What is it actually like to start your very own Recruitment Business? Eden, Jodi & Mark share it all

Welcome back to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and in this week's episode, I was joined by Eden, Mark, and Jodie, who are all the founders of a new recruitment company called Peritus Partners. I absolutely loved this episode, and it was slightly different. So Eden, Jodie, and Mark have all been on a journey in the last year of building their first recruitment company. So in this episode, we really deep-dived into their first year. The challenges, what tech do they invest in, how do they approach the market, how do they approach being different, and everything else in between. Enjoy the episode. Eden, Jodie, Mark, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having us.

Uh, this is new, obviously got 3 of you guys with me today. As I was just saying, uh, we did a bit of prep so we don't shout over each other, but why I'm really excited for this— and Jodie, obviously it was your idea, I thought it was Eden's— but, uh, obviously a lot of people think about starting their own recruitment business, maybe, uh, too worried about taking the leap. Some people take the leap and it doesn't work out, but it can be really challenging. So obviously you guys are coming up to your first year milestone. So in this episode, in this conversation, we're just going to have a real deep dive in the first year in business and what we've learned, challenges, maybe what we do differently to rewind the clock. And, uh, yeah, just have a deep dive into that. So where I always like to start, and Jodie, I'm going to come to you first, is I would just love to get your guys' perspective on what you believe makes up a sort of highly successful recruitment consultant in today's market, if it's characteristics, traits, what are some of the things that you believe make up a successful consultant?

Yeah, I mean, I think generally like the things like consistency, I think consistency is probably the main one, um, with accountability. There's a ton of traits that you can look for, but generally I think what an important part of it is actually the match, because you sometimes see recruiters do terrible in one company, move on, and do, you know, really, really hit the ground running. So I think it's about the person that they're working with and being trained with as well. I think that plays a key role in how successful someone can be. So, yeah, having the same kind of, not necessarily same personality, but definitely the same kind of like values as them.

That's actually really interesting. Eden, what would you add to that? What are some of the things that you think about when we think of characteristics and traits?

I think we touched on this before, is the growth mindset aspect. I know a lot of people who watch this, you know, say that, but I'm gonna have to follow suit. But someone who's constantly just trying to push themselves, learn and understand, and kind of be just a sponge of knowledge, that like, because it doesn't matter what level you get to, you always have something to learn. So obviously, just echoing what you've said, if you've got someone who's right for you to learn from and you want to learn with them, then I think that's probably one of the biggest things I would say.

Mark, anything to add? I know it's probably all been said, but anything to add?

To be fair, I've been asked this question so many times, but I think somebody just takes responsibility for their own actions. I think for me that's probably the most important thing because you can own it, know where you've gone wrong and start again, and just, you know, take it on board and improve and move forward really. So I think that's one of the traits that I'll always, you know, look for.

So let's unpack this first year then, and obviously I've got a couple of questions that we want to go into. I guess obviously where I wanted to start, and Jodie, I'm going to come to you on this first, is like, obviously when a lot of people start their own recruitment business, I think the most common sentence will be like, we're going to do things differently, right? So you've all worked for a few different brands in different environments, so I guess first question I'd love to get your perspective on, Jodie, is like, after working in those different environments, different companies with different people, How did you guys approach being different? That could be internally, externally, but when we think about you guys building a recruitment business that is different and you really delivering on that, what, what comes up for you and what was the thought process?

Yeah, I think this is hard because there's so much competition out there. Um, externally, I think the, the main thing, and it's probably a change in my career from starting out and then becoming successful as a recruiter, was probably actually listening to what the problem was. It's kind of standard sales, really, listening to what challenges are out there and responding to that, and then recognizing, is it something I can actually help with, or do I just want to pick up a job because I need the KPI? Um, so for us, what the, the angle or the, the way that we approach external, um, as in picking up business, is by understanding what challenges people are facing. And that can change, certainly changed even between the gap where we say left recruitment, but we had a period of time where we couldn't work or had a gardening leave, for example. So yeah, we kind of see different challenges from that perspective of what clients were facing and then how we respond to that and what sell-back we kind of give them. From an internal perspective, I think we've kind of seen what we personally feel, or what I personally feel worked well and made me feel valued valued as a recruiter, um, and also what doesn't. And I think that's something that we want to do correctly. And also going forward, having like a feedback loop as we grow, um, because, you know, as I say, things are going to change all the time. So getting people's perspective, um, and hearing from them as opposed to being top-down, I think that's one of the main things.

What are some of the things— just on that quickly, because I think when you're in the thick of like building your own recruitment company I think you can end up being the employer that you didn't want to become quite easily, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's like when you hear, like, you obviously say, like, I never want to be like my mom, and then you're like, fuck, I'm actually like my mom, do you know what I mean? So, like, just obviously we're not trying to, like, name people or anything like that, but, like, what, what are some of the things that you experienced that maybe made you feel, like, disgruntled, didn't feel valued? I'd just be interested to hear some of that because sometimes I think these things can be missed. So what, what are some of the things you've experienced that looking back you're like, you know what, that if they maybe changed that or didn't do those things, I could have probably been even more engaged with work? What are some of the things that maybe didn't feel valued?

So moving milestones, I guess, is one.

Moving the goalposts.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's one. I think, you know, there needs to be balance and people need to be clear on what expectations are before you, you know, start. And also having consistency in that because I've had sort of several managers and it sort of changes and that plays a part in it, I guess.

I think it's the awareness of the high-performing team around you.

Okay.

I think that plays a big part in that side, having people that want to genuinely push each other and, you know, are able to support each other, not put each other down. Right, yeah.

So actually like all rise together, all celebrate each other's wins.

But across the whole company, not just your specific team, but across the whole business. And I think the fact that we're mindful of that, you know, we're talking about obviously how we've been trying to be different internally because we've been in that environment before, and we're mindful of it, just having that, that conscious awareness that, okay, as we grow, or even with the team we have now, let's try to avoid that as much as we can.

