Tom Enefer- Billing over £200K in year one and dealing with the pressure to increase his performance

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm in London. I'm joined by Tom Ennefer, who works for a business called Cobalt Recruitment, who specialize in real estate and construction. And Tom's worked at this business for just over 5 years, is now a managing consultant managing a team of 4.

Great.

Thank you for joining me.

A pleasure. Thanks, John.

Um, so yeah, I think I actually got, um, a message not too long ago around Hishem, you always have tech recruiters on, when you're going to have people that are in the sort of construction real estate market? Because it's however biggest— one of the biggest markets in the UK. Or how have you not had anyone on? Um, so I'm excited to unpack your journey. I mean, you've worked at one recruitment agency for just one. Yeah, just one, um, for 5 and a bit years.

Yeah.

And just to sort of frame it up before we dive into sort of your story, have you— so has it been the typical route of joining as a trainee or consultant and sort of climb the ranks gradually?

Totally like that. Joined on a grad scheme. Yeah, it was pretty long grad scheme, it was 12 weeks.

Okay.

But it was good. You basically spent 2 weeks on each of our desks. Ah. And at the end of it, you know, 5 or 6 desks, at the end of it you, you pick the one you gravitated towards most and they kind of pick you too. And it ends up working quite well because you don't want to have, you know, a round peg in a square hole.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

We don't quite do it like that anymore just because 3 months is a long time before you, you start billing, you know what I mean? Uh, which is fair enough, but it worked well for me because I genuinely couldn't decide between different areas. And I'll be honest, I knew nothing about real estate. Yeah. So it gave me a good bit of insight.

So how, um, as I was saying before, where I always like to start, how did you end up on a grad scheme at Cobra as a recruiter? Because I'm sure you didn't—

that was not the plan when you went to uni, right? Yeah, no, no. So at uni I did philosophy. Wow. Uh, yeah, and unless you, you live in ancient Greece, it doesn't lead to any— like, it doesn't lead to any obvious careers. So I finished my degree, and I finished it early. I finished it my third year in March because it was all coursework, and I just banged up the coursework all at once. So I had like 3 months of spare time before graduating.

Where did you go?

Uni? Brookes. Okay, Oxford Brookes. Yeah. And I just had a good few months of able to look for a job, uh, and I made it my full-time job looking for a job. Yeah, seriously, that always helps something.

It's like actually all the thing you're focusing on.

So I was back in Eastbourne with my family house, and I was just applying for every job under the sun, uh, like in the same half hour I'd applied to be a web designer and then a lawyer. Like, I was applying for everything. I was, I was on like page 18 of indeed.com and I had like 11 different types of covering letters I was using.

Oh wow.

I'd made it a full-time job. I couldn't stand the thought of graduating and then having like nothing. That would be like unthinkable. I was applying for everything, and when you apply for everything, you come across recruitment a lot because there's a lot of jobs in recruitment. And I was trying to find a job in Eastbourne to begin with because I like the idea.

Not much opportunity there.

No, honestly, nothing. Like, you either a solicitor or there's like— there's not much. Like, I was applying to for jobs at Eastbourne Council.

Oh my God, it was like so boring.

But I thought it was amazing. It was like, you're going to pay you £12K and you're going to like do our minutes at the meeting. And I was looking at that and thinking that it quality. Honestly, I just didn't know any different. I'd apply to be like a web designer, like I said before, knowing nothing about it, obviously not getting the job. And then I broadened it to Brighton. Yeah, because you're from Eastbourne, right?

Yeah.

And Brighton is—

Brighton opens up a lot.

Yeah, it's like Eastbourne on steroids. Yeah, I mean, and there was a lot more going on in Brighton. And I got some interviews and I started interviewing in recruitment firms, not getting the jobs. Yeah, because I wasn't interviewing very well. Yeah, like I wasn't good at the questions, and some of the questions are pretty stupid actually.

Did you interview at Cobalt in Brighton?

No, no, no, no, I did, I did.

I got an interview when I was applying for recruitment jobs. I applied for Cobalt.

Yeah, yeah. And you got an interview?

Yeah, I had a phone interview. I can't remember the chat.

Someone called Ollie?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He actually helped me out a lot. Oh yeah, because when I was interviewing, it was a phone interview, and he was like, look, I do really like your energy, mate, but you're just speaking way too quickly. And like, are you— that really helped me because I was like, right, I need to just relax.

Oh, I still struggle with that. That's good advice, isn't it?

Yeah. So, so you ended up interviewing a number of Brighton recruitment firms?

Yeah, and London, and London, because I started getting— it started getting to like May, really. I was like, I need to get a job next month. Yeah, because my parents are really supportive, but they weren't just going to start bankrolling me to live in their house. So I need to get a job next month.

I wouldn't want that though, personally, either.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's good, it's good. Um, So I start, I apply for Cobalt in Brighton and they interview me in the London office. The rationale being that I do like a grad scheme there and then I might relocate to Brighton. But then as I started at Cobalt and I think it was me and them, I think Chris, our MD, got me in the room like 8 weeks in and was like, Tom, we don't really want you to go to Brighton.

Really?

Because Brighton at that time was much more construction-led and I'm actually more real estate, like investment. And it was like an office of 4. That office is now disbanded. Yeah, we've got one really good guy in Brighton and he comes up and he does infrastructure. But it wasn't like a huge opportunity there. And I had already in like a few weeks fallen in love with London.

Nice.

So it was a bit like, you know what, I'm probably going to stay here now.

Why did you pick Cobalt? Did you have other opportunities, or were they the ones that—

The blunt answer is they were the only ones that offered me, really, at the time, knowing nothing. I'm really glad I did in hindsight, but I'd be lying if I was like there was something. Yeah, like I didn't get any other jobs. They did the best interview though. I had other interviews and it was— I wasn't very good, but also they asked me questions like, "If you only had £10, what would you invest in?" And I was like, "A, you don't need to know that at all. B, if you only have £10, you need urgent help. You shouldn't be investing that money, right? You're gonna be destitute and homeless. You need to like get help with that little bit of money, like buy a lot of canned food." And I'd have to work my way through this absurd answer about what I'd do if I only had a tenner. And I just don't think that way. And I came up with this horrible answer, one of the interviews, about how I'd buy like tons of ice cream, put it in cool boxes, go to the beach and sell that ice cream on site to people that are really hot and thirsty at the beach.

Oh wow.

Um, which made no sense, which made no sense because ice cream, even, even cheap ice cream, is like what, like £1.20 a tub? I don't know how much these cool boxes are going to cost. There's going to have to be people helping me, so I'm operating at a loss already. You know, it wasn't, it wasn't going to work.

You do any of those horrible assessment centers?

No. Well, here's my point. Cobalt had one of those horrible assessment centers, really, but I actively prefer that 'Cause I'd rather you get me in a room and we do a bunch of exercises that are actually designed around the job than you get me in the room and ask me a bunch of like Googled entrepreneurial questions that mean nothing about what I do as a tenor that had nothing to do with recruitment. Cobalt, it was a full day of interviews and you could not hide. If you were bad, if you weren't made for it, they are gonna find you.

You're gonna get found out.

And we had to do like these role plays that at the time just felt really quite grueling. Um, but then the— if— and I think it was 12 of us, and they were going to hire 4 from 12. So I mean, we're in this boardroom, and like Tim, the founder, is talking to us. It's really impressive. We had an amazing office in Soho Square. I was kind of sold, right? They were the only people that offered me, but I was kind of sold. Yeah, I really liked it. And it was like role plays in the morning, then we do like a written exam in like the— in like 11 o'clock, like we're going to write adverts. They were marked.

Yeah, I know, I did that for one of mine. Yeah, right, job ad.

