What Michael Green Did Differently That Made His Startup Hit $700K in Year One

Michael, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me.

Lovely to meet you in person. We've got to know each other for a little while. I know you also listen to the podcast yourself, so might feel a tad strange being on the other side, actually sitting in the seat going through this together.

A little bit, yeah. I am, I am a massive fan of your podcast. It is absolutely brilliant. So I'm super excited to be here.

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. So What we're going to look to do today is, and I always enjoy these conversations because there's a lot of people in our industry that are entrepreneurial, that maybe one day like the idea of starting their own recruitment business, maybe never take that leap. Some people do, some people don't. But you're in your second year now in the trenches building your recruitment business, but you're someone that took that leap of faith starting your own business, um, after working for an organization. So the goal here really is to really talk about what we think we did really well in year 1, getting to know you. Um, and I've said this to you, what I really commend about you and how you've approached things is you've been really intentional about where you want to be, where you want to go, and getting to know your business. Your actions have matched up with that. So we're going to talk about what that looks like and then some of the things that you're now doubling down on, um, in the second year. So to give everyone a bit of context, so year 1 of your business, solo founder, you partnered with RecruitHub to launch this business. $700K net fee income in year 1, biggest fee being $170K, which we're gonna talk about 'cause there's a bit of a story there. But within that also you built a contract book and started to build that as well, which I think is unbelievable to achieve that solo. And then year 2 on track to do $1.5 million GP, building this contract book up to circa 10 contract runners. So building that nicely as well. And your ecosystem, your world is ServiceNow? And you're going to look to finish as a team of 6, added a couple of people to the team that are now on the journey with you. So we're really going to get into the, the detail of how we've gone about that, because I know getting to know you, a lot of this stuff is intentional. And if we had a chat before you launched this business, I would have heard some of the things that you've achieved. Where I wanted to start, because I picked this up when I have been getting to know you, is something quite quickly you said to me around like being different, and we'll always hear that you've spent time and been in the rooms of other founders, whether that be RecruitHub events, listen to the podcast. I think a lot of people say that. So I think what would be quite cool to start is like what that looks like for you, and just to try and go into a bit of detail around that, because I think sometimes it might even be just delivering a better service, but what does that actually look like? Because I, I I feel like something that you really communicate outwardly is this like top 3% thing. I don't know if that's part of it, but let's sort of start there because I know that's something that you really want to pride yourselves on is being different. And let's start with like for you what that, what that looked like, what really inspired that.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So when I started the business, I probably planned it for 12 months in the background, working weekends, working evenings. My business plan was like 40 pages long. It sounds mad now, but I basically researched absolutely everything. And I absolutely obsessed over my go-to-market because I had a bit of a fear of around, around like why would a company use me, this brand new company, rather than the same staffing company that they've used for 10 years? So I took ages over it in terms of kind of what, what it product I would focus on and why, but then also what makes me stand out and what makes me different. It can't just be that I've got 15 years recruitment experience, that I'm a niche expert. Everybody says that.

That is such a powerful question to ask yourself. Like, why would someone— what did you— this no doubt will continue to evolve. What did you land on then? Like, what would it— what would have been some of the things we would have seen in this 40-page business plan? Like, what did you land on that really made you feel like that, that's why someone's going to choose me over somebody else?

Yeah, so I basically stopped and looked at my competitors, basically. What are they doing well? What, what are the gaps? I know typically speaking within the US IT market that recruitment companies have a bad reputation. They hire fairly junior people, they are sloppy on the phone, they send irrelevant resumes, they spam people nonstop. So right from the get-go, I said, right, I'm going to have high quality. I'm really focused on everything I do will be an elite bespoke service to my customers. So of course I'm going to have a niche. I'm going to hire experienced people initially. And it's gonna be high quality. Then when I actually started recruiting the market again, there was a big, big problem in the US IT market around fake candidates.

Really?

You might have heard about it. Oh yeah, yeah. Like, like, like proper scam. It's wild. Yeah. Yeah.

In what, in what, give me, in what context?

So a really, really extreme example is that somebody in the US is fronting the business, right?

Okay.

And they will go and interview with a bank. And they of course get the job because they are, uh, communicate great, they're great at their job. And then once they get the job, they then outsource it to somebody in India, for example. And somebody in India is doing the work at, at, at of course a fraction of the price. Um, and then, and then, and then the company finds out eventually the company's been scammed. It, it's, it, it is an absolute disaster.

Oh my God.

So that actually happened to me a few times in my previous job. Where we did everything you can think of in terms of, you know, video calls, got to know them, and, and, and then the client calls up and says, sorry, Michael, this, this is not the person I interviewed.

Oh God.

Uh, that's the extreme.

Okay.

Um, the less extreme is that candidates are, are trying to play the market where they know what's hot. They don't have the skill set, but they portray that they do. I mean, and obviously now with like ChatGPT, for example, they will use it to go and basically pass the interview. So they will say that they have this really niche experience and, you know, give real-life examples of it, fool the interviewer, and they get hired. And inside, you know, 6 weeks, 12 weeks of being there, the client's like, Michael, this person can't do this skill set. Well, what's, what's going on? So it's a huge problem. Um, so I'm basically here to go and fix that problem. Okay. So Unico is now designed and set up to say to our clients, look, we know that this is a problem. Have you been affected by it? And 95% of the time they go, yes, it a lot. So great, well, we're here to fix it. So we generally bring our clients the top 3% of it candidates within the ecosystem. Um, and the way we do that is by doing in-depth candidate screens. So we do communication testing, cultural fit, background checks, references. We get technical questions from the clients And we test their consulting ability. And I would honestly say about 70% of our candidates actually come from referrals. We're not there just surfing, you know, LinkedIn and scouring projects and sending in mails. All of my consultants actually have LinkedIn Lite, not LinkedIn Recruiter, because you don't need 100 emails. So we basically go to them and we can design this ourselves. So my biggest client is a New York hedge fund. And every job they ask me to go through and basically create, it's a simple branded document of a PDF, but that we created together. Take that to market. I run all the candidates through it and then when it gets to them, they know that that candidate is then of a high quality.

That's so interesting. So you really landed on this helping your customers assess properly as one of the big problems that you took to market, basically.

Yeah. And I also have a third-party tool which actually my my friend developed, and this, this, this thing is absolutely fantastic. We put the job spec through it or just use AI to basically give the questions. The client then goes and tweaks the questions towards them, and then all the candidates go through the testing with me on the video call so that, that then they can't cheat, basically. Um, and it spits out this like lovely kind of one-page PDF, like, this candidate for your job should be a 7 out of 10, and this is why, against this key criteria. So clients get the option between if they want to do a Michael Green manual effect or they want to use the kind of online version. I'd say the split's like 50/50 between, between, you know, what they choose.

What's the 3% part? What's the— why is it top 3%, not top 1? Because you normally see top 1%, don't you?