Okay, so let's just frame this up for people then. So, Eden, what were the— what were like when you, when you guys first thought about first year in business, what were the major milestones or goals that we had? Because I know we can talk about how they've changed and maybe sort of underplayed what you could achieve, but just talk us through what the initial goals were, and then we'll just talk a bit about, um, where hopefully you're looking to end up and what you're on track to do, and then we'll unpack.

This, this is going to go against what Joe just said about changing goalposts, because we did. So I think we, we were kind of always told, especially at the beginning, like, don't expect too much, you know, don't, don't worry about, you know, if you're not making money, just like basically do the bare minimum just to get by, essentially. That's like going with that mentality, which we all kind of got a bit you know, a bit weird about, but we kind of was very reserved on what our targets would be, which blew out the water quite quickly and obviously adjusted. But I think it was that first year going into a new market with no branding behind you, going into, you know, we couldn't go back to old clients for a period of time, so we had to be a bit more savvy in what we're doing. And I think for us it was just fine, we need to keep the lights on, you know, we had to pay our bills.

That was your favourite phrase for about 2 months. That's all I heard, yeah.

Anyone else, how's it going? Well, the lights are still on, it's a good sign. I think it's just about having, you know, for us it was just about making sure we get to the end of the first year with a decent enough client base that we can look and start building, expanding on. Yeah, because we have all these audacious goals and ideas, but when you have nothing in the bank really at the beginning and you just have an idea, you need money behind you and capital behind you to make those ideas come forward. So I think That first year for us was about us three getting settled in. You know, we're in a position where we've hired people and now we can start the second year with enough money in the bank to actually really look forward and start growing properly.

So let's just get those goals then. What are the billing goals?

So actually, when you first write it down, the very first one, I think, so we went on, correct me if I'm wrong, it was 300 NFI, right?

Yeah.

So that was money in the bank.

Yeah.

So what we're on now is I think you guys had the last numbers.

Yeah, we're close to our target. Close to our new target anyway.

What's the new target?

A million.

Okay.

Profit.

Profit. Yeah. So we're 11, we've got 10 months. 10 months.

We've got 6 weeks to go.

Yeah, 6 weeks to go.

So we should hopefully.

But your initial target was 300. Yeah. Getting close to a million. Okay, cool. What about, did you have any headcount goals in your original plan or was it just like you 3?

No, it was just us 3.

Okay. And you've got a person, one other person.

So we've got 2 now. So we've got, our first hire was in January. So she was our business support officer, she doesn't do recruitment, she does everything else that we would need from someone. And our first recruitment delivery partner came on in April, I believe.

And then what about, did you have any, like you said obviously, yeah, trying to obviously build enough of a client base that you can then expand on second year, what were the initial client goals? Did you have like signed terms with X number of clients in the first year? Did you have any goals around that?

I don't think we kind of went as deep as that, I think because we're all quite aware of our ability to recruit.

Yeah.

I think getting stuck into very specifics at the very beginning, saying, okay, Mark, you need to do 10 client sign-ons. We had, we had discussions about how we want to do each month. Yeah, it never really kind of stuck because it's— you do get stuck in the job.

Yeah.

But also having those goals kind of, then it becomes a goal for a sake of a goal, and you have too many of the goals going on, you kind of just lose your way. So I think it was just keep it as simple as possible That's the money.

Yeah.

How we make it, how we get there.

Yeah, so you just had the monetary goals.

Yeah. Okay.

As Mark would say, if we can't do that, we might as well give up.

Yeah, nice. Okay, cool, love that. Thanks for sharing that. So I guess, Eden, if I come back to you then really quickly. So thinking again, thinking about the beginning, like what was, like you said, couldn't go to some of the clients that you worked with in the past. Like what was the go-to-market strategy? Like just talk us through a bit that what was the game plan? What was the approach to take people from having no fucking clue about your company, not just being seen as another recruitment company, like talk us through like the go-to-market strategy, what that looked like?

Yeah, so I had to do it for the first 3 months by myself, which was tough. I think having conversations with these two, they could see it wasn't an easy ride for me because everything's on your shoulders, you know, the clock's ticking until you get money in the bank, the clock is ticking. So because we couldn't go back to old clients, we couldn't leverage relationships, I basically thought back what made me successful pre-leaving the former company, but even before that, because when I left I had repeat clients, I had good relationships. So going all the way back to the beginning, that first, first year or two of recruitment, what made me successful then, and then kind of going back to the very, very basics. And for us, or for me, it was really about what do the clients truly want. They want quality-led approach, so just give them exactly what they're asking for in the job descriptions online and try and build those connections that way. So don't get fancy, you don't have to do all the marketing stuff, things like that, because, you know, we didn't have the time for it. It was just very clear: put the right product in front of them, make it compelling enough, start the conversation. And then back to what Joe's saying, was all conscious from the beginning, having that awareness of if we're right for you, it will work. If we're not the right agency because of X, Y, and Z, it's not going to. So then going into the next 3 months, because when they could join, I think we all sat down and realized What if you could go back, i.e., myself, to the beginning, knowing now what you know, what would you do? And that's when we introduced our client matrix.

Okay.

So we sat down, so when these two could basically hopefully hit the ground running straight away as well, sat down and worked out a list of criteria, 15 things. This is what makes a perfect client, and we graded them, and it basically spews out, you know, whether or not we should work with that customer or not. And we're quite honest with the clients. We'll sit with them on a briefing call and say, look, you're like, you're ranked very low, you know, realistically for you, for us to engage with you, we need to see this percentage, or we need to see this amount of money up front. So we're very upfront with them, you know, some clients like it, some don't, but that's an awareness again, you know, from the beginning that we're a partnership between client and us, and if they don't want that level of partnership, then we're not the right agency for them. And it also means we just don't work you know, as many roles, but they're better qualified.

