Walking Away From Your Contract Book and Building A Successful Contract Desk with Haseena Mooncey

Like, when I set up, that was the absolute right time for me to do it because I thought 7, 10 years down the line, I might be in a completely different situation. I might, you know, have more responsibilities than I did. And I was like, if I set up now, that long-term gain is going to be there for me.

Hasina Moonsi, the co-founder of Life Science Talent Partners. After she successfully climbed the ranks of a recruitment business and became their top biller, in January 2022, she decided to launch her very own recruitment business with her co-founder Chris. In just 2 short years, they've grown the team to a team of 6 and generated circa £2 million in revenue. So how did she do it?

I think they all call it golden handcuffs because you're walking away from a big fat book. Yeah, you're getting paid off that book regardless of whether you bill or not.

This is what you're going to learn in this week's episode: how to overcome and manage self-doubt when launching your own business, how to build a contract desk entirely from scratch.

When you first start out, you're going to have to ask the difficult questions because people move quick, people find out quickly, and you've got to be on top of it. The secret to maintaining long-term relationships with your contractors, cuz if you're building those relationships with the candidates, ultimately they'll give you the leads. So those are your green shoots.

The art of lead generation and how to become world-class at maximizing information from your network. Let's get into this week's episode. Hasina, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, thank you for having me on.

Looking forward to this. I know you— so you were just saying you've been told by several people, um, you're— the things that, like, you being on the podcast would be interesting.

So yeah, I have a lot to say, so let's see how it goes.

Yeah, exactly. And, uh, we got here because your, your co-founder said that you are one of the, the best contract recruiters he's ever worked with.

Could be true. I mean, he went into business with me, so yeah, I think that says something.

Yeah, absolutely. And, um, yeah, so we're, we're going to talk about your nearly 6 years, um, in, in the recruitment industry. What we're going to mainly focus on today is for the last 2, you've been building CHR Life Sciences with Chris. Yeah. Did you work with each other at HRS?

Yes. So funnily enough, Chris actually recruited me into recruitment.

Okay, nice. Yeah, so Chris was your like first manager?

Yeah, so I had an interview with him and our old founder And then they said, you know, why do you want to do recruitment? And I just sat there and I was like, do you know what, I'll be honest, it's not something I thought of. I wanted to enter medical sales and I think pharmaceutical recruitment gave me that sort of impact on the industry that I wanted. And I went on to talk about that and then I was like, so it's like Chris is my fairy godmother. It made me memorable.

Yeah, got me the job.

So yeah.

So you worked at HRS for nearly 4 years, was one of their, their top billers there, and you've always been in contract, which is why I said to you, right, in terms of why Chris dropped me a note is I've really tried to have a push on having more contract recruiters on the pod because I've had a lot more perm recruiters. Um, and then since you set up CHR, you did a retainer to start, but you've like been building the contract book, right? So just to give people some highlights then, so let, let me know if I get any, any of this wrong. Okay, so, uh Uh, in terms of like before you started, uh, your own business, I think you shared with me that over the 3 years that you were there, overall you made— you did a million in profit in 3 years across—

over the place. And then by the time I left, it was probably a bit more.

Yeah. And then I think I've got here 50K monthly. Was that like your peak?

Yeah, I'd say that was my peak.

Um, and then record contract recruiter of the year 2021. Let's go!

Yeah, cheers! 2 years ago though.

Um, still though, pretty cool. Um, Cool. So there's some of the things around HRS. And then in terms of your own business now with Chris, um, where we're at is you're, uh, gonna do this year circa $2 million, uh, in revenue. And then there's 5 of you in the business.

Yeah.

And I think you shared with me here, um, in terms of way around— you're around, uh, year 2, uh, contract billings-wise, you've written up around $500K.

Yeah, well, it's almost $600K now.

Okay, nice. Cool. All right, so we're going to unpack this journey that you've been on. So let's start though. I'd love to hear your take on what do you believe are the common characteristics and traits that make up a successful contract recruiter?

So for contract recruiters, I feel like Chris even still gives it to me. He's like, oh, contract recruiters are like slimy car salesmen. And I'm like, no, we're not. Like, the good ones aren't. So I think the two things would have to be they've got to be confident and they've got to be humble because when you're building out a contract desk and you're building those connections, people see through, they see through you. They become your friends and they're not gonna like you if you're arrogant, they're not gonna like you if you are like that typical, I guess stereotypical recruiter where, you know, people don't have a good rep. So I think those are the two main things. You've got to be confident in that you'll go to events similar to how we met, I just went up to you, I was like, are you Hishem? And you're like, yeah, that's what you have to do. You have to put yourself out there and you've got to get comfortable in the uncomfortable.

I feel like— I don't know if you found this either when you was at HRS or when you're hiring people now— sometimes people can have a hard time being themselves in like a work context. How did you find that? Like, was it— did you sort of— was it quite natural for you to like be your like authentic self? Obviously you hear that word a lot, right? So I don't know, like, how, how did you How did you find that? Because I think it definitely took me a bit of time. Yeah, like if I think of when I first started in recruitment, I really like— I don't know, it wasn't like a really natural voice. I was quite concerned about how I'd be perceived.

Yeah, I think it comes down to individuals. I was really lucky that I had a really good team when I was at HRS. Like, we all got along really well, we worked well together, and I'm someone who can just be myself easily because I'm kind of like, well, if you don't like it, then that's on you. And I think even my contractors, I am pretty much myself. Yeah, but it comes down to different people because we had one girl who started, um, our first employee came in obviously sitting with two directors. I'd hate for that to be me. She came in, sat on her bag, and she was nervous. But it takes time, yes, to build up to being who you actually are, but that's normal in any job, I think. I think it's getting that fine balance between showing who you are but also having that professional side as well.

Why do you think you're— it's quite easy for you to not be con— like, what you just said there isn't common for everyone in terms of, like, if you don't like who I am, then that's, that's fine. I think a lot of people worried about other people's opinions, like, where— yeah, where's that come from?

