Toni PhoenixColes - Balanced work culture & why consistency is a key trait for successful recruiters

Welcome to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm really excited to be joined by Toni Phoenix-Coles, who is the Managing Director of Digital Gurus. Toni entered recruitment straight out of university after graduating from the University of Leeds, and since that moment she hasn't looked back. She's worked in the industry since 2006. Within that time, she's worked for multiple recruitment brands where she has consistently accelerate her recruitment career and progress through the ranks. However, since 2011, Toni has worked for the Rethink Group, where she has progressed from team lead, head of practice, and now more recently becoming the managing director of one of the recruitment brands within the Rethink Group, Digital Gurus, to drive it forward. Toni, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm really looking forward to chatting with you.

Likewise. So we're recording this the day after England semis. So if either of us are quite on the ball, bear with us. Good job we're not recording this. Yeah, good job we're not recording this. Yeah. Day after Sunday, on the Monday. So where we always like to start on this podcast is really the— which I'm sure it's something that you've thought a lot about in your career, but basically it's the million-pound question. Like, in your opinion, what characteristics and traits do you think make up a highly successful recruitment consultant?

Okay, so in my experience, both personally and then everyone else that I've worked with, there's a few key themes that for me are just critical. So one is consistency, absolutely vital. Hard work, but working really smartly. So like, the first few years in recruitment are by far the hardest, you know, you get paid more as the years go on and it gets a bit easier for you, but that's as your network grows. And things start becoming easier for you. So I think doing things consistently and always doing what you say you'll do at the time, it can be really, really small. And for me, like, just how either, how organised you are or how much knowledge you can retain. Because again, you know, there's one ecosystem, it's the same people and it's the same markets, etc., that you're working in. But as your knowledge grows, if you start a really solid foundation and continually just work away at it, improving day by day, then I think it's almost a fail-safe that you're going to be a successful recruitment consultant.

Yeah, interesting. And then just, and we'll talk more about this, but just interested, the consistency piece, that's obviously something that, yeah, you'd probably find a lot in, yeah, high-performing recruiters is the question. But like, how, how do you go about, I guess, identifying maybe a precursor to someone that could be consistent if they haven't got recruitment experience? Out of interest, like, what sorts of things would you look for these people to be consistent within their life then?

For me, I always like to see how well people can deal with, like, quite complex situations, and it can be anything. So something really complex that they've learned, you know, musical instrument, a different language, different subject, or just a situation that they've been in. And if they're natural problem solvers, always looking for solutions, they think really broadly and open-mindedly. For me, that's a really strong example that they're going to have the right traits. Obviously, there's all the buzzwords, yeah, so resilience is critical, you know, this industry is really tough, so I look for examples of where they've evidenced previous resilience before. Tenacity, always a buzzword that's there, but again, you know, if you don't keep going, and that's why so many people drop out of recruitment within the first you know, 12 months, 2 years, probably maximum 3 years. And then, yeah, I tend to think if they're in it longer than 3 years, they'll probably stay in the industry.

Yeah, yeah, that is interesting. And then just because we're, we're talking about it, obviously you, you graduated university, uh, obviously. And how many sort of, um, do you hire a lot of grads, or have you in the past?

A degree is absolutely not necessary for recruitment, in my opinion anyway.

Yeah, yeah, sure, agreed. I guess the question was, do you, like, in your personal opinion, the sort of younger people coming through, do you think they have more resilience or less resilience? Out of interest.

That's harsh. All my, my younger brothers and sisters, it's hard to say, you know, you can never be in anyone else's shoes unless you've been in their shoes, right? So yeah, yeah, stereotype, everyone's gonna say they have it easier, of course they are, but I don't subscribe to that. Every individual is unique. That's the beauty of the world we live in, right? So, yeah, I could not put that stereotype on. I'll treat everyone with individuality.

No, I agree. Obviously, you do see people say that, like, call it the snowflake generation or whatever you want to call it. And I was interested to hear what you said. And like, my view is I was like on the cusp, really. I was born in 1993. And like, for me, when I think of resilience of like, I have a younger brother who's 4 years younger than me. And even below that, like, for me, resilience, like, if I had to go through school and my younger life, like, with, like, all the tools of today, social media particularly, all these types of things, like, let alone get through that without social media was hard enough. You had to have a bit of resilience.

Absolutely.

Let alone with social media to get through that, be mentally strong or, like, feel like I, I think Yeah, it's just a different type of resilience, I think. It's just different challenges. It is. That would have been so hard. That would be so hard for people to go through that.

Yeah, agreed. And I feel like it's our responsibility to use experience to try and nurture, you know, younger people and what they're coming through in terms of, you know, modern-day problems that they'll face. And the social media is a huge one around mental health and building up that layer of resilience. I mean, the world right now is crazy.

Yeah, exactly. And just on this topic, so where I want to start, obviously there's a lot here to sort of unpack. Really keen to focus on the last couple of years because I think that's obviously what you're going to be really excited about, what the future may look like, the journey that you've been on. But always like to start at the beginning. I've recently been sort of interviewing, doing like a specific, like 10-episode series focused on like entry-level recruiters interviewing people that are sort of in their first year, two years, to hopefully help people that are entering or early stages. Again, with you and how you entered the world of work, like knowing what you know now, what advice would you give Toni graduating out of Leeds? Like if you were graduating this year, like what advice would you give her out of interest if you're going into recruitment?

