ETM With Me: Swaady Martin If You Died Today... Would You Feel Complete?

Hi Jane, so good to see you.

Oh my gosh, you know, it's been almost a year since we met and, um, I— that week that we spent together was just so special. And every time I spoke to you about something, you had another layer of information that you shared and, and you've had this most incredible background. Anyhow, so I want— I need to tell you all of what's going on here so you understand. So I'm writing this book around what it's like to live from your heart, a life of abundance, calling in, you know, the life that you want and separated from nothing, connected through all time and space. And I'm running experiments and I'm speaking to amazing people who have been through that kind of awareness stage, maybe in a corporate career where something wasn't right and they stepped out of it. They're in the awakened stage. And which is, excuse me, awakened in Bali, awakened stage where, you know, they're bringing in this abundance in life and then they activate it. And you essentially have so much information in all of these stages, but I'm right at the research part of the kind of, you know, that kind of awareness stage. And so I'm just so grateful. Like, let me just say the things that you've done, you know, and, you know, being on Oprah's O Power list of women in Africa and, you know, acting CEO you know, in, in different elements of the General Electric business in Africa. You left that, you created your own, you know, gourmet tea brand that's in Harrods. You then created the Lux brand. You then, you know, you go on all these retreats and these beauté people and these beautiful experiences. You, you're an incredible empath. You, you know, have this amazing, um, way about you. But yeah, I'm just so grateful that you agreed to talk, and I know you're so sick as well. So, uh, even more so, thank Thank you so much. So, Swati, so this is the thing that I'm trying to kind of work out here, and it's really around, you know, people who are kind of sitting in a job or in career or in life, and they're like, I should be grateful. Like, I wanted this and now I've got it, but there's something missing. And I just want to like take you back because you've had this incredible, you know, Fortune 500, you know, You've been named in all of these magazines and things. You've had this incredible corporate career. What, what kind of was the, you know, awareness and how did you experience that?

Well, I mean, I think the first thing is to have grace for yourself and to acknowledge that we're not one monolithic, you know, being. And actually our beingness is just a multitude of actually beingness. And I think if we have grace in recognizing that, you know, we can like something and the contrary, we can be something and the contrary, and we can want something and want the contrary. And I think, you know, this idea of paradox and mystery, are we able to live in that paradox and mystery and the recognition that we're actually a full spectrum of different beingness? And I think if we accept that, then I think we're not so hard on the choices we make and the changes also we make and our wants and needs that change also over time and our desires. We have more grace into that versus, you know, I wanted this and I've worked for this and I've achieved this. And once I got it, well, you know, I want something else. Well, Yeah. So, so, you know, yeah, I, I think, I think we, we, it's interesting. We live in a world where we're always trying to simplify everything. We're trying to simplify, uh, you, the human being, and we're trying to simplify even concept and ideas and dynamics that are happening in the world. You know, we, we're in this age of polarization, so everything has to be dual. It has to be black or white, A or B, yes or no. And we have a hard time living in these spaces of in-between. And so life is actually an in-between. Everything is an in-between. Life is not a yes or a no or an A or a B or a black or a white. It is that in-between. And in trying to fit ourselves into these boxes, then we create these tensions. And so what if we are able to live in the in-between, in these spaces that don't have necessarily a clear yes and a no? And it doesn't mean that you are indecisive or so, but it allows a surrendering of the present, of you in the present, of who you are in that moment. And having that clarity to be able even to express, this is the person I am in this moment, but I may be a different person in another moment. And that is okay because that's how the world is. And, you know, I mean, the polarization, of course, stems from this idea of control, but we don't control anything. And so, you know, we spend our lives trying to simplify so we can have boxes, so we can have certainties and certitudes and control. But I mean, it's just all an illusion. So what if we surrender and again, we live into these in-between spaces, then we can get to what maybe some consider the top of, you know, your corporate game of your career and then decide, well, you know what, I want something else. And it's not that you've become crazy, but it's just because you're honoring where you are in each moment. And that is the most important.

Can I just come back to— so it sounds to me a lot of it is around giving yourself permission just to be in the moment and see what sits with you. And, and, you know, you talked about grace, which is kind of like the, the past is over and not having to predict the future. It, it's just being in that awareness that, and it sounds like, you know, I think there's the book, The Surrender Experiment, right? It's, it's, it's about being in that moment of between the breath coming in and the breath going out, there's nothing. And because there's nothing, is you're saying that's kind of where the truth is?

Yeah, yeah. And, and, and I mean, I think what, what happens if we let go of needing to know? What, what happens, you know? Who are we in that, um, you know, relinquishing the framing, the boxes, the processes to really be in full attunement with what life wants to be and who we are. And I think it's a process of self-mastery. I would say more than anything, more than giving yourself permission, it's a process of knowing thyself because that's really the most important pursuit. Because if you don't know who you are, well, you'll always go chasing after things that are not fulfilling your soul. And so actually, before anything, the most important, and at any point of time, is one, know thyself, but also being in that process of, again, part of that is self-mastery. And I think once you know yourself, there's not even a question of giving yourself permission or not, because you are just who you are. You're just you in every moment because you're scary, right?

