US Recruitment Playbook: Lessons & Strategies with Liam Newton

Liam, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Hishem. I appreciate the invitation.

Obviously, when I reached out or dropped you a note or knew I was coming to Austin, I looked to my network and tried to find people that, uh, I maybe have interacted with in the past.

Sure.

Maybe met that is now in Austin. And when I saw your name, I was like, oh, I think that'd be an interesting conversation. Obviously saw, and it sort of coincided with, I remember seeing a post of you and your family.

Sure.

Being here for like Independence Day, I think.

Yeah, yeah, we were 3 weeks in, I think.

Yeah. So I was like, oh, like, let me reach out, see if we can make it happen. And here we are.

Here we are. So it's Austin.

Yeah, absolutely. So in, in today's conversation, you've been on a really great journey with Projectus, which is going to continue.

Sure.

But more specifically, with us sitting down in Austin today, you've been on in the trenches, still are in the trenches in the last 2 years of building, helping build the US presence.

Sure.

Or Projectus, right?

I have.

So in this conversation, we're going to focus on that. As I'm sure you're aware, there's a lot of people that will listen to this podcast that are probably maybe in 2 camps. One, really like the idea of bringing their careers to the States.

Yeah.

Two, they're ambitious entrepreneurs that like the idea of what they could potentially do in the US after maybe doing Europe, UK markets. So I think, yeah, like for us in this conversation, we want to delve into that— what's been hard, the lessons, sure, what's working, what isn't— and then also talk about what you're excited about with Projectus, what you're doubling down on. I know literally this week you just doubled the team size, you've got Americans in the business now, so I know it's like an exciting time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a good time to chat for sure.

So why don't we, why don't we start with, so just like time frames for people.

Sure.

So fair to say Projectus as a company had done business in the US, but there was, correct me if I'm wrong here, but over whatever period there wasn't someone in the business just entirely focused on the US. So that only happened when you made that decision, or you and Tim decided that was going to be the plan, and you've been doing that since 2 years, uh, the last 2 years.

That's right, yeah. So We dabbled, um, and we'd organically won place business in the United States, um, but, but never really had, um, a true focus, um, and I'll be frank with you, and this is why it's interesting for people listening to this that might not even realize yet that US move for them could be a great career option and maybe feel like it's too, too far from where they are at the moment. Like, I've— up until about 2 and a half years ago, I'd never even considered it.

Really?

Yeah, I was, I was very much in my own world. I had lots of things going on, you know, with my wife personally and things. So I was just focusing on all that as well as building a business at Projectors. Um, and then it literally came up in a car journey back from Softplay with my, at the time, about 10-month-year-old.

Okay.

Um, and I knew Tim had aspirations to move to the US, and I think he just needed that I guess confidence that there was someone that can really, really launch it, drive it, and be the, be the point person for that move. I just looked over to my wife and said, look, genuinely, how would you feel about relocating to the United States, Austin or Florida? And we're quite, um, instinctive people, which is one of our biggest faults as well as one of our biggest positives. And she was like, yeah, let's go for it. She asked a couple of questions and then we were in. And then we kind of made that decision in a car journey.

Really?

On a Sunday afternoon. I went into work on a Monday, I said, Tim, like, I realized what's going to take, I realized the changes I need to make in terms of my responsibility, in terms of my responsibilities at work day to day. Shall we do it? And he said, 100%. I couldn't think of a better person, which was, which is great to hear that from your boss. Yeah, I've got your— I've got their backing to go and, and launch his brand, launch his company that he, he he built from his, originally his kitchen. And here we are now, 3 months, 4 months into the journey. So yeah, it's been a whirlwind 2, 2 and a half years. But yeah, so pleased we've made the move.

No, I appreciate you sharing that because if anyone is gonna, depending on where you are in your life, the personal aspect is important, right? If you are gonna uproot your life here.

It's huge.

It isn't like you don't, like your life isn't, like you're not going to be happy if you're like, you just optimize for work, right? The other bits have got to be, have got to work well around it as well for you to actually be happy, settled here, not maybe be contemplate, contemplating going back home 6 months in or, or whatever. So, okay, so basically, so let me know if I'm wrong here, but obviously what I got written down here then is you've been like full-time on desk in the trenches from January 2023.

Yeah, I, I moved away from a leadership function where I was pretty much respon— I was sort of the CEO's, Tim's sort of right-hand person, if you will, running business development, running recruitment process, people, you know, alongside some colleagues, people development, training, still winning business, um, to just moving away from that responsibility, not having middle managers underneath me, and just getting back to, to being a consult— a consultant. Because I knew in my heart of hearts that's what we needed to do to make this work. I might have got the go-ahead to go and launch in the United States, but I wouldn't have felt comfortable asking for that level of investment from my company without showing actually this can work. This can work not only in the US when we get there, but if I can build, if I can build business, if I can show you this is a serious business opportunity from, from the UK, from London, imagine what we can achieve when we're actually on the ground.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, I moved away from all those things. And I've always been quite ambitious and always liked extra responsibility, but I'm sure we'll get to it. But one of my biggest lessons was actually that I probably walked away from holding myself accountable for billings too early in my career. And maybe it was my leadership style, or maybe I sort of naturally gravitated towards leadership and mentorship and management. However, if I could do it all again, and I have got that opportunity now in Austin, you know, I'm going to make sure that I am utilizing those skills that I've learned in leadership, but making sure that I'm the person leading from the front. Yeah, my name's up on the leaderboard, I'm expected to do everything I'm expecting of others, and that's the, the method that I'm taking in and what I've done for the last couple of years in the UK, which was a grind. It's a grind.

Well, let's just paint a picture on that because that is where a lot of people have to start if they're UK-based, right? So just paint a bit of a picture then in terms of like Because how long did you do it from the UK before you moved here?

Um, year and a half.

Year and a half. So let's just paint the picture, like, what, what did like a typical week stroke day look like working in the US from the UK?

Well, everyone's personal situations are totally different.

Yeah.

So as I mentioned already, I've got a wife and a son. Um, he's young. Like, I'm— my wife has a successful— she's self-employed, successful career as well. Like, it's not all just, okay, you're at home, I'm working. Like, we've got a a good balance. I hope she might not agree, but we've got a good balance, and her career is as important as mine. Okay, so, you know, I didn't have the luxury of like lying in bed till 9:30 and then getting to work at half 10. I was up at 6 AM every day anyway, and then getting into work at 10:30, 11 AM, and then working through till 7, 8, leaving the office, getting home, carrying on working, you know, 9, 10, Not every day, but you have to do that work if you're gonna commit to working in a market where they are, you know, 5, 6, 7, and 8 hours or 7 hours behind. You have to commit to those level of calls and those level of hours. So yeah, it was just shifting the hours slightly, starting 2 to 3 hours later than you traditionally would in the UK market and then working 2, 3 hours beyond. And even then you're still not even working about 50% of what a typical United States working week would look like across all 4 time zones.

