Tom Ponting - From agency recruiter to agency owner, how to scale and sustain your billings.

Welcome to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Tom Ponting, who is the founder of Amber Resourcing, who are a tech specialist recruitment agency. Tom started his recruitment career in 2006 working in finance recruitment, but then joined a 10-person it team at Opus Recruitment in 2010, where he progressed through the ranks from consultant all the way to regional and managing director, where he was then responsible for a business unit generating around £30 million in turnover before he then left Opus to start Amber Resourcing in 2019. In this time, he's been back to scale and grow Amber Resourcing. They currently have 11 people in the business but have ambitious plans to grow the business across the UK and look to get to the 60-90 people mark over the next 3 years. So, Tom, Thank you for joining me.

No, thank you. Thank you for the lovely intro as well, mate.

No worries. So where I always like to start, and the first question I have for you, Tom, is in your opinion, what characteristics and traits do you think make up a highly successful recruitment consultant?

Yeah, okay. So I think it's not really a trait, if you like, or characteristic, but it's, um, the first thing for me is like hard work, um, like bring it right back to the basics of the best people that I've worked with within the first 6 months of joining the business have probably been the people that have put in the most amount of effort. And it's like you said, it's a really like easy, cool thing that anyone can really do. But the people that tend to put the most amount of effort, hit the KPIs early doors, that they seem to be the people that work out the best. So hard work being one of them, resilience is another one. I'd say to anyone that's joining or looking to get into recruitment, the first 6 months, I mean, there'll definitely be tears at some point or another, and if there aren't tears, you're probably not pushing yourself hard enough. And so the resilience of being in a position where you're just not letting things affect you for more than a day, the rule I have is like, yeah, if something goes wrong, like, let it affect you, like, let it hurt a little, but when you come in the next day, make sure, yeah, make sure that you leave that at the door and you come in as a fresh day and we're kind of going again. So that's the kind of two kind of cool ones. Consistency is what makes, what takes good billiards to great billiards. And these are the guys and girls that get to a position where, you know, the consistency of the bad months are still sticking in a deal or two. And then obviously the good months are more, so consistency is another one. And I also think the ability to actually listen and take a step back and understand something. And I think listening is such an underrated skill to have as a recruiter, not underrated, but underused, if you like.

So just before we carry this on, I love the fact that you brought up consistency. Just keen to sort of zoom in on that quickly because I think everyone listening to this wants to be more consistent, right? I guess, look, you would have seen so many recruiters in your time. Yeah. So I guess when I say to you a great consistent biller, what are the sort of top 3 things you think that they sort of do day in, day out, week out that maybe some people don't do that could prevent them being consistent?

Yeah. Okay. Well, speaking from experience, when I say consistency, it's coming in and doing the same actions. It's like, again, it sounds really simple and easy, but so many times I've been with consultants where they've had a superb month, they've got this massive commission check at the end of the month. And the next month they're just not at the races, they're doing whatever they're doing with their money, but they're not coming back and not following the same actions. I think a lot of recruitment is quite mathematical in terms of the numbers and what you have to do to achieve the end result, be it 2, 3, 4, whatever deals per month. So the consistency is actually the actual work you put in throughout the course and obviously the inputs If you do the same amount of inputs on most months, the outputs will be what the inputs dictated. So that's what I mean by consistency. It's actually some consultants will have one month and they'll be superb and they'll get the big commission check, they'll do 30, 40, 50K whiteboard and then they'll go off the boil and you'll see the game in 2 or 3 months' time. So just having that level consistent input would be, you know, would be the focus.

Yeah. So, yeah. So I think you're talking a bit about getting complacent there as well. And I think, I think the other thing that you're talking about there, which I think is really interesting, is because straight away we're now talking about just, just it's come up a few times now, but just a word that people for whatever reason have tarnished, which is KPIs, right? But it's what you said. It's actually, well, no, it's actually understanding the science behind what you need to do that will give you the best chance of achieving the outcomes that you need. So I think that I'm glad you highlighted that because I think, I think that's the way it needs to be sort of positioned, isn't it? It's like, well, okay, so you've done 50 grand this month. Like, let's have a look. Do you understand why you was able to do that? Like, yes, you are good and you have talent and these things, but do you actually know why you think you was able to achieve that? And I think that's what you're talking to, isn't it? The best recruiters understand the science that they need to sort of put in each month that can give them the best chance.

Yeah, I think when people mention KPIs, they kind of cringe a little bit, like, oh my God, KPIs. But what do you actually break it down? It could be used, like you said, on such a positive, a positive angle. So, okay, well, how have you done this 50K? What was it able to do that? And then you track it back and you look at the KPIs and you go, okay, well, that's if you want to do 50K again, here's your platform to do it. And if you haven't done it, then we need to maybe inspect the quality in which you're doing it at. So yeah, I think, I mean, going back to starting up and doing this with Amber and starting doing billing myself, it's like I needed KPIs. I needed to know what I needed to do in order to get my 2 or 3 deals over the course of the month. So yeah, I think KPIs are really underrated in terms of, I think, again, people crease up a little bit and get nervous and scared of a KPI, but it should be a recruiter's best friend.

Yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, if you're listening to this straight away, it's like, make sure you've looked at this quarter, last quarter, last month. Like, you should be able to answer the question with your manager, with yourself, right? Okay, how did I achieve that? What are sort of the core things that I need to do? And I think that's what you've highlighted quite quickly. So amazing. So how just to frame this up for people. So obviously for the last coming towards 18 months, you've been a recruitment business owner, right, of Amber Resourcing. So obviously slightly different journey there. But, and then obviously before that, you was an employee, but obviously got to the position where you're managing P&Ls, teams, etc. So we're going to start there and sort of break some of that down and then we'll go into Tom the business owner. So I guess how would you, and Phil, just whatever comes up for you naturally, but like How would you describe, like, your sort of early on in recruitment for you? How would you describe it? I'm always interested.

Yeah, I just absolutely love that. I think I'm one of those people that— I think a lot of people fall into recruitment, don't they?

Yeah, yeah.

Whereas as soon as I got an understanding of what recruitment was, I always wanted to get into recruitment. It was like, it was my dream job.

Using insurance, was it using insurance sales or something before? Yeah, same.

Yeah, yeah. So actually, I first got wind of it when I used to play for a football team and one of the guys, there's a guy called Nigel Romano who is one of the senior people at Opus. And we're in the changing room, he said, listen, I think you'll be quite good at recruitment because of your attitude and your ability to communicate and whatnot. And I looked a little bit further into it. I actually dropped out of college and back in those days, now those days sound really old, but back in those days, it was a case of you usually had to be a graduate to get a chance at some of the companies. It was a little bit tougher to get into. So I seeked some advice and they said, well, get some sales experience behind you. Yeah. And, you know, with some sales experience over a prolonged period of time, then you've got a much better chance. So yeah, that's what I did. I did a few years in insurance sales and then got an opportunity to come up to Bristol and an interview for a recruitment business. But yeah, I honestly think I was born and made for this. Really? Yeah, 100%. I can't think of myself doing anything else. So it's a match made in heaven.

So for the first few years then, obviously you clearly had the passion for it, but were they rocky? Were they good? Was it a duck to water? How would you describe it?

Like a duck to water. Again, I'm taking it back to the KPIs. I'm quite a simplistic man. It's like, you tell me what needs to be done, and I'll do it. And I sat down on my first job and they said, well, hit these figures and do these numbers and you'll do X. And I just did exactly that. I stuck my head down and I did the numbers, and I did the numbers probably and 50% more. And lo and behold, you know, within my first position, I was, you know, the top biller there for 2 and a half, 3 years. And then you know, the call-up came when I went to Opus, and exactly the same thing happened there. So yeah, there was no kind of rocky moments at all because again, I followed the process that someone gave me. I followed their instructions and the numbers that they said I needed to hit.

Okay, so let's just hone in a bit on this sort of Opus journey then. So obviously, from what I can see, which I think is interesting, and you may speak to recruiters now doing this, to be fair, or you may have at some point in your career, but obviously I saw that you had to transition from finance to tech, right? So I think sometimes recruiters listening to this may go through that or could be quite worried about that. So I guess, so looking back at that, I guess, did you find anything difficult about transitioning into a different sector? What did you do to give yourself the best chance of having a good start? I don't know, how would you describe that change and what would your advice be for someone that would be transitioning?

First of all, I must admit that was my biggest reservation. I was shit scared. I was like, yeah, I come from a finance background where it's not fairly easy, but it was fairly easy because I've been doing it for 2 and a half years, right? And that was my biggest reservation. I actually met with Darren, the owner, a few times because most of my friends were working there at the time. And I was like, okay, well, I'm not very technical and I'm not sure if this really excites me. And it didn't really at the time. And they said, well, you know, you pick it up. Sales is sales, recruitment's recruitment. If you can recruit and you're successful in one area, you can probably do it in most areas. You just need to invest a bit of time of like learning the market. So that was the first thing. And I think the first few months, you just start by speaking to candidates to really gather a better understanding of the market. But I think you probably, you probably get away with it by using a few buzzwords in the first few months and winging it a little bit. But yeah, that was the biggest reservation. But that came quite quickly. I think within— I always say to the people that are joining here, give yourself 3 months. And if every single day you're learning more than the day before, it's a progression, you're moving in the right area. So it probably took about 2 or 3 months to me to get up to speed with some of the lingo. But again, I think you're always learning, so I'm still learning stuff now, right?

Yeah, I think, I think the— especially in tech, what I find when I speak to recruiters or sort of work with recruiters and stuff is like there's this sort of misconception that like you have to know as much as the people as you place or be as competent as them, but you're never going to be as competent as them. I know it looks like a quite interesting USP where some recruitment business is going down the route of like all of our recruiters learn to code and stuff like that, right? And fair enough, but I think like you're, I think the actual real value that you offer and what you're talking about there is actually the insight and you're speaking to way more people like that candidate who may speak to a handful of people a lot more per week than you are than them. So actually the value that recruiters will always have is that, well, look, you're the 5th person I spoke to in the same position. This is what I found out so far, blah, blah, blah. I think it seems like, I feel like that's a common misconception in tech where it's like, oh, I don't know, I don't know anything. I'm not a techie, but it's like, well, You don't get paid to be a techie. You get paid to have that insight and all those things, you know?