Yeah, brilliant question. I think being really truthful around what the job entails is the most important thing. So rewind 15 years ago, and it was a story. I remember being so excited to accept this job. I hadn't looked for any other job, and that's because I was done. I was pre-closed. I was so grateful for this £17,000 a year job. I didn't even know I wanted it. I just, a friend recommended me. He got a grand for it. You know, I was just sold to all the way. So I, you know, I would never do that. I couldn't put anyone in that situation now because the reality of it is you're going to do that job for, 35, 40 hours a week, you're going to think about it for X number of hours more, you know, that's that person's life. So, to try and answer your question, I would say, do you love working with people? It is a true meritocracy. So the fact that you can have a huge amount of influence on your earnings, potential earnings, career, but it's also going to be around who the people are, the type of company that you work for. So I think If you're really competitive, then, you know, it's definitely going to be a rewarding career. But also, if you like to see progression, if you are really open-minded, and also maybe if you're quite passionate and quite technical about a particular area, because I do think if you learn a market, the best people for me are the ones that have an additional interest in that market, as opposed to the market just being the vehicle of, you know, that their sphere, if you will.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, and it's really interesting. Again, I know it's like a buzzword, progression, but one of the things that I've been asking these people is like, what, what is it that sort of— yeah, what type of recruitment business do young people actually want to work for? Like, what actually lights them up? What are they motivated by? Is it the opportunity to buy Rolexes or go to Ibiza and these types of things? And those things, for sure, these people will enjoy, and you get that camaraderie and you make friends, and that is definitely something people want. But if that's sort of what you're leading with, I think you're missing a trick because the real answer is progression. That's what they want, is progression. And I think that's, that's what I think is great about recruitment and why it's such a great career choice. And I think, uh, and I think that's, that's what I think really needs to change, is like, it needs to be less of an accident, I think, because it can offer people so many different things where they can take all of those different skills into different industries.

Yeah, I feel like we're making some headway with that because we've had some people who I've hired in the past that have actually said to me, I want to go into recruitment, I've researched it, and I was really surprised at that. Yeah, how they researched it. But I've got a sister and she's 22, and to go back to your question, I think, right, how could I— I mean, I wouldn't try and sell the recruitment industry to her because I don't think it would suit her as much. But actually, I think I hit a point when I was about 27, and I don't know if this was ego or anything, but all the skills that I'd acquired in recruitment, you know, the real transferable skills, being confident, holding meetings, negotiation, etc., I really felt like I could go out into the world and almost do any interview and hold a really successful interview. Now, obviously, I couldn't go and be a doctor because I didn't have those qualifications. Anything that wasn't very, very specific qualifications, I felt recruitment had given me all this. I backed myself, and I think anybody could do that. So even if you're not that sure, it's such a rewarding career to develop you as a person. But then you need the right company, don't you, that supports you, at least the right group of peers anyway.

Yeah, and just on this point of, like, early on, because it's interesting, like, you're completely right. So one of the questions that I've been asking them is, like, 'What has recruitment given you that you least expected so far?' And the most popular answer is confidence. And I just think like, how, how many people in this world would love to be more confident in themselves? And I think there's been so many cool stories already where people were like, 'Look, I wasn't the most confident person, but now I've been in environments where I'm speaking to people that are much older than me, different cultures, etc.' And that's given them, like you said, like that sort of— and then that's even like, we're talking first 2 years. First year in and they feel like that, let alone 5, 7 years down the track where you've got even more of these things. So I think it's amazing. So just final point on this because I was keen to get your thoughts on it. If you've— did you say that was your sister? Did you say?

Yeah.

So the thing that I've noticed, I'm keen to get your thoughts on this, something you may have seen in younger people, perfectionism. Is something that I've really noticed, which I think is they're putting— basically they're putting themselves under so much pressure for things to be perfect. Right. And I just found that fascinating. I don't know if you found that, if maybe in your sister, like they're so caught up on like, I've got to get the perfect first job out of university. This has to go well, da da da. And like, they're really concerned about everything, like working out and they're like super young. I mean, I'm only 28, but for me, it's just like you double down on experiences rather than perfectionism. But you're not going to know what you want to do unless you have more experiences, you taste more things, you know?

Yeah, definitely. I haven't experienced that in my family situation. Like, all my siblings are younger than me, but I can totally see where you're coming from. But I think that's, again, the responsibility of whoever's interviewing, whoever's going through those processes, and maybe That's kind of the society that we're in, and it might be again attached to social media.

Yeah, it could be. Yeah. Yeah. It's comparing, seeing your mates who've got the perfect job in line with their degree and stuff like that.

It's tough. Instagram story, you know, everybody's, you know, you got to take it for what it is.

Yeah, for sure. So to wrap this up then, like, I'm keen to really, because from what I can see from your journey, obviously worked at a few different companies and then Obviously, I've worked at Rethink for the longest, so I'm really keen to unpack that. But like, how would you— always interested— like, how would you describe your first— like you said, it's typically the hardest, right? You're building your network, there's so much that you're learning. Like, how would you describe your first couple years in recruitment? Like, was it really difficult? Like you said, like, you didn't really know much about— like, how would you describe your first couple years?

Brutal.

Really?

Yeah. I mean, I was, you know, quite extroverted, played sports, played in university sports teams, so culturally, I worked in an environment, it was an S3 company, and, you know, it is brutal. I was at my desk every day, half 7, because I was the newest. You had to get in to show willing, otherwise there was quite disdain. And then you are the last to leave. I mean, I was really lucky. I lived about 5-minute walk away. This was in Leeds from the office. And I just thought, how is anyone else doing this job if they're traveling half an hour? I was knackered. All day, every day. Expectations were really high, really out of my comfort zone, cold calling, sounding like an absolute wally. But then also, like, learning a technical market, you know, like, recruitment is recruitment, right? So we place people and hopefully we understand, like, the culture of organizations, but actually the specialisms, the real niches within those roles. I did Java development at the time. I'm not the most tech savvy. I certainly didn't know what Java was, and I certainly shouldn't have been on the phone to CTOs, heads of development, trying to just navigate my way through, just talking, you know, a load of nonsense, really. So it's really, really hard learning something, and the expectations were really high. So I found it really tough, but I enjoyed it. I went out a lot, very sociable. And it got easier, but yes.

So a couple of things there that I just want to unpack. So first one is, so you, so it seems like the way you describe that, like speaking to those types of people, not, not really knowing a whole lot, like you just push through and maybe had more of a mentality of like fake it till I make it sort of thing.

It seems like there was no choice. Or get sacked.

