[Debbie Thompson] ​​​​​​​From Accountant to ADHD Advocate

Welcome to Exit the Matrix Stories of Success with your host Jane Slack-Smith, where we celebrate the incredible journeys of individuals who've transcended their limitations and achieved extraordinary success.

Welcome to Exit the Matrix Stories of Success, where we explore incredible journeys of transformation and resilience, where people have a sliding door moment and they choose to exit the matrix. Now today, my very special guest is Debbie Thompson. She's a passionate educator, counselor, a mother who has navigated through diverse roles to find her true calling. Debbie's journey began in South Africa, then she moved to the UK and surprise, surprise, she found that being a chartered accountant probably wasn't her true passion in life. She went on to move to Australia. She created a STEM business with educational toys. She has had an incredible incredible life. But all of that changed when things kind of shifted, which I'll let her discuss with you. And first of all, I'd just like to welcome Deb to the podcast. Deb, how are you today?

I'm really good, thanks, Jane. Lovely to be here with you.

Now, I know what you've created, but I'd like to go back to that sliding door moment. You know, you, you'd already had a bit of a sliding door moment. You left it being a, a very successful career as an accountant. You You started the STEM educational toy business, but then what happened that changed everything and has now put you on the path that you're on today?

Um, well, it's— it was kind of a culmination, um, of a lot of things coming together at the same time. So it was, um, in 2020, actually right in the middle of COVID um, and my children all left, so I suddenly became an empty nester. Um, so, you know, I was a full-time mom for many years, so that job kind of disappeared, and the energy and time around that, um, you know, went as well. And my daughter, who was really— she was 25 at the time, and she was really struggling with anxiety. And I try to get my head wrapped around anxiety. It was in, in my, you know, in my family, my mom, and I didn't really understand it. And it's a hit combination when she was diagnosed with ADHD at 26. And it actually wasn't anxiety all along, it was ADHD. And that was like, oh my gosh, of course I should have known. If only I'd known. If only I'd had that information, because my son had been diagnosed 4 years earlier at the age of 15, more obviously, you know, the hyperactive—

boys are often diagnosed first.

Well, boys are diagnosed younger, usually because they tend to have the more hyperactive ADHD, which is much easier to observe and see. Um, and with my daughter had the inattentive stuff. And she was great at school, she never got into trouble, she tried so hard, but she was exhausted, she was burnt out, she was anxious. Um, and you know, she had— she struggled with friends, very, very typical. And you know, she just— she— the reason she got diagnosed is she just— she almost fell off the cliff and she needed to go and get help. So when the diagnosis came in, I'm like, God, why didn't we know? And at the same time, 4 of my friends' children and had got diagnosed as well in their early 20s. These are kids who all inattentive, all were doing fine at school, and then as soon as they left school and they didn't have the structure of school anymore, they all kind of fell off the wagon. It's a lot of depression. There was gambling, there was, you know, just all sorts, and low self-esteem. Gosh, these beautiful children just had such low self-esteem in their early 20s. And I just remember talking to a few people and going Why didn't we know? Why did none of us know? So there was that. But you'd been a teacher, hadn't you?

You had retrained as a teacher working in socioeconomic areas. So you'd seen, not that it's associated, but you'd actually seen through, you know, the younger, what, primary school, young high school kind of diagnosis. So you had an observation as well and you missed that for your own children.

Exactly. And you know, my son was diagnosed when I was still teaching at school and I was teaching in a low socioeconomic school where there were a lot of issues of which ADHD was one of many. And some of them were diagnosed, but many of them weren't because the cost of diagnosis is just so expensive. And, um, you know, I think I had a lot more sympathy and empathy because my son was like that. He wasn't a naughty kid, he was just bored and he couldn't sit down. And, you know, if he was interested in something, he was hyper-focused. So I tried as much as I could to, to, to involve those kids and do something that they really enjoyed, because when they were interested in something, they, you know, they, they could, they could work really hard and focus. And when they did that they had a sense of accomplishment. And, you know, kids who, who are— who get ADHD, who've got ADHD, get told off like 10 times more than, than other kids. So it's— their self-esteem is shattered by the time they get into their, you know, their teens. And so many of them feel broken and less than, and there's something wrong with me. And I remember talking to my daughter about this, and she goes, there's something wrong with me. And as soon as she went on her medication, she said Gosh, Mom, is this what it's supposed to feel like? Is this what normal life is supposed to feel like? And that's when it dawned on me, it's like, how hard must it have been for this little soul to have, you know, so many years gone, what's wrong with me?

