuing to try and evolve.

Yep, I think it— retained is absolutely a mindset shift, 100%, because if you're a true contingent recruiter, one of the easiest things to do is if something gets too hard, you walk away. If a client gets too hard, you don't want to deal with them anymore, they're not giving you feedback, you know, they're not valuing the service that you're bringing, you can walk away. And I think that was probably something that also really helped in my mindset and shifting towards like higher fees and stuff like that. Is because I've gone like, okay, well, rather than really push to keep working in that way, why don't we work differently? Like, why don't we work as a partner? And that's obviously where the retained stuff came in. So I think when I first learned about retained recruitment, I was bought into it, but I just felt like it was so far away. How was I ever going to get there? Such a hard sell. Like, it's a real hard pitch for you to have to do, but it's actually not really. Like, the— I think I pitched for 5 this year— no, 6. And I've had 5 out of the 6 come back as yes. And there wasn't any objections or anything because it was clear in what I was saying this was definitely a better solution for them. So I think it was a mindset shift. Probably in 2024, had a good year, like I did $768K, but I was like, well, there were so many roles I look back on over that year that I'm like, that was exclusive, that went on hold. So I put a lot of work into that and then it went on hold. And it was like looking at things, like analyzing my business and being like, well, if I had worked on that retained, that wouldn't, that wouldn't have happened. And all the work that I would have done wouldn't have just gone by there.

Because up until this point you've worked many contingent.

Yeah. Oh well, manifesting 100%. Um, look, it doesn't— it's obviously not going to be suitable for every client, right? So we would love to be 100% retained, but we have to be flexible with the people that we work with. And I think it's just about being able to differentiate your service levels. Because maybe what one client wants— and not saying that I would work with them— but some clients don't want you to do a full market map. They just want a few grand candidates. They don't want the best of the best, and they don't really care that you're going out and finding them the top, top talent in the market. Probably don't want to work with them anyway. But those ones that do, like, they can understand how retained is better because you, you explain it to them, like, in layman's terms. This is what we're going to do. This is what you're going to achieve at the end. And like, just guiding them, guiding them through the the process and showing them how being a partner is going to be a better outcome for them. So I've placed all 4 of the retainers that I've worked this year, and the 5th one that Ben is working was a director-level role that we got on for him. Um, he's, you know, got final stages locked in. And also, just to note, on retained, everybody thinks it's all senior hires, and it's actually not, because all 4 of the roles I've recruited this year via retainers were all brand management level. So that's like mid-level role. You don't have to be pitching just CEO work as retainers or C-suite roles or GM roles. Um, because you know the difference in what the service is and how it's going to add value to the client. So as an example, um, we, we explain to our clients, right, we work in a retained way because you're telling me that this role is niche, it's difficult to fill, um, the location is really challenging. So in order for me to really invest my time in this, I need some financial commitment from you because otherwise I can't do it, it's too risky for me. And I explained to them what I'm going to do with a deposit paid up— I don't want to say the word upfront, but, uh, with a deposit, this is what it's going to allow me to do. And be really truthful and honest and transparent with them about what the process looks like. And I've had success in it. And it was honestly, like, for the clients that came to me about these roles, it was no-brainer for them to go retain because I explained it and how we ended up, like, with the candidates that we did. And look, one of the roles took 4 months, but I had completely mapped out the market with, like, 200 candidates I'd reached out to. And it honestly, if I had worked that contingent, I could have walked away from it after the third candidate didn't get through, I could have just gone, I know, let's just talk about—

because sometimes people maybe overthink this because I've had a lot of these conversations. What— and you might make it like bespoke, still figuring this out, but what typically would you say are like the deliverables if we work in that way that might be a bit different? They're going to get your commitment, they're going to get your passion, energy, you know, that, that's a given, your expertise, all of that. Is it the weekly sync call? Is it the, the market map that they're gonna get? Like, what are just some of the deliverables?

