Tony Bates -All the successful recruiters I know have had massive setbacks & failures in their lives

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm pretty— I'm gonna be really annoyed if I didn't remember, but I'm pretty sure I'm joined by the, the very first Brummie on the Recruitment Rollercoaster Podcast, um, and that is Tony Bates, who is a Managing Director for IDEX Consulting. Thank you for joining me, sir.

Thank you very much.

How are you?

I'm very well.

Good.

Birmingham's the 6th most investable city in Europe.

Oh, straight in there, just plug it in.

Gotta promote Birmingham here, haven't I? Class.

Um, look, You know where I like to start. Let's get into it, mate. How the hell did you get into recruitment?

Well, quite unusual because I wanted to get into it. Yeah, um, from the start. So I, um, I got turned down for a recruitment job when I was 20.

Okay, um, why did you get turned down? Did you get feedback?

I had no blazer on. Seriously? No, no, I wasn't smart enough. So the guy said, look, why have you come with no blazer? He said, you can't do recruitment like that.

What did you wear?

Um, literally just, um, trousers and a shirt, and the guy rejected me. And, um, 'But it kind of motivated me to get back into it.' Then he said, 'I didn't have the sales skills and no blazer.' So when I got the sales skills and bought a blazer, really tried again. I applied for a role in the newspaper.

Really?

So old school. That shows how long I've been doing it.

Jesus Christ.

Um, did 6 months at a small independent firm in financial services, which is where I'd worked previously, um, and then joined a national that kept approaching. My friend worked at a national firm, yeah, in the same market, and every time he filled a job that I didn't, he'd phone me up and go You know that job you're working? I've just filled it, bastard. So that was his way of recruiting me into the business to say, look, we've got all the jobs and all the candidates gonna work for us.

That's class.

So I then went to work for Reed, uh, did 5 years there.

Yeah.

Um, and then set up IDEX with Matt Green, um, many moons ago, and here I am.

Wicked, mate. So let's, uh, we're definitely gonna uncover that story, mate, uh, that journey. So why that— why did you want to get into recruitment? Like, how did that come about?

Well, I think I've always worked in— I've always been in team environments, I've always been around people, my network's always been quite wide.

Okay.

And I've always been interested, genuinely, this isn't just a spiel, um, in how people got to where they got to.

Okay.

You know, from a background that wasn't that affluent, so I was trying to work out how can I be— yeah, uh, how can I get to where you are? Yeah, yeah. You know, what, why am I living here and why are you living there and what did you do to get there? So I explored, I explored reasons as to how they got the career they were, that they were at, really. And, and I like that aspects of it really. So I got into recruitment, yeah, because my questioning skills had always been the case of trying to find out how people got where they got to, really, which I could then carry out in the recruitment job anyway, using my network to actually put people—

That's really interesting. What else did you— through that curiosity then, did you start reading books and things like that, or was it just that real curiosity that obviously helped you in recruitment massively from day one?

Well, I don't think I read a book until I was about 30, so maybe not then. I don't think that was the case. I think at the time it was just, you know, you, you know, it was a time before Facebook. Yeah, again, I'm showing my age, I apologize for that. But it was different then. So a lot of people I saw in recruitment were generally successful.

Yeah, yeah, you didn't have as much access to information.

Absolutely. So I wanted that success, but I also knew that I had a skill of, of socializing. I could walk into a football changing room, not know any players, and I wouldn't be the best player there, but I could still be able to network and be able to find my way in that group. And I knew that I could carry that into business. I think there's a lot of similarities with sports. Yeah. And business. You know, you walk into an office for the first time, you know, it can be intimidating.

Yeah.

And it's the same when you walk into a football changing room.

Yeah.

And you got the guy that's a brilliant footballer, you got your big tackler, you got all these different— and you adapt.

Yeah.

And I think that's why I knew I'd be good at recruitment because I had the ability to do that.

I like that. I like that. So, okay, so let's break down sort of a bit your recruitment career. So obviously you've been at, obviously, IDEX now that you originally founded with a number of directors. It's like that's over 10 years now, isn't it?

We were just talking about that.

So let's talk a bit before then. So you worked for a small boutique agency, that was your first job, right? Casting it back a bit.

Well, my first job was in financial services.

Okay, sorry.

Yeah, so I got a job and got qualified in the industry that I now recruit. Okay, but I had the option then either to be a paraplanner, which is financial services, or go into recruitment. So I took the option of going into recruitment at that point. It was a real, you know, really big decision at the time. You remember certain decisions in your life that kind of take you in different directions, and at that point I I remember, you know, talking to lots of different people about what I should do, and everyone had a different opinion. So I just went, followed the gut, and went into recruitment at that point.

So yeah, okay, that's interesting. And then it was a small BT agency that you joined initially?

Yeah, very small. There was what, uh, 20, 20 employees at the time. I was the first one to do financial services in that market. Yeah, completely cold desk. Um, you know, at that point we were still faxing Jesus Christ, I know, I know, mate. It's not good. You know, still faxing CVs and that sort of stuff. So it was, it was, it was tough, but straight away I loved it.

Really? What do you love about it?

Um, well, I remember specifically I worked in financial services and there was a guy there who was, was a director of a business. He was my boss by, you know, yeah, he was 10 rungs up the ladder. And it's my first day, I had him as a candidate So suddenly this guy that's been directing me and telling me I should be working hard and doing all this sort of stuff, I'm suddenly then directing his career.

Class.

And he listened and respected me, you know, for suddenly when you, you know, you win the lower levels within financial services, suddenly I felt that I had this ability to kind of guide people and, and talk to people on their level. And I love that aspect of it really. And I knew um, that every time I spoke to a candidate or a client— this still stands now— I genuinely wanted to help them, you know. And I know that sounds really corny, it wasn't about just getting a fee. I was trying to work out, right, how can I make your career better? And like, and even now when I see people that have done that, it was all about the career move, not the job move. And I love the aspect of it, and I still get a buzz now even talking about it now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. And I think in recruitment, it's, you know, the good people— and there are a lot of good people, as you've seen on this pod or listened to on this podcast, which has been amazing to hear some of the quality that's out there. Yeah, but the good people are the ones that actually try and guide people's careers rather than just looking to find them a job at that instance. Yeah, and that's what I loved, and I did that straight away, and that's what—

that's amazing. Okay, so, so, and that was— so you was there, what, 5 months or so, did you say? Yeah. And then you were— and then you went to Reed for like 5 years?

Yeah, I was, I was there for 5 months, and as I say, my friend, a guy called Chris Astle.

Yeah.

Um, was working. He'd been doing that, that sort of marketing for a period of time. He was trying to get me to move across there, and I was saying, no, no, I want to be loyal. Yeah, I hadn't moved jobs, you know. Yeah, um, and literally he was teasing me every time going, yeah, we've just got like 10 jobs in. And I was phoning around 100 people that never heard of us to try and get one average job in, and they were just getting all these jobs called in. And every time he got a job and he'd phone me and tell me and say, look, I've just got this brilliant job, you'd love to work this one, you know, that horrible— so, so yeah, he's horrible and funny at the same time.

Um, so obviously then I then went across and and, and worked for Reedian. And he was there for like 5 years, did you say?

Yeah, yeah, 5 years. So I managed the— I grew the team and then we set up a mortgage division.

Okay.

I oversaw insurance, had about 25 people in the end. Okay. Doing about 2.4 million.

Let's unpack that then, mate. I think there'll be loads of stuff in there. So, um, it's the first observation then, because this helped me in my, um, recruitment career. Obviously I worked in insurance and recruited in insurance. That massively helps, which it seems like it helps you from day one.

Yeah.