And experiences with other people.

Yeah, yeah. And, and, and, and, and, you know, have— and to really compromise and, and, and, and, and, you know, people pleasing is a huge thing because you want to fit in. And you want to do, you want to do the right thing, you just, your executive functions doesn't allow you to do that sometimes. So this is kind of burnout. And, and I just remember being like, between that and all my friends' kids being diagnosed and COVID and, and the, um, uh, you know, young people and their mental health issues during COVID and I just went, it was almost like I was hit in the gut.

Wow.

And I went, I have I have to. It was, you know, that was the voice. I think there were quiet voices whispering in me, but I think, you know, during being a mom and working and running my own business, I didn't have time to hear these voices. And now when I had time and space, it was like, you have to do something, you have to do something, slap, slap, slap, slap.

You have to take that from a, you know, I have to do something to I'm going to do something. How did you take that action? What were the kind of issues and challenges you came up? Because it was completely completely different, right? It's a whole new business. It's just like, how do I do this? Or how do I— yeah, create something to support people?

Yeah. Um, well, the first thing I did, which I normally do because I've got ADHD as well, so if I'm interested in something, I can hyperfocus like nobody else. I can go down rabbit holes. So the first thing I did was I just learned. I read everything and everything, every book, every podcast, everything about ADHD. And then I kind of looked around and go, well, why didn't I get this when, you know, when my kids were diagnosed? Why was Why were they given medication and nothing else? And I talked to a few people and realized there really isn't that much around unless you go looking for it and you pay money for it. So you could go and pay for a course. And I just went, everybody who gets diagnosed needs this because it's not just about the medication. That's just, you know, step number one. If you don't understand why your brain works like it does, what other comorbid or coexisting conditions you might have, you're just, you know, chipping off at the, the tip of the iceberg. And also, if you understand, you know, all the other things that happen with ADHD, like rejection sensitivity, being overly sensitive— and I remember, and, and anyone who's listening to this with ADHD will probably really resonate with this— is people with ADHD are either told you're too much or you're too sensitive. And so what do you do? You people please because you just have to fit in. So, um, oh, there's my ADHD gone. I don't even know where I was going with the boys.

The thing, right, where you're going down this path of going, okay, I've had— I missed these diagnoses. Yeah, they were late. You know, boys are usually 9, 10, girls are 13, 14. My daughter is 25, 26. My son was 15. I missed it. I'm an educator. I'm going to go and research it and What I'm hearing is what you said is that even though they were diagnosed, the information that the doctors, the psychologists, the psychiatrists gave you did not satisfy an understanding of how you could support them in them understanding how they can navigate the world other than here's a medication.

That's exactly right. And so when you get the medication, it's not like go to this site. It's, you know, there's a lot of information out there on ADHD, so you can go, but the problem with the internet and podcasts and things like that is it takes a lot of time and you just want the facts, particularly if you are ADHD, particularly if you're time poor, particularly if you're supporting someone with ADHD. You just want to know what is the overview, what does it look like, what does it mean, and then what are the coexisting things that can happen, why do they happen, why does the brain work like this, and then what can I do.

So can you talk a little about these coexisting things? Like, is there— is it doesn't happen by itself is what I'm hearing?

Is that what that— ADHD loves a bit of company, right? Yes, why not? We all do. Yeah, so a lot of, um, and I can't remember offhand the exact things, but it's, it's very high. Something like 60% of children with ADHD will have some kind of learning difficulty like dyslexia or dyspraxia. And also, um, something like, depending on your age, something like 50 to 80% of people will also have anxiety thrown in as well. A little bit lower for depression. And those are the 3 most common, you know, co-occurring conditions. The other one is—

previously talked about sleep issues.

Oh yes, I was just about to bring that up. And then one of the other big ones is sleep. And anything from 60 to 80% of people will have some kind of sleep issues. So either trouble falling asleep, staying asleep, sleep routines. And looking back, both my children never slept. This is one of those things they just never slept. And, you know, without sleep, as we both know, it's the cornerstone of mental and physical well-being. So they're behind the 8th ball with the lack of sleep, and then the, you know, then, you know, with the executive functions dysregulation, they're behind that as well, plus the co-occurring, sorry, co-occurring conditions like anxiety. You know, these poor little souls are dealing with a huge amount. And without people understanding, they can come across as lazy, disinterested, naughty, and they get all these labels again and again and again. And of course they feel flawed and broken. And so I went, no, I have to, I have to, I've got a voice and I've got my education background and I've got the superpower to, to, to go in and learn. And so I thought, I'm going to pull them all together and I'm going to create a course. And I'm going to make all the medics happy. So I'm going to make sure that it's all based on the Australian Evidence-Based Clinical Practice Guidelines for ADHD, which all the doctors get. So I read that from COVID to cover, and I went, I'm going to incorporate this into my course, um, so that, you know, that there is one consistent place that's based on evidence, that if anyone gets a diagnosis, you know, doctors can feel comfortable that they're all getting the same education.

