Is Something Lost? with Guest Travis Greene | Ron + Hope: Unfiltered

Hey, everybody, it's Ron in Hope Unfiltered. And you can see that the Hope part, the better part, is not here. So you're just going to have to deal with me today. This is as good as it's going to get. She's easier to listen to. She's certainly easier to look at. But every once in a while, with her schedule in mind, we have to do something a little different. So those of you that just love seeing me and Hope go back and forth at each other, we'll get you back with that in the next week or so. But I got a really special guest, and I got something I've been wanting to do. I've been wanting to talk to this guy, man, for some time. I believe in him. I've watched his life. I'm impressed by him. I think he's pulled something off that very few people can do. He has operated at a high level as an artist, as a worship leader, as a musician, and now operating at a high level as a pastor and as a leader. And I haven't seen many people pull that off successfully. I've seen people try. I've seen people attempt. But to function in and out of those worlds and do it at a high level, that's a rare breed. And so I just am excited for the next few minutes. We're probably going to kid around a little bit, probably talk about some very substantive things, because I just got some questions I want to ask him. And Gage kind of scratch away at what he thinks, what he knows, what he's seen, what he's experienced, and where he thinks we're going. So you guys hang around. It's Ron and Hope unfiltered, real, raw and relevant. And today, my special guest is my friend, first of all, and then my very respected pastor, Travis Green. What up, man?

Hey, man, listen, I'm pumped to be on the show. This is a hit show, man. Everybody's trying to get on this show.

You know what? We haven't had many guests, quite honestly, because it's the one time me and Hope get to just shoot from the hip and we just cut up. And I kind of give everybody insight into what my marriage is like and what my home is like, and it's a lot of fun. I've told people. When I first came up with the idea of podcast, I wasn't sure, you know, because, like, everybody's trying to do it, but after I got to doing it, it became one of the most enjoyable things I do. So whenever we can't be Together I try to go out and grab guys like you and bring them in and let's just have some talk. How are things going in your world? First of all, it's the talk of.

Time, you know, every. It's the talk of time. Every green room, you know, that's what they're talking about out here in the street. They're like, have you been on unfiltered yet? Have you been on.

We trying, man, we trying. How's your world? Tell me what's going on with you right quick.

Oh man, I'm having fun, man. I'm raising these three boys. I got a 10 year old now, 7 year old and a 5 year.

Old and so that makes me tired just hearing that.

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm a father so I ain't got to the part where I have to do anything yet. I still just kind of hang out.

Well, you kind of like me. We had three under the age of four, so it was like every, you know, like every 14, every 15 months we were popping a new one out and I think everything was pretty cool till they got to be all teenagers, about to be all teenagers. You kind of have to get saved every day. You know how that kind of works. So anyway, hopefully it won't be that way with you, but mine certainly knew how to test me a little bit in Jesus name. It won't be that way. You're a great dad. I.

Boys good? Yeah, the boys are good, wife is good, church is good, life is good. And just trying to remain consistent, man. And, and keep reminding myself it's a marathon, not a sprint. I want, I want to finish as strong as I start or stronger than I start, you know, and so that's, that's what page I'm on, man.

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you, Pastor?

I'm 40. I'm 40. This is my 40th year. I turned 40. Turn 40 in January. I'm 40. 40 years old, man.

40 to 50. 40 to 50 was probably when I changed my thinking the most drastically. 40 to 50 was very influential years in my life because you start already identifying what you're not doing right. You've had enough time by the time you're 40 to start recognizing your mistakes and becoming self aware. At 30, I'm not sure anybody could tell me anything because I was kind of rebelling against the system. I come out of a system and I was kicking against the system. Every day you wake up swinging at somebody, right? By the time you're 40 you get tired of swinging, and you start falling in love with peace. You know, I'm like, I can't get up and fight every day. I love my peace. And 40 and 50 was a really good spot. And then a while back, I'll just throw this out there, because I told you, we're shooting from the hip. Bishop Tudor Bismarck came up to me a while back in a green room, and he looked at me. He said, ron, he said, I just need to speak this word to you. He said, I feel like it's the word of the Lord. He said that you are going to see more fruit from the ages 55 to 65 than the entire rest of your ministry combined.

Good Lord.

And So I'm now 56.

You're 73, right?