So now, so for people that don't have that experience in industry, I'm sure— so have you recruited people now that haven't worked in financial services that are now in your team, right? I'm assuming.

Absolutely, yeah.

So what's from your— because, because you've worked in industry, how do you then encourage them to get immersed in the financial service, in the actual industry that they're recruiting? Is there anything that you tell them to do straight off the bat to get involved?

Well, in terms of understanding the industry, I think you need to understand the people in the industry more than anything, who reports into who in the structure of it. I don't think it's all about understanding the intricacies of what a pension is or, okay, an investment is. It's more about understanding how the structures of the businesses work and what their cultures are. It's changed a lot through the years, hasn't it, in terms of what you need to know and what you need to do in recruitment. But the people that I recruit now aren't, you know, Some of our most successful have never worked in the industry. Yeah, but I know you speak a lot about mentality, but you know what I try and look for in recruiters now is more about how they bounce back. You know, I think we recruited one individual who had got a master's, been traveling, you know, amazing sort of life, everything perfect. And then when she got some, you know, a drop-off or a job, even a job drop-off, it broke her, broke her heart and she couldn't deal with it because she never dealt with adversity. Yeah, so I think mindset, but I look for people now It's not about industry knowledge, it's about how do you deal with adversity and how do you bounce back from adversity? Because as you know, you get a lot of knockbacks in recruitment.

Oh yeah, big time.

And if you can't deal with them, you're not going to go anywhere. So, so I don't think you necessarily— I'm sure— I don't think you need to have worked in the industry necessarily. It's more about character and personality for me that makes people successful.

And then, yeah, it's just about picking up the nuances within your industry by speaking to people.

Yeah. But I mean, we're fortunate at the moment. We've got a lot of people with lots of knowledge. I think we've got 50% of our business have been with us longer than 5 years.

Yeah. So straight away people can and tap into that.

Yeah.

And then a lot of people listening will probably have that knowledge around them.

Yeah.

So it's like, tap into that. Yeah, straight away.

And also, I think there's a team-based approach to helping people. You know, we've got— we have candidates and clients work, come to us, and it's the whole team that helps them. You've got an individual that looks after the desk, but the knowledge is not just from that individual, it's from the whole team.

Yeah.

And the years of experience that they've got, really. So there's lots of— the bigger you are, the more experience you have to draw upon. I think when you first start and you first recruit you might need that financial services experience, but as you go through time, yeah, for sure, less important.

So, um, let's talk a bit about this time at Reed then. So like, obviously you— yeah, like, so what was going on in like the sort of first 12 to 24 months? Like, so did you start— did you— so this guy was telling you, I got this job, blah blah blah, and then you joined there, obviously. So then was you working under him?

No, no, we're working alongside each other.

All right.

Uh, we, we were managerless for about a year and a half.

Really? So it's just you two building?

Uh, me, me and one other guy. Yeah, but we did very little really for a year and a half.

Really?

And that kind of made me realize that the importance of having management. Really?

Um, what do you mean by didn't do very little? Well, a bit lazy.

Well, yeah, I don't think we— we're in a small office, even though we're a REIT, we're just one team, you know.

Yeah, they've got loads of different teams.

So we, we, you know, we didn't see anyone being successful, so we didn't know what success was. And part of everything in life is understanding and seeing success, and yeah, and that's what makes you want to grab it more. So we didn't have access to seeing anybody doing well. The person doing well at that point was doing 50, 60 grand. So we were just, you know, you just tried to be better than the worst person, which doesn't, uh, doesn't create a successful environment really.

Yeah.

And then that's when, uh, Matt Green, who's now my business partner, came in, managed us, um, and took us to the next level and then carried us through.

Okay, cool. So what— so what— how were those sort of first two— first year and a half when you didn't have a manager? Like, was— what was you doing? Like, was it— so was you straight in there building a desk, BD and everything?

Like, yeah, building a desk, but I was, I was I was running blind for the first 3 years. Yeah, I had no, no one telling me what to do, no guidance in terms of— so I just did what I thought I could, I should do, which is just phone people. And really, um, and, and that worked, you know. I had quite a bit of success and, and started to build a really strong network in financial services. Um, and I worked there until, uh, the recession. Um, and that was— anyone that worked through that was, was the most challenging time ever. And we That was just, um, I'd set up IDEX with Matt, or I'd gone and joined Matt, sorry. Um, and then the recession hit.

Really? When you first started?

I walked away from— I was a director level at Reed. Everything was going well. I was kind of the Reed golden boy at one point, you know, really the fastest growing division, most profitable. I walked away from that job to set up IDEX. Everything was glorious. And then the recession hit, and they were dark days. I literally remember calling around and saying, you know, talking about recruitment, and people were laughing down the phone saying, haven't you seen the news? So that was a seriously, you know, imagine going from big director role, yeah, setting up— I was in a really shabby office with leaks and in the middle of nowhere. So I'd gone from, you know, a really Man United striker, I guess, to Grimsby reserves very quickly. Wow, okay. But it was the best thing that happened. It was character.

Look, we'll go into that But I just want to just talk a bit about before that, because there'll be loads of learnings in that. So like, so as you said, so a year and a half, but those 3 years you're blind leading the blind, right?

Yeah, there was no targets, no KPIs.

Yeah, exactly. And then, and then, but by the time you left, you're just saying obviously you grew this team to what was it you said? I think you mentioned the figure.

What did you— yeah, we had in the end, we had 24 people, 2.4 million.

Yeah.

Um, so you know, for re— that, yeah, that's about 100 grand.

So let's talk a bit about how you got to that point. Yeah, like, so let's— so what— so firstly, so a big part of it was you didn't have a manager, so you had no guidance as to, right, so this is how you're going to grow this desk to, to that. So that was a big factor, obviously, that you didn't have a manager.

Absolutely.

Yeah. So, so first, I guess, so what did you learn over those sort of first 3 years that's worth talking about? Over those first 3 years where you felt, yeah, you were just doing what you thought was best?

Yeah, I think the first 3 years taught me that you need structure, you know, you need Um, you need a leader that inspires. Yeah, I think, uh, you know, when Matt did join, we had a leader that inspired us and showed us a way. And I mentioned earlier about seeing success, you know, he wanted, you know, someone that was saying, right, this is what you can have if you do this, if you build this much, this is what you can have. And suddenly made it real. So the first few years, I think it made me realize that you need to, to visualize what you're trying to achieve. You know, talking about doing 5 interviews or 6 interviews a week really doesn't mean anything unless you break it down to actually what that means to you, what the outcome of that, achieving those targets is. And that's what I learned really, is you need to work out where you're going and break down what you need to do on a daily basis to achieve that goal.

Yeah, okay, I like that. And for you, I mean, it seems like innately it was about, yeah, generally helping people, like What is that all— it's always about money, isn't it, really? Like, in the recruitment world, it's like, yeah, yeah, money. So like, was that always attached? Was it always attached to money with you at that stage, or was it what that you could actually build and what you could create and the difference you could make?

Absolutely. I think, you know, when you get your first bonus, the money makes a huge difference, but it, it comes down to more than that in recruiting. When you've earned your first big bonus, then, you know, they're all— it's different, isn't it? So, so I certainly think the element of, of helping people and being being someone. Yeah, you know, that was a big thing for me, is being someone and being someone that I walk down the street and people say, how you doing? And I can— I've placed them 2 years ago, or yeah, you know, a chief exec or a director of business walking down the road and saying hello. Yeah, you know, that was kind of— that was a real motivation for me. And also I think people, um, respecting the work that I did and the way that I worked as well, and the way that I operated, that was a big driver for me.

So that's, yeah, that's interesting. So obviously you've got the monetary there, but then it's everything else that comes with that that really drove you, and that was the sort of North Star that you needed to see what is this, what is these daily things that I'm doing, and it's helping me get to that point.