Also, it's not to say that, you know, everyone needs to score high. It can be there's factors in there that's like, these are maybe they're what we would call a B client, but essentially we're then working on the areas to make them an A client. So if their process is really long, that's something we can then consult them on and advise them on why and what the comparisons are, using data to back it up to say this is X clients are making this amount of hires in this time frame, you're not, and we believe it's because of this. So it's kind of like a way of us recognizing what we need to consult on as well. It's not to say that if you're not hitting the mark, we won't work with you.

Yeah, it's not fixed. Yeah, there is fluidity to it.

No, I love that. And then Mark, would you mind sharing some of those? Because I think that'd be really useful for people, because I think obviously as you learn early on, right, you're talking about those, those earlier times, like what you're really good at early on is like working on shit jobs basically, and just say wasting your time, you know what I mean? So obviously what you've done really well there is you're trying to obviously only work and put your time in, which is the most valuable thing that you have, and especially in those early days you're trying to get to that first placement, these things, that you're working with committed clients that you know that if you do get the right people in front of them, that there's a good chance that it's going to be a smooth process and it's going to be a partnership, you said. So I think this would be helpful for people. So Mark, let me ask you then, so I love that point there, what you're saying, it's not, it's not just for us, it's like Hey look, this is where you're at, but these are some of the things that we can maybe help you improve on so we could actually have an even better partnership. But what are some of the other factors, important factors, Mark, on that? Because I think that'd be really helpful for people on the client matrix, things that you look for.

Um, yeah, there's a few things like in terms of like commitment. I think a lot of the, the scoring is all to do with commitment from both ends, you know, how many agencies, um, do we have signed terms, interview process, how long does it take to interview, even to like salary expectations. So I think they're all based on giving, you know, initial feedback to say, one, can we add value?

Yeah.

If their salaries are too low for the market, then why should we take it on? We can't, you know, there's no point taking on the role if we can't place it. I think that's the, that was the common trend throughout. And everything come back to time as well. You know, we would always, we'll always say to any client, you know, we'll only take you, your project on, or the client on, if we can Actually believe that we can place it, yeah.

Okay, so back to the beginning then, Eden, because you was on your own for a bit. What was the thought process behind tech stack? Talk us through that.

My bane of my life.

Bane of your life, yeah. Talk us through like what was the initial thought process of like this is what we need as a minimum to get going, because I think you can get quite lost in this, can't you? Like there's always new shiny things.

I'm the most tech savvy on the team.

We do get lost in it.

Yeah, you do try and do that whenever we've spoken.

I'm tech savvy, but I'm not. That's the issue. So it's like the blind leading the blind on this one. Okay, so go for it. CRM system, telephone system, and website.

That's what you wanted?

That was easy as anything. We kind of all had a very clear idea what we wanted, found a couple of partners, trialled them, and it was very, very quick. But it was the actual systems that we used internally, because obviously we set up different times. So I got a laptop, I got— I then obviously bought Microsoft Word and all that stuff. But I bought on a personal account, right? And then these two did the exact same thing, and then trying to merge personal accounts to business accounts and then trying to get us all on this onto a shared drive was just a headache, really. But we didn't also explore Google Cloud, which I know you use for a period of time, so we didn't explore different areas. We kind of just went to what we knew and what you've used previously. Yeah. And going, looking back now, and it might even still be an option, I might revert to different system like Google Cloud, for example. But for now we're set with Microsoft, but there's good and bad for both. But need to have a shared drive if obviously if we have more than one person. But the telephones, the CRM system, and the website was like minimum. Yeah, and obviously LinkedIn, everyone, but that takes like 2 days to get set up.

Yeah, and like what did you like, did you try and really negotiate cheap deals or anything? Like, I don't know, what was the How much budget do you have?

That's going to be a conversation.

Really?

Yeah, Jodie was very good at saving.

Oh, of course. Queen supplier discount. Like any—

I always say I want something for nothing.

Yeah, you really?

Yeah, they didn't want the call from Jodie.

So what work then, Jodie? Because people listen to this can try and get better deals.

End of the month, contacting them at the end of the month. We're the same, you know, deals to be closed. Getting comparisons and yeah, I guess just going backwards and forwards with them a few times, spending that little bit of extra time and not taking the first—

Very persistent.

Letting them sweat a little bit, not just taking the first one and letting them realise, oh shit, they might go somewhere else.

I love that.

That helped at the end of the month, helped massively, especially with our telephone system.

So on just on this subject, I get a lot of messages from sort of early-stage founders. What What was the approach on terms? Did that sort of, like, just like, I'll get a lot of messages saying like, do you have any like term templates and stuff like that? Because I think sometimes that can really confuse people. So your actual terms of business, how do you get that sorted?

Well, we're quite lucky because we have quite a lot of friends in different companies that founded their own businesses. So I think we used what we knew in general, because we both, what's that, both, all three of us had an awareness of what terms should look like.

Yeah.

and then working with what we kind of knew, with what other people show us, and then speaking to obviously actual legal advice about.

So you did get some legal advice?

Yeah, I think we took, especially for you, like especially the contracts, interims, they was like quite complex, especially the compliance and things like that. So they was hours and hours of work and proofreading, and I was probably the worst person to proofread because Jo used to go, Mark, have you read it yet? I'm like, yeah, I'll do it tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow.

Have you read it yet?

And I'll see like 32 pages. I'm like, oh wow, I need to push it back to another week. But that took a lot of time and effort and actually going through to make sure we was—

I think as well with like, like coming from contracts recruitment, you're always getting frameworks to be reviewed from client frameworks. So having that kind of understanding helps then seeing that, and I think that maybe, you know, if other recruiters are looking at doing their own thing, um, that would help if they're reviewing client terms themselves rather than passing that over to their, their manager, right?