Yeah, you do. I, I, and, and, and I get this quite a bit of like, you know, like, you know, how do you quantify the top 3% of the ServiceNow market, right? And, you know, technically you you could go and run a search and say, well, there's 100,000 candidates in the US and in the top 3% of these 3,000. And it's more about that, that, that if they pass our screening, they would qualify as a, as a, as a top, top candidate.

Yeah, I got you, Phil.

I've never actually had a client ask me that. I've had many recruiters reach out to me and say, you're chatting a load of waffle, what's this top 3% all about? But, um, when I first tested it out, my, my theory around this, and I'll never forget it, my first client pitch, and they absolutely loved it. They, yeah, bit my hand off.

What do you think they loved? The, like, because was you selling like, we're going to help you assess candidates properly, you're going to be a lot more confident, you're going to get the top people, you're going to be confident that isn't going to be someone that is, is a hoax and is a, is the fake part that you said it was a bit of an extreme. So is it all that you is really buying into versus will get you a— I don't know, I don't know how it works— a ServiceNow data architect. I don't know a job title, but yeah, rather than you leading with that, is that what you're sort of saying or what you saw firsthand?

Um, so it's, it's basically solution selling, right? You're— I'm finding out what the pain point is. I know what it is roughly because, because every client has the same problem within US IT. And I basically address it with them straight off the bat and say, look, you know, what is your problems at the moment? What's your pain points? And they talk about skill sets. So, well, what about fake candidates? And probably 90% of the time they go, yes, we got burnt last week on it. Great. Well, I got— I'm here to fix it for you.

This is how.

And they go, Michael, this is amazing. And then from there we've signed retainers. We do, um, deposits, um, $1,000 deposits all the time. Worst case, some jobs are exclusive contingent. That's fine because, because we charge a higher rate for exclusive contingent. I'll happily take 25% all day long for an exclusive job because I know that I'll fill it.

This is— and so do you feel like you really ended up landing on that because you really asked that? I think it's such— it sounds really simple, but I think it's just a really good question to ask yourself when you're launching a business. Like, why would someone use me or use my business over the next firm. So it seems like it all really just stemmed back from thinking about that big question almost.

Pretty much, yeah. I mean, I didn't really plan it that way. I had a genuine concern about that. I was like, I have to make this a success. My dream was always to start my own staffing company. So I've got one chance at this. I've got one pot of money to fund myself for 12 months. Don't mess it up, basically. So, um, and, and I, I really obsessed over that. There's like, what is my go-to-market? What is my ICP? Um, and the, the final point is just, why would they use me? Um, it can't just be, I'm just Michael Green with 15 years, I'm a niche expert in ServiceNow. Um, and luckily it's, uh, panned out pretty well so far.

What— is there anything that you can share that made you— I feel like we spoke about it in, in the past. We did Microsoft AWS, is that right? In terms of previous job.

Yeah.

So what, what were the sort of signals that— because there might just be some principles here. Is there any signals that we can talk to that made you feel really good about the ServiceNow ecosystem and market? Is there anything you can share there? Because again, that's been really intentional. I do feel like that's an important part of this business journey, or just any business journey, if they're successful, is they're really intentional with the markets they're choosing and they know why.

Yeah.

What were the signals that you saw there?

Yeah, so, um, the market which you choose and the product is just obviously absolutely key. And loads of founders make the mistake of going just really broad, you know. For example, I'll do AI. I mean, like, it's just so big. Like, yeah, how can you say that? Um, so, um, um, I, I genuinely spent hours researching different IT SaaS markets, um, so software as a service. And the reason being because, because they are pretty simple. Like, like an architect is an architect, a developer is a developer, an admin is an admin. There's no kind of crazy language in there. Um, so I was, I was, I was— I had to start the company with something which I knew that I would get traction with and there's high demand and low supply. And I researched probably about 10 of them and it all always came back to ServiceNow. It's just, it's arguably the fastest growing SaaS product in the world. They are constantly innovating. They sit on the bleeding edge. So one thing I want Unico to always be within it is always sitting on the bleeding edge. And that will change over time. It won't always be ServiceNow, right? ServiceNow will, will definitely have a life cycle. Um, but then what's next? Uh, I think that I, uh, listened to your podcast with Mark Cohen, and, and, and, and he was talking about that he was, you know, 10 years sometimes ahead of the curve. So right now, I think ServiceNow is on the bleeding edge because they're doing things which, which other SaaS products haven't. But eventually that's going to peter off.

Yeah.

So now I've now started researching what, what's next for us, basically.

Yeah. What, just quickly on that, because I think sometimes people may take that as like, almost might view that as like a bit of a distraction, or it's like, how can you entirely control what's going to happen in the future? Like, what, just quickly on that, like, what does that look like in practice? Is it just on a weekly basis you're being open-minded and curious about what's going on in your ecosystem? You're, you're, you know, getting to know, you're definitely someone that's curious that wants to learn. So maybe you're asking people that are senior in the ServiceNow market because you're building relationships with them and you're speaking to them and asking them smart questions, you know, learning, you're listening. But what does that look like in practice? Because I, I also believe like that is, that is a job of a good recruitment leader personally, especially when you have your own business. I do feel like it's something that you should be mindful of versus just be dead set of like, well, we'll always do this and then if it doesn't work, we'll just do what we've always done and then hope it turns around.

Yeah, it's interesting. Um, so I have every week on a Friday my calendar an hour blocked off to basically sit and read and research and turn my, you know, Slack off, emails off, my phone goes off, and I'm just literally there just researching. Um, but that's not for today. That's not for me to turn around to my team and just pivot and say, right, you know, as of tomorrow we're doing this. We have a very clear vision, strategy, mission in terms of what we're trying to achieve. Um, I'm really looking for the future. But though within the ServiceNow world, which we're working at the moment, Um, we are sitting on the bleeding edge of that. For example, just this week we've pulled in a VP of AI job at a brand new partner where they're trying to integrate ServiceNow with an ERP to build AI on top of it, right? Like, like, yeah, it's mind-boggling. But, um, but though that is the bleeding edge, they, they, they— yes, AI is, is definitely within ServiceNow, but what they're trying to do with it and the ServiceNow platform is on the leading edge, but then other companies will, will, will, will definitely copy them eventually. So then when we've got this candidate pool, we're then going out to our customers saying, look, your competitor's doing this, have you thought about it? Here's a guy who can help you, or a lady.

Yeah, I appreciate sharing that because I think sometimes people are just interested in what that looks like. Just because we spoke about a second ago, just quickly, is there anything else left to share on particularly for like early stage founders, a consistent— and I'm sure you might have heard this potentially in the RecruitHub community, it might have come up— but something that seems to be quite difficult in early stages, and I understand why, is like saying no to work, or like those sort of commitment filters, or it just feels different saying no to work when you know that money will hit your business bank account, which, which is yours, company. It just feels a bit different. And then sometimes people can really find themselves just losing time with time wasters, with uncommitted work. You spoke earlier about the type of commitment you get from your customers. Like, did it always look like— was it a bit of a journey for you? I don't know, is there anything there to share for people? Because that comes up a lot.