So, yes. So, okay. So this is what I want to ask you, because I'm sure you've seen this turn up in people in your time of leading people. And this is really common. So around that period, I think some people can like, that can really paralyze them. And I don't want to label it with people like with imposter syndrome and like use that really easily. But like, that's typically the word that comes up. And I've definitely found this in interviewing less experienced people where They're like, the quote that I found really funny was like, this guy was like, something I really found difficult was, yeah, speaking to MDs, like these really senior people. And 2 months ago I was sitting in the library, like preparing for my coursework, whatever it is, you know what I mean? So like, there is that like imposter that shows up like, fucking hell, like, should I even be like, who am I to be speaking to this person? And like, so how, what, I don't know what, it seems like you just like, just, yeah, like you said, there's no other choice, but like, What would your advice be to work through that for other people listening to this if they've got that showing up in their early on?

Yeah, for me, a couple of key themes that are really like, they're part of me and they work for me. And it just took a little while to have the confidence, really. So one is just always be truthful, always. Because the thing is, you can't argue with the truth. It is what it is. So whether you don't like it, unfortunately, because it's the truth, you're never going to, you know, you might have some regrets and all of those things. So, you know, I'm new to this industry or I'm new to this market. I haven't been doing this job very long. Here's what I'm trying to achieve. I'm trying to, I'm going to help you try and get a new role and use that to your advantage. You know, I have started. So somebody else might ring you and they're going to be hitting KPIs, are going to be ringing 20 people. I need my first deal more than anything. You look like a great candidate. I'm going to spend all my time getting you this job. To always just be truthful. And then people, you know, hopefully good people, they will, they'll see through that in the best possible way. And then the other thing is, Recognizing that people are people. So job title or not, whoever you are speaking to is another person. They're a human being. We're all born, I'd say, equal. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Just accepting that. And again, you're going to have loads of people that haven't got the time for you and they're a bit rude. That's about them, not about you. So if you're really honest from the get-go about why you're making that phone call or what you're trying to do, that person doesn't like it, that's more them than it is you. And then you just move on to the next one, because not everybody will be like that. And then you've got those little golden nuggets and you've just got to take some celebration from those mini successes.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I think, yeah, great. Own it, like you said, like just really own it. And just like you said, there's, you can't, it's the truth, right? So that, like, own it. And then, yeah, I definitely got caught up on that on a bit on like, just especially when sometimes a lot of recruiters start on the candidate side, they get comfortable with that. They're like, right, smash it now, speak to loads of candidates. And it's like, oh, Right, Tony, now I want you to do some BD. Like, fuck, I've just got used to speaking to candidates. Yeah, it's mental.

But the thing is, they're all people. No one's trying to tell you exactly, I'm a robot to a dog to a person. Yeah, just talking from one person to another. So get rid of all the labels in your head.

Yeah, exactly. You're completely right. So then the other point was, like you said, like you— yeah, you literally said, like, surprised how these people did it and traveled 30 minutes. And I do think this definitely contributes as to why the turnover can be high in recruitment is burnout. And I think a lot of recruiters can burn out in those first couple of years because of some of the things. I do feel like the environment that you described, I would say, is less common in today's market. Might be wrong.

Yeah, I think so.

I think, I think I would like to think that most companies, like, the expectations of, like, if I don't show up at this time, I could be fired. Like, I feel like that's definitely been watered down for sure. But like, I don't know, being through that yourself, being involved in shaping cultures yourself now, like, I don't know, I don't know, how can we go about making sure that, yeah, we're doing more to keep people in recruitment in those early days rather than potentially grinding them to a halt and they're burning out? Do you know what I mean? Like, how, why, why wasn't you, why didn't you burn out? Like, why was you able to just power through?

And yeah, I probably did burn out a few times, but I did actually consider leaving the industry a few times. I took a lot a lot of holidays, which helped because I was doing well, so I had more commission and that's how I spent any commission I ever got. But again, like for me, I just think it's mental. Like, what are we actually trying to achieve, right? All businesses, they're trying to achieve deliverables and output. So why is there so much interest in times and durations and KPIs? Honestly, I think it is mental. I had this one lad who worked in our team and he was just useless in the morning. He hated it. He was a graduate. He'd probably been sleeping till 2 o'clock every day, and he must have been late, no word of a lie, 4 out of 5 days every week. I thought he was great though. He had so much talent. He's actually gone and done them. He's now a professional gambler in Vegas, right? He's always wanted to. Yeah, it's one of his lifelong dreams. And you know what? He handed in his notice with me 12 months early. He's on a 4-week notice because we had such a good relationship, as I hope I would with most people, but it was to support him on his dreams. Anyway, the long and short of it, we just got rid of the hours. It was like, here's what I need you to deliver in a week. I don't care when you do it, but we will have to have a conversation. Now, of course, there's downsides to that, which is what if the culture doesn't work, the team aren't all together? Well, the pandemic and working from home has proven that that's actually a load of nonsense. We all just had these preconceived ideas, didn't we? 2 years ago.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So let's, let's talk a bit about, um, so obviously you joined Rethink Recruitment in 2011, so by that, by that point you'd obviously quite established like your being a recruiter, and had you already, had you always done like similar markets?

So I've always worked in software development, um, yeah, but when I'm— I'll be really honest, I still didn't love recruitment that much even though I'd done it for I think about 6 years at the time. I only took the job at Rethink because it was in Manchester and a couple of things had gone wrong in Leeds and I was like, I need a bit of a fresh start. And actually, I said to the CEO at the time, I don't actually love recruitment. I don't value it that much. And I didn't. For me, it felt really transactional, everything that I'd ever done. So, and I was just like, I'm just being honest because if you're on it, like almost going back to my original point. Yeah. Seemed quite taken aback from it, but he accepted that honesty. But he rang me about a week later and said, I'm just not sure you're for us, you know, because I need people to like the job. So I was backtracking a bit and then everything changed when I joined this business. Everything changed because I started really seeing the value of the job. So, like, everything that you say, you know, everything that you say to candidates in terms of, I want to get you a really great job, one that fulfills you. You know, it's a lot of time. You spend more time at work than anywhere else. And then I was like, right, that's got to be for me. I've got to live and breathe what I'm saying to everybody else. And just the, my lens changed how I viewed it and actually getting people jobs that satisfied them, that made changes in their family or their choices. They were all the things why I'd got into recruitment and I was doing that, but in the tech world. So it then became really, really satisfying and everything changed.