In that, that, that kind of, um, you know, we, we've grown up to say get good marks, go to school, so go to university, get a good job, marry the right person, buy the house, and then, you know, 40 years later you might retire on 40% of what you earned. Like the big fallacy of thank you for your life. Like we've been conditioned into that.

How—

and, and so it's hard to break free of that. It's hard to have the, the will and the self-mastery to go No, I'm gonna be true to myself. But have you got like some, some thoughts around if you kind of like you're experiencing that tension of the matrix that we're in and then the, but something's not right, there's some unease, like, you know, can you talk to that for me?

Well, I think, you know, there's not, uh, it's life is also a continuum. So as you are doing these things that we may label as conditioning, Uh, that doesn't stop from getting to know yourself because, you know, like you, you sit with little children, they're always pushing to the edge to see, you know, how far can I push mommy? You know, how dangerous is this situation? And, and if we observe children, that's how they, they actually get to know who they are and what is right, not wrong for them, or what is possible and how far they can go. And they develop their personalities in that sense. And for some reason, there comes a point where we stop doing that. We take everything around for granted, whereas all these situations are still— we're, we're still growing up in a way. And so when we find ourselves in a job, is what is it that I like about it? You know, is it something that is really true to my deepest longing? So it's asking those questions. So I would say we need to continue asking the questions.

And that would be my, um, uh, just have that awareness of, um, listening to the information and then taking that information and, and saying, where am I now? You know, what's happening now? Where am I now? So, so let me go back to, like, you obviously had a quite a very successful corporate career and, you know, obviously you went to school and university. Did you have a sense of spirit and self? Like, was that encouraged as a child? Were you kind of on this path for a period of time, or was there like a big event or a big awakening, or were you just like, I've had enough, I'm out of here? Like, was it a journey or was it a big event? I guess I'm saying.

Well, I'm very fortunate, actually. I was raised by parents who are very aware and so very in tune with this question. So You know, I take, I take no credit for that. I think that I grew up in an environment where you had to know yourself and that was what was important.

How did they do that? How did they do that? Like, how, what's that environment look like?

Well, it looks like actually, you know, asking questions about also our motivations, you know, why, why are we doing certain things? And it would look like, I'll give an example. For example, when our room, you know, my room was in a mess and my mom wouldn't say, well, uh, you know, your room is a mess, is in a mess. You have to tidy it, you know, which didn't really happen. But, you know, I would say at the very beginning when I didn't really pay attention to these things, like, you know, your stuff is all over here. And the question she would actually suggest is that Your environment, she would say, your environment is the reflection of your inner. So basically your room is a reflection of what is happening inside of you. So what is hap— you know, just, just the thought. And you know, I think, yeah, that's the question. Like already as a kid, you know, I felt like just annoyed. It's like, oh well, that's, you know, kind of out of ego and pride. It's like, okay, is this how I'm looking on the inside? I don't want that, you know. And then, you know, and then you start thinking about these things. Of course, you know, you're upset at that comment, but there is truth to it. And so there is a working on, okay, so I want to ensure that this outer is a reflection of my inner. So there would be little things like that. Or, you know, I was never, my mom never said, oh, you can't go out or you can't do this and that. And she's like, okay, everything is your choice. So this choice you make, well, you'll live with them. So, you know, do you want to make that choice? And then, you know, kind of really encouraging reflection. I think a lot of reading. We're a household with, uh, where reading was extremely important. Uh, there was reading time, uh, always. Um, discovery. So, um, that's another thing, you know, travel and discover and question, uh, being exposed to different things. So I think that, that was really kind of the environment. My environment was very much about exposure to diversity, questioning, and questioning always where we are, you know, and also analyzing.

You say, you know, you say you watch children and they push the boundary, they push the boundary. At some stage we go, okay, this is my boundary. Where your experience is, you were encouraged to go, the boundary is always expanding. Like there isn't, there isn't a kind of a level that you get to and you go, okay, this is my lot in life. There's always this experience where you're searching seeking and know that there's something more.

And, you know, I mean, also, again, you know, I take no credit for that. I've also been very fortunate, you know, I lived also, I grew up in a household that was very peaceful. And, and, you know, there was a lot of silence. I didn't grow up in an environment that was hectic, you know, because everyone in my house is an introvert, you know, so And I'm the most extrovert of the introverts in my family. So, you know, in a life of a household of introverts is actually pretty peaceful because everyone likes to read and being their own corner and there's never screaming or too much noise. And also in the house, you know, everyone is an empath. So, um, that also, you know, creates that you know, that, that peace where no one wants to be stimulated so much. So I think I'm, you know, I'm very, very, very fortunate to have evolved in that environment. And I, and I have to give it credit because, you know, otherwise it's like there's no, you know, of course then there is a story because everyone has a journey, but I, I'm pretty fortunate in that sense that I didn't have to overcome maybe some of the challenges that maybe other people would face, you know, in that way.