I think it comes with age. I'm not that old, but I used to be really shy. Like, really? Yep. I wouldn't order something in a restaurant. I would be really shy. Yeah, I was.

You wouldn't order something in a restaurant? So who would order stuff for you?

Mum and dad. Wow.

I would not think that.

Yeah, I was such a shy girl. And then, yeah, I got my first job at 14 and it was at Kumon. So it's like maths and English and I was put on the front desk. So doing that, I had to speak to parents, kids every Saturday morning, every Monday evening. And it just changed me. And I think from that young age, working and putting yourself in situations you don't like, you just have to be— I hate it, but people say be unapologetically yourself.

It's actually so cringe, but it's true.

Like in recruitment, because you spend so much of your time at work going to events, speaking to people, it's long hours. You can't fake it. Like, people say fake it till you make it. Don't do that. That's the worst thing you can do. Be yourself.

Wow. I would not imagine you to say that you're shy.

I was such a shy girl.

Really?

Yeah. I don't know what happened. Don't know what changed.

Yeah, no, that's awesome. Um, so let— like, let's talk about— let's get into this. Like, you obviously— I want to talk about the, the last 2 years, right? Mainly, but I guess, how did you feel going into knowing that you, 'cause I feel like the really interesting thing about contract recruitment, I was just interviewing someone that's in perm recruitment, you go into the next year and you're back to zero, right? Which is, that's hard, it's like part of the process, but with contract recruitment, there's a lot to walk away from if you leave the company you work for, You've worked your absolute socks off to get to your— get your contract back to where it is, and for you to then leave, it's like, fuck, that— like, there's even more to like leave, right? So you and Chris starting this business, you, you had to leave what you'd built. You had to leave. You knew how much money he was making each month. No doubt, like, it was really challenging to get to where it— where, where it got to. Like, I've learned about you, you really take your relationship seriously, so you also know you're gonna have to not be able to speak to these people anymore. So just talk to me about you know, particularly as a contract recruiter starting a recruitment business, like what was going through your mind going into those first early months? Because like you basically had to start from zero, which you wouldn't have for the 4 years and when you started building things up, right?

Yeah, I think they all call it golden handcuffs because you're walking away from a big fat book.

Yeah.

And you're getting paid off that book regardless of whether you bill or not. And that was hard. Like it was like, I'm walking away from this, I've taken off like the safety blanket. I'm not gonna be able to speak to the people that I speak to every day for 6 months. It was like a breakup but with like 100 different people. 'Cause it's like, you're so used to talking to them and like they send you pictures of their grandkids, like you're always messaging, you're always on the phone. I remember one time a contractor called me at 8 PM. I was like, what's happened? Is someone dying? Why is he calling me? Turns out he just wanted to chat. I was like, okay, cool. And it's like taking that away for 6 months was so, so difficult. And I also remember, like, it was between Christmas and New Year, um, I messaged Chris at like 3 AM and I was like, I was like, I can't do this. I was like, because it's such a big step that you've got to take. But the thing that I had, like, the faith in was my relationships. And I thought, these first 6 months, actually, it's not a bad thing. Because what I did was went out to another market, built that out, and that's benefited us today. And then once those 6 months are over, everyone's buzzing to hear from you. Like, I remember I was just back to back with calls, like nonstop for like 2, 3 weeks, just people wanting to know where I've been, what I've done. Unfortunately, all I'd done was work, nothing exciting, but they were so engaged in the journey. And I think I mentioned to you before, like those relationships that you build. So one of the first ever contractors I met, I met him at King's Cross Station for a coffee. No idea what he looked like, no picture on LinkedIn. His WhatsApp picture was Tasmania. I was like, I don't know, yeah, I was like, what's gonna happen? Met him, loveliest guy ever, still meet up with him for coffees now, and he introduced us to one of our biggest clients. So it's those relationships that you're not going to see the benefit of straight away, but you will get there and you'll build it. But you've got to have that genuine desire to build those relationships, build out your market, because if you do it well, then you're laughing.

What was going through your mind at 3 AM that made you send that message? Like, what was your most fearful of? Because I think this is good for people to know, like, who are in contract recruitment. And, you know, a lot of people— you can do these interesting things now on— if you listen to the podcast on Spotify, I can do like polls. And one of the polls I did recently was, um, how, how many of you have thought about setting up on your own?

Yeah.

And a lot of people voted, yeah, I think about it a lot. And I feel like when you're in contract, as we've said, there's a lot more to walk away from. So what, what was it that you was really fearful of? Was it fearful of, of failing? Was it fearful of being Do you, did you back yourself to like build up the book again?

Yeah.

What was you really fearful of?

So I had another offer and it was for a—

To be employed?

Yeah, be employed, executive search company, building out their contract function because that's what will make them profitable when they want to sell. And it was a fat offer. They were giving me a guarantee for 6 months.

Big juicy one.

Yeah, it was amazing. And I was like, I'm walking away to literally go to nothing But then Chris sort of put it to me, he was like, you're building out a contract function for someone else, why wouldn't you want to do it for yourself? He's like, you know you can do it. And I think it was that, I think they call it imposter syndrome, where I'm kind of like, oh no, I can't do it, I'm not good enough. And it's just having that faith and belief in yourself because you can do it, you've got the relationships, you've got the know-how, you've got the methodology, you need to apply it to a new market for the first 6 months and then from there build it back up Yeah, so it's fair enough. Yeah.

Oh yeah, I forgot you said, yeah, there's another offer on the table. Yeah, that must have been, uh, yeah, it was.

I was kind of at the point where I was like, look, when I left I was what, 25? Didn't have like a husband, didn't have a kid, I had a mortgage, but it, it was fine. Like, I was like, the worst thing that's gonna happen is I'm gonna set up and we fail, then I just find another job.