So it's the biggest sacrifice, the personal side. That's what people have to be prepared to—

yeah, I mean, you either have to sacrifice your evenings if, um, and if you've got potentially got other people and dependents, you maybe need to sacrifice time with them as well, or sleep. Um, I, I believe you can build and do business from the UK in the United States. That's proven. I don't feel like you can build a business. So you can do business, you can't build a business, in my view. In my view. Um, uh, and I'm sure there's plenty of people that will and have proven me wrong.

What makes you say that?

Um, I'll rephrase, I'll rephrase, because I'm— there'll probably be 15 people in your comments— no, no, it's proving otherwise.

We can talk about it.

Let me rephrase. I couldn't build a business from the UK in the US market. I could do business, but we had to get on the ground for us to achieve what we want to achieve. That's my viewpoint. And I feel like it's a big, big sacrifice on mentally, like physically. And some people can deal with that.

A year and a half was my limit because towards the, towards the end of that, you were like, you told me, didn't you? Like, personally, you were like, I don't know how tired, long. I can—

I'm just really tired.

How much?

Just really tired. Yeah. And I got to a point where I wasn't business developing West Coast because I am a professional that wants to give the best expert world-class service to my clients, and I couldn't hand on heart look them in the eye at a conference or over a video call and say that I was giving them as much as I was the, the positions on the East Coast because we, we work on Most of our positions, maybe 75-80%, are field-based positions. So you could have a position one day up in Pacific Northwest in Seattle, the next minute be working on a position in Florida on the other side of the country.

So field-based being just for people out there selling products?

Yeah, field-based or remote. Yeah, we work within medical devices, medical technologies, on anything to do within the product pipeline from like preclinical stage, clinical trial, all the way through to commercializing it, sales, marketing, and leadership. So these people could be based anywhere? Yeah. Yeah, and you do find we, we work positions across the whole country, and that's part of why we chose Austin— centrally based, well connected. So, so yeah, if that answers your question, for me it was just a year and a half in, I was like, wow, I can't wait to get over in the US.

And what were like, what were the, the sort of goals that you set yourself that made you feel like we've got a proof of concept or we built a good enough traction for you to go, look, Tim, I think looking over here, this is what we've been able to do. I think this gives us some really good signals that if we go there, I think we could build even more. Like, what, like, what was the— I'm sure—

question. Yeah. Um, well, for January 2023, number one, myself, and I haven't mentioned yet, Jay, my colleague, he was there with me every day, by the way.

Right, yes, you did it together.

Yeah, yeah, he did it together. He was the one person I was responsible for Right. Um, but we were just— we were colleagues. Yeah, we're both doing the work, we're both coming into work doing the same things every day, you know, sharing sprints, um, sharing standards, and making sure for me that we were, we were top of the leaderboard and we were billing the most from the UK and the US market, which we achieved last year. Um, that was my, my— I want to prove that actually, you know, we're two of the most experienced, um, or at least two of the highest performing up to now in Europe. So why can't we replicate that in the US market? We did that. Um, so that was, that was important to me. Again, even though I think we would have got the move anyway, for my own standards, I wanted to make sure that we showed everyone in the business, as well as Tim, this is a serious business opportunity, which he, which he already knew.

How long did it take to do your first placement?

Oh, not long, because like I, like I mentioned, there were, there were things going on in the US. Yeah, but we, yeah, we were billing from, from, you know, January, February of that first year. Okay. Um, and I mean, 2023, I'm glad it was a lesser market. I'm glad that— I'm glad that— because I think if you start in recruitment, if you start a new market in a, in a, in a vibrant time where there's lots of jobs coming in, you know, it's very, very, um, candidate-driven. And you have lots of success, I don't feel that ground— I don't feel that, um, sort of grounds you for a, for a career in recruitment. Yeah, I, I'm of the opinion that, you know, in that first 6 months, yeah, you should experience some level of, uh, challenge and hardship. And I thought that makes for a better recruiter, in my experience.

Okay.

Um, so I was pleased it wasn't the easiest time. Um, it was a good, a good eye-opener for, for what we were getting ourselves into. But I, I had so much confidence just in terms of job flow, conversion rates, you know, the amount of jobs that came on off the amount of business development calls we were making. You know, the processes that I've always lived by, they were ringing true even though we were 6, 7, 8 hours behind— ahead, sorry.

Okay, so let's just break this down a bit then, because like, I know people will be interested. Let me just first ask you this. So thinking of that, that first year, what were maybe the things that were more challenging than you expected, or were like more, like more surprising challenges?

Out of interest, um, it was again— and I'll probably— I'm gonna sound like a bit of a broken record in a lot of this, and we discussed that in our prep call, didn't we? Like I said to you, I said I'm not sure people are going to want to hear this. I'm sort of Uh, saying the same things, um, getting through to people. Like, we, you, you need to, because we had that limited time to do so. So as soon as you got to the US, for example, I know it's a slightly different question to your answer, but I'll get to the point. As soon as you got to the US, we were calling people at different type points of the day that we just simply didn't have the opportunity to do in the UK, unless you're making calls at 11 midnight, right? And we're getting through to people that we've been chasing for literally months and having really productive phone calls, booking video meetings, booking face-to-faces at congresses. Some people just take calls at certain times of day and don't others. So I think we just had massive missed opportunity in terms of actually physically having conversations that perhaps we could have had if we were on the ground.

Right. So sorry, so you're saying that one of the challenges was that— yeah, so you're saying that you weren't able to maybe get as many people as you thought just simply because there's a limited window that you could call people?

Yeah. So, so I'm a big advocate with in business development, you can Some people, if you're struggling to get through to a prospect and they're on your target list and you know you can add value, you know you're directly in their space, you know you have talent available that can help their business grow, hit their milestones, you just need an opportunity to get on the phone with them. I'm a big advocate of, if you always do your lead chasing at the same time, mix it up. Like, you're doing the same thing over and over and over. You come in first thing in the morning, you hit leads. Good, that's the right thing to do. But that one person just might not simply take calls at that time. They might drop off their kids at that time. They might have a corporate business meeting every single day at that time. So you switch it up and you call them at 5 PM, 6 PM. You, you, you change the method. We didn't have as much of that opportunity, so we really had to make the most of the work we had. We really had to like capitalize and maximize the, the, the, from the calls and, and the meetings that we did have. Um, and we experienced and we got high standards, so we, we did that. Again, it just kept telling me, look, imagine what we could achieve. Imagine what's possible if we have bigger opportunity to make an impression.

And then any, and then just final point on this, talking about like early stages with it, but I think sometimes people that I speak to can have a sort of preconception that what are people going to be like knowing that they're speaking to someone from the UK?

Yeah.

Like, how did that play out? Is that even a thing or did you just hit that? I don't know, did it come up?

