What Every Stage of Building a Recruitment Business Really Teaches You with Conor Boland from Quest

Connor, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks very much, cheers for having me.

Excited to get stuck into this journey because we were just saying you're in a really interesting phase. Uh, so we're really gonna talk about this entrepreneurial journey that you've been on because you started your recruitment business when you were— I've got here just 23.

You have 23?

Ambitious. Uh, maybe some people might have said naive when you started out, but started this business Quest Personal in 2018 when you're just 23. Self-funded. I mean, we're going to talk a bit about that, but to give everyone a bit of insight on the journey that you're currently on— let me know if I get any of this wrong— but as I said, started this in 2018, self-funded. I think we had circa £15,000 that we saved up from your recruitment billing days. And then to give everyone a bit of a timeline, the important sort of chapters, what we're then going to come back to, but first couple of years, I think would maybe describe it as a lifestyle business, figuring it out.

Yep.

Having fun, earning some good money along the way. So going into COVID, there was 5 of you including you.

Yeah, that's right.

And turnover was around just under quarter of a million. And then 2023, we broke the million mark, 1.2 million turnover-wise. And then last year was your best year, 2024, 1.4 million.

Yeah.

And then in terms of what this business looks like, or did look like around then, was 9 or 10, uh, billers, 1 in ops. Um, last year it was 15% contract, rest perm.

Yeah, around that. Yeah.

We're on a bit of a journey where we're really breaking into the US market, but 2024, uh, business that wasn't in the UK was only 30K. So like majority of it was UK-based, right?

Pretty much exclusively. Yeah, a small amount in Ireland and And your world is engineering.

I've got here consulting, engineering, automation and controls. I might have that wrong.

No, that's right. Yeah, they're two different things really. But yeah, we're consulting engineering. So it's all pre-construction design. And then we have another side of the business, which is automation and controls, which is like, it's sort of easy way. It's kind of the robotic side of factories. And that's all in the US.

Love it. And then your role now is very much I guess figuring out what you can spend time on that's going to have the biggest impact on the business, right? So I've got here US growth side, you're involved in that strategy, process, direction. You have a strong client base, but over time you've had to delegate that to people and those relationships. So very much now in this position where you was a biller, but now you're already building the company.

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, you've nailed it there.

So our goal here is we're going to talk about a these sort of chapters, because I was telling you that a lot of people will find themselves starting a recruitment business and may have ambitions to get out of whatever you want to call it— lifestyle, or it's, you know, um, a small team. They have ambitions to grow and for whatever reason find it really hard to do so. So we're going to talk about that part of this journey, what that was like, what were the good parts about it, what was challenging, what did we learn. And then we'll then talk about, okay, How do we go from there to where we are now and where you want to go? And what are the main differences? What we've had to learn the hard way, so then hopefully people can benefit from that who are listening to this. So let's start with this first chapter. Why, why 15K? Was there any like math to that? Did it sound like a good round number? No, I feel good with that. Talk to us a bit about the 15K. I don't know if that was intentional.

No, no, no intention behind it at all. So I I came, it was about November time and I came to the conclusion I was gonna set the business up, but I didn't have any money at the time cuz I was living at home. So anything I earned, I, I was spending. So then over that kind of timeframe, it was, I, I was still billing quite well. So I was earning, you know, a good amount in comms each month. So I was tucking it all away, got to February and it was, it was, I had a conversation with two of my friends who have their own businesses in different spaces. And they kind of were saying to me, no, what is your role within the company? What do you really do? And I was a full standalone consultant. So I, the desk I was working on, which is civil engineering, there was no one at the business doing it. So all my clients were my clients. You know, we built it from nothing. Um, and they, I kind of came to the conclusion that really, if I was going to do it, now is the time. I was 23, so I still lived at home, didn't have really any risk. and thought, you know what, 15 grand's probably enough. And in my mind I also thought, well, if I'm doing 25 grand, 30 grand a month, every month, it's fine. Give it 4 or 5 weeks for me to do my first placement. The money will just keep rolling through. It'll be, it'll be easy. Sometimes that naivety is actually, is a blessing because you can overthink why it's not going to work. You can give yourself every reason why it doesn't. I've always been and still am someone who's super risk comfortable and I'll happily take risks all the time and we'll probably go through that as well in some, in some bits. Um, and yeah, that was that, just that was all I had.

So, so did you, did you not find it? Because I feel like this is definitely a challenge now, which I'm sure you won't be surprised by, but you can very easily find yourself in the rabbit hole, what tools you need, tech. If I was to speak to you then, what would you have said, like, you was going to spend that money on? Was it, yeah, just all I need is a phone and CRM, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, so I didn't have— I didn't use LinkedIn Recruiter. I didn't have it when I was a consultant at the firm before, so it didn't feel like I needed it. So yeah, all I had was, yeah, got just a simple phone system, had an office from day one in WeWork. Yeah, had a CRM from day one as well. I never wanted to be a, just have an Excel spreadsheet work out later on. I thought that would work for today, but, you know, 6 months, a year down the line, you're just chasing your tail all the time trying to, you know, work that out. So, Yeah, it's a pretty simple kind of stat.

What was your monthly cost then, do you reckon?

So, yeah, yeah. So I got an office for, you know, £700 a month for an office. I think a phone, I spent £80 a month. I had Vincere— not Vincere, Velocity, which is like quite an old school system I used to use, and that was £140 a month.

So that was all in, just like £1,000 quid.

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

Okay.

And then I managed to—

I had over a year runway, mate.

Yeah, yeah, in theory. But then, yeah, beer money and all that stuff.

And, and yeah, so it took 3— I got So you said here what, it took 4 months until first invoice paid?

Yeah, first invoice was on the 4th of July that year, and yeah, started it in on the pretty much kind of mid to late Feb, start of March. So it took a little while, which was terrifying.

What was like the— did you find yourself being like, is this not going to work out?

Like, yeah, the self-doubt's always there as well. Fortunately, quite a few of my clients and the one I did the first placement with have been a great client in the last 7 years as well. The director reached out to me on the first day and said, look, I've heard you've left. You know, we really want to support you. So you've got all our work straight away. So that was helpful, but just getting people to buy into you, you know, sometimes they see a 23-year-old kid on his own and think, great, but why work with you? Why not work with a well-established business? You know, and that, that was difficult. Also, I got sued by my last company, so a chunk of the money went on to lawyers for that. Um, and they— and quite a few clients were then a bit skeptical to work with me because, you know, some kind of recruitment tactics and business tactics to try and work.

Did you— I would— I'm always interested to ask people this: in this phase, did you like own what you were versus trying to be perceived as something that you wasn't. So did you, did you own the fact that like, this is where I'm on the journey, we're a startup, this is what I'm building, versus a lot of people just basically just lie basically and fake it till they make it type vibe?

Yeah, so a bit of both really. Like some of my existing clients knew exactly what the setup was, they knew who I was, I think. And it probably wasn't the right thing to do necessarily, and maybe didn't help, but given that full sense of scale, having like another person who was the accounts person, but it was just me and all that to kind of, you know, all admin will reach out to you with our terms of business and that'll come from, from the admin and operations team. So yeah, I, I think looking back now, guys probably would have bought into us more— sorry, bought into us more if they were aware that, you know, it's a guy giving it a go. A lot of people like people that have entrepreneurial spirits and give it a go as well. So probably could have led into that a bit more than being authentic. Yeah, exactly.

That was— that word's overused, but really, yeah. But I get why you would have done that. So it's interesting now for anyone listening, do you, do you think that gave you an edge at all? Like, sort of?

No, probably not. And, you know, and it's more effort than you need it to be for, for probably—

I think that would be my advice, like, owner. Like, I, I do get why people would try and force that perception. But generally, I think— I, I don't think it's necessary, or I don't necessarily think it's going to be the reason why someone else works with you.

No, I think what people buy off people, especially at a smaller scale, they, they want to work with you. So, so yeah, be that, be authentic, like you said.

Okay, talk— tell us about this, because I think what— when you tell me this story, I just loved it, because I think in today's day and age I don't know if you agree with this or not. I'm a huge advocate of being an entrepreneur or taking that leap, and it's very rewarding, but it's also very hard.

Yeah.