Yeah, that I was going to say. Like, I find it really useful in those scenarios just to genuinely ask, really think about what is the worst case scenario. And when you have the skill that you do, the worst case scenario is you go back to the fatter offer and do that for somebody else.

Yeah, exactly. And I thought that was like, when I set up, that was the absolute right time for me to do it because I thought, you know, 5, 7, 10 years down the line, I might be in a completely different situation. I might, you know, have more responsibilities than I did. And I was like, if I set up now, that long-term gain is going to be there for me.

Yeah.

And I think we're doing okay.

Nice. So, so I know, I know we didn't want to talk about the, the 90-day plan, right? Which I'm not gonna ask you. Yeah. But obviously I think people would want to know like how you approach those first 6 months because of course you would have loved to just, yeah, be able to, that's why we have covenants, right? People need to protect their business. So like how did you go about that? Was it straight to, right, who can I get on the phone to? Who can I start building relationships with? Like how did you approach those first couple of months?

So in the UK I've got quite a specific market. So it was QPs, so that's a qualified person. They essentially, release a drug to market, say that it's safe, in literal layman's terms.

I thought that's what you did previously. Sorry.

Yeah, so that's what I was doing, doing it again now. And I thought that, look at the UK, can't touch that because everyone I've worked with is like, they're the contractors to be in touch with. I was like, so I can't do that at all. So I thought, where's logical for me to look at? So I looked at Ireland because I was like, no language barrier, no time difference, and the method in terms of recruitment is the same. Like, it's all contract, you've got the professionals, you know what they need to do. So I was like, let me go to Ireland, let me build that out. But then I was like, at the same time, to de-risk it, if the Irish QP market is rubbish, let me look at different areas. So I stupidly looked at— I did a bit in Belgium, did a bit in Germany. And I think if one thing, if I could go back and change something, I would have just stuck to Ireland completely, just committed to that. Yeah, I think they say inch wide, mile deep. Yeah, that's what I would have done. I think I spread myself too thinly, and I think that's the—

why do you think you did that?

Panicking. Just kind of like, if, if this market doesn't work out, I need like backup. But it did work out, and I should have had more belief in myself. But at the same time, I think I've learned a lot from that.

How long would you— like Kira said, how long would you— because I'm sure you will help future people your team think about this, but like, how long would you give a market from a contract terms in terms of for you to feel like I've given this a good— if you're doing like the basics right, the thing I'm doing, the, the things I need to do right, how long would you typically, uh, give it to go, you know what, we've really given that market a crack, maybe it wasn't what we thought it was? What are your thoughts on that? I feel like I'm going to delve into a 90-day plan here, you know, just in terms of like what, like because you said you would have, you would have gone to other places because you might not have been seeing the things that you thought you would have been seeing by that time. So I'm just curious, like, from looking back or whatever, how long do you think is a fair amount of time to go, you know what, I've really given that market a go? Because you could leave too early.

You could, like, is what you're saying, you could leave on like the cusp of a deal.

That's what I'm saying.

Yeah, I think so. With me, what I would do first is they always say candidate is king, and I truly— or queen, because politically correct. Um, but your candidate's going to give you everything. So I would spend a good 1-2 months speaking to the candidates, getting to know them. And I said to the guy that I'm training at the moment, every call you have with a candidate, you've got to come up with a fun fact for them.

So, oh, what?

Sorry, a fun fact?

A fun fact?

Yeah, that's a new one.

So we're not, we're not, we're not a lead. It was like, I don't want leads, I want fun facts.

No, it's true. I was like, I want a fun fact. Because no offense, someone called you and they wanted a lead straight away, you're not going to give it to them. I don't know you, I don't trust you. Like, who are you?

Yeah.

Whereas if you get a fun fact from them, that's something that you can call them back and you can ask them about it.

What could, what could the fun fact be?

Well, the first guy I got him to call, I was like, call this guy. I was like, I know the fun fact about him that he'll tell you, find it out. Fun fact was on a Wednesday afternoon and Saturday mornings he trains karate. And I knew that, I knew that he, the guy was in my consultant's market and I was like, you need to find out what it is. Next time you called him, oh, 'How was karate last night?' And building that and just finding something really random that other people don't care about but the individual is actually passionate about themselves helps you stand out because it shows you care about them as a person, 'cause we are all human. We don't wanna be treated like just another candidate on a system who's got a few buzzwords on a CV. So I'd say, yeah, build out the candidate side, speak to them for a good few months, that will help you get your leads. I'd say most of my leads now are generated from my candidates, they just call me up and they say, I'm contracting here. Like, loads of candidates speak to— I've never placed, but they give me the leads, they bring the business in because it's that relationship that you've got, and people want to help people. Yeah, but people that they trust. So it's going back to that whole humble piece.

So, so 1-2 months, really commit to the candidates, as you said.

Yeah.

And then what would be some of the, like, green shoots that you'd expect to see? Is it— is the main thing that I should be looking at is the amount of leads that I'm getting in terms of, like, projects and things that are going on? that would make me feel like, right, there's definitely some traction in this market, or there's things that's happening that is making me feel better about giving it another 2 months.

Yeah, 'cause if you're building those relationships with the candidates, ultimately they'll give you the leads. So those are your green shoots. You find out a lead, you contact the company, you get the role on, you speak to more candidates. They're like, okay, this girl or guy knows what they're talking about because they know that that project's happening there. From that, you do your classic recruitment. Okay, so, exposing all my secrets here.

Everyone does, it's all good.

Okay, so I've got this role here, they're like, I'm not interested. I'm like, why aren't you interested? Oh, because I've got another project I'm interviewing for. What's that? And you just build it out from there. That gives you a new lead and it's just that cyclical thing. And I think the thing with contract is, it's very much up and down, buoyant. Things can happen literally overnight. I remember a few years ago before the Christmas party, got a new job on, had to deliver the candidate the offer literally as we were leaving.

