What 500+ Recruitment Interviews Actually Taught Me (And What's Coming Next)

Before we dive into today's conversation, I want to quickly shine a light on the 3 partners who are behind the mission of the podcast this year. First up, we have Atlas. This isn't just another CRM with AI added on as an afterthought. Atlas 2.0 is the first platform in our space built with AI from the ground up and at its core. Next up, we have our longtime partner Sourcewell. You may know them as a world-class outbound sequencing tool, but they fully evolved into a multi-modular system. And the best part is you can plug and play their tools, from the AI note-taker to the inbox agent, all without ripping out your entire tech stack. And finally, Raise. They remain the most powerful way to fund and run your contract book If you want to unlock cash flow and scale your agency with total confidence, you have to check them out. So if you go to the link in the description below, you're going to be able to get access to exclusive offers to all three of our partners this year. Let's get into this week's episode. This month is 8 years of the Recruitment Mentors podcast. So I'm gonna do a solo episode. I'm gonna talk about the consistent lessons and insights that I've seen in those 8 years. I've now interviewed well over 500 recruiters or recruitment leaders, which is wild to think, having started this podcast in my bedroom when I worked in recruitment. With a really simple idea, which was having worked for a really small recruitment business outside of London— there's only 8 people in that office— I really couldn't get my head around the fact that I was limited to the 7 people around me that I could learn from, knowing that there were thousands and thousands of recruiters out there that had gotten to where I wanted to get to or had been what I was going through, I didn't understand why that knowledge, like, wasn't accessible. So I'm definitely someone that is willing to take action on ideas, and I thought if I interview other recruiters, I can learn from them because I'm limited to the knowledge within my four walls, and there's got to be at least one other person out there in the recruitment industry like me who would love to learn from other people, to really try and understand how they've succeeded, what do they do differently, what do they learn the hard way. And it turns out there are plenty other people out there like me, thousands of you, because you listen to this show. And it's continued to grow, and the core mission of why I started it has remained the same. I think now, for those of you that are in the recruitment industry, safe to say that there's so much more choice now and there's so much more content available, which is absolutely awesome. I think there's never been a sort of more accessible time for people who are in recruitment to get their hands on content and understand what's possible in different markets and all of that. I think it's brilliant. But that means for me and for all of you, I need to be really clear on what is it that I want my show and what we do here at the Recruitment Mentors Podcast to be known for, and what do we want to stay true to. And for those of you that have listened for a long time or over the last 12, 24 months, what should have come through hopefully is that I want this show to be the most practical. I want you to get to the end of our episodes and hopefully every time, but most of the time, walk away with at least one strategy, one tactic, one belief that maybe has been challenged, or at least one thing that you can consider using, taking into your recruitment business, your recruitment desk. So what I'm going to continue to do is remain focused on making this the most practical recruitment podcast in the world. That is my goal with this, and for all of you listening, you're part of that journey. So what's come up time and time again are a lot of the same things on this 8-year journey so far. And I know that can be a bit frustrating because I know we always want the new thing. What's the best new thing? What's the silver bullet? But I don't think there's never been a noisier time than now in the recruitment industry. Like, we are absolutely inundated with tools, with AI that's going to save us time, with part of what we're doing here, like so much content available that might make you think, hang on a minute, am I in the wrong market? Should I be doing the US? Is the UK worth it? All of that, it's very noisy. So I think what's happening for a lot of people is they're having to be really clear on what they want to double down on, what they want to focus on. And it comes back to having really great world-class basics and being clear on what your non-negotiables are, because there are a lot of companies out there right now that you would deem to be very successful, and I actually do think a lot of those companies won't have the largest tech stacks you'll definitely find companies that are really successful that have the largest tech stacks. But a lot of the conversations I'm having, definitely over the last 6-12 months, is that because there is so much noise, what these really great recruitment companies are doing are just being really ruthless with their non-negotiables and basics. And a lot of that doesn't involve getting lost in the AI noise or if they are adding AI and tech, they're very clear on what it's helping the team with versus trying to find tools and tech and AI that they're hoping will solve their problems. So I think that is the first thing. It is, it is very noisy right now, which is why the stuff that I'm probably going to share here you've heard before. So maybe it can act as, as a really good reminder. But I definitely think over the, the years what's always remained true and is