Yeah. I mean, you could answer the question in so many different ways. Ultimately, it's about value. You know, if you know how to demonstrate value very quickly, if you're super, if you're super niche or niche, as they call it over here, which is frustrating, prefer niche. But if you're super niche, you know, your specialism, you hold value, then there's a strong argument that I don't think it matters where you call from.

Yeah, fair.

At the same time, it certainly helped that we had a story to tell. It certainly helped that we had a timeline as to when we were going to be in Austin. It's a point of discussion, and in my view, companies will prefer doing business with someone on the ground in their country.

Yeah.

So, um, yeah, uh, it, it, it, it's a challenge if you make it a challenge. I think you should focus on your value first, and it shouldn't be a reason why you don't call people, give you a hard time or anything like that. Okay, no, no hard time. I think, I think If you're wondering whether to take on a job in the US, just go and do it, is my view on it. And there are less barriers than you realize, and you can and will do business from the UK in the US.

Okay, so let's go into just some more particular bits. So I've got here, you can tell me exactly, but you've worked in like a lot of markets, like geography-wise. Yeah. Right, UK.

Yeah.

Like different parts of Europe.

Yeah. Yeah, Germany, France, Switzerland, Austria.

Yeah, so there's a lot of things you've experienced that you've seen. So let's just go into like— I'd love to just get your take on like some of the main, the like main differences or nuances to this US market. The first one that I want to start with, it's not on this list that we planned, but okay, it's just the word that I just keep hearing, okay, this week, right? And I just want to get your take on it.

It's—

you probably know what the word's gonna be. It's gonna be relationships. And all I keep hearing is, oh, so much more relationship-driven. It's so much more relationship-driven, relationships, relationships. So I just want to hear your take on like, what, what does that mean to you? Like, when you hear, if you were to go to a bar and there's other recruiters and then they've been on a similar journey, like, how you find the US market? Oh yeah, so much more relationship-driven, isn't it? Like, what does that mean? Like, in your view, do you know what I mean? Yeah. Does that look like—

yeah, it'd be good to chat to you after this about, about, about that, um, in terms of people you've been speaking to. I know what they mean for sure. I mean, the shaking hands, looking someone in the eye, it's valued in business all over the world. It, it, it certainly feels like there's more focus and emphasis on it here. Um, there's— there seems to be more of a focus and emphasis on networking here than London. Um, and I don't know if it's a Texas thing, um, but everyone seems more willing to help you here.

Right.

Um, everyone seems to like pay it forward here a lot more. Um, and being on the ground does enable you to go out to companies' offices, HQs, understand their culture. And I feel like they appreciate that a lot more. And perhaps that's— perhaps that's because the UK is so oversubscribed from a recruitment consultancy agency perspective that it's become the norm that it's just quite— or can be sometimes transactional. And of course there's thousands of consultants that aren't and offer great value. But maybe that's, maybe that's part of the reason why. And maybe the industry's just got used to that level of, of, um, of process. So yeah, perhaps I, I do tend to agree. It's just difficult to, to establish after 4 months why that is.

Yeah.

Um, it's maybe just, um, instilled in the sort of business culture the United States has and, and the, and the size of the economy. Everything's about business. Everything seems to be about making more money. Like costs do escalate, you know, the American dream, you know, build a business, grow it, you know, fulfill your dreams. Everything seems more business economy focused here, I'd say. And that's probably why maybe relationships are more important.

We'll get back to the episode in just one minute. But today I'm excited to talk to you about one of our partners, Firefish, the recruitment CRM that accelerates data-driven growth. The problem with most recruitment CRMs is that they are just a database of records. Meaning they become just one of the many tools that recruiters use every day. Like with all systems, the records are only as good as the data being captured. Our sponsors Firefish know that for agencies to win faster, data needs to be at the heart of their business, making your CRM the single source of truth. With over 10,000 records created and updated every day, and 85% of placements from existing candidates, Firefish enables recruiters to enrich and engage their data equipping you with real-time insights needed to win faster. To learn more about Firefish and take advantage of an exclusive Recruitment Mentors Podcast offer, make sure you click the link in the show notes and mention the Recruitment Mentors Podcast when speaking to the Firefish team. So it's in— like, what I just took from that, I think there's some really good points. But actually, something that just sort of popped into my head then when you were speaking was that paying forward piece. Yeah, around like that might even be expected by the people that you're speaking to. Like, they're so used to paying it forward or being willing to help others that they almost maybe expect that to be part of like the exchange or part of the relationship they have with a recruiter. Whereas maybe, like you said, there's so many great recruiters out there that have that approach anyway in the UK, highly competitive market. Yes, but maybe isn't as expected. It's— it is expected to be more of a transaction and just like, can you get me that job? Can you get me to that company? So yeah, I don't know, that just popped into my head because I think what I'm interested in— and I know it is hard, I know you're still very much figuring this out, you're in the trenches of it— but like, I'm interested to just try and actually define what that looks like in a recruiter's day, or in— yeah, like what that actually looks like. You, you gave some really good points there, but it's like, what does that look like? Does it— is it like when you call that candidate for the first time, you're speaking about like, I might be able to help you at some point in your career, or they— I don't know, like, you know what I mean? What does that actually—

yeah, I appreciate that wasn't very specific.

No, no, but all those bits were helpful, but I know other people want specifics. Well, that's what people would be thinking.

I think just growing as an adult as well, like, I, I was always taught like, don't do anything for free, don't do anything for free. Um, oh, you've got to charge for that, you said, you know, pitch them an invoice for that. Um, but there are some— there are things that we can do that we have knowledge about that we can offer. We can help people. We, we— and I think, yeah, maybe you need to show value, and that's a way that you can, you can show value sometimes. You know, what's a 15-minute phone call? To discuss, you know, it's always a hot topic, isn't it, when people charge for like resume, resume, CV review. You know, if you talked about candidates, can we do that? Can we do a couple, 2 or 3, 4 or 5 of those a week? You know, will that candidate eventually, um, remember that? Yeah, probably. Can you, can you add value? That quite easily with your knowledge, with your experience in the game, you certainly can. Will they remember that, help you, push you in the direction in the direction of a referral, someone that could be right for the job you're hiring for? Will that person end up as a leader, a manager, a director in the future? And there are things that I think we can do as recruiters, and maybe we're traditionally taught not to, that can offer value and showcase your knowledge.

Um, so I think I know that that will be helpful. Maybe tell me what you think of this as well, because this is also something that I picked up on that might be a good example of this, is that A lot of recruiters that I've interviewed that have gone on to the US market have often sort of said that sometimes it might take longer to get in with a client, yeah, to get into an organization, but when they do, there's a real big opportunity in the sense that they, they do want to really help you out and do business with you, but it might just take a bit more longer to get that door open. Have you found that or no? Yeah, yeah, yeah, because that's maybe a good example. That, that would be related. So it's like you've got to think of that. Like, are you still going to be showing up trying to add value in, in 3 months' time or on the 8th touch point, or are you just going to give up after the second?