So what's being an empath like? What's— what does that mean? You've a family of empaths. Is deeply connected to other people, people's emotions, or what does that mean?

Well, people who are very sensitive. I think both my mom and— I was raised by a single mom— both my mom and my brother there and myself, and everyone is very sensitive to external stimuli. So Um, it was then, hence we had a very, you know, peaceful environment where everything was very peaceful, very organized, very, um, yeah, very tidy. Uh, very, you know, it's a, it's a kind of, uh, yes, because I think that was important one, I guess, for my mom, but also for us as being in, in family of where everyone is so sensitive to everything.

Yeah. So how do you break free from that? How do you go into like the big corporate machines and live with their expectations being sensitive and also being, I guess, an introvert and brought up to question everything in a structure that says my way or the highway? Like, did you have— was that a problem?

No, because actually I've always showed up in places being myself. I never tried to fit in. And I think that's really what made me also, part of what made me successful in my career is that, um, I had no attachment to promotion. I'm ambitious and I was ambitious in the corporate, but I was not so attached to, I was not doing things to please other people.

Right.

Um, because one of the other things that I grew up with is that you have to live every day as it's your last, but also as you're we're going to live forever. So that sense of impermanence is also something that, you know, has been very vivid in my being. And so whenever I'm somewhere and I'm doing something, I'm very present that, okay, is this where I want to be if I'm going to die in 5 minutes? And so I never do, I never do, you know, that's one of the things, to be honest, I never do things I don't want to do. So if I'm somewhere, I'm fully here. Like, I'm with you now, Jane. If I was told that I'm going to die in the next 5 minutes, I would not rush anywhere. I've said everything I need to say to the people I need to say. I'm ready to die in any moment. Like, I'm literally the place where I want to be. I'll be like just here. I don't need to call anyone. I don't need to rush to do anything, nothing. And so I've lived my life like this for a long time now, so, you know, eventually it's just a habit.

So you're living as if, you know, no regrets, nothing else to do, but you're also living as if you're going to live forever. How does that duality happen?

Well, so basically the other part is that you— there is a bit of planning, is that if I want to— these are the desires maybe of my soul and where I feel drawn to, and so I have to take certain actions now that, you know, kind of direct me in that, on that path without having a set attachment to it. But, you know, kind of a gentle way of, you know, I'm always on the path to my dreams in a way, you know, but without being attached to it, but also being ready to let go of it in any moment, you know. And so To come back to, that was part of that, the way I show up and the way I showed up in the corporate world. And so that detachment actually gives a lot of freedom and creates also much more authentic connection with the people around. And you were talking about the heart-centered existence. That was a heart-centered way to be in a corporate environment. And because I guess I operated from that standpoint, which is not very common, it created also a lot of trust. It made that people enjoyed working with me. They could trust me. It changed the atmosphere. So people also felt free also to be more authentic and it didn't matter at which level. So that, that brought actually not just freedom for me, but for everyone. And of course it doesn't mean that it was easy all the time. Of course, you know, you live, you work in an environment that's a corporate machine. But I always was very honest about where I was, you know, and I was very clear always that I was not chasing the promotion. And I think that also made it very free for me because I honestly, I didn't care if I would be fired the next day. That's so cool. Because my, my life is bigger than a job in the corporation. And I think that's also the other thing is that I can't be reduced to being a corporate employee. And that was very clear for me. So being in a corporate job was just, I was doing it because I enjoyed it. I mean, like, seriously, I loved every minute at GE. I had the best time of my life. I loved, I mean, it was tough. I worked a lot. Yeah, but it was so much fun. Yeah. And the day, the day that's not where I wanted to be anymore, you know, at kind of the height of the career where there was so many more opportunities that were presented to me, that's, you know, kind of where anyone would have thought, wow, this is incredible. At such a young age, you would be possibly promoted to this and that. Um, but that's not where I wanted to be anymore. And so I had no problem. Changing to do something else.

Okay, so, so I'm researching this book, right? And so I'm, I'm at this stage where, you know, what I'm hearing is if you, if you are comfortable in yourself, you know who you are, and you have completed everything, so you are happy with, you know, the life you've lived in case it, it doesn't continue. There's also a freedom though that, that says we'll go on and live that life, you know, have the dreams and the vision and, and have something to work towards. But a lot of people get caught up with, I don't have the money to give up my job. I don't have the resources. It was okay for, for you. You guys went to university. It was okay for these people that had, you know, two parents. Like everyone's got these kind of why I can't do it. Like you've seen that. You've worked with a lot of people. I know you, you're an amazing, um, you know, guide for so many. How do you address that with this life of kind of abundance and being self-referential and experiences happen to you, you have choice, to I'm in the constraints of how I have to live?