Really?

Yeah, literally. Massive deal.

Like, contract's mad like that, isn't it? Because like, if you didn't— if you didn't take action on that, someone else could have got it. It wasn't exclusive. Like, you have to fucking just be on it for the next like 48 hours, basically.

Literally. And that's why I hate taking annual leave. Took a day off my birthday, Chris posts new consultant role available. I literally called him up, I was like What are you doing? He's like, it's your birthday, have a day off. I was like, honestly, get lost.

No, um, is that, is that the case though? You've got like, if you, if you get given a contract role, like, do you literally have to be on it for 48 hours?

I'd say 24, if I'm honest.

Really? So in 24 hours, what would, what would you want to, where would you want to be in terms of like, send over 3 contractors for them to meet?

Yeah, yeah, it would be a question of, I tried to do it on the set. So let's say I had a call after this new contract role, I'd expect to have 3 to 5 CVs by the end of the day to the client. Yeah, because that shows that you know who to call, you're in with the network. And then what I'd spend the rest of— so first 24 hours, get the profiles that are going to go to the client. Next 24 hours, closing off the rest of the market, because people move quick, people find out quickly, and you've got to be on top of it. Yeah, you've got to always— yeah, just close off everyone that you can.

That is a mad thing about contracting.

Yeah, it just—

you gotta be—

but I'm impatient, so I love contract. I don't think I could do perm. Yeah, too much waiting.

Because on the flip side, if you get a lead and you know, uh, yeah, you find out who the company is, how long would you attempt to like action that lead or like try and get hold of them before you like stop trying to action it, if you get what I mean? Because I think there's also a bit of a time window there, right? Because you know how quickly people can move. Yeah, so if you just found, found out so-and-so, there's a, there's a contract project over here, or they're hiring contractors.

Yeah.

And then you're trying to get hold of them, are you giving it like 48 hours trying to be all over it, and then you're following up? Or do you know what I mean? Do you have like a, a window on that where you're like, this is probably being filled, I'm still going to try and get hold of that? I don't know.

So I would— so what I would do is find out the lead from a candidate. Straight away I'd call the next best person I know for that job and say, have you been called about this role? Because I know my competitors, they're amazing. Like, there's one guy who's doing really well, um, and I know that he would have called that person if he's on that job. So I would call the next best person, see if they've been called, and then after that I'll call the client and I'd say, I've got you someone who is what you're looking for, can solve this problem that you— yeah. And that's— yeah, that's how I'd work it.

That's a great little tip, to be fair.

Thank you.

Yeah, rather than— yeah, but do you think there is a bit of a— because I'm just like probing you about it because I do feel like it's definitely different to perm obviously, but because of the way that you're— what— the way that you operate, there's got to be like a shelf life of like how long that lead is. Like, do you know what I mean? Like hot, for example. Yeah, it's like a much shorter window.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. But then at the same time you get a contract role. So we had someone interview 5 weeks ago, offer came through this week. Oh yeah, mental.

It moves a lot more quicker now.

Well, I think someone went off and then there was like some sort of half term, like an extended one for one of the hiring manager's kids, right? And things just got delayed. The site's got some other issues, they're moving licenses about and stuff like that. Offer came through and I'm like, that's too late because you know how quickly contract moves. And Tiago, I was like, yeah, probably gone, but we want to offer him. And I'm like, you've got to move quicker. But you'd be surprised that my first ever 360 deal took a good few months to come in.

Did it?

And I was like, this isn't contract. I was like, what am I doing? But it was— yeah, it was a contract role, just took months because client had different terms that they wanted us to sign.

How long did it take to do your first 360 contract deal?

That was your own business? When I—

when you had your own, obviously in the first 6 months.

Oh, sorry. Yes, the first deal was a retainer, uh, 3 months in. 3 months in. Yeah, but that got from a lead because they wanted a consultant.

Then you was doing— that was perm?

That was, yeah, that was perm.

Smashing some perm deals.

Yeah, it's got to be done.

So how long did it take to do your first contract though?

4 months.

4 months? Yeah, fair.

Yeah, same client.

I was like, same client? That's interesting.

Same client. Um, basically sold them the retainer dream and I was like, look, what you want, you want it so soon, let's put a contractor in place because they can also help sort of like navigate and guide what you're looking for, because I think they were a bit unsure.

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Yeah, all I got from that is you want to work for CHR. Come in week one, just hammer the word leads into you. Yeah, no, so I think in the first instance it can be awkward because they don't know you, you don't know them. And that's where that whole fun fact thing comes into place. And I think when you first start out, you're gonna have to ask the difficult questions. But at the same time, when you're looking for leads, they can be anything. So they can be, you can speak to someone and they can say, oh, I know X person's leaving Y company, they're my best mate. Or my contract's not being extended here because they're looking for a perm, and then that's obviously a perm lead that you can pass over. A lead can be built from anything. And I think any good call you have, even if it is the first one, you will find out something. Whether that's finding out that, oh, I've just left this company, you then know that that company take contractors. So that puts you in an excellent position to contact that company, say, I know you take contractors, I'm a contract specialist, how do you take them? Do you take them directly? Do you take them through agencies? How can I position myself to be the next person you call when you need another contractor? Because I'm working with ex-candidate who's just left you, and I know that you think he's good because you wanted to extend him, but you couldn't because of XYZ. So I think anything can be used as part of like your business development. Yeah, because it's just so important to try and draw that information out but not do it in a like a direct way. Like, you've got to be not sly about it, but you've got to do it in a way that people want to open up to you.

So that's the, that's the difference.

Yeah.

How does it sound then at the start? Is it just like, I'm literally going, 'Hassina, where have you interviewed?' Oh no, I don't, I don't think I do that. Like, at the start, at the start though, like you said, it's a bit like direct and a bit like a bit awkward. Like, what, how is that, how these calls end up sounding? It's like, 'Oh, like, where are you interviewing?' Or like, 'Do you mind telling me where you've, uh, your friend has interviewed?' Or like, do you know what I mean?