And then in the afternoon there'd be a role play where Chris, our MD, would sit us in a room and be like, look guys, what's the worst job you ever had? And I used to work at the Grand Hotel in Eastbourne.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. And he was quite cruel. He was like, okay, Tom, sell me that job, knowing I hated it. And I have to find a way to sell it. And I still think that's the best thing I've ever done, managing to sell that job to Chris. I don't think I've ever— I don't think I've ever engineered an answer better than that. I somehow managed to make it sound like not only was that job good and good for me to get into recruitment, but that it was like a non-brainer. Like, if you're not working at this hotel and you want to go into recruitment, you need to go to the hotel first. Like, you know, it's a no-brainer. And I managed to do it, and then they offered me, and, and literally ever since then I've just not even thought about it. Like, I've literally—

you say 5 years and it's mental because that's a longer time, mate, particularly in recruitment. Yeah, yeah, one in recruitment and also at one firm. Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I think we, we spoke about this at the, the live event. So, um, I did a bit of a sort of competition early on the event. It was like, what, what do people think the sort of average tenure is for a recruitment consultant in a business, right?

Yeah.

And it was— I always forget a bit. It was, it was, it was like 14 or 16 months, something like that.

Seriously?

That wasn't like— that isn't sort of 14 or 16 months in the industry. That was like in one company, if that makes sense, rather than 40 to 60 months in recruitment. Do you get what I mean?

So same industry, but you're moving?

Yeah.

So you're like moving sideways, diagonally?

Yeah, yeah. Or however, maybe so, to, to be in one recruitment business for 5+ years, like, that's a, that's a, that's a really great thing, basically. Yeah, in a nutshell, right?

So it is. Yeah.

So what I'm really keen to do, mate, is, is really sort of break down the, the last sort of 5 or so years. So let's start with, um, the first 12 months. I always like to speak to people a bit about this. So obviously, um, 90 of those days was the sort of grad scheme. So yeah, you was in different— you was working in different markets and doing different things. So, um, how were the sort of first 12 months overall?

They were really good, really. Yeah, yeah, they were really good. Um, in September I joined my current team full-time. It's called the general practice team. We just do surveyors and investment and asset managers, um, basically those that buy and sell buildings. And once I started on that team, it just started really, um, clicking.

Really?

Really, yeah. It was a good— it was a good start. I'd be lying if I told you it was like this grind for a year. I had a good bit of success at the start, really, um, because I think I came into a pretty good market in 2014. A lot of the messaging at the time was it's 2014, it's kind of post-credit crunch. Yeah. And we're on a bit of a bounce.

And so people were spending money, spending money.

And I'll be real with you, I was in the team that had always had the most success historically. Like, when Cobalt formed, it was a team it formed from. So I had a lot on my side and—

So you had a lot of legacy clients?

Yeah, a lot of warm clients. I had to BD a lot for sure, but I'd be lying if I told you it was like this completely ice cold desk. I had great managers and I had a lot of support and it just felt like the market was on my side. I wasn't like fighting against the current. Nice. And I empathize with that. I started in like, you know, 2017 was a tough year. The latter portion of last year was tough. There's good things about starting when it's tough, like habits you learn. I think when you have to learn fast and quick, So, for me, it clicked quite quickly.

Really?

I had a good 12 months, yeah.

What do you mean? When you say it clicked, what do you mean?

Just, it made sense. When I came to Cobalt, I was just, I was fortunate. I'd worked like odd jobs. So, I worked in Tesco during my gap year.

Okay.

And I was contracted for 12 hours, but I worked much more. And I worked at the Grand Hotel for like 2 summers for 3 months during uni, so 6 months total. And I knew the value of doing a good shift. And that's really important. Work ethic. Like, I made it my mission to do well. I wasn't sure if I would be good at this job because I didn't— you don't know, do you? And like, I wasn't actually sure if it— I would be good because I was— I come from this like English literature, philosophy type university. Like, you just don't think so, you're going to be salesy.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's what I mean. It's— you don't really— you don't strike me as a salesy person.

Not at all. And I'll be honest, like, I'm not— I am money motivated, but I'm not the kind of person that's just going to go out and buy a Rolex at all. Like, I just— I wasn't the character you'd think. And actually, Tim, our founder, said when he interviewed me, it was like, I was wobbling, Tom, to be honest, because I wasn't sure about you.

Really?

And I totally get it. I don't hold it against him at all because you wouldn't meet me and be like, that's an absolute Wolf of Wall Street type person. That's the opposite of what I am.

I don't think that's not— that's what sort of makes a good recruiter these days though. Well, that's— that would mean that you'd be great at recruitment these days, do you know what I mean?

And as cheesy as it is, I'm actually not trying to make some weird sale. I actually like to look at a building when I'm walking to work and be like, I put 60% of that company there. They came to me in 2015 when they were just starting, and now everyone that isn't a partner there, I put there. Like, that's what I like. And obviously I won't complain about the money side, but I, I really like the emotional side of it. Genuinely.

In what sense?

Just knowing that you've, you've, you've got a difficult mandate. It seems impossible or tricky, and you've, you've kind of taught a process of talking the client around a bit about what's possible, positioning it well to a candidate, particularly if it's like a niche area, and just making the two, marrying the two. And now that person's been there 3 years and it's great. Like, I like that.

It's definitely an art, isn't it?

Yeah, I think so. I think it's understated. I think, and particularly if you're in an area where you have to know a bit of knowledge around it to, to sell properly and explain it, I think honestly, I think it's, it's, it's, it's financially rewarding, but if you do it right, it's quite rewarding emotionally. Yeah, that's the part I like.

I really like that. Yeah, how, um, what I was gonna say, so any, any sort of big challenges in the first year then that comes to mind? Um, anything that you struggled with? Like, did you start billing quite quickly then?

Yeah, I did.

Really? Is it always, uh, perm?

Perm, yeah. And I've had slower years since, but like the first year, um, we did— I did 212.

Fucking hell.

Yeah, I did 212, but that doesn't include that. That's just— so that's, um, That's January 2015 to end of year.

Yeah, yeah, that's decent.

Yeah, and I did 40 in Q— in from September to the end of 2014. Really? Yeah, so I had a good start.

That's decent.

That's still— I'll be honest, that's my best still. That's still my best.

Really? Yeah, that's mental. So your, your first year in recruitment, yeah, was your best year?

It was still my best year. Hopefully it won't go down as my best year ever. In 2015— in 2016, I did 220.

Yeah.

And then 20K fell out 2 months after the year ended. So I went down. I think it was still in the figures, so I don't know if it, you know, whatever that means. But yeah, so maybe from an admin point of view I still did it, but it fell out and I had to backfill it. So it would— that would have been 200-odd. Yeah.

So that's been your best year?

It's been— it's my best.

That's crazy.

That's what I mean.

Yeah.

So it's not like it was clicking and I never looked back.

Do you think that's sort of— that can— that's always— obviously has its negatives, right? Because then it's like from year one you've had this— you'll have this expectation on your shoulder. It's like I'm a $200K+ biller.

Yeah.

Because honestly, in today's market, the conversation I've had, I put a post out not that too long ago around like, what's deemed as a good biller? And a lot of people came back to that and was like, if you're billing $200K+ in today's market, like, that's a great place to be. Yeah. If you're billing around circa $150, $180, like, as someone that's employing you, like, you've got a great person there that's that's really bringing a lot of value to the business. But if you're breaking that 200K mark, you're deemed as a good biller. So to do that in your first year, then the expectation of you—

Pressure's high.

Yeah.

Yeah, pressure's high, like honestly, and rightfully so, because like I said, I was in a good team. So it's not like they were asking too much. I was, I should have been doing that. My boss was doing more.

Was you 360 or was you—

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

From day one pretty much?

Day one, yeah, 100%, yeah.

Okay.

360.

That's crazy.

The grad scheme is great. We don't do it anymore, but that 3 months of learning all the teams, learning how like debt and equity works and all of that stuff, it helps. Like it makes you feel credible.

How important— yeah, so how did you go about— I think that's definitely a challenge for people even more experienced. Like how have you gone about like really understanding your market? Like how have you gone about doing that? Because I can imagine in your world that's— I mean, like any market, but How important is that to you?

So important.

Really?