Yeah, I'd much rather a consultant that knew everything about a company and from the company size to the progression of the company to everything in between, right? I'd much rather that than someone be actually technically apt and able. And with that information, then they can obviously relay that to the candidates they speak to. And then hopefully the sell is actually in the detail. That they give, they can from the knowledge of the company.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I just find that sort of an interesting nuance which sometimes people get worried about, but thank you for sharing that. So I guess a couple of things I want to ask you then before we go into the sort of Amber journey. So obviously Opus is a big brand, well-known brand in the industry. So I guess you said you had a couple of mates there, but How would you sort of describe the DNA of Opus and the DNA of their culture that you think helped it or contributed it to become sort of a big brand as it has?

Yeah, okay. So the— it was listed of like quality, quality consultants, which is one of the things I think, you know, the likes of Christian Massatu and Ryan Speeds and Nigel Romano, and I could go on and on with a list of people that are just fantastic, Zef, Katera, so it had some superb people within the business. But the DNA was just kind of go harder and faster than anyone else. On the early days, it kind of felt like we were kind of taking on the world. And this is when I joined, when we were 10 people big, just based in Bristol. And as the company grew, we just managed to attract some fantastic talent. So the actual atmosphere, the environment was, you know, you give us this job and you put us against any other recruitment consultancy in the lands and we'll beat you. That was the kind of vibe we had within the office. And usually, it kind of usually worked out that that was the case because we would go harder and faster and we would work longer. So that was the kind of vibe, but coupled with that, particularly from an early stage, we had like a brilliant training offering. I think the trainer was like employee number 6 within the business, which usually doesn't happen like that, does it? Usually you wait to get to a certain size or you outsource the training, but the trainer was a lady called Louise Foster and she was just superb. And the training and the development of people within a business even that small was superb.

So why did you highlight that then? Was that because it then meant that there was less people getting sort of chewed up and spat back out? Like you reduced retention? Did it mean that from like very early on actually, which typically doesn't happen early on, there was actually an opus way of doing things or there was a process, a framework and a, yes, a playbook for people to follow? Why do you highlight that? 'Cause I think it's interesting.

Yeah, I think 100% it's the playbook, it's the blueprint, right? You find out what makes a successful consultant and then you have that trainer that's developing you on a consistent basis. Yeah, that seemed to be the main thing. So yeah, that was that for me from my early days, particularly there where I'd probably come from a business where I might have a training day every kind of 4 months or so to have constant training, constant feedback, constant development. That was probably the key for my growth and development. And I know a lot of, lots of others as well.

So just a quick one on this, because I think this is interesting and we can maybe touch on this when we talk about how you've maybe tried to replicate this. But I guess for people listening to this, not everyone's going to have the luxury of having someone dedicated to L&D and get— so I guess, I don't know, like, what would your advice be for recruiters listening to this that do have that hunger and desire to want to improve? And it's likely that they do if they're listening to this. And how would you encourage them to try and get that feedback or try and get those opportunities where they can improve despite maybe not having what you just described earlier on the opus?

Well, I mean, it's something that I'm actually searching for myself, is in terms of like having a training offering where sort of stuff— it needs to be the right person for sure, but I think some companies, and I'm talking about business owners, might see training and development as money down the drain. But in terms of what it can return you, it's obviously not, right? So yeah, I think it's just in terms of the investment of making sure that these guys are developing, that seems to be, that's the biggest thing. And that's something I'm also looking to replicate now. You know, I'm on the— I'm out there talking to, to people about, you know, bringing a full-time trainer into the business. So that, that's a, that's a big thing for me now still as well.

Okay, interesting. So, um, what I wanted to just ask you then was, obviously a lot of recruiters want to sort of get to the position that you got to, which was sort of progressed all the way to sort of director level. And as you quite rightly said, there was a lot of great people in that business. So there would have been a lot of people that I guess, would have wanted the position that you was going for, the promotion that you was after. So again, something I'm always curious about is in an extremely competitive landscape, not just externally but internally as well with your peers, why do you think Tom was able to get the promotions that you got over the person sitting next to you?

Well, I must admit, some of the promotions were because we were growing at such a rapid rate. I was kind of almost thrust into those positions because there was probably no one better at the time. And truth be told, I probably wasn't ready for a lot of them. Yeah, we moved so quickly, we grew at such a rate that before I knew it, I was running a team of 260 come the end. So what—

But why did they think of Tom? Because I think what's come up a few times, I understand that, but I guess Surely you must have communicated at some point like that you were someone that would put your hand up if that did. I don't know.

Yeah, no, it definitely is. It definitely was. There was an opportunity that, that, that's— and I always like to be— I always like to put myself out of my comfort zone. If I ever feel comfortable, I'm like, I don't like this. I need to, I need to be pushing again. So I think every single time there was an opportunity, I'd put my hand up. I wouldn't always get the opportunity. Opportunity, but the opportunity, I got the opportunity eventually, right? So it is a case of putting your hand up and saying, yeah, give me some more responsibility. I feel like I'm in a position where I can again put myself out of my comfort zone a little.