I'll probably more go down, if I was new I'd probably go blah blah blah, small talk, and then I'd present them with, if I'm working a job, I'll present them with the job, and then if they say no, I'd say, okay, why not? And then they might say, 'cause I've got 2 other applications that I've made. So I'll be like, okay, so how does that compare to what I'm showing you? And they might say, okay, well, the one that I'm interviewing for is 10 miles down the road from where I live, and I can work from home. And then what you do is you then look at that candidate and you see, okay, where do they live, what's 10 miles away from them, map out on a map all the companies that fit that parameter, and then you'll call every single company that fits into that location and you'd say, do you need someone? I've got someone. So it'll be not so direct. You can be direct, it works for a lot of people.

It's conversational.

Yeah, like it's just not my style to be like brash about it and be like, where are you interviewing, hun? Give me your leads, because people aren't stupid. They know what you're doing. They know you're a recruiter.

Exactly. Um, I was preparing with, um, like what we did the other day, but with, uh, this guy, uh, David, on, um, uh, for a training session on mastering the cold call to like present your contract solution.

Yeah.

He, he's felt like in his career the most common objection that you run into is— you're just talking about like calling a business stuff, and I really like the way that you spoke about that— but he said the most common objection that he finds that contract recruiters run into is, we don't use freelancers. Oh, has that been your experience or not?

Not so much, but I think that's really market-specific.

Yeah, fair.

Our market is heavily reliant on contractors.

Really?

Yeah, because our contractors are either brought in to solve a problem or to build something new, or even just maybe like a little intermediary kind of person. But there's always that need. Some companies, you're right, they won't use a contractor But it's also then addressing the issue of, okay, well, how long will you look for a permanent person? Because if there's like a skills shortage or something, yeah, you're gonna have to consider something. And it's like, okay, well, if you're not going to consider a contractor, are you then going to promote from within? And then if they say yes, be like, okay, well, what about the gap that that person's then leaving? And then again, that's sort of pushing in your perm solution, because I think a lot of people sort of miss out on cross-selling as well. There's so many opportunities that come from that. And I think that's something that Chris and I do quite well. Like, we complement each other's work, and that's what we're building out in our teams. Like, cross-selling is so, so important.

Yeah, no, he, he sort of, he sort of shares exactly what you're talking about, where it's like you have to, you have to ask like the, the why of what and how, because then that, that can lead to the information that you just said, exactly what you just went through. Then it's like, also, like, how, how, how are you going to approach— like, you still need that need right now, so like, how are you going to approach dealing with that issue?

Yeah.

And then they say, well, we've got someone internally dealing with it at the moment, they're a bit stretched, whatever. It's like, what, like, like you just said, and then that can lead to different things, right? Yeah, that's interesting. Um, so when the 6 months hit then, is it just straight on WhatsApp like, it was team, I'm back, what are you saying? Like, did you just get straight back to it?

Yeah, it was a LinkedIn post of my laptop in mom and dad's garden. It was a sunny day. Yeah. And it was just the classic, hi everyone, um, we're good to connect with everyone again.

Yeah.

And then I put a little Calendly link booking time, and that just went wild. Comments, messages.

And what was the objective of these calls?

Just like, just literally, just literally catching up, just seeing how are you, how's the family, what have you been up to, um, yeah, what's new. More on the personal side, because to be honest, I wasn't expecting to get like loads of leads and stuff. Like, it was, it was summer, like not that much happens, and I just have that genuine like friendship with my contractors to want to know what they've been up to and what they've done in the last 6 months.

Why is that so important to you?

That's a horrible question. Why?

No, I'm just curious because like, I don't know how to answer it. I've had people on, I've had people on before where like they, they like really passionate about that. I'm just curious like why that's so important.

I think it's like we spoke about before, like that human connection. And I think the worst thing for me is letting someone down.

Okay.

Like, whether that's like my mom, dad, brother, sister, Chris, business, like anyone, like any of my friends or anything like that. I don't want to let people down. And I think going into a contract market, you're going to put your all in to make things happen for your candidates. And if you don't have that sort of desire to help them, because ultimately it's their liveliness that you're looking after, because if they're not on a contract, they're not working. They can't pay for their holidays and stuff like that. So I just feel like a bit, I don't know, just a bit of responsibility, I guess, in terms of I wanna help my friends out. Like, yeah, it's a hard question, but it's just kind of, I don't know, I guess it's how I am, like, with my friends, like, I'll put everything into my friendships because that's something that's important to me.

[Speaker] How do you keep on top of it all? That's what I also find baffling about contracts, like, 'cause at your peak HRS or now, whatever, like, how many runners did you have at one point?

I had 28.

How do you keep on top of that? Um, because you've got to stay in touch with these people, right? Yeah. Like, is it a weekly thing? Is it a bi-weekly thing? Is it just a WhatsApp message? What are you saying?

Um, when I was at HRS, it was more just telephone calls.

Yeah.

Um, just catching up with them every week just to see how it's going. But a lot of the time it wouldn't be about the contract, it would just be like, oh, what have you been up to this week? How was your weekend? How's the dog? Right, stuff like that. Um, now I find it difficult because I don't, I don't speak to my contract as much as I want to because I'm also running a business. And that's one thing that I find sort of like the hardest. It's like I can't dedicate that time to always speaking to them because I'm also like training people, doing business stuff. And I think that that's, yeah, that's probably the hardest part. Like you feel like you've, you're missing out, but at the same time, like You're missing out. Yeah, just on chats and like stuff like that.

FOMO on what the contractors are up to.

Yeah, literally. Um, like I spoke to my contractor yesterday. I hadn't spoken to him in like 2-3 weeks, and normally we speak like every week or every other week at least. I was like, what's going on? He said, oh, he's like, I'm just busy, I was just fluffing the Christmas tree. I was like, okay, you do you. But it's just like, it's hard to do everything.