And this isn't, this isn't a new thing, is it? No, no, we've been hearing this in sales forever, right? Right before we got into it. And that's where I think a lot of people fall down. And what I try and instill in my people and our team and our business, you know, we're bringing work on and we put work on with a new company 2 weeks ago I speak to them for literally, literally 18 months. I must have had 12, 15 video calls. Australian company. Um, you've got to keep grinding, you've got to keep going back. You— if you're looking for instant gratification, then, then building a 360 recruitment test probably isn't for you. Like, you, you gotta, you gotta keep going. And I totally— whoever told you that is, is that it's harder to get work? Yeah, it requires a level of credibility. You have to showcase your value. And you just— it's just the beauty of follow-up and the consistency of follow-up will eventually reward you. And I think the US is that on— is that on the other—

the other common— the other common bit that you highlighted when we prepared for this was finding the no.

Yes.

And like, so I've heard this in a few different ways. Yeah, I put here, find the no bullshitters. But in my— the other way that I've heard—

not my words.

No, but the other way that I've heard it be told is the same thing, but they were just sort of like— my mate James's experience is where you'll have a call with someone and they'll be like, they'll even come across enthusiastic and be like, yeah, yeah, like, that all sounds great, Liam, whatever. And then you won't fucking hear from them ever again.

Yeah, or you lose the work, and maybe they've told you you're gonna get the work and that kind of stuff.

Yeah, stuff like that. So just talk to me about that. What does— because this is a US nuance— like, what does find the no mean? Is it that not taking a faceplate?

It happens all over the world, I'm sure.

Yeah, sure.

And maybe it's because there's just more opportunities here, you experience it more. Again, ask me in a year or two and I'll tell you whether it's a US thing.

Right.

It— I don't know what it is. I think sometimes when you call— and we're talking about clients here, aren't we?

Yeah.

Typically.

Yeah.

With clients. And I guess it could be applied to candidates as well. There is that feeling. I'm not sure why it is. I just see it as a great opportunity to— to look at ourselves. And if that's happened, you've missed something.

Yeah.

Yeah. And that's where the finding the no comes in. Like, rather than complaining, you know, being frustrated, like getting yourself down, complaining to your colleagues, how about you just look at it from a growth perspective and think, well, what didn't I ask? Or what didn't I ask well enough in that call, in those meetings? Because I've certainly missed something. It should never be, in my view, and again, what we try and what we, what we instill in the team here and what we'll be instilling in the new starters this week, like, it's always just, it's always on you. Like extreme ownership. And then ultimately it's on me for not training you well enough. That's our perspective. That's the culture that Tim's built in this company and what I joined. And that's always been instilled in the company. Because if you should never be surprised by it, if you're surprised by something going wrong, then maybe we need to look at ourselves and consider what could I have done differently? And that's, um, that's a huge part of our culture.

No, I love that. Yeah, I think, yeah, maybe we can find out in 2 years' time, but I think regardless if it is maybe a bit more of a something you might run into on a cultural piece is like, look at yourself in the mirror. That's, that's the best place to go.

Ask better questions. Yeah, practice better questions, ask better questions, try different things. You know, you're on a call, even if you're not the most experienced, there's certain points in calls or meetings where your gut's telling you something that didn't sound quite right. Let me dig into that a bit more. Yeah, let me mirror that. Let me label that. Let me, let me explore that area. And, and if you ask the right questions, they will explore it with you. Whereas if you leave it alone and just hope it doesn't rear its head, in my experience, that's when the deal goes down, or that's when they do something different to perhaps what they promised. Yeah.

So no, I do understand it because look, in my short time— I, I've been to New York before, been here for like 5 days now, and I think from a UK perspective, if you couple— if you couple with what we're talking about with like the enthusiasm, the accent, like I do get it. Like, like I do quite like that here in terms of like every person I speak to so far in Austin, particularly in interaction in shops and coffee shops or whatever, it's like quite an enthusiastic one and then quite like positive one.

Like, everyone's so friendly here.

Yeah. So like I walked into my friend's office and, um, the— I don't know if he's called a security guard or— but the person that's like in, in the, the lift there and stuff like that is saying good morning and fist pumping everyone, right? That's such an American thing, right? I absolutely love it.

She gets you ready for the day there.

Yeah. So I, I do, I do get like what we're talking about in terms of when some people will run into like, oh well, Liam said this but then this happened. Because if you couple that with like Liam also said that in his enthusiastic positive US accent and like that energy Do you know what I mean? I get why it could throw some people, but right, you're completely right.

I've done the same, by the way. I'm sure I've blamed— of course I have. But then you sort of take a step back and you think, wait a minute, like, this is an opportunity to get better.

Yeah, no, definitely.

And, uh, yeah, so, um, let's, let's get into some of—

let's get into some of, like, particular bits on, like, Liam's perspective on some things, because I really— I know you said, oh, like, surely this is all going to be things that everyone knows and all that, but a quote that I've actually said a lot recently is, um, basically we all need to be reminded more than we need to be taught. And this is the reality of like podcasts like this. That isn't from me, I've got that from listening to another podcast. So it's just like— but that, that really rings true in my world when we're talking about skill development training, because oftentimes if you think about all the, all the hours that you spent with your team training, oftentimes it isn't because they need to be taught new things, it's, it's probably because they need to be reminded to do those world-class basics.

I didn't do well enough at holding them accountable Exactly, yeah.

So the way that you sort of thought about getting back onto the tools, back properly in the trenches, building this, this US business— yeah, which was very much like, I didn't want to reinvent the wheel, was like terminology and things that you shared with me, right?

What I live by in recruitment. Yeah, so classically trained.

So let's just— I'd love to hear your take on, because we hear this a lot as well, so I think it'd be good to try and define this or like bring this to life, which is I've really committed to world-class basics and standards. Like, how would you define that to someone? Like, how would you define— how do you think about that? World-class basics in recruitment, world-class standards, what does that mean? Obviously it starts with, from my perspective, what we've already said— personal responsibility, extreme ownership. It has to start there. You have to be responsible for the service that you're doing, all of that.

That's the attitude.

That's the attitude.

Yeah.

How else do we define this, do you think?

Processes for the different elements of the job. And as we know, and most people listening to this understand, in 360 recruitment you've got so many things to juggle. Um, just simplifying each process. I think you, you get muddled and you have so much to do when you miss things because then you're just firefighting all the time. So I'm just hugely passionate about having a clear lead chasing process so that they're your, your hot business, your hot jobs you're chasing right now that you think you can convert in the next week or two. That's the business you can convert now. Having a clear client list target base, that's your relationship building, longer term work. And sometimes those two things overlap. So a lot of your target companies, of course, may well be hiring, but you need to separate those two BD strategies. I find people often do one of the two, one of the two, or sometimes neither. Um, and we can dig into those if you want.