Okay, interesting. So just for context, and then we'll take this into the sort of journey as a business owner. So by the time you left, you said you was managing a team of 60, did you say?

Yeah. Yeah, 60 people, and that's a permanent contract and a delivery team.

Yeah, okay, so I'm assuming it sort of grew to that, but I guess what, again, what people want to know, and I'm sure you'll know, is that, yeah, a lot of recruiters will be thrusted into leadership positions and quite a lot of the time haven't been given any leadership training and have to sort of work out the hard way how to get the best out of their team, which can then lead to sometimes people saying that they've got managers that micromanage them and all those things. So I guess looking back on your leadership journey there, I guess sort of thinking about people listening to this that might end up going on that journey, what would your advice be for them that maybe you had to learn the hard way for people going on that leadership journey?

Yeah, of course. I mean, I'll put my hands up. I think I was a terrible manager for the first few years.

Why? Let's talk about that because you've kept it really positive. Why do you think you wasn't that great?

Potentially. I don't like to blame things. I don't like to blame things or people, but maybe I was like a product of the environment a little bit, and maybe it's how I was managed, or maybe it's just a case of I just wasn't very good. My emotional intelligence wasn't superb. I expected more of people than they probably expected of themselves. I think a lot of the time I was judging people to my standards. So I never ever ask anyone to do something that I wouldn't do, ever. I wouldn't do it. And that is still the case now. But, you know, it's a case of if you're not doing these at the time, you're not doing these stats and these inputs, and I am still running a team of 20, it's like, what are you doing? If you're not doing these figures and I'm running a team of 20 and doing this, like, come on, it's like for me to do this and do the job at a much better rate than you. It's like, come on. That's how I— that was how it was. And again, as I said, I think for probably the good— the first like 3 or 4 years of management, I think I was awful. So what do you have to change then?

So you had to not measure people how you would yourself, it seems like, is one.

Yeah, 100%. I actually, again, going back to the training, we actually had some management training. We had a lot of emotional intelligence training, which helped me no end. And I think I just kind of mellowed out as a person a little bit as well. Yeah. Over the years, just as I got a little bit older, I was like, well, you know, if they're not going to do 100 phone calls or send out 15 CVs or whatever, it's like, you know, that's up to them. So if they want to be successful and follow the formula that's given to them, they can do so. But, you know, if they don't want to do that and they still want to knock in $10K a month doing it their way, then, then so be it. Let's embrace that. Let's help them do it that way. But again, that came with a bit of, you know, a bit of time over a few years.

Okay, interesting. So let's sort of take this into you starting Amber then. So obviously you started it in 2019. I guess what I'm always interested in, a lot of people may say down the pub or wherever, like, someday I'm going to start my own recruitment business. I think a lot of people aspire to that. Like, what gave you the confidence to sort of take that first step?

Yeah, well, I've actually like threatened to do it before. I'd been in a position a couple of times where, one, I handed my notice in a few years before and didn't quite follow through with it.

Oh, took a counteroffer.

Yeah, yeah, you could say that. There was a little bit more to it. There was a little bit more to it, which was, which looking back at the time, I probably wasn't quite ready.

Right.

And I was decent on the billing side and running a team by that time. But in terms of the other stuff, the running the business side, I was completely clueless. So yeah, so what was your question again?

So basically I was just interested, like a lot of people have the idea or the aspirations to start a business, but not many people take that first step, you know. I know we're going to talk about you being sort of invested to start and stuff, but I guess that could be part of it. But what Yeah, I don't know why. How do you take that first step?

Yeah. And then it's because I was there for nearly 10 years. I was like, it's kind of all I ever know or knew. And actually, the process happened over probably like a 6-month period for me. So it wasn't like a snap decision, right? Let's go. I started thinking about it. I knew I always wanted to do it at some point. And I knew that it would come a day when I had to do it. So I started thinking about it and actually was quite vocal about it. I actually went to my manager and said, listen, this is my situation, this is how I'm feeling at the moment. You know, we've had a great year last year and I'm in a position where I think it's time now where I need to spread my wings and start my own business. So I was like quite vocal about the whole scenario and then Couple of months went by and it just felt more and more like the time was right. Yeah. So it was a slower process, like a drip feed of like over 6 months of just going into the business. So I was like, right now I'm definitely completely ready. There's a few things that were happening that I didn't really agree with that much, but that's, you know, that's, that's beyond my control. I'm now ready to make a decision that, you know, let's, let's go have a look and and see what's what.

Okay, so just to be clear then, because I know we spoke about this before, so obviously before you then took the leap, you hadn't been on the tools for how long?

Well, yeah, probably been about 2 or 3 years. Yes. I might, you know, do the odd close in the office, like a Hollywood close.

Oh, here he is.

Yeah, working the two phones and whatnot. I've actually done that a few times. I still like kept my nose in, so to speak. But yeah.

Haven't been actively like, yeah, yeah. Okay. So it's been a couple of years.

Yeah.

So, so obviously you've been and it'd be great just to start here. So you, you've obviously got a relationship with an investor that's, that's helped you, supported you start Amber.

