232. Jane Slack-Smith on renovating yourself and your wealth

It's just come from, I guess, a lifetime of learning and working with people who are investors and just seeing that sometimes there's, there's this need and for wealth and however you define wealth, but there's this, this need for having abundance or just being comfortable. And then there is a limiting belief or there's something and there's a pattern or it just keeps on happening that just when it all seems to happen, it's robbed from you. And you know, this kind of, pattern. It's this old operating system that I think a lot of people work on is actually undermining their success. My guiding light, North Star kind of premise is that the universe conspires for our success and we are the ones who get in the way of it. And I have these conversations with people about money and I ran this for my mentoring students cause I was like, you know, some of you, I'm, We're working together in getting down to the suburbs, the streets, the alerts are coming up. Like I need to understand what's going on. And so I kind of put together this Renovate Yourself, Renovate Your Wealth workshop and I ran it with them. And so we could actually see very clearly some of these money stories. And so this is really fascinating to me. And then by diving into them and going, what do you really want? What, what is, Is it a $250,000 lifestyle? If everything got taken from you tomorrow, you woke up, you're the only person alive, there's electricity and food to keep you going forever, do you want the mansion by the water or do you want the, you know, nice safe environment where you can, you know, spend your days digging up the ground and putting in a few lettuces? Do you want the Ferrari? Do you want the Gucci? You know, do you want to have that, those things that you can show others? Are you trying to validate your own worth through others? You know, for me, I've always been about getting to understand people have a life story, right? Their life is one thing, but their story is another. And so I want that to be separated. Let's understand the story that's replaying because how you do anything is how you do everything.

Welcome to the Get Invested podcast where we share great conversations with experts from all walks of life to uncover their secret know-how and where they invest their time, their skills, and their money, and the benefits that this has created. You see, the truth is that everyone invests. Every minute of every day, we're investing our time, our skills, our energy, and our money in something. Some of us are investing consciously, some unconsciously, sometimes for good, sometimes for bad, sometimes for no impact. Get Invested will help you to start living by design, not by default. I'm going to help you to make it happen, not let it happen. You will hear the top tips on how you can live with conscious intent so that you can live more, work less, and leave a living legacy by investing now. Listen to the show to discover the top tips on how to get started, make the most of your investment journey, and ultimately to be living your dream, not someone else's. More episodes can be found on iTunes or at busymartin.com.au/podcast. Get Invested. Thanks for listening, and now, let's get invested! Hi, friend and fighters! Where to now with property and investment? As we emerge from the artificially created COVID cloud and revert to more normal property conditions, with inflation and interest rates on the rise and property value growth slowing, plateauing, and in some areas declining, what lies in store for investors? As the mainstream media keeps us scared and fearful, what's changed? What remains the same? What do you think and what do you need to do differently? Where are the threats and the opportunities? Or is it just a matter of following the same timeless property principles that are just dressed in new clothes and the latest fashion lingo? Because as I've been saying for some time now, the honeymoon's over for property investors who've slipstreamed on the back of emotionally driven FOMO home buyers. That's resulted in our second biggest property boom in our 230-year history, which has effectively brought forward 5 to 6 years of value growth. And with each rate rise, your property purchase payout reduces, where a 0.5% rate increase drops your borrowing capacity by about $50,000 on an average loan, which means you've got a shrinking window of opportunity to take advantage of. So if your investment horizon is less than 10 years and you need to increase your nest egg, and you're serious about continuing to grow equity in the medium term, you're going to have to adopt a much more active, creative, and inventive approach to your property wealth creation that, of course, needs to still be in alignment with your goals, your strategy, your capacity, and your risk profile, rather than just relying on time and market forces to do all the heavy lifting. So today we're going to deep dive into all of this with a fellow highly respected property educator who I'm actually convinced is my Siamese twin and we must have been separated at birth. Because we've both followed very similar parallel property pathways. Like yours truly, today's guest is a born and bred country girl who's made a big dent in the big smoke. She started her career as a mining engineer and explosive expert and applied the resulting discipline of risk management to the property market where she and her husband have built their own multi-million dollar property portfolio based on her unique low-risk property investment methodology that she calls the Trident Strategy, which I'm sure we're going to unpack today. And again, like me, she then started her own finance breaking business to share her knowledge and assist everyday Australians create their own financial security. She's also a recognized author, has been co-host of a popular podcast, and she's collected multiple awards along the way as she continues to educate you and everyday Australians as the founder of Your Property Success Online Education. And again, like yours truly, she's a true student of success who believes that when you achieve financial security, You can then get on with your true life purpose and live your legacy. If you haven't guessed already, I'm talking about the highly acclaimed and highly respected industry leader, Jane Slack-Smith. And to further set the scene, I want to start by sharing a brief extract from Jane's Your Success Club, which really resonated with me. And it goes like this: Ultimately, I see life as a quest for living your true purpose, leaving an impact on the world. And living a life of joy. Sadly, many give up along the way, forget their quest, or just don't make it. Some believe success is about being wealthy, but it seems elusive, just out of their grasp, an illusion. I believe being wealthy is about having the resources to be a curious adventurer— that's an awesome term— to be able to make a lasting contribution, being spiritual, connecting to a world of infinite possibilities, creating a legacy, being the best you can be, and being proud of you, just as you are. I've been on this adventure for years, and I've studied why some people are successful and others aren't. Often, it comes down to their relationship to money, wealth, and success. The beliefs we have about ourselves, others, and the world, and the conditions we set up that have to be met before we can live the life we want. Over years of working with thousands of people and assisting them to achieve financial security, I've found that some achieve it, others don't. I work with students and clients to reveal their beliefs and conditions and then create a path to the life they desire. So, come on the adventure with me. It'll be real and unpolished, just as I am. Wow, that really struck home for me, and in similar challenging, inspiring tones is straight out of my playbook. So, welcome, twin sister. And let's get invested, Jane.

Thank you so much. I'm so glad I finally found my twin brother.

Well, I tell you what, those words are, you know, really, really heartfelt and just, just really did resonate with me. So I know we're going to have a fantastic conversation today, Jane. But for those that have been living under a rock and don't know Jane Slack-Smith, which there won't be too many in the country that don't, I'd love for you to talk to us initially about what you do differently and most importantly, Jane, why you do what you do.

Oh wow, good opening question there, Bushy. You know, I think it was funny, I was walking with my son the other day, 14-year-old, and I was saying, oh, you know, I was speaking to this client and we were really kind of unpacking why she wasn't pulling the trigger on buying an investment property and she knew where to buy and the type of property to buy and the finance was set up and there was just this limitation. And we kind of, we stepped into her relationship with success and she was saying, gosh, you know, I think it's from me thinking that I'm going to die alone, rich in an old mansion. And I'm like, no wonder you don't have success. Let's redefine that. What's that look like in its higher purpose? And she said, gosh, having time to be with the people I love. I'm like, well, let's define it like that. And my son said, you're just not a normal mortgage broker, are you? No, probably not. And I think that kind of, it really crystallizes, you know, what I do. I've always been fascinated by the human journey and I've always, you know, probably like the good Catholic girl who felt she, you know, be a good girl and the rewards will come at the end. And you know, if you know something, share it, you know, don't keep it, you know, sequestered away. And so as soon as I kind of had this property, journey that I'd been on, I just couldn't wait to share it. And it almost felt like it was remiss of me not to. So, you know, I guess when I look at me stepping from a mining engineer in the mining industry to, you know, my life of service in assisting people in, you know, their reclaiming themselves, but also doing that through, you know, wealth and abundance and through using property as a vehicle to do that. You know, I set up my mortgage broking business around where they were buying, what they were buying, rather than finance. Finance was the vehicle that allowed them to get there. So I guess my thought process has always been around working out what the person wants to achieve that I work with, and then working out, back calculating what's the steps to get there. So I think that might be the fundamental difference that I bring to, to, the people I work with.

I tell you what, I am talking to my twin sister because my thinking is exactly the same. The property and the finance is the enabler and the vehicle, but it's the headset, the thinking, the strategy, getting clear on actually how you do want to live and then looking at what your ability is to bridge the gap between here and then. So refreshing to talk to someone who adopts that approach, Jane. Very refreshing. We're going to have a lot of fun today. Jane Slack-Smith, I'd love— and there's There's a lot already that you've said that we'll unpack a little bit later, but what I'd love to do, if you don't mind, well, I've sort of touched very briefly on your journey. I'd love for you to sort of dive into and go back as far as you'd like and talk us through what you've invested your time, your energy, and your money in over the years and the why, the big whys. And if you wouldn't mind, just sort of focus on some of the highs as well as the lows so that we can see what you've learned from them and how this has led to where you are and what you're doing today.