Well, yeah, I guess, how— why don't we start with Tell us a bit more of what other processes would you think you then need to have like world-class standards based around? So you've got a lead chasing pro—

just break that and then we'll break it down. Lead chasing, client target list, relationship, longer-term business development stuff. When you win the work or about to win the work, investing more time at the front end of a process and setting the standards exceptionally high at the front end and being absolutely clear that you're the authority in that process because this is what we do. That's what we're experts at. Um, and then on the flip side, when you go to market, having again spending more time than maybe you already are on the candidate qualification screening process.

Yeah, so I think the way that you put, which I really like, is front load. So if you front load a lot of that standards work, really not cutting any corners, take that really seriously, yeah, then that you're going to increase your chances of like less bad stuff happening.

Yeah, so I think I used the example of like if you set your standards up here, like, and you drop slightly in the process, it's very easy to bring it back up. If you set your standards up here, it's almost impossible to climb those stairs and get back up because you've already set the precedent with the candidate, with the client, and that's when they start to ghost. That's when they start to disrespect you. That's when they start to go direct to the candidate or direct to the client, and then you start, and then you start to lose control. And then suddenly that, that pipeline you had is, is, is lessened by about 50%. Um, and I'm a big advocate of, you know, And I wish there was a better word for it, but controlling the process. Like, that's what the— for me, the best recruiters I've ever worked with do. They control a process expertly, and they're never surprised by anything because they're constantly finding the no. And I strongly believe it all starts at the very beginning, candidate and client side. So day to day, we're very fast-paced, we're making lots of calls, we have minimums of the calls we're making. It's very fast-paced and salesy. When you get the work, you sit back, you slow down.

Mm.

And that's why recruitment's hard, because you sometimes find people that are really, really good at the fast-paced stuff and they struggle with the consultative stuff, or vice versa. So, so yeah, fast-paced numbers, you know, minimum standards of calls, talk time, all those great things, but then slowing down when the business begins. That's kind of how I run my desk and how you think about it and how I look to train others and Jay and these other people, other persons that come into the business and just driving their standards. And why it's going to be easier for me to actually hold them accountable now is because I'm doing it every day as well. I was in the past, I was doing business development, passing work on, and, and although I was respected, it was harder to hold them accountable.

I wasn't doing it myself. Let's get into like— so I think that that'd be really helpful for people, what you just said. Let's just go into the bits that everyone always is always messing me about. The most common skill gap that we find in recruitment companies that we work with is that new business piece. Let's just talk about— because I'm sure you, you've seen this play out time and time again. You've even said some people may do one of them well, maybe neither of them well. What, what's Liam's like lead chasing process? Let's just start there. Like, what does that look like?

Yeah, not reinvent, reinvent the wheel again.

Let's go through it. So what minimum— how would you define a lead? How would you define a lead?

A, a, a job within your specialism. Okay, so within your niche, within the job function that you that you traditionally or have targeted to hire for in your geography. So a live job that you're aware of, whether that's from a lead from a candidate, ideally, or a lead from a client or referral from a client, or even your current client mentioned it, it still goes in the lead list. It's a hotter lead than a cold one, but it still goes in the lead list. They're the jobs in your niche that you're looking at every day. If your boss comes over and says, okay, so we really need some jobs, we really need some new clients, like, where are you going to get business from the next 2 weeks? You open your lead list and you talk them through it, and you have them. So you have a minimum, and you have a minimum amount you add of those per week, which is what typically— that will depend. I do think that will depend on the, the, the niche they're in, the market. What would you—

what do you like?

If there was like 10 quality leads, 10 nice, like quality leads though, like ones that are on the money in your space, in your specialism. Um, however, someone new to the game But we can work towards 10.

If you get— if you're always working towards getting 10 in your space, and some people will listen to that, that's not enough.

Um, but it depends how quality your work is. It depends, it depends how specialist your area, your desk is, and it will depend on your level of experience. Maybe people new to the game might need, if not, might need quite a few more to maybe convert as many jobs as a more experienced consultant.

So if I say to you then, you come out, you're my manager, you come over and go, Hishem, really, like, how's the job pipeline looking? Yeah, look at my leads list. Yeah, yeah, talk them through it. But I say to you, Liam, I've, I've worked that lead. What does that mean to you?

So the way we separate it, and we recently changed CRM and we like bespoke made it like based on what I feel is important. So you have like a minimum amount of calls, and then the idea is that you then move it on to a spec out, right? Um, and they're kind of in tandem at the same time. And then the idea is that you then move it on to spoken with hiring manager, and then the idea beyond that is booked video meeting or face-to-face meeting, and then we can separate each lead. So if my boss comes over and says, okay, so where your job's coming from, I open the video meetings booked first, right? I've got 4 in there, and then I open the spoken with the hiring manager because they're hotter, aren't they? They're further down the pipeline. So it's like a pipeline for your leads and going into that sort of granular detail. And then the idea is you have the video meeting, terms agreed, and that then converts to a job. Does that make sense?

Yes.

It's like carrying the lead through, through. Yeah, yeah.

So that's, that's like your— where you want the lead to end up. But are you saying if I say to you I've, I've like worked that lead but I wasn't able to get to speak to hiring, like what is it?

Just so we're looking at the amount of times you've called them, right? The different numbers you've called off.

Okay.

Um, we're looking at the spec out emails you've sent. Connections on LinkedIn, messages, emails on LinkedIn. Have you texted them? We switched the device recently, which is great because it enables us to send texts off the back of a voicemail, like AI-based text, and you can edit the text if you want. If you haven't tried every one of those things and called— and I'd say a lead, I'm not sure what you think, but how long do you think a lead's hot for?

Well, that's what— that was gonna be my next question. Obviously it differs from perm to contract, right?

Yeah, it does. Um, I'd say it's really hot for 2 weeks for me, like really hot for a week and then hot for 2 weeks, and then you still carry on targeting it week 3 and 4. But, but the reality is it's probably, um, probably further down the line then. You might miss your opportunity. But I'm a big advocate of continuing to track week 3 and 4 and 5 through. A lot of people don't do it.

So what category would that lead then go into, like company that I know hires is hard, like has hired.

Yeah, I just, I just check, change the in the notes section or create another section for leads that are beyond that period because by then you've got 2-3 weeks worth of hotter leads coming through. Yeah, so you just spend more time on them, but maybe you just send a slightly different, much more direct email in week 3 or week 4 if you really have called them umpteen times and you've tried all the— and, or speak to someone else in the business, basically a colleague, a counterpart in a different department. You just want to get some feedback as to whether that's filled and just tracking it through. The amount of business I've won over the years because I track through leads all the way.

Yeah, I love that.

It's incredible because they use another recruiter or they use internal talent. They think they've got it covered. They've got 2 final interviews. One doesn't turn up. One flops presentation stage. They are in deep pain then. And if you're the person that calls and follows up properly at that point, you've got an exclusive or retained client. But people give up after a couple of weeks. In my experience.

And how does this differ to long-term client list strategy, what we're saying there?