Absolutely. Yeah, money's not everything, is it really? But then when I got given a manager's role at Reed, and then it was a different part, then I wanted to help other people in the business and I wanted to make them better.

Yeah.

And I wanted us all to go on this journey, you know. I was always captain of football teams. Yeah. It was about, right, this is what we're doing, lads. The world's against us. Yeah, or lads and lasses. Yeah, let's do it. This is what our target is for the year. This is what our target is for the week. And when we get there, we celebrate together and we enjoy it.

Yeah, yeah.

All right, let's—

so, so those 3 years, Matt came in, made such a difference. And then the next 2 years, it seemed like then— so you got that manager's status and then you really grew this team and was really successful. So, so firstly, did you know that you wanted to be a manager? Because obviously a lot of people get forced down that route, like— so up until that point Like, was you a good biller?

Yeah, I was, it was always the, the top biller. And I do believe that not every top biller makes a good manager, but I think I was always outspoken one.

Yeah.

Um, so I could, I think, he's willing to have a difficult conversation. People would listen to me. I think if I, if I agreed with something or I didn't agree with something, then they'd listen to me. Um, so I guess I was the, the naughty boy that was made school prefect and actually worked.

Yeah.

Um, and then I really—

did they say we're making you a manager.

Yeah, yep. So manage this team. So I was complaining about a lot of things and the way we operated, and they said, well, you manage it then.

And then you made the difference.

Yeah, and I made the difference, really, and grew it. And then I realized that I think, you know, there's different ways of managing people, but I realized I did have a bit of a knack for it. I don't know how it wasn't. And then you read the books, and then you go to different training courses and all that, and then you adapt it. And, and, you know, ultimately you try and do right by— yeah, yeah, by you.

So what, um, So yeah, okay. So for you then, for your experience, as you said, like, there's— there'll be a lot of billers out there that aren't made to be managers or forced down those things. Like, what— any advice for people to adapt to that new manager role that they now find themselves in, or anything that's worth talking about?

I think, yeah, I think recruitment generally. I think don't get, um, too carried away with your own sense of importance, really. I really believe that. I think I've seen—

yeah, I like that.

I've seen recruiters that can, you know, double treble, quadruple their earnings in a short space of time, and their personality changes of who they are, um, because money does change you, doesn't it? And I think, and I think it's the same when you go from being a consultant to manager, you know, you still— it doesn't make you better than anybody else. And the worst managers I've seen in recruitment are those that get promoted and suddenly think they're better than everyone else. Yeah, you listen to me because I'm your boss and I'm better than you. Yeah, that's not the case. When you—

did you think that when you got promoted?

I honestly don't think I did. No, no, honestly I don't think I did.

But you've seen that, you've seen that.

But I definitely think there's a point where you start billing and you feel yourself changing and you think, oh, you know, and then if you've got good people around you, they ground you.

Yeah.

And certainly I think it's really important, certainly we try and do it with guys at our place that are billing big, you know, still be you. Don't— you're not better than anybody else based on how much you earn or how much you bill.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, going back to the question of advice to people going into management, Yeah, still be you and still do the right things, and don't think you're better than anyone else because you're doing a— you're, you're the person that has to make decisions.

Yeah, no, that's really good advice. So then how did, how did you go about ramping up that team then, like in those 2 years, right? So then obviously, as you said, became one of the key parts of, um, a really profitable team in, in Reed. And any learnings through that in terms of, um, because I get a lot of questions around, oh, Hishem, can you ask people about what Keith— I mean, I know you touched on it, but we can talk about it now, the of key things to look at as to what makes a good recruiter and these things, because that— you must have got your hiring right to get the team up to that point, right? Obviously there's loads of other things once they're in the training and all that.

Yeah.

But yeah, how did you then end up getting the right people into the team?

Well, the recruitment aspect was based around— it really was based on personality. Yeah. I looked at a CV, but I really do believe that you hire people based on who they are as individuals. And that sounds really obvious, but I think people can get carried away with schools, colleges, structure there.

There's some key things you've got to look out that you know that you want.

Yeah, well, I want, I want someone that, that has had some— and it sounds terrible thing to happen, but all the, all the successful people, recruiters I know, have had something really bad happen to them in their life.

You know, like for the bad, for the bad things that happen to people, in a way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ultimately, I look at the top, top billers in my, in our business.

Yeah.

And they've all had you know, difficult times in life.

Yeah.

And they deal with it and they overcome it and they become better for it. So, you know, we all have challenges to face, and I think it's the people that can demonstrate to me, um, that they've had some really challenging to overcome and they've come through it as a better individual— they're the guys, um, that are successful in recruitment. And, and that's a really basic— we have so many knockbacks and setbacks in recruitment. If you can't deal with those and you don't learn to enjoy them which I know that sounds even more weird, but I actually enjoy failing her.

Yeah.

And I try and instill in other guys to enjoy failure, because if you enjoy failure because you know you've learned from it, yeah, then the job's great.

Yeah.

You know, it's not about all the successes. It's right, try something new, fail, and then if you can overcome that and you learn from it, you're better for it. And I think we're in an environment and a world where people are scared to make mistakes. Yeah, they're scared to say the wrong thing.

Yeah.

Um, so going back to the question in terms of recruitment, I'm looking for people that have tried something, failed, but got back up and learned from it and become better from it.

So how, how do you, how do you test that in an interview scenario? Because there'll be a lot of managers listening, like, yeah, I'll get that.

Yeah.

How do you find that? How do you find that in someone?

Well, simply ask the question, you know, whether it's in work or outside of work, what's the biggest challenge you've overcome? And talk me through that process. How did it make you feel? What did you do? How did you react?

Make them live that failure, right?

I want to see him crying. I want to see him crying and coming out gloriously at the end of it. But honestly, you know, it'd be interesting for anyone listening really is to think about the top 3 billers in your business. And I would imagine, um, you know, I haven't done any family fortune surveys, but I would imagine that if you look at their life and what they've been through, I bet they've had some big hits, big hits that have knocked them down and they've got back up. And I think if we can all, as recruit in the recruitment industry— what's been your big Oh, you can't ask me that.

Yeah, I can ask you that. What's been your big hit, mate?

This question? This question? Well, you know, from a, from a personal perspective, um, you know, I had a— it's not a sub-story, but, you know, difficult-ish background.

Okay, um, talk to me, mate. Share it.

Come on, come on, mate. You got the violins out. But no, you know, from a a council estate in Birmingham, which was pretty rough. I remember first going to, uh, I had a really bad shirt and tie and going to my first job because I wanted to get out of the council estate. Really had to fight people to get to the bus to try and get to my job. Fucking, um, so, so, you know, stuff like that. But, you know, that's not— I'm sure everybody's had those kind of things. So I've had, I've had knockbacks, you know, not getting the first recruitment job was probably the first knockback where I, I thought, right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna come back and show you. Yeah, I'll get myself a blazer when I've got enough money to get myself a blazer. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I did that, and, and I can't remember the guy's name that interviewed me, but if he's listening today, thank you. That's class. And I'd love to meet you one day and stick my two fingers up here.

And what I was going to say, so cool, I really like that. That's some really good insight. And, um, is it— what, what else went on in those last two years then? As you said, you got to— so how, how were your— did you always bill until you left?

Yeah, yeah. So I've always I've always billed. I had one year where I didn't bill, and I felt—

was that a Reed or—

I know it was IDEX.

Okay.

Um, and I felt horrible, really.

Really?