Well, I mean, you know, one of the things that has kept me extremely grounded is that I grew up in an environment that surrounding, not myself, but I was surrounded by people who were extremely poor. You know, I grew up in West Africa, and the poverty that you see just around the corner, and the majority of the people, by the way, you know, it's sobering. You know, it's kind of, okay, well, truly, I, it's, you know, it's pure, again, divine grace that I have the comfort and the privilege I have, even being able to eat 3 times a day, go to school, have clothing, have even water, etc., when literally you, you live in a sea of misery. And so even though there was that sea of misery, people are happy. And so very early on, you know, I realized that happiness is not tied to materiality. It can help. It can help. Doesn't mean that, you know, It's not one or the other. It can help, but it's not a necessary condition to happiness. And, and that I think has really kept me grounded where very early on, actually I did make, and that was a, a, it was a clear, uh, contract with myself because I said it, you know, because it's important the words you say. I said it, I will never tie my happiness to money or materiality. I said it with my voice, articulated it when I was already young.

Wow.

And that was a contract I made with myself. And I made a few contracts of that sort. And that, you know, it's a contract. I've signed it with my own soul, with my own existence, and I live by it.

Wow, I love this concept of having a contract with your soul. Like, yeah, How do you see through that? Like, if we were talking about there was a way that people could, you know, have that kind of relationship with what they do and don't accept, you know, how does that work?

Yeah, well, I mean, even now I live in Bali. I mean, actually, recently last week, I have a friend who a few days ago actually was complaining about lack of money, and I was like, just open your eyes. Like, literally, we just walked past a shop a family-owned shop by a Balinese. Their entire money is tied to the stock that is in this shop. An entire family is living, you know, from the sales of this shop. And maybe they sell a light bulb here, you know, a little tissue box here, and that an entire family, father, mother, children, is living. Their entire wealth is in that shop. That is, by the way, just at the front of their house.

Yeah.

And they're not unhappy. They live. And so we, we have to get outside of ourselves and look at people around and, and see. And so I think that's also bring a certain humility is that, you know, if people are going to, if people can live in that way, well, why not? You know, the human, humans are extremely resilient. It doesn't mean that this is what you want, but I think we are extremely resilient and we can accommodate a lot of situations, even war. You know, people live in war and they still find a way of living, and I've experienced war. So I think also once you have these experiences, you're not so attached to materiality. Yes, I have a beautiful home, I enjoy it, but if I didn't have it, I'll be also very happy because I didn't have it all my life either. So whatever I get, I'm happy. If I don't, I'm happy. My joy is not tied to materiality.

So, so this concept of a contract with the soul, how would I go about doing that?

Well, I mean, I think for me, I don't know how one would go, but I think the one thing I did, and that was also something I was conscious very young, you know, experiencing war at a young age, I really question, why is it that we still have wars? And I don't understand, like, we keep having those wars. We know how they're going to end up. It's always the same. We fight, we destroy, and then we make peace agreements, and then we rebuild. Why is it in the first place that we have to go all the way to having the wars destroy everything before we can discuss? And that was my experience. You know, I experienced war. I was already 2 years old, you know, and then it went on. You know, West Africa was very unstable like that. And so one contract I made with myself is that I would learn from history.

Right.

And so that was the first thing. And then from that is learning. And when I talk, when I say history is not just the, you know, history in terms of events, but also history in terms of the wisdoms that have been passed on. And so I've been very interested in wisdom from a very young age, and most of my life to this day is what are those wisdoms that have been passed on and that I need to learn from so I don't repeat unnecessarily the errors of some of, you know, forefathers or what creates that society. And I used to pray, actually, I used You know, I thought I, I always thought I lacked wisdom and I used to pray God every day, God, please give me wisdom, give me wisdom, give me wisdom. When am I going to become wise?

That's, I, I, um, you, and I had to learn just to finish.

I consider myself today as a wise person, but to get there, first of all, I prayed a lot, but also I had to learn from all the wisdom keepers before.

So, so how does prayer fit into your life? How does that, um, you know, bring about wisdom or peace or comfort? How does that— what's the, the power of prayer for you?

Well, I mean, prayer is, uh, is, I would say, the soundtrack. It's both— is the soundtrack of my life, but also I want my life to be prayer, and I'm trying to live my life as prayer itself, uh, and the communication to— with God. Is, uh, that relationship is a very, um, unfiltered, you know, is like, is a constant presence. And it's, uh, it's, hey, what's up today? You know, what's going on?

Is that important for people, do you think, to have a belief system or a belief of something higher that, that they have that relationship with?