To get that exposure.

Because you know roughly what sort of terms should go in there, it's just the wording. How do you put it into a legally binding contract? We don't screw yourself over. That's obviously what we needed the advice for. But the standard things, it just put yourself in the mind of what would a client want to know. And also because we're reviewing contracts of other companies as suppliers to us, again, it's a very similar thing. You just have to write it back to yourself.

I think we was quite well equipped on the, like, the permanent side, like, leading, like, the teams over the last, like, 6 years. Like, you've reviewed so many contracts and so many questions and queries have come up, you sort of, you see it reworded slightly different and you sort of understand what it means and why it's in there. I think that was quite key, but the contract side was definitely a lot more complex. So I'd get some advice on that if anyone's asking.

The difficult one, I think, was actually the internal employee contracts.

Really?

Oh yeah, that was quite common.

Yeah, because obviously we've never had to do that, because when you hired someone in a previous company, you just send the contract out, you don't pay attention to it. So then it's like putting a mindset in, okay, what do we want to put into that contract for us as an employer?

That protects us. Yeah, precisely.

So that one was a Was a little bit—

that take a bit of time?

Yeah, and we didn't really give ourselves too much time to really do it because the first client could start quite quickly and it was just all of a sudden.

Yeah, okay. So on this then, what I also want to ask, uh, I don't know who'd be the best person to ask, but what about— I also get a lot of messages around like, I think what sometimes people don't realize, because I've had some of these conversations where like when you're an employee, you close a deal and you write on the board, bang the gong, whatever, and you're like 'Yep, I know what commission I'm getting, deal done.' When you're a business owner, that means fuck all. These invoices got to get paid before— so like, I've spoke to so many people where like, yeah, like obviously they've got invoices out, then they're not getting paid until 60 days, or I don't— like, that's— that can be really difficult. What's been your journey with that? Good. You've had people paying on time? Is that on your matrix?

Difficult to put on a matrix because you don't know. They could say, 'Yeah, of course we will,' but you know, terms is on there, I think. Yeah, payment dates. So I think it's like If they pay within 14 days.

An invoice on signed.

That's the one.

Really?

So I think we've only got 2 clients so far that we raise on when the candidate starts, which is a big deal for us because most of our candidates start 3 months after we hire them.

Yeah, so you've got time. Oh, so you invoice on signed contract.

Yeah.

How's that been received? Is that been— is that—

yeah, very, very few rebuttals with it. I think it's if you're confident going into it. Like, if you sound like you don't really know what you're talking about, you shouldn't be asking this question, they'll always come back. But if you're stern, it's like, it's one of those— one of the questions obviously non-negotiable, that sort of stuff. Of course we can, for the right client, discuss it, but mostly it's—

And then what's like the agreement if then like they accept a counter offer or it doesn't go through? Then it's like full refund.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Won't keep the money if we don't.

Yeah, so nice. So you haven't— because I think sometimes I spoke to a lot of early stage founders who were like Obviously amongst all the other stuff, they found themselves just chasing a fuckload of invoices and all that, and that's just really stressful. That's been pretty okay.

We haven't had that.

And I think we've got a pretty simple process of we have an invoice tracker, we do a deal, we put the information on, they send me a calendar invite, and as soon as that date comes, as long as I'm pretty much aware of it, and we just chase that day and make sure. I think we're transitioning that because we're getting more contracts and interims coming in and the invoices are getting more of them essentially, we're getting Vicky to really take range of that and make sure we're on top of getting paid. But we're actually, touch wood, we're gonna be alright.

Yeah. So how, again, just I guess to the beginning part then, how long did it take you to do your first deal?

Just under 2 months.

Okay.

But we should have done one sooner.

Really?

So just under 2 months to actually get one sorted, but prior to that we had 2 offers that accepted counteroffers, which, that was a real tough pill to swallow because pretty close, but the other companies coming with just stupid counteroffers, there's nothing we could do. And then one where they kind of accepted, but then the company closed. So in the 2 months we had 4 opportunities to actually—

Wait, wait, wait, say that again.

So the company made an offer, we accepted, and then a week later they basically shut the doors and said, we're firing everyone.

Oh wow.

Yeah, so that was a— Again, nothing we could do. But I think at that point, because I'm sitting there stressed beyond belief thinking I need to make a deal, I need to make a deal.

Yeah.

I think it was like you two sitting me down going, well, you're clearly doing something right.

Yeah.

It's working, just keep plugging away. Like we're getting back to it because you're getting there. Just through luck, it just didn't happen.

I think just on that really quickly, I think what would be really helpful for people, I'm always curious, like when you are in those moments or on that journey, what are the things that you're like keeping a close eye on that give you confidence that you're doing the right things? Because I think that can be quite hard to see, isn't it? Because you, you want to get the end result of that placement and get that first milestone. Yeah. But what are the things you keep in top of mind daily, weekly, that you're like, right, if I keep doing this, then I feel confident that I know it's going to pay off and I'm doing the right thing?

I think I'm quite big on feedback loops, and obviously I think as a business we'll be that way inclined. We do it with our clients all the time. So I I don't think there's one particular activity or thing. I think it's constantly having awareness with the client. This is what we're doing and being very transparent. This is what we've done for you so far. Do you need us to pivot the search? Do we need to change something? As long as the feedback's coming in from them as, you know, the candidates are good, like, keep going, or the, you know, when we're sending candidates to jobs, they're happy as well. I think that's the biggest indicator that we're on the right tracks. So I don't think there's a specific activity to say, okay, you're doing it, other than does that candidate get that job or do they move through that process and just being, you know.

I think we also like every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday we'll have like a meeting just between all of us to kind of highlight what's going on on our desks and what's going right, what's got even outside of our desk, to be fair. But it's kind of a chance for us to call each other out and just say like, well, have you done this? Have you done that? Have you checked?