So important. You don't get me wrong, you can overthink it, you can over-prepare calls, and like, yeah, learn, you can write them to me notes. But if you know your stuff and it comes through organically, not just the knowledge but who's in the market, so you can name-drop contacts and people you've placed here and there, it's the difference maker.

Really?

Because one thing I will say, I'm in a good team, right? It's a very saturated environment. We've got a lot of competition and there's a new competitor every day. Okay, and it's hard to stand out unless you're really good because everyone knows it's a good market. When it's a good market, it's not a secret, so people are going to try and get into that.

Yeah, yeah.

So, um, it's really good. When I got the job at Cobalt, I got it— I knew I had it like 1st of June, started 23rd of June. And it's a bit weird, I know, but I actually spent those 3 weeks learning about real estate.

That's not weird.

More people should do that. Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you said that. So I came into work, I knew nothing about real estate when I interviewed, and to the point where they were like, do you know anything? I'm not gonna lie, guys, I had a really direct approach to interviews, I'll be completely honest. Yeah, that's why I wasn't getting jobs, because I'd be like, I don't know what to do with a tenner, you know what I mean? And, and I don't know anything about property, and I don't really know why I'm here. I'm here because I was on page 13 of indeed.com. Yeah, and I've applied for the other pages now. Yeah, so I'd have a real straightforward approach, so I just tell it how it is. And but when I actually got the job and I knew, I was like, I've just got to make this work now. I'm either going to make it work. Yeah, it'll be like—

so you really focused in, just put—

yeah, yeah, I really— I was like, I'm gonna make this my mission to make this work.

Really? Yeah. So, um, just quickly, just around that off, I think, where— so where did you start? Like, where did you start to know more about the market you're going to recruit for? Is it just a simple Google job, start learning different job titles, what do they do? Yeah, just get some real core knowledge.

Yeah, really cool.

How— so how, how has that helped? How has that actually helped you? And why should people do that if they haven't or don't do that?

Yeah, well, in a really basic sense, you just get the breadth of what industry you're in. So I think, I think it helps you contextualize what you're doing. I know that if I'm recruiting for an asset manager, I just— I knew coming into Cobalt, not as much as I do now, but I kind of knew where they fit in the pyramid of roles. So if I have that role on, I know whether I'm being sincere in how I'm positioning it or not. Yeah. And there's nothing worse than someone who has a blatantly bad role— no offense, I mean, there are bad roles out there, aren't there— and I can hear that, I can overhear them trying to make out as like this brilliant role.

Yeah, yeah.

Much better to say, look, let's be honest, this is a stepping stone role. I'll be real with you, it's a stepping stone role. 'But I reckon, and I believe this, it can get you here if you stick it out for 2 years and do a good job.' Then make out that this role is going to be like the be-all and end-all. That's not how it works. And I just like to hear people be honest. And knowing about my industry coming into it let me feel like I was confident and honest, because actual confidence comes a lot later. Yeah, like a fake it till you make it type thing. Yeah, yeah. So you've got to talk like you know what you're saying a bit sooner than you will know.

Yeah, yeah. Like, fully know.

Yeah, you gotta, you gotta just take some chances. And I say to people a lot, like, you're trying to be too perfect. You're trying to, like, you're making all these notes about this client, but if you just give them a call, tell them how it is, and be honest and show a bit of knowledge, then that counts for more. It will feel like a more human interaction. And I even go further, I say, why don't you give yourself permission to make a bad call? Let your first call be bad, but just get on the phone, get a bit of momentum, and then it will come. But you can spend too long, like trying to get it all. So I'm not advocating for people to spend weeks on it. I spent 3 weeks, then I learned in the job a lot. Yeah, by calling. That's the best way of learning. Yeah, but I didn't like coming in totally blind, so I spent energy getting it right.

Yeah, I think also it's come up quite a lot, but to have the sort of humility and to communicate the humility to the people that you're speaking to, to say, look, can you just explain that bit again? Because I don't quite— when people like that, right? And that's, that's come up quite a lot.

I love that. And actually, I'm lucky because recruitment and real estate, where we recruit into, it is a very people industry. People frankly love to talk about themselves.

Exactly.

So I actually say to people a lot, like, just like you just said, yes, tell them where your knowledge ends and begins and just let them talk about their lives. Most people love it. The best part is the people that love doing it are the ones that are most senior, like, yeah, for 20 years, because they, they're probably working from home, they're probably with their kids anyway, and it's like they can just have a good chat with you and you learn from them. And the biggest shock was that people just actually like to speak to you. You know, some people don't know us, definitely not everyone, but some people do. And that's when you actually learn. As much as you might go on your computer and read the theory, that's when you're going to learn.

So, um, doing those sort of figures early on, yeah, was you around big billers? Like, was you around many people that were doing more than that? Yeah, yeah, really.

The most important part is my boss was doing more than that, really. And I still think if you— to be a really good boss, and it's hard, don't get me wrong, you've got to lead from the front. Yeah, because if I'm going to listen to you and trust you, you need to, frankly, you need to be a big biller, right? Because otherwise it's, it's a tricky scenario. And I feel that burden a lot now that I manage. I need to be up there with them. I need to be in the top 5. I need to be billing well because they're going to trust you and, and learn faster from you if you have that quality.

So it builds that credibility, doesn't it, when you give me advice?

And I definitely got into a team with that culture where my boss billed really well and her boss, the head of the team, billing outstandingly well, and it just felt like there wasn't—

what sort of figures were they billing roughly?

So I think, so let's— so the, the, the lady who managed me, like 250 if not more. I remember, I remember actually when I joined her team in September, her Q4— my Q4 was 40, her Q4 was 100.

Wow.

And that amazed me, like doing 100K quarters, just incredible. And then our, our, the, the head of the team, he— I think he was literally like a 350, 400K biller.

How much of an impact do you think that had? Because I, I think this has come up a lot, and I think I think, like, again, you may not be aware of this because obviously you've been in the same business, but I think thinking about how much of an impact do you think it had that being around those people, seeing those sort of numbers, that made it realistic and achievable from the get?

It's absolutely huge.

Yeah.

Because 212, it didn't feel unachievable ever in that year. No one was like, take it easy, you're 6 months in. It felt, it actually kind of felt like you need, you know, make hay while the sun shines. I got told a lot like, this isn't normal, we're in a good market right now. And you really ought to be at that level. And I was around people, so I think, you know, I was head— the head of the team, then my boss, then me. We would have been like the— for a couple of years would have been the top 3 billers, um, in that team at least. In the company there were some other people, but generally speaking at Cobalt, if you're doing kind of 200, you're doing really well. It sounds like that's roughly— yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think it was just interesting that there'll be a lot of people listening that then there may not be anyone in their office doing 200K, like Yeah, yeah. And it's in— because it's come up a couple of times where if you're not around people doing those sorts of figures, then that's just— and you're like constantly for the last 3 years you build 150, 180, it's like, nah, 200K, it's just— I just can't do it. But when you're then— but you, yeah, but obviously you've been straight in there and you've been around people that—

here's the standard, do you know what I mean?

Yeah. So I think that, that's— that must have definitely— may or may not have realized a bit. It's like, now it's— why would that not be realistic when there's people around me?

Oh yeah, more. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it was, it was great, honestly.

Okay, so when— so year 2, would you very much just obviously still billing at that point, right?

Well, in year 2 I start managing.

Really?

Yeah.

So did you want to manage?

No. What happened is the head of the team, the head of— head of— he left. Okay. He left like late summer, early winter, which created a small vacuum in the team.

Yeah.

Where my boss stepped up to be the head of, and then suddenly— and she was taking over some stuff— suddenly we had a few people that weren't being managed. And I picked up one of those to manage.

Just one person?

Yeah, in September maybe.

Okay.

And ever since I've been managing, very quickly I had a second person, a third, then a fourth.

So how long have you been managing 4 people?

So I've been managing 4 people about 3 years. Okay, I think. Yeah.

Um, yeah, so pretty much, yeah, nearly the whole time.

Pretty much.

Yeah. Since you start after that first year?