So when you joined that business, did you join as a biller? Because it says like team leader, was you managing a team straight away or?

Yeah, billing team leader. So, which was, I'd been doing that a little bit in my role when I was at a company in Leeds, but I mean, it's really hard. Billing manager is definitely, in my opinion, the hardest of all the roles.

We're going to talk, we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about that. So like, so just for clarity then, so obviously joined Rethink at that point. And so how many, how big was your team that you had to manage when you joined?

Do you remember? 4 people.

4 people. Was you doing a new market at that point then?

No, they also did software development, but then it kind of— the markets had changed a little bit. So you work for some companies where it's very specific niche and you have to either pass business away or you might get splits, etc. Whereas it was different at Rethink because if you've kind of gone into a customer, you almost could own that customer, therefore do other roles with them.

Pros and cons, really.

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, similar, always within technology though.

Yeah, always in technology. Cool.

Yeah.

So then obviously stayed with Rethink for like nearly 5 years and progressed to head of practice. Cool. So let's just talk a bit about this billing manager piece then, if that's okay, for the next 5-10 minutes. Because as you said, it is a, it's definitely like one of the most challenging and I always hear that. So first question I have for you then, because of the way that you joined this business, how did you approach leading a team that didn't know you? Because normally it's like, you build well, someone gets a good opportunity, you've gained that respect, and it's like, 'Ah, Toni's got the promotion, she's great, get it.' But you've gone into a position where no one knows you, you haven't got trust, you're gonna have to establish that. You may even be doing, you might even now be doing a patch that you haven't quite done before. So how did you approach that out of interest?

Okay, so twofold really. I've always had the attitude, I wouldn't ask anybody to do anything that I wouldn't do myself. So from the get-go, it could be literally anything, doing any kind of awkward calls. I was just very front and center with everything I did. It's really important for me, lead by example, show that you're doing everything. So I cracked on straight away, you know, making phone calls, having difficult conversations, always at my desk, always in front of people. Believe a lot in that coaching by being around, you know, that environment. You see lots of people walk off, don't you, in rooms doing those phone calls, either because it gives them more self-confidence or because they don't want to be heard. Whereas I just, I always just did everything as it was in front of everybody. And then the other thing was just, I had a, I genuinely really care about people. So getting to know them, finding common ground, and just building relationships. So I just did that quite early, and that comes quite easily to me. So just building some trust within a team and then just being myself as well and leading from the front. It's gotta be done.

Got it, got it. So obviously I know, obviously the sort of type of leadership role that maybe you've been in the last couple of years is a bit different. So I guess you can sort of tie this all together from maybe what you've learned, but just keen to learn really, like, so what I continue to find speaking to agencies around like what learning and development looks like for them and things like that, like a really common area which is a quite typical blind spot, is definitely the leadership piece because of the typical journey that billing managers will find themselves, like they'll go on, or like it'll be the top billers that go into management or whatever, right? And a lot of the time they won't get any sort of leadership training or support on that. They just have to, yeah, learn the hard way really. I guess if you, yeah, if you were to, I guess, encapsulate a lot of the things that you've learned maybe into like, I don't know, 1 to 3 things, like if I'm some, because a lot of people that listen to this will be aspiring leaders for sure. Like when we're sort of finding out, um, where people— what sort of people's ultimate goals are for their careers, it's, it's either being a top biller or they want to lead and manage a team. So like, knowing what you know now about leadership, like, and I'm on that journey at the moment, I don't know, what would your advice be for me? Like, top 3 things that you think could have a real impact on me getting more out of my leadership approach or being a leader out of interest?

Okay, I think listening is absolutely key, so listening to everything around you, really listening to your team, taking the time to listen, taking the time to listen to managers, just the board, you know, anybody that's there, because actually a lot of people in my experience, they haven't done, it's very tell-focused. I think—

Just on that, sorry to butt in, but I do want to say it, So I love that you started with that. So are you familiar with the brand Gymshark?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the reason why I bring it up, I brought this up recently, but I just think it's mint, basically. So I absolutely love Ben Franklin. I just love the gen— Yeah, I love the gen— I just think, I just love the way that he, I don't know, the way he comes across, big into humility, these types of things. But obviously he brought in a CEO 6 or 7 years ago and like, and now he's just been announced CEO. Been on a few podcasts recently talking about why, and he said one of the main things that he learned from the CEO, because he wasn't ready at the time, was that people management piece. And the thing that's really stuck with me around this listening piece is something that is like a bit of a mantra this guy always says, is like, um, if you're gonna ask how someone is and you're not prepared to listen to the answer, then you've got it wrong. Do you know what I mean? And I love the fact you started that listening. I think that's so— like, how many people, managers or leaders, will go, hey, Tony, how are you doing today? And like you know they're not listening to your answer, or like, don't make the time to listen, you know what I mean? So like, that's the first thing, isn't it? Like, this can all start from actually listening, like compassion, listening to your people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. Um, I think, like, I'm fascinated by like sports teams, and I've probably got— I probably use quite a lot of football analogies because I like— and my team will be laughing their head off if I've got this classic one that I always say, like, and it's— I'm kind of digressing a little bit now, so it's okay, it's okay, in a minute. But, um, I always say I don't need a team of number 9s. I do not need everyone to be top billers firing in all the goals, because actually no team has a team of number 9s. You've got your James Milners, right? Yeah, your left-backs, your right wings, your keeper. I mean, how important is that goal. So when you've got this team and you've like less experienced people and joining businesses and they're nervous and like, how, you know, I'm so far away from that top biller and all their anxieties jump in. No one's asking you, no one's asking that whole team to be top billers. Everyone can have an equal level of contribution by their input. So just to remember that, but I have digressed. So let's go back to leadership.

It's okay. So we started with listening.

Yeah.

Like really make sure you listen would be your, like, leadership advice from what you've taken on your journey. Yeah. What else comes to mind?