Yeah. I'm one year into that prophecy, and a lot of those things are already happening. And like you, man, we're in a good place. My kids are great. Everybody's on staff here at the church. We work together, we live together. My grandkids are amazing. My wife is beautiful, and we're doing things we've always dreamed of doing. I wouldn't trade places with nobody, man. God is good.

Yeah.

God is good. Do we have struggles? Do we have fights? Yeah. But God is good, for sure. I just thank him. Here's what guys out in our podcast family, I told Pastor Travis right before we got on, I said, I want to pick your brain. I'm a weird age in the kingdom. I've had mentors like Bishop Jakes and others tell me over and over, I really don't belong to a generation. I'm kind of smashed between two, you know, the great faith teachers, the Copelands and the Murdochs. And then you got your preachers, like your Jakeses, and even in his day, your Bishop Eddie Longs and the Parsleys, they were all one generation. I call them the TBN generation, kind of. And they. They led the media front. And then, you know, you got your millennials, which was your social media generation. And I'm, you know, I'm not in my 40s, and I'm not in my 60s and 70s. I'm in my 50s, and. And I can name three or four guys that kind are in that area. But I'm. It is kind of like I'm a hybrid. It's kind of like I'm a hybrid. That's so true. And so I wanted to ask you, I tell people, I say, you know, the millennials are now emerging as the top leaders, and the voices and the gatekeepers in the kingdom, at least in America. And I just wanted to ask some of you guys, you know, what do you think we're doing right? And then go into, has anything gotten lost? I have some of my thoughts, but my thoughts are coming from a guy smashed in the middle. I want to hear from a guy smash, straight out of your generation, because I believe you're presence driven. I really respect that about you. But I also see you're a builder. I really respect that about you. And I see a lot of those same things in me. I want to build. I want to build great. I want to represent Jesus with excellence. But I don't want to forget why I'm building, and I don't want to forget who I'm building for. And I'm a very principled person. And old school things like character, integrity, holiness, the presence of God, man, they still mean a lot.

Absolutely.

They still mean. They mean everything to me. And so people get to hear me talk about it because my convictions run deep. But tell me, you have a lot of guys in your circle. I know a lot of the same people you do. I may not be as close to them as you are. What do you think we're doing right?

Speaking of your generation. Correct.

No, yours.

Oh, what. What is my generation doing right?

What do you think we're doing right?

I think, I think our, Our compassion is. Is. Is on par. Grace.

Grace.

Yeah. Grace is there, I think, crossing some of the cultural boundaries.

Yep.

This, this day is more diverse than it's ever been in America, but our audience is more diverse than it's ever been. And I'm not just talking about race, I'm talking about palette. You know, the playlist is way different. When I grew up, you know, you only, you know, back, back when I grew up in the, in the, in the late 80s, early 90s, you know, I'm in the age. I remember when the first CDs came out. That's my generation. You know, I remember my mother had a luxury car. She had a Lexus. And in her luxury Lexus, you had a, A disc player in the back where you, you could choose wisely. Six discs. And whatever you chose, you're gonna be stuck with that on your road trip. But every disc was. I mean, I remember him. I remember him. It was C.C. beebe. It was, it was John P. Key.

Right.

It was wild 98. It was, you know, I mean, I remember the CDs I helped choose. It was Jelanda Adams, it was Fred, and so it was Kirk. And that was It. And the only thing we listened to, I came up in a holiness, you know, Pentecostal holiness household. It was just, you know, there were no blur lines. It was anything that was not gospel. It wasn't Jesus was what they called the blues back then. And so. And that was the same for the whole church, the entire church. The only thing everybody listened to was, you know, church music. Half the songs, we never even knew who created them. It was just going up beyond the. I don't know who wrote that song Be Steadfast. I don't know who wrote that song. You know, it just that we sung at church. Put your time in paydays coming out the wild. I have no idea who authored that. Now, the difference in this generation is their playlist is diverse. They're listening to Elevation. They're listening to Red. Some of them still may listen to Travis. I'm an old guy now. They're listening to Maverick. And also on the same playlist is Drake. Also on the same playlist is Kendrick Lamar, is Beyonce, you know, and so their intake is just way more diverse. Their access is way more open than it's ever been. So I think some of the things we're doing right is we're still reaching them. They're still hungry for something new, I think right on. Right in parallel with that one thing, or in contrast, rather, with that, that we're doing wrong. I think we've catered a little too much to being seeker friendly. I think we've catered a little too much for being relevant and not necessarily being righteous, for being accessible. Hey, Jesus was accessible. But he still, he spoke in such a way that it was like, oh, this isn't attainable in my own strength. I think we've simplified it a little too much to where, man, people think that grace is a trampoline. And although I think, you know, we've done a great job of, like, hey, man, he loves you. The cross is for everyone. There's no discrimination at Calvary. At the same time, you know, there is a standard of holiness at the same time, you know, true repentance, you know, and the true contrary heart is what he's drawn to. Not just, hey, I'm gonna pretend, you know, I'm gonna play church. I'm just so. I think those are things we could do better. I, I, I'm very, I'm very burdened on how we define success. We. We think I, I'm in one group, and the one time I didn't respond is after Easter because everybody was talking about how many people they had and how many people got saved. And it was such a. Ah, it just. It tasted nasty to me. I'm like, you know, man, I love that. What church isn't packed on these churches?