Yeah. Um, so curious on how much— if you're a contract recruiter, how much of your week, if we're to do like percentage, how much of your week do you think should be spent like speaking to your existing contractors, do you think?

Depends how many you've got. Um, I think if you, if you're starting out your career and you've got 5 contractors, you should put in your diary to call them, I don't know, like every Tuesday afternoon or every Friday afternoon or something like that. Like, it should be there. They should know that they're going to get a call from you every week just to check in. But saying that, some contractors don't like it.

Really?

Yeah. I had one of my first placements over in Ireland um, called him when he started, then sort of checked in with him. And then he was like, why'd you keep calling me? He didn't say that. He was like, oh, I'm doing really well, but if I need something, I'll, I'll call you. And then I explained to him, he was like, oh, that's really nice. He's like, he's a bit old. He was like, I've never had this before. And I was like, oh, okay, that's, that's strange because I would always check in. He's like, no, I appreciate it, but like, don't worry. I think he thought that I was stressed about him because the place he was at was challenging.

Um, that is also a lesson, right? Because like, you— it is also important to know and understand how people like to communicated with.

Exactly, because not everyone wants to chat to me every week. I don't blame them. But at least you, you know, when you've got your check-in points, you know how to communicate. Some of them literally just like— like, I've got WhatsApp group chats with some of my contractors. Like, just random stuff gets sent in there.

Like, what's your WhatsApp group called?

It's called Secondary Squad.

Nice. I thought that might be an interesting name there, Secondary Squad.

The reason for that is because I placed the group of them at company before.

Yeah.

And they made their own WhatsApp group, right?

And you what, felt left out?

So yeah, I got left out because that happened once I'd left and I was in my restrictive covenants.

Yeah.

And then a couple of them stopped contracting, so then I made a new one with the contractors, right? Um, we're actually going ax throwing in a couple of weeks. I'm buzzing for it.

How much do you invest in contractor care? Obviously you're talking about now time.

Yeah.

Like, as a— now you're as a business, these are the sort of decisions and money that you can put into, right? Contractor care? Because that's also an important thing, right?

Yeah, oh, absolutely. Um, like at Christmas time, I'll take all my contractors out, um, just for like an activity or a meal or something like that. And then throughout the year, I'll try and see them like probably halfway through their contract or something like that. Depends on location. Yeah, I'm lucky that a few of mine are London-based at the moment. I'm going up to Nottingham on Monday for a contractor dinner. Um, but I think that's— that stuff's invaluable because you look at the margins, what they're making you. Like, if you're not being encouraged to go and meet your contractors and reinvesting some of that profit into those types of things, you have to.

No brainer.

It just shows that you actually care about them, because you'd be surprised, like, some people aren't allowed to go meet their contractors. Like, I've been lucky that I've been in businesses where it's always encouraged.

Not allowed?

Yeah, I know. I was interviewing someone, they're like, yeah, we don't, we don't do that. And I was like, well, if not, why not? Like, you've got to put that effort in to get the returns. Because when they finish that contract, who are they going to come to for the next contract? They're going to come to you. And if they hear about something, they'll let you know.

So what are some of the— like, we've spoken a lot already, you're just touching on it there, but we've spoken a lot around Hasina as the contract recruiter and, you know, how you've gone about your craft. What are some of the, the mindset shifts that you've had to have since having this business with Chris? Because it is a different mindset. It's like, it's a different responsibility. Like, yes, of course you have to generate revenue particularly with where you are on your business journey, like you and Chris have to be generating revenue or impacting revenue, like, yeah, how have you had to change your mindset towards being now you're a co-founder of a business?

Yeah, I think so, at HRS I had a period where I didn't have a manager and I think that really helped me because it made me look at, and I was coached quite well in terms of, it made me look at, you know, how much money am I risking to get like a return? So it made me look at margins and things like that and making sure that it's appropriate. Because now that I'm a business owner, um, like, my contractors are on big money. They're on like £1,000 a day plus. And when we started, I certainly couldn't afford to pay that to them every week. So we had like a funding partner who did that for us. Um, now we use Raise. I don't know if you know them.

No.

But they're sort of another funding partner, and what they do is they mirror what we want really well. Like absolutely fantastic. And stuff like that, like making those decisions, because now I've got to factor in that I've got to pay like a charge to them. So the way I think of it is, okay, so I've got to pay that off the back of every invoice that's generated, but I see that as like a service charge. So like instead of paying someone to come in, write the contract, see the timesheets, I, I consider it like that. And you've also got to think about every single decision. So if you're looking at a new software or you know, something for the staff or something like that, you've got to think, okay, so what will, what will this cost and what will the returns be? Because ultimately you're a business and you've got to survive. And it's having that sort of like entrepreneurial mindset where you've got to think, what's the impact of, you know, getting this in or something like that?

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As you can see, Sourcewell is a great tool for driving better engagement, more meetings, and higher revenue. If you're looking for a competitive edge in 2024, then Sourcewell could be for you. You can book a demo with Sourcewell and mention the Recruitment Mentors podcast to enjoy an extra 50 phone and 50 email credits per user. And this exclusive offer for this community is going to save you circa £1,500 or more, and it's only going to be available until March 31st. So click the link in the show notes, or you can go directly to sourcelife.com/demo. So if you're listening to this and you're— you may have aspirations to have your own business, like, what I take from that is like really try and be intentional about being in the rooms and conversations that you experience by accident, it seems, where you didn't have a manager for a bit and then you got exposed to these things. That's actually ended up being really helpful because Yeah, you're actually learning to understand the commercials and how HRS, um, you know, make their money or how it's all calculated rather than just when you're an employee, you just care about the month, the number that you've got on the board, and like when you're getting paid, right? You're not really thinking about— yeah, those sorts of things.