Yeah, hold each other accountable.

Yeah, even though we've we've all done it for a while, it's very easy to, um, yeah, I guess get stuck into it without actually, yeah, making sure that you've done every step. So it's kind of, um, I think that's probably a key part as well, having— having— sounds soppy, but having each other.

Yeah, yeah, I was gonna— that was gonna be my next thing, like, when— because we were just speaking a bit about when you was on your own for the first part, and I know I asked you this before, but I'm always curious, like, how, how did you guys— maybe, Mark, you can start this off— but like, when obviously it was them three of you like, what was we doing? Or what did we— did you guys quickly learn what you was all better at, at certain things beyond, like, billing and beyond being a recruiter? How did you work that out?

So we actually worked that out by complete saying, what do you think you'd be good at? Before we even just ask them a direct question. Yeah, and we broke it down into marketing, HR, and finance because we thought there were 3 things.

Marketing, HR, finance.

And we thought there are 3 parts that we need someone to just take reins of.

Yeah.

Did we know he was good at it? No. We just say, right, Aiden, when I do marketing, I said, okay, I'll do finance. And Jodie was like, well, I'll do HR.

Yeah.

So really, yeah. So really, we didn't know who was stronger at what. And I think we've been learning, like, these— not to say, like, I'm the best at finance because Jodie helps me, Aiden helps me.

Yeah. Jodie helps me with marketing.

That's my responsibility.

Yeah.

If it goes wrong, like, for example, pension schemes at the moment, or the last month, has been like the bane of my life, really, trying to work out how to create pension schemes and just learning, listen to videos. But that's my responsibility and it's my stress. Marketing's been his stress. Contract, HR stuff has been Jodie's stress. So we're still not at that point where I don't think we go, right, that is— yeah, that is—

you've all had an honest conversation of like, right, this is maybe what I'm good at. And then as you said, it's then being willing to hold each other accountable. Yeah. Rather than— I think I spoke to a lot of people where maybe they didn't have that honest conversation and you're all trying to do a bit of marketing, HR, finance, stepping on each other's toes, and then that's when it can get difficult, confusing.

Like, I know for a fact with like the marketing stuff, I'm definitely not especially sad at it, and I'll always take on their opinions. But same thing with Mark, like, we're never going to be a CMO or a CFO.

Yeah.

Or— yeah, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not perfect. It's just, if it works, let's not just— let's just go with it for a moment. And yeah, we're tweaking stuff all the ram. That's the thing, like the finance stuff, like the invoice trackers, where what we started with and what we've got now is, is slightly different. And as long as it's not broken so far, then we, we're sticking with it and just taking on little tweaks and advice from each other.

Hey everyone, a real quick one from me. This podcast would not be possible without our amazing podcast partners Vincere and Sourcebreaker. Because you listen to this podcast, you're able to get your hands on exclusive savings on both of these award-winning products. If you're a growing recruitment business, you have to check out Vincere, who are an all-in-one operating system for your growing recruitment business. With Sourcebreaker, if you want to make sure that all of your recruiters have the best tools on the market to stand out and beat their competition, then you have to check out Sourcebreaker. Use the link in the show notes, in the comments below, and you'll be able to get yourself exclusive savings on these amazing products. Okay, so I want to definitely touch on like, uh, how you approach hiring internally and what that, that was like. But really quick, I want to ask all of you— I definitely want to— we kept it quite positive so far. I want to definitely get some of these challenges, right? But like, what do we— and feel free, any of you, to like sort of start. But like, obviously we said about your goals initially and what you're on track to do. Like, I know them— obviously I want to give you guys as much credit as possible. Obviously the market's crazy, right? In terms of everyone saying how well they're doing all these things, but like, what do we think are some of the principles, things that you've done, fundamentals that you've done that really enabled you guys to build traction and like really over-exceed initial expectations of yourself? Like, what are some of the things you guys think you've done really well to build traction?

Oh, that's a hard one.

I'll start.

Go on.

I think, I think for us, I think Having the business, and because obviously our perspective of recruitment is gonna be different for someone who's employed now. Yeah, every deal matters so much more, and I think knowing that, it allows us to give a better service. I think this is the best recruitment I've personally ever done, not because there's loads of opportunity— there is— but because I know every single deal counts more so than ever. And taking a step back and thinking, okay, you know, is it worth my time, or is that kind of truly going to take that job? And advising the client you want him or her, but they don't want you. So that's just not waste our time. Let's just go separate ways with it. And not just putting KPIs on for the sake of it, but making sure for a fact that everything we're working is as close to either we're filling it or the job's coming off because the candidate— but they're in the company, filled it internally, and that's it. For me, that's very interesting.

So like, there's just— yeah, you're right. So when it's become your own business, you do an extra bit of pride.

Yeah. Because it's not £1,000 in your back pocket per deal, it's £15,000. And you're sitting there thinking, okay, that's going to hurt so, so much more if that needs to come off.

And I think, you know, crazy enough that it's like 3 heads in 1. You know, we have, we go for walks for like 45 minutes and all we're talking about is how we can work out how to close one person's counter. And we go through all these different scenarios. They might not even be true, but we're thinking, what are they thinking? Are they doing this?

And we're all adding value.

Yeah. And to be honest, be honest, it's attention to detail for me working with these two as a, as a free. We come up with a solution at the end. There's always a problem like, well, they've got this or they've got that, and we just sit, we just go for that, or have a walk or a chat, and then all of a sudden we— right, I've got it.

And you go back to the office and the person just says, yeah, I'm accepted. Yeah, the solution was never needed.

45 minutes for no reason.

But at least we've gone through the motion of thinking, okay, what every— so what could go wrong in case it does, and then we're prepared for it as much as we can.