Exactly.

You don't get extra packed on that.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, you know, that number doesn't mean anything. And so. But the way we've just defined success as our influence in terms of our social media followers are the size of our staff or the size of our, you know, the square footage of our home. And I, I'm. I'll be hypocrite if I. This is not me preaching anti prosperity. I want to be blessed. I've been broke. I've been paid. I like being paid better.

I do too.

I like options. I like eating at nice restaurants more. Wait, more than McDonald's. I'm so bougie now. I can't even eat fast food. So don't, don't misquote me on what I'm saying.

I get you.

However, success has never been about what you can acquire. It's always been about kingdom. Success has one definition, and that's obedience. So I think that we've dropped the ball there on, like, in a major way in preaching. And only preaching something that only works in America, it doesn't work in Africa that God, the blessings of the Lord only looks like this. You know, sometimes you can. You cannot have, but you have more peace than someone who has. So who's more blessed? Who's more blessed? The people in Hollywood that commit suicide are the. The pastor who's struggling but raising his family and love, you know? You know, so for me, I think that's another thing that I'll be critical on of how we define success. I mean, you're right. I know a lot of guys who are out here now, both in music and. And, you know, with major preaching platforms, but they're alcoholics, so I don't really call that success.

Right.

And I'm not. Again, I'm not trying to be critical, but I do have to be honest about, you know, where I think we could do better at.

You know what, man? I love your candor. I'm grateful for that. You've actually surprised me with a couple of your responses. The success thing. I'm a kingdom guy. Yeah. I'm a big time kingdom guy. I'm obsessed with leaks out of my pores. I don't care what topic I'm preaching, I'll end up there. And the blessing of the Lord was never an action It's a thing. It's not used in verb form, it's used in noun form. It's a thing that God puts on you. And it does not manifest just in monetary things. I'm blessed. You know, I'm blessed in a room. I'm blessed when I negotiate. I believe I walk in a room and have advantages because of the blessing of God on my life. It doesn't end up in what kind of car is in my garage. It is not manifest like that. And I just feel like, honestly, blessing as far as material things is really a byproduct of chasing the right thing. If you chase righteousness and kingdom principles, he just throws stuff at you. I told people this not long ago. I said, pastor Travis, the more I understand the kingdom, the less I pray about stuff.

Yes, agreed.

Used to be if you heard 30 year old Ron, I could pray you come in my sanctuary on Saturday night. I'm peeling the paint off the wall, man. I mean, I'm Elijah, I'm crying out, I'm calling down fire, but I'm praying about a lot of stuff. We don't have this. Lord, bring this, Lord, bring this in. And Lord, I'm just believing right now. I'm decreeing and declaring. And now, since over the years I have understood the keys of the kingdom, very rarely do I pray about stuff.

Yes.

And I do think people have to really get ahold of defining success as numbers, clicks, money. And I had a company, you know, I have companies all the time. You know, your Facebook's way out in front of your Instagram. You're 2 million on Facebook, but you got 300,000 on Instagram. We want to help you get. I looked at them, I said, I said, I know how to get it up. They're like, well, why aren't you doing it? I said, because a lot of it takes foolishness. And they didn't know what to say. And I said, y' all don't understand my value system. I said, I would rather walk in a room and be respected than be popular.

Yes.

I remember guys when I was 20, they walked in a room and there was such a weight on their life. You bowed your head and you couldn't even look them in the eye.