And I just love this story because I think it really paints a picture of sometimes how resilient you have to be and how just, I guess, open-minded you have to be. And that is part of this entrepreneurial journey. Like, it isn't, it isn't going to be straightforward journey all the time. I'm bigging this up like this is like a big thing. I thought it was class. So talk to us, talk to us about this, this story that you told me around what you had to end up doing because you found yourself getting close to that point of like that 15K being gone basically, and you had an office. So talk to us a bit about this because I thought this is a class story.

Yeah, so I think one thing I didn't factor in, again probably from not doing any market research, was that with the CRMs, with offices, they don't just let you pay monthly. They want a solid chunk upfront. So with a lot of the money gone and, you know, placements hadn't been made and it was sort of getting close to times where it was, it was touch and go. Um, I ended up running out of money and couldn't afford to get the train every day to the office, but was paying for the office. So it was in a bit of a conflicted space. So yeah, office was in, was in Allgate Tower. So I thought, What I'll do is I'll reach out to Mercedes of East London, called them up and said, oh, I'm the owner of a company called Quest Personnel. We've got a load of guys here that are frequently on site visits, meeting clients. They all drive Audis at the moment, but we're coming up to the end of the lease. So we're reviewing you guys, we're reviewing BMW. You know, is there any way that we can test drive an S-Class, a C-Class, and an E-Class all for a week? And then we'll review at the end. So they were like, yeah, of course, no worries. They thought this could be a good contract. And I feel bad for the sales guy. but they, um, yeah, every week they would drop down a brand new Merc and then I would use it, drive from home, park it in Whitechapel, like on the road, and then just drive home at the end of the day. So I managed to get that kind of, that period of time that took me over till I got paid by my clients. And then I was able then to actually afford to get the train and come in.

But I think that's just such a great story of like being resourceful.

I think resourceful is a great word to say. It's a bit crafty, but no, you need to, you know, it's thinking on your toes. It's And also it would have been easy at that point to go, you know what, I'll just— it's not worked out, let me just work from home and then see what happens. But I wanted to kind of, yeah, make it work through, through whatever methods I could, I could go for, really. Yeah.

And casting you a bit back here, but like, if me and you were to sit down in that sort of early period, year 1, year 2, like, how would you have spoken about the business, do you think? Like, if I said, like, oh, Connor, what, what are your goals for the business? How's it all going? Like, how would you have spoken about things? Because did you, did you feel like that part of that journey, you, you had clarity on where you was going or what the future was? Or was it just very much, I'm now a recruiter but I have my own business, so I'm just thinking about doing deals?

Yes, like, it was definitely way harder than I thought it'd be. And I don't— I mean, I had just over a year's experience in recruitment, full stop. So there were a lot of things I just didn't know. And I thought I knew everything, but you learn really quickly that you don't. I think there was a level of clarity that I knew where I wanted to get to, but how I got there, I just, I didn't have that roadmap. And, you know, I knew I didn't want it to be a lifestyle business forever, but sometimes it's hard when you're in that trap of, you know, you do a couple placements, you've got all this money, you think, oh my God, I can literally do whatever I want. And then enjoy yourself a bit too much. And then you just start again and start again. But we've always, We've always tried to push ourselves as a business whenever we got comfortable. So in that first year, we had like 4 offices because it was like, okay, we can afford now to get somewhere bigger, let's go to there and keep pushing. Um, but in terms of having clear direction, clear clarity, that definitely wasn't there from, from the beginning.

What, what was a lot more harder than you anticipated then? I'll just give us a bit of a flavor there. You know, you said that it was probably a lot more harder than you realized. What were some of the bits that you really didn't anticipate?

I think the growth side. I thought in my mind it would be really easy. It's make a load of money. All right, then I'll bring someone in and then they'll do really well. And then realizing actually that unless, you know, unless you've got a good business, good people often don't want to jump on board. They might see the vision, but what's the value add for them? And then also bringing people in, the time that you're losing to train them. If you're, you know, the sole breadwinner of the business, it's a really tough trade-off. And then that can end up stretching what, you know, now we're getting guys, we spoke about it before, time to profitability. Now we're, you know, we had a guy join 2 weeks ago, first deal was already done today. Whereas at that point we're looking at like 6 to 9 months before they're really up and running. And I didn't forecast that being the way it would go.

Yeah, it's just a continuous learning journey. Yeah. It really is like having your own business. Yeah, I do really feel like it's, The way that I describe it is it is the ultimate, like, personal development journey that just never ends.

Yeah, something new all the time, isn't it? Yeah, it is nuts, really. And also becomes such a key part of your identity as well as a business. I like a lot of time you— that's who you are. I'm the guy that owns this company, this is what I do.

What would you say were the main, like, looking back? Because I'm sure, I'm sure you've had, if we're being like really honest, with each other, but maybe you haven't. But I'm sure that you maybe caught yourself in moments being like, oh, wouldn't it be great if it was just me and a couple of people just making some good money and that's, that's what it was? You might not— yeah, so that— but like, what— because a lot of the time I think in, in today's world now, if you think about when you started this business, 2018, the landscape is like drastically different in terms of you can tell me what you think about this, but there's never been more— there's never been more clarity on having a different type of recruitment business or how you can build a recruitment business. I think a lot of people, maybe when you started and later than that, it was like, if I wanted to grow a recruitment business or grow a profitable recruitment business, that often comes with headcount, that often comes with growing teams and people. But I think now with technology, with AI, there's really a whole nother path there that a lot of people love to sell online, but that is, that is a genuine path for people. Whereas I think if me and you would have a chat in 2018 and then you were talking about growing your business, that, that would probably involve people, do you know what I mean? Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

But so what I want to actually get here is what are actually the, the good parts of being this type of business? Because a lot of times people talk about how hard it is and challenging it is. But what would you say looking back now? Because you are in a very different phase. What were some of the the benefits of this type of business? Was it that actually you didn't have to think about making payroll and all these different people? Was actually, I had a lot less things to worry about and actually it was quite fun?

Yeah, I mean, it was great fun. Like, like, so the first guy I hired was, was an old housemate of mine, Harry, and it was like I was working with my best mate every day and we're in a WeWork, so it's free beers after work. Like, it's, it's, it was crazy hours. Like, we were in 7 in the morning till 8 at night most days. But it is, it is really fun, like, living in that way. But yeah, I think what you're saying is right. Like, there is a vanity behind headcount that you feel like, I'm really important because I've got a 5-person company. And I think if I looked at one of maybe some of the periods we've had a lot of people and they're not contributing as much as others, and you think actually it probably would be easier just to have less and have more high performers and have a bit of fun with it. But I think the reason why we have got away from that is because I did want to eventually grow it into a not a proper business 'cause they're all proper businesses, but something that is self-sustainable that has the option for an exit at some point as well. And I think there comes a point you have to factor in, am I going, which, you know, which path am I going down?

Mm.

Not that one is right and one is wrong, but I think it's just being aware of it.

You've gotta have clarity on that.

Definitely. Yeah.

But safe to say that, that early period was a lot of fun.

Safe to say it was a lot of fun. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. A lot of stories that I can't talk about on, on this.

Anything I think, just to round that out, because I think sometimes it's something that people miss, how, what was your journey like on getting paid? Because that's sometimes people, things that people can overlook. Like, did you have any challenges with that, or did you have to learn that the hard way? Whereas like, you might have thought, yeah, send an invoice, I'll get paid.

Yeah, we've only had a few bad times. Like, and to be fair, it's in a market that we did, we used to do a lot of resi developer work, and we had, yeah, we had one contractor working for this developer and we were paying out a good chunk of money each day. It was quite a senior level guy there. And I reckon our first payment came 5, 6 months afterwards. And that was like, oh God, what do you do now? You know, credit cards get maxed out. Like it's stressful. But we've never, like, we've never factored any invoices, which I've spoke to some people and they're like that, why do you carry that stress? But we've been fortunate enough that our perm side's kind of run enough that any contract stuff we've not been massively concerned on. Um, and, but you learn, like, we, for example, we, we never used to do credit checks on firms. We work with a company called, called Metnor who have now gone bust, and we end up losing a load of money with them for a contractor. But you learn from that, and it's like, look, they're painful mistakes to make. But now when we're working with contractors and we're working with these suppliers, it's like, okay, make sure they can pay you. Is it worth getting insurance on some of them if they, you know, are a little bit higher risk? But Yeah, it's not something that you really kind of think about when you, when you first start out, that people are just gonna drag their heels, not pay you, or, or yeah, the dangers come with it.