Yeah. So that first year was the first time I was I was like a solo self-motivated fella. The other times I've been trying to, to retain that and lead from the front while also trying to manage and pass on things when I can and create a desk, an actual self-contained desk. Um, so my internal rationale is not an excuse to— was like, I honestly think it was in hindsight quite easy if you're only thinking about yourself every day. Oh yeah, for sure, to come in and do that. What's more challenging is getting to those numbers or in that territory, but also being selfless and passing on roles. Not totally selfless because you should, should still be financially better for you to do that. But frankly, it isn't to begin with. You are making a small cut. And just having, just doing that. And, and, you know, I haven't, I haven't billed 212 since. Like I said, 200 last year. And the year after that, 2017, was a really tough year. That's probably my lowest, really. That's when I first moved to like managing 4 people. Ah, that was so— that was really challenging, really. That's my main bit of advice for people. Not really advice, but something to just tell people about is that when you manage 1 or 2 in recruitment, I think you can still retain a good daily pattern with your own work. When it's 4, it's a— it's genuinely 2 jobs. It's like you're working 2 jobs. And everyone I've seen at this company do that has— has, and me included, you take a bit of a hit in billings.

How do you deal with that?

It was hard. Not well, really. Didn't deal with it well.

Um, when you say you weren't doing it well, what do you mean?

Um, it was just— 2017 was really tough. It was, it was just like adapting to the intensity of targets are still there, although Cobalt are nice, but it's like you've, you've got to be brutally honest with yourself. For me, it was about looking at things and being like, when a deal falls out or something, you know, it's about being brutally honest with yourself. It's like, how much of that was my fault? Some things can't be controlled. If someone gets countered 25K because that business can't lose, I'm gonna get a counter offer. What I found is that if you're real with yourself, most of the time it is something in there is your fault.

So we wouldn't look at— look in the mirror, how could I have done that better?

Yeah.

Did I do everything I possibly could?

Often you've got— if you're honest, you could have done something better. And that, weirdly, is a good thing.

Yeah, for sure.

Because you can actually work on that. It's hard when you're like, I can't think of— like, it just got countered 20K. I would also stay if my salary went from 80 to 105.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, but it's better. So I deal with it by taking a bit of time, honestly, just to, just to not think. And then I really think, and I'm like, I'm a bit brutal. I'm like, what could I have done differently? And I want there to be something I could have done. And then I'm like, right, I'm not doing that again. And then I generally improve, right?

Did you think about quitting?

Uh, I don't think so. Not in 2017, no. I, I don't think— no matter how bad it got, I, I just really felt like I wanted to make it work. Like, I was really— I remember, like, and I turned it around. So I think, I think literally in August 2017, I was on maybe 90K.

Yeah.

Which is so much lower than I've ever been on before. And that year I still did like 171. Yeah. So I had a huge— yeah, I had a cure. I was doing all this.

How do you think you got through that? Because a lot, so a lot, a lot of people messaged me.

Yeah.

Let's just think about some of the things maybe. So what— that's one, one of the things. So yeah, so to give you context, a lot of people messaged me and it's 'Hey, Hishem, really struggling with this,' or, 'I'd love you to speak to people about how they push through that period,' blah, blah, blah. And this is clearly a tough period that you had. So I'm keen to stay on it. So something that you became more and more comfortable with was when things started to not go your way, right, Tom, what could I have done better?

Self-reflection.

Self-reflection. So that's something that you definitely did. But when you was in, you said August, so you was in August, you said, 'Oh yeah, August, 90K. Okay, right, so if I don't pick this up,' like, what were some of the things that, you think you started to do, or you made part of your daily patterns, or whatever, that enabled you to shift it?

I did something a little bit mental, is I actually did this thing where I pretended like I was in a documentary and there was a camera crew following me, and I was— and it was like, can this guy save his year? That was a documentary, really. And I was like, what would I do if I was like part of a TV show where I had to make it work and I was being screwed and I was being scrutinized?

Well, you visualize this. Yeah, like, what would you do?

Like, you see these things all the time, like like these documentaries where someone's in like a really adverse situation and you follow them as they turn it around. And I was like, if I put myself in that context, imagine if I was being scrutinized by like dozens of people watching my every word and it was like, watch my reaction, listen to every word. And it was like, here's the journey to turn it around. And I actually pretended I was on like that kind of thing. And it forced me to be like, is what I'm currently doing, if I'm doing what I'm doing now, would I actually be proud of it if I had like a crew following me around? Like, am I actually right now just wasting time and energy on a role I know I can't fill? And I just started holding myself to this standard where I was like, I'm gonna raise my game, like, in this really mental way.

But where did that come from?

I heard about— I heard it, I think it was on the Joe Rogan podcast even.

Really?

Like, he made this comment about— he was talking to this fitness guy about how he did it, and he was just like, yeah, I just I, I just put myself in a scenario where it was like everything I do has to be towards this one goal. Yeah, everything I do is towards this one goal. And if it isn't, how would I feel if I was actually in a scenario where I'm being scrutinized for it? Because it's quite easy to get away with things in recruitment, honestly. Even if you, even if you're in an environment where you're hard pinned on stats, you can really comfortably, if you don't want to be successful, you can, you can comfortably just take shortcuts. And I was not interested. Like, how can I make it so I turned this around. And the final thing I did was— I, I might sound a bit weird, but I actually woke up and realized there's a lot more in the world than recruitment. And I found, I found ways to escape. Because certainly in that first year, 2015, 2016, I was really obsessed.

Really?

Yeah, really. I was missing tube stops thinking about, like, coming into work, thinking about, like, you know, like, I was obsessed.

Like, if deals are going to come in.

Yeah, I was, I was really— I was very young, new to London, there wasn't a lot going on in my life.

Yeah.

And more has happened since. Now I just think there's a lot of value in switching off emails at the weekend and just forgetting about it and just watching the football or something.

Gave you a bit more clarity when you are here.

Yeah. So then when you are in, it might feel like you're, you're skipping on work, but when you are in, you have a totally fresh perspective. And now suddenly something that was eluding you on the Friday, because you've actually switched off, you come in and it's like, no, I, I kind of get what to do now. Because you had that break.

So when you, when you had that sort of, um, yeah, that sort of mindset switch on raising your game standards, what were some of the things that you started implementing, or some of the things that you started to realize you're like, wow, I could definitely do that better, or you made some sort of tweaks or changes that had a good impact?

I had this problem in 2017 where I had like 390 interviews, like first interviews, which is really high, but I was just working roles where they would interview and then it wouldn't really go anywhere.

Yeah.

Um, I was working with lots of these like investment practices that were quite small and boutiquey, and they'd have like impossible standards. They'd meet everyone under the sun and then no one would be good enough. So a bit of info on that.

But you was getting interviews?

Yeah, so it was a weird one, and, and I think rightly so. But the way we treat things here is we look at interviews hard, like, yeah, as a metric, we look at interviews.

And so on the face of it, that looked like a—

I'm doing well, I'm smashing it. I got like— I remember I had like the most, like the third most interviews in the company.

319 interviews?

I don't think it was that much.

It was like—

it was like— it was a lot. It was a lot. I think it was over 300. I have to see. I think it It was a lot.

Yeah. So a typical metric that led, that meant, that gave you the best possible chance of earning the figures you did.

Yeah.

You, what you realized there?

I was in the beginning, I realized it was not worthless, but I realized that it was harming my success.

Wasn't as valuable as you thought.

No, because I was getting interviews in the wrong places. I know that sounds really weird, but, and I started being brutal with my time, and I started, and a few things happened at once. The people I was managing started becoming more self-sufficient, which is good. Okay, so I put 9 months into trying to make them really good, and it was starting to really work. One of the ladies I managed was the highest billing non-starter in 2017.

Oh wow.