Yeah. Yeah.

So could you just talk a bit about that? I guess one, how did you meet this investor?

Yeah.

How does it actually work? I think as I shared with you before we went on to this, I think a lot of people always, I don't know, I feel like from the conversation I have, just have a quite sort of negative view of if I go with an investor or I go with someone that's going to support me start my recruitment business, aren't they going to take all my money? So yeah, how did you meet your investor and sort of how does it actually work? And then we'll talk about the journey so far.

Yeah, well, first of all, I'm kind of in a position where I've got 3 kids and an expensive wife and, and I was kind of living to my means and I didn't have much money savings because we're just— because I'm a recruiter, so some of us don't, right? So I was like, I need to find someone that could help support me because I need to have an income, like a basic income that is X amount. So that was like one of my first things, like I want to go and do it, but I don't have the ability, means, backing, family connections, whatever you want to call it, to be able to do it from scratch for myself. So when I was out talking to other people, I also checked around the market and I saw other people set up and I was like, okay, well, that person seems to have set up and their investor looks good. So when I started looking, it was actually for a rec-to-rec, funny enough. And he put me in touch with a few different investors. And I also wanted an investor that could leave me to my own devices a little bit and was prepared to back me when when, you know, not really ask many questions. So again, I was probably asking for the world. I was asking for a decent base salary that I could take within the position. I was asking for a decent percentage and then maybe a company that could offer me the ability to bring a few people into the business pretty quickly. So that was my that, that was, that was the situation. So I went on to a few people in Bristol and had conversations, um, and then, you know, stumbled upon, uh, the, the investor I had now. And I sat down with him and I said, well, this is what, this is what I'm after. These are not my demands, but these are the things that I'm really looking for and support and, and help from a, uh, from an investor. And ended up to where I am now.

Amazing. And would you mind, look, you don't have to go into the exact details, but I think it's just good context for people. So I think what I took from that is you was really honest with yourself, the fact that your circumstances and stuff, well, actually, look, I'm not going to be bitter about this. I actually, it's actually the best option possible for me to start a recruitment business is having someone, having someone involved. And then it seemed like you quite quickly worked out what you wanted that relationship to look like. In terms of you wanted autonomy, you wanted to, yeah, you know, you knew what you wanted, right? So I guess just the final context initially I think is useful is like, yeah, how does it sort of simply work then in terms of you owning the business? How does that work and just how does that relationship work if you wouldn't mind sharing?

No, of course. So I started off on a percentage with the investor and it wasn't really like a big negotiation. It was actually, I thought, like extremely fair. It's like Okay, well, here's your percentage, and your percentage grows to 50% after you hit 2 milestone targets. And the 2 milestone targets are money kept within the business. So nothing else, no retention, no headcount growth, no nothing. It's like you hit these 2 targets of cash within the business, then you'll get your 2 kickers into that 50%. And then when you get to 50%, it will be— you'll be in a position then where if you wanted to in the future take more from us, you can. We'll talk about a buyout for further percentage. But on the flip side, what we'll offer you is a free office for a period of time. We'll offer you some support and money to, to, to— for yourself and to bring other people into the business. And we'll also offer— see, offer, offer you it was like 12 months of like free backend support, operational support, um, from the finance team, the HR team, the legal team, which we, which we needed the first, the first few months. And, and whatnot. So, so looking at the deal in terms of the what was on offer and what they gave to me, um, these are the things that I was nervous about, um, that I probably really needed, like just little things like doing terms or responding to a legal letter or finance or contractor finance or all this kind of stuff. And they said, well, we'll sort all of that for you within the deal for the first 12 months. So yeah, that was the deal.

No, thank you for that. And I think what's great about that, it seems like, is it's just super simple and not complicated. Like there isn't these like weird loopholes that you have to get it NFI to X amount and all these things. So I guess final thing on this then, like, how— so what would you say have been one, like, what has actually— so we've spoken about what you wanted it to be like, you explained the some of the real positives. What has the actual experience been like so far? Like, you shared what you wanted to be like, what has actually been like? And then two, what would you say so far have been the sort of most positive impacts in actually going down that path to start your own recruitment business and grow your own recruitment business?

Yeah, so first of all, it's been really exciting. I feel like, not to use like reborn again, but I kind of do feel like that a little bit. I felt like I've got my edge back. Not that I think I may have lost it, but it's just in a different way. Yeah. So yeah, it's been an incredibly exciting journey to get back into a position where you're actually recruiting. I've always loved to recruit. It's always got me extremely excited about having a project and being able to fill that project.

Yeah.