Well, I I think when we speak to clients about retain as well, one of the things that we try to encourage them to understand is like a recruiter who's a contingent recruiter is working on maybe 10 roles at a given time and they grade them so based on the likelihood of being successful. And we're like, the grading doesn't come into the equation here. You are our priority. So every day we come in, like, we only would take on like 2 to 3 retainers at a time, right? Because I don't want to spread myself too thin. But the point is that you are absolutely our priority. We have our weekly steering calls where we'll go through the week that we've had of sourcing, and what I do is I complete an Excel spreadsheet where I actually capture all of the candidates that I've spoken to, um, even the ones I haven't spoken to, so they can see how many people we've reached out to. And we actually— we also collect like live salary data, we collect, um, their perception of them in the market, you know, if people are applying, great, if they're not, why. So then it gives us the opportunity to go back and re-steer the search and kind of potentially requalify the role. Doing that contingent, you probably actually don't have that much time because it's so risky to work in that way. Like, this client that I place these roles with, I was checking my emails off— this is bad, but I was, you know, checking my emails at 5 AM. I'd reply to him at 5:30. I'd have a call with him at 7 AM if, if he needed me. You know, at night it would be an 8 o'clock call if there was something that needed to be done. So like, you shouldn't work like that contingent because you're not guaranteed you're going to get a placement. So it's that extra level, it's the elevation, it's It's the knowing that they can call you whenever they need to. It's the commitment that they have from you. It's the communication. It's the feedback. It's the quality of candidates. Most importantly, when you work retained, you're not scraping at the barrel, you know, to get a candidate over in a day because there's 2 or 3 other agencies working on it. It gives you time to fully map the market and go, okay, based on the functional and the behavioral competencies, who's the best candidate for the role? It saves them time. It saves them a bad hire. Um, it mitigates that risk. Like, It's way— it's a way better option.

You share all of that information with them, that spreadsheet?

Yeah.

They keep it?

No.

No, they don't.

I share it on my screen. Okay. Well, look, if they really wanted it, it's just something to consider. We wouldn't know.

Some recruiters do that. That's almost like a bit of a part of the product. It's just something to consider.

We wouldn't put their surname on there though, because then— I mean, I trust all the clients that I work with, right? But let's just say, for example, I did that, and then in a year, a year's time, what if we don't work together again? Oh, they'll just pull up my whole spreadsheet of all the candidates that I did that with. For some people, true, because You're like talent, um, pipeline. Yeah, true.

Yeah. And then do you— then, then is it like the rest of the payment on, um, uh, like contract signed?

It depends on what way the client wants to work. Um, so you can do— we do usually a third upfront, and then the— I hate saying that word— a third deposit. Deposit.

It feels different, doesn't it?

Yeah, I just don't like it. Like, it just makes it sound so— deposit, commitment. Yeah. Um, engagement fee. So one-third in initially and then the final on the placement of the candidate. So when they start, the invoice is sent on that day. They have the standard payment terms, what, 28, 30 days. And then again, for this other role that we're recruiting, um, the director role that my colleague Ben is, it's actually been 3 milestones. So it's been like shortlist. Yeah, yep. So we'd gone out in person to deliver the shortlist to the client, go through all the CVs. We actually had them printed out, every CV, and bind it for them so they could have a look through it in person, take notes. So that was a third, that was obviously charged on that day, and then one final payment on commencement.

And then like, just curious, have you found also, because you were talking about all those benefits there, have you also found, because you've always worked in a different way, yep, when you are going to market, you can really go into market confidently with the people that are in roles, passives, yep. And that is literally part of your pitch, right? It's like they've retained us, yep, 100%, yeah.

The how committed this client is, they've actually retained they've paid us a deposit to start working this role. So if you're working senior hires, then you're not going to have the chance where in 2, 3 weeks down the line they go, oh, sorry, we've had an internal candidate. You can imagine how frustrating that would be for someone who's a GM, who's in a job, who's trying to do all that, and then go through an interview process to then have an internal candidate. And look, don't get me wrong, internal candidates come into the process, but they come in through us, and everybody has the same candidate experience so that that doesn't happen. Does that make sense? So one, we'll, we'll get them into our process. So internal candidates will very much be there, but it's not like they're biased because they're internal and we're just working this exclusively.

