In The Beginning - The Journey of Jane Slack-Smith

Hey folks, Rob Flux here with another one of our series, In the Beginning: The Journey of Australia's Greatest Property Minds. And in this series, we're going to be talking to the 1% property people that have achieved massive success, and we're going to take them all the way back to the very, very beginning of their journey to understand how and why they got into property and what deal number one was. And the whole idea being to inspire you guys to say that no matter where you start, most of us have got very similar journeys and where can you actually go. Now today's session is a very special friend of mine, Jane Slack-Smith. Jane and I go back nearly close to 10 years and back then I think I had a little bit of hair but Jane, for those of you who don't know, has an 8-figure property profile. She owns a mortgage business that's been Mortgage Business of the Year at least twice that I know of and probably in the running several times. She also runs her own mentoring program where she helps people through one— sorry, let me— that's all folks— Your Property Success, where she actually mentors students on how how to actually get into property themselves. So with that all said, welcome Jane Slack-Smith. Hey Jane, how are you?

Good, thank you, Ro.

Sorry for fumbling my words. That's terrible.

You should have practiced.

I did practice, I did. So welcome Jane, and thank you for sharing your story with everybody. And as I touched on, we're going to go all the way back to the bits that people don't know that dim, dark past that is Jane Slack-Smith. So now, I'm sure that, you know, that's not that far away for you, you know, young, sprightly person like yourself.

You're being charming. I turned 51 at the end of last year. So, you know, it feels like a long, a long time ago. Well, I'm interested in unwrapping the onion skins and seeing, you know, what will actually serve people in, I guess, my journey and how they might take a little bit of information or inspiration to—

It's all about the inspiration side of things. Absolutely. So, and the whole point being, all of us have to start somewhere. It doesn't matter who you are. Everyone has to do deal number one. And it's crazy how many times when we actually go back to who we see as super successful people, that their journey is just like every single one of us. And so that's kind of the point today. So let's go back to your dim dark past, Jane. So well before you even thought about property, You were, I guess, an explosives engineer, yes?

Yes, I was, yeah.

Blowin' shit up.

You know, it was kind of a good end of the day when you'd had a bad day, where you just pressed a button and a mountain would blow up. It was like such good stress relief. And people didn't cross you, or if they did, they didn't open up any brown paper bags that were delivered to their address. But you know, seriously, I grew up in Dubbo on a farm. My dad was a farm manager there and my folks have never owned their own home. And so I didn't really grow up in a lifestyle where we talked about property or the economy. I think everyone was kind of always struggling to make enough money to do what we were doing. But as kids, my sister and I were never really aware of that. You know, the house was always full of laughter and love. And, you know, we were just always supported to follow our dreams and do what our hearts desired. So, you know, didn't come with a silver spoon in my mouth, but I definitely came with, you know, a lot of credentials and support to allow me to dream big.

Well, and I think you've said to me in the past that your dad, as a farmer, was working 6.5 days a week and used to run market gardens and all sorts of things like that. Working hard was kind of the work ethic of the house. Like many of us, you know, work hard and you'll eventually get there. But humble beginnings. So I guess in going through that process, even before you, I guess, went on your, I guess, let's just say first career. Tell me a little bit about yourself and how you grew up. You said you grew up in Dubbo. What was that like?

You know, we were out on the farm, and so it really was, I guess, not the typical, you know, growing up in town kind of lifestyle where you could just pop in and go to a friend's house or go to movies. We really had to entertain ourselves on the farm. And, you know, as you said, parents worked really hard, but, you know, we were always given opportunities to try new things. And, you know, I can remember my mum setting us up with, you know, school holiday programs. And looking back a bit, you know, she had to work and dad had to work. And so they were finding things for us to do. But we'd have people take us to the zoo and, you know, learn how to draw zebras and stuff. So we were always kind of curious. And that was always something that was encouraged. And, you know, mum used to say, you know, you can do anything but fly, and with God's help, you can fly. So we really grew up just thinking, you know, the world was our oyster and we could do anything. And I I think it got to a stage where it became a little obvious that my mother had had the opportunity. She grew up on Flinders Island in Bass Strait, one of nine. And she went to boarding school because there just really wasn't that high school experience on the island. And she wanted us to have a better education. And my father, who was super bright and used to read the Encyclopedia Britannica, he was called in by his dad and said, well, you know, I've got two sons. One of you can go to university and the other one can stay and work on the farm from, you know, the age of 14, or you can both finish Year 12. And so Dad said, well, I'll stay on the farm and work so my brother can go to uni. So, you know, my dad kind of had given up his education. So education was important. They saw that as an opportunity for people to, I guess, take a step out of the level that they were in or, you know, the lifestyle that they were kind of on that journey or path to. And so, you know, my parents, they sacrificed quite a lot to send my sister and myself to boarding school in year 9. So I went from like this, you know, drought, flood, drought, flood kind of farm life where, you know, my dad was the farm laborer there and my mum was a nurse and subsequently had her own little business. And, you know, drove into this incredible school at Rose Bay, King Coppell, with the views of the harbour where you sat every day, you know, having lunch in the harbour. And, you know, Mum and Dad had a Datsun 200B 2-door that they drive into the gates of the school with. And there was kids at 16 getting, you know, $100,000 cars just to drive around in on their pays. So that was a very different lifestyle.

Yeah, I equally went to boarding school and I can empathize with you with boarding school life is like. Very similar. Didn't have any money and everyone around me did. So I know what it's like to, I guess, be associated with that sort of thing. But that in itself can actually inspire you to actually take on extra elements and go, well, if they can do it, then I can do it sort of thing. So was that part of your world or?