Again, I think that's the, uh, you can just be naive around those things, but it is a real challenge for people. So again, I think it is— you may hear it on here, but it may be one of those lessons that you just have to learn actually by going through it. Yeah, but you can definitely do things or put things in place that hopefully protect you from that, because I've only had that like 2 or 3 times, and it is a shit thing. But I think sometimes, particularly when you've been employed, you're like, I've done a placement, you put the number on the board, and then you see in the next month's commission paper, you never think about, you know what I mean? So yeah, let's get into the, this next, this next part of this business journey then. So what do you think were some of the things that, like, going into, like, between that COVID and then to the, the points where then you broke that million turnover mark? What were some of the things that you, you know, looking back, do you feel like you really started to do differently or start to implement or really start to prioritize that then led to maybe more structure, more consistency, or more of an ability to actually grow this business? Like, what are some of the things that we started to do that maybe wouldn't have been there in those first couple of years?

Yeah, I think made some key hires. That was a big thing. So we brought in Dom, who had, yeah, 8 years of experience at that point, came in, new kind of division on that side. So that was, that was massive for us. Um, also just acting and, and starting to put processes in place, starting to have standards, procedures, hiring our first kind of operations assistant. So, you know, we had times where the lads would be spending all day mapping and then all day formatting CVs and getting everything, you know, whereas like, okay, we can, let's delegate that down. Of course it's going to cost us a bit more money to hire someone, but that time is now freed up.

Which days did you do that?

That'd have been around that, around that kind of time, around the sort of just, just post-COVID time when we came back.

So how many, like, recruiters, strike bidders did you have?

Yeah, so then we went from— so after COVID, there was just, there was just 3 of us, and then we grew quite quick. So we brought Dom in, brought another couple guys in as well.

Yeah.

Um, who are still with us now, guys that have now moved through to sort of principal level. Um, so we would have been around sort of 5, 5-ish people, 6.

Yes, I'll just interrupt you there just because I think that, that is one of those hires where sometimes people are a bit hesitant maybe to pull the trigger on, but straight away you've got someone in that is, if done right, they're giving time back.

Yeah, massively.

How come you decided to do that? Because a lot, a lot of people don't pull the trigger on that, or Do you know what I mean?

It was just, I think, a bit of reflection on the business, looking at the amount of time we were wasting. That's the big thing. And it's just like valuing the time, looking at the— sometimes it can seem pessimistic, but always looking at the opportunity cost of any action you're doing. You know, okay, if I'm doing this, am I wasting my time doing it? Should I be outsourcing this? Should I be delegating it to someone else? You know, and it's like, if I've got guys there who are unbelievable salespeople, you know, who can nail the phones for an hour and generate X amount of business, you know, why would I have them sitting here, you know, doing not, not tasks that are, you know, mundane or anything like that, but just admin-related tasks. And we sort of look at it and we still talk about it now, which is any non-billing task, you know, try and make sure you guys aren't doing that. So it's a big attraction even today when we bring in people over from slightly larger organizations that maybe don't work that way. We have a dedicated operations team who you know, any task that comes through that, you know, whether it's your mapping, whether it's prep packs, you know, company profile, job specs, everything, it's like get it to them, you crack on and do what you're good at.

So key hires, operations person.

Yeah.

What are some of the other things that we feel like we started to, start to make its way in the business that really then helped you guys continue to grow?

Yeah, I think the big one we spoke about is the structure and organization as well, and starting to create a bit of an identity of who we are. So even though we're a small business, you know, we were coming in every day suits and ties, you know, operating on, on a sprint basis. So we were doing sprints throughout the day, which is, you know, we're all there, all on the phones together, creating that atmosphere and that, that sales floor feel to the, to the room. And not that you need to wear a suit to be a good recruiter, but it just, for us, it's a standard thing. It's, you know, these are the standards, these are our non-negotiables. Um, and that started to create a bit of an identity so that when people were joining us, it wasn't Okay, what, you know, what kind of business is this? What do we do? It's okay, look, this is what everyone does. I'm going to be a part of this. And that saw us kick on massively in quite a short period of time. And it created that internal competition in a positive way. Guys were trying to outbill each other, you know, and it was, it was a healthy environment in, in a, in a competitive environment at the same time. And I think all of us, that kind of gave us an idea like, okay, we knew who we were then, maybe a bit of a confidence behind it now. So we didn't feel like we were going to be imposters pitching on these big accounts. We were going to, you know, pitches for some bigger clients, some of our big clients now, and we were beating these, you know, 150, 200 people recruiting businesses, and it was us 5 lads out of an office. But, you know, they understood who they were going to be working with and it made sense to them.

So you just built a lot more proof, a lot more evidence of actually you guys doing a good job, believing it. You started to build all that in this time.

Yeah.

Love that. What— Your own journey, like how these things you were talking about, where, where did this come from? Was you just like, how was you learning, do you know what I mean? Like, was you just figuring it out?

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, just kind of just, just wait or just try, like try things. If it doesn't work, it doesn't matter. Like, at least give it a go, you know, have consistency in what you're doing. I'm very open as well in the office to like, you know, it's not just my way or the highway, speaking to the guys, what do you think will work? And also it's a quite small industry. So speaking to people in it, if we're hiring people, you know, where you used to come from. So we hired a guy who joined us 2 weeks ago, comes from a very large recruitment business, and we sat down. What was everything that they were doing that you thought was amazing? Okay, now how can we now implement that into our business? And just be open-minded towards that.

How did you, in this sort of phase that we're talking about, where you started to add more people in, you've got operations and you're you know, building towards the point now where you're less reliant on client relationship side. But a lot of people I speak to really struggle to hand over those client relationships, or very reliant on. How have you gone about that? Is there anything there that you've had to learn maybe the hard way on how to do it well, or how to do it wrong in some instances? Like, how did— how have you been like passing over client relationships? Because a lot of this stuff is really hard to do if you're then still the top performer.

Yeah, it's not easy, especially when you feel like you're giving up free money really for someone when it's a great client, but it, it just works and you realize actually, you know, especially for people, not everyone wants to do really tough BD calls and not everyone really wants to kind of win new business. Some people are really good at just maintaining good relationships. I don't know if there's a real secret recipe to kind of doing it in the right way. I think, you know, it, how we do it at least is, you know, for a process, maybe 3, 4, 5 weeks leading up to the handover, this person's involved consistently in emails on calls, you know, it'd be a case where we'd go down, meet the client, bring the new person along who's going to be kind of handling and taking over on that side as well, and then just keeping in touch too. So I've had a few clients that I've worked with for years, we offload to someone, you know, and they'll still call me after 4 or 5 weeks like, yeah, no, but I'll work with you, Connor. Like, that's the, that's the way. So it's, you know, you also don't want to be a bit of a helicopter boss and standing over people. Let them, you know, make their own relationships and make their own mistakes, you know, in that side as well. Um, but I think also knowing what client is going to suit the person as well, I think that's quite an important thing. Knowing that not every client is going to want to work with the style that X, Y, and Z consultant works with. Actually, they're more aligned to this or that, I think, can, can make a difference and make that process a lot smoother.

Do you think, do you think you can get to the— and I know you feel like you still got loads of building to do still very much on, on this journey. But do you think you would have got anywhere near where you are today without being willing to hand over those relationships? Like, if you did just get in your own way, is that one of the easiest ways just to get in your own way and prevent that growth?

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, because one, it shows a lack of trust in the guys you've got there. And if they're, you know, willing to buy into you and work for you, you've got to give them a little bit of trust back that they'll be able to deliver on, on what you expect of them.

Because I think sometimes what people struggle with in that phase is, okay, if I do that, then what am I going to be spending my time on? Do you know what I mean? So if you're, if you're in that and you're slowly but surely passing on the client relationships, you're going through that process, what are you then filling up your diary with? What are you then allocating your time and energy to? Because you've got to feel like that's purposeful, it's having an impact.

Yeah, I feel like any business owner though, there's not enough hours anyway. So like any freeing up of your time is amazing because then you can do other things. But yeah, I think, but then also if you back yourself and you're good at what you do, then free another time, go win new business. And then that gives you the ability to bring someone else on and then start, you know, delegating the work down to them as well.