The other guy I managed, who I took over when that chap left I mentioned at the start, the first person I managed in September 2015, he did 190 that year. Oh wow. So the pe— so it's starting to work. I had like a slow year as I was training and giving clients, doing that, and then when it clicked and they start billing, it almost helped. And at the same time, I became more realistic with the little time I had to do my own billing. So I was like, I can keep getting into these places where you have to be perfect to get the job, or I can work positions which on the face of it seem different and, and slightly, you know, I don't know, like, you don't want to say worse, but sometimes positions that seem less attractive and more stepping stone roles, but actually they're ready to hire and it's urgent. And that was the main mentality switch, really. Yeah, honestly. And, and, and then, and that was enough to— it was a bit of both. And then I kind of switched it around. I just had a good coupon.

That's really interesting. So, and then anything around a few things that switched around? You really valuing your time? I think that's such a really interesting insight because I think a lot of people— so do you do the majority of your stuff contingent?

Yeah, yeah. So that's the retainers.

Yeah. So that's the thing, right? So it's like, again, there's so many recruiters listening right now that the majority of the work they do, they're not getting paid for, right?

Yeah.

So like, was there anything else that you become really strict of your time on? Do you know what I mean? Was it the— I don't know, you had really strict, um, things in your diary where like you had to do certain things at certain times, or you recognized that clients had to sort of hit a certain thing for you to be like, yeah, this is a job I'm going to work? I don't know. Then was there anything else on that?

Not really, because I— oh, I've always approached it like that. Oh, even when I wasn't performing top tier. I've always been like, can I—

you valued your time?

Yeah, I was— I value my time, but also I'm a big believer— I'm a big hater of like 8 AM, 8 PM recruitment firms. Yeah, yeah. I just think when you have a time schedule like that, I think I work better in like a smaller window when I have an urgency to it and I'm like, I need to get this done. That's when I produce some of the best things I do. I think if you have like an endless amount of time to sit there, patter around, and do like the odd call because the day is 12 hours long, that just harms like the ability of the culture. So I always had an approach where I wouldn't stay at work for no reason, but I'd force myself to have a really productive 8 hours or 7 hours, right? So I would never leave the office without having a shortlist sent to whatever role I got on that day, or advertised, all the basics. I'd make sure— I would hate going home knowing I've half-assed it, really. And that's because of that time I spent before recruitment just working what I would consider really hard jobs. Yeah, it's actually harder— as hard as it is, it's harder being a waiter, being screamed at by chefs, screamed at by customers. It's, it's half 11 at night, your feet are almost bleeding, you've been there for 9 hours, you're hungover. That's harder. Learning the value of a hard shift really puts it into perspective.

I was such a bad waiter.

Where did you—

I was a waiter for like 3 shifts anyway in Eastbourne. Yeah, there's a place, uh, in the harbour, uh, called, um, Picasso.

Yeah, that's the place with the tinted windows.

Yeah, yeah, window. So I, I'd Yeah, I did like 3 shifts, 3 shifts there, 3 shifts there, and I just absolutely crumbled. Like, honestly, yes. So yeah, one of the shifts I dropped like 2 pizzas. Yeah. And I was only carrying 2 pizzas. Like, it was bad.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I totally get that. Um, okay, cool. So just, just on that point, and then I'd love to sort of dive into your management experience. I think a lot of people get value out of that. So yeah, with that, with that in mind, what— how do you typically structure your day? What's that typically like? You're quite rigid with that, or not at all? Really? No, no, you don't have sort of set blocked out? No, no, no.

My rationale, and that's the best thing about recruitment, is every single day is really different.

Okay.

Every day is so different. So if I have a set plan for every day, I'm not going to be competitive, you know what I mean? So I come in, and one thing I always do, and it looks like I'm a child, but I always do it, is I do a morning list. Okay. Of things that just have to be done that morning.

Yeah.

Then after lunch, I make a lunch list. Things that have to be done. And if it's a late one, I do like an evening list of things that have to be done before I go home.

And I make sure you do make priority—

I do prioritize tasks, but what it is, it's different every single day. Yeah, I'm not going to leave work without, without doing the key things, but if something happens overnight, I come in and I see it, then suddenly that's the priority. Yeah, um, little things like I'll always— if there's interview requests, I'm going to try and get those in sooner rather than later, because if you procrastinate on those, then someone was you know, someone's available at half one, they no longer are, and that's only because I was lazy and waited 20 minutes to book it. I can't stand that.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, I would hate myself. I'd never do that. Yeah. So those things I'm doing right away. Other things, there's lots of flexibility, and I've always operated on the metric of I'll do what makes money first, frankly, even though I'm not a cold-hearted, money-motivated person. I think a good way of structuring your day is being a bit commercial about it. It's like, will that make me money, or is that just a nice thing to do? It is calling back that person who I can't realistically help, and I've told them this, and they called again anyway. The best thing for me to do— it might be the nicest thing, but actually, if I get this shortlist out, that's going to help me.

Yeah, nice. I think that's a great mindset to have, isn't it, when you're approaching tasks and what you should be spending time on and stuff.

And when I was on my grad scheme, it was— I, I spent 2 weeks on this team that was super volume-driven Okay, which is very different to me, but I work like 3 roles a month, right?

Really?

Yeah, well, maybe like 6.

Okay.

And you try and fill half of them and a couple more get put into next month and it's all good. This team was like 11 a week. Yeah. And that 2 weeks taught me everything. It taught me so much. It taught me— I bring that ethos to this desk. Yeah, I'm working this slower desk but with the urgency and pace of it, as if I've got all and it just forces you to get things done, and it just makes you really realistic with your time. And when you start managing, it's that times 10, because suddenly you've got someone you need to advise or want to have a quick moment in the meeting room one-on-one, just talk through some strategies, or they have a complaint, or they have a question on salary or something. Or you have, like, like I do this week, 4 appraisals in one week, right? They're going to be an hour each, and I've got to marry that with trying to still hit punchy individual targets. So that, that really helps.

So let's talk about management then. So, so, so just to be clear then, so you ended up taking on under your wing, one person that quickly turns to people, and then it's been 4 people for like 3 years.

Yeah.

So let's start with what have been the biggest challenges in you, in, in you managing these people, would you say?

Yeah, well, the, the bog-standard one at the start was, was keeping up what was a, what was a big billing, um, expectation for my first year going into my second year. Okay.

Um, and was that expectation yourself or expectation with the people above you?

Totally on myself.

Really?

I've never been made to feel bad about my billings.

Really?

Literally never, even once.

Yeah, so that's more of your own standards.

Yeah, my own standards. I think I've always billed at a level where I'm always around 200, right? So I think it's always been satisfactory, and I've always had people around me that are doing that. Um, but it was hard. I, I think, I think honestly, if you're going to start managing, you need to be in a good position billings-wise before you do Really? Because I think there might be a bit of a drop. I think, I think particularly if you're managing multiples, you, you might suffer a quick drop in billings, if not a longer one. And if you— if that starting point is 200 to 170, it's better than 150 to 130.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that was a big one.

So, so what— so would— so your advice would be, if you're in the process of managing more people, have a real look hard at yourself and like, how, how good is my desk right now? I've got some good relationships that are gonna, yeah, definitely be fruitful.

Frankly, make sure you're, you're roughly speaking a $200K-esque, maybe $180, $190 level biller, because you need to be at a level where if you have a bit of a drop, which like I say is natural, you're still able to be in a decent position and make money for yourself. Also, because when you have someone join your team, in a perfect world, you give them a few easy warm rolls to get their confidence up while they graft new clients. So you have a bit, because you're warm enough to give them a few things. Yeah, it's that combination. So you have to do, you have to do a service list of people that come and join you. Yeah. And also look at your own billings.

Yeah.

Yeah. So that, and that's tricky. So that was a hard part of management. Um, that was one of the challenges. I mean, I've always been lucky with managing, I think, good hard-working people. So I've never had to deal with like really difficult situations. Yeah, like someone that I just think, what are you doing? Yeah, never had that chat. I think we recruit fairly well.

Um, was there anything— since you, you were just saying there where you might be pulled aside or whatever, have you had— that's come up a few times where a couple of people realized that they were getting pulled aside for things that they probably could have worked out themselves. So came up with a bit of a system where you was like, look guys, if you— obviously if you need to speak to me you can, but let's— unless it's like urgent, talk to me in this sort of window. I don't know, have you— did you— have you come up with anything, or So I don't like the window idea.

