What Building 66 Recruitment Brands from Scratch Taught Me with Blake Thompson

Blake, welcome back to the pod.

Thanks for having me, it's good to be back.

Great to meet you in person. Just saying that I had you on the pod a little while back ago when— pretty early on, on the X Recruiter journey. Since then, now you've launched 66 brands of X Recruiter. That's pretty cool. One in the US, one in New Zealand. Sure, there's been a few in there that haven't quite worked out as well, so there's going to be even more experience in there that you've had, but I think you're now in this really unique position to offer some really great insights for people because you'll be closer to this than me, but I think there's definitely a sort of message out there or a perspective that more and more people are considering or looking at that path of starting their own recruitment agency than maybe 10 or so years ago. There's so many tools that are available at your fingertips now. There's still pretty much no barrier to start a recruitment business, but as, as you all know, doesn't necessarily mean it makes it any easier to be a successful recruitment entrepreneur. But our goal here is really to try and have you share with us, like, what does it actually take? What have you seen consistently play out when it comes to people that you guys have supported and have really gone on to kill it as recruitment entrepreneurs? What you've really had to learn the hard way on, like, when the people— when are actually people ready to launch recruitment business, and just a whole host of other things, is, is the goal here. But you are, you are in such a unique position now, which is why I always enjoy, uh, sitting down and speaking to people like you. Because like I said, there'll be more than 66 brands, but they'll— you're in these conversations all the time, so you really are seeing this front and center on this sort of entrepreneurial journey that recruiters, uh, look to go on. Would you first agree with that? I guess you might be a bit biased, but like, do you feel like that rhetoric of like more— there's more people than ever that are considering setting up on their own, going on their recruitment, going on their own journey— do you think that there's more of that now compared to when you started your first recruitment business?

Yeah, definitely. I think what's happening especially over the last few years. And maybe, yeah, you're right, I'm biased. I've got a bit of a tunnel vision from the position that I'm in. But when I first started my recruitment agency 7 and a half years ago, um, it— I didn't know of that many people starting their own recruitment agency. Obviously it happened, but it wasn't like visible, front of mind, wasn't in the back of everyone's mind. But now it's like a new recruitment agency starting every 3 days, it feels like. And it, it almost feels like it's the obvious next step of a recruiter, where 7 years ago it probably wasn't an obvious next step as far as I'm aware. But I was pretty new in the industry, so, you know, I've got probably a tainted view on things from when I first started. However, every recruiter I speak to, it's just the obvious next step. It's not It's not, are they going to do it? It's just, when's the right time to do it?

I think it's probably definitely become just like a real consideration and option for people, hasn't it? Whereas maybe before it wasn't like a serious option. But for the most part, most people will probably consider it at some point, won't they? Like, actually, should I start my own recruitment business, or should I stay at this firm, should I join another firm? I think it really has just become a serious option for most people, probably, compared to maybe— it probably, it probably just did feel over a decade ago not out of reach, but I don't know, there maybe there's just not as much clarity and content out there now as like what it actually takes to start a recruitment business than there is now. But what I'd— where I'd love to start with this is like, what— because there's never like— there's not going to be the sort of perfect persona, but I'm definitely curious to sort of hear from you, from what you've seen, what you feel like makes a recruiter ready or a great person to go on an entrepreneurial journey. Because you would have met many, and I have, where people get a year's experience and they're just naive and they start something and it's been successful. But I'm definitely curious to hear your take because you would— you really probably have to have this dialed now, or you would have thought a lot about it. But what, what makes, like, someone ready to maybe take that entrepreneurial lead? Would it be experience? Would it be the type of experience they've had working in recruitment? Like, let's just start there. I'm very interested to hear your take on this.

Yeah, I guess if we talk about the experience point first, from an experience standpoint For context, I started my recruitment agency with 14 months experience. I'm not like— you wouldn't copy me because I was just super fortunate, lucky, and grateful to have a really good support system around me that made it work. But from an experience standpoint, when I see someone that has worked in a specific industry for 3 or 4 years consistently, they've kind of felt somewhat of the peaks and troughs of what that industry provides, then that gives me more comfort and a higher probability of success. Sometimes I question if someone's been in recruitment for 5 years and they've done 4 different recruitment roles across 4 different businesses in different industries, in perm, in contract, blue collar, white collar, and they haven't actually like sunk their teeth into something yet. There's something that Matt Cossens, our Chief Growth Officer, says. He says, do you have 5 years experience or have you got 1 year's experience 5 times? And so generally when you're looking at someone, you want to figure out, have they just been rinse and repeating the first 12 months of their recruitment career over and over and over again, or have they shown consistent growth since they've started to where they're at now, and is this a responsible next step? So from an experience standpoint, I would say that is probably a big green tick. From a personality standpoint though, um, I find if we're just talking probabilities, everyone can talk, you know, they can come back and go, oh, well, my mate's this.

And yeah, there'll always be—

there's always going to be outliers. But from a probability standpoint, the most successful recruitment, uh, founders that I know that have started in the last 3 or 4 years that have done exceptionally well, they are cautiously optimistic. Humble is probably not, not the right word, but then perhaps self-aware that there's challenges that they're going to face, that they're not going to know how to overcome them. But they know that if they reach out to someone, someone will help them solve their problems. So I'll give you an example. Like, we've had people at XRecruiter, you know, want to start with us, not want to start with us for a variety of different reasons. And the ones that haven't worked out are the ones that come in that are just so sure of their success and their ability. They're confident through the roof, and what What happens is when they face challenges, it rattles them so hard because they were just so fixed on thinking that they've got this in the bag that they go into this spiral doom loop of bad decisions and they start second-guessing themselves. They start like having problems at home because everything's feeling, they're feeling the pressure. Whereas we get guns that are billing $2 million a year and they're coming to you for advice and I've never billed $2 million a year, so they're a better recruiter than me. And they're coming with advice, with, questions on advice, like, how would I do this? How would I do that? And they're naturally inquisitive and self-aware that they know that they need to lean on people. Whereas if you think you're the best, you're not going to lean on people, you're not going to try and network and solve problems collaboratively because you're going to assume that you need to know all the answers. So it'll stop you from reaching out to other people and potentially cause you more pain than what it's worth. So that's probably from a personality standpoint. You need to have your house in order at home as well, I believe. I mean, we've helped people start recruitment agencies in a variety of different situations in their life, you know, loved ones passing, divorces, like a lot of different, different moments that probably isn't the best time to start a recruitment agency. Um, but I'm a firm believer that you want to have your house in order, so I don't want to I'm not gonna like start preaching like Jordan Peterson or anything, but you know, you've gotta have a good relationship at home. If your partner's not backing you 100%, then it's gonna be really, really tough to put in those late nights, to put in that effort, to see your bank balance go down for the first few months. There's gonna be pressure at home. So you just need your home life to be sensible, calm, normal, not in any period of, you know, chaos, then you can usually— you're good to go.