Yeah, because I, you can tell me what you think about this, but if I was speaking to another founder who's at the stage that you're at, I do feel like one of the— like you said, you're talking about opportunity cost there. So we're talking about leverage. Like, if I spend time on this, how much of an impact does that have? I honestly think, like, one of the best things that you can be doing, which is high leverage, is out there speaking to new potential customers, potentially winning accounts, and then, uh, you know, supporting the business in that way. I do feel like that's I do feel like that's one of the last things in this sort of phase and maybe even, you know, the next couple of phases that you want to try and outsource or completely get off your plate. I don't know if you agree with that.

Yeah, it's tough. Like, I mean, my role now, it's a weird role kind of because I'm still, you know, still billing, still winning new clients, but then also supporting the US side. So there's days where I'm working late with those boys and then there's other times where, you know, it is, it's one where it probably isn't the most effective and efficient use of my time. But then also it's, you know, when you're still bringing the money in, it's really hard to find that balance. But I think, no, I do agree with you. I think the sooner you can kind of start passing that on to someone else, the more that you can start working on the business, work on growing it, you know, developing the guys in the team as well.

That's what I mean. I do think that like in this phase that you're in, spending time on going out there, winning clients, opening up doors, and then yeah, helping the team do that. And then also spending time coaching with the team, helping drive performance. I do think they're, they're probably some of the, the high-level things that you should be doing with your time if we're handing over, uh, legacy relationships and, you know, freeing up your time that way.

Yeah.

So, okay, what I've got here— did it take a bit of time for you to, like, what did you have to wrestle with or maybe struggle with when it comes to having an identity. Like, I feel like this is something that people definitely learned the hard way during that whole boom period that we had. And I think that was one of the, the consistent lessons when I've sat down with people in terms of them maybe— because it was so competitive, there was like the sort of job pipeline, the opportunity was like just so healthy, they would do anything just to bring in Connor, who on paper looked like a great recruiter. So they would maybe overpay on basic, they maybe would pander to like the benefits they wanted. And I think a lot of people in that period, as a sort of culture business, sort of lost their identity, or yeah, ended up having a culture that actually didn't help them get to that point in the first place. Because I got here like sales-first culture, like getting to know you and your business. I think that that's very obvious, and I think over the last couple of years, I feel like for some founders that's almost been hard to sort of say, not the sales-specific thing, but just anything specific to what you stand for as a business and sort of shout that at the rooftops and then owning that.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, it— I feel like that's changed a lot recently as well. I think the market shifting is probably helped in a positive way. Um, yeah, because you— I, for a while, and I was hearing from a lot of people, it's like people were almost scared to upset their staff. Like, look, you know, whatever you want to do, we'll do, just to make sure you don't lose people. Because it's a, you know, everyone was desperate for recruiters. I think we've always been like, in terms of our identity, we've always been here 5 days a week, we've always been, you know, professional, we've always been relatively smart in our, in our appearance. We definitely lost that a little bit. I think one of the hardest things for us was we just didn't have access to that top-level talent, and we ended up almost kind of lowering our standards of the people we would hire just because we had so much work on. We're like, we just need bums on seats, even if it's not great, we're still getting a bit of that. But we realized over time, and this was why we sort of, we grew massively year on year and then had a year where we just kind of stagnated for really like 18-month period. We're still making a bit more money and still doing fine, but I think a lot of that came down to not hiring the right sort of people, not, you know, investing in top-level people and then sort of, you know, yeah, I think it's a standard thing for us. And then you start to lose your identity because you're expecting people to work in a certain way and they're not really willing to do that. Um, but I think where we've always been strong from in terms of an identity in the standard approach is just this is how we work. We've always been what we kind of call headhunters. We're more headhunters than recruiters, you know, we're very phone-based and we've, we've kind of never deviate away from that, which, which has helped really kind of maintain. Otherwise, I think you could lose, you know, a real chunk of kind of what you guys are about as a business. And then all of a sudden, you know, you look back and you go, well, everything that took us such a long time to build, we've now completely lost. And it's, it's a dangerous time.

How, how can we avoid that dropping the standards piece? Is it avoidable? I don't know. Like, did it come from a place of we need to make this higher versus like we really want to make this higher?

Yeah, I think it's, it's definitely that.

It's—

and also I think when you know that people are getting paid crazy salaries in recruitment, given crazy perks, and, and we're quite rigid in our approach, we didn't have access to, to lots, you know, to, to lots of different people. So then the guys you have working for you all of a sudden think, actually, I can kind of take it easy, I can cook at 70% because, you know, what they're going to do, they're going to get rid of me? Probably not. And I think a lot of recruitment business owners probably felt that for a while. Um, but as that's changed and as, as we've sort of stepped back and we look at it and now in a super, super different place, you know, I think it's just being unapologetically who you are and, and hold true to it. Because I think maybe you've said it before, like, ultimately it's your business. Run it how you want to run it. Don't run it how you think people would want it to be done. Like, it's yours. Have a bit of, bit of your own identity in it.

Yeah, easier said than done sometimes, but I do think that, that plays out. So how, how did you find— because I think this is something that again businesses struggle with that I've spoken to, but it's often necessary if they want to break through and really take a leap in that next direction or where they want to go, which is maybe recognizing what you just said and then making tough decisions. And this isn't about individual, anything like that. It's just you may be recognizing, actually, you know what, we have probably lowered our standards here. Probably need to recalibrate on letting everyone know what we're about, what we stand for, what we won't stand for.

Yeah.

And you're either on the bus or you're not.

Yeah, exactly that. And that, and that comes from even early stages. Like, we used to just interview, what do you think, and have a bit of a chat. Whereas putting processes in for that, okay, individual interviews, score them on these 5 key criterias, okay, then we won't sit down and openly talk about it because sometimes people can be influenced by someone else. It's Okay, then they all go off to the operations team. They'll then filter through. They'll score that candidate based on what we all thought. Simple things like that. Just make sure that actually, you know, okay, that person is a Quest person. We all know exactly what that is. And also like having that discussion. Okay, what does a Quest employee look like? You know, what are their key attributes? What their personality traits, you know, what do they want out of this? You know, and like you said, and then again, simple things, rewriting a mission statement and your vision and then putting out the team, making sure everyone's fully aware of what's expected. You know, there's none of this, you know, do we work late, do we not? It's never really said what should we do. It's like not outlining clear sort of clear attributes of what, what, you know, people should embody if they want to work within the business.

And how have you— because it isn't, isn't spoken about as much, but like within that, how, how have you got better at like managing underperformance? That's quite hard.

It is really difficult.

Yeah, pretty much all those things. But you may really have a quest person, but they're just not cutting it, or they're not at the standards that you need them to be, do you know what I mean? Because I'm sure you've had people like that on this journey. Yeah, you've had to become just better and better being like, right, this is— yeah, I don't know, just getting more clear-cut with those decisions.

Yeah, I mean, we started implementing, you know, performance reviews if we needed to, and— but not from a, you know, it's more kind of a carrot and stick. It's like, look, this is how we can help you get back in, into a level where you're billing and where you're performing. Also, as bad as it sounds, like, not being afraid to get rid of people if they're just not, you know, not cutting it. So it's, you know, I've seen it before in where I worked, and there were guys there who were just getting by. And, you know, and I don't know why you would, you know, still there's, there's general costs that go with that. You know, don't be afraid to get rid of them. Bring someone in that you know is going to deliver, you know, is going to really add value outside of just their role in the business. And don't be scared to do it.

When do you think— what do you think were the fundamental changes that happened internally that really helped you land what you would say to be like really great talent that could have such a great impact on your business that maybe before you would have felt like were maybe out of reach, or maybe would have said, oh, why would they join Quest? Like, they're going to join a different business.

Yeah, yeah.

When, like, is it all, is it a buildup of all these things, or do you know what I mean? When do you feel like that really changed for you?