Yeah, um, so all of that which you said, I knew because, because I told my teams that for years previously. And then, uh, and then, and then I started Unico. And I knew in 90 days I had to get some clients on, make some revenue. I had a goal of $100,000 in 90 days. And to me that was just absolutely pivotal because, because then I kind of proved to myself that then my, my, my model works. I can do this. We're off to the races. I made that mistake.

I appreciate it.

I, I absolutely kicked myself afterwards as well. So my first couple of deals were great. I got, got 2 clients on. I made my, my 100 grand inside 90 days. I think we charged them 20%. It was good solid positions. My next client, um, I took on a small Canadian-based partner. Didn't really know a huge amount about, about the Canadian market and thought, well, great, I'll do it. It's another client, great. Turns out that recruiting in Canada is very, very difficult, um, and most of them are actually contractors, not permanent people. And because of the conversion and the low salaries, the fees are absolutely tiny. And the person had paid a deposit. So I absolutely had to fill it and I did fill them, but it took me like 4 times as long as like a normal search back in America. So it was a really—

What drew you in then? Just because you knew you backed yourself, you're like, I feel like when you're in that seat, you're so willing to trade time like you just know if you get that opportunity, you will fill it. Like you said, like I had to fill it. I feel like that's what can draw you in. It's like, I'll chuck all my time at this, I can work evenings, I can work weekends, I'm gonna make it happen.

Yeah, yeah.

That's what I feel like you can get drawn into.

Well, when you sat there in the seat and you're like, right, I just have to get clients on, I have to bring revenue in the door, and as long as you're not being an idiot with it, you kind of make it work. Um, and I just thought it'd be quick, it'd be easy, I can get it in, it's another client on the board, it's another whatever, 20, 30 grand maybe. Turns out to be very, very painful. So I, um, since that though, I then put very strict parameters in for myself and also the team now, where now we have a very clear ICP for what we go after. Um, we are very, very picky on the clients which we take on.

Mm-hmm.

Because we want obviously the big revenue, the constant business, we want the big fees, we want to pile 10 contractors into them. So, uh, we actually walk away from, from, from a lot of business. Um, and those companies are quite shocked when we turn around and say thank you, but no thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Um, we want the really cool companies who are like typically PE-backed. They've got a lot of money to spend, the high growth, they're doing something really unique in the ecosystem because then that allows us to go and attract the top 3%. If I'm calling my unbelievable architects with the same boring job that everybody else is calling them with, they won't take my call anymore. If I'm calling them with something on the bleeding edge and this incredible opportunity and maybe equity's even involved, they're gonna pick up Michael Green's call every single time.

Yeah, no, it's a really good share. Just some, I feel like it is one of those, like someone could probably hear us give that advice 10 times over, but it might be one of those lessons you just have to learn by actually going through it. I feel like.

Yeah, yeah, it was a hard lesson to learn, but we learned it.

Yeah. Should we go through— because I think this was a really interesting, like, choice that you made as well, and I feel like it is one of the, the great benefits of being part of the RecruitHub community. Should we talk about this pivot that you made around, like, again, because you're talking about being very intentional with the companies that you work? Obviously, I feel like this is part of the equation as well. Do you want to tell us a bit about— why don't you just share, like, Because this came about when you started to hear how other people were doing, maybe like the average placement fees. This wasn't about how everyone was sort of showing off how much money they're making. It was more of like, I guess they were sharing their wins and what was going on. Yeah, tell us a bit about maybe like— I just want to hear like how it made you feel, because I feel like there's a lesson here for people, because sometimes people may feel like this is out of reach, but it's more of a limiting belief. So tell us a bit of a story around the pivot around taken your average fee basically from like 30K to double that.

Yeah, this is really the catalyst which then really pushed me on to do $700,000 of net fee income in my first 12 months. So my whole time in America, I worked for a very successful it recruitment company, but our fees were— let's take perm because it's easy. Our perm fees were always about 25 grand on average. Of course, some people did the odd—

dollars.

Yeah, dollars. Yeah. Of course some people did the odd $50 grand deal, $80 grand deal, whatever, but typically the average was always about $25,000, $30,000. So I started Unico just generally believing that that was what it is within US IT, right? You know, I, I, I have the right market, the right niche, and just the fees are about $30 grand. And I thought, I, um, I went to a recruiter meetup in, uh, in Austin actually, and, um, It was absolutely awesome. The kind of first time meeting all the other founders. We all got together, huge kind of session all day talking about recruitment obviously. And I sat there feeling really proud of myself for my, you know, couple of 30 grand deals. And the people in front of me were all doing like 100 grand deals, 150. The one person's average was like 150 grand. Some of them were like 250, 300. I was like, what is going on here? Like this is absolutely unbelievable. Like what do you mean? Like this is, this is it. That's right. Okay. And obviously then spent 2 days just, just, just completely quizzing them on absolutely everything to do with it. They'll never forget a dinner that night. Edmund Bloch said to me, you do realize that in your market you can do that? So you're right, I can do that.

And, uh, it was it. Do you think the only limit to you thinking of that was the environment he was in?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It wasn't like that's out of reach. No, I can't speak to, like, I'm not used to speaking to senior people. It was just what you, what you know is what you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I, that definitely was not a belief thing, um, in me and my skill set. It was that I just genuinely believed that that's what we did, you know. We, we placed developers and we placed some architects maybe, and the fees were 20 to 30 grand, 40 grand if you're lucky. Um, and so I left there and, and I, I, I landed on Saturday morning I spent all day Saturday just pivoting the business ready for Monday.

Okay.

I said, right, as of Monday, forget that. I'm now going after the big, big fees. And nothing changed within our, you know, go-to-market or our value prop. Unico was still Unico. I simply went up the food chain. So I, um, when I first started it, I was doing Dallas local or worst case Texas because I thought that that's quite a value add, a bit of a niche within a niche. I can get meeting people face to face. But obviously salaries and rates within Texas are very normal for the US. So the first thing I did was scrap that and started focusing on New York and California, basically, but mainly New York. I then looked at what industries are the highest spend within it, and it's financial services, typically followed by telco, followed by healthcare. So all my focus on end users was then financial services, but not like retail bank and a corporate bank. And I'm going to have to private equity companies, hedge funds, asset managers, something with lower headcount but like really deep pockets.

So this was all research?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just all research. But though all these companies basically are on legacy systems typically because they were, they were early adopters of ServiceNow and they're all basically doing a full replatform, which means they're gonna scrap the old system and basically replace it. So I just happened to catch it though at the perfect time where then I obviously spoke to a couple of hedge funds and PE companies.

So what was step one then? So you, first step is like, who do I even, apply this new energy focus to, which you just mapped out in a really good way. What was like step 1?

So step 1 was first of all committing to it 100%. Is that right?

Okay.