That's definitely overlooked. Like, I always, I always bring that up now, particularly with— it still applies when you're running a business with multiple people in, but if you're starting on your own or you're a small business owner, like, so much of how that business is doing is, is wrapped up on like you as a person. So like, yeah, I'm just a huge believer of like, if you're performing outside of what you're going to perform inside work And you would have met many people, and so have I, where they are renovating a house, they've got a baby on the way, and then they launch a recruitment business. Like, that definitely happens all the time. I think more so because they're like, shit, when— there's never going to be a better time. Like, I'm only going to get more responsibility. But I think that is something I'm really glad that you brought that up because I just think it is overlooked. And I think if you want to— again, talking about probabilities— if you really want to go on that entrepreneurial journey and have the best chance of being successful that's something that you should consider. Uh, what does my personal life look like? Have I got good habits? All those other bits. I think, I think that's a really good thing to, to look at and consider when you're going to take that leap. What is— what have you sound— again, there's, there's going to be nuances, right? But experience-wise, just curious, what's the sort of— where's your like golden pit, like golden period, or like what you really like to look at from an ex-recruiter standpoint? Because there'll be a reason for that. Is it like 3 and a half years, 3 years, What have you found so far from all of the data that you have? What's like the sweet spot? I think that might be interesting for people to hear.

That's really tough, um, because we've had, we've had, we've had partners that have come from TA, like internal recruitment, that I've tried to convince this is a bad idea and said, look, if you, if you, if you want to give me your money and I'll help you start up an agency I'll do it, but I want to let you know that I give this close to 0% chance of succeeding. But if you are that adamant that you're going to make this work, then I just don't want you to feel that this is my fault. So if this does not work, don't come to me, and I want you to own it up. And she's gone, yep, no worries. And then fucking ripped it so good, like one of our best partners. So completely pro— proven me wrong, um, and I'm so grateful for that because sometimes I have this like chip on my shoulder that if you're not in recruitment being successful right now in its current state, then how can you transition over to being a recruitment agency owner? And it's actually not the case. Like, I've got, I've got a gentleman that started with me, same situation, and maybe I've got to keep doing this because it seems to work out really well when I doubt people. Um, you know, he's never been in recruitment before and this is probably a little bit different around— he's a recruiter at Vendido, my recruitment agency, and he came from a big background of managing like 10, 20 teams, sales management, not on the front line. And I'm like, mate, this is like you're in the trenches pumping out 50 calls a day, you get knockbacks, like you don't have a team to rely on. Are you sure? Like, you don't want to work here, mate. He was a client of ours. I think we placed like 6 or 7 roles with him. And he's like, mate, you give me a crack. And he went com only. He's like, mate, I'll go com only, I don't care. So I was like, all right, fair enough. And then he's billed $850K in his first 12 months.

Let's go.

Never been in recruitment in his life, works remotely, and he's crushing it. So I— the reason why I give you those stories is because I fucking don't know, man. You know, I speak to recruitment agency owners that have like— sorry, recruiters are like 10 years— like, I've seen this myself, 10 years recruitment experience, absolute genius on paper, starts his agency, hasn't done it, doesn't do a deal for 4 months, and then pulls the pin. But then you see like a 12-month, 24-month recruiter have a red-hot crack, and they've got no preconceived ideas, and they're just like, I'm just gonna hustle my way through this. Um, so yeah, I wish I could give you a bit. That's fair.

I think so. Maybe then the things to reflect on, can really consider, is one personal life. What does that look like? How's that going? I think that's the fair thing to look at. Two, I do think regardless of the experience, I think definitely like how good is my network, or like have I actually built a network over time? Because I do think— I don't know what you think about this, but I think if you're a great recruiter and you have great relationships, you've done a good job. I think one of the, the best indicators of that is when you do go out on your own you have people say to you, Blake, always love working with you, like, let me know when we can work together. And you have people reach out.

Yeah.

So I do get that sort of levels of experience, but most importantly, your network. And has it been in the same area? Have you continued to build that? Because the likelihood of you being successful in that first year and beyond is going to come in your network that you've built. Um, but then I think the other part is, regardless of experiences, then are you someone that's willing to learn? Are you someone that's willing to ask for help? Are you coachable? Uh, like you said, are you cautiously optimistic? So maybe it's those types of things that people really need to reflect on to go, actually, is this the right move for me or not?

Yeah. What do you think?

What about with everything that you've learned? Obviously it would be a different path if I decided to sort of start my recruitment entrepreneurial journey with X Recruiter, but if me and you were mates and I was like, look, X Recruiter is not for me What— how much money would you recommend I start with? Like, what would be like a good amount of money that you felt like, you know what, if you saved that and you're not an idiot, you're gonna— you're not gonna have loads of financial pressure over yourself? Because I do think that helps. Yeah, again, there'll be loads of examples where people started with like $2,000 and like made it work, but I know people always curious about that. What's too much? What is a good amount? What do you think about that financial runway-wise?

So we've always said you want 3 months living expenses. Generally, like, I'm in two frames of mind with this. So if you— what I say to people is, if you went and got another job at another recruitment agency, how quickly would you do a deal? And most of the time, like, oh, within the first month, maybe second month. I'm like, okay, so do you think you could do the same by yourself? Like, oh, I guess so. Because sometimes people go, I need 12 months runway, what if I don't do a deal in my first year? And whilst it's sensible to you know, be, you know, bring down that like level of expectation. Um, the reality is if you went and got another recruitment job at Hayes, at Randstad, or just a random recruitment agency, you wouldn't have a, you wouldn't have a job in 6 months. And if you're a good recruiter, of course you're going to make a placement in your first quarter. Like, that's just, um, I think it would be unusual, um, if you were to get a recruitment job and not make one placement in first quarter. So I guess it just depends on what your lifestyle expenses are That's a really, really big thing. A lot of people live above their means and have a lot of debt. So number one would be don't worry about saving up yet, just get rid of your debt first and foremost.

Yeah, that's good advice. This isn't the financial advice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll put the disclaimer down the bottom. Um, you want to try and get out as much debt as possible and cut as many expenses in your life as possible, even if, if, even if it's just like 6 months. So if you're my mate and you're like, pt, I want to start an agency, what do I need to do? I'd sit down and go, all right, get all your expenses out, get cut all your subscriptions right back down to the bare bones. Like, you don't have to have a shitty quality of life, but let's just like trim the fat so we know what your baseline is. Okay, your minimum living expenses is $1,300 a week. Maybe if you had 3 months living expenses, 4 months living expenses based on that, you're probably good to go. As far as starting the agency, like the capital required to start an agency, like we've spoken about this before, it's kind of like How long is a piece of string? Um, so yeah, you could probably start an agency for a couple of grand. You could rip the terms of business off your old employer, you get a $50 website, and you could go get job ad for $150, and you're off and running kind of thing. But what you'll find is it'll cause a lot more pain in the long run. Um, so if you were to do something reasonable where you're building a brand and building an agency that at least will give you 12 to 18 months runway of like looking okay-ish for your first couple of years and feeling okay, you'd say maybe $5,000 to $10,000, like if you're being super, super conservative. You can obviously do a lot more than that though. Like again, if you want a better brand, you want more depth in who you are, like we've got— I see recruiters that don't really give a shit about what their brand looks like. Sorry, not what their brand looks like, what their brand means. So you've got looking pretty, Have you got a website that looks pretty and, you know, has a few buzzwords on it? Sweet, you're off and running. But like, what does it actually mean to build out your brand further as you build staff members, maybe build divisions? What does your brand look like over 2, 3, 4, 5 years? And that requires a lot of strategy and thought, which is typically more expensive than just making something look pretty. So if you were to just— this is maybe a long answer, but if you were to just consider getting started, maybe $5,000 or $10,000 and then 3 or 4 months living expenses, you should be good to go.