And it's evidence-based on something that has been put out by standards, I guess. Yeah, it's interesting. I had a health challenge in 2019 and a diagnosis, and, and I was with an incredible endocrinologist who diagnosed the condition. But the— I guess the symptom of that was that I had high cortisol and it never went down. I was always high. I was like the on person, the A person. And that's Cushing's disease does. And they did this test. Now recently I found a folder with tests from 2013, the exact same test with the exact same indicator that I had high cortisol, and the doctor's prescription was 4 books on meditation.

Wow.

And, and I know that Cushing's disease is, is, um, uh, rare. It's 1 in a million. I am 1 in a million.

There you go. You are 1 in a million.

I've got proof.

Yes, you are.

But, you know, just from that point of view, the, you know, that was an extra, you know, 6 years that I had of constant high cortisol where you can't create memories and you, you can't sleep through, which means you don't defrag your brain of all of the, you know, Alzheimer's plaque and everything. So all of that consistent issue. And so what I'm, you know, fascinated here with is that if you've got one place that doctors go to, I imagine there's the parents of the friends of yours who, who their children had these diagnosis, different doctors will say, oh, here's a YouTube video, check out this podcast, whatever they can find, 2 or 3 things Googling quickly, that because it's not their, their, you know, expertise, it's like, okay, let me give you some resources, like my doctor did, his 4 books on meditation. So I guess the, the thing is that you've got hit by a train, you've had this moment when you've gone, I have a voice, I'm going to do something about it, I'm going to study it. Was there like a kind of pushback or, you know, objection from your family or your friends or your partner? Like, did people go, oh, wait a second, you've got this other career going? Like, what's going on here? Like, how could you? You're a doctor, you know. Did you have that kind of, um, pressure on you?

Look, I had— as always, when you have this, this grand design, so to speak, um, there's always someone, well, what's your qualifications? And, you know, there's so much stuff out there already, um, um, where are you going to find the time to do it, and how are you going to get it out there, and who's going to listen to you, and, you know, blah blah blah blah blah. And yes, of course I got those, not from my nearest and dearest. And I also felt like in some kind of way I'd let my kiddies down by not having known this information. But how could I, you know, hindsight is a wonderful thing. But I was just I want to make sure that no other family goes through this. You know, had I known what I'd known, I would have picked this up with Matt, you know, my daughter, when she was maybe 8 or 9, maybe earlier. Um, but, and, and, and, you know, that's very common with girls. It's becoming more mainstream, um, that the inattentive ADHD is being diagnosed more. Which is brilliant because all those people who weren't diagnosed before are now getting an opportunity to be diagnosed.

Now, a quick word from our sponsor, Your Success Club. Your Success Club is a group of vibrant abundance seekers. If you subscribe to exitthematrix.io, we are going to drop you into the club room, which has lots of goodies, resources, and a free gift just for subscribing. Now back to the podcast. I just want to bring you back to that diagnosis. You did mention that it takes a while and it's expensive.

Yes.

So I know that you've created a course which I'd like to discuss in a moment, but can you give me a timeframe? Like, if someone's sitting there going, hmm, maybe I want to learn a little about, about this for my child or myself or, you know, someone that I know, um, and, you know, they'd like to access your information, The alternative of getting tested and the expense of that, like, how long does that take? Like, you alluded to the fact that it could take a while. Like, I might— I'm thinking maybe my son's got something, or maybe my daughter's got something, and then like next week we have an appointment and they do a test, and in a month we go like, okay, we're on a path. Is it like that time frame?