I am, I am, I'm gonna do this from Monday. No more small fees. Then it's like, well, how? So it's like, well, where has the biggest money? So it's obviously location is New York or California. It's a fact, right? In America. And then the industry, I said, you know, financial services. Then it was about the skillset. So typically before I was doing like, you know, BAs, PMs, developers, maybe a couple of architects. I just said the lowest level job I'm doing moving forward is architects. That's the baseline. I'm going right up to C-suite. So then my BD strategy shifted where like all I'm gonna be BDing and networking through is C-suite and VPs, but my candidates, I'm also gonna be networking through VPs and C-suites and flipping the candidate calls into client calls. And enter the company that way because then the lowest I'll probably fall is an architect. And my fee average in maybe 2 months between contract and perm, but it jumped from about £30 grand average to £60, £70. I'd say it's now about £80 grand.

Yeah, that's crazy.

Yeah, yeah. But the crazy thing is it's far more fun. It's actually easier as long as you back yourself and actually believe yourself. And, and you can go and speak to senior people. Um, they have to use a headhunter for these jobs. They don't use their TA function. They definitely don't post them on LinkedIn. Um, they can't fill it themselves. And then when you get the job on, the actual candidate pool is tiny. It's like, you know, 20 people could do this job. Well, then here's all 20 of them. Just go and poach these 20 people. One of them will say yes. It's, it's, um, it's not more work. It's just a, it's, it's, it's really just a skill and belief. Can we—

is there— can we just sort of double-click on this for a sec? You've broken that down really well, so I just want to ask you a question or two about it because this is something that has come up quite a bit now, if I'm honest, which is this, uh, speak to senior people in the market and then flip— like flipping them into people that you could work with. Yeah, so You know, you said, right, now I know who I need to like approach, I'm gonna go top down. What, like, why would they give you time? I just want to hear your take on that. So like, if you're reaching out to them, you haven't got a job, you haven't got a track record of placing VPs, like, what, what was in it for them?

How do they know that?

Okay, so one, they're not going to know that, but like, what, what, what was we leading with? Like, what, like, why would they give you time?

So I know exactly what I'm going after and obviously who I'm going after. The rest of it is just noise. I basically just, just, just, just blank it out. And then when I target these people, um, I'm either leaving them a, um, a really well thought out voice note on LinkedIn, which is a game changer.

Yeah.

Um, and I'm not pitching them a job, I'm not even pitching my candidate for a bid, I'm just leaving it completely open. There's a— I've got a great idea of how you and I can work together let me know when you can speak. I reckon that my return rate on that's about 70%, right? And these guys are CTOs, VPs, directors, chief architects, um, and of course I headhunt them. So when I started my career 15 years ago, LinkedIn didn't even exist. Like, it was all about headhunting people at their desk at work. So I'm pretty experienced in doing it, and that's really effective.

And how are we approaching these calls then? So I'll come back to you and go, yeah, Michael, sounds like a good idea, less, less, less connects, less arranging time to speak.

Yeah.

What, what's like the goal of that conversation then?

So when I'm first calling them, I'm calling them as a specialist headhunter on niche IT, senior positions. Let's get to know each other, basically. I then break it down in terms of, on, on the actual call and meeting, I break down in terms of who I am, why they should speak to me, and then I'm basically going into, into real depth and detail about them and their background. That gives me credibility straight away. I get to know them, what they want to do. But then it's not about me just pitching them a job. I then go, right, where do you want to work? My job now is now to take you out to market and go to the top 10 hedge funds or the top 10 it partners in the US and go and position you at those companies. Who do you know at those companies? They're basically doing the BD for me. Um, and then, and then, and then I'll leave the call with everything I need to know about this senior person. And what the action plan is. They feel really good about it because someone spent 30, 40 minutes actually getting to know them properly. And then at the end of it, I simply say, can I just flip my recruitment hat for 30 seconds? You mentioned that you're leading a team of 30 people. What's your pain point at the moment in terms of hiring?

Okay.

And 90% of the time they go, oh yeah, great idea. I'm actually hiring for this architect. And obviously by then the person, they like you, hopefully you sound really credible. They know how good you are because I've just spent 30 minutes going through them in detail. Yeah, absolutely, Michael.

Yeah.

And these people are so senior that they can just call up their TA function and say, put Michael Green on the vendor list. He's now working at Chief Architect John. Thank you very much.

Two things.

Yeah.

One, How different is that call if like they're not actively looking or want to work for another business?

Uh, 90% of our people are not actively looking.

Um, so like obviously you're not gonna— okay, so why would they be like, yeah, I want to work for this company, like I'm going to take you to market? Surely they don't want that.

So all, so, so all we say to them at that point is, so, so, so earlier in the call we basically drilled into What they like about their job, what they don't like about their job. If they could wave a magic wand and just change it tomorrow, anything they want, what would that look like? We're basically working towards the point of them saying, actually, you know, yes, I could do better. Or actually, yes, I am open-minded to this. Great. What companies in your career have you admired? Which ones would you love to go and work at? Um, and it's actually, you know, I've always wanted to go and work at this major bank. Great. Who'd you know there? I actually met Joe Bloggs at the local conference in New York. Great. You got his phone number? Yeah, I do actually.

Yeah.

Like, it's okay. I, I, I, I promise you, it's, it, it really isn't that hard. Just, just, but do people have to be trained to do it? Practice it. You've gotta commit to it, right? I think a lot of people hear about it and they go, oh no, you know, that won't work because they're probably a bit scared to actually go and do it. Like, it's, it's very, very different to just having your script and doing a candidate qualification for a £100 grand candidate.

The only follow-up to what I was going to say was like, how can we, how can we do this? I was going to say basically what you just said. I'm just going to ask you, how can we do this call really badly?

Um, it goes wrong when you don't say it with confidence or conviction. So if you're going through and, you know, you sound very uncertain and maybe you're stuttering or spluttering a little bit, and this person's gonna kind of put the phone down pretty quick. Um, if you say anything with, with enough confidence and conviction, they believe it.

So can we achieve all of this without leading with a fake job?

Um, we're never leading with a fake job.

So you can't— that was my question, just because I'm sure you've heard it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, a lot of that happens in, in this. That's what basically a lot of people just do.

Yeah, yeah.

Is it rather than being honest and transparent to say, do you mind if I just flip my recruitment hat on this?

Yeah, 100%.

Rather they just try and get a bite from you to say, I've got this VP of X role, and actually, later down the process, it's not, it's not the case, but it was never true in the first place.

Yeah. So, so kind of going back a step further from about starting Unico, part of my thing about, about doing it different is that, is that we have complete honesty and transparency in the things we do. So I'm never calling these people trying to pitch a fake job. I don't believe in that because I'm lying to them, right? It's— that is fake. All we have in this market is our reputation, right? And credibility is absolutely key. All I'm doing is calling them saying, I'm a headhunter specializing in this. Do you want to have a conversation? And normally they go, wow, a headhunter's calling me. Yes, please. And then on the call, I'm not pitching them a fake job. I'm simply saying who I am. What they want right now, I'll go and take you to market.