Well, I mean, I, I don't know. I, I personally, you know, uh, I, I I couldn't live without God. Actually, yesterday I was telling my spiritual director, I was saying if I didn't have faith in God, you know, I just could simply not live. I didn't have that belief early on, but you know, I really started being anchored to that belief in my early 20s when I think the big questions started to happen and You know, I think before, almost your parents represent God in a way, you know, that's the higher authority. So you don't really have to question because there is this higher authority. And then once you become free from that and you become an adult, well, you know, I guess the search for that higher authority maybe led me to deepening my faith in God. But yeah, and I think, you know, to come back to your question on contracts, so I think people just, you know, it's probably an idea of what are some of the things that are important for you and that you believe maybe, I mean, make a happy life. I think we have to be clear about that. And I think there's enough people who have lived life before us, who have left wisdom for us to know what makes a happy life. And everyone will tell you that love definitely makes a happy life, connection, heart-centered living makes a happy life. Detachment from materiality doesn't again create a happy life, a healthy lifestyle create a happy life. So we have all these wisdoms, and then which ones are we contracting with ourselves that we want to live? And, you know, sometimes it's not going to be perfect every day, but at least if we know we have a contract, we try to abide by that as much as possible. Then eventually it becomes a lifestyle, and eventually you lead that happy life. Yeah. And then that happy life for me included God at some point where I made a contract with myself when I was 21, and now I'm 47, that God would be the most important thing in my life. And that was a contract that I made with my soul.

Because it's interesting, isn't it? Because we started off talking about the space, like the space from the past and the future, like that space. And it strikes me that some of the most wise people that I've spoken to, or people who just feel, you know, you kind of talk to people and you're like, they got their stuff together. Like they're good. Like, you know, they're grounded. They're not looking for other people's opinions or anything. They're comfortable in their own skin. They seem to have this, I don't know what it is. They just have this inner knowing. And I always wonder like, is it meditation? Is it the awareness of of being an observer rather than in it. You know, things happen through me, not to me, all of those kind of things. And it strikes me that prayer is one of those kind of mechanisms as well where you create the space. Is that something that you identify with?

Yeah. And I think the other practice that I find very useful is actually to run the scenario all the way to the end because you can be praying, but if you have so much fear in you, um, you know, it, it actually still in the way of your joy. And so, you know, a lot of times we, we have this fear of, of lack. Okay, I'm not going to have, um, any money, maybe I lose my job, and then how am I going to pay my rent? And how— and so one of the practice I find very, uh, liberating is actually to run the full scenario and to say, well, okay, and which I've done with myself is like Okay, Swati, if today you didn't have any money, none, what would you do to eat, to, you know, to have a shelter, whatever? And so I run the scenario and at the end, you know, the scenario is not bad. You know, there's always an option.

The fear of what you don't know is worse than knowing.

Exactly. Because what happens is that we stop, we don't run the full scenario. We just stop at the beginning. It's like, well, if I lose my job, I won't be able to pay my rent and my, my kids' schools and all. And we stop there. Now run the full scenario. Okay. That is happening now. What will you do? It's just a scenario. It doesn't mean that, but what will you do? And I think in being creative in finding, okay, I would find a solution here. I would do this. Maybe I'll go stay at my sister, at my brother, at my uncle. I would go stay at the monastery. I would do some volunteering. You know, I don't know. There are so many possibilities. It doesn't, it's not easy necessarily, but life is not easy anyway. But at least I think in running these scenarios and finding that, you know what, it's actually not that dramatic.

Yeah, okay, so we overcomplicate things. We get—

and then you're free. And so once you've run the scenario and you've almost lived it and you're like, oh, okay, well, you know, it won't be great if I stay, you know, I, I stay with my brother or my uncle or my parents or whoever. It's, it's not a greatest scenario, but is it that bad? Okay, it's not the end of the world, you know. It's still— I, I still have somewhere I stay, you know, maybe. I'm just giving an example. I think everyone has some kind of options of some sort. Again, the human is extremely resilient, and there's always some ways. And I find that the people who are actually the most worried and stressed are often the people who have the most. And so, you know, people who have nothing are already, you know, in, in that state where they, they're trying to problem solve constantly for their situation. But the people who end up in being in these states of anxiety and fear are people who are generally actually already living in some kind of comfort or have experienced comfort and then maybe are now in the situation that is not so comfortable anymore and are still wanting the same thing as before and the attachment. And I mean, it's, it's all stories. So Are you also able to let go of the life you had and embrace a new life? You know, and that's also that, you know, your, your, your life may not look like what it was before, but it'll never, you know, your life at, uh, at, you know, 20 doesn't look like your life at 5, and it's not looking at what your life will be at 60 or 70. You actually started, you know, this call saying, well, you end up working all your life. To then get a pension which is a fraction of what you earn. So your life is not going to be the same anyway.

Yeah, exactly.

So know that already. Why live in that fear, that anxiety, when anyway it is a given that your life is going to change?