Yes.

That's what I want to do. When I walk in a room, I don't want them to remember my last stupid video. Does that make sense? You know what I'm talking about. That may make me sound a little bit ancient and out of touch, but I still want to be the guy that Walks in the room and a weight of glory walks in the room with him. And you can change an atmosphere just because you entered it. You hadn't preached, you hadn't sung, you hadn't done anything. You just showed up and the room changed. I still value things like that, and I really appreciate your candor. Let me throw something at you. I'm going to put you on the spot, all right, not being critical, but there is some things. By being apostolic and prophetic and a lot of different roles that I have played in the kingdom, I got a little bit of time in my rearview mirror now, and I think the more time you live, you get to assess better because you've had a myriad of experiences I never wanted. I caught a lot of criticism for my approach to ministry from the old guard. And I always promised myself, you know, when I get to a person who's got a few years on him, I don't want to be the guy turning around and being critical. I don't want to be that guy because I remember how it felt, because I was genuine. I just wasn't doing it their way. And I called, excuse me, hell for that. I really did. My first battle was against my own people. And I don't want to be the guy. He's 50, getting close to 60, and now he's turning back. I don't want to be him. But here's something I did, you know, a lot of these guys because actually a lot of our production guys from our churches have worked together many times. So I'm not going to call their name, but you know who they are. We were taken some of our production guys from the east coast campus to the West Coast a while back. And sometime when we have conferences, you know, I have to mix the people up to get the best team. And I don't get to fly with these guys and travel with them a lot. So I had three of them there with me, you know, all three of them. And so we had a layover in Denver and I said, come on, guys, we're going to be here two or three hours. When we get there, only thing that's going to be open is drive thru. I said, let me take you out to dinner. Let's get a good meal. So we went, everybody ordered, and then we sit there. And I said, all right, I'm going to pick their brain a little bit. I said, guys, I said, you're in need, you're married. Your wife just got a terrible report. Nothing the doctors can do. You need a miracle. If this Thing don't. If God don't do it, it's not going to happen. You need the anointing that destroys the yoke, removes the burden. You need somebody that knows the authority of the name of Jesus. I said, the pastor's got to be under 45. Where are you taking your wife this Sunday? Whoa. When I said that Travis and all these guys are connected. They know everybody.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Crickets.

Wow.

My generation, my dad's generation. I could have clicked you 50 names right off the top of my head.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Have we lost something?

Yes.

I mean, I thought that was very telling. Two of these guys are in their 20s, one of them's in their 30s.

Yeah.

I said, all right, you need a miracle. Where are you going? And I never got an answer.

Yeah.

And the fact that there was even a pause is not good.

They could come. They could come to Ford City. I know a God.

There's some churches in there. But the thing was, it was. Let me stop and think. Yeah.

It didn't come fast.

Exactly. And. Exactly. And if I would have been 30 years old and you'd asked me that, I said, man, I'm going to boom, boom, boom, boom. And that didn't happen. So I know we're big into systems. I know we're big into relevance. I know we're now huge into production. That is far and away the biggest part of my payroll. Far and away. I never thought that would be the case. Yeah, but in the midst of it, are we putting 90% of our effort in production and even giving 10% back to the prayer room?

Yeah, but. Okay, here's my counter.

Talk to me, talk to me.

The counter is the people you can list that you could list early in your 30s. How many of them would you want to turn out, like, so the.

The problem is very few.

That's my point.

Very few.

So the problem is, although that list was long, those guys, they. They didn't finish strong. A lot of them didn't.

You're right.

Some of them did, but a lot of them didn't. A lot of them just, you know, the greatest revivalists, you know, especially when we talk about in California. But some of the greatest revivalists I ever walked on Earth, they.

They.

Their life ended in the crazy house or some in jail.

Dead.

Yeah, they're dead. They're out of here. You know, and even the way that they went out wasn't, you know, honorable. I just got finished. I've been reading through chronicles, and there were some kings who were so evil, they Wouldn't bury them in the City of David with the other kings. They're like, you're.

You're.