Sure. Well, I guess, you know, like you, I grew up in the country and, you know, my parents didn't have a lot. And I'm not going to do the whole violin story, but because it really wasn't a violin story. We didn't know we didn't have a lot. You know, they just made things meet. And it was funny, I was sitting down with my sister and her husband and my parents and my husband recently, and we're talking about our engagement stories. And my father said, "Oh, you know, I knew I was gonna marry your mum as soon as she walked into the Narabri RSL club. And I said to the guys, 'I'm gonna marry that woman.'" And he said, "It took a while to convince her." And he said, "When I finally proposed, I said to her, 'Be kind to poor people because you're going to be a poor person.'" And I was like, "Wow, way to sell yourself, dude." It's interesting because, you know, they didn't have a lot and, you know, they really gave us every opportunity and really gave us the opportunities to be curious and to be adventurers and to try new things. And I think, you know, when I think of all of the things that I've pursued and tried, you know, I knew I couldn't get into university unless I had a scholarship. So we pretty much, Mum and Dad and I sat down We wrote 130 scholarship applications. I got one, turned out to be mining engineering. And, you know, I knew that I just needed to learn and I needed the framework and the structure of learning how to learn. And university would provide that and give me some time to grow in, I guess, my, my age and maturity. And then, you know, whilst I had that scholarship, I could help them put my sister through school. And then I could help support her when she got to university. So it was always around the, you know, you go forward and pave the way and we will, and then I can support, you know, those behind me. And that's kind of always been my methodology. And, you know, when you're growing up and you're, you know, I don't know, family base wages, incomes are, you know, whatever, $25,000 each or whatever. And all of a sudden you're at university and you're earning $10,000 tax-free through the scholarship. I was moneybags. I was subsidizing my friends and their rent and, you know, our outings. And I took my parents on our first big trip to Cairns. You know, we, we had these amazing kind of, I had this opportunity because I had money and unfortunately the money just flowed through my fingers. And so, you know, my first investment was I had, they gave me a credit card and I could not believe you could just tap this card. We didn't tap it then, they put it through a machine. But, and I got this Auraton handbag that was like $150. And I was just like, oh my God, that's the most expensive thing I've ever bought. And it's funny, you know, that was, oh gosh, 30, 30-odd years ago. And about 3 years ago, my husband got the, the zip fix for me. I've been using it ever since. So great investment, right? But it took me, I didn't realize I had to pay it off. I think in the end it probably cost me about $160 in interest. So I was kind of, I hadn't had a role model over how to spend money or make money or grow money or invest. It wasn't a, you know, let's sit around the table at night and talk about the share market. And, you know, my parents made sacrifices to give my sister and I an amazing education and an opportunity. But I've always been someone who was, you know, my dad used to say, you know, if you want to be a garbage man, be a garbage man, but just be the best garbage man you can be. And my mum used to say, to say, you know, you can do anything but fly, and with God's help, you can fly. And so we really grew up with this self-confidence that we could achieve anything. And so I was genuinely shocked when things went wrong. And so, you know, when I thought about the fact that I'd got to about the age of 28 and, you know, I'd spent— I was living a very good life and had a very comfortable existence and having overseas trips. And, you know, I was single and enjoying things. And I went to visit a friend in New Zealand and I picked up this, the Rich Dad Poor Dad book. And he said, does your money work for you or do you work for your money? I'm like, oh yeah, this is stupid. I earn a good income. And as a young engineer, like 30 years ago, I graduated on $80 grand a year. Like I was earning a great income, but I had no savings. Right. I was spending it and, and almost giving it away as, a penance for the fact that my friends and family— like, and I work with a lot of people on this kind of loyalty tax. It's like, if I'm different or separate, you know, they won't love me or like me as much. And so, you know, let's go on holidays, and I'll take the— I'll pay for dinner, and, you know, I'll pay for their taxi. And I found that this really jarred me. And it was at that stage I thought, I need to get serious about this. So for my 30th birthday, I bought myself, you know, 2000, 3 appointments with financial planners and I thought if I pay $500 each, I'll get independent advice. And which, as you know, wasn't quite the way that it was.

I understand why you would think that way. And that's pretty inventive. Let's not talk to one, let's talk to 3 so we can prepare some notes. How did that go?

Well, I was a mining engineer that specialized in risk assessment and explosives, so I was like always de-risking everything. So I'm like, okay, I'm not going to go follow one person, I'm doing the three. And at that time, my now husband Todd had said to me, you know, I had this lawn mowing business in New Zealand and I had started mowing the lawn for this young 25-year-old when he was like 16 and impressionable. And the guy said, you did such a good job How about come and mow my other 4 properties? And he's like, how did you get 4 properties? It's like the first one is the hardest. And, uh, and you know, we grew up thinking you had to pay something off before you can get into your second property. And so there was this starting of, you know, there could be something else. My husband's going, there's something in this property stuff. And my boss kept saying, get a mortgage, cuz then I know you're tied to me forever. And I, And I was just like, no, I'm not taking a mortgage. I'm footloose, fancy-free, 30-year-old. And, um, and we went to a couple of seminars, you know, those free 2-hour seminars on property and being the good engineer and studious, you know, academic and scientist. I started, you know, I think I bought 120 books on properties to, to work out how, what went right for people and what went wrong. And, um, those 3 financial planners, one wanted to day trade on the stock exchange for me, which was this outside of my risk zone completely. And the other two, when I asked enough questions, essentially said, hey, we work for a big financial planning company that tells us what to sell based on your risk profile. We're essentially sales agents that work out if you're low risk, medium risk, or high risk, and whatever that is, we tell you what to buy. And I only had $45,000. So I was like, mm, that doesn't seem clever.

So they, they actually, They actually told you that though, basically. Good grief. That, uh, okay.

And they had the paraplaners. They said the paraplaners do all the work and make it look fancy. We're essentially, you know, we're selling the company's, uh, Kool-Aid. And I was like, okay. And I thought, well, I've gotta be able to do better than this. And, um, and with all this research and these courses, uh, we, we essentially started investing in property. So I, I would say, that what I invest in my time and energy was always in the, not just the self-development, but the development of knowledge in the area that I was concentrating on, on, you know, hacking or mastering at the time. And I've always been like that ever since. And that came from the, almost the permission from my parents to say, you can do anything and, you know, have a go, have a crack.

Yeah, love it. Something I wouldn't mind just circling back on briefly because You mentioned you got a scholarship to do mining engineering. Was that a passion or was that just almost a coincidence? Because it's a very blokey, particularly then back in the times you were doing it, very blokey sort of an industry and you would've stuck out like a sore thumb, I would've thought.

Well, actually I stuck out a lot because I was the first female to work underground in coal mines in New South Wales and they went on strike. So— Really?

Because of you.

And I mean, I grew up on a farm, right? Where my dad was the farm manager and, you know, he worked 6.5 days a week. And, you know, if you, if you weren't at home escaping the 45-degree heats in Dubbo, you were kind of out there helping, you know, he had a market garden to try and make a bit of extra money. And so we were always out there, you know, helping the family do what was needed, moving sheep or center pivot irrigations or whatever that was. And so I turn up at this mine and they're like, you're a girl, you can't you can't work. I'm like, what, geez, tell my dad. I've been a slave for ages. When did this happen that the girls didn't have to do what guys did? And they put me in these white overalls. So it was like 2000— no, it was 1989, and they had just changed the legislation to allow women to work underground. And I was working at Munmoora State Mine underneath the lake, so it was a bit wet. And They put me in white overalls. The guys could see me coming in case they wanted to swear. Mind you, grew up on a farm, just, you know, and, um, and as soon as we had got the transport down to the base, the— I'd been sitting in this white, you know, wet seat, and, uh, through— because everything's dripping wet there, and the white paper overalls had started dissolving. So I was there in my like Simpsons boxer shorts and t-shirt going like, I think I actually need a real pair of King G's, guys. Like, can we work on this? And they're like, ah, fair enough. And you know, the funny thing was there's, you know, it took them a little while to kind of warm to me. And I think it was probably because I was a bit of a chatter. And I remember this guy saying, geez, don't wear earmuffs. I was like, why not? He said, only girls wear earmuffs. Mind you, I'm the first female, right? I was like, what do you mean only girls wear earmuffs? Well, that's what I was told when I started. He's this like 57-year-old man who started when he was 17. And at 17, it was like, you know, don't wear earmuffs because you look like a girl. And I was like, does it make me look more feminine? Like, what's the problem here? And he's like, no, oh no, it doesn't mean that. It means it's a bad thing. It means like you're a wuss, you're a wimp. And I was like, okay, so girls are wusses and wimps. I said, why? What else is going on? And he's like, Well, the bosses tell us to do it and we don't do what the bosses tell us to do. I was like, okay, so if I wear earmuffs, I don't lose my hearing, but if I do wear them, I look like a bit of a wimp and that I'm learning from people who've probably got my best interests at heart. And he's like, well, if you put it like that, I feel like a bit of a dick. I'm like, okay, I think I might wear earmuffs. And he's like, and I said, are you going to wear them? He's like, nah, too late for me, I'm deaf. Oh, jeez. There's a hint.

There's a hint.

It's kind of like, It was all of these kind of things that I've learned over the years where I'm like, people do something because they were told it and didn't question it. And when you question it, you're like, so why do you do that? It's like, well, we, we, it's the way we've always done it. And there's a lot of times there's an easy way to doing things and we do that ourselves. And I, you know, I work with a lot of people and we have those conversations about why do you do this? It's like, geez, I think my mom did it. I'm like, okay, makes sense. So yeah, I just, um, working in mining, it was not a passion. It was the payout. So they, they gave me the scholarship. I was good at English and maths. I was good at public relations and, you know, training and engagement, but they weren't giving me any of those scholarships. There was a lot cleverer people than me. And at that time, they were really trying to encourage women to get into mining. And I didn't understand affirmative action back then. And, you know, I kind of worked against it somewhat when I found out what was going on. But, you know, I just I turned up and just did my best and did well.