Yeah, I love that. Well, I want to come back to what you talked about wisdom, because as a wise woman, um, you— I know last time we spoke you were doing like 2 PhDs into into, into faith kind of studies. And you, you know, you have this relationship with God and prayer, but you have— you seem to have a, a understanding of all faiths and faiths and spiritual kind of practices, etc. I'm, I'm fascinated with, you know, the fact that we have— I just— the constructs, the constructs of one country compared to another country is an invisible line, you know, and we have different languages and different money and different ways and different rules, and we've constructed this, and we have this construct around our religions, but at the base of them, I— all— they all to me seem they have very similar type of messages. You obviously have studied these quite extensively. Is that something like, is there some universal messages that faiths and different spiritual practices have?

But I mean, the one thing first, uh, I find that's really fascinating is when you travel, the closer you get to the border, the people from one country are actually more similar to the people of the other country. So even within one country, there's no such thing as, as, uh, again, that monolithic. So it's just, again, just an, an, an idea, because if you're at the frontier between Germany and France, actually the French who are at that frontier are much more like German than they are like French. And so it's, it's, it's like, uh, it's like colors, you know, like watercolors where the color is very strong and as you go it just fades. Exactly. And then it starts blending into the other color. And so countries are like watercolor.

Um, who's got her mother lives Czech Republic. And during her life, she's lived in 5 different countries but never moved house.

Yeah, yeah.

The reorientation of the borders, like, that just blows me away, right?

Yeah, yeah. I, you know, it's like, it's, it's this beautiful watercolor, like, the unit, you know, the Earth is a watercolor painting where, like, it kind of blends. And so the artists who are in there know that. I think it's people who are, you know, kind of looking, are trying to make you believe that actually it's all colored in the same color. No, it's not colored. It's not colored with ink, you know, kind of strong ink. It's like watercolor. So that's— well, I, you know, I don't know that I want to reduce— I think in my search and in my studies, I was not really looking at one universal truth because I don't know that even I'm so attached to the concept of truth. I don't have a position yet on that. I don't know if truth exists. I don't know.

Tell me, what do you mean by that? What's your definition of truth? You haven't found it, but what's your definition? Is the truth like the Holy Grail? You find this thing and angels sing, or is truth just this gentle being?

Yeah, I don't know if there is one truth, you know, I'm still on the, I'm still investigating this question. I know that some things are true for me in a moment. I don't know yet if there are things that are true all the time. I don't know.

Okay. So let's zoom out then. And you've studied a lot of religions.

Yeah.

Why have you done that? Like what, what has been, is that, that just been, I can learn from history and see where things are going? Or is it a genuine kind of how are they different? How are they similar? Like, why have you studied so much around the same?

I'm, I'm from a very mixed background and, uh, I have a mother who's French Guinean and Ivorian, so French and West Africa, and a father who's African American, but also with some German heritage. And so, uh, all these have been very alive in, in me. And so, of course, it creates a being that's a bit different, especially if you live in an environment where people tend to come from one culture. And so I, I was always fascinated by diversity because I lived diversity within myself. And, uh, and so I was very curious about diversity and I observed, especially at a young age in school, that, uh, other kids are not necessarily kind. With things that are different, with kids who are different. And so I was always drawn to, um, the people who— the, the kids were like, you know, no one wanted to talk to them because they were different. Maybe they were shy or they were— yeah, I can see that you would be that way too.

I always had the friends that sat by themselves. Why, why are they sitting by themselves?

And yeah.

They smell. And I was like, because it was the only Greek child and she ate olives and no one had olives in the '70s. And I was like, oh, I don't think she smells. Like, it just fascinated me. Um, I, I would hate people being alone. I didn't— I hadn't even the concept of the fact that some people like being alone, but, um, which has been something only in later life that I've learned. But yeah, that, um, idea of the difference and, and kids can be so mean about it, that's That is quite striking.

Yeah. And so I've been, that's been something I've been very always, um, extremely sensitive to, you know, like diversity. And, uh, for that also, I never liked groups because I never liked things that would try to annihilate, uh, someone's, uh, expression of their diverse selves because I wanted to express that. I wanted that freedom. And so I maybe felt that I wanted that for everyone, you know, for everyone to be able just to be. And so, um, in that, I would say my first, um, interest was into understanding humans, uh, philosophy, psychology, um, diversity. And then, and then of course, you know, people fight so much for religions. I guess with my own affinity for things of a spiritual nature, I was very interested in why do we create so much disharmony, so, you know, why there's just so much argument with people who are supposedly believing in something that's so incredible and expensive massive and beautiful. And so that started, you know, also that journey, but also in my search for wisdom and understanding what brings happiness, how I can live the most free, empowered, and happy life. I also went to search it in the different faiths, and each time I would discover some incredible things. I think that's excited me more to go and dig deeper and deeper. Oh, what are the Kabbalists saying? What are the Jews saying? What are the Sufis and the Muslims and the Hindus and the Jains and the Pahai and, you know, and all of these multitudes and within each one so much diversity. But I find there's just a lot of wisdom that you find in religion, religions in general. And so that's where, you know, I guess my search, like, took me. There's also a lot of dogma, which, you know, I'm very resistant to dogma. But yeah, I think that's, that's been the, the interest. So from that, literally from diversity acceptance to, of course, you know, social justice. I'm very also interested in issues around race and, and not just religion, but every, everything that others that otherness.