Okay, I know people do that. Yeah, my rationale is like, I hate the idea of someone sitting there simmering on something and not doing it. Yeah, I hate that. No, just ask.

But have you known— have— did you find out a challenge though, that you was always—

oh yeah, yeah, it's challenging, but it worked because these people ended up being big billers. So when I look back at 2017, I just think of it as a hard year, but one that eventually I'd turn around somehow because of the camera crews.

Yeah.

And then, and also the two people ended up doing quite well, so I, it was a hard—

so why do you think they did well?

I think, I think it was they were joining a pretty successful culture. I think they had the benefit of someone who had a couple of years under the belt like, like I did, and, and was— I, I really made sure they knew the market. Like, I'd prioritize teach them about the market. Yeah, we'd have some one-on-ones. I was like, this is how it works. They had some good clients to crack on with. They weren't having to grow.

You passed on some of your clients, passed a couple of things.

Like, for, for one of the chaps I, I took on in that, in that October of 2015, passed on some roles to him that he filled with some of the consultancies and stuff. And it just gets your confidence up a bit more.

Yeah.

Um, and they were really good. Like, not saying over them, they were, they were great. So they, they wanted it too, and that really helps, you know. So, so they were, there were people that would listen, they'd follow the structure I had in mind, they'd bring their own ideas to the party I love when you're managing someone and they actually surprise you. Like, they actually are— like, they give you a perspective. Like, my God, I wouldn't think of that candidate. Like, that's a good feeling. Yeah, they were those kind of people. So I was lucky that I had good people like that. But, um, yeah, basically.

How, um, your market? Yeah, like, it's just because I think, as I said at the beginning, like, from your experience— I know obviously you haven't been in any other markets, but like, how has it been a really fruitful market, the sort of real estate and construction?

Yeah, I think it's been, it's been a weird one. It has been on the whole, but you really feel it in this market when there's a blip. Yeah. Um, because I think it's one of those things where if you're going to buy a property and it's £400 million, yeah, and you're unsure, 9 times out of 10 you might prolong that. You're gonna wait a bit later because it's such a risk. A building, a tenanted building where any of the tenants can go into administration, and that's a suffering point in the recession, or the building could tank in value, or you've begun a development, you're halfway through a development that has to finish and the market's tanked, so now the price you had in mind isn't going to work. There's so much risk attached, one of the riskier sectors, and we really feel it because like you're not going to grow your team in an environment where you're sitting on your hands waiting to do a deal.

How can you— you can't really objection handle that, can you?

You— what you do is you're just— you really— this is about 2017 again, which was a huge year for me. It's about shifting your focus from roles where they've historically been really prestigious European investment roles, people that are kind of buying buildings. And you shift it towards things like, like insolvency, for instance, is when a building goes into administration, there are certain surveyors that specialize in turning that around. So they really— those roles thrive in hard work. Suddenly you need to serve it. So you're still recruiting, you want to look at your market and be like, is there actually an opportunity here or not?

And that's awesome.

Often there is. And so you pivot and you and what was an awesome role 2 months ago might not be. And the sooner you come to that realization, the better. I came to that realization later than I would have hoped, but in enough time to turn things around.

And yeah, that's really interesting. I think, again, I think that's the sort of mindset piece, isn't it? It's like you could, you could have sat there and gone, it's Brexit, it's Brexit, it's this, it's this, and not taking any accountability. And he was willing there to go, right, okay, well, where, what people are getting the opportunities out of this, this environment and this market.

Well, once again, what was deceptive is that they're happy to interview, right? Yeah, these, these investment firms happy to interview, um, but unless someone's— when push comes to shove, yeah, they're going to be like, you know, we might actually just hold back and wait. Yeah, it's no good if you're a creature.

Um, so I think we're speaking a bit about it briefly before we started, but, um, what I'd love to get your thoughts on, because we've sort of touched on it, but Resilience. Yeah, it's important in recruitment, isn't it?

Yeah, it's hard.

How have you personally gone about cultivating that? Because you're someone that's had to cultivate that in your team as well as a manager. So how have you cultivated that in your— in sort of yourself and your team?

Yeah, okay, well, part one of it is when you have a setback, and you'll have lots, is being brutally honest with yourself. Yeah, first and foremost, about what happened and why it happened and there will be times when people— when you talk to people about people and you're trying to place people with people, people are chaotic. Yeah. So all it takes is for one of the people in the equation to just have a complete change of heart, or for their partner to, and then they've told them to change their mind, and it can fall apart no matter your best intentions.

Yeah.

Um, but like I said to you earlier, actually though, a lot of times when it goes wrong, you could have improved. You could have done something. You could have maybe met them after the second interview because you sensed a wobble in their voice. You could have asked them again that point. That—

yeah, yeah.

And the sooner you come realization that actually I can tweak that, the better. That's, that's one thing, right?

How did you, how did you get your team to take responsibility though? Because that, that isn't a typical thing that someone— not, not everyone's willing to be accountable.

Yeah, but I was really lucky because I, I don't feel like I'm having to force people to do this.

Really?

Yeah, I never feel like I'm telling people, like, they're looking at me like an alien. Like, I've had really good people that were like, when I say this, they're like, yeah, because it actually is a better feeling knowing you can change it. Like, the hardest thing I've had to do as a manager was actually this year already, where we've had someone in the Parisian market, and this Paris market just isn't working. Just isn't working. And it's— you can't look at it and be like, you, you change this approach, you change this. Yeah, you can't really do that because that— we're external to it, it's across the sea, all of those things. And that's a harder conversation. Yeah, it's easier when you're like, tweak this and that, and I reckon you'll get there.

Yeah.

And then they often— they get there. People like to hear that. They like to hear a manager who can like spar with them, be like, I reckon you should change this around. I never had someone be like, no, no, I promise you, because they, they hopefully want help. Yeah, that's why they're here.

So the first thing is be willing—

first thing is take accountability, as hard as it is, and know that it's a good thing if there are ways you can change it. Yeah. Second thing is to have more in your life than recruitment. Yeah, which is where I got it wrong early, early on when I was like 23. It was my life. Have more in your life than recruitment so that, oh, so that after you've digested it, you can escape from it for a bit. Watch some football, go to the pub, do whatever you want to do. Like, whatever you do.

How did you get better at that?

Well, I got like little things. Like, I've—

did you start putting yourself out there in London and— no, people and stuff?

Yeah, I don't know. Like, I've, I've just grew up a little bit, frankly. Like, I've got— I'm married now. Like, I just have such a life outside of like, I— it gets easier. Little things like I don't have my emails on my phone, really, which is probably really controversial, but I just don't because I just don't think— once again, if I know that between 8 AM or half 8 AM and half 5 PM I've got this time to do this, I'll work hard and be like, oh, I'll just send a few emails from home.

Yeah, yeah, so I know what you mean.

So I don't do that anymore, and I just— and it helps you come in with a much fresher perspective. So I actually think, you know what, I I probably— I don't work less hard, but I definitely— there's less intensity, but which I think helps. So first and foremost, be brutal with yourself. And if you can think of what you could do differently, that's a good thing. If you can't, don't be too hard on yourself. Yeah, like if someone's literally been counter-offered 40% of their salary, then just know that that can happen despite all the assurances it won't. And then as soon as you've come to that realization, escape for a bit, digest it, enjoy your life, realize that there is more to this than treatment, um, and then come in with a new perspective, ready to go again, because you've got to go again and it's going to happen again. Also, part 3, be realistic. It's going to happen again. So no matter how bad it feels now, it's going to happen again. Yeah, get ready for it to happen.

Even how good it gets, everything's working, it's like, right, like, again, it comes to like, don't be too high with the highs and too low with the lows, right? It's like, just understand that it's gonna happen.

