What I Wish I Knew Before Scaling My Recruitment Business with Michael Wigington

Michael, welcome to the pod.

Great to be here.

Uh, known each other for a little while. You was one of my first personal running clients when I was doing personal running training. So over the, the sort of last few years, I've always been interested to see what you guys have been up to. You never know what the actual truth is when you see things on LinkedIn, but outside looking in, it looks like you've continued to go on this really great growth journey. I know there's been plenty of lessons along the way which we're going to get into today, but part of the reason why I reached out to you as well is I haven't had a whole bunch of like healthcare recruitment entrepreneurs on, on the pod. No real reason, I just know that I feel like your world is, it is, it is unique, I feel like, and it is definitely different. So my network hasn't ended up being really strong in that area, if I'm honest. So I know there'll be a lot of people out there listening to this that will really appreciate you sharing everything that you've learned in this industry. But also there'll be a ton of things here that people can learn on in the healthcare space that will apply. So let's give everyone the career highlight reel of the business, and then you let me know if I get any of this wrong. Okay. So just to give everyone some immediate context, but after a number of years working in recruitment, Um, you started Kams in 2017, um, and you've always been like contract first, really, right?

Yep.

So in terms of— to break down the, the milestones here, so August, um, '17, we've got GP 300K, contract numbers around 20, and it was just you.

Yep.

We then got, uh, the following year, 700K GP, headcount around 6, contract numbers up to around 40. Then we've got August '19, GP 1.6 million, headcount around 10, moved to your Hatton Wick offices, which I think that's where I came to essentially.

Yep.

Contract numbers then around 80. Then in 2020, we got to 2.5 million GP, headcount 16, contract numbers around 150. '21, 4.5 million GP, uh, contract numbers around 200, headcount around 20, moved to the bigger office that you've— we're always looking at that is across the road. 2022, GP 5.7 million, contract numbers around 275, headcount 32. Uh, last financial year, GP 7.1 million, headcount 48, contract numbers 350. And that's where we got your peak EBITDA to 2.9 million, right?

Correct. Yeah.

How does that hear— how does that feel like hearing all that? Because like, I'm sure a lot of it feels like a blur, but they're the quote-unquote just the, the important financial bits. But how do you— like, there's been a steady growth, it seems.

Yeah, I think mixed feelings. I think I'm quite bad at looking back and reflecting. I'm terrible for always looking at what's next, what more can I be doing. And I think it's good, like, it feels good. I like— we've, we've come a long way, we've achieved a lot, but I still think there's so much more to do.

It's always like—

so I'm quite bad for that. And equally, you can't rest on it, right? So I've been very lucky. You just you just said them numbers and we've been on a great trajectory, but the last year has actually been probably our toughest since. So I can't really be celebrating those numbers when we've just had a rough 6 months to a year. So for me, it's about how can we get back to that? What can we be doing? And yeah, it's good, but the natural part of me is how can we be doing better?

How can we do better? Yeah, no, I know. Most business owners will relate to that. And I appreciate you being honest around that because I think the other bits that you just put on here was headcount is around 55, contract numbers is about 320. So that's been like the first ever dip really because it's just been going in the upward trajectory, right? Um, and then your, your world is like children's adolescent mental health. That's like your world, right?

Yep.

And then the other bit to share, I don't know if this has always been the case, but You shared with me that typically a lot of your business has basically been 70% NHS, public sector, 30% private.

Yep.

Is that fair?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, so the way that we're going to do this then is we'll start by— let's sort of dig into like the early days and talk about that, because I know we had a period where you wasn't on the NHS frameworks, and that comes with its own challenges. And then we'll get into the sort of growth journey, because again I know there was some challenges that you had to really face head-on when it comes to like finances, getting paid, owed money, um, also challenges around you having a big goal around being less like quite, quite involved and like driving the business forward without being the person that MD seat. There are some lessons there, so we'll sort of COVID all these things, right? But what, what sticks out to you at the beginning, the, the beginning stage, like I think when we prepared for this, and I do tend to hear this, that you sort of shared with me that almost what really helped was just this sort of naivety around like, I'm just going to make this work, I'm going to crack on. Because everyone that I have spoken to that recruits in your space has always said to me, if you're not on the frameworks, that's extremely difficult. So like, what sticks out to you on, and, and that early days, in terms of that early period where it was just you smashing it out trying to make things happen. Like, how would you describe that period?

Yeah, just for some context, I guess I'd done— prior to setting up, I'd done 2 years in another recruitment agency, and I was— I'd set up the healthcare division. There was no one else that had done healthcare before. So again, I'd literally previously— I'd had 2 years prior of building something from complete scratch in another business. So I guess there were similarities to when I was doing it. On my own again. I think I went into it like, like you said, I had no preconceived ideas of what worked and what didn't work at the time, and I knew no different. So for me, I just have to keep knocking on doors until— so, you know, I needed, I needed that opportunity when I first got into recruitment, and I, I had, I had to make it work for me. I flunked and, and got rejected by so many other recruitment roles before I finally got given that opportunity. So I needed to make that space work, and I was able to make it work. So then setting up, setting up on my own, I'd had the confidence to know actually I hadn't had a big brand behind me in the, in the agency I'd just come from, and I literally, I was trying to carbon copy what I'd done 2 years prior basically, and to do it again for myself. So Yeah, I think it was just like being relentless. Like just keep trying to talk to people until they let me in. And I'd learned the art of being able to make it work off framework. There was a bit of a knack to it. It was very difficult. And for most people, they wouldn't have even sort of tried to do what I did. But it was in the NHS, there's a way you can educate people help them understand the process on how to go off framework. And I'd learned how to do that, and it was— it was— I'd have to work on roles that were sort of services were at real clinical risk. Like, I was the bottom of the pile to get to work on any jobs, but there was a process, and it was— it was almost empowering managers and teaching them that processes and what they'd have to go and do to allow me to work on the role. So, um, And I'd got good at that, to be fair. And I don't think it is as easy now as it was then. I think 8 years ago, 6 years ago when I was doing it, it was renowned. There was a lot more off-framework spend in the NHS. I think it's still doable.

But it's even more hard now.

Yeah, but literally you need directors or CEOs inside a big NHS organisation to sign off that. And Yeah, there's, you know, if you're going in the same way everyone else is going in, temporary staffing services are trained to say no to you, to keep off-framework spend out. So it was really difficult, but I also think learning that trade and being able to make it work in that market was actually the best building blocks for what came after. Because if you could make it work in that tough space when you're on framework, is, you know, the shackles are off. Yeah, you know, it was a lot more easy to— you didn't have, you didn't have the same levels of rejection essentially. So, um, yeah, I think it was a great learning experience. To try and do it again now, I don't even know if I'd want to try, but, um, yeah, it was, it was good. And yeah, I learned a lot.