The definitions that people put that create that.

And so that's why in a way I'm reluctant to settle even to a definition of truth, because we end up fighting so much around—

keep stretching, right? Your boundaries keep moving.

And so if truth is not something that I actually need to settle, you know, can I live— again, for me it's always that, can I live in the mystery and the paradox and the unknowing? And, and that's always the, the thing. Is it, it's okay not to know.

It is okay not to. So tell me this then, how do we orientate ourselves to the vision or the dream life or what we wanna create? Like there is a paradox, right? Of letting go, not needing to know, but still I wanna have, you know, a beautiful relationship with an amazing man and have beautiful children that have great relationships with and live in a comfortable home and travel every now and then, or whatever it is. You know, how do we define what we want but live here without attachment to it? Like, have you got some thoughts on that?

Well, I mean, my answer, you know, may not be really the answer, but, um, you know, I think very like in my 20s, my prayer has been God, thy will, not mine. And so that's really what I'm trying to do every day.

So you don't mind what happens, like you have no attachment.

And when I have an attachment, I actually fight the attachment. So I spend more energy actually dealing with my desires than working towards my desires. So it's a shift of— it's an energetic shift. So I'm not— so let's say you were taking the example, I want a beautiful home. Instead of my energy going into, I'm going to put all my energy into visualizing this home and working with this home, I'm working my energy towards, I don't want to want a beautiful home. I don't want to have any wants. And that's where my energy goes.

So how does that work? How does that draw that to you?

Well, I mean, the thing is, I, you know, again, I I trust that the life, and that's also my experience, not just my trust, you know, the life that I have is bigger than anything I would have dreamed of. So my dreams are always smaller than what actually is possible for me. And in trying to, I see, to work towards these dreams, I'm actually limiting myself. And so what I want to do is actually not get in the way. So I'm working. My work is to not get in the way of the life that the incredible, beautiful, incredible life that would never imagine is possible. And I don't even know what that life is. And so I have to get out of the way of that, of imagining things, because then I start manifesting things and then they're always smaller. And so people, and this is what also you find people get dissatisfied because, you know, the human spirit is very strong. So as we start manifesting things, well, we get the home, we get the husband or the wife, we get the kids, and then we're unhappy. It's because you ended up manifesting your smallest dream. Because the God who's created this world— I mean, listen, the world that we see could not come out of a human mind. I mean, we are actually spending our time destroying it. So whatever we call it, God, Source, the higher consciousness, has a creativity that's beyond anything that a human brain can possibly imagine. And so I want to defer to that brain to imagine my life, not, not my own brain.

Oh, so this is really exciting because, so what I'm hearing here is if you open yourself up to your highest consciousness and have a, a sense of not needing to know and letting go of what's possible, but knowing that you want to be happy. And it's the experience of the happiness. How that manifests isn't the doodads or the things that could turn up, because as a human consciousness, whatever we can imagine is actually so small compared to the potential of what could be created for us. So it's letting go.

Yeah, I could never— I mean, I feel so blessed. I could never imagine the life I've had and the life I have. It could never come out of my own brain. The only thing though I'm committed to is trying to show up the best way possible at every point of time, meaning, you know, I'm not lazy. I'm doing the work that I need to do. As I said, you know, I'm trying to stay on the path, you know, I'm trying to work on myself, trying to be a better person every day. You know, I'm doing the work and it's not easy and that is enough work. And so I'm, it's a shift of energy instead of putting my energy into trying to manifest the future. I'm putting my energy in trying to let go, become a better person, surrender more, being more in alignment. And then the rest, that takes already a lot of time. But I want to do that work. And so I let God or Source or whatever we call it, I'll call it God because that's the word I use, to manage the rest. And that's what I say is like, God, I'm doing my work. And that requires, I mean, to To do inner work is a lot of work.

And so mastery that you talked about.

Yeah. And, and, and I, that's where I want to put my energy. Um, because if you're so focused on doing the outer work, you're not doing the inner work. And then you find yourself, you know, at 50, 60 or whatever age now, it's even younger because people get depleted much sooner and they're just like, wow, I feel lost because now I've manifested all these things, but, um, unhealthy, burnout. I've lost connection with life, with everything, and I should be happy. And, you know, anyway, everyone has a different journey, but my journey was learn, you know, again, like, what, what are the elders saying? And so very quickly was like, okay, it is very clear that if you follow a spiritual path in a very dedicated way, that can lead or that leads to some kind of inner freedom and peace. And I could witness it because I spent a lot of time in monasteries and I was very fortunate to, of all kinds, meet people who are so joyful and content and peaceful. And that's what I've been looking for. And these are people who have made vows of celibacy, poverty, and all of that. And still, they exude a peace that when people are burned out, they go to the monastery to go and experience that. And so if you already know that, so that should be my work. That's what I should aim for. Like yesterday, my spiritual director, after I was expressing all these things, she was like, what do you want me to pray for you? And I said, you know, I just want you to pray for me to get more out of the way, because anything that is creating even this flu-ish condition is me being in a way. Um, and so I take everything as where are those places where I'm still in the way. So I don't block the divine blessings in my life. They can just flow. And I want to be like, like mind blown, you know, like I don't want I don't want to see the things that I've dreamed. I want God to surprise me, to be like, wow, I never imagined that. Oh my gosh, wow. Yeah, yeah, I want to live in awe. I don't want to live in, oh, I've worked so hard and I did what I said I would do. No, I want to be blown away, to be like, okay, cheeky God, wow, you blew my mind.