So often what they do is they go to their GP, and their GP, uh, now remember, GPs are dealing with how many different conditions, how can they be experts in this plus everything else? And the nuances, like with Cushing's disease, there's so many nuances that unless you're doing it all day, you can't see. So it's, you know, um, but you know, it's— if the school, um, you know, if the school's put a report out or they're really concerned, they'll get a, a ref— a referral to a psychiatrist. So a psychologist can get involved and do the testing and go 'Yep, you probably have ADHD,' and that's what a lot of people do. But a psychiatrist has to give the medication. So once you've got your medication prescribed by a psychiatrist, you can then go back into the care of the other healthcare professionals. And how long does it take to get those tests done? Look, it depends where you live. Um, and during the height of COVID a year ago, it was sometimes— many of the psychiatrists have closed their books completely. So anything from 6 to 12 months. Okay. And it can cost anything from $800 depending on how many tests you have done to $2,500. Wow. Okay. So it's, it, it's a lot of money and time, uh, and out of reach for most people. Yeah.

So, you know, let me just bring you back to how things have changed for you now. Like, you, you were, you're teaching, you had you know, you're, you're, um, you're kind of caring for your children in a new sense of the way that you're doing, even though they, they've left home. So, you know, you created this course. Can you tell me a bit about the course and what it does and how it gives the information based on, you know, these, these evidence standards that have been put out?

Um, well, the course is, is one of numerous things I did, and the course is It's, it's kind of, it's based into small modules so people can do it based on the time that they have or their interest. And it's looking at, um, what ADHD is. And I've put a number of videos together, um, so that depending on how your learning style, you can take on that information in different ways. So some of it is, um, animated videos, some is text, um, because I'm trying to cater to, you know, to everybody. And it's about what actually is ADHD, what does it look like, how is it picked up, how does it manifest, what are the coexisting conditions, um, what can we do, like what can we do with sleep, because sleep's a huge thing with ADHD, why is it a huge— what are some of the things that we can do. So that's really what the course is, is all about.

Um, and diagnosed, and their carers, guardians.

Yes, yes. So, and, and you might not even have a diagnosis, perhaps you— because there's so many online things that you could go to. You could go and do an online test, right? I'm sure everybody's had a go going, am I a bit ADHD? And you answer all the questions. It's not a diagnosis, it's absolutely not a diagnosis, but it might be a conversation starter going, you know, I've done this and I have these things, and could we go through a diagnosis? But Uh, so once you've, you know, let's say you go to your GP and you've done a test and you might have it, but you've now got to wait a year or whatever it is to see a psychiatrist to get onto the medication. There's no reason why straight away you can get some lifestyle study strategies and therapy and various other strategies that you can put in place before you get your medication. Now, medication is the you know, the most researched and the most successful in terms of outcomes. So it helps to have it first, but it doesn't suit everybody, and a lot of people choose not to take it for various reasons. Different types of medications too. Sorry?

And there's different types of medication.

Oh, there's loads of— there's loads of different types of medications. And this is the other, you know, the other issue that we're going down the route, but it can take 2 or 3 times to get it right. The first time is really— and if it works, you're very, very lucky. It's a titration trial and error until you get the right, you know, the sweet spot.

It's, um, what really interests me here, there was something that you brought up and it actually, it hurt my heart when you said it, and I just, um, want to get a little bit more clarity on it. Was it rejection and sensitivity? Sensitivity. So in the age of, you know, teenagers who haven't been diagnosed or late diagnosis and social media and like, did I get likes, did I get follows, did you— that must be really tough. It's not just I didn't get invited to the birthday party, like, this is like front and center daily, isn't it?

It is. And you know, you might not know that you've got ADHD, right? So you suffer from social anxiety, you often are very, very sensitive. So if I don't look at you, if I walk into school and I don't look at you 'Oh, you don't like me. She's got other friends.' You know, all those things go down.

You make that.

And then when you're rejected, there's something called rejection-sensitive dysphoria, which is almost an overwhelming feeling. You can't actually deal with rejection. It's, it is a, it's now considered, it's, it's a medical condition. And, you know, we get rejected, but their sense of rejection you know, that on steroids. So this— and then you struggle with friends because you're inappropriate, you, you don't know, you, you know, you interrupt people. And so this— as a teenager, gosh, there's so many things to navigate.

I love the fact— I love the name of your business, Advantage. And I guess there's a lot of relief. I mean, I imagine you've worked with, um, people, and the feedback you're getting is that they're not broken. You know, this is, this is not something that they have to cope with by themselves. This an understanding of how the brain works. There's chemical changes, there's changes which make something happen to them and how they experience things, and then giving them tools to actually navigate it. It's, it's extraordinary. But I mean, if you could, um, give me an example, have you worked with someone who's had like a, a kind of an aha when they haven't really had that previously in the support that they, you know, since diagnosis?