Yeah, I love it. I'm sure whether it's part of your nature or the nurture that came out of the mining exercise, but I would have thought the discipline, the risk management that you've already touched on, the structure and the frameworks that you'd start to approach problem solving with would have been very useful once you started getting into the property arena, I would have thought.

Absolutely, and I mean, you're on a site in the middle of Mount Isa and you're sitting around the toolbox waiting to let a blast off and you're talking to 4 or 5 people and you're like, you know, what do you do? And I'm like, oh, in my spare time I'm buying property. I'm like, well, what do you do? And they're like, oh, in my spare time I'm drinking everything I'm earning. I'm like, why do that? They're like, yeah, why am I doing that? Like, I could be out of this job sooner. So I started having those conversations and it gave me the opportunity to get a little bit of insight into the motivations of people who didn't know. And I was like, oh, let me train you about how to buy property. And so I'm running Toolbox Talks, you know, on mine sites all over Australia whilst I'm, you know, waiting to, you know, push the button on a blast with these guys. And I was just like, this is, this, I like doing this.

Yeah. Yeah. Love that. So with, with Todd, you, you started to get interested in the property and you, you've read Robert Kiyosaki's book and 120-odd others. Where did that lead you to then? Talk us through your journey in the, in the property front in particular. What, what did you start doing? What it looked like and what, what was the evolving strategy as you worked through all of that?

Well, one of the people who, you know, you know, Jane Slack-Smith, obviously like guru and you know, start reading her story and you're like, you don't have to pay your home off first before you can access some of the equity and invest. I mean, there was some really revolutionary things and it's like, geez, you know, I never thought about that. And you don't have to have a home. You could buy an investment property first. And I'm like, Happy days. You know, I didn't want to have the tied down white picket fence kind of storyline. And, you know, so I, you know, and, and, you know, that term is called rent vesting. And we did that for like, you know, 15 years, but what really, um, there was a, an educator in Melbourne called Henry Kaye subsequently had a few issues.

I remember him.

Yeah. You know, well, he started selling moccasins at, uh, you know, the, the, Vic Markets. He started well and he made a name for himself. And like Peter Spann, he was, he's very much like, look at my red Ferrari and my, you know, my beautiful friends and things. And, and, you know, when you're selling the dream, it's, it's interesting to see it, but he had some really interesting methodology behind what he did. And funnily enough, he also used to say, don't buy properties off people who are teaching you how to buy properties and then you say, run to the back of the room and sign up for the, you know, the apartment in Maribyrnong. And people would run and I'm like, no, but he told you not to do this. You've been warned. But he actually had some really interesting things that I kind of thought, oh, I could, I could, I could add something to this. And what I really loved was his analytical kind of assessments of areas. So essentially we drew a 10K circle around Melbourne, We looked at what we could afford, what the median prices were. You know, this is back in 2001 and, uh, looked at, and then I was like, well, how do I de-risk investing? And so I was looking at things going, well, if there's 70% of people own a home, 30% of people must rent. So I want to be in a suburb where there's renters. I want, you know, people and how, how can I tell if there's too many rental properties? Well, what if I have the vacancy rate less than 3%. It means that there's more people looking to rent than rent. So I decided to put in some, I guess, low risk filters. And out of that came about 5 suburbs. My husband was looking to buy around the $450,000 mark. I had $425,000, earned a bit less. And so we wanted, and I, you know, strongly believe that a man wasn't a financial plan and he didn't want to be my white knight. So we were going to buy separately. And And so, you know, we were in the same suburbs looking at the same areas. And I remember driving down this street in Carlton and I said, you know, one day we'll be able to live here. And, you know, we had chosen Carlton and Fitzroy and Collingwood. And by the end of 3 months, you, you know, we were picking like the auction prices within, you know, 2 or 3%. And we're seeing the opportunities, we're seeing how agents and, um, the auctioneers were performing. For every 10 properties we inspected, we'd go to one open home for rental to see, you know, what the competition for the rentals were, how those agents acted. You know, was it the cheeky, you know, office lady who was just looking at social media or was it, which we didn't have back then, she was just looking at her phone, sending texts, or was it, you know, someone who was really trying to show benefits and, you know, features of a property. And so we were building up this real arsenal of knowledge An opportunity came up, two properties beside each other that were on two single titles. We got the Residex report back then and we looked at, you know, what they had tried to sell for, what the value was. And we really, we went in hard to buy the two so he could own one, I could own the other. And mine was like $425,000 and his was $475,000 and we were the highest bidders. And, um, there was a group of Queens' Council judges, etc., lawyers who went up to the agent after we were the highest bidders and asked to go in and they said, "These people are too young to buy a property of this quality. Tell us what they're after and we'll put $1,000 more in." And to the agent's kudos, he said, "Bugger off." And so we went in and negotiated and we had the pest and building inspections. You showed all the problems that we had and we could see that this was an opportunity. Secured those properties. So I bought my first property at $425,000. I used everything I had of that $45,000, $25,000 deposit, mortgage insurance, you know, everything went into that. And I then went and borrowed $50,000 as a personal loan to renovate. And 6 months later it was worth $700,000. And so I just pulled the equity out and went and did it again in Sydney and did it again and did it again. And then 5 years later, went, I think we got enough.

Yeah, love it, love it. Let's dive into the reno area in particular because you've sort of been widely known as the reno queen and well-earned in that regard. And we are certainly moving into an arena where that sort of active creation of equity is something that a lot of investors are going to have to look at. What sort of prompted you to get into the renovation side of the equation and are you able to share some sort of basic principles that are going to be applicable to those investors who might need to get their hands dirty doing the same in the times ahead?

Yeah. Look, the reason I got into renovation was two things. First of all, I really didn't want to stuff up and lose my money. And so I was like, how can I de-risk this? If I can make money in three ways, then this is, this is going to, if I stuff up one, I'm going to be okay. And so, from, for the first reason that I kind of got into renovations, the strategy was, well, what if I buy in the wrong area and it doesn't have the capital growth? And what if I can't negotiate below what the property is really worth and make money when I buy? So that was my first kind of like, okay, if I can add instant equity and, you know, improve the rentability of the property and create money out of thin air, let's do that. And the second reason you know, really was, I was just impatient. I'm like, you know, let's once I'm in, I'm all in, I've done the research. I am all in. So I'm not gonna wait around for 5 years for, you know, the property to go up by $100 grand. If I can throw in $50 grand and have it go up by a couple hundred grand, happy days. Let's get onto the next one. Because I, I mean, like you, I, I honestly believe it's time in the market, not timing the market.

Yeah. Yeah. It's spot on. What, what I also love though, cuz there is a fine art in renovation cuz a lot of people I see who do it for the first time, get carried away spending money in the wrong places or spending too much money without really focusing back on, well, where's this going to get me to and what additional equity can I create? Are there any tips or sort of basic approaches that are relevant, that are worth sharing in that regard that will give people a little bit of a framework to start their renovation approach?

Well, I mean, if we look at what I believe are the two biggest biggest mistakes that investors make. And there's a saying, I think it's by the Sufis, which is, you know, is something like the half-wise are dashed against the rocks. And it's kind of like when people go in with half the knowledge. And I see that when people buy in the wrong locations or they find this great location and they're like, oh, can't, can't afford a house. I'm gonna buy a unit. Yeah. And it's the same with renovations. Like, you know, they're going, going, I know you can make money on renovations. I just have to find a dog and make it beautiful. And they get these dogs and they make them beautiful. And they're like, why didn't I make any money?

And it's still dogs.

Exactly. I've got to be honest. There's very few properties I look at where I can't improve them, but there's also very few properties that you can't, um, that you can actually make a profit on renovating. So for me, it was always about strategic renovations. And I was always, you know, looking at where are the big ticket items. And you know, the big ticket items we can have, we can have a look at, but the absolute thing that will make you money in any renovation is making sure that you're in a suburb that has pricing disparity that allows you to make money, which means that if you buying at $700,000, an unrenovated property, and it's gonna cost you $50 grand to do the renovation, and you've got all the other costs, holding costs, et cetera. You should be looking at properties worth at least $850,000 that are in that same market that are renovated, that are selling. Because if you buy at $700,000, you renovate for $750,000 and the renovated property is selling at $750,000, you've just wasted your time and energy and, you know, quite frankly, opportunity cost of being on something that could get you further ahead.

Yeah, spot on. Absolutely spot on. And what I love about what you've shared with us already is that yourself and Todd had boots on the ground for quite a period. So you knew within an inch of its life what value was in what areas and how it differed from one precinct to the other. A lot of people just don't get their boots dirty enough these days and roll up the sleeves and really spend, and I'm guessing you probably spent months doing that before you actually pulled the trigger.

Yeah.

Would I be right in saying that?

Yeah, it was really, it was interesting. I did learn, something I did learn in that first renovation and those first two properties was the value of your own time. So, you know, I had a lot less money than Todd had for the renovation. And so, and he, you know, love him. Uh, he helped me with my painting on my side of the property. And so we were getting up, you know, 7 o'clock every morning, painting for an hour at night, doing 2 hours, you know, after work on the weekends, you know, 12, 15 hours to paint my 3-story, you know, property. And it took us about 3 months. And then I got this opportunity to move with work to New South Wales. And he can work from anywhere at that stage in an IT profession. So we were all in like, hey, let's move. We've got like a month. And he got a professional painter in that did it in 4 days.