I think it's a, yeah, it's definitely a kind of combination of a few. I think a big thing really is the understanding that it starts at the top down. And when was it, kind of back end of last year. So we had, we were kind of in a period, we moved to a new office, things were going, they're still going really well, but I wasn't really, really happy with the business as a whole. I wasn't happy with the identity. We weren't. Like I said, tapping into this top-level talent. And then I kind of went on a more personal development journey and worked with Jack Salmon, who I know you've had on here before as well. And breaking down over— I did it in a one-on-one course with him over 14 weeks, really digging into like, okay, who am I? What's my identity? What am I actually looking for from a personal level, really more than professional? But it really translated into it. I remember I had a conversation with him And he said, you know, where do you envision your business going in 3 years? What, what? And I said, oh, you know, I want to be X, Y, and Z doing this turnover. We said, look, I want to be sort of £10 to £15 million turnover. And he said, like, look, I don't want to take the piss out of you, but like, I thought you'd say more, laughing. And I, and that thought, and I sort of thought, okay, am I, am I, am I thinking small here? And it's that encouragement to really just be ambitious, think about what you actually want to achieve, and then go that step beyond. And I think sometimes it's easy to think conservatively because then you're not really failing that often, but going for something and really pushing. And then, yeah, we went from that to then pushing into the US, hiring, you know, top-level US talent, guys with great experience, top performers where they are, and they were coming over. And I think, don't get me wrong, I don't want to be kind of egotistical with it, but they bought into me and the vision I had for the business and really outlined to them exactly you know, the support that I would give them and the development that I'd make sure they have. And then being true to your word as well once they do start and not just saying one thing, then they join and it's the complete opposite. But I think especially if you own a business, if you don't genuinely believe the direction you're going in, you're never going to get these guys coming on board and buying into it.

So it sounds like really that really was the unlock.

Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah, it was, it was mad. I was going to say you should be on some kind of commission if I plug you in this.

Well, no, I just think it's like, because it sounds like— if I'm wrong here, but it was actually more of what it sounds like. To get to that point where you can really get some great people into your business— and look, we, we're all in recruitment, we know the biggest issues and the biggest reason why I'm going to get to— I'm going to get to— is people. Like, it, it— that is always going to be one of the, the top priority problems for any business. And it's also one of the number one reasons why you'll be able to get to you'll achieve your big goals is just having like world-class people on that journey with you. But it sounds like actually it was more about your own beliefs, your own vision for the business that unlocks more of that versus what the actual business looked like, it seems.

Yeah, because in theory it wasn't a massively different business to the one that it was 6 months before when I wasn't super happy with it. It was just more Yeah, it's having a more optimistic outlook and actually, if you go for this, what can you achieve? And probably getting back to my original core values of being super risk confident and not being afraid to take risk, invest really heavily into something, you know, and I think we spoke about it before as well, but sometimes people are scared to use rec2recs, which is sort of counterintuitive in recruitment industry, but partnering with a really good rec2rec you know, and actually seeing the value and what they can add, it really is like, it adds incredible amounts of value. You bring someone in who knows what they're doing, hits the ground running, you know, rather than you consistently just delegating out to people and giving them a little snippet of your business that you're already running and let them do that. So yeah, it's been, I mean, it's been transformative the last sort of, yeah, 9, 10 months for us now, which has been massively different.

So do you, do you think you could have attracted more, whatever you want to call it, like really great recruiters to the business if you had more of those personal beliefs changed?

Yeah, probably so.

Yeah, because I think that that's the insight for people, which is what I want people— which is why I'm, I'm just sort of focusing on it. Because actually it's not that you had this 20-person business and all these different things. Actually, it's more about being able to sit down with someone and having complete confidence and conviction of like, this is where we're going and this is where we're taking the business and this is what can be part of and this is what we're going to be able to do for you. And that's something that you have control over, you know what I mean? I think that's a good time for people because, you know, you said earlier that you maybe wasn't that happy, although looking around on paper you'd have been like, yeah, like we're doing all right. Like, what is it that you weren't happy with? Is it because you felt like you wasn't really maximizing your potential with the business? Was it you feel like you just, you had, there was like more and you just wasn't growing, do you know what I mean? Like, what was it that you was looking around and going, this is, I don't feel as happy as maybe I should?

Yeah, it's tough because yeah, externally you would look in and be like, this guy's killing it, and everyone looks like that from the outside as well. And I think looking at it going, not midlife crisis, but like approach my 30s, I'm no longer a young business owner now, I'm like actually just a normal bloke that runs a company. So I think it's a combination of those things. I think Probably, yeah, not being happy with, with where, you know, when you grow so quickly, we're doubling year on year, and all of a sudden we start going up by sort of 10%, you do start asking questions of, okay, where are we going to be in 5 years' time? We're not on the same trajectory that we were on previously. Um, you know, and I think sometimes, but then there's also the counter to that, which is like, if you're always chasing that next win, you're never going to be happy. But I feel like that's why people like myself set up companies because they just, they consistently always want the new thing and they're always chasing something and it's that level to it. But yeah, I think going back to what you said, it was that conviction and clarity and knowing exactly who we are. This is where we're going. This is what we're going to do. I think that's probably bigger than anything else that we put to it. Because we, like the, the lady that came and joined us, she had offers from fully established companies already set up, was a really easy position for her. But still thought, you know what, actually this is a journey that I want to be on. So that, you know, that, that's a positive thing for us.

So it sounds like in that, in that period before you really started to feel like things started to shift, it was just maybe if me and you spoke and I asked you like that question that maybe Jack asked, it, it maybe you didn't have complete clarity on that. Yeah, definitely, on where things were going.

Yeah, I think it was just Things were ticking over, earning good money. It was, you know, living a nice life. It— you end up just— and I think that's where people probably end up in that lifestyle business phase, because why would you change it if it's working? It's fine, you know, don't worry about it. But yeah, I think like we hadn't, we hadn't written a mission statement or a sort of vision statement for probably 3, 4 years before then as well, whereas in the start it was like, okay, this is what we're doing next year, this is where we're going.

Because that was gonna be my next question for anyone listening that may be like, you know what, where, where Connor was is where I am today, but I know I want that to change, or I know I want to get to this phase where I feel like we're progressing, we're moving forward, we're going in the right direction, we're getting closer to— I know what I want things to be like. How, how do we start taking those first steps? Is it actually really reflecting and thinking about those big questions and going, actually, yeah, what, where do you want to take this business? And actually really thinking about that and working backwards from that, like, how do we actually start taking steps in that direction?

Yeah, I think Definitely, you know, really considering actually where you want to get to is massive. I think a big thing that I worked on with Jack, which is, it was, he, everyone always says the same thing, which is, oh, when this happens, I'll do that. You know, when we're, when we're a 20-person company, that's when I'll hire this person. Or, you know, when we bill a million quid, that's when I'll hire that. Or, you know, and they're always waiting for something to happen before they get to it. And even consultants, which are like, oh, you know, I want to become an associate, but when I do, that's when I'll do this. Whereas what we started doing is, okay, acting like the company that you want to be at, you know, doing the things that you're going to do when you're that size, you know. And, and that gave us the clarity of like, okay, we know exactly what we want to get to, let's start acting like that right now, and you will automatically just end up in that position.

Um, yeah, honestly, like, it, it's, it's come up a lot because I do think— I don't know if you'd be surprised to hear this, but like, genuinely when I speak to founders that just sort of sounds like and seems like they're struggling or maybe just not happy with where they're at, a lot of it just stems from just not having clarity in what they want. And even this is something myself that is always a reminder, like, it is, it is so important to have that. And sometimes, particularly when you're a small business, it's so easy just to get caught in like a cycle of this month, this week I'm doing this, this month we've done this, and, and not taking a step back and really thinking about, right, where, where do you want to take this? And it does start there, doesn't it? And I know we've all heard that advice, but it really does. And then as soon as you've got— as soon as you then got that clarity, you can then start making decisions and taking action that help you get towards that, right? Because then, like you're just saying, then we then just focus on taking action and doing things today And then before you know it, start building momentum and that starts moving forward. And then before you know it, it's like, wow, we've, we've been able to go from we want to be in the US to now we've got our first placement, we've got our first hire that has all that experience. And that's because you knew where you wanted to go, you were confident making decisions, you were taking action.

Yeah, yeah. When you say it like that, it's like, well, it's so obvious, why would you not do— why would you do it any other way?