I think it's just really helpful for people to hear that because again, you're in the center of this. But I do think it is also like personal, right? Everyone has a sort of their own personal feelings about risk, how much risk they want to take. But I think hearing you sort of work through all of that will be really helpful for people. And it is, it is personal, like how you want— do you care about how you look straight out the gate? Some people really care about that stuff, some people don't. Um, but it's definitely interesting to hear. What also interested to hear your thoughts on this, again, if me and your mates having a chat, there's a lot of factors that go into this, but you've got a lot of different types of people to look at and what you've seen. What if we— if me and you have been really real, how— what have you seen typically to be like first year billings? Because I reckon a lot of people overcook this and like I don't know, actually, maybe you see both ways. Some people maybe really underestimate what they're capable of, what they could do. If me and you're being real, I tick most of the boxes, I'm good, I've got a network, I'm going to be someone that's willing to ask for help, got my personal life in order. What do we— market dependent, I get, I know. But what are we saying? What do we think is like realistic first year? Because normally when I speak to people, you said to me year 2 and year 3 is harder, but I know a lot of people want to get to that first year milestone. I can do it, I can prove it to myself. First year earnings, what are we saying?

I would say you should at least strive to bill exactly what you billed the year before at agency. So if you're a $500K biller, you should be billing $500K for yourself. If you're a million-dollar biller, you should bill a million dollars out the gate for yourself because nothing really changes. Like, you swap your email signature and you're off and running. Like, that's ultimately what happens unless you're getting fed deals and leads and all this kind of stuff from your previous employer or your contract recruiter, and then you've got to start again. Like, that's a little bit different. But if you're just like a perm recruiter and you're pumping out $500K a year at a big agency, you've got a bunch of clients that are happy with you, they like you, they've got a good relationship, and they'll probably follow you. There's no reason why you can't bill $500K on your own, um, in your first 12 months. But again, it kind of depends on how you get set up, because like, I talk to agency owners all the time now. We've got more and more agency owners come to X Recruiter than actual recruiters these days. And like, I'll sit with a, with an agency owner and they're 18 months in and they've billed $550K. I'm like, oh, that's awesome, good job. They've changed CRMs 3 times. They've lost heaps of deals 'cause their terms are just copied and pasted from their previous employer. And their previous employer probably copied and pasted terms from their previous employer. And they're dealing with like 1990s sets of terms that just are completely irrelevant and there's a lot of like gaps. and there's no scalable process, and they're just hustling, losing drive, losing fulfillment, losing joy, and they're like, yeah, look, I'm kind of billing almost the same, but I can't keep this up. And then that's where year 2 and 3 becomes challenging.

I think I do, I do like that goal, to be fair. That's a good goal to set yourself, isn't it, in terms of like, I build this, I can build that. What's, um I don't want to get in any trouble here, but like, my advice to anyone that goes out on their own is play with a straight bat and don't try and do anything smart with like covenants and stuff like that. Because I do— that is often what people sometimes are concerned about when it comes to their first year goals. Some people will just do the 6 months and won't start until they've done the 6 months of the covenants. Not everyone's in that position to do that. But like, what, what's your typical advice on there? For me, it's like, just play with a straight bat. It's just not worth it, you know what I mean? Because that is— that's a big part, I think, personally, on where maybe there's a bit of self-doubt, or what can I do because I can't touch my existing clients. And sometimes that does also mean I haven't been out there winging, winning new clients for the last whatever time period. I have my key accounts, I developed them. So that, that's what definitely— that gives people some doubt, I think, sometimes.

Yeah, I've probably got a bit more of a controversial take on it.

Oh no, go on then.

Oh look, I guess there's two areas to this. Okay, there's your moral obligation to your previous employer and your legal obligation to your previous employer. And so if you've got a moral obligation to do the right thing, then do the right thing. But legally, there's so many gaps that you could probably get away with almost anything.

Well, um, really, do you think? Yeah, I guess you, you, you're gonna be way more in the detail on this than me. I'm not looking at— because this will be something that you— I'm assuming is part of your process, like, let's look at your employment contract, what can we do, what can we not do. Yeah, you're going to be in the detail on this, aren't you?

Yeah, definitely. It's something that specifically I have to deal with every time we launch a brand. Most of the time there's legal letters involved, really, and I'm the one that has to jump in and solve them. So, you know, without giving away the secret sauce, um, yeah, I, I think you should follow your moral, um, your moral obligations. Like, if you don't feel like it's the right thing to do, don't do it, because you don't want to just, you know, create a bad name for yourself and do anything facetious. Um, there's a difference between having a great relationship that you built yourself for 5 years at your previous agency, and then you go out on your own and that great relationship still wants to support you and your business. Like, I don't see anything wrong with that. Um, but if you're downloading the database and then sending out a bulk email going, hey, I've started a new recruitment agency, and you've just sprayed your previous employer's CRM, that's probably not smart.

Don't do that.

No, don't do that.

Um, so don't download the data.

Don't download the data. No, no, just—

why would you do that?

You've got to play a straight bat. Um, but if you got— if you have really good relationships that are like, hey, look, I'd love to support you I would still say recruit those roles. Some, some people go, oh, I can't touch you for 6 months, I can't recruit for you for 6 months, got a great relationship, blah blah blah. They're being really, really sensible and, and playing by, you know, what's written on the paper, whether or not what's written on the paper has any weight, uh, to it, if, if you need to prove it. But, um, but yeah, I would say if you've got some really, really good relationships, 3 or 4 key relationships that you feel that you've developed yourself. So it's different if your employer hands you 3 or 4 relationships and then you build on it and then you take them. Like, that's probably poor form. But if you're out there, you're a 360 recruiter, you're finding relate, you're finding clients, you're finding candidates, and then they just want to move with you because you're a great recruiter, then I can go for it.

Okay, let me just ask one more question on this then. Again, this isn't legal advice, like, you're gonna have to— okay, so Because you're going to be way more in the trenches of this then, what would you say is the most consistent thing that you see that is in there to be enforceable but probably isn't forcible? Do you know what I mean? Like, what, what is it that you, you always run into? Because I'm sure there's— I don't know, maybe like you can't— like, I, I've heard some absolute horror, horror stories, if I'm honest. Like, you can't join— like, there's loads of different things, like I spoke to someone at the TalentX event actually who was telling me that their previous employer basically said like, you can't take your LinkedIn. Yeah, if you do, we're taking you to court. And then literally the new company that she joined, they ended up paying X amount of money. Um, but like, what, what is— have you found typically to be like in there but it just is likely not going to be enforceable?

Oh, there's heaps. I've seen like 4-page non-competes.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. And I'm reading through this non-compete and most of it is garbage. Okay. Um, it's essentially like a waterfall— have you heard of the waterfall technique?

No.