You. You finished so pathetically. And what you did in your rain was so bad, you don't deserve to wrestle with kings. And when I saw that, I was like, my God, like, what a terrible legacy. So I think when we look at the full scope, and I love my vantage point, because I'm a church boy. I was born on the pews. I don't know anything but church. I don't know the world. I don't know. I don't have cultural influences. I can't name three Drake songs right now. I don't know, and I don't care. And I mean, you know, so I'm all things church. I'm all things gospel. I'm all things. But one of the reasons I didn't want a pastor is because I don't have many who I want to turn out like, you know, So I have the. The opposite. It's not just who's under 45 you could take your. Your dying wife to. It's. It's who's over 45 that you want to end up like. And that list is. Is short, man. There are not a lot of you guys who have. Are especially above you who. Who finished wrong, man. Their families fell apart. The money fell apart. They got caught in more scandals than we can count. And I'm again, David did, too. So I'm not saying that God's hand is not on them and they lost the blessing of the Lord. I'm just saying.

Yeah, we're not being critical. We're being objective and we're critiquing. And I'm going to tell you something. I am right there with you because I cannot tell you. I cannot tell you how many conversations I've had with God. Not judging, but, Lord, I don't know why so many of my mentors are stumbling at the finish line. I said, but, God, help me, help me. I want people to look back on Ron Carpenter and say, that dude did it right. He did it right. He made good decisions. He loved God. He kept strong boundaries in his life. Yeah, I just can't tell you what that means to me. That means so much more than clicks, life and money. It just, you know that me and my wife are in love when I'm an old man and that my grandkids want to come to my house and that, you know, that when I'm gone, somebody cried.

Somebody cried, My God.

And so I agree with you there, and the fact that. And we could probably talk forever, because I feel us rolling now, and I want to be mindful of time. A lot of the guys that I saw really operated in great lengths of power and wheelchairs stacked up and oxygen tanks laying everywhere. They were untouchable. One thing I like that you guys have done that I have really tried to emulate. I came from that generation who taught me, you need to put 15 lines of separation between you and the people. I came from that. But then, honestly, I'm not built like that. I love people.

Nor would Jesus built like that.

No, I love people. And if somebody wants to talk to me, come here. If somebody wants me to write in their Bible, bring me their Bible. You know, I'm that guy. And so that never came natural to me. And I kind of stopped it before it started. It's one thing I love about what I believe the millennial leaders have done is they put blue jeans on the pastor and made him somewhat approachable again. You know, I have been around some of these guys that were power guys, and when they walked down the highway, I remember you had to turn around and face the wall. I mean, I've been in the room where that happened. Now some crazy miracles would start happening. But, you know, now that same guy, him and his wife live on two different coasts. I don't even think they speak. And so you're right. How can. How can you.

Before this question, before this question, Pastor, my angle is the reason why I believe we've gone so far left is because of the trauma of what we've seen. It's the parents now. It's the gentle parenting, which I think is a travesty because it's anti biblical. But the purpose of it, though, is because we were abused. So it's like, you know, when you come from people, when your mom, you know, we laugh about this stuff, but an extension cord and beating you with a branch is insane. Like, was it 12 Years a Slave? Like, what are we doing? So it's like. But at the same time telling little Timmy to stand in the corner, like, the dude is going to end up in prison because he's never had a real consequence in his life. So there has to be a balance between the two. And I think it's the same with the new school pastors. It's like, man, we've seen our forefathers steal. They stole money. We've seen, man, I can't tell you how me. This ain't hearsay. She say, he say, I can't tell you how many pastors I've served under and we're talking more than I can probably name four. I can name five right now that over the past 20 years I saw with my own eyes cheating with their wife that I served under, that I served under, that I know they had a girlfriend that I know they. Some of them aren't married. Some of them were able to work it out. I'm talking about pastors with mega churches or pastors with growing churches that I was their music director that had side chicks, you know, so you're talking to someone who's seen. But man, when they went out like Samson, boy, they were one. Bible says in judges, Samson took out a thousand with a drawbone himself. So these guys were slaying them out, man. They were laying them out and then eventually they shook themselves like Samson. It was no more. So for me, I think what you're seeing now, you are seeing guys who are like, so we have taken it too far. Or they have. I haven't, but we're taking it too far. Just like, oh man, let's not even talk about miracles. Let's not talk about signs and wonders, let's not talk about offerings, let's not talk about homosexuality, let's just not talk about anything but come and smile because the guys talked about all of that didn't end well. And so if that's what it takes, then I'm just going to tell Timmy to sit in the corner rather than be abusive. And I think that's what we're seeing is we're traumatized, man.