Um, I'd say that's more on the value piece. Okay, so you're not just calling up every time and asking for jobs, but you're maybe sending them a few candidates that you've, you've spoken with and seeing whether there could be a business— an opportunity for their business to bring someone in at that level. Um, you're looking to ask them what conferences or congresses they're at or exhibitions they're attending in the next 3-4 months, getting a meeting booked there. Maybe you should try and flip it and do a reverse headhunt if you're struggling to gain business traction with them. I think, you know, that sort of BD stacking, you know, you're calling at different points of the year, every month, 6 weeks, and just having a different conversation with them, understanding what their growth plans are off the back of those conversations. And the idea for me is that you're getting that lead again but you're getting it 2 months, 3 months before your competitors about them. So they don't even give other companies a chance. That's the— that's the idea of it. And I'm sure what lots of other recruiters do, you're trying to build a position where you can then add that as a lead, but you're 2 months ahead of budget being given and you've already got it tied up. That's, that's the ideal situation, I guess, the goal of the long-term relationship piece.

Whilst we take a short break, I wanted to take a moment to chat to you about one of our amazing partners, Sourcewell, the industry-leading recruitment engagement platform. I'm using myself and I don't know what I would do without it. From building personalized messaging cadences across a variety of channels to automating follow-ups and data tracking straight back into my CRM. It's really made an impact in streamlining my workflow and most importantly, accelerating my sales results. My favorite feature by far is the live feed. By being able to see in real time who's engaging with your campaigns, it enables me to prioritize my outreach with the most engaged prospects, which helps me get way more out of what I put in. So I'm going to be honest, if you haven't got Sourcewell and you're a recruiter, I really believe you're at a disadvantage. To find out more and see the platform in action, make sure you click the link in the show notes and mention the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. Because you listen to this podcast, you're going to be able to get access to an exclusive offer: free 50 phone credits 50 email credits, which is at the value of circa £500 per user. So make sure you mention the Recruitment Mentors podcast and click the link in the show notes. Just curious then, because I feel like this is also like a word that we hear a lot in recruitment, definitely on the LinkedIn newsfeed, is like value. You gave some examples, but like, how do you think about that? I'm just curious. So like, when you say, yeah, you're not just calling them and saying like, notice you're hiring, how are you getting on with that? You're trying to deliver value. So you've said a few different examples, but like, how do you think about that? If I— how do we define that? How— I know there's loads of different ways, but I don't know, how do you think about that? Because it is like— and it's— it does get chucked out there a lot.

It pretty different, like, especially to specialism. But sometimes you're like, again, like simplifying it, we assume a lot of knowledge, I feel. So if you've got a new company to market, we assume they know what to pay someone in a particular specialism in a particular state of the country, in the US for example. Because there's so many different, um, so many different states with different laws, regulations, taxes.

Um, so what I hear there is market insight.

Yeah, market insights, I think, is one way. And that's if you're in a niche, if you're going to deliver that, and, and just getting their opinion on it and, and just offering help, um, on those areas. And ultimately, again, like classically trained, going to them, don't assume that just because they told you a month ago they've got no space in the team that you can't go back with the— again, again, not reinventing the wheel, provide value with candidates. Like, candidates are our product.

Yeah.

And if you're in a super niche, a super specialized niche, then, then you are speaking to people that can add value to their company.

Particularly in your world, it's filled out like—

so we do, we do a lot of sales, we do a lot of, um, stuff pre-clinical as well, right? Marketing. Um, we specialize niche down within therapy areas like medical device areas, right? It's like Jay just, just does radiology, right? And then that enables him to help radiology startup and scale up companies across their whole product portfolio. So, but yeah, he knows what different departments, different levels within those departments get paid in different states. And maybe the, maybe the person that's just joined to launch the business doesn't know that yet. So it's simple things like that. And then just candidates and just not forgetting that that's how we can add value. It's our knowledge and our access to talent that their adverts through, through internal talent or HR just don't allow them to attract. Classic headhunting.

Yeah, I think this is just another thing as well, which is like I just again, like keep seeing online and I just keep hearing it time and time again and we're talking about which is like sendouts. Yeah, like I think people do shit on them and be like, oh yeah, like CV speccing doesn't work and all this. And like, I'm like, really? I'm like, that's just not true. Like, I'm just going from all the conversations that I have. Again, I think it's about extreme ownership and being like, how good are your sendouts? And like, we're not talking like the way that you described it there, is it? You're not saying like, I'm gonna speak to a field sales rep and then mail shot them out to a thousand different companies, right?

I'm not a big fan of that, doesn't work for me.

So like, how do we feel about this though? Because again, you're talking about that— that sounds like that's opened up doors for you. And like, I've, I've heard this time and time again.

I mean, in terms of like a thousand companies, but yeah, in terms of what you're talking about, getting— does work. Send out spec outs for me has always worked for us.

Yeah.

Um, I don't think— I, I find that you see a lot of stuff online now because everyone's trying to sell something different and everyone has got value. I— we feel like do the traditional, classically trained methods of winning business and recruitment and apply a modern spin. Invest in newer technology, use the newest technologies that are available, but don't stop everything that worked before and then expect all this stuff to work as well. And I'm someone that needs to like improve. We spoke about earlier, didn't we, about social media. Like, it doesn't come naturally to me to like build my own personal online brand. You know, we try, we— it works like But I feel like it works in addition to the, the, the, the, uh, the classically trained sales skills and recruitment skills that we're taught whenever we, whenever we join industry. Um, and I feel like as long as people that say that it doesn't work either probably aren't doing enough of them consistently enough, or maybe they're just not niche enough, specialist enough, and they're not, they're not on the money. They've got to really be on the money for that person's need. Yeah, you have to work in an industry and a specialism for for a decent amount of time to truly know what that looks like.

Um, the bit that I would just add that I picked up on— I don't know what you think about this, just to round this bit out— would be I think great recruiters will— like we said, the candidate piece is, is like, for a lack of a better term, a product, right? In terms of the— in the recruitment game. Yeah, they're people that we can represent, they're people that can open up doors, but we can genuinely change their career. We can genuinely get them an amazing opportunity, work for their their dream employer, whatever. A great recruiter will, uh, use that. And then, like you said, firstly be very specific and targeted because they have that market expertise and know that these would be the types of organizations that they could add a lot of value to, that could impact, could really use their expertise, and also should match up with like what this person is looking for. So that, that's one.

Yeah.

But then if I call Liam and I tell you about this person and you say, look, Hishem, we're not, we're not hiring, a great recruiter isn't going to go, okay, right, like, when are you hiring, or these things. What they will do is use that as the reason they're calling them and speaking to them, but they'll do everything they can to try and walk away with some information, or at least learn about that business. Because then what these great recruiters will do is they'll then start building a list of companies that they understand what skills that maybe they often find difficult to hire, or if if budget wasn't an issue and everything was, um, in a really good position right now, they'd love X type of person in the business.