Okay, it's basically, um, you can't recruit in this location for 12 months. If that doesn't stick, you can't recruit in this location for 9 months. If that doesn't stick, you can't recruit in this location for 6 months. And essentially what they do is they just throw everything at it, and then they'll cross their fingers that something will stick because no one's really sure what will. So they'll just, you know, they'll cover everything that's possible, right? And then hopefully that sticks. So, um, in permits, really, really easy to go, oh, you, you have nothing to worry about. Contract and labor hire is a different story. Um, so if you take a con— like, if they've got an a physical contract, let's say ABC Recruitment has a contract with Coca-Cola for warehouse operators, and then you start your own agency, and then all of a sudden you take those contractors and place them at Coca-Cola just with your own brand, that's really easy to go, hey, you're going against your non-compete because you're taking the same people, placing at the same, the same location. Whereas if you're a perm recruiter and you've just done a random one-off reverse market, floated a candidate, they've hired them, you've cracked on, and then all of a sudden they call you 6 months later and you've got your own brand and they're like, hey, can you help me fill a role? Then, you know, there's, there's nothing, there's nothing facetious there. You just crack on. Like, they can't really prove that you've taken that client. Even still, like, if we just think of the, the logic behind it, if If I've recruited for Coca-Cola, let's say we're in front of a judge. The judge is like, you've stolen Coca-Cola off these people because you did a perm placement for Brad. Um, and, um, what that business has to do is essentially prove that they would have placed Brad in that role and earned that fee if it wasn't for that person, right? And then how do you prove that you would have placed Brad there? How do you do that? We don't have a magic ball. So it's like, well, hang on, would you have called Brad? Would you have gone through the recruitment process to the point to get the same outcome? Would that have actually been your fee if it's contingent? So how do you actually, how do you actually nail someone down on contingent perm recruitment? I don't think you can.

Something to think about for people there, isn't that?

Yeah. What do you think about that?

I think for, like, for me, I think the thing that I say to people is what I said earlier. Like, you're in a very different position to me because you're, you're in that position where I don't even know if you have, like, internal legal expertise, or you probably do, I'm not sure. But like, you're really in the trenches of looking at this, like, what's enforceable, what's not, what— where they're just trying to— trying their luck here versus not. I'm not in that. I just speak to people that are entrepreneurial, maybe have ambition to start their own recruitment business. And I do like the way that you put it. I do like this sort of— you have moral obligations, you have legal obligations.

Yeah.

I think if you were to go down the journey of— with X Recruiter or a different business, I think that is one of the benefits that you do get, is that you're going to get proper advice on like, this is what's probably enforceable versus not. But for me, I think I don't know what you think about this, but for me, it's the reason why I say just play it with a straight bat is more because of the moral side of it. But two, I think a lot of the times when I spoke to people that do get letters through the door threatening of legal action is how much it affects them mentally. So that's why I give that advice, just because I think it's worth— it's just worth not even worth like potentially being in that situation, particularly if you're going to be on your own in those first 6 months. For a lot of people, they will. If, if, if it's just absolutely rattled you, like, oh my God, I'm gonna be taken to court, that's all, I haven't got enough money for that, like, that, that can affect a lot of people mentally. So it's like, it's not even worth it. And if that still does come through the door, which it probably will, you know you haven't done anything.

Yeah, um, 9 times out of 10, even if they haven't done anything wrong, they'll still get a legal letter. Um, what— that's what I've seen. And so you're right, even if they are doing the right thing, the legal letter can still rattle them and and knocks them off their perch. But that's the whole point of the legal letter. Um, how many legal letters— oh, I've, I've never seen a legal letter— I've heard of maybe one or two circumstances where it's gone further than the second or third legal letter. But like, the legal letters aren't there to try and recoup or get money out of someone. It's there to try and knock them off their perch, to give that the previous agency a little bit more time and breathing space to try and either bring their relationships back that they're perceiving are leaving. Um, but, um, yeah, like, you don't have to do anything wrong to get a letter.

Yeah, exactly. And I think also, just, just to round that out, I think also I haven't met anyone that did play with a straight bat, didn't go anywhere near their clients, which meant that they then had to go out there, win business, win new clients, form new relationships. You're not speaking to someone like that who's had to do that at the end of the 6 months and they're going, I'm really annoyed that I had to do that. Yeah, but you're not going to regret being forced to do the thing that's going to be the, the most important thing to future-proof your recruitment business, which is build your job pipeline.

Yeah.

And go and speak to new clients.

Yeah.

Because that's going to be your most important— one of the most important skills.

Yeah.

Um, so let's, let's get into a bit more in the detail of that year, that year one, and like doing a really good job in, in year one, because again, you're— you would have seen a lot of things that people have done well versus not well. So I guess let's just first talk about what have you— let's just go on the more on like the client acquisition side. One, that's probably normally the most— the area that people always like want me to talk more about on here. But I think when they're thinking about their own recruitment business, because some of the things that we're talking about, non-competes, whatever, they know they're gonna have to go out there, do new business, win clients. So what, what are some of the principles that you've consistently seen on that side in terms of how your partners have gone to market? Like, what's been some of the consistent plays that you've seen work well on downstream from that, then winning new clients? Getting out the gate strong. What have you seen there?

I think it just comes down to activity, how many calls and client visits you're having. Um, so what I find, there's kind of two types of founders. The one type is, I don't need a website, I don't need a brand, I'm just going to pump the phones and hit my network up and make deals. Cool. Like, that's the highest probability of success if you're just going to back your activity then that's in your control, so you're good to go there. But then there's others that are really focused on the detail of the things that don't necessarily matter. Like, I'll give you an example. You know, you'll find some founders that, you know, won't pick up the phone or, or send a prospecting email to potential clients because their email signature just isn't right. And they're almost kind of stalling themselves and trying to find reasons not to just go. And I think there's an element of giving themselves permission to just get started. Because when you start a business, there's no like gong that rings. There's nothing actually that changes your state to go, I'm a business owner, it's time to get going. It's like this thing you have to do for yourself. When I first started my agency 7 and a half years ago, I registered the ABN and I sat there and I went, I fucking guess I'm a business owner. And so like, it was like, and then I thought, what's next? And there was this like air of not too sure what to focus on. Is there something that I should be doing as a business owner now? And the reality is you just gotta keep in your lane as a recruiter, do the BD calls, do your client visits, don't worry about the little things. That is the highest probability of success. Just back your activity. So that's, that's probably one thing that I would share around the differences between some people that have a bit of a false start. They don't build too much, they're getting too into the weeds and into the details of business ownershipy stuff that isn't actually necessary yet, um, and they're not focusing on the metrics that matter, which is phone calls, client visits, resumes out, candidate interviews. That's it.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not surprised to, to hear that. And like, what do you think that the main reason why people can fall into that is? And I've seen this, is it's just there's just so many distractions now, isn't there? Like, I'm sure you've spoke to people where you might speak to them like, oh, you know, first month in starting their own recruitment business, and you learn that they've done more demos on products than they have calls.

Yeah, there's just so many—

there is a lot of distractions, isn't there?

Like, yeah.

It's just hard though, isn't it?