So let's break down some bits there. So for anyone that doesn't understand, like, what the framework piece, like, just explain that for someone that might not know what that is, just, just to make that really clear. So from my basic understanding, if I work, if I have a healthcare recruitment business fed— I guess it might depend, and might depend on where I focus, but there's a good chance that I'm going to be doing placements in the public sector potentially, but it wouldn't be just that. But if I was, then for me to work at NHS, I have to be on some sort of approved supplier list.

Yeah. So there's two, there's two big NHS common frameworks, right? And these are like, it's like the Olympics. They come around every 4 years. So you've got, you've got to get onto them at the right time in. And I can talk you through how and what people do to get on those, right? HTE is Health Trust Europe is one of the big ones. And the other one now is called CPP. So they're the two biggest ones that the NHS like. And then like you say, you have to time that cycle. So that you'll get, like, it comes out for tender, you have to tender, and normally they want to see a background in supplying some kind of NHS or supplying some kind of staff to even get on it. So it is really difficult. It doesn't encourage new business to get onto it. If you're not on it, there is an opportunity to subcontract through framework agencies as well, but it's tough because margins are difficult in the NHS.

So But what essentially is it? Is it that, like an approved supplier list?

It's a contract. And basically, once you're on it, you are subject to working to certain rules and you get audited as well, which is important in the NHS. Because of what happens is otherwise, if you've got all these off-framework agencies supplying into the NHS, who's actually checking? The NHS trust. So then it's on them to check your staff's compliance, to make sure your nurse has the right mandatory trainings, et cetera. Whereas if you are subject to a framework, framework do like regulatory audits and making sure that's safe. And then there you've got to report margins, report spend. So it's basically a way of bringing regulation to the staffing industry inside the NHS. And these are huge organisations that spend huge amounts of money. And I think the idea was, and I've heard stories about 15 years ago, 20 years ago where it was Wild West.

No frameworks.

No, I think there were something, but I think they were in and out. Not people didn't use them as much and And the stories that you hear from sort of the, the old guard is just everyone, you could call up any shift manager, she could work with any agency she wants, charge whatever. And I think the NHS was bleeding money left, right, and center. So I think it's a, it's been a good thing. And there was stereotypically, there were some agencies with a very, very bad name that, that would do crazy things like they'd send nurses to go and wait in car parks, just say no to every other agency. And charge £100 an hour for shifts and be that last minute. So I get why they're brought in and they are important, but equally starting out without being on them is very difficult.

So you wasn't on them for 3 years?

So for 2 years in my old company, I literally just got on the framework and then I went and set up on my own, which is kind of mad in itself because you think I've been getting told no for 2 years before I did that. And then In my new company, I timed it like the cycle all horribly wrong, and then I had to go back to being off framework in the new business. And then I think for the first 2 years, I think we were off framework. And I speak to sort of big players and, and, uh, other guys that are sort of owners of the larger corporates, and they just couldn't— they used to see some of what we were doing and just couldn't believe we were making it work the way we were making it work.

So, so that like, because there might be some things that people can take from this then on. I know you said that it'd probably be even harder now compared to when you started, but I think some of the things that you shared with me when we prepared for this was what that meant that you had to do was really form relationships with like people with decision power, um, and buying power within the sort of NHS environment really. Whereas if you was on the framework then you wouldn't have had to do that as much because you've been, uh, you've got everything in check so you can speak to maybe— I don't know who you normally speak to, but like, let's say, yeah, a hiring manager that can say, yeah, Michael, we have to give you that, uh, opportunity or whatever. Was that the thing that, looking back, that forced you to do, which then, like you said, ended up being a solid building block in the future? Like, just tell us a bit about, like, how you had to sort of, quote unquote, get around it and what things worked, I guess.

Yeah, I think you built your contact in inside the NHS and for example, you'd get a service manager who would be in charge of needing nurses for a community mental health team, for example, right? I would have to say to them, because the first thing, are you on Framework? No, don't want to work with you.

Okay, that's literally the first thing.

That's the first thing that everyone— and it was, it was, it was like very, very difficult. So then you'd say, okay, so what happens if a Framework agency hasn't filled this in like 16 weeks? Like, what is the risk to your service at the moment? Oh, you know, I've had the job out for 20 weeks, still not getting people give me the right candidate. Okay, do you know there's a process you can follow if you take this to your director and tell them, look, my— I've got young people in my service waiting 2 years to get, to get an appointment at the moment. This is like risky for young people, these have got mental health problems. Do you know that there's a process you can follow to escalate that? And actually, like, there is a, there is a process, but it needs a signature from someone very high up. Oh, not sure. And then again, you're You're going back, okay, it's been 32 weeks now, you've still got that same problem. You know, everyone else in your service is having to work extra hard because you don't have the staff. And it's about getting them, and it's finding the managers that are actually got a bit of weight about them as well, not afraid to sort of talk to the establishment and say, actually, no, this is not safe for the young people. We need staff, like, this is not cool. And it's finding those people and you get them relationships, getting the right trust. We made it work, we did. We were working with a lot of the big NHS trusts in the country and I think you only need, for us, we needed 3 or 4 really big ones to buy into us and get those relationships at a senior level in it and it tided us over until we got the framework and equally it helped us because then we had a track record when we went to get on the framework to say, we're supplying all these hours, and it helped us get on the frameworks.

So listening to that then, like, if I'm in a position where, yeah, maybe I'm in an environment where we do work in the private space, but we're trying to get to the point where we know maybe next year— I know it was quite recent because one of our customers, like, submitted— I don't know how long was it? Not too long.

One got awarded about 6 months ago, or about between about a year, 6 months ago.

Okay, yeah, so yeah, so like I might be an environment right now where we're like leading up to that, and like you said, it's going to help if you've got a track record of doing some off-framework stuff in the public sector. How did you— I really like that, it's really smart the way that you did it, because basically they said no, but then what you did was then sort of actually educated them on like, okay, well, this is how we can do it if this is a real problem. So it sounds like you wasn't like selling anything really, you was just actually educating them on like, this is how you do it, so they didn't have to think that or figure that out themselves. How, how did you learn about that piece, I guess, is what people would be interested in. Was that just speaking to people? And like, when you, when you have gone off work, how's it worked in the past? Was it just being curious and speaking to people? Then you've then used that information to be like, well, this is how we can work with you if this is a real issue and you're still in the same spot. To a week from now? Because it's the educational piece that I got from that.