I think, you know, your billings, I didn't— it gives you that kind of little bit of level of respect. And yeah, the managers have always seen in recruitment that don't bill, or at least not bill, but certainly bring in some income or some opportunities or some leads. Yeah, you know, you got what you're doing, you know what you're doing.

Yeah.

Um, so the last two years, what I think— what I did well and what we've done well at Idex really in terms of managing is create an environment for people to succeed. That is, that is big. You know, we, we surveyed people on our database recently and the biggest driver for people joining the business now was culture. It wasn't salary, it wasn't anything like that. So it's culture. So what people want now and what people look for when they join the business, people want a, a good culture, someone where the manager wants them to be successful, will help them to be successful and show them what they need to do. Not just say, right, you've got to do this KPI, that KPI. Use KPIs as a barometer of how they're doing based on where they want to get to. And I think that's the big— the biggest difference.

How did you cultivate that in recruitment, which is a very— like, I've been there. Like, the business that I was in, I've— it was fucking competitive. Like, I knew, like, do you know what I mean? So like, how, how have you gone about cultivating, yeah, the right culture and the right team culture where they know that you're going to help them and you've got their best interests at heart, but you've also got my colleague who I'm competing with technically, best interest as well, do you know what I mean? So how did you— how have you sort of helped that or helped cultivate that?

Well, I think, you know, we're quite quick to criticize in life, aren't we?

Yeah, yeah, totally.

And one of the— going back to when I did read a book when I was 30, um, was about little things as a manager, you know, saying hello, really basic things, saying hello to people, saying well done for a good call.

Oh yeah, I need well done.

Tiny little things.

We all need a little bit of a pat on the back, don't we?

Oh yeah, totally.

And a lot Especially in sales and fucking recruitment.

Yeah, but I think there's a lot of times where people say that's not a good call, that's not a good email, that's not this. Trying to look for people for things that people do well. And you know, if I get someone say well done to me for anything, even as a grown man, yeah, 15 years experience, you still have that silly little smile on my face I'm trying to hide, but I'm really happy.

Yeah.

So I think just cultivating an environment where everyone everyone is happy for everyone else's success.

Yeah.

And I think that comes from the top.

Yeah.

Uh, you know, if you, you know, you, you say well done here and there and you, you raise people's profile internally, but also making sure that everyone is trying to do something different, push themselves, and not worried about making mistakes.

Yeah.

And not criticizing when people make a mistake if they've tried to do something.

Yeah.

If you make the mistake when you've done it, you know, you've been told twice, then that's a bit different, isn't it? But yeah, certainly encouraging people to be better and encouraging people to be good human And I think it's also you as a manager understanding what people's—

what you're talking about, the vision and where they're going, that you can't paint everyone's vision the same with the same brush, can you? So understanding where, where people are motivated to get to and what drives them and those things as well, isn't it? That's big.

You need to get— you need to know your people, don't you? So I think each person in the business, I can tell you exactly what their motivator is and what their driver is. But then at the start of the year, what we do is break down, right, why are you here? Why are you doing what you do? Why are you going to get all these knockbacks? And working out whether they want a car, a house, and then working out how much they need to get that. And then breaking down their weekly KPIs based on what they want to achieve in life. So if you only want to earn that much, that's fine, then that's what you do on a daily basis. But if you want to earn that, this is what you do on a daily basis. So that it's real for people. Everything everyone does every day is real.

Yeah.

And it means something to them. So if you've got your picture— oh, you know, we used to have pictures of cars or whatever we wanted.

That vision board.

A vision, just, just a vision. Because you know what, if you don't know where you're going, you don't know when you get there.

Yeah.

And I think that's really important for people to say, right, at the start of the year, what do you want and why are you doing this job? And this is what you need to do on a daily basis. So using KPIs as a barometer against that, as opposed to something to bash them over the head with if they don't do it.

Yeah.

You could say to people, you know, if you— I thought you said you wanted a car at the start of the year.

If you're not doing this, you're not going to get your car.

And relating it get to that, really. Yeah, giving consultants the freedom.

That's good, mate. Um, so before we go into the dark days, beginning days of IDEX then, so you mentioned obviously the golden boy at one point. So what was your best year billings-wise? Was it at Reed or has it been at IDEX?

Uh, it's been IDEX actually. So I'm not a huge biller because obviously I've got excuses because I'm managing the business as well.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, but I'm certainly not at the million pounds.

What's been your best year? 250.

Okay, yeah, but consistently doing, doing that year on year. So that's my excuse. Yeah, but we've got guys in the business now that are much better consultants than me.

Really?

And that's good. Yeah, and that's good. Surely I think that's, you know, I think if you, if you're growing a business and you want to be the top biller, then your business isn't gonna thrive. Yeah. And that's my disclaimer for not doing more than 250.

Fair enough, mate. Fair enough.

But I mean, we've got it, we've got a guy in our business now that's doing you know, 600, 700 plus.

Fucking hell.

And he's, you know, he's a phenomenon in terms of how he operates and what he does. And he's a technician, and it's beautiful to watch him in action. Yeah, he's superb. Uh, I recruited him 10 years ago, and he's much better than me as a consultant now. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. Um, so I think, you know, if that's, that's what it should be about. I think if you are going into management, going back to your earlier question, yeah, you, you should be looking for people to become better than you.

Yeah.

And don't worry about them becoming better than you.

Yeah. Otherwise you get in the way of their progression.

Um, and so I think you should always be looking—

that takes some real humility though, doesn't it?

And like, it does, and job security as well. Yeah, you know, it does take a lot of humility to do it. But I was always told you should be looking to recruit people better than you when you recruit. If you do that, whether you're in recruitment or in financial services or whatever, if you look to recruit people better than you, then your business is going to thrive as a result of it.

Okay, so why did you join IDEX then when things were all going good?

Um, I think it was—

see, Matt clearly had an impact on you.

Yeah, Matt had a massive impact and he's, you know, he had a big, big draw on it really. I had an opportunity to, to go with Matt when it first set up and at the time I was just having my first kid and yeah, I couldn't afford— yeah, I couldn't afford not to earn for that period of time. So I joined, I think it was about 12 months later, um, and I did that because I felt that working for a big national you couldn't— you were driven by, um, KPIs and targets that weren't in the best interests of the client and candidate.

Interesting.

Um, and, and, you know, I think there was some, some poor practice going on. I'm not saying this— I'm not knocking Reed because it was a good grounding, but certainly I think we could create a business that was built on what our clients and candidates wanted as opposed to what we wanted from a profit level or anything like that. So we actually looked at the clients, looked at the candidates, and built the business back from what they wanted as opposed to the other around.

Yeah, class.

Um, and I love, I love the opportunity, and it was—

yeah, we said it from day one, that's the part that you loved, right? So I totally get that. I mean, but at the same time, if you work for a big corporate, the only way they're gonna be able to manage the success and all that is having those fucking KPIs and everything else in there.

Yeah, I understand it and I get it. You have to have the KPIs. But even now we've got, what, 40, 45 people in our business, but each individual in our business has completely different KPIs. Yeah. Because each person has a different desk, they have different ratios, different goals, different goals, different motivations. So, so we're even at our size now where most firms will get to our size and have the same KPIs across the board. We haven't done that. And each person has their own individual, uh, desk KPIs that they work towards based on what their desk did last year, the type of relationship.

Okay, mate, so let's talk about those dark days then. Let's talk about that. So like, so Yeah, so yeah, so you joined them, you decided just to hold off and say— obviously had your, your, um, children, etc. Join them, financial crisis. So like, let's talk a bit about that because it's hard for me to really comprehend that.

How old are you?

26, right? So I've never had to look older than that, but I haven't, I haven't experienced that, right? And I think there'll be a few people now— Brexit and all these things— like, I'm no, I'm no politician, I don't follow the news Wow. Yeah, yeah. But like, like, let's talk a bit about that. Like, what actually was that like?