Yeah. So I know, I know we— you said before, but you've feel like you've really, uh, been like really grateful that it's all you three on this journey, isn't it? That's massively helped. So I guess, Jodie, let me come to you first then. What have been some of your biggest challenges so far on this journey? What would you say?

Funny you should ask, 'cause when we was talking, we was talking about this beforehand and I was like, I don't feel like there has been challenges. And he was like, you can't, that you just come across arrogant. And I was like, but I— it's not that there's not been challenges, there's been things that we didn't know, but I've always felt that we would be able to work it out. And we have. It's actually, I think I maybe worked it up more in my head. I thought it was going to be harder than it actually is.

Than it turned out, yeah.

So yeah, I mean, for anyone that is, also I think we were maybe in a position where we were ready to do it. Like for me personally, I sort of kind of stopped learning as much as I want to. And you're saying about the deals, like the deals would, you'd be happy that they happen, but the numbness of someone not accepting your offer just kind of, you get used to it. So I think for me I was kind of ready for a new challenge. So maybe, yeah, I think maybe I, sounds underplayed, but I think anyone that's in that position where they feel like they needed something to learn again, just go for it because it's not as bad as you kind of think. At least that's what I found.

So what— let me ask this in a different way then. This is one of the questions I got, which I think is sometimes, sometimes often missed. We're talking about work stuff here. What about— so Mark, let me come to you first on this. What about what has the stress of being in a startup, you guys wanting to achieve, put pressure on yourself, how's that affected your personal relationships?

Um, it's funny, expectations is like once they started to gather pace, that was probably the pressure on. That's all you could think about, right? So at the start where we had minimal, we say, right, well, all we got to do is keep the lights on, for example. There was no pressure or no stress. And then once your expectations grow and they keep growing, we keep moving the goalposts, I think that pressure started to mount. And each— me and Eden, Jodie don't feel the pressure as much as me and Eden for some reason, but me and Eden early in the month, we start, we're a bit edgy, a bit happy, like, oh, we're not gonna— and then all of a sudden we get to the middle of the month, we just laugh about in a week, and it's happening again. We're getting to the middle and we're starting to—

it's the unfortunate cycle of our, of our months at the moment.

Yeah, but I do try and break work, and although we speak all weekend on a group chat about deals, I do try and switch off on a, on a Friday, uh, like evening, and then come back on Sunday, Sunday night. Although I do feel guilty. I said to these two in the week when I have a couple of days off, I feel that guilt because they're in the office. I went to a wedding last week, come back, and I was like, oh my God, I've let them down. I've gone away for a couple of days. I don't think I'm going to get away from that guilty feeling yet until I feel we have employees and people running our business for us, alongside us. I feel that pressure, and you know, just letting them down, not just being in the office, is there. And that's real.

So what about you, Danny, then? Personal relationship stress. So you're soon to be a dad.

Yeah.

That's going to be a new part of the equation in your life.

Yeah, that's timed perfectly.

So how have the expectations, stresses of building this affected, if at all, your personal relationship?

I'm really, really fortunate. So my other half does recruitment.

Oh wow.

So I'm super lucky. She knows the stress, she knows the pressure of checking your phone at 9 o'clock at night thinking, why the hell is this candidate not responding to me? So I'm really, really lucky in the fact that I can talk through some of the problems I'm having, and she also then can give me her perspective. So it hasn't really had too much, too much issues. Certainly I do feel going into the next chapter with obviously birth my child, that's going to be different. And that's, that's— I have no idea how that's going to handle because obviously she's going to want me home more, and I'm gonna— because I also value being in the office, and I understand completely what you're saying about feeling guilty about taking that time off. That would have to be a question I have to revisit because at the moment, personally, for the last year, it's— I've had no real issues. I've been able to switch off when I wanted to.

And so when did we know then— let's talk a bit about hiring then. So how— one of the questions I got, which I think is a really interesting one. So if you think about your initial goals, you didn't have any headcount goals on there. So one of the questions that I got, and obviously you've hired 2 people now, like, how do you know when you're ready to hire another recruiter, another employee? Like, I think people are interested in, like, the financials you think about, the runway that you give yourselves to make sure you're not stressing, or that person's salary doesn't give a huge stress on the business. How did we approach that? Like, how did you sort of know that, or feel confident that you could sustain the new employee and a salary for someone?

I think with the very first hire, it wasn't a recruiter, so she's the business support officer. I think with her it was quite easy, we already knew her. She wanted a super flexible environment, she's got children, so she basically just wanted a place where she can work part-time but she doesn't want to recruit. Yeah, but she knew recruitment and it just, that worked perfectly in the sense of the salary, because it's only part-time, it wasn't a huge factor for it. With obviously our delivery partner, I guess that's a different story because obviously that is a salary person with a commission structure that we have to factor in. I think it's just being aware that obviously we need, obviously, to be able to pay her for a period of time, need to keep the business afloat for a period of time. I guess you guys focus on it.

Yeah, I was going to say that I think we've been—

My finance guy, sorry.

No, no, I was actually marketing person.

So what have you, is it like maybe like, right, 3 months? I don't know, how do you think?

We actually, we, we, I guess we're very cautious, but Jodie created a, like, a very particular budget plan, and I mean to a T, where we went through everything is on this Excel where we know our ins and outs to a penny. But it helped us just understand, right, we've got 9 to 12— we actually try and have 9 to 12 month runway at least. Like, we—

for a new human being, I think we said before, like, the pressure—

we don't have that pressure now, but when we started, that pressure of the runway.

Yeah.

If you have a too short of a runway, I think that will disrupt that whole thing. And we didn't want to bring someone on knowing that we can't offer them a long-term career. You know, one, it's bad, you'll ruin your whole reputation bringing your first person and then going, oh sorry, we actually haven't got enough money for the next couple of months. So we was very cautious, I think.