Yeah, yeah. I think I was always lucky. That was my— probably my biggest strength was curiosity. I was genuinely passionate about the sector. It resonated with me. I had challenges as a teenager, um, been through mental health struggles. I like was passionate about the work that the clinicians were doing, so the candidates I was placing. But equally, on the other side of that, I was— so again, sorry, it's just taking you back. So when I started in recruitment there was no one that had done mental health either, right? So we were, we were, my director at the time was, had a big education desk and, and it was like, here's Google, go and learn this mental health stuff. One of the early things we come across was NHS Jobs. There's a job website that all permanent vacancies for NHS jobs go onto this, go onto this website essentially. And they'd have the vacancy and you'd have often the hiring manager's name, number, contact number. So I just started literally, that's how I learnt the sector. And I was just going through them list of jobs, calling through the service managers, and it was just relentless conversations, being super, super curious, genuinely trying to understand their pain points, right? Because if I'm honest, in healthcare, like, people don't want a salesy, salesy person. And I don't think in general do people love salesy, salesy recruiters anyway, and that's never really been our style. It is really to try and understand, empathise, get to know pain points, and then try and find solutions for them. And I think that was always, always the play. And I think through that, I, you know, face-to-face meetings, you get to learn more and more about the sector. And as soon as I, I kind of understood the process and how the approval came about and met people a bit more high up in the NHS, I'd get to learn all that. And then it was just, yeah, trying to emulate that, replicate that. But it was, I'm not gonna lie, like for your average person, I don't know if they would have been able to do it. Or if I'd worked at a big corporate or another on-framework agency prior, I don't think there was ever a chance I was gonna be able to do the off-framework. Because once you'd had a taste of on-framework, you'd be like, this is like, everyone says yes to you. This is a lot easier, right? So you wouldn't want to go and try the off framework after doing it. But I think because of my naivety, not knowing any different, needing to make it work, it was just— there was no option.

Yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing that because, yeah, I guess, yes, not going to be for everyone, but that, that previous context probably really helped you then when you then started on your own because, you know, you knew what to expect. You knew what to expect. But I think the lesson there for people is if an environment where like, I guess don't just like take no and that be absolute, right? There's going to be information you can get, there's going to be people that you can speak to, and there's always going to be opportunities. Um, what, what sort of timeline then did it take for you to start building some traction? Because I know in the sort of first 3 years, as you start to get some traction, you then found yourself with like a 10-person office, these types of things. But then I know things got more challenging. So like, what do you sort of remember, like rough timelines of like when you started to get these opportunities, start getting some runners out?

Yeah, yeah. So from my bedroom, I built it to about 20 contractors, and I was making some decent money. Uh, no, it was quite lovely. No overheads.

Um, how was you financing that?

So I'd, I went and did the rounds. I spoke to different investors at the time and was very, very, very close to giving away like a majority shareholding to an investor. And most people, I think out of everyone I spoke to, everyone wanted to back me basically. And someone else introduced me to a guy called Stuart Roberts, TBOSS, Total Back Office Solutions. They had, that was the company at the time. and I met with him and he's, I had no clue about invoice finance, how to finance a recruitment company. It was completely new to me. And he was like, Mike, like there's potential. I can give you an intro to NatWest Bank at the time. We might be able to do something where, where we can provide an invoicing discounting facility where, where essentially when a client pays you, NatWest will pay you on day one, like when you raise that invoice and that gives you time to pay the contractors and they'll cover that money until the client pays you back. And it's like obviously really, really good facility. And I was like, yeah, like that can work actually. That can solve all my problems. And I would, best thing I ever did in hindsight, I think was not going down the investor route because obviously things have, you know, maybe it might have been great, but I think to not have full control over your business and I might have been steered in a different direction and I wouldn't have been able to, you know, I wouldn't— I don't know how much I could say no to that if they wanted to push me in a different direction or go after different markets. So in hindsight, I think it was brilliant, worked really well. Um, so yeah, that's how I— yeah, that's how I find it.

I mean, yes, like, it's so easy to give away, and I learned this, like, it's so easy to give away parts of your business at the early stages because it doesn't really mean it's not worth as much, is it? Like, I'm sure you back yourself and you're confident, but the idea of giving away 50% of your business now, yeah, that'd be worth— that's gonna feel a lot different, isn't it?

Yeah. Well, I just remember at the start, I just remember there was a guy, he had offices on the— I think it was the 23rd floor of the Shard, right? And I went up there, right? And I was like, oh, just for the offices and the view of the Shard, I was ready to give him it all. And, uh, luckily I didn't, but that nearly sold me.

Fair. So, okay, so I had like, yeah, one of the sort of financial services to support in terms of the the contractors that you won and then the placing and the money in terms of funding, you weren't self-funding it because that would be, that would have been very difficult, right?

Yeah, so I didn't have a lot of money in my bank account. I think I left my old company with about £5,000 in my bank account. I cheated a little bit, if I'm honest. So my mum was a head teacher at the time and she just joined a new school and I'd gone a bit off track and just placed 3 teaching assistants in her school. And I think that helped me keep the lights on like really early on because I didn't have a lot of money. Um, so that tied me over a little bit. Um, so how long did it take until things started ramping up? So, so yeah, so I got my first 3 placements out, and then it was funny, I still remember the client meeting now, and I've met him about a year before, but I didn't, I, I didn't have no, no way I could help him at the time, and he didn't have no roles for me. And he, and I, I still remember it now, it's Dave Abbott, this guy named, he was like a hospital director for a private, private hospital. And I remember leaving that meeting the year before with like butterflies in my stomach, you know, when you just connect with someone on a, like, a great scale. And I was thinking, like, I don't know, it's weird, you believe in fate and stuff. I come out of that meeting like, I'm gonna work with that guy one day. And then was actually struggling a bit from home. I still hadn't sort of, I was trying to honor my covenant at the time. Like, genuinely, I had a lot of respect for my old bosses as well. So I didn't want to go after everything. So I was 'Cause I was being respectful. And then I think it was about 6, 7 months in, this Dave Abbott called me and he was like, Mike, I've just taken over a hospital. It's gonna get shut down. I need like 12 nurses. I don't care what you charge me. I just need great quality nurses like now. Otherwise this hospital's getting shut down. And I was like, this is, this is it. This is the calling, right? So I think I was working like 13-hour days. 4 days straight and I got a core team of contractors in. I think it was 10 or 12 nurses and they're all lovely. I could tell you the name of them off the top of my head, but they will never, Dave will never know that that opportunity literally helped me build the foundations. And then those nurses stayed with me for like 2, 3 years in that same hospital. And that paved the foundations for, got me to my, you know, like, I don't know, So I've probably a steady £5,000 a week GP at that point, which then allowed me to go and say, actually, why don't I go and get my first office? Mm-hmm. And at that stage I'd had one of my friends from my old company was like, I'll come with you, I'll do it. And there was a girl Megan who'd joined just before I'd left who looked really good and they were both sort of in my ear. I would come and we'd do it together. And I found this office in South Woodford, which was a nice little 10-person office. And then because I'd had that contractors out, I was like, right, let's go for it. And I did it. And then unfortunately it weren't all plain sailing. So they joined, we got our first compliance officer as well. So there's 4 of us and we were about 3 months in and they, again, they'd come from framework. They'd got their framework.

Yeah.