So actually going back to recruiting was superb. And then, and even though we've come from a recession, so we actually didn't get our team like fully up and running until January, and then come March coronavirus hit. So we actually, we really had one decent month of recruitment, of fee generation, if you like, in February before March came. And obviously there wasn't much to be done between March and probably June, right? And again, going back to picking the right investor, what we were talking about before is, you know, we were funding like 6 people's, 6 decent people's salaries. And there was never a question, not once, was, did the investor come knocking and say, what we're doing about this? There was always confidence that we'd get back to the position where I'd go, okay, well, we're back here now, let's just make sure we go harder and faster than we did before kind of thing. So yeah, in terms of that and the positive stuff, there's been so many different positive wins that we've had since we've been kind of back from, I'd say, I think it was like June, Tunis or Tuna, Tuna or yes. We've grown through a pandemic, we've had some superb talent. In terms of why I was looking to come close to this investor, he owns a company called Sanderson's and they're a delivery-focused or delivery model business where my whole career had been spot business. I think in one year I did like 50-odd deals within a year and it was with 48 different clients. So it's proper spot business, which I knew was a limiting factor for my, for my personal development. So I wanted to align myself to a business where they did completely the opposite and they got in, got in with, with a few clients and landed and expanded and developed those accounts out. So it was really good to come into that environment and also like almost like learn a different way to recruit, to provide a superb service over a prolonged period of time. So yeah, that's probably the biggest wins. We've got some superb clients, we've done incredibly well, we've grown as a business and the future is looking good at the moment.

So how, just, it helps the context and then we'll sort of break this down a bit before we finish. What, how did you do revenue-wise first year? Gross profit-wise first year then?

Yeah, well, revenue-wise, like gross profit for the first year runs from, um, uh, July to June. We were down 100K, we were down 100K, um, within the, within the first 12 months. And obviously that was towards the end of the lockdown, so we'd really, really been going for, um, outside of a lockdown, if you like, been, been for a couple, for a couple of months. And then since we've come back from that, the GP's been like close to like 700,000. Wow. From June, you know, we're averaging like 100K months. The team of, well, to start off it was like 5 billers and we've now grown to to 11 in total. So yes, it was, we've kind of come through that 100K down and more up. So we've had a really good run of things.

Amazing. Great work. So I guess a couple of things that I'm keen to unpack here then before we finish.

Yeah.

So I guess firstly, I guess firstly, because I think a lot of people think about this, like when you thought about when you started forming the plan for Amber and these things, like, did you spend much time thinking about your USP? Or like, I don't know, what was your differentiator?

No, do you know what, that's something I'm struggling with still now.

Really?

I'll put my hands up. Yeah, I know what we're good at, but I also don't want to feel like a phony and give a story which I don't fully commit or believe. Yeah, I think everyone's looking for an angle at the moment and it's, you know, we do this and we do that and we sponsor this. It's like all very good causes, I'm sure. But I want to be able to be in a position where I go, okay, well, here's what we do, here's what we're good at, and this is our USP. You know, the USPs that we're going to say are going to be the same as what everyone says. We're just, we're vertical market specialists. The people I have within the business are just, they're just the best at what they do. And we have really, really tight patches in terms of the tech we use, but that's the same as everyone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair. I appreciate the honesty because I think a lot of people, especially early on in the journey there, I think they can spend a lot of time thinking about what that unique thing is. But I think at the same time, I respect that you're still working it out, but you do know what you can do really well, which is be inch wide, mile deep. And get some really good people that know their patch. I guess the thing that I wanted to ask you then next was a close second, was like the most— the sort of always the challenge in recruitment business that want to grow is hiring people for their own business, right? Which again, I always say is the most ironic thing, right? So like you've got some great people on the bus, it seems quite good. I always see the pictures of you guys with I don't know, transfer deadline day, like a bottle of champagne or whatever, you know what I mean? So it always seems like you guys are on the positive march. So I guess, what do you think? And this could be very reliant on you, whatever, but whatever comes up for you, like, what do you think you've done well to get people on the bus considering, you know, how many recruitment businesses your guys could join that aren't yours?

Yeah, well, I think first of all, I've got a superb team that really helps, right? In terms of the characters we have on the team, in terms of how they are as people, that they're just a brilliant bunch of people, which I think always helps when a person comes in for an interview and a chat and that they're dealing with good people that are doing well and happy and enjoy their job. That's always a thing. I've always think that, that actually like internal recruitment has been my strong point. Okay. It's something that I, to grow Opus the way we grew it, I was just, yeah, I probably spent about 50% of my time out there talking to people, understanding the market, mapping, knowing who's good. And I'd imagine, you know, through my experience, I'd like to think that I've developed some people along the way. And you'd also like to think that, you know, Bristol is quite a small place, then people start to talk and all of a sudden it's like you probably get a bit of a reputation for someone that's done good within the business. And that also helps as well, right? So yeah, I think the key thing is making sure that the people I have in the business are enjoying it and they're having fun. When they sit down and speak to people in terms of, in terms of interviews, that they're giving a good, a good account of where we're going as a company.

So you just, I guess what I'm interested in, and you just said that it's probably one of your strong points of speaking to people, internal recruitment, these things. So I guess you just shared with us that you are definitely still working out your USP in these things. So I guess what I'm just interesting, curious on is like, what was you selling to these people? What was it that, yes, you've got, you may have developed these people in the past, but I guess I'm just interested in like, what was the sell? What did you get these people bought into?

Yeah. Yeah. So first of all, when I first came, the first few people were known to me.

Okay, fair.

So I think in like firsthand, if they were looking to leave the business, I had a presentation on a laptop and I think I probably spent the first month just presenting this presentation of, you know, what we're doing and where we're looking to go.