Yeah, you've got to think about what's the impact. Like, am I risking £1,000 a day to only get like £100 back? That's not going to be worth it because if your client goes bust and they don't pay you, then now what? And you've got to think about it like logically. You've got to think what's going to happen if someone doesn't pay. Like, you've always got to think worst case, because if you're thinking about like— obviously don't be negative all the time— but if you're thinking about the worst case, like what could happen, then it allows you to sort of like future-proof yourself.

How have you and like Chris being your manager, or you being employees, is different to being co-founders?

So Chris was my permanent counterpart —so we did the same markets. Yeah, so we worked quite closely together then. And now in terms of like the business, what he tends to do is more sort of like the operational side of things. So like the contracts, payrolls, things like that. And then I'm probably more sort of like sales director. So I do like the training and all that sort of things for the staff.

Was that quite natural for you to end up both doing that or did you like have an intentional conversation about these are the things that I'm gonna really focus on or?

Well, Chris has got a lot more experience than I do. He's probably gonna listen to this and think I'm calling him old, which I probably am. But yeah, he's got a bit more experience than I do, so when it comes down to sort of things like hiring and things like that, it was just natural that he took the lead on that. And I think that he's more, he probably was more commercially aware 'cause he was a manager at our old place and things like that. But it was just natural in terms of we looked at what do you enjoy, what do I enjoy, 'cause we're also best friends, we get along so well and you can just have those upfront conversations of, you're not gonna agree on everything. I'll be like, Chris, well, why? And he'll obviously have to explain it but you're not gonna be in complete synergy all the time but it's about how you deal with those things that happen. If you don't agree on something, how are you gonna solve it? But I think I wouldn't have been able to do this without having Chris. Like I wouldn't have been able to set up alone. He's literally been like my backbone or right arm, whatever the saying is.

So friendship's still strong?

Yeah, best friends. Love that.

Yeah, that's awesome. I think, you know, I set up my business on my own and like there is, is just completely like different challenges like setting up with someone else. Again, that can come with challenges, right? You can butt heads and whatever. But I do think, I'm sure you experience this like now, but like when you, despite how close you are of your like friends or your family, they don't truly truly know like how you're feeling or what you're going through, whereas Chris, he is in the same shoes as you. Yeah, absolutely. Like he can truly relate and understand because you're both facing the challenges head on, whereas when you're telling your mum about what you do and why you might be a bit stressed and what the challenges are, she might make you feel really listened, but you know she truly, truly doesn't understand.

Yeah, she'll be like, it's all right, you'll be fine. And it's like, well, it's not fine. But no, I think they say it's lonely at the top, but with a co-founder, you're not going to be lonely 'cause like you say, he's walking the same path. And it's like, especially at the start when we weren't billing what we were used to, like we weren't earning what we used to, that's difficult. 'Cause you're used to a certain lifestyle and then all of a sudden that's stripped away. You've got to, yeah, it's so difficult. 'Cause also, even with friends, I love my friends, but sometimes some of them are like, oh, but you can just take a day off 'cause it's your own business. Oh, you can go in whenever you want. But it's like, when it's your own business, that's when you put in even more work and even more time like, you— like, it's your child. Like, yeah, my best friend's just had a kid. I'm like, that's literally how I feel about my business. Like, I would do anything for it.

Yeah, no, that's awesome. Love that. What have, um— so you mentioned there, what have been some of the, the challenges then on this journey so far that you least expected?

I think the hiring piece, because I wasn't—

it's always harder than people think.

Yeah, like, I was in interviews previously at my old company, HRS, but I was never in charge of like bringing the people And so we've probably spoken to like well over 100 people in terms of interviewing. Like we started hiring over a year ago now, but the process was a lot longer than we thought because we've got such a specific vision and what we want and our values are like important to us. Not everyone says that, but we're gonna hire people who mirror what our vision is and it's difficult to find people who buy into that because like I've said it to Chris, I'm like, no one will care as much about this business as we do. And we can't expect that from anyone because it's not theirs, they've not been there from the start. What you can do is get people who want to align with you and have that impact and I think it's also sort of making sure that you're hiring the right people in because that's something that if, especially when you're so small, if someone's not aligned to what you're doing, then that's gonna have a huge impact on the team.

Yeah, I mean, the first person I hired, I had to let go. Oh. It's hard. RIP. RIP. But it's, I've had to let 2 people go so far on my journey but It is true, particularly obviously you're 5 people, right? So I'm 4 including me. When I think what I love what you just said there, because not sometimes even though the things that you just said around like we can't expect them to care about the business as much as we care about it. Yeah, that's so the right thing. But you can often feel like when you're a small business, like why won't they just like just put in just a bit more effort or whatever, but you can't It's like you said, you can't— it's not, it's not their business, right? But sometimes you can have those expectations. But when it is, when you are a small size, you can really pick up on quickly when someone's like not right, or that they're— it's a net negative of like what they're doing to like the energy and, and the group. Yeah, exactly. And you got, you got to take action on that.

Yeah, I learned that from the first one.

It went on for too long. Yeah. And then the, the second person It was the people interview different to when you hire them. But like, you've got to put— I feel like all costs, particularly at the early stage, you've got to protect your culture at all costs. Yeah, exactly. You just have to. It's the right thing.

Because also, it's not just that. It's like you're paying for them to be with you, and if they're not aligning to what you want— so we've had two people that haven't worked out. First one was honestly a great guy, but he was quite young, and then he realized sales isn't for him, which is fine. And then the second one was someone who's experienced, but if they kind of aren't aligned to what you want and doing things how you want them, like without sounding spoiled, but it's my business. Like, we need—

no, that's why you started it, like, and you've got to protect that.

That's— yeah, because it's a cost to me. Like, I'm paying for you to be here, but then also at the same time, you know, you give it time, you let it— you hope it works because you want it to. And I think it's also like a few other co-founders I know, they say that's a pride thing. They're like, when you've got staff, you sometimes don't want to let them go because it's like you feel like you failed, but it's actually not that. Like, the bigger failure will be keeping them for way too long.