And I think in terms of how you think about moving forward, what's the runway? Are you going to give yourself same time period if you just get another delivery partner?

Yeah, I think it makes more sense. Is it 2 years we've got?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. To keep the business with just as we are. We've got about 2 years.

2 years, yeah.

I think moving, moving to the next priority in, uh, October. Let Eden settle in as a dad, and then it's time to really hopefully start scaling up.

Yeah.

And that is the plan of action, I guess.

But that budget plan that you've created, that— yeah, as you answer the question, how do you know, plug the numbers in, it will tell us.

Exactly.

That factors in every benefit that we would give that person, even down to—

so you know exactly the cost of the business. Yes.

Yeah.

Which is sometimes you miss out commission taxes and everything, and it was really— On that then, quickly, I know you're going to say something, Jodie, but the other question I had, and you can factor in what we're talking about, how did you guys approach commission structures? How much did you weight to salary? Out of interest, because people are curious, because we've all experienced different things, right? So how did— I'll come to you, Jen, on that. How did you guys approach that in terms of the commission opportunity for your hires? And then also, how much did you weight to the salary?

Yes, I mean, Aidan's probably better to answer this one because he created a, um, like a framework of, um, essentially each— yeah, each step, like a progression plan for every level that we, we hire. And because we didn't— we wanted to start the business knowing that the people that we bring in, um, we've got a future for them. Because at the end of the day, we don't have, um, you know, we don't have the, the holiday incentives at the moment, we don't have some of the benefits that other—

the typical things, yeah—

competitors can offer. So what are they joining? They're joining us as people and a future, a career with us. So that was something that, yeah, Eden put together in terms of like salary bandings. We all kind of discussed, you know, what we would see as a fair salary in comparison, and then we factored in percentages based on, yeah, like a commission structure that we was used to but maybe tweaked, was tweaked a bit. We also figured that from a 180 perspective, it should be 50/50, which is different to what we—

so just 50/50 split with it?

Yeah, if you— yeah, if you're using the— we feel—

yeah, I feel that it's a candidate-driven market more so now, um, and it's— you can't do one without the other.

They're both very valid career paths as well. I think the, the career frame we put together highlights that, and having that awareness, 50/50 from the very get-go, that, you know, you don't— it's not an environment where the business development consultant.

I've seen that better as—

yeah, they just take piss essentially.

I think that's really changing at the moment. I've had a lot of interesting conversations on that of like, I think, yeah, like you're saying, like a 360 recruitment consultant, I've had the perception that they weren't as good— sorry, they were better than, better than— but I think, yeah, I think more and more modern recruitment companies are building delivery functions and delivery teams, and that needs to be seen as like just as good of a career opportunity for someone.

They're two very different skills, like very, very different skills in aspects, and I think it's having that that understanding that if you don't want to do the business side, you can still have a career with us. And having that kind of get-go, this is what that career would look like, this is what you would need to achieve, and then this is the commission structures for both.

Yeah, so a couple of things as we come to the end here then. So like on that, like just if you don't, if you don't mind sharing, because I've had a couple of questions about it, I've spoke to a lot of recruitment founders who have actually been really surprised by the starting base salary. On when hiring people. I think it's just massively changed, right? Obviously inflation and obviously all these different things, but I think if you were to, like, when I started in recruitment, I think I was on like an £18k base and then like commission. And I was speaking to a guy the other day where he's interviewing like entry-level people, grads or non-grads, and they're asking for like £25-28 grand as a base. And some people are like, fucking hell, like, how have we got to this point? So would you mind sharing, like, how, when you said salary bandings, how did you think about that, that was fair? Obviously you guys are based in Essex, can't you?

Yeah.

How do you think about that?

Because we recruited into our last companies anyways, we had a kind of an understanding of what it would be speaking to those rec directs. Is it what the market is, is it going to be the best on market? Probably not. Obviously you can always evaluate. We haven't really had the opportunity to test it because the person that we actually hired into delivery, she worked at the café around the corner. Yeah, and it wasn't— we didn't hire her based on her recruitment experience, we hired her based on her culture. She felt, we felt that she could be a good match. She was looking, we were hiring, and that's like, we didn't have to test it.

Yeah, I found that too much.

I think that's, um, in terms of like salary expectation, I think that's something that we will constantly look at. I think one of the things that probably we was frustrated about before was they didn't know what— they didn't move with the times. I think for us, we just have to keep looking at the market, and you know, what we looked at 9 months ago when we created the progression plan, um, might be different now. So it's something that— yeah, it's definitely something we need to keep, keep an eye on, um, for sure.

Yeah, we tell our clients to look at the data from the market, and we will do the same. Yeah, but where we haven't had the chance to test it against the market because we're not going to market to find a recruiter yeah, we might be well off, we don't know.

I also think the kind of, um, yeah, some of you mentioned are probably more grads in London. Yeah. Um, maybe Chelmsford as well, I guess. But that's not— yeah, for us it's— I think we pay fair for, for the area that we're, we're in, essentially, because we ain't got the travel costs and that kind of thing as well.

So, okay, cool. So I want to make sure to ask this question then before we finish. Um, like, oh, Eden, I'll come to you first. Obviously people always interested to know, knowing what you know now, what would you do differently? Like, if you were to start this over? So we'll go around and see what comes up, but like, for you personally, from what you've learned, what would you do differently if you were to start this journey again? I know it's exceeded expectations, there's been challenges, it's gone well, but what do you think maybe you would do differently?

Breathe a bit more, just take a step back. Like, because there's periods of time, although like the months are going well, like there's still those moments of like, oh shit, it's all gonna come crashing down. It's not, like we're stable, we're okay, you're okay. And it took a long time to realize that, and I still haven't realized it fully yet. I think if I was going to go start from the very beginning, I'll just try and enjoy— I mean, I've loved it, but I'll try and enjoy it just a little bit more.

Yeah, it's hard.