Yeah, you just can't overthink it. A lot of people overthink it, um, and they also abandon their original thoughts in the first place. So there's like— there's one element of people that overthink it and the kind of analysis by paralysis type thing, paralysis by analysis. And then the second is, um, the moment something better comes along, they'll just drop whatever they've got and then just relocate. Like a CRM is a perfect example, or trying to find some new crazy tech that's the silver bullet to not having to pick up the phone. There's a lot of distractions as a business owner when, when you can do whatever you want, the decision is yours. And so when people have all this choice and they start to wander, their mind wanders around, oh, this is cool, oh, this is awesome, oh, this is cool. And then all of a sudden they've spent a week going through fluffy stuff that didn't really matter. And then when they look back, they go, fuck, if I just picked up the phone and met a few people, I would have had a few jobs by now. I'd have been in flow. This would have been awesome. Um, so, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of agency owners out there that wake up every morning and go, I know I need to do a few BD calls today. And instead they're replying to an email to a supplier about a little detail in some little contract because they're just trying to find things to do in this business ownership landscape that just is a waste of their time when they should be just be focusing on being a recruiter.

So do you wanna— and this is obviously a big part of the $100K in 100 Days, I'm assuming part of it was the sort of what was born out of this because you would have seen this time and time again maybe, or you really try to support people that you guys did partner with just try and stay focused, try and stay disciplined. Do you want to tell us about this 100K in 100 days piece? Because I do think like this sort of stuff would not have been developed when we last spoke.

No.

Yeah, this has all come from you guys figuring out, right, how can we— again, probability increases, massively increased probability of people partnering with X Recruiter and getting the sort of the results that we want for them and they want.

Yeah, so we developed a 100K in 100 Days program for the first 100 days when someone launches their agency. And the psychology and the kind of the trigger that made us develop this is what I've mentioned before around permission to start recruiting. What we found was we'd set someone's agency up and they'd just still be thinking about, oh, what else can I do? And it's like, you don't have to worry about anything else, it's all done. Just start recruiting. And then I was, oh, should the logo be on the left side of the letterhead or the right side of the letterhead? Should I have my address at the, in the footer? Or it's like, man, this this stuff doesn't matter. You just need to start going. Like, you're not getting paid now, bills are starting to rack up, you've got expenses that are getting incurred. Like, you need to call clients today and see if they've got roles open. And there was almost like this gap between, okay, I've started my agency, and when do I actually start my agency? And so we thought we need to give people like a starting line so they can go, oh, go, okay, I'm— this is it, this is day one, I'm off and running. And so that's why we thought we need to develop a program to try and psychologically trigger them to go, okay, I'm day one in my agency, it's time to put in the work. Because there's this big gray fuzzy area when you're getting set up where you don't know the— where the line is between I'm getting set up and I'm set up.

Yeah.

And it's like this never-ending fuzzy line.

Close the loop of like, right, everything's done now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so It like, even we set their agency up for them and we were still experiencing that there's like this weird fuzzy kind of thing that happens. So we developed the $100K in 100 Days program. And essentially what the program is, is to get them to bill $100K in their first 100 days. 'Cause a lot of people don't think that that's possible. They go, oh geez, $100K in 100 days, what? How's that? You know, I'm budgeting to bill $100K in my first 6 months. And we're talking to a $700K biller and they're saying, I want to bill $100K in my first 6 months. We go, mate, you need to be billing $700K in your first 12 months. $100K in your first 100 days is really, really achievable. And so what we do in the First $100K in 100 Days workshop, it's a 6-week program that goes for a couple of hours a week with Matt Cossens, our Chief Growth Officer. And it's all about how to show up and BD as a new agency owner. So what we found was, um, when you start your agency, you start to reconsider how you pitch yourself, and you're like, can I say I used to work with these people because I've never actually worked with them in this new agency and it's brand new, but I used to work with them at last agency. Can I take credit for recruiting for McDonald's for the last 5 years when I'm a month into my new agency? Do I have to, like, how do I show up and how do I present my value when I'm a 3-day-old business owner. And so the 100K in 100 Days workshop, the outcome of it is the average person that goes through it builds $118K in their first 100 days. So it exceeds— yeah, it exceeds the $100K kind of tagline, I guess. But it's all around how to refine your pitch, how to start identifying your market, how to double down on your niche, objection handling, all the things in recruitment that you probably know you should be doing but have probably forgotten because you sow in the weeds of like, I'm a business owner, and then you forget to qualify a candidate, or, you know, you forget to ask for the business for, from a client, and all this kind of stuff. So we make it really actionable as well. So in the first week, let's say for example, is around building out your hit list, creating your 12 steps of follow-up, whether that's a letter, a present, an invitation to listen to a podcast that reminds you of them, an email, a text, 12 different forms of follow-up that you have in your first 90 days. And you have your BD list, and then you go through every single form of follow-up every couple of weeks. And then the next week it's like, okay, how many pitches did you do of your new pitch? Because, you know, everyone creates their pitch in the first week, and then they go out and they're feeling confident to start hitting the phones. Um, and then it just goes through the journey of excellence in the recruitment process, you It's like a 6-week intensive, and it really gets people to orientate themselves as their new business owner, gets them in the rhythm, and then they continue that momentum through their first 12 months.

So what have you found to be the sort of best overarching advice that you do give new founders around their pitch? Because I have found that people either overthink it, like you said, should I say this is my track record, Should I own the fact that it's just me in my bedroom starting out? What's ended up being the sort of most consistent advice that you give people? Because I think that would be really helpful.

Yeah, so what we do in the workshop— and I'll just quickly tell you a really funny story about pitches. So before we did this, we would have a chat to an agency owner and go, how you going in your first couple of months? Oh, I'm not getting my jobs, I'm not getting the cut-through, blah blah blah. We're like, Oh really? And we're trying to like diagnose and fix, like, oh, what's your pitch? And this, this guy was based— his pitch was basically he would call somebody and go, hey, just thought I'd let you know, I just started my business, I don't have any clients, so I can poach from any company, so do you want to work together? And I almost fell off my chair, and I thought, wow, okay, we need to get better at helping new agency owners present themselves with authority, credibility, and not have like a little bit of a, a scattered moment when they're trying to get their foot in the door. Um, so I could give you multiple, multiple really funny examples, but I'll just leave it at that. So what we do in the $100K in 100 Days workshop, it's a system, right? So we don't— it's not like, oh, here's your script. What we do is we get the last 5 or 6 placements 5 or 6 companies that they've worked at. We profile the hiring managers that they've placed with, then we profile what their pain points are around why they would have hired that person, and then we identify what the impact was in that hire that they made. And so if I can break this down, so let's say we've got 5 different companies, you've done 5, you've done 5 sales managers that you've just placed perm. Well, if you're calling, let's say, a CEO, and we break down what the objections are, what's important, what the impact is that you've made, it might be, oh, hi Mr. CEO, I work with other CEOs like you from this industry, this industry, this industry. I've helped them solve one of their staff turnover challenges by placing a really high-performing sales manager in that was able to actually stop the churn of the sales team, improve performance by 40%, and do this, this, and this. I've noticed that you're CEO, and I'm not sure if you're having challenges with your team similar, but that's what I'm finding with conversations with other people. And half the time it's like, okay, we've got some good cut through there. We've give them— told them a story on the impact that we've made. There's another framework that we do which is called MCP. So it's called Myself, Company, Product. So it's, hey, I'm Blake, I'm from Vendito. We specialize in sales recruitment. My business, we solve challenges for hiring managers in XYZ, which results in ABC outcomes. Myself, I'm really, I'm really passionate about the industry. I would love to be able to catch up with you for a coffee, blah blah blah. And so what we try and do is make it really personal to the recruiter, to their experience, use case studies, what they've done before, and then craft a really nice script that they can be really proud and, and really confident and almost excited to use. Because not many, not many people are excited to pick up the phone and pitch someone. But then when you've got like a really thoughtful, well-crafted pitch that you're proud of— because half the recruiters don't really grasp the impact of what they do, so they're just placing roles, they're hitting numbers— but then when you like think about it, like, what is the actual impact to the business of this admin person that you've placed? Has it freed up more time for the project managers to deliver more, to bring in an extra $500 grand? Has it— like, what are the impacts of the placements that you make? And then when you go through this with recruiters and you're like, oh, this, this, this, and you identify all these huge value adds that they've done in their last 5 roles that they've placed, they're like, holy shit, they're feeling buzzed, they're feeling excited, and they're like, wow, I'm fucking awesome. Yeah. And then all of a sudden they want it, they want to pitch more, they want to jump on the phone. And so it kind of like really starts there. Around building their confidence up, getting them really excited about the impact that they've made, and then they— it doesn't feel like a cold call anymore. It feels like a— feels like something else.