I, I think it's hard to put into it unless you actually experienced it. It's hard. I remember at one point thinking, what career am I going to do now? Because recruitment will never be a job again. It was that bad, you know. You're picking up— at the time we were picking up, you know, 1, 2 jobs a month. It was that bad, really. But what we were fortunate of is because we looked after our clients, they kind of felt sorry for us when we set the business. So if they did have any work or any jobs that come They give it to us. So we actually benefited over the big nationals because they kind of— they felt for us, they knew us, they'd experienced me move, they knew I had a kid.

Yeah.

Then, you know, so at least I had the relation. And that's why it kind of taught me to look after your clients always, because always they're the ones that, that look after you and need you. So if it does happen again, I've got enough client relationships, enough people that I've looked after and serviced. Yeah. Hopefully, you know, they'll give us some business. But I don't— I think it's hard to actually put into words, but I'm talking about, you know, it was, it was difficult to get get any interviews, you know, candidates. The hardest thing was candidates that you knew and clients that you knew and had worked with for years were being made redundant, and their whole lives were, you know, on the line, I guess, really, because they've lost their jobs. And you've got people genuinely crying on the phone saying they'd lost the job and not been able to get anything else sorted. So you became from a recruiter to a Samaritan, really. And it genuinely felt that way. But you're also at the same time thinking, I don't know if I'm gonna have a job. I've just done move and that sort of stuff. So I think—

how long that gone for?

Um, it was probably about 18 months. Yeah, a long time. So I mean, you, you've—

how did you— so how the fuck did you get through that?

Uh, with great difficulty. With the support—

I was gonna say, you must have some really good people.

Support of my, my, uh, my now wife and, um, and family. Matt was great. You know, we had to, we had to work around the finances and, and work a lot of things out. Um, but again, that's what I'm talking about. You asked me earlier about my knockbacks. That was a knockback, and it made time. I learned more in that year and a half than I've learned in the 10 years subsequently. Yeah, because you learn what's important. You learn not to get too carried away with yourself. You learn to ride the successes and understand that the fail— you know, I've gone— it was, it was really bad where you've— it can turn at any point, can't it? I think we're in a position now, hopefully, that it wouldn't happen like that again, but it teaches you a lot. And that's where I get the thing where I look for people that dealt with adversity, because I know I learned more from that year and a half, yeah, when times were really tough, than I've done from the 10 years of success after that as well.

Yeah, that's class. And so one of the biggest learnings through that then was like, you really realize that clients are the people that you need to make sure that you really double down on that relationship.

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, always, you know, always do the right thing by everyone, by your clients, by your candidates. I guess that's the thing, isn't it? And if they've done that, then they'll do right by you in future.

Yeah.

But also, as I was saying earlier, don't get too carried away with success. You know, you can bill £2, £3 million, but one economic factor or one change can suddenly change that. So don't get too carried away, because at the end of the day, we're recruiters, aren't we? And I think people get too carried away with their own sense of importance. And I think I think, you know, I've been through times when I've seen someone go from a £300 biller to nothing biller because of one change in the economy. So things can change quickly, so just stay grounded.

Yeah, I like that. Let's talk a bit more about that. I really like how you've mentioned that quite a few times now, because if I think back, look, I don't like— there's— that's why I was like talking about mindset and those things, because like how many, how many really successful billers are getting pulled aside and getting spoken about, about finances, about, about their mental health, well-being, and how to, yeah, keep grounded and have that humility, you know what I mean? And it seems like you really approach it that way. So like, what is it? Has it always been like that? Have you always been open to those conversations too? You said like your big bill is— you have those conversations like to make them aware, like, look, don't get ahead of yourself, do you know what I mean?

Like, yeah, I think the big bill is in our business are a little bit more worldly wise than, than that. But I think it's more when you first come in, in the first 3 years. If you've got people coming, you know, going from £25 grand earnings to £50 grand earning, you're talking about people doubling their— yeah. So I certainly think when we had a company come in and talk to us about financial education, um, to try and give people some pointers of what to do with their money, because it's quite easy to— you know, I've done it myself— when you first start billing, yeah, you get some money on the board and you've spent the money before you've even got the money paid in.

Well, you see, that's how they advertise recruitment now to young people to get in. It's the Rolex Rolexes. It's the— I'd be for holidays. Honestly, it's not.

Well, I'm not saying that, but then there's lots of different types of firms, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The majority of firms, if you went online and you looked at what they promoted in terms of work on their Work For Us page, because I fucking look at these companies all day. Yeah, a lot— the go-to is IB for trips, incentives, commission, Rolex, all that.

Yeah.

So it's— do you know what I mean?

Yeah, well, I do, I do know what you mean, but we promote certain aspects of, of, of success. But success doesn't always mean money, does it? So if people are promoting money as the driving factor of people joining, then they're going to get a certain type of individual, aren't they?

Yeah.

Um, so I guess, you know, if we talk to any business about how they recruit, you, you advertise based on the type of individual you want to attract.

Yeah, of course.

If you advertise purely based on money, then you're going to get the type of individual that is only interested in money and will sell his own grand. Yeah, so I guess, you know, if that's what businesses have—

but how, so how, how, so how have you called— how have you just started to communicate that to these people? Because all of a sudden you're going from being their manager to being a bit of a life thing. And I know, do you know what I mean? So it's like, have— has it just naturally happened where you've sat these people down and gone, look, this is what I learned through getting more money, I can see that you're doing really well now? Like, do you know what I mean?

It's not my job to guide them, is it? Because, you know, um, so we, we got a firm in to come and talk about financial education.

So you actually made it?

Yeah, one of our that specifically focuses on going into corporate businesses and talking about financial well-being.

Cool.

So we've done that, and we've also had a mindset coach come in. So a lot of the training that we do— yeah, it's not— well, it is— it's not on sales training, because really, why would you train someone on sales if the mindset's poor?

Yeah, there's no point.

So you're better off training on the mindset, getting people positive, getting people to understand each other. And we've had some great sessions where you, you're sitting around, you've got all the team talking about things that you just didn't realize about them. And yeah, the bonding of the team as a result of that is great. So mindset I think is important, but also, yeah, a bit of— and that's where the team sort of see that you're trying to do right by them.

Mm-hmm.

You know, we don't have to pay for someone to come in and educate them on finances.

No, I like that.

So what we're doing is we're trying to make them better.

I think more people just need to be having those conversations because it's like, there's fucking mid-20s— like, obviously it wasn't me, I built 24K in my first year, which I'm happy about. I wasn't buying fucking Rolexes and shit.

That's what I did in the recession, after recession. I was happy with that.

But do you know what I mean? So like, but then look, I know there's like fucking 25-year-olds out there driving Aston Martins and shit like that. Yeah, do you know what I mean? It's just like more people need to have that fucking conversation. It's like, look, do you know what I mean? Like, there's more to it than this Aston Martin, all that. Like, what is your plan? What is your financial well-being? All this.

So that's not really— that's life generally. That's the country generally, isn't it? There needs to be a financial piece. But ultimately, as a recruitment German, you know, manager, business owner, whatever you want to do. I guess it's just trying to— what, what do your people need to make them successful in life?

Yeah.

And, you know, money, if you waste it, is not going to help that. So I guess it's just making sure that you're trying to give people the education that they need, um, to make sure they get to a point when they leave IDEX, yeah, that they're set up for life. That's the idea. If we can get people that are set up for life leaving IDEX, that's perfect.

Well, even if they're set up against ex?