never more truer than it is now is this word that gets used a lot and is overused in our industry, which is relationships. I think technology and AI is really eating up that recruitment market where it's extremely transactional. And the customer doesn't really care who they're dealing with, they just want the end result, aka good CVs, qualified people, people that can do the job for organizations. I think that, I think that's going to continue. It is going to be really interesting how that plays out. I mean, you've got recruitment platforms like Paraform, they've recently raised a lot of money where ultimately recruiters are placing candidates but having no influence at all, no dealings with clients, ultimately just cutting out that, that part of it and making it very customer-centric. And there's a lot of platforms now where it's like a marketplace. They've been around for a long time, but I think there's a lot more successful examples now of marketplaces where ultimately people are making it as— like, the experience is about the, the customer, and that customer could be hiring managers, organizations, as well as actually people looking for jobs. And then you've got different platforms where they're literally trying to cut out recruiters and completely using AI. They've got AI speaking to candidates all the time. They've then got AI matching up candidates to job opportunities because they're out there speaking to clients and hiring managers all the time. And because of that as well, that's why margins can be really squeezed. So I know these words are overused, but I do really think that has continued to happen and will continue to happen, which is why the relationships part and really positioning yourself as a partner and solving more problems for your clients beyond I can get you CVs and I can get you people for your jobs really quickly. I do think it's got to be more than that, even if at the core of it is that it's got to be positioned as more, or you're working towards doing more than that. So that does just keep coming back, and I think that is going to be really important. I do think that the industry is going to go through some really interesting times over the next 12-24 months, but relationships is definitely going to sort of underpin recruitment companies who continue to do well, or recruitment companies that really struggle. And to sort of build on that, some of my thinking for this year from all of the conversations that I'm having and, and some of the bets that I would probably make are I really think the best companies and the best teams will, for a lot of them, part of their core plan and strategy will have to be like being at the center of their market. And you've seen this more and more now. So organizations, teams, recruiters who are at the center of their market and they are bringing people together in their industry together. So that could be through podcasts, it could be through hosting roundtables, putting on events, sponsoring events. This stuff's always happened. But I think if we're to look at some of the most successful companies, there's going to be more and more recruitment companies in the future where they have that as a core part of their strategy, versus maybe 3, 5 years ago that wouldn't be as, as common. I know events and everything has always happened, but I think it's almost gonna become a really important part of how you go to market and how you build trust, which is why, again, that's part of this relationships piece, having more ways to connect with your customer, understand what their challenges are, what their issues are, understanding their world. And that also feeds into really having deep market expertise. Again, all stuff that we know, but I think it's going to become absolutely fundamental, and you can't half-ass that stuff anymore if you really want to win and you want to be the best. So that's why attending to conferences, going out, meeting people, connecting people, having compelling reasons to be in the same room as the people in your ecosystem, in your world, is going to become so important. It's already important, but I think is going to continue to, to be really important. So that's something that I think people should really think about. And I do think the real big positive of that is that it will make your recruitment job even more enjoyable if you're seen as an industry peer versus an industry supplier. I do think that that will, that will just make the job more fun. Like how much you'll learn, the really cool people that you meet, the opportunity to connect with, uh, like people of one another, and just having different ways to add value to people. It's really something that I think loads of people are already taking action on, but something that you really want to think about. And again, that really accelerates or at least gives you more opportunities to, to build relationships with people. Now, on the other side, you will have plenty of companies that don't really care about that stuff and will do an absolute world-class excellent job on delivery, on all of that, and still make a lot of money and make an impact and get great people for organizations. I do just think there's, there's a big plus and positive to just making it even more fun because the job's hard. So I think I'd way rather be part of a team, an organization where they really see themselves as an industry peer. And what are we doing to do that? What are we doing to really give as much to our industry and not just take? I think that is something that is going to continue to play out this year over the 12, 24 months. And I think that's the stuff that would be really hard for AI and technology to eat away at is my bet, is what I think. The other part that has definitely, definitely consistently