Because we'd got at the end and even like we, it was so hard. Like the business had no brand. Like even the logo was awful. When I look back at the first logo we had, no one knew who was in the industry. And I think they come into it thinking that we'd be able to make it work. And we, we were again, we weren't getting traction. It was just my, my contractors that were making everything. And now all of a sudden I'm like, well, at the end of the month I've got to pay all these guys. I've got all these new overheads. And like, this is proper eating into like the money that I'd made. And they weren't able to, to make it work. And that was really tough because Dave was like one of my best friends at the time. And he still is like, we're still really close with him. And had to have a, like, it was mutual. I think they felt guilty because they weren't able to get the placements. And we kind of had to have a mutual chat and it was, I had to let them, like, it was mutually kind of parted ways. And then I was on my own, 10-person office, shit. Like, what have I done? I got all this overheads. And I think the contractor numbers dropped a little bit. And then I'm like, have I made the right decision here? Was like really questioning everything. And then, Jay Selby, who's like my number 2 now, we'd been filmed on Don't Tell the Bride like 2 years prior. And when we was getting filmed, like, it was at the stag do, was in Ibiza, and he was like— I was watching him work the room, work the bar staff.

What's that?

Uh, Don't Tell the Bride. You've not seen that? BBC? Well, uh, basically—

oh, they watch them on this stag do or something?

No, someone that you, um, they, the, the groom gets to organize wedding basically, and they don't tell the wife, and the BBC gives them a budget, and it's always like outlandish weddings that they do. So they got married in Ibiza, we got filmed on the stag do, and, uh, yeah, he was just on— he was absolutely on form. I was like, this guy would be good in recruitment. We— I tried to reach out to him a couple of times, and then the timing was never right. And then sort of a couple of months after sort of letting the, the initial team go, brought Jay in, and it was kind of like, that was, that was where where we went, we— I had someone to sort of rub shoulders with, you know. There was two of us in the trenches a little bit, um, and I think Abdul come in as our third hire. And we— yeah, I think it's so— it is so much easier when there's two or three of you like at it together and like you're getting traction and you're making it work. And then all of a sudden you've got them people to bounce off, and we never really looked back from there. It was just, um, that 20 contractors I think Jay got on a little run and got about 10 contractors in after, or in his first year or something.

And was that all off framework as well?

All off framework still at the time. Yeah, we're doing a lot of private work as well back then. We were good. And I think sort of 7, 8 months in, I was then going back to my old clients that worked with me off framework in the old business. And I was like, then we made that work a little bit and we'd had a few clients and yeah, it was just—

Built momentum.

Yeah. And look, it's a bit bittersweet because the market, like, you've got to think, right? You've got— people weren't talking about mental health so much, sort of 6, 7, 8 years, but it was around the time when people were just making more of a noise about it, which rightfully so. And I do think we were perfectly positioned.

Like, timing-wise?

Timing-wise. And I think referrals on NHS services were increasing everywhere.

Which means they needed more nurses, more psychologists, more psychologists.

Yeah, people talking about neurodiversity a lot more. And, um, we were perfectly positioned at that time to really help some services. And, um, there was, there was a couple of recruiters in my space at the time, but none of the big corporates had sort of chosen to double down on that, put a lot of specialists in.

Like, that's all you do, isn't it?

Yeah, like, we do. I've purchased another agency since that does more generic mental health, but, um, That the CAMHS brand, that is like, I want to be niche for that. And that is, yeah, 95% of what we do. We do a bit of adult mental health, but, um, that's our baby. Like, we are the best in the country in that space. And I think I recognized that really early, and I think that was part of what our success has been really, is double, tripling down in that space. And it gives us a genuine unique selling point, you know what I mean? Everyone says a better service, but no, like, we have got— we've put the hours in, we've got the experience, we know the problems, we know the pains better than anyone else. So I think that's helped us.

Yes, it is funny looking back, isn't it? Like, but I think there's a lot to be said around one, like, just you create your own luck. I'm a huge believer in that. Like, if you think of all the things that have led up to that point around getting like the, the timing of like, yeah, the mental health piece rising, all of that. Like, you, you put yourself in that position. I'm a huge believer in that. But I think you are right to— a big part of being successful in recruitment, a big part of the equation is like the industry you're in. I do think sometimes people overlook that. Um, there's a lot that you can control, and I think part of the things that you always want to consider is, am I in the, in the right market? Um, But anything to share around, like, would you have hired those people looking back, like, as early as you did? Is there anything there for maybe people listening that are in the trenches right now with maybe the stuff that you've learned being a more grown-up business owner? Like, do you think you would have waited or got certain things in place before you pulled the trigger on hiring? Because I do think these things you just got to learn the hard way sometimes.

But yeah, I think everyone's different, right? And it depends what you want in life. If you're looking for a balanced, easy life, no stress, then I probably should have stayed as a one-man band in my bedroom, which, um, I could have, you know, and even now sometimes I think, God, I would love to go back to that. Yeah. Um, but, but like I say, I think it's, yeah, it's different for everyone. I personally, you know, I'm, I am built different. From like day 3 in recruitment, I knew I wanted my own recruitment company, right? So And it was— I was learning my craft from that, from that moment. And I was only in recruitment for 2 years. I hadn't really had any great training management. And I, I thought it's better to take the chance now. I don't have mortgage, family, uh, and to see if I can— to see if I can go and make it work then. So I think that was, that was the right thing for me. But on paper, in theory, should I have gone and got 8 9 years probably, but you don't know unless you try, right? I think that there's an element of that. And then I believed— I believe in people, like I'm a big believer in people. And at the time I believed that we could make it work with Dave and the first team I hired. And I didn't go into that thinking we wouldn't make it a success, right? And in hindsight, would I have waited another 3 months? And, you know, I think you don't know how things are going to work out. And I think sometimes you have got to jump in and take a chance, a calculated risk, but you've got to take a chance. And we, we did that. And, and, and then that early team that I hired, I wouldn't change it. And it was very difficult then though, because I couldn't go out and attract talent from other agencies, because you try and bring someone to an interview where it's like just you in the office, and I've only got 2 years of experience in this, they've never worked in the market before. Everyone I was hiring was— I'd even, I'd need some like real personal connection. Or, and, and for that early days, I was given, and I still do give people their first chance in recruitment. My best hires now, I've still, you know, I gave them their first shot in recruitment. So, um, I'm a, I'm a big believer in like, you have to take chances, believe in people, and learn, learn fast. And that's always kind of been my philosophy.

Was the next sort of big milestone then getting on the framework then? Was that— that was like the next sort of big moment.