They—

whatever it may be, they then start building a list of companies that would look at X skill set, X people. And then guess what happens in whatever timeline? You speak to Liam, who has— who ticks those boxes. You're going to call them and you're going to make them feel like you listened, that you understood, and go, you know, last time you told me about the— if budget wasn't an issue, you'd hire someone like this. I actually just spoke to someone.

Yeah, you repeat back what they asked.

Yeah, you get what I mean? And this is all the same activity right? Yeah, but that's what great recruiters do, and it's combining that market expertise, all that listening, gathering information, and then using that to their advantage on the phone as well. Yeah, all on the phone. Yeah, that's the advantage.

Yeah, because I think emails, emails are emails. Yeah, yeah, we can't influence on email. We can, we can pique interest, we can't influence, and that's where the magic happens.

Yeah, so it's just like, are you doing that? Like when we're talking about, yeah, the speccing out the sendouts, it's like, are you actually doing that, or are you just sending out what you know maybe somebody would be interested in, hoping to see what happens?

Phone first. And we have to email as well though, because it's one of the methods that can work for some people. And it's another opportunity to put your name in their mind and show them the value you can add with candidates. But yeah, phone first, build those relationships, listen. And that's why using the system is so important and notes are so important. That's why, again, I'm like, just going back to basics, like just record what's— you know, AI helps us now with— and phone recordings help us in terms of text, um, uh, the text that comes off the phone calls in AI and going to our systems. But you have to record the information that you're getting from these clients and take the— because otherwise that's something you call them, it's exactly the same call. You haven't used— you mentioned, well, the information you gained from that call, you haven't used it to your advantage next time. Um, so again, just, just go back to basics. If you can't get business, get information. Use that information to make the call a lot warmer next time and go back with some talent that can potentially help them grow their business.

What we're saying on— to close it out on process, I know there's other bits, but clear process, qualifying jobs, what we're saying there, because again, that's like the front-loading stuff, isn't it?

This is, this is the best. This is the best bit for me. This is, this is where you really, really like turn and can start converting your fill rates. Um, if they're used to a 25-30 minute phone call, you tell them, so that we can't get anywhere near what we need to get through in 25-30 minutes. If you insist on that, then I'm not the right partner for you. And I think we're— and we've all been there, right? When you, when you first get into recruitment, I've got a new client, got a vacancy. For us now, we don't work multi-agency. Yeah, so we're a retained and exclusive permanent recruitment business within medical technologies. Um, the only time we might is if we really, really, really want to work with a company, we want to get some terms of business in place, and we know we've got someone or two people available in the space that fit what they need. Generally speaking, we walk away from that business. I'd rather spend time winning new, better clients and keeping in touch with those companies when they're ready to go. It's retained, mm-hmm, then work multi-agency. So I think commitment levels when you're taking on work are vitally important. And as we know, again, we've heard it all before, the biggest waste of recruitment there is for me is working for free and working on a role before you even begin, you've got less than 30% chance of filling it if they're using 2, 3, 4 others.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, more quality work is what we're building this business in Austin based on. Mm-hmm. Taking a step back and being authoritative in that take-on call. Mm-hmm. Asking amazing questions. You mentioned it before, listening, repeating back what their needs are.

Mm-hmm.

Really, really, really digging under the surface of that.

Mm-hmm.

What else? What else? What else? What else? Repeating back, repeating back, repeating back, validation. And then at the end of that call, telling them how you operate, not asking, telling them how you operate, telling them what's going to happen next, and tell them what that's going to mean to the process, i.e., how quickly we're going to deliver a talent for you, how quickly you can have someone on board. Because over here in the US, it is about speed. We're talking about notice periods of a week or two, and everyone wants someone yesterday. As the classic saying goes, when can you start someone? Yesterday. Everyone wants someone yesterday. So what does that actually mean? Digging into the budget, how long they've been looking, and just, just if it takes an hour and a half, it takes an hour and a half, but it's an hour and a half, a valuable hour and a half, because you leave that call with commitment, probably initiation fee or retainer, or at least an exclusive client. That you can confidently go and spend hours of your time on because you know it's going to convert to business.

What's in it for them?

What's in it for them?

You just said how it's good for you.

Access, speed. Yeah, again, not reinventing the world. They get high-quality talent at speed.

And you're saying you're able to do that because you're really comfortable committing the time.

Yeah.

And also then you're—

yeah, we have a total understanding. They leave the call. Yeah. Best case scenario with our business, Projectus, they leave the call feeling so confident that we know we're an extension of them. We know so much about what they need in a person, in experience, in a culturally to fit their business, which is obviously so important for, for early stage and growing organizations. Um, they feel so— they should feel so confident that we know what they want, they don't need to speak to anyone else. And then we also, if you're not booking an update call 24 hours after and then a week after the search, then again, you're losing control. And that's where you validate the search 24 hours after and then a week after again. And I never leave an update call without another update call booked.

What would you update them on 24 hours after?

What I've seen for the market so far, that's probably for new clients. I don't do that for, we wouldn't do that for a client we've worked with before.

Yeah, sure.

For a new client? I think you need to test the brief, Hishem. I think you've got to test, okay, is what they're looking for achievable? And we can give them insight on the first call, but I don't like to like jump two feet in. I like to give myself 24 hours to like assess, okay, is what you're looking for— does it exist? You know, what's the total market, estimated market population for what you, for what you're looking for? Have some conversations, speak to my network, is the salary on point? Are they paying enough for their experience? And just particularly for new clients, revalidating after a day's work of speaking to the market as to whether it's achievable. And all right, because otherwise you could spend a whole week before your first update call— no, no, yeah, working on a search, speak to 15 people and realize—

no, I do like that—

realize they're $30,000, $40,000 per year under budget. Yeah. And you've, and you've Not to start again in week 2.

So, you know, you said it's really— let's just say, like, people listening have done a really good job of really understanding the, the bits that you mentioned, the culture, the, the must-haves versus the nice-to-haves, all that. You said you have to then make sure that you outline the process, how you work. So it seems like you're talking about there, what— let's say it's a new client, what would that typically look like? So you're saying 24 hours, we're going to book, um, like a— like you just said, it could be, it could be literally 15 minutes.

Yeah. Could be a phone call, could be video.

But like you're saying, what I'm going to do is you're going to offer some initial insights, be consulted around— from what I've understood today, yeah, we should like— there'll be people—

yeah, yeah, we go back, we, we offer insights, we also offer alternatives. So you sell back new ideas. Say it's quite— for me, the, the hardest briefs, the ones that are the most open or the most closed. So that's another— another— you do it in a take-on call, the kickoff call. If you just the first time you've worked with them, you can influence them in that call. But sometimes you need to give yourself 24 hours to go back and then reopen this, either close it, close it down, or open it up depending on— and then give us some evidence and like give us some evidence, some profiles on LinkedIn. Even if you haven't spoken to the candidate, doesn't matter. You're just pitching new ideas and you're again, you're showing value because, okay, we— because sometimes clients, we just assume they know what they're looking for. Quite often They don't. They think they do, but they don't actually know what the market's telling us. And they don't know there's a different type of responsibility that also has skills that are relevant for that role. So we go back and we sell new concepts and we try and open the brief up in that call as well.