Wow.

And I've gotta say, although I have had to do a bit of painting and touch-ups ever since, I'm like, what?

Yeah.

That, that was worth so much more. That could have got me into my next deal quicker. It could have allowed us to, you know, do so much more. And Yeah, we were, we, every cent was on the line. Like, you know, I thought we did really clever in buying two properties beside each other and that builder would pull out one kitchen and then we'd have the other kitchen to cook in and pull out one bathroom and we could have the other bathroom. And this dude on the first wet day in the first week pulled out both kitchens and took the door off the bathrooms. And so we had to be up by, you know, 6:30 before the builders arrived and we had nowhere to cook, but we were living very close to Lygon Street, but we couldn't afford the food. So we're eating these microwave meals going, and you know, you know, fast forward to a renovation we were doing in eastern suburbs in Sydney. The painter's done his job and he's fantastic and he's packing up for the day and he's like, well, you know, you can't stay here, the fumes will kill you. Like, what do you mean? It's like, well, you can't stay here. I'm like, well, we're not going to spend money on a motel. So we pull out the camp stretcher beds and put them in the kitchen and, you know, sleep the night away. It was like, why would you put over $50 that you could put put into, you know, the property or some, a nice tap or something where you can actually sleep in there. So, you know, we've always been quite frugal, but I do now have, or I did at that time go, oh, okay, me, me learning how to paint's probably not the best use of my time.

Yeah. I'd often say the same thing, Jane, that don't create a second job when you invest. It's, it's get good people around you and, and do your homework and manage your managers to make sure that they're, cost-effective, but as you say, a professional will get in and out of an exercise in a fraction of the time. And if your energy is put into what you're good at, but also to keeping them honest and making sure they're on track, then that's probably a smarter way to go rather than the stories that you and I hear, no doubt, about people who buy properties and they get their mates over the carton currency to try and get things done at night and weekends and then wonder why it doesn't work out. Yeah, there's some really good learnings in all of that. Yeah, that's awesome. Tell us about, you know, as you go through the journey then, what have been the most challenging events that you've experienced both on the property front and your life generally that have created the greatest learnings and the best changes as you see it?

Challenging events. Oh gosh, you know, probably meeting Todd was the most challenging event. It was like Pepe Le Pew. He's like, oh, you're in Melbourne, I'll move to Melbourne. Like, hang on. No. And I mean, you know, I've essentially grown up in my formative years with, you know, men underground in coal mines. I'm like, I'm not really buying this story of a happy ending here. What's going on? And he was full in like, oh yeah, let's, let's go for it. And I was like, interesting. So he was, that was a pretty challenging personal experience. And, you know, I have to say subsequently, and even reading, you know, like you, I'm a student of success. I'm, I'm just I'm here to absolute hack how people can get what they truly want and live their life's purpose. And you know, you look at the, the numbers and essentially people with a, a person who's aligned to their vision as a life partner are a lot more successful. And so, you know, there was a challenge on my front of my initial, you know, late 20s going, hello, you know, what's going on here to, you know, looking back 20 years and going, you know, having someone who's on that journey with you and can share that with you and share the vision and the ups and the downs and the, you know, sleeping on the floor in the kitchen to, you know, having the joys of, you know, negotiating an amazing property purchase. You know, they're, that's probably, you know, something I'd share from a personal point of view. But yeah, from a, from a, um, From a property point of view, okay, so here's something most people don't know. I have just sold my very first property after investing for 21 years. Bushy?

Love it. I can understand why you're never going to get a better time to sell a property if you're at that end of your investment journey. Tell us about it, Jane. I'd love for you to unpack that.

It's been a challenge. It's probably been my greatest property challenge. And I, so I've had this property for 19 years.

Yeah.

And it, I bought it as a unit and I gotta be honest, it, at the time, you know, we went and had a look at these units cuz we'd been doing renovations, looking for properties. You know, they say, well, RP, not RP done it, Rich Dad Poor Dad had said something along the lines that if you look for 100 properties, put in offers on about 10, you'll end up with 1. And so we left Melbourne, went to Sydney. Todd had a different price point to me. Every weekend we're out where, you know, we pull out the mailways, we've got it all planned. We're driving across the bridge 5 times a day. We're doing Balmain, we're doing Maroubra, we're doing Manly, Mossman, you know, we're looking at all these places and we looked at around about 180 properties. We put in 6 offers, we had 2 accepted. So we ended up with these properties and then, you know, this way every weekend. So then we realized, you know, we'd probably ignored our friends like, oh, what do you do? And so this one weekend Todd said, hey, you know, there's these units and, you know, and we were always, I was always looking at pricing pressure and people couldn't afford one area, they'd move to the others. And you know, there was like Kensington and Coogee and Randwick and, you know, all these areas that were like $900,000 price points. And there was Kingsford. It was like, you know, a lot less, $600,000. And you know, we, we thought, oh, we'll kind of have a, we don't really wanna invest at the moment. We'll go and have a look at some apartments. And they were all selling for about $425,000. And yeah, walked around, had a look at a few We saw this one that was really cramped but had really great views and you could see like Botany Bay and it's, you know, a small block of 18. So that was all cool. And about 2 weeks later, I said, you know, interest rates just gone up. Everyone's panicking. Like, hello, 2022, right? Everyone's panicking. This guy's dropped his price to $380,000.

I was like, what?

That was the best one. Like, what did we miss? We got the strata minutes and we looked at it and we're like, there's nothing wrong with this. And then it became obvious that it was an overseas buyer. It's next to the university and a hospital, which is mostly where my properties are. And on-tap tenants in theory.

Yeah, exactly.

And yeah. And he'd obviously kind of put a few kids through uni and it was, the interest rates went up and it was a bit of a worry. And so I said, oh, let's be cheeky. We'll throw in 3.10. And the agent, ah, ripped me one. Like, I was, shoot, he was like really upset. He said, this is insulting. I can't give this offer to them. I said, well, you know, technically you do.

You have to. Yep.

Like, yeah, let's talk about your job. And he did. And he came back and said, they accepted. And I'm like, oh no, we need finance. What have we done? And we jumped in there and part of our offer conditions was that we could have access beforehand settlement. We got all the quotes done. And on the day that we took over possession of that property, we had the kitchen being put in, put in, we painted it. We, Tom and I actually were like, we're not going to pay for fancy blinds. We actually got these curtains from Spotlight and the hemming that you kind of iron the hem on. And we're in our rental property and we realized that the carpet that we're ironing on was actually like a a synthetic carpet, which was a bit of a minor. But anyhow, and so we put up these curtains and, you know, we put the kitchen and did the flooring and stuff. And in 10 days we spent $14 grand and we got the agents back who said it was now worth $450,000. Wow. And we're like, geez, happy days. So it sounded like a good deal, right? Subsequently, we were absentee landlords. Come 19— oh, what, 2017? You know, there was a bit of some cracks on the carport. They needed to fix it up. It's gonna be $50 grand. Didn't really pay much attention. And then we got invited to a strata meeting for the $1.1 million spend. Like, wait a second, what's going on here? And it blew out to $1.7 and then it went over to $2 and it's like, this is hurts. This is like, no, this is, this is not adding any value to the property. This is against everything. So what was my great kind of one of my great negotiation deals and it paid for itself straight up. Right. You know, it was a $290,000 loan. You paid, paid, paid for itself, but it became a real pain. And we listed it the day of the first interest rate rise in 2022, which is a bit painful in itself. And you know, what had happened was there was like a, some of the owners started selling, you know, November, December, January, $1,980,000. We're thinking happy days. Like, you know, yeah, the market might be coming off a little bit. We'll take $950,000. And then we just, and then 2 more of the 18 units came market and they're taking like $940,000, $930,000, $900,000. And they were like, second interest rate rise. Oh my God. I was like, you know what? We're out of here. And so we ended up settling on like an $850,000. And you know, people are probably listening to the stories going, oh my God, it went from $1 million to $850,000. You lost money. The reality is this is my worst property in my property portfolio. It went from $310,000 to $850,000, which if you do the numbers over 19 years, it made me $500 a month, $30,000 a year for the last 19 years. Like, you know, yes, there's the costs of doing business, but that's how much that went up. And that's the worst one in my portfolio.

Spot on. That's where property can be very forgiving over time and it allows you to make those sort of learning exercises really is what we're saying there, which is awesome. So thanks for sharing that. Something I'd like to dip into as well. You've talked about the importance of your relationship with Todd and I agree. The power of two can have a massive impact on things generally. But I'd love to switch slightly into your relationship with money because it's, as you and I both know, it's what's between your ears that often has as big an impact as the actual bricks and mortar exercise itself. What's your money story? Can you sort of talk to us about what your relationship with money has been over time? Has it changed and how has that helped you on your journey? Journey?