I was a part of that. I was a part of that, but I rebelled against it. People asked me one time, said, pastor Ron, you a hard dude to figure out. I was like, why is that? Said you just never belong to a tribe. And I said, you're right. And it's a double edged sword. I said, it's kept me very lonely. I said, but I think it's preserved who I really am. Because to be a part of a tribe, you have to become like the tribe. And I never fully embraced what I saw. I wanted the presence of God. I wanted to see the miracle signs and wonders. But all of that existential craziness, I saw it too. I saw deals going down with the offering back there in the green room that made me think lightning was about to strike the room. I mean, I was like moving out of the way. I mean, I thought somebody was going to catch on fire. And to be honest with you, my primitive hyper holiness background, that Stuff messed with me because I was man, if they drove anything in me, it was about being pure. I mean, them people just drove that stuff in me. And then I finally got in these rooms and I'm hearing this stuff that messed you up. Yeah. And then in my own church, I had a lady who helped us, kind of being a nanny. She was not a young lady, she was in her 60s. And one day she was there on a Monday, on my day off. And we just sat down, I came in and I said, just talk to a minute. We had a cup of coffee, me and Hope with her, and she started telling me her story and she started crying. And three major, major pastors in that region had personally took her to get an abortion after they got her pregnant. And she stood there with tears running down her face. Now, you got to understand, I ain't never been around this. I ain't never heard stuff like this. And so I'm sitting there hearing her story and I said, you know what? There's an underbelly culture going on that I've never been a part of. And for whatever reason, God has preserved me from it. And I don't want to know nothing about it. I don't want to be a part of it. But I've told people many times, don't be critical of the millennial pastors that have gone too far because that hyper seeker sensitive is because they saw a previous generation go wacko. Yep.

They don't know where that balance is because they're scared. They're not even. Here's the thing about most of the guys in my generation, if not all, I mean, any guy of significance for my generation, you may be shocked to know that, I mean, you know this, but most people, your listeners may not know anyone who you think is a famous preacher and like, are killing. They're all Pentecostal.

They are hardcore.

All of their dads are Pentecostal. They're all either Assemblies of God, Church of God, like Church of God of Christ. Like, they're, they're hard, all of them apostolic. They're all holiness and they're all spirit filled. They just don't do it on stage. I mean, I can't tell you, man, these guys are like, so. But so I think the resistance to like fully going there publicly is because of man.

That.

Yeah, you know, that's the talk. It's like, man, none of these guys finished. So maybe let's just try something different. And I'm just, I think, you know, it's funny, I'm just I'm a hybrid of 2. I'm a hybrid of, like, culture and engaging it and like, you know, being helped, being cool enough to be, you know, wherever. But I'm also all things. Like, you come, you, you slide up in Ford City, you're gonna get that. Holy Ghost. I just. That's what I know is where I'm at. I believe in the presence of God. I've seen too much not to. I believe in miracles, signs and wonders. I believe in the Bible all the way through.

Yes.

I believe in Kingdom, you know, first and foremost. And so I am that. But I do understand. I think a part of me has compassion and understand. Amen. They're far left because what was far right was also far wrong.

You got. I got a lot of the younger guys coming in my network. It's really, really cool. A lot of guys 28, 30, 32 years old, that they're Jo in our network with churches of very different, various sizes. And I'm seeing, I think, you know, I can't give you a Google perspective, but in my limited perspective, I think there's a lot of people that think Gen Z is coming full circle, kind of back around Holy Ghost. I think the previous generation went too far, and then the next one said, we don't want. That went too far. But Gen Z has said, you know what, I want to be relatable. I want to engage culture, but I want the power of God. I don't want a form of godliness with no power. I don't want clouds with no water. I don't want to shout with no substance. I want to be a part of something that is real and spiritual. I think I'm starting to see that. And let me. We'll end with this one. I want to throw you one thing and just tell me your thoughts on it. So five years. Excuse me. Five years ago, I transitioned to the Bay Area of California. I won't bore you with statistics, but it is not a Christian place. It is the most unchurched zip code in all of America. Two years ago, it passed Seattle. Seattle used to be number one. Now the Bay Area of California is number one. 97% unreached. The 3% are Catholic. Evangelicals don't exist. I can put you in my car, drive you 100 miles and you not see a church. I go back to Greenville. There's three on every block. You know, just so it's kind of like God's gotta have a sense of humor because I'm pastoring on two different planets. The Bible Belt and the most unchurched zip code in the entire nation. And I go back and forth. So in my mind, I go out there and I say, man, these people have no church culture. They have zero religion. Zero. And they're so busy killing it, making money in the Silicon Valley, money flowing like milk and honey, that just trying to get church on their radar is going to be a challenge. So for the first time in my life, you know, I'm intensely Pentecostal. You've known me a long time. I backed off. I backed off and it, you know, it creeped along. And Travis, I was miserable. I was just miserable. Now, I've always believed in excellence. I'm a builder. I got an organizational flowchart that goes from one side of this building to the other. I'm all about that. I'm all about corporately getting my act together. But just as far as the services, man, I had dialed it back, and I don't know, I got to looking in the mirror and I'm like, this ain't me. I'm not. Four songs and a little message. I'm just not. And I just looked at my wife, I said, you know what? God didn't bring me out here to become it. God knows what he made me to be. He must have brought me out here to affect it.