It's hard when you're in the trenches with it, aren't you? Where you're maybe making some good money, got people around you, it's so easy to get caught in the trenches of like this week's priorities and what we're doing this month and what do we do last month and not having your head, uh, putting your head above water. But it's, it is so crucial if you want more and if you feel like you're stuck in a certain period, you have to take a step back and go, right, where am I taking this?

Yeah, definitely. But I'm also like, I'm not saying that the, like you said before, the US is the silver bullet that's going to fix everything for you. Let's make a US team in all businesses because it doesn't work that way. But it's understanding that, okay, yes, you are risking, you know, what you've built over the last few years by heavily investing into a new space. But as long as you have clear direction and know exactly how it's gonna work and have it planned, have it set out, and don't be afraid of taking that risk. Like we've gone now, we are a team of 5 people in the US in the space of, you know, will be 8 months now. Just by going, you know what, if we're gonna go for it, we're fully committed. And not on a gamble, you're not winging it. You know, you have plan, you have strategy, you work it out. But actually committing to something, you know, when you have that direct, you know, the clarity of like, okay, we need to move in this space now to, to make us make sure we're moving forward and, and, you know, have momentum and have direction in what we're doing.

So let's just talk about that for a sec because I know that's been— you're, you're very much in the, in the trenches with it now, but it seems like you're feeling really excited about it. Yeah, let's sort of cut through the the noise of it, as I've said to you, because we've spoken about it before, I think some people may perceive it as a silver bullet. I think just the simplest way, and I may have said this before, is just to— the way to describe it is it's just as hard, but the financial return might be 3 times, 5 times maybe what you've been used to in the UK.

Yeah.

But your core business has always been UK, right? What, what were some of the first actions to like get to the point of actually starting? Like, just talk to us a bit about that. What were some of the first things that you did in place? Did you start picking up the phones and maybe leverage existing relationships in the UK that had a presence in the US? How did you initially go from, we want to be doing the US, to like, action?

Yeah, so we, we tried it that way. I'm not saying it's the right way of doing things, but we, we started leveraging relationships with clients we had out there. But when you don't have the market knowledge, you don't really— you're not really immersed into it. The value-add really isn't as, you know, isn't there. And it, it's one way I'm sure that if you mapped it properly and worked and spent a long time, you could, you could do it that way. But we realized that our clients were going, hold on, you are nailing everything in the UK. We've given you a job in the US and you're not really shortlisting with the same quality and caliber that you are here. And then it starts to, you know, and, and all of a sudden then we are kind of off brand where it's, we, we are not trying to be everyone to everything. We are, you know, exceptional at one thing and that's it, what we do. So when we weren't able to do that, it was a really difficult thing. So I looked at it and went, actually, the best thing I could do for this business is hire the best person I can find who knows their market, who is unbelievable, who knows exactly what they want, fits into our brand, and then just bring them in. Yeah, it's going to cost you.

Do you want it to be the same market that you used in the UK?

No, coincidental that it actually is. And it's one where, to be fair, me and you spoke and I was having no luck with Rec2Rec, nothing going well. And then you linked me up with the guys at 27. And kind of spoke to them. They come in, I said, look, these are our areas. I do— I can't have someone who's good, I need someone who is like phenomenal. And then that's when they found Hayley that came across. And knowing someone that knows it can educate me on that market, bring me up to speed far quicker than I could learn myself, you know. I think, in my opinion, that's the best way to do it. And then bringing in Alex as well, who he also was in a different space a top performer there too. And then you can start to build the team around it with people without the experience, but not at a massive cost or loss to the UK side of the business.

What's really worked so far then on this journey? I know we're like very much early on, but you've got a whole number of years of experience of working in the UK market. A lot of people I sit down with would say the UK market is like really hard, unsexy to be in these days, saturated. That's how a lot of people are speaking about it, but I've met and sat down with a lot of people this year that are performing well in the UK. Um, what have you seen so far? Like, what have been the things that have really worked so far on this US journey?

Yeah, I think from speaking to— so bringing it back, so our methodology and what we do, so we're, we're headhunters in the very traditional kind of way of doing that. It's not we're headhunters, but we're headhunting via LinkedIn. We are picking up the phone through the switchboard, meeting everyone, kind of arranging callbacks for after work, and we are super phone heavy. That does actually translate over quite well to the US side. So that's allowed us, because I spoke to someone we thought about bringing on recently and she was fantastic, had a load of, you know, load of roles and just couldn't get candidates now because her only methodology was, I'll just, I'll LinkedIn message every one of them and just hope they come back. That direct approach that we have has actually been received quite well and something that was translated across really, really easily. The difficult side is having a US and UK business when you have the UK guys there and they're looking across the room and someone's just done a $35 grand fee and they're going, I've just worked hard for a $5 grander. That's a difficult thing to navigate. But there's been a lot of positive crossover in terms of our style, our methodology, and implementing that into the US.

But the sort of earnings difference, what, has there been other things you've had to learn the hard way? Any like standout things you've had to learn the hard way on building out this US side?

I think just off the top of my head now, it is a far more consultative approach. So, you know, you definitely are a talent partner, not just a, look, we have the best candidates, we'll get someone in. Fortunately, again, that kind of does stem to how we work here. But, you know, there is that, that side where they don't just want you to come on board, send us some CVs in. You can't just spec people in and win work through speccing out great candidates into consultancies, you know, you've really got to get on board, show real value add, you know, agree terms of business before you start working, which you kind of should do here anyway, but a lot of guys don't in the UK side of things. Um, you know, and like one of the difficult things obviously is just time zone differences. That's always a really difficult part is trying to get guys who are willing to work, you know, the late hours, but if the reward's there and you, and you know, you compensate your guys well, you know, people are committed to, to putting the extra, extra hours in.

And did you, did you take like a location focus, or did you just more focus on like skill set? And I don't know, maybe did you focus on a state that you wanted to focus on first, or how have you approached that?

Yeah, so we definitely went more state-focused. I think you can easily spread yourself really thin. Um, so one thing we do with the guys is they, they kind of have their— they work out their niche, they work out, okay, these are the areas. It's not guesswork. It's based off empirical evidence. We use things like Talent Insights on LinkedIn to see, okay, who's hiring, where are they hiring the most, you know, finding, okay, these are the, these are the most sought-after candidates in an area, but also there's a decent enough candidate pool. You don't want to go somewhere that's super candidate short. So great, I can sign 30% terms and, you know, they're paying great money, but there's actually no one there that I can speak to. I think there's a sweet spot to it. So we focused on the Midwest. and focus within the kind of consulting space. So water, wastewater, roadway engineers, you know, where there's, there's a really nice balance of, of workload and also the candidates that, you know, especially passive guys that through our methods we can kind of, you know, persuade to have conversations, end up, you know, getting them nice chunky pay rises, getting them better opportunities, getting them the next step up. And, you know, that, that, that's the way we've kind of focused it.

You've got the 2-week notice period, which is great. Yeah, rather than What's typical in UK in your market? 3 months?

Really, for a low-level guy, a month, and up to like a kind of mid, you know, somewhere 6, 7 years in. But after that, yeah, 3 and 6, which is a different game. It's crazy.

And also cash flow, perm-wise, different.

Yeah. And I know we spoke about kind of getting paid and not like— I feel like the cultural difference is there. Like, we've had no issues. People are paying within sort of 7 days of invoicing, you know, which is great. It helps for for running the business.

Um, you know, just on this then, just out of interest, any— did you have any limiting beliefs around you guys and girls in Liverpool Street calling water engineers in Midwest? How's that gonna go? Yeah, is that gonna— how they're gonna react to that? Did you have any of that? And then how's that played out? Because I think sometimes that can be something that people assume is gonna people are going to react in a certain way, or—

Yeah, I kind of, I originally thought that. I was like, why are they going to want to speak to us? And are they think we're just some sort of PPI scam and stuff like that? But weirdly goes the other way, you know. So at the start, when, when Hayley first came on board, one of the commitments I had to her was I will work and I would do these days with you, and I'll be next to you, you know, running the desk with you to support. So I was just, yeah, hammering the phone, speaking to people, and you actually Like a few of them are like, I love, I love speaking to English guys. Their accent's so cool. And of course British, don't they? Like, I love British accents. Um, and yeah, it, it, I remember the first deal that I ended up doing on the US side, it kind of, it was so strange that, you know, it's the first time I'd placed someone with a client, hadn't met either of them in person, didn't really know the, the actual geographic locations too well, you know, and it just thinks it's such a strange thing how distant you can be. But yeah, it's, it's, I think they— as long as you actually know what you're talking about and you, you aren't just trying to wing it the whole time, like you actually study your market, really put time and effort into learning it, they're always going to respect you for, for, you know, adding some value to, I guess, their journey.