Yeah, I just wanted to ask you that because I feel like a lot of people may believe that in order to have those types of conversations, they, they have to be leading with a job or something to talk to them about. Yeah, that's why I just wanted to ask you that because I just, I just can't see in the long term that being a strategy that pays off. Like, you might in the short term get some really big wins, make money, but like you said, all you have is reputation.

Yeah, so yeah, but I think though that's that though we are working senior positions, so, so that if you focus on that and eventually you get one senior job and another senior job and another senior job, you are working the senior market. Um, but you have to just basically make that decision just to stop, pivot, and go and do it.

So just, just because we're focusing on that just for a sec then because I think this would be interesting. So you— so before I've— if you've got someone that's like told you about who they've always admired, I know so-and-so over there actually, which is why I've heard great things. When you say take them to market, like what does that look like?

So we will typically across their target companies, so they'll— so they might give us 3 companies, you know, and then, and then, and then I say great, you know, I've got 2 others as well. So So then we've got 5 companies to basically go after. I will then go back to them and basically update them, right? So like this target number 1, this bank you wanted to speak to is not hiring for a VP of ServiceNow, for argument's sake. This is the person who is in the position. They've been there for 4 years. They're not going anywhere for now. That's a no-go. Option number 2, their VP has just left. Great. That is a possibility. Are you comfortable with us approaching them on your behalf, talking about you on a no-name basis and no-company basis? And if so, would you be open to having an informal conversation with them? They'd normally say yes, right? Like, it's— the US IT market is, is, is, is very fluid, right? They, they, they know that they're a hot commodity. They know that the salaries are rising every single year, and they're all typically open to moving. Most, most US IT people move every 12 months to 3 years to basically catch the salary curve. Um, so all this is, is, is, is quite common.

So I say yes, Michael, I'm open to that. How are you then getting in front of them? Sorry, uh, how, uh, so you said, so you've done the research. Yeah, I really like that, that's really helpful.

Yeah.

Looking at these companies, I've actually seen so-and-so recently left, might be in the market for someone like you. Like you just said, yeah, got your permission, would you be able to do an informal chat? How will you then go into that, that company?

You to get into them?

Yeah, yeah, brilliant. How are you then going to potentially set up that informal meeting?

Yeah, so when I started Unico, yeah, um, I hadn't, I hadn't actually recruited myself in about 6 years. Um, and when I first sat down, I actually tried to use my old methods from 6 years ago. Inside a week, I've got complete crickets. Nobody answered the phone to me, nobody replied to my email.

What was old methods? Let's just get your opinion on that.

So when I first moved to America, it was very like, you know, you, you got a job board lead typically, right? And then you got your points of contact, you basically hammered them with emails. Right now you're just expecting, inspecting, like a typical leads process, right? And it worked 10 years ago, you know, you know, people, people replied because, because, because the skill set was in such high demand, um, and people almost kind of forgot like the actual basics of, of recruitment, like, you know, getting proper leads and being creative and basic things like flipping candidate calls to client calls and getting references and beating the references. Um, so I quickly realized after a week that that's not going to work. Um, and to this day I'm pretty sure that from emails I haven't got a positive response from a client, really, to say, you know, yes Michael, I am hiring, you know, let's, let's speak. Um, and think about it, I actually tested it. My, my clients on average get 300 to 600 emails a day, some of them, and the spam filter catches 200 to 400 emails. Emails a day. So why would my little email that says about selling in this amazing VP of ServiceNow suddenly just flag their attention out of 400 emails? It's crazy. Um, so, um, I basically designed it that— then I've got to take a step back again. I've got to design this properly in the modern day, not losing the basics of staffing or, or trying to reinvent recruitment. I'm trying to just do it better. So the best investment I made was the Hoxo course. Yeah, I guess, um, I'm, I'm I wasn't good at branding. I definitely wasn't good at LinkedIn posting, never did it before really because I was managing large teams. Best money I've spent. Um, I basically used that as the cornerstone of my BD strategy and I layered in like typical contract BD strategy and that's what's kind of formed our BD plan. So back to your question about, about, about the point of contact, I would obviously, you know, connect with them if not already. Once I connect with them, I'm, I'm voicenoting them every day. Every day I'm looking at my new connections and voicenoting senior people. And the voice note though is done in a very particular way where it creates intrigue, it creates interest. I'm complimenting them. I say my response rate is about 70%, but I'm also commenting a lot on their posts, um, because every time I do that, it flags up on their notifications.

And these are the people that you could potentially take this VP of ServiceNow.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like C-suite, the VPs of companies. I'm basically obviously gonna, you know, taking my, my candidate to market, um, I basically put in Michael Green and Unico all over their LinkedIn. People all day are on their phone, right, on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is like Instagram but for business. Uh, people hate email, they love social media. So it's, um, Michael Green is all over him suddenly. I'm, I'm I'm there on their profile, I'm, I'm there on the, on the, on the notifications. But my comments aren't just like, you know, great job or congratulations. It's an actual meaningful comment. Often, often actually ask them a question. The second that they reply to your comment or like your comment, you're in. Um, I'm of course doing, uh, doing cold calling. Um, a really good cold call to a mobile phone works. Like, I would say LinkedIn is our front and center. Um, but then the phone is, is, is definitely number 2. Text messages, um, to get hold of them. Um, if all that fails, um, we are also using different, uh, communication streams. Like Slack is, is so effective now. Uh, Teams calling is actually effective. But once all the kind of normal, you know, one-direction outreach fails, I'm getting creative with it. So I'm a big believer in 6 degrees of of separation. So, so anybody who I'm trying to get after, somebody in my network can get me into that company and that person. And it's worked almost every time. And I'm basically looking, so like, yeah, who are our mutual connections? Who do I know at the company? Who used to work at the company? Who was a contractor at the company who we know? Because it's all within ServiceNow, right? Or, or worst case, the, the, uh, SaaS products in there. Um, so somebody can get me in there and somebody can make an intro for me. The second you get an intro, it gives you immediate credibility. Our sales collateral is absolutely fantastic, and I've got probably, yeah, like 30 proper detailed recommendations from like VPs of companies who are saying that Michael Green is absolutely amazing. So once I start using that as well, it gives me credibility. Um, reference calling, flipping the candidate calls that we spoke about. I'm basically using any way I can to basically get into that company that isn't just me hammering them non-stop with emails.

Yeah, nice. That's a really good picture. The other, the other part there, besides what channel you're using and stuff, is just the amount of like follow-up and it not being one voice note or two voice notes and then that being it. Like, yeah, Michael, I've tried to get our VP of ServiceNow in front of that company. And then when you say, like, what have you done so far? It's just one email, one LinkedIn voice note. I think that's, that's the other part to take. There's just the reality of it, of like how many different points of potential trying to contact them it just takes in today's world.

Yeah, but though there is a fine line with that as well. It's like, there is, um, anybody I speak to And they say about recruitment, they say, oh, I hate it because, because I get hammered every day by, you know, multiple different, different channels. For example, some, some clients say to me, well, yeah, Michael, some recruiters in the same day call me, text me, LinkedIn message me, Slack me multiple times. Like, it's just crazy. So yeah, you're right, it is. So we just basically knock it down a peg and we just space it out across multiple days.