Yeah, I guess the thing is, was that, I mean, I grew up without money and we really without a, a model for money. And it's interesting. Most of the mentoring students I work with in the property mentoring today call themselves investors in isolation or, you know, because you know, their, their partners have said, yes, dear, you go and look after that and I'll just get on with, you know, the rest, raising the family or earning the keep at work or whatever. And there's a huge responsibility with that. So I recognize that, you know, although you might have someone who's aligned with you in a vision for the life you want to have, then they may kind of give you the burden of that kind of investing. And I guess my attitude to money was that I always knew I was resourceful bushie. I always knew that if I needed to go and grab an extra job, I could do it. Or if I needed to, you know, hustle into a sideline or, you know, sell stuff. You know, it was an opportunity for me to always do that. I really haven't had the negative money stories that a lot of people have, but the money story that was very early in my life and was reoccurring until I realized it and saw the signposts and now still look for the signposts. Is, you know, I remember like mum would give us like 50 cents to go and get milk. And my job I always felt was to use the whole 50 cents. So the milk was 40 cents. I'd be coming back with 2 half dead tomato plants for 5 cents. You know, like I was, I was always trying to use everything up. And you know, when I had a very great income, I was, you know, living to that income and a little bit over. And it wasn't until I saw that signpost and, you know, a pattern that had been repeating for 20 years that I went, hey, you know, I don't have to use it all. And so I then became a bit of a saver.

Yeah, yeah, there's a bit of a money drop in that exercise. Let's switch into something that we're both students of, as we've mentioned a couple of times already, and that's around what I'd like to call sustainable success. What's your definition, or your current definition, because our definitions Definitions tend to change over time. What is your definition? How are you achieving it? And as importantly, how can others, as you say it?

Yeah, I think, I mean, if you think about, you know, I've got a business, Your Property Success Club, you know, your property success. So for me, that idea around achieving, you know, everything that you wanted to achieve, to have the freedom of time to do what you want with whom you want, when you want, you know, But for the last, I would say, you know, from like 2010 to around 2019, that really was, you know, my kind of definition to success. And so to your point, you kind of change a bit. I realized that even though I taught thousands of people and, you know, I, you know, I guess I get the most beautiful emails and messages from people, even someone today, you know, like they buy a $3,000 Ultimate Guide to Renovation course and they come back and go, you are not going to believe the, you know, the, what I've just sold my property for. You're not going to believe this. And you know, they're making hundreds of thousands of dollars and, and I see that, but there's all these people who don't, right? And so I'm like, what was that? And I thought, if I can hack what that is, I'm going to be able to teach that. So I'm a, I'm a learner so I can teach and apply. And so I was like, maybe it's something to do with like your mind. So I went to Mindvalley University in in Estonia and dragged my son along in 2018. Awesome. And these people were just extraordinary, right? These people, digital nomads, and they're doing Kakaua quantum ceremonies and they're doing, you know, strategic digital marketing stuff. And, you know, there's all these things going on and I was like, wow, this is pretty impressive. And then I started being asked to mentor and I started mentoring people and some people were just following the bouncing ball and I could really curate the experience and course correct them. But other people would just hold back. And, you know, and, and I thought there's something else. And so I started doing like, there's a book called Breathe, for instance. I'm like, oh, maybe, you know, hacking the human condition is part of it. And so I participated in the Southern Cross University's breathing kind of experiments last year because I was like, oh, maybe it's something around your breath. And maybe it's something around mindset. And, you know, what I've done, you know, So in, I guess, the last few years is I've really concentrated on the Your Success Club and you have taken the property out because I think that that definition kind of is when I sit and do these vision sessions with people, I'm like, so what is, you know, the life that you want to lead? What is the ideal lifestyle and how much do you think you need for that? And often it's like, we need $100 grand or we need $250 grand. And then we go back and cost it out. I'm like, dude, you only need like $60 grand. Like, you know, And there's a relief and often there's tears. And yeah, and then sometimes I do these sessions and it's like, in actual fact, my vision is to create schools in Indonesia for kids. My vision is to create, like, I'm working with a divorce coach at the moment, helping women not to have to go through, you know, what I went through. Or, you know, I want to create something for kids on the street so they can get out and, you know, be one with nature and indigenous kind of experience. And so I work with that vision. I don't work with, I need 3 properties. And so for me, sometimes in these vision sessions, I'm like, you know what, although I can help you with the property stuff, I think you've set that up as a condition that once you've reached the obligation of that financial position, you can then get on with life and live your true value. And for some people it's true that they want to achieve that property position. But for most I find that, you know, there's other opportunities and I love, you know, helping them develop whatever that business service, you know, mindset change or shift is, or just that understanding of how their beliefs are coming up and are stopping them. And, you know, I think, you know, this week I spoke with a lady and, and she was just beside herself. I need to have a strategy session because I've got these two properties. I have to sell one. I'm feeling sick and anxious. So I set up a strategy session with her and I said, what's going on? She's like, oh, this real estate agent was so good and then he let me down and now I'm feeling, you know, like really, like it's almost like a mini death. Like this is how it's affecting my health. And there's the other property, the legal team kind of did this and they've let me down with this. And so I start pulling out the patterns and I'm like, has this happened in other times? She's like, yeah. And so we started just exploring the patterns of, you know, when she gives too much responsibility without looking over and setting the framework and people are taking advantage. And then she feels that, you know, these terrible things that happen. And the reality is she didn't need to sell either of the properties, but she didn't have a vision to see the lens through of what she wanted to achieve. So, you know, I sat down with her and her husband, we did a vision session of what the life they what they wanted and neither of these properties actually fulfilled what they wanted to do. And so they've moved within the last day of, you know, moving towards exactly what they wanted. And it was until they kind of had that vision, they didn't have it. So, you know, I know that a lot of, a lot of people I speak to, they're, you know, they're seeing their boss's job and they're going, ah, it's kind of working really hard. Do I really want that? And how many golf games can I have until I'm like satisfied or how many health retreats? And there's Is this missing something? And I think for me, success, sustainable success, is around having the resources to just have that freedom of choice to follow your passion and your true nature. And often the conditions we have is that we need wealth first and we have this huge number in mind. And in actual fact, we don't.

I 100% agree. Again, that's very refreshing to talk to someone who helps people, as I call it, living by design. It's getting really crystal clear on exactly how you want to live and then being able to monetize properly what that lifestyle is rather than just plucking a number out of the air. And generally it's a massive number that scares them into submission to some degree. But actually getting people to put the properties aside, 'cause as you and I know, properties are just the vehicle. I've often said that if kebabs gave me a high growth and a better return, I'd invest in kebabs. It just so happens that property Property is the best incentivised model in Australia to help you achieve your ultimate lifestyle. But I love that you're having that conversation because it's one that again, very few people in the property or the finance industries actually do. And what I find about it, Jane, is once you've helped someone get really clear on exactly how they want to live, that becomes both a magnet and a compass because they get excited about how they're going to live down the track. That motivates them, that allows them to jump over the inevitable speed bumps that you're going to incur along the journey. But it's also a compass because it then means that every decision you're making day to day is about, is that taking me closer to that destination or further away? So it starts to give you a bit of a GPS. So when you're off track, you can start to tack and recorrect and get back on track. So I absolutely love that. Tell me, You've sort of already painted out for us, you know, what your current vision is in terms of, you know, helping others and helping those in need with the fantastic work that you are doing there. I wanna switch back into the investment arena for a minute 'cause you've talked to us to some degree about your most challenging and let's call it your worst investment. What's been your best investment to date and what have you learned from that?

Okay, I'm gonna be cheeky and say, I say the best real estate I've invested in is probably between my ears. It's that knowledge, the gaining of knowledge and, and working with people who have done it before. And so I think, you know, the, and, and, you know, I've paid up to $60,000 a year for the right mentor and coach to work with to, for a business coach. And I've worked with, you know, digital marketing and education coaches and mentors in the States flying backwards and Fords and, and video coaches over there as well. And so I've always, I would say, you know, rather than spending, you either invest time or money, right? And so you can spend the time doing it yourself, which I've always thought I had to do. And then I realized that I didn't. So it's probably my best investment has been really, you know, getting the right professionals on board to help me. The, the best property investment that I've made, you know, they're just continually, I know I shouldn't be surprised, but you know, you look at properties and you're like, ah, I bought it for $420,000 and now it's worth $2 million. And you're like, wow, that's amazing. But that's quite a few of them. Right. And you kind of like, mm, that it's kind of, it was to your point, a life by design. It was like, okay, I had the vision of what this property should be. I understood the pricing pressures of the nearby suburbs. I did risked it by making sure that there was renters. I can use census data to get down to the streets the renters want to be in. You know, I've created an algorithm that takes the 16,500 suburbs in Australia and comes up with, you know, within, between 300 and 2.2 million, about 1,100 that I would even start to do in, you know, kind of assessments on. And, you know, everyone's usually between like, you know, 700 and 800 or 800 and 900 or 500 and 600. And there's usually only across all of Australia about 50 suburbs. And so when you get to, I want to buy in Brisbane, there's about 10. Like, so I can, I can, I taught people how to do that in my courses. And then when I was kind of, you know, laying in hospital after having brain surgery in 2019, and I was like, oh my gosh, I should, if in case I can't work my brain after this, I should actually, you know, how do I make this better? And I worked with someone and in 7 seconds now, using SQM data that I purchased, I spend thousands every month on data, I can now create that list for people. And so, where to buy? So I think I can hack things quickly. And so the investments that I've used in kind of looking at the processes, looking at the way things are, and then hacking the quickest way to do it with the most reliable information has allowed me to have properties that do what my properties do.

Yeah.

And it's allowed me to, you know, enjoy teaching and being on the journey with people. So I think, you know, they, they're probably the best investments I've made.