You're doing that 24 hours, maybe sometimes 48 hours, and then you're saying after that there's a week check-in point.

Yeah, I just don't leave it. For me, I started it about 5 years ago. You should never go a week without speaking to your client.

Like weekly sync call.

If I'm a big advocate of putting yourself in the shoes of them, they've spent an hour and a half of their time, or an hour, hour and a half of their time with you. They've invested. It's their livelihood, it's their business, it's their team. How often do recruiters just go, oh, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna update them because I've got nothing to give them, I've got nothing to tell them? If you've got no news, that's an opportunity to go and tell them there's no news and the reasons why. Show them data, open the brief up, get more budget, sell a different candidate in with a different background, get an interview. And I don't leave an update call until we've got the next one booked. And they feel in control then because they've got an opportunity to hold me accountable as well.

So every week there's, you're having that call with them.

If you're working, could last 40 minutes, it could last 10. Okay. There might be some interviews in between. Maybe you haven't had a chance to connect. Maybe one opportunity to take, to take interview feedback on video. More personal. Video calls last longer typically than phone calls.

And then on your process, you typically saying on average, this is my market specialist niche, we're looking at a typical time to hire of this.

Yeah. If they allow us to actually redesign their interview process, then yeah, we're looking at, we're looking at 3, anywhere between 3 to 4 weeks from start to finish. Yeah. Unless they, unless they've got like something like some ridiculous process that's, you know, unchangeable of like 6, 5, 6, 7 interviews. But generally speaking, if it's between 2 to 4 interviews, yeah, in this market it moves so quickly. We need to, we need to get to a point where you're hiring within, within 3 to 4 weeks.

Which is why those that like weekly sync call, having that just always comes. Yeah.

How quick does a working week go? Um, and it also puts a level of urgency on yourself to make sure that you're maximizing the time. Wait a minute, I've got to speak to my client in, in 5 working days and give them an update on who I've got. I better get, get my act on. Whereas if you, if you just leave it open-ended, I don't feel like you're offering a world-class service. I love that.

So you just had 2 people join the business.

We have.

You're first US nationals to join the business, which is obviously really exciting, right?

Jason and Taylor.

Yeah, that's why you're building a US business, right?

Yeah, 100%. We're very open-minded, and we've obviously got the E-2 business visa approval that myself and Jay are on, so we can, we can bring amazing high, high billing, yeah, industry-relevant recruiters from the UK. But ultimately, the majority of our employees are probably going to be US nationals. We're here on the ground, so, so what are you excited?

Yeah, yeah. What are you like, so What are you doubling down on? What are you really excited for? What's going on? Just talk to me, mate. What are you really doubling down on? Like, this must be just, just in general with the team, like, what's top of mind for you? What are you really gonna just focus on? Focus on— yeah, we're getting towards the end of the year, going into next year. What are you gonna really try and do?

Let's start with recruitment. We've got quite a clear strategy here in the US, particularly definitely for the first two, probably for the next two as well. We decided to hire experienced people So we've hired salespeople from our industry.

Mm-hmm.

So they know sales, they're high-performing salespersons. They also know the specialism within that they've been selling the products and the niche that they're going to be working within for us. So we teach them recruitment process, we teach them all those great things we're talking about today— control, standards, lead chasing, business development, all those great things. They understand how to sell, they're relationship builders, they're great people, and they're high-performing salespeople, and they know their markets. It's hard to get them, but we worked really, really hard to get them. We just teach them process. So we've deliberately gone down that route as opposed to going with the more traditional, like, entry-level or junior recruiter here. We realized that credibility is so important in medical technologies due to the sort of, I guess, the education and the level of people, the people we're dealing with, you know, C-level and otherwise. A lot of academics and people coming from medical industry, they're highly intelligent individuals. They kind of expect credible people, experienced people that know their space when you pick up the phone to them. So that's something we're doubling down on, making sure that we hire the right people. If that means we hire less, that's fine. It's about quality. And then when they're in the business, we're doubling down on all the things we spoke about today. They don't know recruitment, so that they know no different. So we're training as if retained work is standard. That's just how we operate. Doubling down on that. I'd rather each of them have 4 committed, exclusive retained clients than I would 15 multi-agency. So I'm doubling down on that. I mean, if they can have 8, 10, 14 retained clients, even better. But if I'm given the option, it's about the quality of our work, high fill rates, world-class service. And, um, yeah, we're doubling down on the specialisms as well, making sure they really play in their area because they're all big enough markets across the United States. So, so yeah, I think I'm just using all of the, I guess, mistakes and failures maybe that I've made naturally, like we all have over the years, and, and seeing this as a great opportunity to, to, to, to build on a great projectors business but build a Projectors USA business from, from the ground up. Um, and quality first, always.

I love that. Look, I think this is like why I do genuinely just love our industry so much. Like, the— what— like, one, the amount of skills that you learn is just— it's just— there's just so many skills all encompassing. Yeah, like just so many skills that you collect and build over the industry, uh, over your time in the industry. And then also when you're in the right environment, when you're in the right business you can genuinely be given like life-changing opportunities. Um, you know, you've moved you and your family to the US, you've now got this really unique opportunity to build something, to leave your mark, like whatever you want to call it, right? And your, um, and recruitment's enabled you to do that. A career in recruitment has enabled you to do that. So like, yeah, really excited to see how it all unravels from afar. But thank you. Like, no doubt, like, I just love your passion around like this quality piece and I just like, this is what it's all about at the end of the day. Like, there would just hopefully be more and more people in our industry with that commitment. And what does that mean? Just more and more, um, people are going to respect our industry because they have a quality service when they work with people like you and these things.

Big thing in the US, by the way, it's just seen as a, as a, as a genuine like career. And we know it is an amazing career, right? Because we work, we're in it, we've seen it, we've lived it, we've breathed it. I don't know what your perspective is, but it's not necessarily for the average person that hasn't worked in recruitment doesn't necessarily see it that way.

No, not in the UK.

In the UK, in the US, it definitely— the headhunting thing definitely feels that way. And just a final point, those persons in our business have a huge opportunity. You're absolutely right, Jay, Taylor, Jason, huge opportunity. These are leaders, directors of the future. Jay's already a director, but they can all build their specialisms, they can all split it 4 or 5 different ways. So we want to get to 20 people in the next 5 years, it's $5 million revenue, um, which is so achievable with that amount of people. It's like $300,000 average per head. So a lot of us are going to be doing a lot more than that, as we already are. Um, but then you have some newer people and some more junior people coming through the business at that time as well. So people that join our business now, the ones here and the next 2, 3, huge opportunity to build, build their own businesses within our business. So yeah, huge, huge opportunity.

See what happens.

Can't wait.