I feel like just to round this out then, I have to ask because people might get annoyed at me if I don't. Give us a flavor of this voice note. You surely expected that. Uh, we don't need a full script, like just give me a bit of a flavor. Like, because you said that that's been— you probably said it a bit earlier, but like does that sound a bit different if you've actually got someone to speak to them about? Are you sort of making them curious about someone?

I'll tell you what, um, I will I will, I will give you the basic structure, okay? All right, like the, the overview. So, um, they will, uh, like your comments, they will, um, your profile, they will connect with you, right? So every day I'm going through looking at that, and then when I voice note them, I first of all like some comments and comment on their posts. I then go and do a voice note. So you want to maximize the first minute, um, you've got 60 seconds. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, not 15 seconds, 30 seconds, try and use the whole minute. I'll start off just by, um, giving them a compliment. Um, I then start off by saying, uh, who I am and obviously what I do. Um, I break down exactly what I do, so the niche ServiceNow and the skill sets I recruit for. I basically leave it completely open-ended that I've got a great idea of how we can work together if you have any time this week, please let me know.

It's a great idea thing. That's— yeah, yeah, curiosity.

Exactly. Yeah, I'm not there just, just, just, just pitching them a candidate because, because people hate being sold to. I'm not pitching them a job because then they could say, well, actually, Michael, I'm not looking, so thank you, goodbye.

And then if you're showing up after you've looked at their profile, maybe engaged their content, they might have seen some of your content as well. That all helps. If you like— real side note then, I'll Have you heard of, um, because I didn't realize that was so core to your strategy. Have you used a tool called Condo? Have I told you about that? No, no, I'll tell you about that after. Yeah, yeah, just because I— that's been a game changer for me in terms of a tool that basically— because the LinkedIn DMs, it's just messy. But if you're doing— I didn't realize that was really core of your strategy, but with this tool, for example, you can do all the voice notes on your desktop No, great, because it's a bit annoying having to do it on your mobile phone, I feel like. So you can just smash it all out. So I'll tell you about that after. I've got a little free month that you could use. So I didn't realize it was, uh, so fundamental.

Yeah, please do.

What I just love about all of that is I just love your willingness to like just learn, like just change. Like, you— that's just what I really like about when you're on this entrepreneurial journey. You can have an idea and you can, you could, you can change things like that. Obviously your ideas aren't always going to play out, but I do think that is one of the coolest things about having your own business is like you had that idea inspired by being part of this community, got home Saturday, I was like, right, no more photograph fees, um, I, I know I can do this. And then, and then what you've changed. Yeah, I just think that's like one of the, the coolest things. But again, in your fashion, you've been very intentional about it. You've done the research, you've done all these things, and then now, like you said, as soon as you get one of those searches, what's going to happen? You're going to work your absolute socks off to make it work, be successful, and then once you've got that, then you can just build on it. And it makes things, future things, easier because you can say, I've placed so-and-so, or I've done this, I've got this track record, I've got this testimonial. And then from there— so is there, from your experience then, because your whole world would have been not operating at that level, maybe every now and again with your time at the previous, um, business, like, would you, would you think it's fair to say that there isn't really anything drastically different in terms of the recruitment process, what you do? Because I feel like there will be just some limiting beliefs behind the senior market. You've given us the strategy and what you do, but because you would have experienced so much not doing that end of the market, like, are there any drastic differences? Do you have to get a lot more patient? Things are a bit more slower? I don't know. Like, is there—

Yeah, great question. Um, everything has to be more professional, more polished, like higher quality, um, because you're dealing with senior people, experienced people. Um, it does take longer, it is a longer play often, but the fees are like 3 or 4 times the amount. So I'm basically making, you know, 3 or 4 fees in one, basically. Um, but the actual process itself doesn't really change. Like, you know, recruitment is recruitment. I mean, obviously if you're talking about, about proper retained search, yeah, fine, I would, I would, I would put that in a different bucket. But what I'm talking about is basically doing almost contingent recruitment at the search level with a real, like, elite bespoke service, and I tailor everything towards the individual or towards the company. And it's just everything we do is intended to be at the highest level. And I think kind of looping all this together is that everything we do is with intent and purpose. Like, we would never just go calling a random list of people hoping for a win. Like, it, it has to have intent and purpose. So then when we're doing that with senior people, they know that's— that Michael's serious. Yeah, Michael's good at his job, he's serious. Headhunter, he will help me find a new position.

Yeah, because I think the, the other really great thing about then operating in this part of the market, like you said, is then you're going top down. So then if you're, if you're meeting these people, you're asking great questions, you're learning what's important to them, you ask them about their career, there's then going to be opportunities like in their teams in the future. And like, if you deliver a great service, then they're going to say, yeah, well, I want to use Michael to grow my team of architects or whatever. So have you experienced some of that in terms of— because I feel like that is then also the other benefit when we go top down.

Well, yeah, that's, that's basically the strategy. We're going right to the top, um, and then just come down from there. Yeah, I'll give you an example. Um, the amount of introductions I've had, definitely in the last 12 months, is crazy. And these introductions are not just like a developer or something like, like it is, it is MDs of companies and VPs and whatever. And, um, somebody introduced me to like a serious person within the ServiceNow market who knows a lot of people, and he was impressed with Unico's pitch and he said, I know a lot of people, I'll come back to you. And he came back to me with a lady who is an ex-MD of KPMG ex-MD of Accenture, and she's now a global VP at a huge partner, and she wants out, basically, right? And he introduced us on LinkedIn, a great conversation, and now we're trying to place her. And she said, actually, Michael, I'm so glad we are speaking because I've got these 10 jobs within my current company which I can't fill. Um, I trust you, can you please help us? Like, this whole thing is just connected. Like, it, it, everything became easier the second I made that pivot. Everything. Yeah.

Did you— was it really one— has it really been one of those things where you're like, why did I not just sort of start this earlier in my career?

100%. Yeah, I think that daily about things.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. Like, like starting Unico, I kind of look back now, why, why didn't I do this 5, 10 years ago? It's, um— but yeah, you live and you learn.

You shared loads around how, like, I think you've done such a great job in breaking all of that down. So let's get into— because the other thing you've been really intentional about is you wanted to grow this business. Let's talk a bit about that. So what, like, how did you first— like, what was some of the first steps around— when I've been getting to know you, you've been very intentional about, I want to grow this business and I want to get to that. I think that's step one. I feel like you have to— if you listen to this and you're a business owner, you You have to have clarity on that, and it can't be, I'm— I think I should be doing this, I think I should be hiring, I have my own business. I've said this a few times now, and like, you can't not go on LinkedIn and see this, where you will, you will be getting message, you'll be getting content where you'll be getting told offshore, reduce your costs, AI, you don't need to pay these high salaries anymore. Like, it's never been more clearer for you to build this business, do these big fees, and not have other people in the business. Yeah, like that, that will be champion to you, Loz. So I think if you want to go on this growth journey, it's something that you need to be dead set on. It might change at some point, but I feel like if you want to do it, you have to be committed to it, and you're signing up to it, not— if we're being honest— I'm doing it because I think it will look good online, or like, it's got to be true to you. And getting to know you, this is what you want, this is what you're aiming for. So working backwards from that, because I think this is where people can learn is what did you see as some of the first steps of you building a business which will grow with it? And when you do add people to the, to the journey, that it isn't just going to be me sitting next to you and we'll figure it out. Like, clearly you've got processes, you've well thought out things, but what were some of those first steps that you think would enable you to grow with hopefully less, less pains and Talk to us a bit about that.