rung true for me is I would say the best high-performing recruitment teams, recruitment organizations, what they have really committed to is being a world-class sales organization. Won't be the case of every great recruitment business, but I'd be fairly confident that the best performing recruitment companies and teams right now, if you were to walk on the office floor, that there'd be a real buzz about it. There'd be— it'd be a sales culture. That obviously may not transcend every market, but I think I've seen it enough times where when we had that real boom period after COVID, there was just so many people that never really had to go out there, win business, hunt for business, build their own pipeline. And that's just since then just consistently been the biggest skill gap that I've seen across recruitment teams, or what recruitment leaders really struggle for their teams, or there's just real lack of consistency and confidence around that part of the job. So that's why I think the best companies have really made sure that they have the best salespeople. They're always working towards helping their staff and team become excellent, world-class salespeople. So I do really think that's also what you have to commit to if you want to be great, because I really see a world— and for some companies this might already be the case— but why that's so important is because I think AI and technology, and I've mentioned that a lot already, but it's just, it's just where we're at. It's just the landscape. I think the Aon technology piece will ultimately eat up so much of the admin, the tasks, that ultimately what will be left will be you having conversations and meetings and getting in front of people, which is why the sales aspect is crucial. Because I do imagine a world where Hishem the recruiter goes to his recruitment desk, and you might have had an AI agent doing some stuff while she was sleeping, maybe doing some data scraping, maybe doing some market mapping, uh, maybe finding out who raised investment or who announced investment over the— while she was asleep, or found new companies that have posted live jobs recently while she was asleep. And you go to your desk and I basically get notifications on my dashboard, on my CRM, on my dashboard, where it just says, Hishem, these companies have posted this, you need to call them today. Or, Hishem, this new senior hire has just started in this organization, you need to prospect them this week. I think all of that data and all of those aspects are going to be done for us, and AI and technology is going to do a lot of that heavy lifting. So what's going to be left? Well, if a lot of that stuff is taken up, then if I've got that information and there's going to be more and more recruiters that has that, who have that data available on who to call, like why they should call them, all of that, then when you make that call or when you send that email or when you send that LinkedIn DM or voice note, when it lands in their inbox or when they pick up the phone, what have you done prior to that to build trust with those people so they maybe recognize you, or they recognize the company name, or they may have heard already good things about them, um, about you. So what's happened before then? And then most importantly, how good are you when you do get on the phone, or how good are you at writing your, your content so that you can convert that data into actual good quality conversations that then convert into meetings and getting in front of people, and then the steps after that. So that's why I think this sales piece, and ultimately what I'd probably call commercial skills, are going to be a lot of what's left. So that sort of people element, really, I think that is going to be what is left. So that is what you have to be really committed to becoming world-class at and keep getting better at, because all of the other aspects of the job around it are just going to keep being made easier. So that's why I think the companies that would really back themselves to go to market, get on the phone to people, convert calls into meetings, convert meetings into signed terms pitch well are going to continue to win and have been winning. Then I've got diversification. This is definitely a, like, recruitment company observation consistently. I think this has helped a lot of companies really excel their growth. Now, that diversification can come in a lot of different ways. It can come in the fundamental way of doing permanent recruitment and doing contract recruitment. It could look like different products that you have— contingent, typical contingency, contingency, contingency, permanent recruitment, to exclusive, to retained, to mini RPOs, to embedded talent solutions. It could be diversification in, in location where you do business. Do you do business in UK, in London, or UK-wide? Or do you do it in Europe and UK? Or do you do it in Europe, UK, and US? Or do you do it in US, Australia? You get the point. So I think it is really important from a recruitment leader standpoint that you've got an intentional plan about diversifying your revenue. I think that can really future-proof your recruitment business against loads of stuff that can happen, that will continue to happen, that is entirely out of our control. Like with all of this stuff that's going on right now, like there's just so, there's just so much stuff that will continue to happen in our future that is out of our control. And if we are very— if we've got all our eggs in one basket, whether that be the ways that we work with our customers, whether that be where we do business whatever markets, I think it's gonna be hard to not have some real maybe tough moments, or some moments where things feel really fragile and you feel vulnerable in