Yeah. I love it. I love it. Now you sort of, you touched on mentors there and how important they've been. Can you tell us a little bit more about who've been the most influential mentors in your journey so far? Jane Slack-Smith?

Oh, look, I, I, I'm someone who engages people as they need them. So in 2005, when I decided to become a mortgage broker, I engaged a mortgage broker at that stage who was, you know, amazing, well-respected, still is today. And, and, you know, he said, I'll take a cut of your commissions. I'm like, do whatever it takes. And you know, I was ringing him 4 or 5 times a day with, what's LVR mean? And, and you know, silly things when you're having a, and if a bank says it's a favorable purchase, what does that mean? And what's the difference between the principal and interest with an offset compared to an interest? So, you know, stupid little questions as you're learning, as you're learning back in 2005. And by 2006 it was like 2 calls a day. And by 2007 it was 1 call a week. And by 2010 it was like 1 call a quarter. And you know, he was always there when I needed him. And, and that was amazing. And then when I was like, geez, I'm teaching all these people one by one how to do property and I can hack this. I then looked at Brendon Burchard and he was over in the States and he essentially said, and I was looking for someone authentic who was trustworthy, wasn't steak knives and, you know, dark hat marketing, you're gonna die poor kind kind of stuff. And we know that that sells better than, you know, let's be aspirational. And, you know, as much as I'd like being unicorns and, you know, fairy floss, the reality of the world is you've got to sell stuff at some stage. So I wanted to be authentic to help fund the development of more and more things and services. And so I flew backwards and forwards to his mastermind. And, you know, back in 2011, $10,000 a year seemed extraordinary. And then, you know, I made my first $10 grand out of my courses and then more. I was like, oh, okay, that works. And then, you know, so I've kind of, I've invested in, in those mentors, but my business mentor, Mark Falzon, he was amazing. He developed the kind of finance and education and businesses that I wanted to have. You know, I had business in the top 100 BRW and sold them. And you know, you go up to his farm and you sit down and he says, you know, what's your true life desire? And you're like, dude, I wanna make sure that the cash flow works. He's like, no, let's start on this thing. So he really, he really started me thinking. And then, um, his mentor was William Whitecloud. And back in 2020, I had two of my mentoring students who were struggling with their career choices. And I was like, well, I'm not really across this. Let me find someone. And a friend of mine reached out and said, hey, check out this free Create Your Destiny course. Course. And so I looked at it and thought, okay, this— how you do anything is how you do everything. So they were struggling with their careers, but also relationships, and also their investing. So I was like, let's just hack to the main problem here. And I had started building up a bit of a skill around seeing people's recurring patterns. And so I did his course. I'm like, hell, this has really helped them. I'm like, but I'm really loving it. So I invested in the rest of his curriculum And then I was just like, gosh, this guy's 70, you know, I feel a bit indulgent in doing like a mindset mentor, you know, $20,000, $30,000, $30,000 a year, whatever it is. And I was like, but he's amazing. What could I do and achieve and help and change? And he made me realize actually that, you know, there is this, I'm going to call it, oh, what am I going to, the Cinderella syndrome, which is kind of like if I serve others and put I can then justify doing something for myself. And I realized I'm like full-on dragging people through my courses who may not necessarily want to do it. I know 5% of people finish the courses they start and I'm like, no, they're going to— 75% is my goal, I'm going to drag them through. And I realized I was kind of depowering people by taking the power from them. They were happy to buy the course and never do it, it made them feel better.

Yep.

And although I was trying to save everyone, not everyone wanted to be saved. And I then realized that that was a belief around, you know, being unworthy or being the tall poppy or being the imposter or whatever that is. And so I looked at that and went, you know what, I want to work with people who, you know, know that there's something kind of missing but aren't too sure what it is. And they feel a little kind of guilty because they've got the good house and the nice husband or wife or all the great kids and job and people like, just be happy, get on with it. And so for me it was, I really kind of looked at that bigger picture and just went, okay, there's something else here that I want to spend some time on.

Yeah, I love it. You've really given us a breath there of the mental exercise in terms of its impact and it's not how much something costs, it's the value that it gives you ultimately and the journey it takes you on. Now while we're on the subject of mentors, I'm gonna just do a, a quick plug here, Jane Slack-Smith. So excuse me for this. So for those of you listening and you want to ensure that you're optimizing your approach either as a first-time investor or as an existing investor who's struggling to make it work, you can feel free to reach out to Jane or myself. And I often run Bushy Blockbusters for an hour of power where you can talk to me personally on any questions, queries, or issues you'd like to discuss. And if you wanna do that, just jump on knowhowproperty.com.au, hit the purple book appointment button in the top right-hand corner, then click on the Property Pathway Finder option and you can book in a time that suits you. And just for $295, you can ask me anything you want on property or finance for a full 60 minutes. So just as a quick aside there, I'd love now to sort of get back into the guts of the home.

Jane, can I just say something to you about that?

Yes.

Anyone's listening to this, like go on go and click on that link because my experience has been one of the things in selling courses has always been, you know, throw in an hour with the expert and everyone always encouraged me to do that when I had the online courses as I still do. And what amazed me is most people said it was the number one thing that made them buy a course but they were then hesitant because they're like, oh, I'm going to speak to the guru. I'm telling you, go and click on Bushy's link because it'll probably be the best hour you spend.

Well, and likewise with yourself, Jane, with the work you do in the mentoring space. I just find it, it's an hour they can ask anything. It's amazing where that conversation leads and opens their eyes to things that they just haven't thought about. And I'm sure you've had the same revelation or experience with all the people that you talk to. It's not like you're committing to something big. It's just 60 minutes of your time to really break through some of the blockages that you might not even be aware of that are preventing you from achieving what you you're looking to achieve. So I'd really appreciate your comments on that. Thanks, Jane. Now, Jane, let's sort of get into the guts of the, particularly the education process, given your current ongoing focus there. And you've sort of touched on some of the biggest mistakes that you see property investors making. On the flip side of that, what do you believe are the keys to successful investment and why?

Ooh, the keys. Look, I really have to say you have to start with that vision because because you know, when the, the tenants ring you at midnight with the, the fuse that doesn't work, or the painter tells you that, you know, you gotta move outta your house, or the tile is 2 tiles short and you've bought a job lot that's, you know, the last in line and you're like, oh my God, why am I doing this? Being connected to that vision. And I'm not talking about vision boards and I'm not talking about The Secret if you think it's gonna happen. I'm talking about real actionable vision. That you have an emotion connection to. So every single morning I have, I start the day with 9 choices that I make and those 9 choices, I just step into the full emotion of them already being achieved. And geez, you know, isn't it extraordinary during the day how many opportunities I'm then aware of that come up and don't miss me, that allow me to achieve what I want to achieve.

Love that. Absolutely love that. I use a similar process myself actually. And, uh, It's amazing by pre-imagining how something's going to go that 9 times out of 10, that's exactly what happens. So that's a brilliant process.

And then I think strategy's probably number 2.

Yeah, okay, okay.

You've got a strategy, right?

Yeah, well, one leads to the other. If you have the vision first, then the strategy is how am I gonna make that vision happen? But again, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this, but when people come to see me, Jane, Jane Slack-Smith, all they wanna talk about is property. And I say, no, let's just park property over there for now. What's your ideal lifestyle look like? And 9 times out of 10, I either get blank expressions or crickets or, oh, actually never thought about that before. And I often say, well, there's no point even thinking about property until you get clear on that because if you don't know where you're heading, then you could be buying the wrong property in the wrong structure and in the wrong setup that's gonna take you in the completely opposite direction. What's your experience been in that sphere?

Oh, look, I could tell you so many stories. What comes to mind quickly is I ran this Reno Fest and I had, you know, a couple hundred people and we were offering this workshop at the time. And this lady, she was about 85 and she came up and said, I'm buying your workshop. I'm like, really? Like, tell me a bit about this. I love property and been investing in property for years. And you know, that's all I know of what to do. I said, look, I'm really, I'm, I'm really hesitant. In selling, you know, something like this to someone without understanding fully what's going on. And so, you know, I made some time and had a chat with her after that thing. You know, a lot of people, they whip out their credit cards and I'm the person who says, wait a second, don't buy. So I'm not a great salesperson, but anyhow. And, you know, she had just put her husband into this care because he had Alzheimer's and she was, she couldn't drive for her own health and she's driving taxing, you know, 40 minutes each way to sit with him 12 hours a day. And here she's talking about her next investment. And I'm like, I think you're good. Like, what, what's the vision at the end? Like, where, where do you want to be? And she said, oh no, I'm donating the millions to like the Geelong Hospital. I'm like, okay, well, I think you're good with the investment. How about, you know, well, tell me about your home. She's like, oh, it's big. And, and, you know, the stairs hurt me and I'm 40 minutes from my husband. I'm like, how about you get some help to downsize to somewhere around the corner from him. She's like, oh, you mean like look after myself first? You deserve it, sweetie. And so, and it's funny, I spoke to a mentoring client last week and she's, she was like, I have to talk to you about buying this $500,000 bolt hole unit in Brisbane. And we spoke for 48 minutes and the last 12 minutes were on the unit. The rest was, why do you think you need this unit? And it was around other things she felt that this could satisfy. So, you know, I, I definitely get, because I've been through that journey, I definitely get how property can be the leveraging tool for you to fulfill your obligations financially, to get on with what you want. Some people can just cut to the chase and some people need to do that. And you know, what I love is, is working with both sides of that, but how you do anything is how you do everything. And I think, you know, I just see so many parallels and crossovers. And the funny thing is when people kind of work out you know, their beliefs, their limiting conditions, you know, the thing, reclaiming their life, often the finances come, right? The opportunities, the jobs and, and, you know, and all, all the, you know, adventure into new, new businesses. And that's, I just love seeing, I love human beings, the human doings. I'm not so keen on the human beings. I'm all in.