And what's your advice for people on— is your advice for people just to own the fact that like they're just starting out, they've launched a business, versus trying to sort of like be smart with that?

Yeah, I mean, when I first started Vendido, I called it Vendido Consulting Group because it sounded like it was a big business. It was just me. So I go against that now because more people are champions of small business than otherwise. And so if you are just starting out, you want to lean into it, because if you are starting out, it means you back yourself and you must have some sort of ability. So if you're pretending that, oh hey, you know, I'm part of this big business and blah blah blah, it kind of the the message gets lost somewhere. So the best thing you can do is lean into it, but you don't have to like promote it and, you know, tell them on the first call that I've just started my business. Like, it can come up naturally.

Yeah, let's be authentic about it.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Yeah, I'm like all for that. I think I hear that all the time as well when people are building out new markets, or maybe I always did this particular niche in the UK, now I'm going to the US, is like just really being authentic about it and just saying like, look, I'm building out this market, I'm speaking to more and more people like you, and just owning that. Um, like, always hear how actually effective that is and how willing people are actually, uh, to help, um, versus trying to sort of be smart about, yeah, I've been doing this for ages, and like, act like you know it all. I just, I just don't think that sort of resonates with people.

Yeah, people love energy, and there's nothing better than like first-year business owner energy, especially if they're in like a good space, you know. They're excited, they're keen, they're ready to rip in. Like, you generally just want to work with someone if they're excited about their job. And so you'll find that there's recruiters out there that are 10 years in it, they don't really give a shit, they're just like going through the motions, they've done it 100 times before, it's the same old shit. And like, they're not fun to work with, they're not exciting. And so if you had someone with a bit of energy and excitement that like is 12 months in business, it's pretty— regardless of their accolades, you'd be like, oh, this person's fucking great, you know.

And then I'm not sure if this has come up in the, in the program, but something that I've seen consistently been a challenge for people when they go out on their own is having the courage to say no to work. That is different compared to saying no because your manager told you to, or when it's not your business.

Yeah.

Have you seen that? Have you run into that? Like, how are we helping people with that? Have you, have you seen that?

Yeah, I mean, my general— and you know, whether I do the right thing or not, I'm still learning— but my general advice to anyone starting their agency is who gives a fuck about your first fee? Just get it on the board. Like, don't worry about it. If it's a 5K flat, just fucking take it. Okay. Get the chalk, the win up and go, boom, we're away. So don't worry too much about your fees when you first get started. Maybe after your second and third, you can start like being a little bit more picky. But I think there's more value in just chalking up a quick deal than there is trying to haggle over a couple of extra thousand dollars on something that hasn't happened yet. So do your first deal as quickly as possible regardless of if you're giving someone the best deal in history.

Um, um, but yeah, I mean, I think it's more about like when I do speak to people, they can get messed around and they probably knew they were getting messed around or was going to get messed around, but they didn't have the courage to go, actually, nah, this— I'm not going to work on this like this, do you know what I mean? Like, that, that is what I've, I've typically found.

Yeah, yeah, it happens. I mean, it just depends on where you're at and what's— what stage you're at in your business. Um, I've seen people in like the dumps trying to negotiate hard with people. It's like, mate, why are you doing that? Just fucking take anything you can get, dude. Let's get some money in. And then, you know, like, it's horses for courses is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I mean, I could give you the politically correct approach of like, yeah, know your worth, know your value, get big fees. But just like, if depending on where you're at in life, in, in business, take what you can get to start with. If cash flow is a problem for you, which it is for most small agency owners that undervalue themselves, then work on slowly increasing your fees. And you can do it in a methodical approach where, you know, maybe one quarter you're going to just have your average fee at, I don't know, $11,000. The next quarter you're not going to accept anything under $11,000 and it's got to be at least $12,000. And you can have a staggered approach where you don't feel like you're just having this big swing and you're going to lose a deal. Like, maybe just take it a little bit more methodically. But yeah, I mean, you want not get stuffed around, but it just depends on where you're at.

That's fair, that's totally fair. Talk to us about— because I think there'll be some things here that people can take into their own business if they've already kick-started their entrepreneurial journey, or just give them something to think about if they're considering it. Obviously, I know it's called the X-Recruit Operating System, but I think again this would have been born out of you guys figuring out how can we again really increase the probability of people being successful.

Yeah.

So talk to us a bit about this, because when we prepared for this, you— when you were speaking about you, I could tell how passionate you was, and like, because clearly you're seeing the impact that it's having. So tell us a bit about this in terms of this operating system, why, why it's important. Like, talk to us a bit about that, because there might be some nuggets here that people can take.