Yeah, so to talk you through, we, we— so Jay come in, we got them early, early few staff, and we, we did— we hit a lovely little run, and we, we took that South office we had in South Woodford, we grew that to 10, 10 people, and it was like that at 10 people. So, uh, but you can't beat that. I missed that so much, to be honest. And, um, the name was getting out a bit more. We were, we were all off We were still off framework at that point, but I think the framework was coming round. We knew the framework was coming round and we'd made a decision to, well, we started looking at other offices. We were outgrowing it. We were making it work. We had enough billers that were doing sort of 2, 3 grand a week, like the sort of the next layer under me. And again, I think I just got in the groove of actually now we're rolling, you know, I've got ambitions to be the best in this space and why not keep double and tripling down if we're making it successful, if there's a need. If people are working with us, why not keep going? It kind of made, made sense. And we got into this groove, and then we moved, we moved to Hackney Wick, I think. And we'd applied for the Framework, and I remember Framework came, we got the notification, and it was a Monday at like 9:30 in the morning. And I was like, right, we're all finished for the day. I took up some random karaoke bar. I think it was the earliest bar we could find that opened at like 12 in the afternoon. And we just went on a mad run. And that was a turning point because I'd never really had a big experience of even working on Framework at that time. But it was lovely to not get like the level of rejection was a lot different. You actually like, you have the key to the door essentially when you're on Framework. Things are different though. You are subject to a lot more like stricter margins. It's harder to negotiate rates and things like that. But Um, it was good, and I think I was like, yeah, it was, it was great. Like, no more— I think there was times when we were off framework towards the end. Well, I remember there was, there was one time I literally placed like— I had 12 contractors go to start in a service, and I told them we're off framework, off framework, off framework, and they'd all handed in their notice, left their jobs. And then like day before the base was supposed to start— and I'll still speak to the manager now every couple of years, and she apologizes still to me today And, uh, it was like, we just, we just, they just won't let me. And I was like, so what? And so these guys have left their jobs now, they've all got families to feed and everything. I just, in the end, I took the hit and I let them sign up with another agency because I thought I'm playing the long game here, like I'll come back in 6 months. And I did end up getting them sort of a year later. I got the contract and kept the relationship with the client. But it was nice because you always had that worry when we was off off framework. And it was, it was, it's difficult being the last person anyone wants to speak to or being at the bottom of the pile for jobs. So it was a, it was a different, I was, I was learning something new. But if you really want to be established and you don't want to be a short-term fix for, for your clients, then I think the mid to long term, it was the sense to go. And I was always trying, I was always trying. I wanted it.

No, it makes complete sense why they were such important building blocks, like completely. Particularly obviously Jay's still with you now, like he'll know Again, like, it can be very easy for people to be, um, like, not be grateful for these things that you have, like being on a framework and stuff like that. So like, when you have those experiences, it just makes you remember those things. Like, no, we've— we were off framework. Like, those are the days. Like, we're in a great position. We need to keep pushing, need to keep doing what we're doing.

Yeah.

But what—

just so— just, I think you are— you're really 360. Like, when you're— when you're off framework, that's a real 360 roll, right? You, uh, that is You are earning your stripes, winning them clients. Whereas opposed to being on Framework, is it like, you can argue that it's 360 and you've still gotta build a relationship with temporary staffing team, but a lot of it's done for you. It's like you tick a box, okay, we'll give you the jobs. And it's different. Yeah, it is a bit, it is much more delivery focused. And I still think now my guys have got it good. They've still got the same commission that we had from day one when it was real tough 360. But I've been good to them.

I was gonna say, just sort of the important bullets on tendering for framework? I don't know, what would— what do you want to share there? I know it might be a whole nother thing. I don't want to go on a massive segment on it, but like, what are the important bullets on that?

It's a big piece of work, that's what I would say. And if you look in the industry, there's very— I, I know, I think, again, I don't want to quote exact figures, but I'm pretty sure 98% of people use other firms to do the bids for you basically. Yeah. So it's a big company, Nuven, who's quite well known that a lot of people use. Shout out to Ben if you're listening. Yeah, I mean there's a few different companies that do it and you're probably paying, I don't know, 7, 10 grand for the privilege of them doing it for you. But my advice would be specifically if you're starting out or you want to get on I'd go and talk to one of the firms because it's, there is a lot of paperwork. You're looking at like cyber essentials, lots of background stuff. You need to make sure your insurance is right. And then it's literally big process pieces on what happens if, like, yeah, what is your compliance process from start to finish? From the moment you register someone, what's your business continuity plan? Like, it's like there's a lot. Like, it's, it's, it's, it's—

your advice really is, if you want to really commit, invest in getting help. Oh, these people, I'm assuming they'll have a— they will have— I don't know how many times they've gone to bid, their success rate, all that, right? But if you want to increase your chances, first time getting a framework, invest basically in getting support.

And if you get it wrong, it's 4 years you've got to wait again.

Yeah, so it's a tough investment. The other bit Again, we can— I want to talk, I want to get to the point where you're talking about getting the infrastructure right, the finance piece, because, because that came up when I sat down with Hannah, and I think that is also something that you really have to get right. There's some bits you have to learn the hard way when you're in this game of contractors, public sector money, etc. But I wanted to ask you, I know you said you get given the keys, but at the same time, just because you're in the frame rate doesn't mean it's like a golden ticket, is it? Like, no, I mean, so I guess I wanted to just ask you again, like, what would you say the, the important bullets to know— and we might come back to this— but like, what are the important things that you feel like over the last few years since being on Framework that you really have to double down on to maximize being on these Frameworks? Because it's not a golden ticket. It's not like, okay, all, all the floodgates open. There'll be loads of other agencies you still compete against, all that. So like, what do you feel like you've had to be the most consistent with, double down on, to actually get the most out of the frameworks?

I think firstly you've got to be a lot competitive with your pricing because, okay, again, you've got 200 agencies competing for the same jobs as you now. Now you're being put in a pool with these guys, so they're playing you. All the temporary staffing teams are playing off the agencies against each other, trying to get the best, cheapest rates a lot of the time. So it's a bit of a different game when you're in that space. So you've got to be more competitive and then that means you've got to get your candidates to work for less a lot of the time. So it's about that relationship to your candidates, educating them, trying to make them understand things. I think your compliance piece, like it is super important. Like you're looking at, you're probably getting 2, 3 audits just from the framework. Sometimes the NHS Trust are directly looking at the compliance behind all your workers. If you, like, the moment you get that wrong, like, your reputation's like, sure, you're in, you're in bad. Yeah, it's not good. And, um, NHS Trust will again just discard you, won't let you work on the, work on any of their roles again. So it's about getting that piece right and making sure you're, you're really hot and you've got the right team around to, to, to make sure you're, you're good there. And equally, it's not just that, it's You've got to remember these people are like working with the most vulnerable kids in the country. So not just from a, because I'm getting an audit, but equally if I'm sending a nurse on shift who's not got the right training and God forbid there's an incident or something, you know, you want to be able to sleep at night. So I think that's always, that's always been a big part of what we do. And I think we've always taken that really seriously. Sorry, going back to your original question.

So it was, you said basically You gotta be, you gotta be aware that you're gonna have to be flexible on price and you're gonna have to be competitive on your pricing, educating candidates on like how things work. Relationships got to be tight. Compliance, once you're on the frameworks, is something you're gonna have to put time, energy into, be shit hot on, because if you're not, all the hard work could just be taken away like that. Yeah, compliance, I guess.