And then for me, I think why I said that was because it's kind of like, I think of how sports managers are, like, so for me, being a leader is being part of that team. So thinking, like, in terms of flat hierarchy, everyone is equal. Okay. Some people have more experience, some people have more knowledge, everyone is equal. So having a leadership style where you recognize that that team around you I wouldn't be anywhere without the people around me, my family unit, my work unit. So it's spotting the team around you, what they're good at and where you can support them with and where you can challenge, but also acknowledging what your own ones are, you know, and being really open with the team about that. And people, you know, they empathise with that, you know, they have that understanding, and I think you build better relationships with your team. So for me, from a leadership style, just being human. And then if, you know, if we're thinking of that category now of people that are wanting to become in those leadership roles, yeah, start starting small. So mentoring somebody, offering themselves out, don't wait for somebody to come to you. In fact, here's another key one. I've never ever been in a position, I've always just, I call it assume as if. So I will act in that role anyway. I've always done that. So I was acting like the MD before I was the MD. I was acting as a senior consultant before I was even told I could be on the gateway to be a senior consultant. So act as if, you know, go and assume what some of those things are and just evidence them so that when those individuals move into that leadership role, it's as though they were already in that.

Yeah, I love that. And I've heard that a lot on here, so I guess I just want to Just sort of zoom in on that a bit, just to hear what you think. Like when you say act as if, like how do you actually do that? Do you know what I mean? So like, let's say I'm listening to this right now and I do want to be the director of this business, et cetera, but I'm at the moment managing a few people, blah, blah, blah. How can I actually go about showcasing that I'm acting as if I am that already? Is it just doing extra, things, or like, is it a mindset thing? Like, I don't know, how does that actually—

a bit of both, I guess, depending on where you are exactly. So if we kind of work from the top and we'll go down, so if you're trying to get into that director piece, there are things that a director is expected to know. So I think there needs to be some kind of self-analysis of where your knowledge is. For example, figures, right, the financials. Do I know what a P&L looks like? Do I even know what EBITDA means? How does that get broken down? Some businesses will have more knowledge and transparency around that and others, I mean, I've hired people before and they've never even looked at a P&L because they've just been told, do this number, here's what you'll get paid at the end of it, but they're being kind of treated in this associate director is what a lot of people would term it. So understand what it takes, and if you don't know that, you know, go and seek out that information, go and find out, go and learn it. No one's going to stop you from learning that information. Some businesses are really cagey and wouldn't give all that information. Which is fair enough, go and learn what a P&L is, what profit looks like, what true profit is, what contribution even means. So if you start talking in that language in and around the business and your understanding of it, you're going to elevate your position automatically. I think taking on more, so that can be anything. It's not necessarily doing more. So just taking on more responsibilities, you know, you might— I can't imagine there is a single person listening to this now that if I said to them, What is wrong with your current business? They couldn't give me an answer, right? But don't be a moaner about it. Go, go and find the solution and then present those solutions. Now, loads of people will be sent back saying, no, we can't do that, we've got this. And those frustrations will come out and those people might leave. And that's a shame for the business because they're going to lose good people. But yeah, go and answer all the problems that you're suggesting in your own head, or hopefully not moaning about, but probably. Find the solution and present it.

Yeah, no, I really like that. I really like that. Yeah, if you're listening to this and you have an idea of where you want to go, then I think, yeah, it starts with that self-analysis, doesn't it? Like, what if I do want to be a leader, then how are my leadership skills at the moment? It's all those things, and then you can start there and then go and find that.

So, and sorry, I was just gonna say, even like one step back from that, if you're a senior consultant, you've never managed anybody before, You know, you will, you have a peer group around you. If you spot someone on the phone or that they're having a difficult time, sit by their desk with them and just go and say, like, "I thought that call was brilliant. How did you find it? I didn't hear all of it. Could you tell me a bit more about it?" And just go and role model yourself in and around your environment to show that you're actively going and mentoring and supporting those around you.

Yeah, no, I really like that. And I love that practicality of like, I love that practicality of like, yeah, what, what things do you think the business could do to improve and taking that off your own back and then trying to come up with new ideas and things like that. I think that's a great way to show like what you're about. And yeah, I think that's a great thing. And then the other insight that I've taken, which I think sometimes people miss. So, you know, you said that you really acted as if before you was an MD, you was MD. How many people around you knew that you wanted to be like, you wanted to be where you wanted to be. So what I'm trying to allude to is like, how many people did you communicate internally to be like, hey, this is where I want to— so you know, this is where I want to get to, this is where I'm heading. Like, how much of an impact did that have? And is that something that you did, out of interest?

Yeah, I'd say quite a lot of people. For me, it's really important to be that transparent with everybody around you because for one, they've always got their own mind. Of where they want to get to. So you're always assuming, like, that there might be leaders in our business now that think, well, Toni's told me she wants to be the MD for the next 3 years, that means I now can't be it. So I think it's also really important just to share at the end of the day that there's a lot of growth, um, growth in the industry, growth in the market right now, growth in businesses. So just understanding that there are much broader opportunities and what that looks like. So for me, I would always ways to talk about where I was at right now, but in my career, like in my personal life as well. What things do I want to achieve? I always think talking about it, setting those, holds you really accountable. Also, if people care about you, which hopefully people do work in caring environments, other people like want to get involved on how they can help get you there and how you can help and kind of that exchange of information. You know, why open source has been as good as it has is because everyone's got together and they've made these slight improvements themselves and it's a continually improving process.

Mm. Yeah. And yeah, the reason I bring that up is because I think, again, it comes back to our point of like not being like, if you do want to progress your career, you do want to accelerate, then you can't be like, the best chance you have of doing that is not being someone that sits there and waits for it to come to you. And I think that sometimes some people can miss that, you know, like if I work for your organization and I know I want to get to this position, I want to make sure the people that are going to be involved in that decision know that's something that I want, because the next time they're in some sort of board meeting or business decision meeting, they're going to go, oh, you know what, actually, I had a conversation the other day whilst I was making a coffee. Hishem really wants that position. Maybe he's someone that we could think about. Do you get what I mean? So I think you also got to be proactive.

Yeah, I always have the same statement. Nobody can read minds. So again, whatever position you're in, no one can read your mind. Again, you hear a lot of people, don't you, moaning, I couldn't get this, 'Well, did you ask for it? Did you actually communicate to anybody?' Because it's not actually the employer or, you know, it's not my boss's job to always worry about my career. It should absolutely be an element of it, but it's my responsibility. It's my career. It's my responsibility.