Yeah, so I've been very lucky in my career to have built teams up from scratch. Um, I built, uh, 2 or 3 teams my previous company from zero through to 50, and then managed a team of 100 which was already in place. Um, but I learned a lot in, in, in that experience. Um, and I know that, that for me, so my goal is simple, to get to 100 highly profitable recruitment consultants across the US. So I agree now with the philosophy that you don't need to scale through headcount, but that's why I want 100 highly profitable heads. Um, and, um, but though, to do that though, um, I need to, to build a really solid foundation today for Unico.

Yeah.

And obviously that's going to improve and change over time, but though I don't want to just go and like pile heads in today and like nothing's there, there's no infrastructure there. So right from day one, I've been really intentional about, um, about who I hire. First of all, I've made every mistake you can think of in terms of hiring people. Um, so, um, I, I had a very, very clear, like, profile of person I want to hire, and I made the, the commission plan geared towards high performance but also really attractive. Obviously draw these people in. Um, And then my actual interview process, um, took a long time to refine, but then I finally got it nailed down. But it's pretty tough to hire people.

5-stage interview.

Yeah, yeah. Um, to get my first hire, I probably interviewed 20 people, to 20 to 25 people I'd say. Um, and that wasn't me being declined, that was me mainly turning them down.

Um, so that's a 30-minute casual chat, 1-hour deep dive on experience and BD capability.

Yeah.

2-hour assessment, 30, 60, 90-day work example, meet the team. You and also Edmund, you benefit from that, and then you go through comp and close call with you. So like that, again, I think that just matches up with like you being serious. Like, I think a lot of people won't actually do that, but like, yeah, he's, he's good, he's capable, like, let's get him in, or let's get her in. Yeah.

To any founders out there or people thinking about starting up, I think the most important thing first of all is that go-to-market I talked about earlier. But the second thing is then about who you hire. Because if you make some bad hires, especially initially, it's going to cripple your culture. It's going to suck up all of your time trying to coach them and trying to get them upskilled quickly and making deals. So you've got to get those first hires absolutely nailed. So I spent ages again, like, you know, getting the right profile, the right screening process, and then obviously pulling the trigger. So that was really important.

Yeah.

But then when they start though, you then what? Uh, so that— so then I created a, a, a really detailed 12-week training plan.

Mhm.

Um, and most of my hires are experienced hires, so even though it covers everything, they do a self-assessment before they join, and we basically miss out anything that they are super comfortable with. Let's say that I've hired a half-million-dollar biller. I would hope that that person knows how to qualify a candidate, right? So we don't need to go through that typically. Um, it's really about me teaching them about the Unico specifics. The BD strategy is probably different, um, what our value prop is, and then the bits that they want help on, we then really focus around that. Um, but that has taken a long time to tweak. Like, my first, my first version of it was terrible. I've now got to the point where it's now pretty slick, pretty effective. Obviously, I'm partnered with Hector, which has been absolutely fantastic. Feedback's been great. But though I was, I was, I was again in intentional on doing that because, because, because, because, because I need a good L&D background to make me a good reputable company to hire the best talent. I can't just say, well, it's just me winging it every day, you know, for the training.

Yeah, I think we, we, we like start— I think this is why, like I said to you, like, really respect— and I said this to you, didn't I? Like, even in the sales process before we even started working together, like, you basically committed to working with us before you even had anyone in the business. Yeah, and like, and you already had some really good stuff that you already had built that you spent time on. So again, I think that's just a really good example of like your actions speaking louder than words in terms of like, this is what we're doing versus we'll worry about this stuff when I've got 5 people in the business, right? Yeah. So then how else are you thinking about this now? Because we're starting to build a bit of a nucleus. Yeah. Like, do— what is the, the next stage? Is it— are you just really focusing on Again, with, with our approach here being profitability per head and that, and high performance being the North Star, is it really like, we're in no rush here, we've got nucleus of people.

Yeah.

Is it like really get them really good before we even think about adding more people? Like, how are we then thinking about keep going in the right direction without maybe having those teething issues of adding people too quickly? Or like, because that is going to be the next stage for you, isn't that? Because A lot of people I've sat down with here, I think I was saying to you on the way over here, it seems like when I was— there's loads of reasons for this, but I think sometimes where recruitment companies can go wrong is they hire people— might not have all of this like you have, but they hire people because there's enough demand there and then, and it isn't very data-driven.

Yeah.

And then it's like, oh shit, the demand's gone, we hired too many people. Do you know what I mean? You must be thinking about that, and I'm sure you have, what the 100 is. I've asked that question to a lot of people. Not everyone has been able to really figure that out because it is a hard thing to be really dead set on in terms of when do we hire, when do we not hire.

100%, yeah. So the way that I tackle it is that I know that my end goal is 100 happy, profitable consultants, right? When that is doesn't really matter to me, right? Ideally, I want to retire at 50. Um, but though if that extends, extends, right? But I then do it in, in 90-day sprints. So, um, and I will only hire once my current employees are profitable and then pulling jobs and they're making deals. Um, and then I will still follow my same, um, hiring process as before. So if that takes longer, it takes longer. I'm not in some like mad rush where I have to have, you know, 20 heads by this day, so I must 30 by this date. I want to grow and I want to grow quickly, but I have to do it responsibly because if I don't, I'll fail my current employees and fail myself as well, right? So it's about, it's about, it's about bringing the right people in and getting them up to speed quickly. So for example, between now and the end of 2025, my goal is simply to do £1.5 million of GP and to finish on 6 heads including me. Right? So then I've got one more person to hire. Basically wanted that person to start on the 29th. It hasn't happened, okay? It will happen mid-October, worst case start November. But, um, and then I'll stop hiring, um, and then, and then, and then all of my attention and focus is on those people because I don't want to just churn and burn people. I've done that in the past and it's a horrible, miserable experience for everybody. A lot of time goes into it, a lot of money goes into it. I spent so much time finding the right people and the best people, I've then got to put the time and energy into developing them to be superstars, achieving all of their goals and dreams. So, um, we're gonna get all those people upskilled, then bring a new group in, then a new group, and we're gonna get to 100 heads.

Don't have to give us like the proper, proper particulars. I think what might be helpful is like, how have you— and you still might be figuring this out as you go on this journey, but that 90-day profitability piece, like, how have you viewed that? Like, what, what are the sort of milestones? Is it their first 360 deal? Is it— do you know what I mean? What are the sort of milestones there, out of interest?