Yeah. So as, as I refine my thoughts and, and get more and deeper perspective on people's journeys and reflect on my own journey in my own recruitment agency, the one thing that has always been missing is a rhythm of business, something to look forward to, some sort of actionable operating system where you're not just putting money on the board for the sake of putting money on the board. So if you're like a small agency owner, generally all you care about is Oh, what's, you know, what did I build this month? What did I build this month? Did I build more than the previous month? And like, that's pretty much the only thing that you're thinking about because you've really got nothing else going on. You're just a really high-paid recruiter, and that's where the fulfillment starts to die and the joy starts to die, and you feel like you're just on the hamster wheel, and it sucks, to be honest, because you don't have any excitement or vision to like where you're going. And so the XROS is abbreviated. It's, it's like an opera, it's an operating— we call it an operating system. It's kind of like a rhythm for your business. So in recruitment and most businesses, there's kind of like a, a swing or a cycle of how your business operates. So, you know, your first 12 months you go through this expansion phase, 12 months to 24 months you probably go through a bit of a consolidation phase because you're trying to just like um, sticky tape all the gaps that you've got from your first 12 months going fight or flight. Once you've got your systems, your processes, and your procedures down right in your second year— because usually your first year you're just scrapping for deals— your second year you're getting your processes down right. Then your third year you go into another swing up for an expansion phase. And so it kind of like— it's like a pendulum swings in your business, and you just got to orientate yourself to go, all right, where am I at in business right now? The overarching theme is always to build more and make more money and all that kind of stuff. That's fine. But what this does is the XROS pairs you up with a partner success manager where every fortnight they do a 2-week tactical call, which is what's on your plate, what's consuming your mind, what can we take off your plate, how do we make your life easier. That way we give a bit of a sense on are they distracted, are they focused on the wrong things, are they worried about their letterhead, or are they worried about the client visit that they're going to, just to get intense check on what they're focused on. Then every 6 weeks we do an activation workshop. So the one thing that we found, and you would probably be, um, you know, we're preaching to the choir here, is when you go through training, the gap after your training is executing. And unless someone is really dialed in and you've got them in a certain moment in time where it clicks and they apply it, then they're not going to apply it. People don't just sit there in training and go, oh, that's a great idea, and then just start brilliantly executing the day after. And so what this XROS does is every fortnight we're doing calls to go through what I've just explained, and then every 6 weeks we're going through the excellence in the recruitment process to actually get in their business for 45 minutes and go through whatever the theme is in the pendulum swing of their business. So if they're in year 1, year 2, year 3, whatever it might be. So if they're in year 1, it's obviously usually always about generating business leads, referrals, reviews, credibility, all this type of thing. So the 45-minute session will be, I'll sit down with you and we'll go, all right, let's look at all the placements you did last quarter or the last 6 weeks. Okay, great, we've got Cindy, Brad, Byron. Have we gone to those 3 candidates and asked them for a referral or gotten a review from them? Ah, you know what, no, I haven't done that. Okay, cool, let's do it right now. Like, oh, okay. And they do it. Um, and then you go, all right, so here's the 3 hiring managers you placed. Have you asked those hiring managers to introduce you to another hiring manager in the business and try and widen that account? Oh, kinda. What have you said? Ah, it was just a bit of a passing comment. Okay, let's do it right now. What do I say? Let's write it out. This is what we're going to say. Go after these hiring managers right now. And then all of a sudden, now every 6 weeks they've got someone with a fresh point of view, a different perception, that are seeing things a little bit more holistically, and they're not in the weeds of what the agency owner is doing, and actually executing things every 6 weeks to drive the needle forward. Once we do that, we also do our quarterly business review. So this is really important for us to make sure that we're adding value. What we didn't do for the first couple of years, and this is something that we've always missed, is have this rhythm. In everyone's business. And it was probably the gap that we've always had where people are like, oh, you just send invoices for 25%. It's like, we don't actually do that, we do a whole lot more. And so sometimes like, oh, you set people up, but what do you do to run them? And so, um, this is kind of like a really exciting development that we've got that will add far more value, um, for them long term, uh, over and above just getting started. Because getting them started is quite simple. We've done it so many times, but it's about how do we drive performance and quality of life, which is one of the other most important factors. Because sometimes people aren't here for performance, they're here for quality of life. And so instead of like driving numbers and holding them accountable every fortnight, they're like, dude, I don't want to do that, man. I just want to chill out and spend time with my family. That's why I'm doing this. Let's go. Okay, cool. Our 2-week tactical calls are around What's bogging you down to stop you from spending more time with your family? And they're like, oh, this is pissing me off. Cool, let's solve that. And so there's— it's different for everyone, but this operating system is really, really good for reminding people of the things that they know but have forgotten about and making sure that they execute it every 6 weeks to drive the needle forward in their business.

Yeah, I mean, I can see how even being, you know, sort of founder myself, how like the big thing that is hard when you've got your own is that accountability, right? There's no one holding you accountable besides yourself.

Yeah.

So I can instantly see how beneficial that's going to be because me and you sat down 2 weeks ago and I maybe said I was going to do this, and then I get up there, I'm going to feel and look stupid, and you're going to hold me accountable and that's just going to want to make me take action and do things.

Yeah.

What I really like as well with how you've done that, which I think people can take, is the 6-week part. And this has come up a lot recently actually, of like, you have to be mindful of like how much you try and change at one time. So I really like that as well. 6 weeks is probably a long enough time to be like, right, let's get this done and maybe let's focus on these things and then we'll revisit again in 6 weeks and see how to get on, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

So I think that I really like that as well because that's something people can take, because like, okay, there's loads of things that I can do, but let's just focus on really doing this consistently for 6 weeks, and then I'll revisit and maybe then go on the second on my list.

Yeah.

And then, yeah, quarterly business review. If you're not doing those on your own, or like trying to do— have some sort of rhythm where you take a step back, review, reflect, what am I doubling down on these things, then you should absolutely be doing that. So I can see the, the final point on that, the, the unique position that you guys are now in as well, is you're doing that rhythm with how many people, right? So although they'll be nuanced and personal, I can assure you, I'm sure if you start seeing common themes, common hurdles, it's like, right guys, let's, let's put something on. Everyone is saying this, let's just get on it. So that's the other cool thing as well with the position that you guys are in, is that because you're in the detail that much now, you can probably help people more quickly and like collectively as well.

Yeah, what's really, really powerful for us is we've got a 5-minute pulse check. It's a survey that everyone fills out once a month, and it's on all areas of our business, which gives us more insights to improve. But it's also a pulse check on how they're finding the market, are they happy with their performance last month, what are they focusing on this month, what are their challenges, blah blah blah. And so we've got this heat map when they fill out all these questions. There's a heat map, it's like greens and oranges and reds, and then all of a sudden you see like some trends and you're like, oh, people are actually like a little bit disappointed with their results last month because it's all subjective. Like someone will bang out a $200K a month and they'll be like, ah, just missed the mark. Someone will bill out a $5K a month and be like, ah, that sucked. And then all of a sudden we go, okay, this is a trend right now in 60% of our agencies that we support. Let's do a workshop or solve this problem for the collective. And then when you go to everyone and go, hey, this is what we've noticed, these are the challenges, this is what we're going to do to fix it. The other 40% are like, oh fuck, I was feeling the same way. And then all of a sudden they're getting like extra love and support from, from other people that are having the same challenges. But perhaps maybe the two different people didn't articulate it the same way. And so when you have this like community collective that are all providing their like insights and feelings and challenges and all this type of stuff, when we can solve as a group, it becomes so much better when you're running your journey and then you've got so many more people that you can lean into and figure out things and educate yourself and grow. And it's like this massive gap between if you're solo. Obviously I'm really passionate about X Recruiter, but I couldn't imagine now running an agency by yourself, you know, in your spare bedroom or at a little WeWork and you're just kind of battling with the man in your head versus getting support from a business that do it for multiple agencies, tapping into the collective wisdom of everybody else, getting a sense check. Oh, hang on a second. Yeah, my month wasn't great, but that's actually what everyone else is feeling. Maybe it's not me. Oh, okay, cool. I'm just going to keep cracking on. That gives me a little bit more self-reassurance. And so it's, it's really important to try and get yourself out of those moments. And I think that's why the XROS is really good. And some of the things that we do from a community standpoint are really good. Because it just helps keep people on the, on the right path.