I love this relationship you have with God, this cheekiness and this kind of, you know, chatting, and it makes me think, having a spiritual director, you know, we should all have a board of directors that we, we have on our team, but a spiritual director is a lovely, um, addition. Um, I just, I just want to come to— you talked about these people with this peace, and two of the people I've interviewed recently both mentioned to me that they had been to India and they had met living saints. They had met people who had this ability to resurrect and transmute and create on a different level. Have you had that experience of there's people who walk amongst us that have, you know, this other?

Yeah, and there are many, and you find them in all faiths. You know, I've been on a very dedicated path, as I shared earlier, since I'm 21. That has been the priority of my life. Everything else, my corporate job, my entrepreneurial job, now my nonprofit and other activities have always been secondary. They were just part of the decor. They were never the, you know, they were never the goal. And so in that, yes, I've just encountered the most extraordinary people and keep encountering them. You know, there's really extraordinary people and they're not on social media or anywhere. You have to go and find them where they are and you're just, you know, fully immersed in their peace and wisdom and contentment. And that's really for me, you know, everyone defines success differently, but for me, that's really, you know, where I aspire. Whether I'll reach it, who knows, it doesn't really matter, but at least I'm walking the journey, doing the best I can.

Oh, Swati, I have to say I've got goosebumps. I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, you know, that what we've talked about, like the letting go of the need to know, the being present, living life as if it's your last minutes, but still having this orientation of going, there's awe and wonder, and I'm not going to limit what that experience could be by my own human brain. And also that sense of not being constrained by whatever those boundaries are, always having that You know, some people call it growth mindset, or maybe it's spirit mindset. And having the soul contracts with yourself, that's kind of like the not negotiables. This is my orientation of how I want to turn up. And we're all after happiness. And, and, you know, I spoke to this lady the other day and she said she'd visited this orphanage and she said, why are these children so happy? And he said, because they're living in the moment and they're playing and they're This is what they've known and this is them turning up fully. And so like you say, you know, the living this life of abundance isn't the money. It's really an abundance of spirit and soul and connection and how you can turn up the best. So you've inspired me. I've got a whole new chapter of my book.

And I'm sorry, I was a little bit, uh, you know, tired and old, but I guess, you know, it is part of what it is as well. You know, I actually love in that way showing up also.

I really appreciate you showing up because I know—

where we are, you know, meeting each other and, you know, it was beautiful. First of all, I love that we're here on Ash Wednesday and that we're having this time together. I love the showing up. you know, in a different way and being, uh, you know, letting go of all these stories, you know, and, and just being present to what wants to be.

So, but anyhow, well, look, thank you so much, Swati. I just so appreciate, I'm just, my mind is boggling with the kind of experiments of these soul contracts and letting go of the need to know and happiness and, and being yourself. So I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna play with this and with the community and And yeah, I'm so grateful that you turned up.

Yeah, thank you so much, Jane, for everything you do always and just for being this wonderful, wonderful light being for the world and for all of us. And yeah, I'm looking forward, and I think more than happiness, actually, I should say that what I'm looking for is harmony.

Yeah, oh, lovely.

Harmony versus happiness.

Oh, that comes back to the diversity too, doesn't it? You know, one of the nicest things— I think you told me probably the nicest compliment I have ever had in my entire life. And you said, you said something like, when I met you, you gave me faith again in humanity. And I was like, for someone to see you so transparently and see something above and beyond what you see in yourself. Like, I really have to thank you because that's true, it was amazing. I was just like, who is this person?

Yes, no, it's true, you came at a time, you know, definitely. And now that you're saying that, I remember you literally came at a time where, you know, I, I was not, uh, maybe, you know, I needed new eyes. But I think just to see you, the beauty of you, the generosity, just the light. And I mean, just everything you exude was like, wow, okay. Yeah, it did reignite that. And it's true. I thank you for that because you just came at the perfect time.

Well, I think it might have become my soul contract because I thought if I could turn up like that every day, you never know who you can influence and inspire. So I appreciate you putting light onto that.

So Thank you, thank you everyone, and thank you Jane Slack-Smith. Bless you, bless you too.

Bye-bye.