Well, listen, if they've done 10 years for us and done a great job, if they're set up against us, as long as they're not taking our clients for the 12-month restrictive covenant, then crack on. Pretty sick. But I think ultimately, I think, you know, if someone's done 10 years service and they leave as a good leaver, good luck to them.

Yeah, that's class, mate. So let's talk a bit about after the recession and then what's been going on since then. So how big is your team now? The financial services side?

Financial services, we've got We've got 13 across the country, so we've broken that down. We've, we've just niched, really, which we probably should have done sooner, really.

What's been the benefits of that then?

Um, under, you know, having an intricate knowledge of the specific markets and the people within those markets, more importantly. I think we were, we were specialists that were generalists, really. Generally specialists, whatever. Yeah, so we were specialists, but really, was that because what you would—

let's say you got a financial services firm, would you recruit too many of the roles that you could recruit for? Do you know what I mean? Was there— did you double down on certain sectors within the business that you just focused on as opposed to, oh yeah, I'll do all of it?

Yeah, we, we kind of would just get whatever we, we could grab hold of, I guess, at one point. So I think certainly the last 3 years we've, um, you know, increased our average fee by about 30%. Um, really? Yeah, which has been a great exercise.

How the fuck have you done that?

Well, started saying no to things and started positioning ourselves differently. So we were kind of mid-tier in terms of the level of work.

You started doing more like retained and like—

Yeah, we've done more, more retained. So we're up about 50-60% in terms of the retained work that we do. But also we've positioned ourselves differently in the market and we're looking at different things really. We're trying to get more senior work and that's worked well. So we've got less clients now, which was quite difficult to do, is cutting clients.

Saying no, that's difficult.

Yeah. So we've now got less clients than we've ever had, but we're doing more business than we've ever done.

That's really good, really smart.

And also, you know, we're working less jobs than we've ever worked, but our jobs are so much more focused.

Yeah, I know that. Yeah, absolutely.

So, you know, we grade our jobs, which has worked really well.

Really?

So we're trying to work things that we know we can.

So when you say grade your jobs, you're— what? Yeah, you work because you have to learn that quick in recruitment. You'll just work fucking anything. So what you mean by that is your consultants are working jobs that, one, they've got the relationship where their client is going to take their phone call if they need help or whatever, but working jobs that they know is really important to their client and they know that they're gonna get paid.

Yeah, so I think what, you know, what we've done is we've put a process in place so that new joiners— you were talking about new joiners earlier and what you do for them— giving them understanding of what a job that you can fill is. Yeah, so fillable job, sorry. Yeah, so, you know, we have A jobs, B jobs, and C and D. Okay, so we just purely focused on getting the jobs that we can fill, and that's based on the client relationship, where it is, money, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, but they've got literally drop boxes of what they tick off to make sure that it's an A job, and they can only work roles at that, you know, that are A or B, basically. I like that. So actually, yeah, our clients have halved, our average fees increased, and our job fills doubled.

Fucking hell.

So yeah, so, so we—

how long's that— how long has that transition been, do you think? How long has that taken to get to that point?

3 years, really. Again, it's one of those I wish we'd have just done it from the start. As you know, I'm sure everyone's like that, but if we'd have done that from the start, we'd probably be much further ahead than we are at the moment. But, but it's—

so how clients take— how, how, why is it that clients are willing to pay you more then if you're doing the— do you know what I mean?

Well, they're not necessarily paying us more, we're just working on high-level roles.

Oh, sorry. Okay, okay, I get it.

Okay, so the average fee in terms of the total amount, as I put the percentage— yeah, yeah. So we're working on high-level roles now, and that's what we're focusing on really. So, but we're telling people that's what we do.

Yeah, that makes sense.

You get back what you put out, don't you? So if you say to people you're you're a generalist, you'll get generalist roles.

Yeah, totally.

You say to people, this is my niche and this is what I do, then that's what you get back.

So simply— and because to be fair, I've had a few, I've had a few conversations actually on the phone and stuff where people like, Leo, we're trying to— yeah, we're trying to penetrate that higher level with the bigger salary bracket. And then that's literally, in short, simply, it's like, tell everyone that's what you do. That's what you do. That's how you can help. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

We, as I say, you get back what you put out, don't you? So if you tell people this is what I do, then that's what you get Yeah, you know, so, so we've had a lot of success with that, but also going out and pitching. Yeah, I think recruitment, a lot— we probably went through a phase, as a lot of people do, where people hiding behind either the phone— or phone's great, but even worse, hiding behind email. You know, getting in front of people and actually pitching our services to people and what we can do to help their business and make them better. Yeah, and I've loved that, going out in front of chief execs, directors, and actually, you know, old-fashioned PowerPoint and talking about, right, this is what we can do, this is how we can help you.

Yeah.

And this is where we'll go. So I'm talking about the recruitment process as a whole as opposed to the product, which is the candidate.

Yeah, I like that. So that's, that's good, mate. So a few things I want to dive into, be keen to get your, your perspective. Firstly, so you mentioned that, um, earlier on you built a desk from scratch and all these things. Had a couple of messages recently about some— if you could, if I could ask people about some advice. That's if I'm a recruiter, I'm going into a, um, a recruitment agency and I've got this cold desk, it's fuck knows, Java development desk, I don't know, I'm making it up, but it's a cold desk. What would be sort of your go-to advice for that person if they're building a cold desk from scratch? What would be some of your— from your experience?

Well, I mean, I was always told don't put green on green, so I think you need a decent recruiter. But the first thing is to research the key players in the market.

Okay, so map out your market.

Map out your market. Who's the key companies that recruit in that area, and who are the key contacts at those businesses, and get in front of them and go and pitch to them. You know, that's the key, isn't it? Don't hide behind who are they, who are the big businesses, who are the big contacts there, and get out and just attack them. Pitch to them. Attack might be a bit aggressive, but get in front of them and talk about how you can help their business be better. Because I think what I've seen recently is, for the first time in my 15-year career in recruitment is it's actually seen as a profession, you know.

Recruitment?

I honestly believe that.

You think?

I honestly do, yeah. I think because of the challenges of people being able to recruit, and the, you know, the key part for any— any— the key challenge for any chief exec at the moment is recruitment.

Really? It is.

And, you know, any statistic— PwC did one, I'm not going to quote it because I don't know the exact figure— where that was the biggest challenge for CEOs. Yeah. So So if that's the case and you're a recruiter, you can genuinely help people solve their businesses better. You know, that's what we're looking for. We're looking for problems that we can solve. So I think the amount of times I think you've got—

I think you've got to couple that with like, you've got to really believe in that you, you can solve that problem as well. Do you know what I mean? Like, you've got— you clearly believe in yourself that I'm solving a real problem. Yeah, I'm proud to be a recruiter. I can help your business.

Yeah.

Whereas there will be a lot of people where obviously recruitment has such a bad name and recruiters are— then they're not trusted people. But a lot of that, I think—

I don't know, man. I've got to defend the, the industry because I think the industry is— I even listen to these podcasts, man. There's so much good, there's so much quality out there.

There is, there is, totally.

There's some real— there's some poor practice out there. And one of the things I remember from the recession is that that was the good thing that happened, was the poor recruiters were straight out of the market. You don't survive in, yeah, in a tough market as a poor recruiter. But I think there's some really high standards. Oh, going on in the moment. But will we become regulated one day? Oh, would we?

That'd be mad.

Well, I've, you know, I went and got my qualification with the REC, and I think that we've got 8 people in our business that did that.

Really? What does that even mean though?

What does it mean?

You can't start recording like phone calls and that.

I remember— I'm talking about being regulated where you have to be qualified with the REC or whatever the governing body is to be able to do the job.

Yeah, that's interesting.