So let's round this out, mate, because I think, look, you guys will be doing the consistent education, but I think it's important to hear, like, when I first met you guys, I may or may not have said it to you, but I think for a long time, for the people that have been in the industry for a while, there's been plenty of like horror stories of I partnered with a company like X Recruiter and they took 50% of my business and they didn't really do much. They helped me at the start, but then the sort of value just went downwards, really.

Yeah.

Um, but I think more and more, um, companies now, or there's like more and more options now for people where it doesn't quite look like that. So like, again, this has probably evolved for you guys, but what, what does this actually look like? Like, you know, if I partner with X recruiter, you're going to take most of my money like, do you know what I mean? Like, how does this actually work? Because I think it's just important to put the education out there because there'll be people that have a certain perception of how you guys operate versus the actual reality.

Yeah.

So just give us a bit of an understanding there. Like, if I'm a recruiter, I have aspirations to go out on my own, you know, I tick a number of the boxes that maybe you'd like me to, to tick, like, how would that actually work if I launch my business with you guys? Is it, do you get own part of my business? Do I own all my business?

Yeah.

Do you take my billings? Do you know what I mean? How does that actually work?

Yeah, yeah, good question. So, um, we don't own your business. You own your business 100%. We don't take any equity. That's really important for us because if someone wanted to take my equity to give me a bit of a head start 7 years ago, um, I would have probably felt a little bit hard done by after a few years and gone, hmm, you know what, was that the smart move? Like, um, so I think a big A big factor for us is that we take no equity. We're essentially a service provider in a sense. So if you wanted to start your agency with XRecruiter, you would come to us, we'd go through the screening process, make sure it's a good fit, make sure we're aligned from a success standpoint. We don't take people that want to work part-time or, you know, make it where they're sitting on the beach in Bali and do one placement a month and this kind of stuff. Like, we really want to partner with people who either want to change their life and build a really good business, or they want to continue to be a great recruiter and not have to worry about any of the additional admin, insurance, finance, tech, all that kind of stuff from the back end. So the process is you would come to us, there's a sign-up fee depending on what type of level that you want to get started. Could be anywhere between $10,000 to $20,000. We sit you down with our branding team, we do a full branding workshop, go through your vision, mission, values, make sure we get the meaning behind what your brand is, what your niche is, so it's all looking really good. Then we design your logo, design your brand identity documents, put together all your graphics. So email signatures, LinkedIn banners, social media templates, like absolutely everything that you're ever going to need. From there, we establish your terms of business. You move into the web, the web team. The web team designs and builds your website custom. And I'm just going to throw this out there, our websites are pretty sick. I think they're the best websites that I've, that I've seen. And I look at a lot of recruitment websites, I reckon they're some of the best websites, um, the output that we've got. Um, we plug you into our, our tech stack, so it's a range of different products from accounting software, credit checks, CRM. You get LinkedIn Recruiter license, Seek, Talent Search, etc. So we set up all the foundations and make sure your legal, your contracts, your compliance, your HR, all of that's perfect. From that, you go into your $100K in 100 Days workshop, and then you get started. Now, we pay all your operating expenses. So this is sometimes the, the confusion when, um, when people consider, should I go with Execruter or should I do this on my own? So Execruter pays for your CRM, your LinkedIn Recruiter license, your insurance, your integration to the payroll system, like all these, all these things that are quite costly to set up from a best practice standpoint, we actually bankroll and pay the whole entire thing. So the fees go from 25% to 15%, but that covers— of your billings, yeah, but that covers your operating expenses. So not only do you— are you not signing 12, 24-month agreement contracts with insurance, with LinkedIn, with CRMs, with all these different suppliers that you're trying to work out. Um, all you're doing is, um, doing a revenue share of your 25% or 15%, depending on what you bill. So it's a tiered scale, essentially. And then we pay everything for you. So the money in your bank account is just your net profit, and then you're off and running. So sometimes people I talk to and they go, oh, but if I bill, I get 100% of my billings. And it's not It's obviously not the case, but sometimes it's— there's a little bit of a learning journey for a recruiter that's setting up their own business. You've obviously got a lot of expenses that come out of that, and then when you think of your first 3 or 6 months, you're in the red for a while, you're trying to claw yourself back up to neutral and then go. With our recruiters, they're billing $100K in their first 100 days, and they're net profiting $70K to— depending on what they bill— $70K to $80K in their back pocket after all expenses have been paid, and they haven't actually spent any money other than the sign-up fee. So it ends up being really, really good for people who want to have low risk. They don't want to go backwards $7,000, $8,000, $9,000 a month when they're not billing. So it's really good for low risk. If they want best practices, they want to feel confident that they've got no gaps in their business because we've done it so many times now. We know what's right, what's wrong. This type of stuff. Recruiters who want a bit of authority and credibility from day one— a lot of recruiters skip that part because it's quite expensive. They skip that part and then they end up doing a rebrand and a refresh in 12 months, 18 months, and then they're distracting themselves from billings. Their billings go down, and, you know, all this opportunity cost stuff happens quite a lot in your first couple of years when you don't do it right from day one. So if you want to look good if you want to make sure that there's no gaps, if you want to follow a proven framework where someone's holding your hand through the whole thing to make sure that you're billing far more than you could have otherwise, um, yeah, that's why people come to us and that's the process.

And then how long am I tied in for? How many years? If like get 3 years down the road, I'm like, actually, I know what I'm doing, I just want to crack on, don't need an ex-creator's help, can I do that?

Yeah, yeah. So we used to not have a long-term agreement, it was month to month. For our first like 40 agencies. And what we found was, um, there was like a, a commitment gap between us and the, and the recruiter because like we didn't know if they'll be there next month. And so all of a sudden what we didn't realize is we're trying to be the good guy and go, hey, if you don't want to be here, just leave. Um, and so that was kind of like the, the approach to like why we don't have long-term agreements. But then we've realized we're actually not fully investing in our partners because we've got this like anxiety in the back of our head.

Is it—

are they going to leave any moment? So we do— to answer your question, we do 3 or 5 year agreements now. With that 3 or 5 year agreement comes a plan. So whether you want to be a solopreneur and have a lifestyle business and just have yourself and automate a few things and get more hours back in your day, or if you want to scale up, have 8, 10 consultants billing $3, $4, $5 million a year, and you want to start like going interstate, all this type of stuff. So we create that plan over that contract time. Once the contract ends, you can either renew it— that's what we'd love— or you can say, hey, cool, thanks, I'm going to keep cracking on by myself. So the challenge is on us really to provide the value for them to want to renew it. So we'll see how that goes. We've only rolled out the 3 or 5-year agreements in the last 6 months, so no one's actually renewed yet. But yeah, we'll see.

Yeah. Yeah, well, I think, um, kudos to you guys, you know, like obviously I sat down with you guys a while ago. Clearly, I mean, I'm not sure it ever ends, but like clearly have really thought about ultimately that what you just said there, like how can we really make sure that we're delivering value to our partners, um, and it's come a long way, right? So really excited to see how you guys get on Um, really interested to hear what you guys continue to learn when you break past the 100 partners and more. Um, but generally think it's, it's great what you guys are doing, and like, just love hearing just that, that growth journey that you guys have been on and really developing what you deliver, what you offer for people. So, um, really appreciate you coming on, man.

I appreciate your kind words. Thanks for having me. It's always a good chat, and I love being on your pod, mate. It's, it's awesome.