It's gonna happen. Just make sure you enjoy the highs. It's really weird in recruitment because you often don't enjoy the hires because you place someone, and then if you're a hungry person, you're like on to the next thing. And it's quite an unhealthy psychology because you, you actually sit back and like, in that year, like when I did like 200, or I do Billwell, I actually look back and I think, I don't— I— you don't celebrate successes as much because I, I have this quite weird, quite pessimistic approach where I, I almost think that most things don't happen. Okay. Yeah, I have the approach of I won't just— a deal's done, everyone seems happy, brilliant, that's great. But you know what, there's a very good chance it just won't happen. All it takes is someone to get ill. Like, I've had the craziest things. I have people like— I've had someone like get really injured in a skiing accident over Christmas and they haven't been able to start the company I placed them in and it's fallen out. That was 2016. Yeah. So I'm— when I do a deal now, I'm like, I'm—

no, no, no, stay grounded, stay grounded.

And most importantly get backup options then. Like backup options for deals you've done, or even if you have like loads of— like we call them projections, I don't know if that's like an industry-wide term, like projections, like all the roles you have on in a month.

Yeah.

And I always say you need at least 4 projections to make money.

Okay.

You've got 4 roles on. One role, the guy gets counter-offered loads of money and it won't happen. Yeah. Right. The other role, the girl, it delays and she's meeting the next month now, so it's out of this month. And then in the other role, you got unlucky and the other chap who isn't from you, is from another recruiter, picked your candidate to the and they've got the job. But if that's happened a fourth time, there's something truly wrong with the recruiter.

Yeah.

So I always look at my team, and I'm not looking at a team that is instantly billing, but the sooner they can get to a level where they're at 4 projections a month, the better, because that to me is when you can start making money. And of course, some months it all clicks and you have a 50K month.

Yeah, I like that.

But you need 4 roles on at interview, otherwise you're leaving it too much to chance.

Yeah, yeah, you don't like that.

You don't get unlucky, you just have to have so much going on and work so ferociously hard that you deal with the obvious, yeah, unluck that's out there.

Just don't get complacent.

Don't get complacent. Even when you do the deal, there was one guy I managed and it was like, he'd be like, that's a done deal. I was like, really? All it takes is for someone to get ill.

You do that early on though, don't you?

You do, yeah.

You put— you're like, yeah, that's, that's a place.

You love it.

You do get better at judging that, but as you said, you also get better at, you know what, this, this could fall out, even though how come, even how confident you are about it.

Yeah, and the sooner you get there, the better. So actually, that's when, that's when full fallouts can almost be a healthy thing, because you realize that you should have actually still had a couple of options.

You know what, because yeah, and then you could look at yourself and be like, did I get complacent there? Did I rely on things to happen too much? How does business development fit in all this then? Because what you're talking about there is, if I'm, if I'm always having 4 potential offers for potential jobs going my way. Yeah, each month. That, that surely that's got to require always doing new business.

Yeah, definitely.

Um, what should be in your experience that— because that's probably again a really common topic, and in terms of people, that's a big area that people struggle. I don't know what your team has been like. They've, they've obviously had to get better, but that, that can be a real area where a lot of people struggle.

Yeah, business development, important. Um, it comes into keeping in touch what the industry is doing. And I always think there's no point business developing about a product, and in recruitment, that product is the candidate.

Yeah, so it's just speccing people out.

I do it the same way around every time. I'm sure this isn't that unique, but I meet someone, I ask them what kind of companies they like, and they might say to me, I like X. And I'm really honest, I say, look, I, I also, I've seen their movements, they're really impressive, I know a few people that have gone there. I'll be real with you, I don't actually yet have a contact, but I can easily mention I place some of their competitors. And if you're happy with this, I can have chat, see what they say. And then it goes from this call where you've called this random company introducing yourself and who you work for, which no one cares about.

Yeah, no one cares.

No one gives a damn about that. And maybe a couple of snippets of, oh, I see you bought this warehouse in Luxembourg, which they also don't care about, to actually saying, I've met this brilliant asset manager, they're fluent in France, I see you've just bought a few things in France on 80K, they'd really love to meet you guys if you're in for a coffee. And then that's an actual call. Yeah, you have to have the candidate. That's what I realized really early on. I don't think I was even taught that, like, that just came to me quite naturally. It's like, you've got to have an actual product for them to buy, otherwise it's just you.

Yeah.

And, and that was a massive thing. And it's like, just, just sell an actual product, and then they don't need to know you. They, they just want to see this candidate. They want to see the candidate. You send them the CV, it all clicks together, you send your terms, and that's how you get new business on. Yeah.

So, so I'm assuming you, you're telling your guys to always be— yeah, obviously you get better and know what a good candidate is and what a good candidate is to spec out and stuff, but that they've always got to be working with candidates or finding candidates that drum up business.

It all starts with the candidate.

Yeah.

I, I really discourage anyone to just be like drafting up these organization names, have like 11 in a row and just do back-to-back calls all through them because you're not going to get anywhere. Because why would they? Unless they— unless you get absolutely lucky and you've managed to catch a client in the middle of like genuinely urgent recruitment, they're like, yeah, I do actually, which is unlikely. Yeah, you've got to kind of impress them with a really good product.

Have you ever— it's been spoken about a lot, but have you ever sort of had success in speaking to senior people about jobs and then flipping those people into hiring managers? So if you're, if you're approaching hiring managers with, with sort of senior jobs that could also be your client? Have you ever done—

how do you mean?

Like, it's like, so obviously I don't know what a typical job title is for your managers, but if you have like a really senior role that you're maybe recruiting for, that gives you an opportunity to call people that would potentially be hiring managers, but you're talking to them about a job.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's delicate balance, isn't it?

Yeah.

Like, because we— yeah, you definitely just— the way it is, you have, you have people that are clients and candidates. Yeah. And they are on one hand calling you, like chasing you on wanting more CVs, and the other hand, like, if you found me, like, found me a job. Yeah, yeah, it's a delicate balance.

It's gonna be effective where a lot of people have shared.

Yeah.

So if you're not doing that, I'd also be thinking about that. Um, so look, before, before we finish, um, I'd love to get your thoughts on— I love the way sort of you've broken down things and stuff. I guess the people that you've always seen or been quite inspirational to you in terms of like billing very well, being good recruiters. What are some of the common things have you seen in these people? Do you think, if we think about that, what are some of the common traits that you see in the people that you've always sort of thought, you know what, they're really leading by example?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, they often just go for it. They have like a just go for it mentality. Um, my boss when I joined had like a poster on her desk that just said, just fucking do it. And then she passed it to me, and it's true, like, just do it. Like, find the balance between knowing your stuff tough, but also learning on the, on the, on the phone, on the meetings. Um, so I found that the attitude of just doing it, giving yourself permission to make a bad call and then, and then a few good ones, is good. Um, really granular things like make sure you actually meet the clients. Like, don't just let yourself have a phone call. Find a good reason to meet them. And often that's just saying, look, I'm literally 5 minutes away. It doesn't have to be like an hour in the boardroom. Just see me for 20 minutes. Let me see your culture firsthand. And I will develop a job. Yeah, so meet people. The people I know that are the most successful, that they genuinely pride themselves in being a part of their market. They're not a recruiter and they're looking in. Yeah, at this market, they're in that market and they're, they're a mover and shaker in the market. That's such a great way to look at it. And that's the difference in mentality. You're not— you, you're in real estate. That's the thing, you have to think of it because if you don't, you're never going to have the— you're always going to feel like you're intruding on real estate by calling these people. No, you're in real estate and they need you.

Yeah. And I think part of that is knowing and know and know it— know the value that you bring when you're in that. Oh yeah.

You're not Vodafone calling them about their contract. Sometimes you're offering this person the difference between a move that can change their lives and stagnating where they are. And you have— if you don't believe it, you don't sound like that, how are they going to believe? Yeah. You got to believe. You got to really believe that you're worthwhile. And like I said earlier, That doesn't mean being deluded and working a role that obviously is a stepping stone role and upselling it. That's just— the way to be confident in that scenario is saying, I know this isn't what you want to do long term because I know you.

Yeah.