Yeah, no, and then, and yeah, yeah, I guess, um, then you'll report for the first time now, you're everything you're invoicing, like, there's reporting structures as well that you have to report to the frameworks as well about margins and what, what, what, um, how many headcount contractors, where you got them, which you didn't have to do prior to that. And then, yeah, sometimes you, you'd then be working through a lot more portal-based stuff as well. So it's not direct, just invoice the team. There'd be like NHS jobs, big portals, comes a lot more complex. Sometimes it then becomes a lot more difficult to get paid, which can have its challenges as well. So it's important to, to get that right. Um, and still, you're kind of working at a different level. Prior to that, we would be going around temporary staffing teams because they were just trained to say no to us, and we were trying to get relationships with people high in the NHS directly. And then once being on the framework, you you were then, you're working, it's got its positives and its negatives, right? You're working on the same roles as everyone else. You're, you're, it's just a lot more competitive for the pricing. And then to stand out and be better, we, again, we were lucky because we, we weren't looking to, to work all the jobs that they're giving us, right? We specifically knew our niche. We knew our children's mental health. We knew that's where we were good. We knew that's where we were strong. And I think that again, in itself, just really helped us because we weren't like I'm not just saying it, you know, we built the business to be great in that area. So when these jobs are coming out, we have, we've got, yeah, we've, we've got 4 years of a database in just that specific area, and everyone we're coming up against is having a little go at the market, but they're not, they're not, they're not got the same expertise as us. So I think that really helped.

What, so what leading up to, let me know if I get my timelines off, but I've got here between 2022, 2024. I've got here overdue 8 million. Yeah, I don't know if that was right. So like, just what, what was the, what was the finance infrastructure like during that time? Like, yeah, yeah, I mean, how big was the finance team? And that overdue 8 million is in like your business was owed 8 million?

Yeah, so let me tell you about that. If I'm honest, this was like, I was great at winning the business, getting people to work with us. Like I say, finding people's problems, solving it. Brilliant. And in the early days that worked fine because I think I mentioned to you, we used the back office company that did all our invoicing clients and would do our credit control for us. And that worked really well until about 100, like about 100 contractors. And then we were looking at what we were spending with that company and it was like, actually, at some point, do we bring this in-house? Do we look at bringing this in-house?

—And to claim back more of the margin, basically, because there's a point where then actually is the— Yeah, yeah.

Is it, was it, was it, was it right for us? And we wanted more control. Like, if there was things not getting paid, I wanted answers there and then. I wanted, I wanted as a, as a business owner as well to have someone alongside me so I could learn more about the finance side of the business. And, and so it wasn't just straight away, straight up, sort of just looking at getting sent a report, really understanding that, or having someone I could spend more time with as well. So we made the decision at about 100 contractors to step away. And it's difficult for me because I've, like, I'm interviewing finance people now for the first time. So I'm like, what am I looking for? But I'm not an accountant, right? So I think those hires, very critical. And I'm looking and I'm seeing people that have got experience as a finance manager in another sector, like an it sector. And then that was my first hire, and he come on board, lovely guy. And I think the challenge I had was like, they weren't screaming to me like, we're not getting paid, or, or the, um, they were telling me everything was going all right. But it weren't till I've got NatWest calling me up going—

so was you, was you, did you feel it was like handled? Because you hired someone in that seat, you didn't proper put your head into it?

Because yeah, yeah, yeah, I hired a finance manager, I've hired a qualified accountant. To look after that piece of the business thinking they'll be able to just pick this up. They'll get the difference between it, finance recruitment and healthcare recruitment. And it turns out we went on a probably 2 or 3 years where we started having cash challenges. In the early days it weren't so bad, we'd make it work. Sometimes NatWest would call me up and be like, Mike, like you need to get hold of this. Like we are not gonna borrow you any more money. Like that invoice discounting facility we had, and I'd get on the phones and I'd call clients and we'd make it work and it wasn't, it was bad. But then I switched the finance manager. I brought in another finance manager thinking I can't keep living like this. This is like on paper I'm getting sent something to say I'm making XYZ. It looks really healthy, but I've got the bank every week saying this is just—

And that's because you've been paid because the bank provides you that money. But then they do that because then they're going to get their margin when the actual end client gets paid. But that wasn't, yeah. Yeah.

They're like, yeah, we don't mind giving you that facility if the NHS is going to pay us on at least like were our payment terms of 30 days, but they're like, all right, we'll give you a bit of leeway, but you need to be getting paid on like 60 days from them.

What was like, I don't know if you did look at what ended up being like the average payment time to get cleared?

There was times when we just have like so much sitting in like the plus 90-day column and like millions, I'm talking millions. So like, this is how bad, this is how bad. And hats off to NatWest because they could have easily pulled the plug. So we got, I can't remember the exact date, it must have been about It must have been about 3 years ago it was at its worst. And I think at the time we had a £5 million invoicing discount facility with NatWest. And we'd— they'd referred us to this special team inside NatWest. Basically, it's like when they're getting jittery and they're like, they're worried that they're never going to get this money, they pull this special team in and I was getting calls. I think it was Rob, like, lovely guy, but in the end he's calling me 3 times a day. What are you doing about it? Like, what's your finance doing about it? Giving us targets. We're going to basically come in, take control of the business. And I think they've just all written into their contracts that they're able to do that because they want their money, right? And every week I'm like, don't worry, we'll sort it out. Just give me one more week. Give me one more week. Like, we'll get enough cash in that keeps them happy and it will sort it out. And I think we went, we had a £5 million facility and I think we got, we went £6 million, so we're £1 million overdrawn. We went £7 million and like the conversations were getting, I was getting bored of like the sound of my own voice promising them that we're gonna get cash in, we're gonna get cash in. And it was just, I think we'd had a payroll team, there was so much mistakes in some of the stuff we were invoicing. It was so messy that we like, NHS just were not giving us, like they weren't paying us because there was problems with every bloody timesheet or breaks weren't put on properly, and it was just— we had like £8 million of this money that we owed, but we just couldn't get any of it over the line and paid to us. And it was, it was a nightmare. I think at its worst, I think it was £8 million in. I remember there was a Friday where— and I remember like, I think the Thursday night, I know everyone's getting paid the next day, and I'm sat in the boardroom literally thinking like, NatWest are going no more, no more. Like, literally, we're not paying your cats. We're not paying your contractors and we're not paying your staff. Like, you've just, you've got today to basically go and get like XYZ in, or like, it's just not going to work. And I, I was sat in a boardroom and I've got my whole, I've got like 40 heads about, about 40 heads at the time. Everyone's looking at me like, why is my wages not in at 9 o'clock?

I'm like just thinking, how do I get out?