your business. So having that real plan on how am I gonna diversify the revenue in my business is something that I think is really important, and I think the best companies have done and are doing. I think all of that to say, I've got here how to think about next year. I've already ended up talking about that. So I honestly still believe now, and, and it's sort of what I believe and felt when I started in this industry, recruitment is one of the best careers out there if you really want it. There's nothing stopping you. I think that is what I absolutely loved about discovering sales as a career. I had no idea what I wanted to do when I was growing up, and when I first got a commission-only sales job selling parkour tickets in Magaluf, I was terrible at that. And then I got good at it, and then it made me realize, oh, like, I have some skills here that could make maybe mean that I could build a bit of a career out this. Or like, I sort of had a clarity for once on where I could apply my skills and what I had at that time in my life to bring to the table. And that's what really drew me to recruitment, to keep building on that, that sales capability. Because I went from commission-only to call center sales to then, as we all know, our products becoming people, which is really challenging. It is one of the only industries out there where your product can literally, on the day that they're starting their new job, decide that they, they don't want to. That can literally change their mind. It's one of the best things about our industry and one of the most hardest things, but I think nonetheless it is an absolutely brilliant industry to be part of, and I think that will continue to be the case. Especially for those of you that are lucky enough to work in an organization where part of their strategy is to be an industry peer. Like, recruiters are so well positioned to be facilitators, to bring people together in their ecosystem, in their market. And I think more and more recruiters are leaning into that, and you should. Like, you are amazingly positioned to do that. So I only see— and I've said this a few times now— but the only limitation I see now from all the conversations I've had are the markets you operate in. There isn't really anything else holding you back besides yourself. So hopefully that's what this podcast can also share some insight on for all of you, is that we really get a proper look into what's possible in different businesses and different markets and different organizations. Whereas when I started this podcast, there that was very limited. I worked the insurance Kent market. That would be one of the only things that I wish I experienced in my recruitment career was being part of a way different market. Like, a lot of these markets are just as hard and you can put just as much effort in, but in terms of what you can achieve in that market, in that vertical, it absolutely can be limited depending on how that is structured. And what's going on in that market and what's possible. So if you are listening to this right now, then be excited for this industry. Like, we have a huge impact on the global economy. I don't think hiring is gonna— despite all the tools and everything, I don't think hiring is going to come easier. We solve real genuine problems, and we can also give a lot to our— the industries that we work with. And we can provide a lot of value, and we can have a lot of fun along the way. So many great people in the recruitment industry. I know there's always going to be people that we don't like or tarnish the name or whatever. It all comes with that, right? But this is a great industry to be part of, and I'm really excited to continue to do my part to try and provide as much value as possible to all of you by having transparent conversations, really getting into the detail on how people succeed, what's going on in the most successful businesses. And you should be excited too, despite the challenges, the noise. I think if you're in the right organization, you have the right strategy, you have the right focus, you will do extremely well and have a lot of fun and make a lot of really great impact. Along the way, and the work that you do is really meaningful. Cliché, but it's true. Generally have the opportunity to change people's lives as well as have a huge impact on organizations' success because of the people that you can get into those organizations and the advice that you can give them and everything else. So for everyone that's listened along the way, I appreciate you. I'm going to keep pushing, I'm going to keep improving is my goal. We've got 4 live podcast events this year. We've done a ton now from not just UK that we've done now, we've taken this to Australia, we've taken it to the States. Definitely plan to do more of that on my journey. But hopefully I can see some of you at the live events this year. We've got London announced, we've got Leeds coming, and then we'll look to bring it back to Manchester again and bring it back to Bristol is going to be the other location. So thank you so much for being part of this journey. It means a lot. I feel really privileged with the position that I'm in and the conversations that I get to have. But what keeps me going genuinely is, one, seeing the messages and, and how this podcast helps people. But two, there are so many great people and organizations in our industry, and I wanna— there's still so many stories that we haven't captured on, on this podcast yet. And I think this is one of the best industries out there, and we should be super proud of all of the work that we do, and you should be too. So thank you for all the support. 8 years of the Recruitment Mentors podcast, which is absolutely nuts, but I'm excited for the next 10. Bring it on.