I love some of your expressions. They're, they're absolute crackers. Uh, Oh yeah, I haven't heard that one, but I'm gonna use it. So that is awesome. Now we've sort of danced around this and I mentioned this in the intro, but I'd love for you to break down the key elements of your unique Trident strategy because I know it's a cracker and something that would be very useful, particularly at this time for investors who are looking to go in that direction.

Yeah, look, you know, we've essentially been there and that is there's 3 ways to make money in property. When you buy. So buying below the market, if you can, seeing opportunities, if you can, maybe it's negotiation, maybe it's terms, maybe it's just the way you negotiate or put in your offer. Like, you know, one of the things that, that I teach in The Ultimate Guide to Renovation is the structure of offers. Most people put in, you know, I'm, my offer is $430,000, you know, with a 30-day settlement, 10% down, you know, that will get you a yes or no. Yeah. If you go in with, uh, you know, $430,000 at this, these conditions or $450,000 and we settle in a year's time and with 5% down, you know, that gives an either or. And I think, you know, in negotiations, we've had a very fast moving market, 2021, et cetera, beginning of '22. And people, you know, they, I still worked with people who were doing deals and, and you know, even my own experience, properties are selling in the same building, $1 million, 3 months ago, 6 months ago, and now $850,000. So, you know, I know there's deals to be done and people want to, you know, it's not just death and debt and divorce that are making people sell. It's, you know, kind of desperation, despair. They're over it. Like I'm out. And then, you know, so that's buying below the market, making money when you buy, making money with the property by creating equity out of thin air. Now I've done that personally with renovation. I teach that. I teach how you $1 to make $2, how to understand pricing disparity, how to assess the suburbs. You know, it could be adding a granny flat, it could be subdividing. It's about that adding equity whilst you have the property and, you know, making it to a higher and better use. And then it's looking at the long-term, which is capital growth. What's the pricing pressure? What is the, you know, the things that are driving this economy? And, you know, I just, I, I go deep and try to understand and reasons why. And you know, for instance, I'm not reading the papers and all the property people on what's happening in the market. Yes, I make a cursory look, but I want to get to the details myself. So, you know, I'm talking to immigration lawyers and saying, where are you guys going to be putting these 180,000 to 240,000 people in the next year? You know, where are you recommending that they go to? And they're like, well, where they get the most permanent residency points so that they can become a PR quicker. I'm like, where's that? Regional areas. Adelaide's a regional area. Hello. You know? And so you're looking at that, or I'm talking to, you know, the, uh, the Victorian regional development people and they're going, geez, you know, the regions are coming off because there's no jobs. And the, the city companies where these people worked are now, um, telling them that they can away from the job, but they're going to take a 20% pay cut. Everyone's moving back. I'm like, okay, that's the kind of information I need to know. So, you know, the Trident Strategy is around having good data, knowing where to buy, location's essential, adding quick equity and buying below the market, making money when you buy, in the meantime and at the end.

Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. Again, it's a really good, easy, memorable framework. To apply to the approach. And I often find that the simpler it is in essence, the easier it is to follow the bouncing ball. So I'd love your thoughts on that. Just while we're on that, because I know you and I had an awesome discussion on Realty Talk recently around your thoughts around the regional access to lifestyle. Let's expand a little bit more on that because there are certainly some commentators who are of the belief that there's been a permanent shift that's really shaken things up. You're, from the discussion we've had, you're not quite in that school. Can you just elaborate a little bit on that? Because I think it'd be interesting to share.

Yeah, look, I think what's really interesting, the census data is coming out at the moment. The latest information indicates that the rise of the regions may not fully be something that's sustainable. I work on premises, so I'm a scientist, an engineer at heart, and so a premise is something that's unproven. You go with it until it's proven, right? And then it becomes an immutable law. So I work on a premise that, um, you know, and you read like the Payne and Jane Slack-Smith report that shows us for the last 30 years, it's, it's established, not new houses in capital cities that outperform the market. And the longer you own the property, the better it's gonna do. And so I'm like, okay, that's a working premise. Premise. 2020, I put aside that premise and went, okay. And said to my mentoring students, like, hold back guys. I really, there's something happening here. Yeah. We need, we need to just watch this. This is not about, you know, timing the market. This is about, this is a huge shift in things. So I started researching what was happening in, you know, the Chinese property markets, Italy, US, UK, when they came back from lockdown, and I was like, September, full-on, let's go for this. But there was still that kind of people are moving to the regions. And, you know, if you're talking to a country girl, so I'm not against country towns. And I've lived in like Mudgee and Singleton as a mining engineer. I visited nearly every country town and every mining town in Australia as an expert explosives person. And so, you know, I— and this is where my family is from, you know, fifth-generation kind of farmers. So I get this this, there's an attraction to it. But I also get that, you know, those people who are in their, you know, early 40s to 50s and they've got a career and it seems nice to move to the regions, they've also got teenagers and they're like, oh, I should probably— they've had 2 years of no socialization, they probably need to have a really good, you know, schooling experience and then opportunity for, you know, on, on learning. Am I going to get that if I move to You know, Broken Hill. And so you kind of, you're looking at nothing against Broken Hill, got good friends in Broken Hill, but you know, you kind of look at that and you're like, okay, so there's that happening. And now you've got all these companies saying, if you're going to work from home, you're going to take a pay cut. And then you've got a lot of these cities that, you know, when I talk to these regional development people, they're like, there's no jobs here. People are moving here. It seems cheap, but they can't work here. So although there's someone in the family who can work remotely, the other person can't. And a lot of those country towns are actually, the people are a little bit, I'm gonna say resistant because you've taken the homes of their kids. Their kids can't stay because they can't afford a home. You know? So I think that there is a lovely whitewash that is on that narrative, but I always just follow the data. And at the moment, the data indicates that people are moving back.

Yeah. I think it's the issue here is that there's a lot of blanket statements statements made that they, that applies to all regions. And as you and I know, the devil's in the detail, Jane. And I certainly believe there are going to be regional hubs that have the critical mass of population, who have the diversity of industry and employment, and are supported by infrastructure in terms of hard infrastructure, as well as the technology infrastructure, that, and those regional hubs, I think, are going to continue to do very well. But there are a lot of others who don't tick those boxes that are just flash in the pans. So I think the essence there is that, you know, if someone takes the time to have a chat to you or myself or others who are right across what the data is telling us and can then look through the generalized statements to those areas that are ticking all of the appropriate investment boxes, That's great. But just to say, okay, well, you know, everyone's jumping on this regional access to lifestyle, therefore all regional properties are gonna be great, is a motherhood statement that is gonna get people into trouble. So yeah, definitely devil in the detail on that one.

You and I agree, Bushy, when we are talking regional, we're not talking satellite cities. We're not talking Newcastle, Central Coast, Geelong, Ballarat, Sunshine Coast. Gold Coast. We're talking, you know, 300 Ks from the coast kind of stuff.

Yeah, exactly. Oodna woop woop, just left at the Black Stump. Exactly right. Yeah, dead right. Now, I'd love to jump into education because it's an absolute passion of yours and you've built an incredible suite of opportunities for people to really educate themselves in a very safe community. You've built up massive communities. The one in particular I'd love you to elaborate on because I think it brings together beautifully renovating your mind as well as your material. That's the Renovate Yourself, Renovate Your Wealth workshop. Talk to us a bit about that because I think that's going to bridge a number of different gaps in the equation as far as that goes.

Yeah, look, it's just come from, I guess, a lifetime of learning and working with people who are investors and just seeing that sometimes there's this need and for wealth and however you define wealth, but there's this, this need for having abundance or just being comfortable. And then there is a limiting belief or there's something and there's a pattern or it just keeps on happening that just when it all seems to happen, it's robbed from you. And you know, this kind of pattern is this old operating system that I think a lot of people work on is actually undermining their success. And so So, you know, I, as I said, I work on premises until they're proven. One of the premises that I work on and probably my, my guiding light, North Star kind of premise is that the universe conspires for our success and we are the ones who get in the way of it. And so, yeah. And that's what I just, I look at it, I have these conversations with people about money and I ran this for my mentoring students. Cause I was like, you know, some of you, We're working together in getting down to the suburbs, the streets, the alerts are coming up. Like I need to understand what's going on. And so I kind of put together this Renovate Yourself, Renovate Your Wealth workshop and I ran it with them. And one of the things is, what's your, like you asked me, what's your money story? Tell me about your childhood memories. And we kind of were sharing some of these experiences and I was blown away and so were they. And they had never realized adopted the stories that their parents were telling them that they had adopted. And some of the parents were telling the stories about their parents that they're adopting. And so these money stories that were, you know, you've got to work hard for a living and once you work hard for 40 years, then you're going to get the reward, or, you know, it's the— you have to go to university to get a good job and when you get a good job, then you can afford to buy a house and have have a family, and then at the end you'll be rewarded. And, or, you know, don't be like your uncle because, you know, he made lots of money and then he lost it and he gambled it away and then he made it and then he lost it. And, you know, education's the key. And like, this guy's got an education business. And so we could actually see very clearly some of these money stories. And so this just really fascinated me. And then by diving into them and going, what do you really want? What, what is, is it a $250,000 lifestyle? If everything got taken from you tomorrow, you woke up, you're the only person alive. There's electricity and food to keep you going forever. Do you want the mansion by the water or do you want the, you know, you know, nice safe environment where you can, you know, spend your days digging up the ground and putting in a few lettuces? Do you want the Ferrari? Do you want the Gucci? You know, do you want to have that those things that you can show others? Are you trying to validate your own worth through others? And so, you know, just understanding that. And I think, you know, for me, I've always been about getting to understand people have a life story, right?