Yeah, how do I, how do I get out of this boardroom? Like, I've got every head just looking at me. They can tell something's up because I'm normally like absolutely fine and I'm still trying to mask it, but I think It got to the point where even it was getting to me. And I remember going out and we had an office manager at the time, Christy, was like, Mike, what's going on with the money? Like, oh, we've got millions of contractors calling in, where's our pay as well? And in our industry as well, if you don't pay them like one week, you have 200 contractors switch to another agency that will pay them. And overnight you've just lost everything you've spent working like 8 years to build. And I remember like having to go out And it— they've done this in the weeks running up, but they'd keep bailing me out at like half 5 at the end of a Friday. I think they were like, not worse. And, uh, but this time he like— they told me it definitely weren't happening. And I just was like, head in my hands, what's gonna happen? And, um, yeah, I had to like beg Rob, like one of the guys. And he— at the time they were trying to— I think they were working because they knew if they just completely dropped me then I think they were worried that how the hell would they even be able to get that money in. So it kind of weren't in their interest to completely cut ties with me because they were worried about— they had, they had their £8 million on the line, right? So I think they were organising in the background to get their own FD person in to come in and basically take control of the business. And I think they were looking at like a CEO to come into the business just to try and get their, get their money back. And I, I went and found an, uh, an FD that had been in healthcare, and I was like, I'd rather get my guy in than them send their guy in. And we were working together, and in the end they paid me out. Like, again, it was like, I think it was 6 o'clock at night or something, which was a nightmare. I basically had a heart attack that day. And, um, but the next week it was a bit of a turning point. I brought in a guy, really experienced guy, FD, and he was a sweet talker. He's an Irish guy, kept the bank really sweet, managed to like save the relationship with the bank. And worked with my finance team to literally like, I think that next week we got like £2.5 million. There was like one client we was waiting on this like £2.5 million payment from. Wow. And it dropped the next week and we was like, oh my God, weight off shoulders. We are still in business. And I honestly think we were like weeks away from going bankrupt if that had gone another way. So they're the bits that like people don't see and that is why it's so important to get your cash flow right. It's like, it's, you, you don't realize. You got to think, if you're payroll in, I don't know, £600,000 a week in wages, you go like 4 or 5 bad weeks or billing wrong for 4 or 5, all of a sudden it's like that stacks up to, yeah, £4 or £5 million quid that you're owed. And if it's not flowing back to you pretty quickly, banks are like not happy.

Stressful side of the business. I like, honestly, I really appreciate sharing that. And I know there'll be so many people listening that have been in those sorts of positions. And it's so hard. Touch wood, I've never been in that sort of position yet as a business owner, but like, they are the things that like aren't glamorized. Like those moments when you're in the boardroom, you're alone, it's like, but how am I going to get out of this one?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's, that's the what comes with being an entrepreneur, then, at those types of moments. But that is— that must have been so hard.

No, it was, it was, it was, yeah, it was, those are the bits that you, you look back on it, you know, is it, is it worth it to take all the stress on? But you, I think, yeah, as an entrepreneur you have to, you know, you can't, you have to find a way to manage that and you've got to look at the good bits, right?

Yeah, for sure. Fair to say then, anyone listening that has a very big or growing contract book, like that finance piece, that whole infrastructure having the right people is like paramount. Would you have got that in earlier or like, I don't know, is it just getting more of the right people in seat?

In hindsight, I don't know, I probably should have been sitting next to my payroll team. You should have been more involved. I probably should have been sat next to them. Stop, just stop making, stop worrying about like billing for a second. Stop worrying. Like I should have been saying to my guys, just stop actually, just take a week off and come and help us in finance because we were doing crazy numbers. But the finance function just couldn't keep up with it, right? And it was going out all messy.

Um, to say that Hannah actually said the same thing, like she got herself in a really spot of bother and then she went fully the other way and like got completely educated on it. So that is actually an interesting thing because it is— I, I've had my own journey with that. It's nowhere near obviously what you've been through, but you sort of stick to what you're good at. And like, I've, I'd probably describe myself, I'm not great with numbers, but over the last, like, year, I've really got into, like, tax, how it works, all that. But it can be easy to shy away from, can't it? Yeah.

And I think, look, at that level, my problem I had was like, every— it was just blame culture within the finance team. It's not my problem, moving on. No one's actually tackling getting to the bottom of the issue. And, um, yeah, it was tough. And then I was lucky, my— one of my oldest friends, uh, I went primary school with him He's playing the same football team as like a 7-year-old. He'd not done recruitment before, which is mad, but he was a qualified accountant. But I knew at school, like, he was one of the smartest kids in my school and I knew he was smart. And I said, took a chance again though, because I'd gone with experienced finance people, but I said, come over. I know he was a temp at the time to help us through that little bit. But this is Shane, um, shout out to you, Shane. Yeah, he's, uh, but he's come on since he's come on board. I think you just need a bit of common sense sometimes, and it's just like taking the time to dig through the numbers. And I just think at the time I had people just not getting it, and it was just, you've got to get into the detail. And it was, it would just, we'd got too big probably too soon, and it was just a mess. Like, it was a bit of a mess than what was going on, and we probably pissing off loads of our clients because the invoicing all had like, not like nothing was, it was all what it was, like the money was what it was. But I think every trust had its own like nuances of how they like to be paid and like you was making it difficult for them and it's like we weren't, each trust had a specific process and we'd, we weren't following it, we were just doing everything our way and then wait until 60, 90 days before we were picking up what the problems were and it was just like, yeah, just snowballs.

Yeah. What's the infrastructure now besides salespeople? What does that look like today then? Because obviously I'm sure you're like shit hot on that now. What does that look like?

Yeah, we're a lot better than we were. So, um, we got, so Shane's FD, we've got probably about 8 in the finance team, 2 really good credit controllers now, couple of people in our payroll, all talk to each other. Like some good leadership on top of it really helps. So that's, uh, that's a lot better than it was. And then we've got like sales support, operations, and then we've got compliance team in the UK. So we've got, I've got about 4 ladies and a manager in the UK, and then we've got an overseas team as well that does like maintenance to keep people compliant in the Philippines, um, that would— it's quite new for us that we've been using as well. So yeah, I think that's the, uh, structure.

But it took, yeah, some big lessons along the way to get it to that point.

We like, honestly, I cannot tell you how close we were to not being here, not being here in that boardroom.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, what, like, let's just talk about the, the future then. Like, what, what are you really like when you think about this year? What are you really doubling down on? You, you know, learn you've got the infrastructure right, benefits to that is If we do continue to grow our contractor numbers and get it beyond to what it has been, you're going to be confident with that, got all the right things in place. But you've got— I've got it written down here— you've got 3 divisional managers, right? Um, it's like, yeah, when you think about the future, the next 12 months, like, what, what are you really doubling down on as a business to— I know you said that you're going through a bit of adversity, first time you had a drop, you haven't, you know, been used to going like this. Like, how do you see yourselves breaking through the £400 contractor mark? Like, what are you doubling down on?