How long did it take to do that first placement?

I think it's about 6 weeks.

Okay.

Yeah, so it wasn't super quick. We had obviously had certain covenances to navigate. So it was with a new client, brand new, working with, yeah, candidates we hadn't worked with previously. Um, but fortunately—

6 weeks, right though?

Yeah, yeah, from the start. Yeah.

And then what about— because I think people are interested in this, like from a business standpoint, what did you have to get set up? Is there much there? Because I think sometimes people can overcomplicate that. Did you have to change your terms that much? Did you have to set up a US bank account?

Yeah, so Yeah, full new terms, you know, dedicated ones for the US, new US website, new domains, you know, setting up.

News.co.uk..co.uk..com.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So all.com stuff. Obviously US phone numbers, US bank account, you have to get a broker in place as well to then transfer your money across and convert it. But there are like, there are enough people that do it that are actually happy to help. Especially again, not to kind of get this on again about that, the Jack Salmon thing, but there's a group of guys in there who you know, I speak to a lot of them, a lot of them do US markets in recruitment, you know, and ask them, what should we do this, what do you, what's your advice on that? It was only on the weekend where the hard thing is America's set up really well to stop spam emails, spam texts, all of those sort of things, you know. So you have to have certain things set up from your email perspective to make sure that you're, the stuff you're sending through emails. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, there's ways around it because, you know, as long as you actually aren't doing anything from a spam perspective. But it's things like that that you just, you wouldn't know. And sometimes, you know, reaching out to people that do it, most guys in recruitment are actually quite happy to help. You know, I think there's a, there's a bit of a perception. I probably had it before, which is, you know, especially around networking events, like no one's going to really want to help. But I try helping guys. I helped a guy the other day who was a small startup, had a few questions. I spent, you know, 20 minutes talking to him, giving my perspective. It's not necessarily always going to be right, but you know, there is that, that network out there that you can tap into to get advice on things.

Yeah, be willing to ask for help, for sure.

Yeah, definitely.

So what with— because I know you would have thought about this, like, in this chapter that you're now in, what are— there's a lot of things that you could do, but what are the things that you've really got top of mind that you want to really execute, double down on, really get right, that you think we'll be sitting down in 12, 24 months' time and you're gonna feel happy where the business is at, you feel like it's made progress, you feel like you're continuing to be on this journey, you're really maximizing potential yourself and the business. What are the things that you're really doubling down on or really trying to stay laser-focused on?

Yeah, I think staying true to our identity is, is massive. It's really easy to regress and have, you know, start falling back into old habits that aren't, you know, conducive to wins. So I think maintaining that side of things, you know, we've, we've said to the guys in the mission statement like We are a premium service. We want to be known as that. You know, it's not about doing the most placements. It's about really accessing the talent that other agencies can't get to. Um, holding true to that, you know, keeping that as our core value. Um, now headcount from a positive standpoint, not vanity growth. It's a case where like we're going to be 25 people this time next year, but that's through attracting top talent, not being afraid to invest heavily into bringing on exceptional guys. And really growing the business through, you know, creating these new pillars, which are, you know, different sections within our space, but not through just trying it, testing it. It's like, no, we will identify who's the best person at that and we'll go after them and bring them in, which we're hopefully doing at the moment. We're kind of at latter stages with a guy who's top biller at his current firm, you know, real high performer. And he's come across, he's seen the vision, he knows the investment I'm going to put into him. And we can just keep replicating that. It should be No touchwood, you know, it should move in the direction. There's no reason why it wouldn't.

Two things. One, I think you said it earlier, but again, we've spoken about it a lot, but it, it really is crucial. One thing, having clarity and saying what you're about, but then the most important thing is then when people join that journey and that's what they've been sold, is then making sure your actions match up with that.

Oh, definitely.

Yeah, that's, that's so like that, because that's very quickly how you can then lose these people And before you know it, your reputation is, yeah, they promise a good game, but actually they don't follow through. So I just wanted to highlight that because, yeah, one, having clarity, but then your actions got to match up with it. And then two, it's just come up recently in some conversations, so interested to get your thoughts on it. How asking people for clear evidence of what they build— you just said they're top performer— what we're saying, like, because it sounds like you've been on a bit of a journey on the types of people that you've hired. Is that something you ask for? Is it something you expect?

We've done it since day one. We've always said, yeah, proof of billing. So you need to, like, if you— there's no reason why any recruiter shouldn't be able to prove what they built.

How are they proving that then?

So for example, like, you know, most guys use CRM. Like, if you're working in a good recruitment business, you should have a decent CRM. You should be able to track exactly what you've placed, have your tracker. You know, there's no reason— like, also, guys, I know when I've interviewed previously in the past, years ago, It was, this is what I build, here's my payslips that correlate back to that.

You asked for that?

Yeah, why would you not? It's just something that's—

no, no, I'm glad you're sharing that. Yeah, because I think sometimes I've literally had a conversation not too long ago where it's like, how do people feel about asking for like payslips or proof of billings? And I think it's something you absolutely have to think about if you're—

you're—

because it's an up— it's like, it's a higher cost from day one, isn't it?

It's an upfront cost. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But I think we've had like also we've had guys as well A few years ago, a guy was going to come in and build a new division out. Met him, fantastic, like spoke a great game, was really keen on joining us. And I was like, look, just so you know, like this offer is conditional to us seeing that you've built the numbers that you said. And then he went quiet for 3, 4 days. And then I sort of said like, also, I still really want you to be part of the business because I bought into you as a person. Just be honest and open with what you've actually built and we can, we can factor in where you would fit in based on that. And then it was, oh no, sorry, actually I've decided to stay where I am. And you think, interesting, it's fine, but that saved us a massive headache, you know.

And like, really, would you hire someone if they lied about it? Surely not.

Probably not, no.

Surely not.

No, no, especially not for that level position.

Is it that stage then? What, like, if they're, if they're trying to make things look in a certain way, then what's going to happen when they're in the business?

Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, it depends what level they come in at. We've also, it's like candidates we deal with now, you know, how much you want, everyone inflates what their salary is, you know, people are always trying to maximize it. But yeah, I think that's an integral part of it. If you're, you know, if you want to make sure you've got someone who is that level, why would they have an issue approving it?

So what have you ended up typically asking that once you've said you're going to offer?

Yeah, it'd be at that stage. Yeah, it'd be prior to an offer going out. So like if we're dealing like when Hayley came in, it was okay, second stage, went through everything fantastic, just agent Can you double-check that, you know, these are there? And can you just send across the ones that match up to it? Yeah, yeah.

I think that would be a good insight for people because again, for people that are in their sort of ecosystem, don't maybe have a network that it sounds like you've built, they may think like, oh, maybe that might be stepping over the line. But I think it's pretty crucial if you're—

it's massive, yeah—

starting this journey on hiring the experience piece. And just on this, I know we've ended up focusing on it, but I think it's helpful for people Anything else that you've— sounds like you've had that from day one, but anything else that you've had to learn the hard way that has really increased your chances, bar partnering with the right, right partner, but anything in your process that has really helped you have clarity on really understanding what this person is about versus not? Because I think sometimes there can be a bit of a message out there on don't hire experienced people because then they're not— I can't mold them, or doesn't work. Obviously that's just not true.

Yeah.

But anything else you got in your process that protects you from really maybe having a bad experience?