Yeah.

So, so that probably helped. I knew a lot of their motivations, a lot of their drivers, and I could, I could, I could paint the picture of where they were going to go as an individual within the business. So that probably helped. In terms of the other people, I think it's just a lot of honesty.

Yeah.

I think if you call a spade a spade, I think, I think people that they know when someone's bullshitting and they can see right through you. So if you're not good at something or you think there's a weakness or you think there's something that needs to be improved, you've got to tell them. But you've also got to tell them what you're going to do about changing it and making it good, for example. So I think that's also helped me, painting the picture of where I'd like to be as a as a business and also the mentorship and the development they're going to get from, from me and the other people in the office as well.

Okay. And then the other thing that I want to just, just because you would have done a lot of this, I'm assuming, Opus, and now as you continue to do it to grow Amber, but like people want to know like what? So it seems like, have you typically in Amber, have you hired experienced people?

I make a mix of the two. Okay. Yeah, a mix of the two. One of my hires, one of my first hires was, I've got a static caravan down in Devon Cliffs and he sold me the caravan. I was like, mate, you're not too bad at this. You ever thought about coming into recruitment? He's like, well, I've thought about it. I said, well, get yourself up here and then we'll have an interview and get you through the door. So it's like spotting potential in people that just don't have recruiting experience. So there's a mix between experience and non-experience.

Fair. The reason why I ask is because people want to know, Tom, and people want to know, Tom, basically, like, what is it that you actually personally look for in a new hire? And not the sort of high-level classic, like hardworking, all that stuff, I guess. What has been typically the sort of secret sauce that you've looked for in people that ended up working out? What is it that you truly actually look for in people?

Like, honestly, someone that can give me 6 months is usually the key thing. If I like it, I think with most people, if you give me 6 months of your time, I'll be able to turn them into a consistent performing filler. So that's like the key thing. So are they Are they going to run at the first sign of trouble? Are they going to be in a position where things don't go quite their way over a month period and they don't do a deal or they have a dropout? They're going to leave and go somewhere else. That's the key thing for me. So yeah, the 6-month— give me 6 months of your professional life and I think I can turn you into— that's the usual thing that runs through my head. And also, are they a nice person and all that kind the staff. Yeah, but that's, that's the key one for me.

Yeah, fair. And then look, in your— in your— we, we always speak a lot about getting new people but don't always tend to speak about keeping people. I guess in your sort of journey so far, what, what things have you maybe at Opus, or what you continue to do at Amber, like what sort of things do you really try and do as a leader or put in place to, to keep your best people from leaving?

And yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things I'd like to to do more outside of obviously having coronavirus, but in terms of what we've done so far, we've had a trainer come in to do extra training and development sessions, giving people more responsibility of taking on that next step of their career, and lots of fun stuff outside of work. Again, outside of coronavirus, we've just making sure that they're enjoying themselves, having a good time, because it can be the hardest job in the world sometimes. And particularly, I think that kind of team lead, principal consultant to team lead role where you're just taking on a whole new skill set, just making sure that they're having as much fun as they possibly can.

Yeah, fair enough. So I guess I just feel like you've been like really positive. You're obviously someone that's got a really positive mindset, which I absolutely love.

Yeah, you do struggle to find me in a neg. I think that's again one of the things, you know what I said to you about having that attitude of like leaving at the door if you have a bad day? Yeah, of course. Yeah, I've had some terrible days, but you just can't let it hold you. With recruitment consultants, a bad day as a recruiter, someone leaves your business or someone doesn't take your offer or someone drops out, right?

Yeah.

It's like no one's dying. We're not surgeons.

It's just like perspective.

It's perspective, isn't it? It's like, Christ, it's like, you know, I was an insurance broker for 3 years. Do you know what I mean? It's like, you know, I had to read off a script. I'm now in a position—

Oh my God, that was grim.

Yeah, it was horrible. So yeah, I am positive.

Yeah, the reason why I ask is because, like, people always message me and people want to know, like, Tom, what were your darkest days? What were the biggest slumps that you had that you got through and how you got through it? But it seems like you've really honed that muscle of like, today's a new day perspective. Yeah, I don't know. I'm sure you've had to help people get through that.

Yeah, I've had some really bad days. I've had like bad days when people have had, you know, really, really bad news and and it's kind of like processing and dealing that with them together as a couple. So I've had— we had a commission change at my last gaff and it was a terrible day for me because I was looking at— I was going, how can I put a spin on this? It's like, how can I sell this? Because I'd like, you know, usually with a commission you can go, actually, okay, we're changing it here, but here's the carrot. I was like, I didn't think there was a carrot. So I was like, how am I going to be in a position where I can sell this and retain people in the business? And then my top biller the same day says, I'm off, and leaves that day. So that was a bad day. I was like, Oh mate, that was my worst day. Just cutting out.

That's fine. Well, um, mate, it's still recording, so let— we'll wrap this up in like 5 minutes. I've just got like 5 final questions. Is that okay?

Yeah, of course, man.