Come on.

And I can't affect it if I am it.

Yes.

And so I went back to Ron Carpenter and I just started turning it loose. I mean, tell you, middle service, prophesying, cut time, laying hands, oil, every. I mean, I just started cutting it. I didn't care if they knew about it or not. And the church started exploding.

Wow.

In the most unchurched region of America, a church started exploding. I mean, this is a place where even hillsong struggled and hillsongs for years. They could get a church anywhere but San Francisco. They could not get one going in San Francisco. And so I went out there and, man, when I just said, you know what? I'm going with Holy Ghost, then all of a sudden, this building is packed. I'm just wondering, is there a hybrid generation that says, I can build my systems with excellence, I can be a relatable dude, but somebody can also get healed of cancer in the same service. You think we can pull it off?

Absolutely. And I think the reason you're able to is because you are both prophetic, but you're also intelligent. And I think that was a gap in a generation. Right. There were a lot of. Although they had power, they couldn't. They could not break down things simple enough to be understood. My mother's generation, they didn't need understanding. They had encounter. And that was enough. They didn't, they didn't need to know. You know, I mean, to the day, you know, the churches I grew up in are misquoting some of our favorite scriptures. You know, are, are just putting scriptures in the Bible. Like, he won't put more on you than you can bear. It's nowhere in Scripture. You know, several, several of those types of scriptures where it's just like. Or misquote, you know, I mean, I don't have to go through that, but so, but they had encounter. What happened was my generation came along and was like, yeah, that's cool. I, I see you. You know, I, I get it. But, you know, the emotionalism alone isn't enough. I need to actually, you know, and I know not everything in the Spirit can be explained, but, man, it would be great for you to have spent enough time with God to have a grip on this enough that I have something worth writing down. And I think the reason why, what makes it effective is because you're just not all demonstration without information. You're really offering people both is that, man, I can encounter God in a new way. And man, I felt something and I'm emotional and it's great. And Holy Spirit is pouring out. But you got to understand, in Acts 2, after the Holy Spirit came poured out and there was this great encounter, Peter got up and preached and he had something to say. He was able to quote Joel. He was able to say something to give enough explanation. We're not drunk as you suppose. And so when we have spirit filled, moved, which we do often here, I actually, you know, I know enough. I got enough theological beyond my masters in theology. I just, I've read the Bible a few times and I have enough depth and I have enough revelation to be able to also. Yeah, man, people laid out. But I can pause in the service as well and say, hey, guys, this is what it means to speak in tongues. I'm not just saying if you don't speak in tongues, you're not saved. You know, that don't work for my generation. It worked for my mom, though. It don't work for us. It's like, what do you mean that. Well, that doesn't make sense because I didn't read that in the Bible. So now we have to give word and demonstration. And so that's, that's the way that it's effective.

Yeah, a lot of the old school guys couldn't make it today because they'd be fact checked on the spot and their sermons wouldn't make it on the spot.

That's not in the Bible and that don't match. What are we talking about? And man, my kids are telling me that to my face, you know, not necessarily about the Bible, but about something. They fact checked me. They're eight years old. Is like, yeah, no, that's not true, dad. Like, what do you mean?