Yeah, I think it's tough. So even when things were good, I'm still never happy, right? So imagine what I'm like when we've dipped for the first time in like 8 years and it's been tough. And I think the healthcare industry in itself has seen like a lot of casualties this year. And there's some horror stories, to be honest, but we were kind of always in our own bubble. And a year ago, I brought in MD, as my sort of the next phase for me is to try and step back a little bit more, develop a leadership team. That was always going to be on the journey. And I think I was hoping that actually bringing an MD in would allow me to sit back and numbers drop, whether it market, maybe he wasn't the right hire for the team specifically. But either of that didn't work out. So I'm back. In the business a bit more now, I think for me, like, it's just to keep tripling down on being the best. It's honestly, for me, like, the, the numbers or the money will be a byproduct of us just being the best at what we do. And I think that's ultimately my goal, is just to— I think we are already like the leading name in our industry, but it's to don't rest on that, do you know what I mean? And, and it's about just service levels, honestly being the best, making sure that we have the best talent, we can attract the best talent, and just to keep working on that. And then, like you say, to bring in my leadership team through, we just rolled out like some share options for the first time. And I think as opposed to trying to do everything, I'm still learning and I'm trying to be more of a coach for the first time. I never really had any formal management training until quite recently, and it's like, actually, I'm going in and I'm telling a lot of the time and without coaching people to come up with the answers. And I think we're really working on that piece at the moment. And then sort of not to come off, um, recruitment too much because it's not too relevant, but obviously I've acquired another recruitment agency, mental health recruitment agency. And I've, and I've over the years gone and set up like service services business on the side. So, and the ultimate goal was always for them to be successful and us to become their biggest client. So actually I'm not relying on NHS, actually I've created like a clinic which I've got like children's homes, which actually CAMHS then feeds those businesses. So yeah, in the last—

their biggest problem is always going to be people, isn't it? One of— yeah, yeah.

And I knew I had an advantage in those spaces and I could get the best talent, so it felt like natural progression for me. And again, I still don't know whether that's That potentially has had an impact on our numbers dropping as well, and me being spread and trying to get these startups off the ground in those industries. But again, the goal for me was to go and win NHS contracts directly as a clinic, and then CAMS can supply the clinic staff. Do you know what I mean? And what better way than to not, as a recruitment agency, don't have to rely on external clients when you've got like, you know, the founder's got a business that we can supply to. That was always kind of, has been the goal. So that's where I want to get to. I want to double down. I want to keep being the best. I want to get to that 400. I think it's just, we've got better learning and development team now that we've never had. Like, the infrastructure is so much better than it ever was. And now we've just got to go and do the numbers, get the contractors out now. Let's execute.

Where, um, I had this question from, you know, I was telling you that one of our customers operates in a similar space, not your niche, but healthcare. I just got here, just curious to get your take from all your experience. I know sometimes this is just educated guesses, but I just got here, like, where do you envision government spending in the next year or two? Like, I guess you view it from your lens of like childcare, mental health. I don't know what comes up for you there.

I think if I'm honest, and how I've seen them, and it's partly why I've probably shifted, I think the NHS hate they're not happy to be spending money on agencies and they haven't been for a while. And I think they have going off framework early and even being on framework, I think there's more scrutiny over the spend than there's ever been.

And how much money has been spent on recruitment? Again, I couldn't tell you. No, but in terms of that's what they're scrutinising.

Yeah, yeah. I think in particular, but what I did see, and this was one of the madness bits for me, is that you can, you can be an agency and you lose so much red tape around like how much you can charge, um, like how to supply, lots of red tape. However, the NHS is being privatised all the time. There's contracts coming out where you could set up as a healthcare provider, as an actual service, go and win a contract, and there's no red tape on how much you charge the NHS, right? And I, that part of my reason for setting up a clinic sort of 4 years ago was hang on a minute, like, why is there so much scrutiny over me as an agency? But actually, they're desperate to privatise parts of the NHS. So I kind of spotted that. And I think agencies, it's challenging. I don't know if it's gonna bounce. It's intriguing to see how it plays out. I think right now there's a lot of people that are just digging in and thinking this cannot be sustainable. Like, it is a really tough gig. At the moment. Um, and I guess part of that reason is I've diversified myself. I'm setting up children's homes, I've got my clinic with a view to spreading, spreading myself because it doesn't bounce back, then, you know, still got options. But, um, yeah, I'm not going to sit here and paint a pretty picture. Like, there, it's, it's bad. The market has been bad compared to where it was 3, 4 years ago. And, uh, but at the same time, like, just across healthcare in general, the population's getting older. It's a Labour government, so technically they should be, they should be supporting NHS, specifically in mental health. The, the landscape, the— so people being exposed to social media of a young age, that is definitely having like a huge impact on people's mental health, and there's not enough staff in place to deal with this, do you know what I mean? So where's the problem? The problem's still there. It's not going. And I think there'll be more, more privatization of the NHS. And I don't know if they're on the recruitment— I don't want to, I don't want to say like, you know, will it, will it go back to where it was 3 years ago? I think there's a big push on overseas recruitment in, in healthcare in particular. Um, yeah, I, I don't know. I don't know what the, uh, solution is. I think, I think there'll probably be more international nurses coming in. I think, I think there'll be more and more contracts privatized, and actually what you'll get is actually a lot of the NHS workforce just go and work for private companies. Yeah, maybe it'll change under Labour government, not sure.

It's just, it's interesting to hear it, like, you're so in the weeds of all this, so like, it's really like, I'm just finding it really interesting myself, but Totally understand why someone running a healthcare recruitment business would love to hear your take on that, right? But it sounds like, yeah, it's just got harder, margins are smaller, like the cost is being looked at more, like it's just become more difficult, which it makes sense why you're saying I'm gonna make sure that we really double down and not get complacent with our service. We have to be all over that. And then what also sounds like that's always put you in good stead is this like niche and focus, like you're not trying to be everything to everyone. And if you just focus on this and it's in a space that, let's be honest, is likely going to continue to rise. So like, yeah, I feel like they're the bits that's always going to give you a fighting chance as well. But overall, if I'm running a healthcare recruitment business and I'm placing, I don't know, nurses one minute and then something else the next minute, my margins are probably smallest than they've ever been. The cost of being scrutinized, competitive, like I get why, yes, it can be really hard, so I get that. Um, but look, thank you so much for joining me. Like, there's— I'm sure there's more we can talk about, but I think, like, you've just been really honest around the good parts, the bits that you've learned from. And I know there'll be so many people that can learn from this. And like, just again, like, I know you said you don't have the habit of looking back, but like, just defo, like, kudos to everything that you built so far. You know, we haven't even spoke about you actually trying to play part in the industry you're so passionate about, opening your own clinics and all these things. Like, that's— I just love that about our industry and what I'm really passionate about, you know. From you not being able to get into recruitment to what you built now, the opportunities you're giving to your people, it's, it's mega, do you know what I mean? So I appreciate you coming on and sharing your story.

It's been, it's been a pleasure.