Yeah.

Their life is one thing, but their story is another. And so I want that to be separated. Let's understand the story that's replaying, because how you do anything is how you do everything. And And this is just a 1-day workshop, and, you know, I just— it's very reasonably priced, but I just want people to be able to have something affordable to just shine the light on where they are and go, you know, what is this story that I'm running with, and how is the old operating system maybe not helping me? And when I think about it, you know, we have 500 billion pieces of information that we receive into our mind every second, but we only have the capacity to actually absorb 2,000 bits of information. So although we are receiving this information, the easiest way, the path of least resistance, the comfortable, the way we do things is how we've always done things. And so we only see what we expect, and we only— and we've got this filter that is one of the past, and we're trying to define ourselves or achieve something new in the future. But we're still living with this filter in the past. And I just want to be able to help people see, you know, the opportunities for them that may exist that they have never seen before because they're living with these filters.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. I'm certainly going to strongly recommend that anyone listening signs up for that because it'll make the invisible visible in terms of your own mindset, your own paradigms, how you see the world. That you assume are correct, but there are things sitting in their subconscious there that are potentially undermining things and you need to get out of the way of yourself. And that approach that you have taken with that is gonna be revelational to anyone who may have blockages that they can't see. So look, love that. Now I wanna shift now into what I affectionately refer to as the ambush round. Jane, which are the old podcast fast 4 questions that everyone wants to glean your words of wisdom on. So to kick that off, what's your favorite quote and why?

Oh, I love the quote. There's a quote that says, "Come to the edge," he said. And they said, "I'm scared." "Come to the edge," he said. They said, "I'm scared," but they came. He pushed them and they flew.

Love it. Love it. That's self-explanatory, that one. That's conquering our own fears. Yeah, it's beautiful. What about on the literary front? You've got 100 and at least 120 property books on the shelf plus a whole bunch of others that are now getting into the mindset and how we think arena. What would be the top book that you'd recommend that we read and why?

Sure. Look, it's funny, I was talking to my mentor, William Whitecloud, the other day and I said, I have just realized that all of my books my property mentoring students, I send them your book, not mine. I should also be sending mine out. How funny is that? But I really think it, and because his book, The Magician's Way, you know, I just, I think it's a really, it's a really, uh, it's like Rich Dad Poor Dad. It's a lovely story that allows you to kind of look at, you know, some of these things that, that might be limiting you or the way that, um, you know, you could potentially be living a different type of life than what you have if you're not happy with where you are.

Yeah, I love it. That's again, it just sort of rocks our foundations and gets us to have a really good look at ourselves. So that's, I haven't got that on the Kindle yet, but that's going on my Kindle this afternoon, Jane. Now back on the investment front, what's both the worst and the best piece of investment advice that you've ever received today?

Oh, the best advice is probably, I'd have to say, buy property, bricks and mortar. You know, and do the research and just, you know, do it in a low-risk way. It doesn't have to be risky. So, you know, I think of, you know, the Jane Summers, you don't have to pay your property off, you know, get in there and understand the market, what people want. And then, you know, that's probably been my best kind of advice and that I've received. The worst advice is probably, A lot of people have warned me about, you know, you might owe too much, you might, you should wait, interest rates are going up, there's, you know, recessions coming, there's, you know, there's an Iraq war, like whatever it is, there's always an excuse. And I honestly believe, you know, that if I continue to be focused on the things that I can't control, they're just going to stress me out and I'm just going to be fixated on those and I'm going to have inertia. And so it's around understanding situation and taking action.

Yeah, yeah, totally. And taking the action is a bit— there's way too many people that fear leaves them sitting on the fence and they don't do anything. So yeah, love that. Let's talk to— and you've touched on a few of these already and shared a couple of great ones with us, but we talk about personal happy habits or rewarding rituals or daily disciplines that you employ, what's the one that's contributed most to your success today?

Definitely the ritual around making choices aligned to my vision. And you know, I'm not talking like fast cars and Hollywood houses or anything. You know, I have very, very simple visions around, you know, interacting with inspiring and stimulating people, taking me on new adventures and, you know, you're living freely from my heart and creating and guiding and empowering people in wealth creation. And, you know, I have very simple kind of visions, you know, having happy, loving, supportive relationship and lighthearted relationship with my son and husband. And so, you know, I step into that experience, you know, for 30 seconds for each of them every morning. Doesn't take me more than 5 minutes. And, you know, it aligns me for the day. And, you know, when I step outside my door every morning, I set the intention that I am going to observe, you know, the awe and wonder of the world in ways that others don't see it and see the abnormal in the normal. And, you know, I just— I love setting an intention that allows me to be aware of those other 500 billion Bits of information.

I love it. I think the curiosity of the child is long gone in many of us, Jane Slack-Smith. If we can just rediscover the awe and the wonder that is in front of our eyes rather than become blind to it, then rather than focus on what we don't have and what we haven't got, to enjoy what we do have just has a massive impact on your outlook and good attracts good. So love that. That's such a good process. And it's such a good way to start the day and enjoy the day. Now, sort of bringing it all to a close then, Jane, 'cause you've been very generous with your time today, if you were to sort of summarize our great conversation, what are the key takeaways and immediate actions that aspiring and existing investors should take?

I look, I really, I guess the message is, you know, if the universe was truly conspiring for your success and you're the one getting in the way, in your way, look at the signposts that indicate that, you know, you are getting in your way and recognize that and just have an awareness of what the old operating system is. And if you want things done differently and different outcomes, what's the new operating system? So, you know, that would be probably my number one. The second one would be invest in yourself. You know, the real estate between your ears is probably the best investment you'll ever make. And if I was gonna come up with a third, I'd probably say that inertia is essentially taking no action, is going backwards in this fast-moving world. This is as normal as the world will ever be in the future. And you really have to adapt and, you know, resilience and tenacity are one thing. I don't think you have to work hard to have what you want, but I do know that there's action to be taken.

Yeah, I love it. Beautifully said. Absolutely beautifully said. Jane Slack-Smith, what's new and next for you?

Oh, well, I'm really excited about Your Success Club, obviously. I just love this concept of bringing people to their hearts and overcoming limiting beliefs. And maybe it's about money and maybe it's about other conditions, and that is really where I'm putting my focus. You know, mentoring in in that space as well and doing, you know, business clarity kind of packages for people who are trying to define what that service is. And I just, I love being on boards, business boards and advisory boards. And I love seeing people, you know, follow what their dream is and, you know, having the business kind of background that I have and digital marketing and education and speaking and writing books and podcasts, blah, blah. But, you know, there's a, there's a lot of, you know, experiences that I've had, but more importantly, there's a lot of people I know and I just love connecting people. And so, you know, I'm just, I'm just loving exploring that space. Your Property Success, you know, the courses that are there are still there and people are still sending me messages 10 years on going, your book I bought last week and it's changed my life. And, and, you know, the information's not new, it's not sexy, It's boring, it's meat and potatoes, but geez, you know, it just has changed so many lives. And if I can just be one little cog that creates intergenerational change and has more parents sitting at the table having these conversations with their kids, setting examples, living their full life to their purpose, imagine what the next generation can do.

Yeah, absolutely, love it. Great inspiration and motivation there for all of us. And I just wanna say that, you know, given the importance of education and mentoring to anyone, success, I'm gonna challenge everyone listening to jump on yoursuccessclub.com.au. You'll see the link in the show notes and make sure you sign up for Jane's free masterclass, Roads to Riches. There's a whole bunch of other stuff there that might be just as relevant, but take the time, jump on that exercise and then you can contact with Jane and her brilliant community that she's built. So I really encourage you to make sure we do that. that. Now, before we close, Jane, I just want everyone to remember that we all need to dream like we're going to live forever and live every day like it's going to be our last. I just want to thank you for being so generous with your time on the show today, Jane. I want you to just keep up the awesome work. I'm really looking forward to staying in touch with you, and we've really only just scratched the surface today, Jane. So we'll have you back at a later point so you can continue to continue the conversation.

Absolutely. Thank you so much for the opportunity. And as you said, you know, Siamese twins, I don't think we are going to be strangers.

Excellent, Jane. We'll talk again soon. Thanks for that. Bye for now. Get a summary of all this investment gold in the show notes. Just email me on hello@khgroup.com.au. That's hello@khgroup.com.au. Khgroup.com.au or check us out at www.bussymartin.com.au/getinvested. I look forward to joining you next week for another episode of the Get Invested podcast. So thanks for listening. And as always, dream as if you live forever and live as if you'll die tomorrow.