It'd be fact checked immediately. Man, I've been wanting to have this conversation and you're the first one I picked to have it. I've had it with some guys privately, but it's the first time publicly I really, I really do believe. It was almost like, you go holy Ghost, you lose your excellence and you scare everybody. Or we make it excellence and everybody's welcome. But if you want to know the Holy Ghost, you got to go down hall three and go in room F15. And so I'm sitting here looking at both of them and I'm saying, there's got to be something in the middle where we can run the kingdom, where it is effective and efficient and applicable to everybody, but yet give more than these ankle deep experiences where we can really disciple people and develop them in their faith and see them walk out. The strength of a relationship with God, you know, that's what I'm after, that's what I'm about. And then when I hear you and when I see you, I think you're there too, man. I really do. I think you're there and I feel a kindred spirit with you in that way. I'm going to get you out of here. What people don't know is we had technical difficulties that lasted 30 minutes before he even got started. And this man stayed right here with me. And I appreciate you having some time with me today. Look, we got a list. Again.

I've known you for a long time and I appreciate you. I appreciate your standard. I appreciate what you represent in the kingdom. You are one of the fathers of the faith that we can look to and be inspired by and say, hey man, I want to, I want to build it, I want to do it like this guy. So thank you. If no one told you, thank you recently for your integrity, for your legacy. I want you to hear from someone who's 50 years younger than you, you know, because you're definitely in your 90s. You're. No way, you're 56. But thank you, man. Thank you for who you are, what you represent and what you've done. And what you continue to do, and you continue to push it forward, you push. I mean, you were one of the first to really push production forward. You're one of the few to wave the banner of excellence and spirit. And so you've been a model for that. And I know you bore stripes for that. But I want you to know it's not in vain because there's an army of us coming behind you that have seen it, we're proud of it, we're grateful for it, and you've given us something to aspire towards.

That means a lot to me. I'm grateful for that. And, guys, here, you've heard it. I've had pastor Travis Green with me. You need to go check him out. You need to go YouTube, Instagram, and if you can drive and check out my book.

I got a brand new book.

Talk about it. Talk about it.

Yeah. So this book is called are you praying for the wrong thing?

You just sent me that. I just got that in the mail. Yeah, you just sent me that.

Yep. We just released it with Thomas Nelson a couple months ago. But really, the book is about. It's literally what you talked about, man. It's kingdom. You know, you say you stop praying for stuff, and that's what the book is about. I went through a phase where I just prayed a lot for stuff, and I prayed a lot for miracles. And there's nothing wrong with that, but the Lord exposed to me that I should shift my focus from miracles to management. I should shift my focus from stuff to strategy. And the same holy spirit that can perform a spontaneous miracle can meet you in a planning room, can help you with a budget, can help you get your house in order. And so it's not really a book on prayer. It's a book on stewardship. And I found out, man, and it's helped me. It's change the trajectory of my life. That stewardship is a magnet for the miraculous. It really is. Like management is a magnet for the supernatural. It really is. And so for me, it's been years, man, since I've knocked on the door. When God gave me this revelation, I stopped. I stopped knocking on doors and begging for next. And I just. I stewarded my present so well that the future pulled me in. And so now, literally, man, if I walk to a door, you know, it's. It's not a door with a knob on. It's an automatic door. And that's not me boasting. It's me saying I've learned the secret one of the secrets to the kingdom is the power of stewardship. And so the name of the book is, are you praying for the wrong thing? Are you praying for God to do something that he's waiting on you to do?

Man, I could go off on about 20 kingdom keys right there, and I'm having to refrain myself. But, like, God doesn't give you what you want what you want. He gives you what you've proven you can manage.

Yes.

And then when you manage on one level, he'll graduate you to the next, but not until you've managed that level. And I tell people all the time, the church has a real problem with getting more spiritual when they should get more disciplined. Yes. And so anytime, anyway, you go out and get the book, can they get it pretty much anywhere? Amazon, anywhere books or so. Yep.

Amazon, Barnes and old books books. A million anywhere books. And so are you praying for the wrong thing? Yeah.

I appreciate it, man. You're a great friend. You're a great guy, great pastor, great leader. Thank you for sharing your time with me and our family podcast today, guys. This has been Ron and Hope, but today, Ron and Travis, unfiltered, real, raw and relevant. I appreciate you giving me a little bit of your time. Until next time. Blessings on you and everything and everyone connected to you. We'll see you soon.