Yeah, exactly. So I want to talk to you before we finish. I want to talk to you about the DG journey, but before we go into that, I want to segue into Couple of things. So one, uh, women in recruitment, I want to talk to you about your journey with that. Two, I want to talk to you a bit about, yeah, how that then— I don't know, what's your journey been like being, um, a woman in a leadership position and a senior position? Like, how— what that journey has been like. Talk a bit about how we can maybe inspire more women in the industry. Uh, and then the other thing, which I think is— which is part of like what re-empted me and you to reconnect on doing this was then the whole sort of raising a family and maintaining your career piece.

Yeah.

Could we start there? Is that okay?

Yeah.

Just so I guess the reason why I want to talk to you about it is because I think I would actually be appalled at the amount of like terrible stories that you would hear from like just women wanting to go to raise a family. They've worked their absolute socks off to get in a great position in their recruitment career. And then like have to go through like a crazy journey of like, one, being terrified to tell their boss that they're pregnant, then bring another human being into the world, then raising them, then like being with them for loads of time, then being worried about coming back, then like, and like that being really difficult and not being supported by the business they worked really hard with, then being penalized potentially. Had a really great lady on recently called Bernadette who basically said like she was a contract recruiter and yeah, she like she got promised things that she didn't get delivered. She got told she's going to keep certain things, she's going to get bonuses, but she didn't get them. Right. So I guess, and I'd be, I'd be so confident there'd be so many stories like that. So I think it's just, yeah, it's just really important, I think, to make sure that women listen to this, know that like if they have gone through that, it's not like, not that it makes it any better, but at least they're like, so I guess what, what's been your journey like? How, how difficult have you found it to raise a family, maintain your career? Like, you really strike me as someone that's clearly been career-driven, focused, wanting to achieve, have, have big dreams. So, like, how have you gone about maintaining that and maintaining your career aspirations as well as your personal family aspirations as well?

Yeah. Okay. So for me, it's always family first. It's really tough. But you know what? If I didn't have a family, you can't tell me that people who don't have families also have easy lives. Again, like, you just can't judge anyone until you're in their shoes. So yeah, I've had 2 kids in the last— my eldest is 3. So even just like being pregnant, you know, was difficult. I was really lucky. I didn't have any qualms telling anybody. I think at the time I was a regional director. Just communicated it. Okay. I did only take 6 months off. So I say only, that was a personal choice of mine. I was really passionate about the brand like Digital Gurus hadn't existed in the North and that was like my baby at the time. So taking that time out and having my son, it was really weird, right? So I had a cesarean, which meant it was a planned cesarean. So I worked until the Friday. Sorry, I worked until the Thursday. My cesarean was on the Friday. Wow. I was still emailing everyone in the morning.

Wow.

You wait in the hospital, you've had some emergency cesareans have happened, so you're a little bit delayed, and I'm just like still in work mode. So that was weird, but that's my personality, right? So, and it took a little while to kind of switch off because then the baby is there and they need you like fully. And then my second time round, my little girl is now 10 months old. So I took 7 months out. I was really good with this. I did give myself all the time off because I think you need these breaks and these resets. So whether you go off and have a baby or have a sabbatical or you have a long holiday, like everyone says, God, if I have a 2-week holiday, like, wow, I did actually switch off on day 8. And you're like, right, okay. Like, life's too short for only switching off on day 8. But it happens, right? Because the job is mental, isn't it? It's nonstop. It's one job where you will never ever finish because there's always more you can do, which is kind of what we love about it as well. So I think doing all of that, it's been really hard balancing emotions because, again, I'm quite an emotional person anyway. But like this morning, classic example, football last night, I had a couple of wines, I took both my children to nursery, and they were both upset when I dropped them at their room. We just moved house, so they're in a new nursery. So they both cried as I dropped them off, right? That was really hard for me. I'm in the car, I then burst out crying. So I've like then got to calm myself down and be like, right, where are the practicalities? Will they be all right? Is the nursery safe? Will they be happy? Yes, yes, yes. Thinking I've got this podcast thing. I'm here. Yeah, I don't— I never carry makeup around with me. So that's gone haywire. And that's just the reality of it. But for me, I'll just talk about that because again, going back to my original point, that is just what's happened. That's not me being crazy, me being emotional, that is just what's happened today. If I can't share what's happening, then what's the point of anything? So yeah, it's really hard. What about—

I was just going to say, what about— I've heard it a couple of times where sort of people have shared, like, when they've come back from maternity, their confidence can be at, like, an all-time low. Like really low work because there's so many different things going on, like leaving your child for the first time, these things. Did you experience any of that? Like, did you have to maybe rebuild a bit of confidence?

Yeah, um, it was probably for me less about the confidence as it was managing extra stuff. Like, your head is already very full, so when you come into work, you're only talking about work. I mean, how many times have we heard in recruitment, you leave your shit at the front door, you're here to work now? The most bizarre sentence I've ever heard, right? Because if we were robots, that might be quite easy. However, of course, there is a level of professionalism where you have to try and compartmentalize things. I fully get that. But I think just, um, for me, it wasn't so much about the confidence, more just the emotions that go with thinking, is my child safe today? Are they okay? What they doing? And then things happen, like even tonight, I really want to pick my kids up My CEO is in Manchester, up from London, and we've got some time together at half 4. For me, it's really important to have that time with him. If I said to him, could we move that forward? 100% wouldn't care. He'd be like, of course, get home, see your kids. But actually, I also need a full day with my team. So it's just prioritizing everything. And the one thing that I will say to any female is, regardless of how organized or efficient you were before, and I felt that I really was, it is new levels once you've had a kid. Because there's no crap that doesn't need to be done. My efficiency levels are through the roof. If something's doing and gets talked about, it gets done and talked about because I am leaving at a certain time. It's not like where you're just a bit late and your partner's pissed off with you because you're now home late. My kid needs picking up, so I'm getting all of this done today because it has to get done today. So if anything, I had a bit of an advantage coming back, I would say.