Higher, I think. No, looking at the past things, mistakes we've made, we, we've wanted people to work more than they actually should do. And that could be down to like, we're just so busy, we need to hire someone good. Or, you know, you look for every reason why this is going to be a good hire. Um, But then we're starting to notice certain things, you know, it's— and there's no, like, we're not hard and fast that you need this or you don't need that, or you have to have this or that. But sometimes things were coming up, like, people with a real clear defined why is massive. And very often people who, you know, have a— I think some of our best performers are people who have grown up in environments where, you know, they weren't super supported, even though they had great family lives, and they want to now give back to their own family, you know, whether it's their parents or create something for themselves. I think there's there's always that. But then at the same time, I've hired people who have come from fantastic families and, and, you know, have been very fortunate in their life, and then they still have a massive amount of hunger for it. So, you know, I think you'll always get a sense of what someone's like when you sit down with them, when you see the whites of their eyes and you really understand, okay, you can, you can feel it. Are they genuinely passionate about adding value, also passionate about joining this business and learning and developing in that side? You know, it's really hard to put your finger on it without, you know, that, you know, I think it's mad. We went through a stage where people were hiring people over Teams interviews, never really sitting down with them.

Like, well, you did that.

No, I never— I had clients who would go that way. Yeah, just do a Teams. Yeah, they're great, we'll hire them, work remote for a few months, then come in. It's like crazy.

Do you do, uh, like back-channel referencing for experienced hires? So like, obviously you're not going to reference the company they're currently working at, but maybe previous companies. Would you try and do that?

Yeah, yeah, we'll try like off-record ones as well. I mean, it's a small industry, so you'll know someone who knows someone, but you'll try and do what you can to get at least some—

have some sort of conversation that might help give you some clarity on someone.

Yeah, definitely. Because I mean, again, like, people, it's, you know, people make up some interesting parts that they've worked on.

Because it isn't as easy as, right, I'll hire this friend, okay, bill her, and then drops to the bottom line. It's, it's not, it doesn't work like that, definitely.

And also, like, certain things as well. We, we saw a guy the other day, really, really good biller, but then it broke down. Actually, nearly all of his clients were his director's clients that he just serviced. So as soon as he comes over, he's not bringing any of those with him. You know, we worked out actually he was doing, yeah, 280, 300, but really he was doing about 85, 90 of his own, which doesn't mean that he couldn't, like, you know, he couldn't generate and grow over time, but all of a sudden it's a very different guy you're hiring.

Yeah, I think they're, they're the, they're the lessons that people would have learned the hard way. Yeah, they would have said, I've just hired this 300K biller, and then actually— but it sounds like you've got that process pretty tight, or like you're asking good things and you're getting them to explain, okay, talk me through your client base, how did you win them? And that is often the lesson, is it's in that process and really getting people to articulate how they've won their clients. Talk me through how you've won your best account, because then it's gonna be a lot more harder to then— like, it's going to be a lot more harder for that not to come later down the line in terms of they join your business and then you're like, shit, actually, yeah, they inherit all their accounts.

Yeah, I mean, we are like, we're really picky now. Like, we interview a lot of people that we're just like, no, not, not right for us. And it is through that, you know, like Dom's a master at it. He'll sit down, okay, break down your process for me, okay, what's your BD strategy, how have you won these accounts, okay, how would you go and win new accounts moving forward. We really have a clear idea of what that person's going to do for the first sort of 6 weeks, really, before we've even hired them.

That's great.

You know, which is super helpful.

Versus it starting and going, right, let's talk about these first 6 weeks, what we're going to do.

Yeah, because obviously we've kissed a few frogs over our time and found out the wrong way that, you know, it can go that way. But then also, you know, like, if anyone that we bring in, the amount of commitment, effort, time we'll put into them, you know, you want to make sure that it's someone that actually is going to benefit from that rather than You know, there aren't that many chances in the world, but you know, you still want to make sure that you're hiring someone who's gonna—

I think also that process will show to the right person, like, you know what, actually these guys are serious. Because these people would have had same interviews where they aren't— they're not asked those things, or they just ask like, how much did you build last year? And maybe like surface level questions. But I think that also showcases that you guys are diligent, you want to make sure you bring on the right person as well.

Yeah. And also they want to feel like they've proven themselves. They've, you know, they've done well and we, okay, now this firm wants to hire me. Not that we should have people feeling that way, but then I guess on the flip to that is when we bring someone in who's doing a new desk, we'll always have 6-month, 1-year, 3-year, 5-year plan. This is how it's going to look. Now we know that it's not always going to go that way, but we give clear clarity direction. This is how we're going to support you over these you know, of these time frame periods, and this is where we want to get to at the end of it.

And I ended up focusing on it, but like, it— this really is such a big part of why me and you'll be sitting down in 24 months' time and you're going, Hishem, this is what we've done. Yeah, having these great people in the business. And we're not always going to be able to like grow our own talent and grow that internally, part of the recipe. Not always, but a big part of the recipe for a lot of companies is going to be we've got the best people. And that's why I think it's just important just to hear how you're approaching it, because clearly you've like had to learn the hard way these things, but clearly you've got some really watertight processes here that maybe, you know, 24 months ago if I sat down with you, maybe it didn't really look like this.

Yeah, no, 100%. Yeah, so it's been a game changer, but then also like The people, the best guys we've got, they should still be at their last firms, but they weren't treated well, they weren't looked after. Like, we also, we really look after our guys. Like, they're paid really, really well. Comms is really high compared to a lot of, you know, the people we're working with. But then, like, things are unlimited annual leave for the guys, you know, it's consistent perks, making them feel appreciated. Like, being there as well, I think it's a big thing. Like, making sure the guys feel heard, that Okay, I'm not getting the support I need. How can I reach out to this manager or that manager to make sure that I'm actually developing at the right rate? Like, it's very easy to not do that. And I think a lot of recruitment firms get complacent with the guys they've got and try and split their desk, or, you know, okay, let me just increase your threshold now by X amount so I'm making more of your money. It's, you know, you've got to look like, ultimately, without the guys you've got, your business is, is not there. So you've really got to make sure you look after them.

And then what you're gonna have to be really disciplined with now is if they're great but don't match up with the culture, you can't bring them in just because of the numbers or revenue they could potentially bring in.

Yeah, which is a hard thing to do, but it's like, yeah, I'm trying to remember who it was. I saw it at one of the recruitment expos, and he was like, yeah, we have like a no dickhead policy. Like, no matter how good you are If you are just someone who's sapping energy out the room and you aren't adding to the value for everyone else, we made that super clear as well. Like we said, if I had a £200 grand a year biller who was just causing absolute chaos and is a nightmare, or had £150 grand a year biller but was giving everyone else 10% increases by being supportive, giving their time, that guy's worth so much more than the other to me. And really being prepared to not, you know, not hire those kind of people is a difficult thing, but You're just gonna stay disciplined. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Easier said than done though.

So for anyone, for anyone listening that might find themselves— I know you're still very much in the trenches, feel like there's still loads of building to do, but still you've, you're in, you're very much in this like next chapter. Like, you know, getting to know you for a little while now, clearly you've got real clarity in where you want to go, where you're taking things. So to round this out, like, for anyone that might be listening to this who feels like they've maybe been back and forth with, trying to maybe get to the point of where you're at, where they've got clarity, they're growing something, and that's what they want, but they're maybe stuck in that period of it's me and a couple of people, I'm struggling to really see beyond the next 90 days and where we're going, or making the right decision to help me get there. Like, what would be like the advice that you'd leave them? Because it's ultimately where you were maybe going into that COVID period, or maybe a bit after. Like, what is it that you would leave with them that might help them take that one piece of action that might help them take that step closer to getting to ultimately, hopefully, a business or a situation when they feel more happy with where it's going versus looking around and going, am I actually enjoying this? Am I actually happy?

Yeah, I think you'll only ever be truly happy if it's, if it's, if it's what you want. Don't try and set up for other people to, to think it's positive or trying to impress you know, X, Y, and Z people. I think sitting back, reflecting on actually the direction you want to go in, and then ultimately it's your business. You're the one that's, you know, you're putting your neck on the line here from a financial perspective, from a, you know, a reputational perspective. So do it how you want to do it. And you know, the right people will come on that journey with you, but you will feel so much more fulfilled because it's exactly what you set out to achieve. And you know, you, it's like we said, it's easy to lose that, but really aligns, okay, this is where I'm going. This is where we're going to go as a business. And if people want to join me, then it's going to be an amazing ride. If not, well, we're going anyway and I'm sure they miss out. So clarity, direction, and just going after exactly what you want.

Yeah, that really is. You may have heard it before, but maybe it's just a reminder, like it is absolutely critical. Connor, it's been an absolute pleasure.

Yeah, it's been great fun. That flew by actually. That's been great. Thank you.