Yeah, because out of the month, you still get those days where you just like, you have wobblies.

Yeah.

I think just try and enjoy it as much as you can because the lights are still on.

I think, I don't know if you guys have found this, but on that, like, I personally with my own journey, I like, for me, I listen to like constructive feedback and where we can improve way more than like positive feedback. So if I have someone say to me, oh, this is great, like, you've created this, blah blah blah, but then they say, I'd be like, have you, I think you could do this better, or like, have you thought about this, like, when I then remember that conversation, that's way more loud. I remember that more than they're like good things that I've done. So I don't like— I'm terrible at like patting myself on the back.

But I think that's because we have the three of us, and yeah, if it was those, those first three months were awful because although they were there saying, 'You're doing okay, you're doing good,' like I could only share my own success. Whereas now it's the three of us. I'm having a shit day, these two are smashing it, I feed off of that, and it brings you back up the next day.

Yeah, that's fair.

Having that dynamic it's a lot more, but I'm feeling the exact same. I always take the negative or the—

like the things you can— yeah, you're always looking at what you can—

yeah, I think that's— I don't think that's a bad thing though. I believe the good things look after themselves and then the bad things you need to take note of. Yeah, so I always believe in that anyway.

So what would you make— and what comes up for you, Mark, on maybe approaching things differently or looking back on this journey?

I've probably spoke to a few more people. Before I started, you know, I knew about recruitment, I knew about how to do a process, know how to do everything pretty much. More about that business side, you know, we were speaking to my auntie who owns an agency, but I would have spoke to a lot more people in the market, be a bit more out there finding out what the problem challenge is. I feel like we've done a lot of surface level, maybe done a bit more homework on the finance side, how to, you know, set up people on PAYE instead of waiting until the problem come and then doing it. So yeah, I would have done a little bit, although we've done a lot of homework, research, meetings, like towards building a business. It was more that stuff that I wasn't aware of.

Self-education.

Yeah, yeah. If I did it again, I would have invested that 4 months a bit more, yeah, into speaking to more people.

And I think just on that, I've definitely experienced it. I don't know if you have, but like You'd be surprised how many people willing to help when you ask as well, do you know what I mean? Especially if you speak to other business owners because they've been in your shoes. Jodie, what about you? What comes up for you? Anything that you'd do differently maybe?

Probably all get the same technology and furniture. We're a typical startup in that sense. So I think now that's something that's probably going to cost us going into future years when we start to, yeah, make everything the same. And also maybe look at more automation tools. Um, I know there's an expense to that as well, but I think that's something that can actually save your time. Um, I mean, one of the best things I think we've done was, was bringing on Vicky, which has helped take away some of the, like, administrative tasks, which has allowed us to do more selling. And I think that's maybe another way that we could have done that, or at least researched about it to do. Um, yeah, I think they're probably the two, two things that I would be looking at now for the I love that.

So let's just go around one last time then and we'll finish there. But back to you then, Jodie. What, like, people listening that are considering taking the leap, maybe been on a similar journey to you before you started this business, has got a good, um, amount of experience, maybe worked in 3 different companies, always like the idea of starting their own, but maybe, as you said, like, really maybe play up too much, like, all the stuff they don't know, like the HR, finance, marketing, that could mean that they weren't capable. What would be your advice for those people considering taking the leap?

Just do it. Just go for it. I think, um, yeah, I've seen obviously some people do set up and think, you know, it's boring on my own, or I've not got the same passion, it's not the same when you're doing a deal. And I think maybe like, yeah, somebody, not just anybody that's doing well in the company, but somebody that you actually trust, um, partner with them and do it. Just go for it. Because I think You can learn along the way as long as you're still open to learn and don't think, you know, you kind of know it all. Yeah, just go for it really. I think for me, like Nils was saying, I don't really get stressed, but I'm quite stubborn, so my head won't be stressed, but my body, like, I'll have, like, I'll feel like stomach problems and things like that. So I get it in a kind of different way. So yeah, I think just maybe take a step back when you think you're you're not capable and revisit it and go again. It's like anything, you've just got to be consistent with it.

So, what about you?

Um, yeah, I think the biggest advice is are you ready to own your own business? Like, if you asked me 5 years ago, I wasn't ready. I, I could do the job, but I wasn't ready on a personal level. So I think being ready, being financially stable, um, is probably the 2 main points. And then the rest, you can do the job, you're just working for a different brand. That's not the problem. It's more the fact, are you ready to take on that whole responsibility? And are you ready in your personal life, for example, to take it on?

Aidan, what comes up for you?

I mean, I think they both said it all, but just do it. If you've got that thought process in your head that I might want to do it, I think I could do it, you're never ever going to work the same again because that's always going to be in your head. Even if you stay at the same company for another 6 months or move, it's always going to be there that you want to try it, and you might as well. Yeah, you're only going to let yourself down otherwise.

Yeah, and I think it's important to remember, like, like, I think in those moments, like, what is the worst case scenario?

Exactly.

Let's be honest, you can get— you can become employed again, but you're going to be way more comfortable with that decision if you know you've given it a real crack, especially in recruitment.

Yeah, there's so many transferable skills. I think people just forget that Finally recruiters, but with salespeople as well. And there's so many things that you can go and do after recruitment if it all goes—

yeah, it all goes pito and you don't want to do it anymore.

Or just go get another recruitment job. Yeah, because they'll look and see, okay, you tried, didn't work out, why?

Scratch that itch and then— yeah, yeah, love it. Well, I really enjoyed that first year, excited to hear about the future years. But thank you so much for coming on and sharing that, and really excited for everyone to listen to that. So thanks a lot.

Thanks.

Thank you so much for listening to the episode. I hope you enjoyed it and got value from the conversation. If you did enjoy it, please don't forget to like, share, and subscribe, and we'll see you in the next episode.