So if you hire the internal candidate, you wouldn't get the other part of the— um, have you had that yet?

Yeah, so we have one client where there is a 30% discount on the final placement. So essentially you don't pay the last one.

Yeah. Um, internally. Yeah, but then sometimes that has tripped people up.

Yeah, the 4— the other 4 roles I've had this year, that hasn't even come up as part of the conversation. And clients have said to me, can you reach out to this person, like, on top of that? So some people will request it, some people won't. But I think what we also try to encourage our clients to do is, before you even engage us, please, like, actually go and look at the internal candidates first and make sure that they are not able to do this role before you engage us in a process. So actually go and explore your internal candidates first. Go and get your referrals off everybody you need to, and you know, if you're not happy, come to us then. So we've walked away from roles like that this year already where that's been a conversation, and it's like, well, go and see if the people that you have internally first will be suitable.

If not, yeah, it's good advice to give, and come to us.

We don't want to just take all your money. I know that's a perception that recruiters do, but we don't. Like, if you can feel it internally, do.

So, so what, like, really now, like, we're in, we're in the, we're in the trenches. Yeah, we're nearly— is it January to December you work?

Yep.

So yeah, we're nearly hot, like, getting to H1.

I know, it's crazy.

So like, what, just curious to hear, like, what's really top of mind? I mean, you're, you're tracking really well here. Like, is there anything— obviously you've really introduced the retain work. I think what I've just loved to see here is just like, you, you really, you really have avoided complacency, like, the way that you're working Yeah, the different types of roles. Like, I really respect that, that you've really kept pushing because, yeah, like, you could very easily just stayed in filling the same type of role, being average. Yeah, I love it. So like, I really— so like, I know this would be top of mind. So obviously you've introduced— now you can probably be more confident with your prediction of where you're going to end up because you've added this, this way of working. You know, you've nearly done 20 placements already. Like, you know, last year you did 25. $500,000 and it was nearly $800,000. So, and your average fees there and thereabouts. So like, what's really top of mind here in terms of what are you really staying close to, committed to, focused on to make sure that we have, you know, me and you catch up in 6 or so months' time and you've broken that million again?

Okay, well, number one, Maeve will laugh at this, but she has Operation Get iFarm Famous. So that's our number one goal for 2025. Um, obviously me getting to the million is really important.

So, um, what do you mean by that first one, like the brand and stuff.

Yeah, so Operation Get iFarm Famous, here we are. Yeah, so, um, that's our number one goal for this year. And we started the year with our trainer from the UK came over, and it was like, like we said, we'd never done any retain before. I was kind of in that mindset that I wanted to anyway, um, and it was a goal of our business had to be 25% retained. I'm sitting at 30% now, um, I'd like to maintain 30% of my business being retained this year, and same with Maeve. And Orla is my new hire on the team, so I want to get her up to scratch and really get her building her confidence, um, and billing, of course. And later on in the year, we'll start doing retain with, with Orla as well. But the wider team, I actually really want to build the confidence within our whole ANZ business that retained is the right option, and you should be explaining to your clients why. So I'm trying to take them all on the journey, um, and give some examples of how it's worked. And, you know, often I'll say to them, oh guys, look, see what's happened with this process? I'm so glad I went retained there because as like giving them the confidence to do so. So that's definitely a big one for us. What other goals do I have for work?

Well, what do you think, like what are you really staying front of mind to make sure that you give yourself the best chance of—

Getting to where I am.

Yeah, breaking that, because you know, when we spoke, you said it with real confidence, like I'm on track, I'm now going to hit again this year. So I just want to hear like what are you really staying laser focused on? Obviously we've mentioned retain, building your brand, you've been consistent with that, that's obviously helping.