So surely there's, you know, everything is becoming regulated. I'm sure there's going to be a time in recruitment where that will happen in the the next 3 to 5 years. Well, GDPR should have stopped some poor practices, but it hasn't. You know, you still got— we've still got people in the market just firing out CVs, they haven't spoken and stuff like that. You know, that still happens. But surely there's got to come a time where, yeah, there's got to be some regulation put in place. I'm not— you know, a lot of recruiters will listen to that and say, 'Shut up, yeah, stop saying that.' But it's going to come a point where that happens. And would that be a bad I don't know. If we're talking about the profession hasn't— I think it is a better profession now. But if we're talking about it not having that view in the marketplace, would it be a bad thing?

Yeah, I think that would definitely help. I think that would definitely help for sure. Okay, one thing I definitely wanted to get your perspective of is, um, because you're clearly someone that has the humility to encourage people to be better than you and all these things. So like, I always like asking this, like, what have been through your career, what have been the the things that have prevented recruiters going from £250,000 a year to £350,000 to £450,000? Like, what have been the common habits or common things that you've seen that people breaking through to get to that, that next level?

Well, you've seen the next level. I think our business, we've probably got 3 or 4 that are at that level.

Okay.

And, and what's taken them up is having someone come in.

Okay.

That, that pushed— that suddenly raised the bar. You know, we were a business really 2 years ago where, um, we didn't think anyone could do more than a certain level of income in the markets that we operated at. And then suddenly someone came in that did, you know, 50% more than everyone else, and everybody else raised as a result of it. So have you heard the flea analogy?

No.

Right, so if you get a jar with some fleas in— yeah, put your hand over the top of it, the fleas don't jump above your hand when you move it.

Okay.

If you then put another flea in that jumps above the jar and then all the other fleas follow it.

Okay.

So if you can get that consultant that comes in, that's that flea that jumps.

Well, it's like the 4-minute mile, innit?

Well, yeah, that's exactly what it is. So I think, you know, you need to find your flea basically. So I think what stops people from getting to that next level is believing that it's possible.

Possible, yeah. Mindset.

I didn't think a million pound was possible to start listening to these podcasts. I really didn't. You know, some of the people doing a million quid, I'm like, how are you doing that?

Yeah.

So suddenly my mindset's changed. He's right. Right, if people are doing a million pounds, do that.

All those stories that you tell yourself, isn't it? I can only get— probably do another 250 this year.

It's the whole thing, you need to see it to believe it, don't you?

Yeah.

So if I tell you that you can do a million pounds, it's, you know, difficult. But if there's a guy that sat next to us that's doing it, yeah, then, then people believe. So I think the thing that stops anyone from doing anything is the belief that they can actually do it. Mm. So I think, you know, ultimately we can do anything, can't we? You can have a go at anything.

But do any— did— so that person then obviously it's like I'm sitting there and it's like, fucking hell, this guy's done 600K this year. Like, I didn't know that was possible, right? But were there any— what was he doing anything different, do you know what I mean? Like, was there anything in there that you noticed? Like, that's really interesting.

Well, this guy for us that's doing 600K, again, um, I would say his name, but I don't know if he'd like that because he doesn't like— yeah, yeah, yeah. But, and also might get headhunted. Um, I mean, you know, for— but he knows who he is. Um, but 4 or 5 years ago, you know, he had a really tough run and he— but he didn't change throughout that. He didn't change the way he operated, didn't change the way he worked. And I think he had a year where he did like 50, 60 grand, you know, really, really poorly. But we knew he was a good recruiter.

Yeah.

And he kept doing the same things, but he believed in himself and he followed that same process and it worked. And he built up his network. So that, that's, you know, that's fantastic to see, really.

So he had a real structure.

He had the real—

he believed in this structure. He did.

But also he'd seen someone else come into the business that had done 500, and he then believed, and he could see, because I don't think he'd seen that before. So he'd seen someone do it, and then he started doing more of the things that he did well.

Okay, so it's recognizing the things that you do well.

Yeah, what you do well, doing more of it. And ultimately, the guy works longer hours than anybody else, you know. Yes, he has to, because he's got to manage so many placements. So yeah, but he's the guy that would be in the office till 10 o'clock.

Really?

He'd be the— and I'm talking about when he was doing 50 grand, and that takes a lot of motivation to—

when you're not doing well Well, he's in there till 10, then you're doing that.

Working late hours. Yeah, yeah, okay. No, yeah, yeah. So I think— and that's what I don't see as much anymore in recruitment. I used to see a lot of people working till 8, 9 o'clock in the office. Yeah, you don't see that anymore because everyone wants the culture, everyone wants the niceness, agile working, all that sort of stuff. But listen, first 2 years— you were talking about what you did the first few years— yeah, work longer and harder than anyone else.

Well, that's what I did.

Do more than anyone else. That's— you can talk about the science behind it and motivation and mentality and all that sort of stuff. Stuff. But ultimately, the first 2 years you get into recruitment, you work harder than anyone else. Yeah, you do twice as much as anyone else. Yeah, real basic stuff, isn't it? It's not 15 years.

It's the only thing you can fucking control in it.

Of course it is. But 15 years in recruitment, and what I'm coming at you is, my advice is work really hard. That's not science, is it? Yeah. But ultimately, if you look at what these guys do, you can, you can give all the, the tools and all the different things you can do, but The guy that is our biggest biller is the one that does the most hours, and I don't think that's also a coincidence, but he also balances that with his life and all that sort of stuff.

So yeah, okay, yeah.

So, so, you know, if you're doing a million pounds, you can't— you can't—

no, no, I like that. I really like— I think that's totally true. Someone just seeing someone around you raising the bar, realizing that they're no different to you and all that, that's, that's such a game changer in it. Yeah, I think that's a great thing about podcasts and all the information I have access to, it's like, well, hang on a minute, no, that person's done that, I can definitely do that. Yeah, everyone is fascinated and wants, okay, well, how long does he spend BDing? Or like, how long does he spend sourcing? Or how does he structure his day? Do you know what I mean? Everyone wants that little, that little secret or that little bit that's gonna— they think is gonna help them get to there.

But I mean, I mean, that, that is just working things that, you know, you're gonna make money off, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. You know, someone gave me something where I think there's a company where the job fill was 20%.

Okay.

So you fill in 1 in 5 jobs that comes in.

Yeah.

And the best analogy I had was if you're a plumber and you were going to do 5 jobs, you're only going to get paid on 1. Yeah. Which one would you work on, you know? So, so, so, but that's what we do, isn't it? We create— we spend a lot of time not getting paid, not getting paid for a lot of work that we do.

Yeah.

So you have to choose carefully the work that you take on and the work that you do based on the client relationship you've got. So I think, yeah, that combined with hard work and then and then, you know, you can—

yeah, no, I like that. Anything that you want to add? I really like that. Anything you want to add on, on the mindset piece? I feel like you've, you've got your— you're pretty switched on and— well, you know what I mean? Like, do you, do you have open conversations about— I know you said you've got a mindset coach, all those things. Like, what, what did anyone speak about mindset when you started? Like, you know what I mean? In the early, early years, I don't—

well, it was more— I had it in sports. I think there's a lot of things that are happening in sports now that we can bring into business with sports science and a lot A lot of good stuff. So I had it really in terms of mindsets— sorry, mindset. But I think the challenge we've got now is there's a lot of talk around mental health.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think the biggest thing we need is education to people as to what mental health is.

Oh, I couldn't agree more.

You know, I mean, that's why there's a lot of mental health awareness— is great, um, but there's also— we're seeing a lot of people saying, well, I'm mentally unwell because something bad's happened in their life. So I think, you know, we need to get to a point where there needs to be an education on what mental health is. I couldn't agree more.