You've got to take the emotion out of it. That was the first one for me. Like, it's just, you got a— particularly when you're early on and it's like the first couple of hires, you, you want them to work out, don't you?

Yeah, exactly. Like, we're really lucky. Like, the team that we've got right now was so, so good. We've got someone else who's joining in February and we're buzzing for that because that person aligns with exactly what we want. Did you do—

did you change? So one of the things that I did was I really— I change the interview process quite a bit when I learned from the second one. So you're saying that you've had to be really, you know, like, have clarity on that they align with the things that you care about. Have you done anything in the interview process or changed it to really uncover if they actually align with what you're looking for?

I think we generally— so the interview process will be like, whoever finds them, Chris or I, will do like an initial phone call. Then if that goes well, Teams call, and then if that goes well, in person. And I think that speaking to us both separately, like if I interview someone and I like them, then they go to the next stage with Chris and Chris isn't sure, we probably won't pursue it. Because if you're not 100% invested in the interview, then what are you doing? If they've not impressed you then, then why would we pursue it? And I think each one of the interviews that we've had have got better and better. [Speaker] Nice. [Speaker] In terms of the caliber. So we have such a high standard now because of the people that we've got in the business and what we expect from the interviews. Like a couple of the guys that we've got now, they were so relaxed in that interview. We were like, these guys are like, they're just so like normal, which is hard to find. Like speaking to hundreds of people who want to do recruitment, um, how many people that want to do recruitment?

Yeah, I know, crazy.

Don't let your TikTok comment section see that. Um, but I had one guy who was like, I want to do pharmaceutical recruitment. Really? I was like, okay, why? Tell— I said, tell me one thing that you've read in the news that sort of interest you about the pharmaceutical industry? And he literally said, I don't know. I was like, you literally could have said COVID-19 and I would have thought that's better.

We would have carried it on.

Yeah, like anything. Like, what's wrong with you? Like, red flag. Yeah, literally. Yeah. Um, so it's kind of just like, yeah, making sure that— I don't know, it's, it's very— interviews that I do are very conversational. Yeah, fair.

I do think it's worth, like, if you're very clear on what those things are, you, you definitely want to think about you want some like specific questions in there that you feel are nice. Because one of the things that I added, which I couldn't believe I didn't do before, but when I was hiring for the sales role, the first person I hired, it was very like conversational on these things. But then when I learned from that the second time around, I got some advice on the interview process. And yeah, in as part of the interview process, what they had to do was some of the like tasks that they were going to have to do in their role. So I actually got an opportunity to see how they would approach writing an email, how they would— we did like a role play to start the interview. Oh wow, because what, like, when this person started, I was like, oh my God, they're like so off. Or like, and the, the second time round, we had a phone call, did all the conversational stuff, but then I just did a task in between the face-to-face where it was, I want you to— the— this is what our ideal customer profile looks like. I want you to find 5 companies that you feel fit that, and I want you to identify one person in one of those companies, and I want you to write an email that you think would, um, you know, uh, get them curious about our solution, which I told them about. Yeah. And then in the interview, we then did a role play, which was, right, I'm now going to the person you emailed. Like, let's play out how you'd approach that call. Yeah. Um, and it was unreal to like see how they would approach it before we've even like hired them.

No, so the best interview I ever had, um, it was a guy who's experienced in recruitment to your desk. Um, Chris and I were on Teams with him, and then he says contract recruitment's easy. Oh, and I just looked at him, I was like, you what? What? And he was like, yeah, like I gave him the chance to think about what he'd said and see if he'd like try and sort of like explain it. And he was like, yeah, contract recruitment's easy. And I was like, okay, well let's look at your billings. Over the last 24 months you've done 2 contract deals. If contract recruitment is so easy, then why have you not done more than 2? And he's like, oh, it's different for me. And I was like, yeah, of course it is. Like, what are you talking about? Like, don't, don't talk to someone who's built their contract career in— that is a wild statement to say. Literally, I was like, honestly, it's a no from me.

Yeah, fair. So talk to us about what, what are you excited about then? So we're— you've, you know, 2 years in, you're, you're 2 years into the journey. Like, talk to us a bit about what you're excited about going into year 3.

Yes, I think year 3 for us really will be growth. So we'll be 6 in February. I think if we end, if this time next year we're on 10, I'll be happy. And I think our US division's where we're going to channel a lot of efforts next year. US is something that Chris has always been passionate about, and we've also got, so our first employee, she's from United States, and she's starting to build out that sort of division for us. What, contract or perm?

Perm. Nice. You gonna think about doing contract there or?

Potentially. I think it depends very much on So US contract is completely different with different laws and things like that.

So it can differ per state, can't it? Yeah, exactly.

And I think once my contract team is the best in the UK, then we'll look at what geography we want to go to next. But I'm thinking Europe mainly because I've got connections out there already. Time difference isn't as bad. Not so much of a language barrier because most of them, most of the clients speak English anyway. Um, but yeah, our US division on the perm side is what will probably develop next year. Um, exciting. So yeah, I'm buzzing for that party in the USA.

Let's go. I think, yeah, look, kudos to you. I think obviously, you know, think about it, let's not forget that you, you did send that message at 3 AM saying I'm not sure I could do it, and you're now— because I'm sure it's easy to forget that, that you felt like that, right? Yeah, you know, 2 years in, like, you know, whenever we speak you seem super energetic. I'm sure you're enjoying it most of the time. It's hard, but you're in it right now. You're, you're building your business and That's, that's the really great thing about our industry. Like, you can— you work hard, you can apply your skills, you can learn some of the things that you're learning along the way. Yeah, but you know, you're building a business.

Yeah, I love it.

Um, well, look, thank you so much for coming on the pod.

Thank you for having me.