Oh yeah, I do a bit of— I do some one-to-one ADHD coaching, counseling, because I became a, you know, one of the things I went, I need to go and do my counseling qualification as well as my teaching qualification. Um, and so I do do some of that work. And, you know, one of the girls I was working with went, oh Debbie, thank you so much, I'm not broken. Until I'd done your course, I thought I was broken. I thought there was something wrong with me. Now I understand that my oversensitivity My, you know, inability to take any criticism, my rejection sensitivity is all part of my condition. And now that I know that, I can do something to work on that, to make it better. It won't go away, but I can find some strategies to make it better. But it's not about me. It's not about me as a personality. It's about how my brain works.

Wow, what a confidence boost that is. It strikes me that teachers are probably one of the forefront of indicators who say, hey parent, there's a bit of a problem, because as parents we don't see that many kids, we only see our own kids. So how do you support teachers in giving them this information as well? Is there something else that you have?

Yes, I did, because you know, teachers, there's so much expected of teachers and you know, the paperwork they were expected to do, um, um, you know, they're so time poor and they're trying to accommodate so many different types of children, you know, different learning styles, neurodiversity, um, and bring all those practices in. It's really challenging. And then on top of that, you've got behavioral issues as well. And kids, yep.

Classroom, so they're changing all the time.

Yeah, and educational, you know, expectations and outcomes, and I— you have to get this done and this has to be completed. So there's so many demands on you. And the, you know, the, the, one of the things with ADHD, there's quite a few myths and misconceptions around. And I guess one of the biggest ones, which is changing now, is that, um, you have to be hyperactive and a little bit naughty. You know, you're the naughty kid in the class who can't sit still, doesn't know how to, you know, shut up. And that is just one a small part of ADHD. The majority of people have the inattentive ADHD, which is the— yeah, which is the one underneath the iceberg that nobody sees. Because kids want to please their teachers, they want to please people around, so often they, they don't see— they just work so hard that they often have burnout and anxiety. Yeah, and low self-esteem. Um, so what I've created is based on the fact that they are so time poor. I've created an animated video which is only 10 minutes on what ADHD actually is, so without all the myths, and what ADHD will look, you know, commonly looks like in a classroom so that teachers can start seeing, oh, that kid might have it. Or, um, and then, then a second video on what strategies can be implemented easily and effectively that will not only just help the ADHD kids but all the other students as well.

Wow, that's amazing. Well, For everyone who's listening to this and going, I want to learn more, check out the show notes so that you can go and find the Advantage website and have a look at the course, have a look at the, the support information for teachers, for doctors who would like to have a consistent message they can give to, to their patients. And just wrapping up, Deb, I would like you to share— it's a question I ask everyone— something bizarre or different or really cool about you, unique, something unique about you that maybe not everyone knows?

Oh, gosh, right. Okay. Well, bizarrely, I have— I'm very mathematical. I did a degree in maths. But I'm also very artistic. So I paint as well. So having those two combinations is, you know, quite, quite unusual, I guess. And I'm, I'm incredibly logical, but also incredibly be, you know, intuitive at the same time. So I guess it's a dichotomy. It's like a funny mixture of extremes, you know, two extremes.

I have to say, listening to you talk about maths and art, all I went with was paint-by-numbers.

No, it's not paint-by-numbers. It's, um, it's, it's funny. My art is all based on, on, on color. I just see color. I've always is when I go into the world, you know, the world is very vivid. Like when I see a tree, it's not one green, it's 25 different greens. And I can come and put those 25 greens onto a canvas.

I have such admiration for people like that. My husband's an artist and we walk past trees and he says, what color is that? And I'll go, green. And he'll go, no, it's brown with some purple. I'm like, what?

Yeah.

And then I look at it, I'm like, yeah, okay. 'You missed that.' So you see things differently. What an incredible superpower. Well, thank you so much, Deb. I really encourage everyone to go and check out the link and, uh, find some information out about, uh, you know, ADHD, how guardians, parents, teachers, and even people who have suspect that this might be them, go and get some support and some information. Because you're not broken, it's just the way your brain works. If that's the message we're going to take away today. If you've liked this episode, I encourage you to go ahead and leave us a review. Go to exitthematrix.io, subscribe so I can send you updates when future episodes come out, and I've got a free gift for you there as well. So thank you so much, Deb, for today, and as always, here's to your success. Bye for now.

Thank you, Jane Slack-Smith-Smith-Smith. Bye-bye, Finland! Thank you for listening to Exit the Matrix Stories of Success. Make sure you subscribe to future episodes at www.exitthematrix.io. Until next time, here's to your success!