Um, and that could—

that can help with the mindset coaches because they taught you about what you need to do to make yourself happy as well. So I think mindset coaches can help with the mental well-being and mental health as well, what you need to do to make yourself mentally healthy. It's the same as going to the gym, you need to make yourself fit, you know, you need to do the same sort of things on a daily basis to make you— make sure your mind is fit and strong. Yeah, in the same way that you do with your body. So I think the mindset coach, I think, is, is really, really important, or certainly people understanding how the mind works, because it's blooming complicated. Yeah, so complicated.

We're just fucking weirdos, aren't we?

We are Well, we are. Well, we can— the mind, the mind can easily tell you that you're a weirdo.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's understanding that.

Oh man, no, I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. That's why, um, I was really motivated to get some people on and talk about mental health because like now, like, I, I, I live on LinkedIn and spend a lot of time on there and I just, I just feel like it's a very easy word to use now. And I think at the same time it's dangerous, but it's great that people, more people talking about. But at the same time it's like I don't know, I don't, I don't personally, I don't like it when people are, I had a really tough week, my mental health this week. Okay, what do you mean? Yeah, let's, we need a bit more context, do you know what I mean? I think there needs to be, as you said, an actual just education around it. So, um, because the more people that actually understand how their brain works and all these things, the better.

Absolutely, absolutely. For the, so mental health, I guess, just going back, it's for the, for the good in terms of, you know, using your mind to make sure you believe that you can do 600 grand, believe that you can go and talk to these CEOs, but also, uh, to make sure you don't when it— when you're getting these knockbacks from someone saying, I'm not going to work with you, it doesn't mean that you—

yeah, you know, that's what I wanted to go into next. Those two things, that's what I wanted to go in next before, um, we start wrapping up, mate. Like, again, I always ask people, um, what topics they want me to go over and stuff like that. And a real common one, again, is that resilient piece. And I know you've gave a few stories and all those things, you look for that in people and these things. So like, how do you— some people, as you said, like that girl that started, just broke her heart and she couldn't deal with bit. I think there's got to be a bit of self-awareness to go, you know what, this isn't for me. That's part of it. But how do you really instill that resilience in people? Do you know what I mean? You've got to play a part to play in that a bit as well, surely, or not?

Well, I'm not sure you can really. Yeah, I'm not sure you can.

So what do you do?

That's what I'm saying. So, so you are— that's how you— how you brought up, or what's happened to you when you're in your early life, or, you know, people have had the parents divorce and all these, all these little things or big things that happen in your life that create that ability to overcome adversity. So that's why I look for it, because I don't think you could train it. Yeah, I don't think you can train it when someone joins if they haven't been.

If you're a manager and you know that, that per— that recruiter who has showed a bit of resilience in the past and is having a bit of a shit 2 months, 3 months, 4 months, yeah, what'd you do? How'd you get them to, do you know what I mean, push through the resilience? How do you keep—

well, ultimately I can, I can tell them that they've been through much worse in their life than what's happening at the moment, and they came back much stronger in their they're much better as a result of it. So understand and ask people what they've learned from the bad experience. Yeah, you know, if something's going wrong, what have you learned from it and what are you going to do to change that and impact that moving forwards?

Yeah.

And I think if you just ask people questions, don't you know, I think telling people sort yourself out— you ask people questions. So what have you learned from these 3 months? Forget about—

I know you're having a tough time, you need to get them focusing on something else.

What have you learned? What will you do differently next time? Yeah, you know, get people to enjoy the failure. Love it. Yeah, and that's, that's, that's the thing. If you can— it's a really messed up mindset, but if you can learn to enjoy your failures, then every day will be okay in recruitment.

But do you do anything personally to help you? Like, I always like asking it, like, any— did you have— form any habits to get through those shit times? Like, don't know.

Yeah, the habit is changing my mindset to see a failure. Okay, as a success. Yeah, so that's simple as that. Yeah, failure, a lot of the time you think, oh man, I've done that wrong, I'm terrible, oh 'But if you look and go, what could I have done differently?' And that's what I messed up. And next time when you're doing a deal or whatever's happening, you remember that failure and you adapt and you do it differently. So going back to what you say, it's just looking at my— changing my mind to see a failure as—

yeah, it's perspective. It's how you choose to view something.

Mindset. It all comes down to mindset. It all comes down to your viewpoint. Um, but you know, we're in a great job that's It's, you know, really straightforward, isn't it? But it's the most difficult simple job in the world, isn't it? Recruitment.

Yeah.

Um, but there's lots of different things. Just make sure you adapt to how you're working, try and be better all the time, and don't get too carried away with successes or failures.

Yeah.

And try and—

that's big enough. Yeah, stay grounded. No Rolexes, kids.

Keep it real. That's what we're doing, right?

Right. Before we finish, mate, um, I'd be keen to just get your thoughts on this because, yeah, I really like how, how, um, how positively you're talking about the industry. And that's a big part why this, if I'm honest, like, to give actually people real— a real perspective into the industry, right? So where do you think recruitment's going over the next couple of years?

I think it's the most— personally, I think it's the most exciting time for a while in recruitment. I think there's lots of— I think you've got an industry where the clients need you. Yeah, you know, so that's great. There's a need from clients and there's a respect for what we do and for our profession and the way we operate, if you do it properly. And I think there's because all the technology that's coming in place and all the, you know, if you go to any of these events about what's happening with tech and AI and stuff like that, there's some really exciting stuff that's going to be happening in the industry. So I actually think it's a great time to be part of it.

Yeah.

Um, so I see becoming more innovative, more creative. The firms that dare to be different will be the best ones.

Yeah, totally. Um, and I think it's dare to be different and then also double down on those relationships and double down on fucking delivering for their clients.

The people that know the clients inside out and the ones that niche— you have to niche. You've got a niche. I wish we'd have done it sooner. We didn't. But all the people that I see, you know, our top 3 billers are the ones that have got the narrowest niche.

Really?

So actually, I used to think when you came into recruitment, if you had the biggest database, the most clients, the most candidates, that was the best one. But actually, less is more. And I think when you start to see that less is more and you niche down, it could be a game changer. But the industry is an exciting place to be.

Nice, mate. So look, what, uh, before I ask you the last question, mate, what, uh, what are you excited about in your world Mate, what is going on? What's going on in IDEX?

IDEX, uh, I'm excited about— I'm excited about the number of people we've got that are better than last year. Oh, uh, I'm excited. Yeah, I'm excited about, um, the, the quality of client relationships we've got, and I'm excited that we're innovating and we're trying new things and we're going out and putting in technology that other firms haven't got, and we're trying to be different. Yeah, we're daring to be different and we're observing the masses and doing the opposite, which is, you know, I think, you know, if we're in a business that was stagnating and wasn't trying to be better or do things differently, then it'd be really boring. But we're doing that, which means that every day is different, every year is different, and that's what it's about, innit?

Nice, mate. So last question.

I thought the last one was the last question.

No, no, this one, this one, mate, this one. Um, yeah, so yeah, you can answer it with a phrase, sentence. If, uh, if you could communicate to everyone, they'd listen to you, all the recruiters in the world, they listen to you, they take on your advice, what would you say? It could be a phrase, it could be a sentence. What have you got to say to these people that you really want them to listen to?

Don't be a dickhead.

I like that. Yeah, you're not the first person to say that.

Am I? Oh, really? I need to think something different. But I think, yeah, I think, you know, there's a lot of the industry— the challenge we've got as an industry is there are a number of those because they get carried away with their own success. So don't get carried away with your own success.

I like it.

Yeah, don't be a dickhead's better, but someone else is using it.

Don't be a dickhead. No, I like it. Look, it's been an absolute pleasure, mate.

Thank you so much. Thanks a lot.