Yeah, I love that. Right, so let's talk about DG, like last sort of 15 minutes or so. Let's talk about the German DG because I know that you shared with me, and I know you won't mind me saying, like, obviously joined DG when they got acquired by the Rethink Group in 2016. And like you said, it was like your baby because they didn't have a presence in the north, and that was something that you obviously took on and was a really exciting opportunity for you. So like, I guess what I was keen just to dig into initially and then we can finish by like where it's at today, how you sort of navigated things in the last 12, 18 months, how it's gone, how you're feeling about the future. But like, obviously with them not having a presence and it was more down south, they did have a presence with other places internationally as well. Like, talk to me about like what was, I guess what people would be interested in is like, how did you go about expanding this brand up north in the most effective way ultimately? Like, most recruiters listening to this would have had to build out some sort of desk from scratch before, build a business. Like, how did you go about building the DG brand in up north out of interest? What ended up being your strategy and how did it go?

Um, a couple of prongs to that. One was internally creating a culture you know, a raw, fresh culture which was very values-driven. So what are the values I felt were important? And then communicating those with potential people to join that. So what we did, we built something ourselves and we harnessed it and it grew and it was just so real and wonderful and it's continued to grow with that, but it's obviously adapted as the years have gone on. But externally, in terms of actually even just having that brand presence, we at the time, so events and networking wasn't really a massive thing then, like everyone did a thought leadership something or perhaps a roundtable. But I built this group, we called it Digital North, and it was just to kind of use the same word. And it was kind of a privately owned group, private in that you had to request access to it, which I know goes against a bit what I was saying before about the open source element. But it was more so to ensure that the quality was really high.

Right people. Yeah.

Yeah, and what we did, we just gave really, really good content and just shared everything. And again, just the truth of everything, people, like genuine issues that businesses were having at that time. So really not that dissimilar to what you're doing, but within the tech space. And what we found was it just grew like next level. And if anything, Digital North became bigger than Digital Gurus. No one even really knew Digital North was a Digital Gurus thing. We were a team of recruitment consultants doing a presence in the North. It was, it was amazing. You know, the pandemic's obviously knocked that for the last couple of years, but then I was really fortunate. I was able to get our board to invest in the office space in Manchester. So like most places have offices and then they've all got like an event space within their office. Whereas I was able to get the money to flip that on its head. So we actually have an event space. That we have desks in, if that makes sense. So that was a game changer because we had so much flexibility for us. I mean, to be honest, no one needs the investment to do that. Anyone could do that. But I put more focus and also how people want to be, you know, fluidity. They can sit where they want. Let them work. If they want to work from the sofa, if they want to work from the dining room table, if they want to work from home, what's the big deal? Let people work where they feel the best and then support and encourage around that. So yeah.

Okay, cool. Got that. So that's been so— and then just, just trying to make it, I guess, just a bit more practical, I guess, thing like how did that then— I get the how that would have— I personally, I get how that would have sort of massively helped you. But like, how did that then actually translate into like business? And you were like, was it because you had the reason to call people and you form relationships that way? Was it just that you were just building great relationships?

Yeah, a little bit of all of that. But again, going back to my original point, it's like, it's whatever's happening for you right now. So what was happening for me at that time was I had lots of recruitment experience. I was excited by bringing in what was a very reputable brand up to the north. So everybody that I was speaking to, I was just sharing that story because that is what was happening right now. People like stories and the truth. And they, you know, if it is genuine and real, people like that, so it wasn't hard, to be honest. You just got to put in the effort and communicate it, you know. You've got to put in loads of hard work. If you're not communicating anything, nobody's going to know anything. But even just talking to businesses, customers, new clients around what's going on and how you can help, um, it worked for us.

Okay, cool. So let's talk about more recent times then, the last Yeah, let's just keep it like, I guess, pre-COVID and like COVID world and how you've gone about growing DG. I, because I spoke to, and hopefully this will make sense, but tried to reach out to a couple of people in your team to see if there's any questions they'd love me to ask you. And yeah, spoke to Jay and he mentioned that sort of he thought it'd be interesting for you to share like why you've decided to employ the Spotify model at Deegee. So I think the tribe piece, which I think I've seen, and what, like, what, why the benefits or like why you've gone down that angle. So maybe, I don't know, is that enough to prefix like, I don't know what maybe things look like before you decide to go down a path? Is that, does that make sense? Maybe talk a bit about that.

I guess in my experience, something that had always worked, obviously the reason why One of the reasons why I love the job so much is like the whole UK economy is run for me on technology. So any potential client that we're working with will have some form of technology and something I always took extra interest in. There's the tech piece itself, but like I said, I'm not that technical. So it's the people that I'm passionate about and the culture and the performance of how those teams are built. But if I saw a business doing something that I either really liked or really disliked, you know, you use that knowledge, that's That's kind of how people do navigate, you know, they take some of the best bits and hopefully, again, with bosses in recruitment, the bosses where they do stuff that you hate what they do, you make sure you never do that, don't you? So what I noticed was we'd had loads of successes taking some of the good stuff from other companies, and I'd seen the Spotify engineering model. And as I was just watching it, I was like, wow, this sounds so like where we are, but also where we want to be. So the key piece in it really is around having these like small, self-organized autonomous teams. And actually, a lot of our success, particularly like in the pandemic, it's crazy how well we've done really, and I feel so fortunate. But part of that is because the teams operate really autonomously and building these smaller identities in these smaller teams and kind of how we've segmented them, which, yes, it's in tribes, squads, and chapters. So to align with Spotify, it's just really worked for us. So I'm really passionate about that.

So it's the autonomous piece that this is really important. And then how big are these, like, how big are these groups typically? And then is it the— so they all have their own niches and like their own worlds?

I guess so. If I use technology as one, technology is one of our tribes. It happens to be the biggest. Creating squad. So within our tech tribe, we have, I think we currently have 9 squads. So for example, cloud is a squad within our tech tribe, development is a squad within our tech tribe. So then each person within those squads, so they might, we might have 10 dev consultants, they'll each work in different chapters. So it might be basically different languages, but then there's how that whole dev function works. They kind of share a lot of ideas, but it doesn't mean that they can't work with other squads. And that's kind of how the Spotify model is run as well. So they're very self-optimized teams, but then almost, it's not about me setting standards, it's about the teams understanding what works well for them, sharing that information, collaborating a lot, and then almost the de facto standard becomes the one that works the best for everybody, but it's decided by the teams.