Yeah, so, um, I'm hiring people for the long term, um, and I know that some people take slightly longer than others. It obviously depends how much experience they've got, what markets they've come from. If you're coming from like a non- it market, sometimes that, that change could be massive. Um, so of course we have goals for 90 days. They have a ramp-up target, starts fairly low and ramps up to 90 days, and that's basically based on, uh, all inputs. Basically what I care about is their attitude and their work ethic, and can they get a result? It might not be a deal, but they— can they get some jobs in, some clients in? Um, I do look for them to do a 360 deal inside 12 weeks. Um, if it doesn't happen though, as long as the actual inputs are there, it's going to happen the next month, right? But because, because we're building it for the long term, um, and I don't want to have a high attrition rate, um, I want to spend the time to get the people upskilled properly. I think that we, um, one thing I'm really big on for Unico is, is putting our people first. So I see a lot of recruitment companies in America who put revenue first, clients second, their people last. And you hear all these horror stories about, you know, comp being slashed and they're treated terribly and there's no training. And well, my philosophy is the opposite. If I put the people first and invest in them, the clients will be happy because they are getting a Grade A service. Then the revenue will come after that.

Sounds simple, doesn't it? But it's staying disciplined with like the stuff earlier. Interviewing 25 people to get one, and every— it's everything else, isn't it? It is all the, the things that, um, add up. I think, like, like I said, I think that's— that is going to be the, the hard part now of like staying committed to all of that. How have you— how have you approached like finding these people along with everything else? That's hard. That must be hard.

Yeah, it is, it is.

Have you ended up going down the direct route or leverage?

Yeah, yeah. So when I started Unico, I said, well, you know, I'm a great recruiter, I can, I can find these people. Um, it turns out that finding really good recruitment people is, is really hard. Um, it almost feels like a different type of recruitment to what I do. Um, but it's also really time intensive.

So that's what I was thinking with everything else you've done.

Yeah, so I basically took the plunge and said, right, I will get a rec to rec because by the time I save, so I pay them what, you know, $12,000, $15,000 say, but the time I save, I could make $50,000 or $100,000. So I'm netting out $85,000, right? And so it's, for me, that is money well spent. But now as I go and transition into 2026, I'm looking to really nail my EVP and my talent acquisition strategy. And maybe I actually hire somebody in to come and do that, or at least part-time.

Um, because it is so time intensive, isn't that? Like, to get the 25 interviews, be interested what the data is on like number of LinkedIn messages, number of calls to get those 25 interviews, probably quite a lot.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But though I've also found though, by, by using a rec to rec, I can really hold them accountable and really grill them on their candidates and why they're good. And if I'm not ensure I can kind of bounce ideas back and forwards. And to be fair to them, they've done a great job where sometimes I've actually declined somebody and they've actually looked into it and pushed back. And I've actually ended up hiring one or two of them, right? And they're turning out absolutely fantastic. So again, it comes back to just, just you as a founder and your own thoughts sometimes isn't the best approach. It's a bit like recruiter, but they're kind of sat there, those other founders discussing fees. Helped me to pivot towards bigger fees. Using this rec-to-rec who I really trust, really like, um, has actually helped me hire two really fantastic people who at first I might have not hired.

Yeah, I really, really— I think again, that sort of like respect you for having the humility there to again like be like, actually, you know what, maybe I don't know it all, let's, let's see if we can get—

I don't know it all, but that's the beauty of it though. Yeah, like I, I I learn best from, from just talking to as many people as I can and taking their ideas and making it my own.

So you're just talking a bit about it there, like, to round this out, what is it— because I know you would have— you're— I mean, you're in it now, but what is it that you're really staying top of mind with in terms of doubling down on, staying focused with, just really focus on executing? That you feel like is really going to ensure you hitting the £1.5 million goal, year-end, year-two strong? Like, what is it that you're just really staying focused on?

Yeah, so, um, bearing any, any disaster, we will hit £1.5 million this year. The pipeline's there. I will definitely get my final person hired. All the people who I have hired today are doing fantastic. Um, it's really not now, looking forward to 2026. Um, so I'll be back in England, spending time business planning for 2026. But I know that our go-to-market now and our value prop is absolutely nailed on. We are getting a lot of business, we're actually turning some business away, we're on track. So what I'm gonna look to double down on is I need to get a coach personally that's gonna really, really push me on to be the best which I can be. I need like operational support, so start with a VA maybe and go from there. But I'm really looking to double down on our talent acquisition strategy, bringing the best people as and when I need them. I need to keep the pipeline constant because it is so hard.

Yeah, you can't stop. Anyway, it's hard. Like, you obviously got to be sensible and make sure you then actually go ahead and hire these people at the right time. But I feel like, as we said, it can be so hard. It's just something that you've got to consistently be doing, isn't that?

Yeah, I'm going to double down on, um, on our training and our sales playbook. So I've got the framework, it just needs to be really kind of honed in so then one day I can give it to one of our new employees and it just clicks and makes sense. Of course, they need training still and developing, but that playbook for me is really important. Um, and I've mentioned earlier what, what kind of really kick-started, uh, Unico was the Hoxo course. So I'm now going to double down on marketing. Like, how do I take my LinkedIn posts, which I get loads of inbound leads from, I get loads of impressions and engagements, but how do I now go and take that to the next level? Um, and I'm really focused around that as well. So I think between the right go-to-market, hiring the right people, and layering in some of these bigger factors like marketing and, um, the sales playbook and the coaching, we can really push on in 2026.

Sounds like you got your 2026 plan already.

That sounds like we're getting there bit by bit.

Look, I think like genuinely, I— and I mean, I want to say, I think I meet a lot of founders, but I think honestly it's like, just, just love to see that there's a lot of people that say I want to achieve this, have ambitions around this, and then when you delve into it and I get to know these people, sometimes the actions don't quite match up. And, um, I've just really respected that about how you've approached this journey. You've obviously taken it very seriously, hold yourself to a high account, and that is hard when you're a solo founder. Under. Like, it just is. There's no one— I know you've got the RecruitHub community where I'm sure sometimes it motivates you when you see these other people putting in the deals, like, hang on a minute, why can't I do that? But it— that, that is one of the hardest things, is like when you start this business on your own, you have to hold yourself accountable, and it's very easy to not do that some weeks. So I really, um, respect that. And then also what I just love about this journey so far, and I'm sure it will continue, is just that that willingness to keep learning, to be aware you don't have all the answers and make these powerful adjacent moves or pivots and then just figure it out. Yeah, I think that's awesome.

Yeah, let's do though. Yeah, yeah, that's it.

So really excited to see where things are in another 12 months, but I'm sure, no doubt, me and you will be catching up around this time next year, and a lot of these things that we set out to do you would have achieved, or you're going to be well on your way. So, um, really appreciate sharing all that. Really shared loads of great strategies for people. So thanks a lot for, uh, coming on the pod.

Amazing. Thank you very, very much.