So I'm not going to lie, this role is admittedly a point A to point B type thing. Yeah. But I think it's worth you doing because you know what, it will get you there. If you can grind it out for 2 years, do a good job, it will get you there.

Yeah, yeah.

That is the approach. I'm definitely not a very salesy person. Another quality that's really good is the best people here, at least, they don't sound like they're making a sale on the phone.

Really? It—

yeah, like, they don't. It just sounds like they're having a very human conversation. Sometimes they even say— and I do this— I'm like, maybe don't go for it then, you know what I mean? Maybe, maybe, you know, maybe just wait a little while and we can find something better because maybe the market would improve in 6 months, so I'll call you then. And then the candidates either like, oh crap, they— no, I don't want to wait 6 months. I go for it, or they'll be like, fine, fair enough. And they remember that you're the one person that didn't force them into an interview. And that's powerful because then when in the future you do actually lay your ground down, you're like, no, I think you're making a mistake here, it counts for more because you're the same person that said, oh, I get it, last time around. So not sounding like huge—

long-term mindset, isn't it? Willing to take those sort of shortcomings for the long-term gain of being respected and building credibility on— yeah, I think, I think that's, that's a great quality to have, isn't it? Yeah, recruitment is a sales though, isn't it? Recruitment is that— recruitment is that it's sales, but the best sales doesn't sound salesy to me.

Yeah, you're trying to make a sale, but the best way to actually accomplish that end is by talking to someone like a human being, working out what they want, and just being realistic with them. Like, it's always to make a sale. We're here to make money, I get it. But I found that rather than reading from a script and hard-nosing it, it's much better to be like man-to-man or woman-to-woman. Here's the thing, This is probably not for you right now in terms of your dream. I don't think your dream is attainable, frankly. You're kind of two roles behind your dream. Go for this and it will get you there in 18 months. That's, that's, that has more sway.

How much is, how, how is it interesting from your perspective, before we finish, like, you've been in the market for 5 and a bit years, how much has it changed from like the recruitment perspective in your experience, and where do you see it going? So like, what would sort of some of the biggest changes that you notice noticed. Yeah, I have noticed.

When I joined, it was the start of it being really candidate-led. That's what everyone kept telling me, really, like it's a candidate-led market. That's only become so much more the case, really. Candidates call so much of the shots. Seriously, they— that— there's like, you get an offer these days, you get an offer and you don't even celebrate because you've got an offer and it's good, but you're just like, the actual hurdle here is getting this person to, to hopefully accept. And yeah, when they probably have 4 other offers.

Yeah.

Um, that's a, that's a challenge. It's really candidate-driven. I think, I think LinkedIn is huge. I think you need to be using LinkedIn in a really constructive way to stand out. And whether that's like you, you were saying, like branding or in-mailing. One thing I wish I did sooner was, um, LinkedIn referrals. Yeah, the recommendations. I missed out on so many of those, like from 2015 and '16. I just didn't ask. I've done more in the last couple of Yeah, um, but I missed out on some amazing ones. And that's, that's your brand, that's your legacy. Yeah, where you work, that's, that's them talking about you. And I just wish I did more of that. So I just think you have to be ahead of the curve in technology now, um, whether that's LinkedIn or job boards, AI, those kind of things. And yeah, it's really candidate-driven. And the main thing I tell clients when I meet them, not in a, not in like an aggressive way, I just say, be aware, you guys, that it isn't a culture where you can just have someone sit here in a boardroom grill them for an hour and they're lucky if they get called back. Yeah, you've got to actually communicate the strengths of your culture. Yeah, it has to be both ways. Yeah, and it has to be both ways.

Yeah. And how— and then how do you see it the next 5 years? Anything that— how do you see it sort of evolving?

Yeah, I see, I see a lot more— I see more players joining it. I think Amazon and Google— I think recruitment is quite an immature, like, an immature industry in terms of there's only a few massive conglomerates in it. Yeah, like Lowe's.

And I think that will change.

I I think there's a huge— it's a very profitable business model. I think places like Amazon and Google and stuff are going to see that. We're going to get even more saturation, more tech companies. The line between like recruitment and AI and like automated job board recruitment, they're going to blur a lot. And I can just see things becoming more automated, and I think that will actually be quite harmful. But I think a lot of things are going to become automated, and I just think that the role of a recruitment company is going to be a really interesting thing because what we can give you is a more human dialogue than you get by working with an Amazon or a Google on their job boards. But you've got to stay ahead though, because if you're able to— if Amazon just have a monopoly over all of the job boards and they're getting all of the cool things first, you've got to be competitive. You've got to find a way to have your own AI and stuff. Like, I think all the tech element is huge.

Yeah, it's going to be interesting.

Yeah, the next 5 years are going to be really— and I think it will come down to who can be the most technologically progressive while also retaining that human element. Yeah, you're not a robot. It's marrying the two.

Yeah, it's marrying the two. I, I couldn't agree more. I think if you're someone that can be absolutely brilliant at, yeah, delivering on the human element, building relationships, being an advisor, the human element, if you can really do that really well, I think that's also where a lot of people are, um, now not given as much time because they think, I'll just email them, or I'll just send them a message on LinkedIn, or whatever. Do you get what I mean? So I think People are also prone to forgetting that, well, actually it would actually be— yeah, so I think that's also really interesting where actually it's sort of coming in a reverse way. Yeah, you can definitely achieve a lot through online WhatsApp or whatever, but if you sort of keep your eye off the— if you don't keep your eye on the ball on getting in front of people, building relationships on the phone, again, that, that's going to end up being a competitive advantage that you have.

Yeah, exactly. Like, I think you can hide behind it, and that's another big thing in the next 5 years. Who's gonna what companies are going to hide behind it and alienate people, and what ones are going to use it to enhance the face-to-face stuff and actually have it on their side. And I, I think hopefully we can— hopefully Cobalt can, you know. Um, we're gonna have to because it's going to get even more competitive, I think. So yeah.

So look, before I'm asking the last question, what is Tom excited about? What, uh, what would you love to shout about? So what, what is on the agenda for 2020?

Goodness.

Yeah, well, I've, I've, uh, I don't know, gonna break the 200K mark this year, hopefully.

Yeah, if not more. Yeah, more. We're in a good position. Um, it's a really encouraging January, to be honest.

So you're hiring for your team?

We are. Yeah, yeah, we're hiring. Uh, boss is coming back from mat leave next month.

Oh wow, nice.

Yeah, so should be back. That'd be good, give a bit of structure. Um, someone to bounce ideas off. That—

yeah, awesome.

So there's lots of positive things are happening. Definitely want to break 200K, obviously. Yeah, you've got it. And, uh, get the up there as well. I almost get more satisfaction from, from doing it as a team. I look at the team number. Yeah, I mean, like the 4 of us.

Yeah.

Um, so just have a, have a, have a great year. Make hay while the sun shines. Hopefully it will be shining.

Yeah.

And just crack on. Yeah. Honestly, nothing, nothing profound, I'm afraid.

Final question. Um, if you could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they take on your advice— it could be a word, a phrase— and they'd implement your advice tomorrow, What would you say if they was all listening?

What would I say? What, like a, a bit of advice?

Yeah, just if they would all listen, they take on your advice, what comes to mind when I ask you that? What would you want to say to these people? If you're—

I would say like, if, if you're joining recruitment like I did as a graduate, then I think it may or may not be for you, but be— if it isn't, be the hardest working failure in the room. That's what I thought. I was like, when I joined recruitment, I was like, this might not be for me, but if it isn't, I'll be able to look myself in the mirror and be like, I've worked my absolute ass off.

Yeah, give it a real go.

Exactly, give it a real go. Because a lot of it is out of our hands. It's beautiful at the end of the day, isn't it? But if you can look at yourself and be like, I gave it my absolute best and I moved with the times and I kept trying, that's at least something, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. That's my— always, it's really basic, but just basically just hold yourself to account and put the work in.

Yeah, Tom, it's been a pleasure.

Cheers, Jim.

Thank you.

Thanks, mate.