Ah, so interesting. Yeah, I'll go there. So you've got obviously tribes, then you've got squads, and then you've got chapters within squads. Yeah. Okay, so what about— how do you make sure, like, how— like, obviously your position within that then is to— or part of the position, part of what you do is make sure that everyone is— although everyone is sort of running their own sort of squad and working what works best for them, etc., obviously there's got to be a sort of golden thread, hasn't there, of like this is where we are and this is where we're heading. So how do you tie that in now? Because I feel like business owners or people will be thinking about that the way you describe that as, okay, well, how do you make sure that we're all aligned on the same vision and mission? Like, how do you, how have you gone about interweaving that?

So 3 key things that I hold by. One, always hire on the right values and behaviours. So within that, you always know that there is alignment from the get-go. Never ever just hire on financial results. Like, that's an absolute no. Second to that is around communication. I personally don't think you can communicate too much, right? So there is a balance with that. But for me, I will regularly say to all staff members, again, like no hierarchy here, here's where we're up to, here are the financial results, here's what we're trying to achieve, here are the things that we've messed up on, here are the levers, here are the stuff, like all that information, communicate that really, really regularly. And it can either be a WhatsApp to all DG, it can be a group email. I've got actually everyone in the Manchester office tomorrow where we're going to run almost like a full day of session with like different components to it around like hyperperformance, data analytics, etc. So yeah, they're the key things for me. And then just finally, consistency. So whilst you're communicating a lot, if something's not working, that's absolutely fine, but at least then communicate that we're no longer doing it Because again, a massive barrier for me was a consultant like, oh yeah, we did that again for a few weeks and then that fell by the wayside and oh yeah, like there's nothing more frustrating. So again, like, think we do do things and then they do fall a bit by the wayside, but then just acknowledge it. We're no longer doing this because of X, Y, Z, or we're going to try this now. So I think just the openness to allow the agility is what people buy into.

Yeah, yeah. Two final things before we finish. One, always hear obviously recruitment businesses struggling to scale and hire for their own businesses. So interesting, you said like always, always, always hire on values, not on their financial track record. So just real quick, what's been your journey or experience on getting that right in terms of like how do you actually go about evaluate, like how do you go about testing someone on your values? Like how do you go about that? In an interview process, out of interest? How's that evolved?

Yeah.

How have you got better at that?

So, has every person I've hired been exactly perfect? Absolutely not.

No, of course. Yeah.

And some crazy stories, like you wouldn't even believe what— and yeah, I've obviously fallen guilty of believing somebody and then having the wool pulled over your eyes. And I, you know, I'd like to think I'm a good judge of character, but that's for another day because there's some really mental stories So I think for me, just getting to know the person, you know, over time you do have your gut instincts, but for me, it's also important to have data-based decisions, not necessarily like gut-based decisions. There's got to be a bit of both. So get to know the person, question them about loads of different things, you know, get evidence, always get references. Now, I've fallen down where I've not got references. Why would you not? From your internal staff, which is just crazy that people don't always do that. And then Just letting other people, like, never meeting someone and assuming that because you think they're amazing that everyone's going to think they're amazing. Doesn't matter that I'm the MD, everybody that's going to be related to that person in the first instance should have an opinion on them. So getting other people involved, it can be anybody within the business, just to create a level of objectivity.

Yeah, yeah, fair enough. And then on the science piece, have you used any, do you use like psychometric testing or anything like that? Or no?

Yeah, I've used plenty of those in my time. I think if you can get a really good one, they're definitely useful, but they should always, in my opinion, just kind of be complementary as opposed to—

Yeah, like add to like how you're thinking about things or— Yeah. Okay. And then the final point and then we can end on like, yeah, how we like how things are looking for Deegee and where you guys are heading. But just obviously you said that like really fortunate that as a business you've performed well. The question really is like, why? Why do you think you and the team have been able to thrive during— I'm sure there's been challenges obviously along the way, but overall looking back now as we sort of really start to come out the other side, that you are in a positive position, why do you think that is?

I think partly due to the hiring strategy, so the team that is currently in DG and that has been all the way throughout the pandemic they are nice people, they are nice genuine people, they want everyone else to do well, it's not just about themselves, so our collaboration is off the charts, every time you will hear somebody sharing or doing something and that's really genuine and that's ingrained as part of our culture, so I think that's been a key thing, but then also, you know, it does take time to build high performance and also a strong culture, so I think we just, we benefited from a couple of years previous where we were almost aligning ourselves to, here's what we're building on, here's where we're trying to get people to. Some people really, you know, we've had like loads of personal bests, but again, it's because we've got a group of people who, again, going back to my original point that I said earlier, they're solutions providers. So we've all been faced with a problem. So it's how can we try and create a solution to the problem that we're in, which could just be there are less jobs, you know, no one's spending, people are getting rid of people. Is finding the solutions around all the granular stuff. And that's what we've been able to translate into what have been the mini successes that has contributed to an overall success.

Love it. Final question then, obviously, was made MD in April this year. So like, what does the future hold next 5, 10 years? Like, what's the, what's the vision? Like, obviously, from DG's point of view, from your point of view, how would you describe the future?

Well, the future, lots and lots of growth in everything. So growth of the people, growth of the staff, where they're going to go on their own personal journeys, growth of customers and clients, growth on the top line and the bottom line, which is where we all want to be, growth of markets, growth of offices. So I'm just really excited about all of that. Yeah. And then for me, you know, I want to take it all the way. So I've got one more job title ahead of me. The CEO knows that I want that.

What, you want to be CEO?

Yeah, I think so.

Love that. Yeah.

And you know, and the reason why I say I think so is that's not right now. So in 2, 3, 4 years, whatever it may be, if I'm in a position and I want that, then hopefully I've put myself in a strong position and acquired any additional skills that I need now to be successful in that.

Love it, can't wait to see it. Tony, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.

No, thank you so much.