Um, so new business target, so like new clients that we've not worked with before. So BD, of course, right? That's front and center for me always. Um, but really continuing to build a relationship and continue growing with the partners that we have and really solidifying us as the absolute only reason or only recruiter that they would go to. Um, and it being no-brainer and cross-selling that as well. So not just me, I love to cross-sell, so I love to be able to open up different doors for, you know, everyone within iPharm ANZ, but even globally. So I'll often say like, oh, we're working with this client here in Australia, you know, try and build out to that too. So really continuing to grow our, um, current accounts. So that's obviously how I'm going to get to the million dollars, by, you know, keep doing what I'm doing with the accounts that we have at the moment. But then I have a new business target. I think I wanted to do 25% new clients this year, and I've had 3— no, more, definitely had more than that. But I think in the last quarter, retained, right, has been the newer clients. Like, the 2 new companies that I've worked with this year have 4 roles have been retained. Yeah, and one, one of the other retainers was with an established client that we worked with many years ago. So yeah, so it's just continuing to build on the accounts that we have and then new ones which are in the works. They're not going to be new accounts to me because I've been probably BDing them for the last 6 years. But yeah, that's where I'm at.

And like, just to round us out then, like, I feel like there's a lot of like nature going on here with you, but I want to ask in terms of if anyone, you know, if someone's listening to this, they're probably ambitious they have big goals. Some people may have hit those goals. So I just want to sort of get your take really on like what advice would you give someone who like did achieve those big goals, top performer, whatever. Yeah, what would your advice be to that person to make sure that they— it isn't just a fluke and it isn't just that one year and they maintain that high performance? Because you're, you're already back on this come up again and you're, you're evolving, you're, you're, you keep going. I do feel like like there's quite a bit of nature going on there in terms, like you said, your fear of average and these things. But like, what would the advice be? Because I know that that will be a big struggle, and there will be a lot of people listening that probably fit that.

Um, I like— it's classic, don't take your foot off the gas. Don't ever think that you're the best recruiter ever, because there's always going to be new me people, like people like me 6 years ago coming out of the woodwork, trainee recruiters that are probably going to take business from me in the future. That's what I've done with a lot of the competitors in my space. So I think definitely don't just always think you're the best and think that your clients are only ever going to use you exclusively. You should be speaking to your clients and getting feedback and trying to understand, you know, have you been approached by other recruiters? What have they been saying to you? And like, not bashing the other recruiters in this space, by the way, but just like being mindful of the fact that you are not going to always be the best and you are not always going to be the only recruiter that's engaging with your clients. So I think you need to make sure that you stay on top of them. Um, and as you grow and you get new, new accounts on, like, making sure that you're farming the other accounts you have for sure. Um, and it's the same with the candidates too. Keep just like speaking to as many people as possible, keeping the people that are out of work, giving them advice, giving them tips, keeping in touch with them, those more senior hires. Um, what else? Yeah, just don't take your foot off the gas. I mean, also you have to have that internal drive though, right? And I just naturally have that because I love what I do. So like maybe if you're in an industry that you've done a million dollars in, maybe it's time to sort of sit and reflect and be like, right, if I got here. Do I love it enough to keep doing that in this industry, or, you know, do I have a different passion? Like, I think it's really easy for me to stay in this space because I love it, and so naturally I will always have the drive and always have the desire to have my foot on the gas because I love it. So don't know.

Yeah, absolutely love your passion, energy. I know a lot of other people will. Like, I can honestly just really— I think I said to you when I first met you, you can really see why you've been successful. Like, I do really respect it, but I think what I've learned here today is just really to the— like, how hard you've worked. But what I've said a few times, but I really love, like, what that advice that you've just given there, you're like living and breathing that, you know. You're, you're trying to push your desk. You've really viewed it as a business. How can I improve it? How can I work on more senior roles? How can I actually break through that limiting belief maybe of like, no, I can't work quite retained. And I just really respect that. So, um, thank you so much for joining me.

It was very fun.