Okay, so, um, wait, I'll just— I can edit this bit out. Just had some connection issues, but obviously, Tom, you were sharing that, yeah, you've obviously had some very bad days, like your top biller leaving after changing the commission structure. So I guess we were just keen to hear how you've continued to get better with that muscle of like, right, today's a new day. So I wasn't sure what he was going to sort of say to finish that.

I think the muscle of today's a new day and also like feeling it is like, you know, it gets easier. You hear it time and time again, right? And every time it gets a little bit easier, the rejection, the nos, that the bad things are happening. And I don't think you take it so personally. Come the end, I think the first few times you do take it personally, go, you know, it's because of me or they're leaving me or whatever it may be. To now it's a case of just like that's just what happens. So just, you know, just, you just have to live with it.

So I've got 5 final questions I'm going to ask you, but before I do, I'm interested to get your thoughts on this question, which is, but in your opinion, what do you think is the most important action or KPI that contributes to recruiter success?

Um, yeah, I, I think it's, um, I think recruitment is a contact sport So I think the most important action is speaking to as many people as possible, as clients and candidates, as much as you possibly can, getting on the phone and speaking to people. It's pretty old school, right? But I think that that's the key thing, speaking to candidates, speaking to clients. I can't put any—

Yeah, fair. So final questions. First one, yeah, if you could, if you could change the industry, what would you improve?

Yeah, um, yeah, I just, just the overall standard. Um, I think recruiters get quite a bad rep, um, and we're probably tarnished with a brush of, um, you know, the guys that aren't so good. So yeah, for me, it's just making sure that I don't know how you could do that. This is why I quite like the recessions, because I think it's almost like a bit of a recruitment cull. I think at some points, like, every man and his dog is a recruiter. And I think sometimes when it gets to a recession, the people that are faking recruitment probably don't make it. And I think just because of that, the actual industry standard goes up a little bit. But yeah, that would be, that would be how I don't know how I'd improve it. Maybe a recruitment exam or something of the like. But yeah, that's a better all-round, better all-round standard.

Yeah. What book have you read that has had the biggest impact on you or something that you've listened to if you're not a reader? Just what What have you consumed that's had a big impact on you?

I recently listened to the Gypsy King's book.

What book's that?

The Gypsy King's book.

Okay, nice.

Yeah. In terms of books, I'm probably more of a listener than the reader. But yeah, I think more like motivational support and, and how people battle through, you know, some of the darker times and how they come out, come out on top. So that, that, yeah, those types of books are, are, yeah, I fancy.

So this ties quite nicely actually into a question that Zev sent me, which is he wanted to know why you didn't become a full-time boxer after all the success you had on the amateur circuit.

Well, yeah, that's a very Questions. Very good question. Um, but, um, I did this boxing thing, and listen, I've never done boxing in my life. Um, and I think it was Zero to Hero, and it was like 40 people and they got paired up together. Um, and they made me the captain for that, not because I was the best boxer. I was, I was a pile of shit. Um, but, but again, I was, I was the person that put my hand up first every time we they did something, I was like, right, I'll try that. I'll stick myself out my comfort zone. Um, but no, it's, is that my belt? My belt reads 1-0 and I'm retired.

I love that. Um, what, what did you spend your first biggest commission paycheck on?

Um, I actually, it was actually like 3 months into, um, into my time at Opus. I'd, um, I had like a £60,000 month. It was like, it was incredible. It was just everything went my way. And there's a couple of things I did with that. One was there was a person that worked at a previous company that said, he said I'll never amount to anything and I'll never, I'll never, I'll never put the big paychecks in. And so one of the first things I did with that was I sent him a I sent him an email. So, hello. His name was Ben. Hello, Ben. How you doing, mate? And he's like, yeah, no problem. How are you getting on? I said, I said, this is quite a crude thing, but I said, listen, mate, it's my £16,000 paycheck, you dickhead. I was one of my first acts and that filled me with so much like, I know it's just me saying it, but that filled me with so much joy being able to prove someone wrong, right?

Uh, yeah, yeah, fair. No, thank you for sharing that. Respect.

With the paycheck, I actually, yeah, actually, yeah, I actually booked a honeymoon and paid for my wedding, um, with that paycheck. So yeah, that was the first.

Final one, Tom. What's the, uh, what's the ultimate goal for your recruitment career?

I don't know. Again, I like, I don't know. I'm like What I'm at the moment, I'm enjoying myself. I'm enjoying myself and it's going well and I'm enjoying the ride. So ideally, where would I like to go? I don't really have a clue, but I'll keep on the ride until I'm not having fun, right? So where could I go? I'd like to be in a position where we have feet on the ground and expand our Manchester office to have an office in London, to build this office. And in terms of like the end game, could I be in a position where I could become hands-off and start up a career in golf? Or I'm not really, not sure. We'll see where it takes me, but I don't really think too far ahead. And I think that can be dangerous. At the moment, I know where I am and I know I'm enjoying myself. Yeah, we'll see what it takes, man.

I love that, Tom. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for being so candid, honest. I love your positive attitude and really excited to see where sort of Amber go over the next couple of years. So thank you for coming on and sharing your story.

Thanks so much, mate. Appreciate all the time. Thank you.