Yeah, it was interesting. Although I can, you know, there was kids at the school whose fathers were ambassadors overseas and there was other, you know, the boarders who you lived with, mostly they were farm kids and, you know, their parents did it pretty tough and in the drought there was, you know, trouble in kind of paying the bills and all of those things that went on. But there was like the trendies and the snobs and all of that and I was kind of like, you know, late to the party because they'd all been together since year 7. And, you know, it was difficult to break in. And I had the assumption also that as a French order of nuns that were running the school, that I was going to have to learn to speak French to eat dinner every night, which turned out to be completely false, thank God. But, you know, it was really difficult because my family was so close. I was the most homesick child they'd had in 125 years. They called my parents and said, we think she should go home. And I was like, no, no, I know this is the best place for me. Like, I know this will give me opportunities. And you know, you learn resilience and you learn how to get on with people from all walks of life. And you know, you learn how to be dependent on yourself. And you know, you can't get mum and dad to write a letter to say the dog ate my homework. You've got to just turn up, right? You know the story.

No dogs allowed when you're in boarding school. Yes, the biggest lesson I learned from boarding school is not to be doing the right thing, but how to be seen to be doing the right thing.

Interesting. No, I was a goody two shoes, Rob. I was headboarder. I played by the rules.

I was never goody two shoes. I was always bending the rules in every way, shape, or form. So yes, you would have been getting me in a lot of trouble, I'm sure.

I wouldn't have been dobbling you in, but I would have been thinking bad thoughts.

You probably still are. Okay, so that's, I guess, high school. And then you went on to get into uni. And I guess, again, coming through the, I guess, a meagre upbringing, how did you find your way into uni?

Yeah, it was interesting. I knew that I had to get to uni. I knew that having a degree behind me was— and, you know, my parents didn't have one. I knew that education was kind of the way. Everyone at school, you know, went to uni. But I was also very acutely aware that I needed to get a scholarship to go to university or, you know, somehow fund that education. And, you know, I'd been at boarding school. It wasn't like I'd had, like, the job down at Macca's on a Saturday afternoon. I had no exposure to having a job. So, you know, a lot of kids that go to uni have kind of had some type of employment. And, you know, the most employment I'd had, if I went home and was a little bit too high-horsted about, you know, being at boarding school, or my best friend's parents are sailing around the world at the moment, you know, Dad would put me on the plough for 12 hours. So, you know, I kind of came back down to earth. So it was always, I was always very grounded around my origins and my family. And I remember saying to mum and dad, well, look, I really love public relations. I love speaking to people. I'm really good at science and maths. I'm gonna have to get a scholarship. I don't know what to apply for. And they're like, well, let's just get the book of scholarships. And God bless their souls. They didn't know there was anything other than there must be a list of scholarships. And somehow or other, pre-internet, they found it. And there was just all of these scholarships that were going. And I can remember still being in the lounging floor. I think we addressed like 150 letters saying, you know, I want a scholarship, basically. And I was so keen to get into— I think Bathurst had like this public relations course. And they're like, no, you're not really good at writing English. I'm like, yeah, that's pretty true. And so I was offered a couple of scholarship interviews at BHP down at Wollongong. And then New South Wales Uni had this co-op program where you had to kind of spend time with employers, and they had them in all different areas. And it seemed quite obvious that engineering was an area that, you know, I could fit into because I had the maths and the science. And, you know, blow me over with a feather, they said come down for an interview. So I rocked on up, Dad drove me down, and they said, you know, what's your background in mining, and you know, what motivates you about being in mining? And I was like, well, you know, my dad's a farmer, I guess I'm just going to dig a bit deeper. And they're like, okay, she doesn't know either. And then I remember, I think it was CSR, they interviewed me and they said, we really, you know, we really want you to work for us because we don't have any girls. And I was like, this is like 4 years into the degree of mining engineering. Engineering after they offered it to me. And I was like, yeah, but I'm like third or fourth in the class, like I'm smart. And they're like, yeah, but we need a girl. And I was like, wow, this is weird. And I'd had this kind of weird experiences. Even my first lecturer was weird about girls. So yeah, it was an interesting experience.

Yeah, I guess I can imagine that being a female in that in that world is very much seen as an outsider and would have had a lot of barriers that you would have had to have broken down to actually succeed. So how did that work for you?

Look, when I actually was given the scholarship or awarded the scholarship, they rang my school first and said, oh, we're just letting you know that Jane Slack-Smith has been awarded the Co-op Scholarship for Mining Engineering. And they said, oh no, it must be a different Jane Slack-Smith. You know, we don't breed engineers at this school. I was like, hmm. And then they rang my mum and she said, no, it must be a different Jane Slack-Smith. I'm sure she wanted the PR. No. And so I was just like, no, it is mine. Like, I've got to get to uni. I've got to learn how to learn. And it doesn't really matter what I do learn. And so I went in quite ignorant and the first day we turned up, there was 5 girls and about 30 guys. And so it was a nice intimate, you know, group. And it didn't cross my mind, having gone from an all-girls school, that there would be anything different to maybe 50/50 girls and guys. And they'd only ever had 5 women graduate in the previous 20 years. So it became this big hoo-ha, and the Sydney Morning Herald there was taking photos of us. And the guys started getting a bit resentful. I'm like, let's let's just meet at the pub after we've done our photo shoot. I was like, what is going on here? And it was just a, it blindsided me. I didn't expect it. And then walked into the first lecture and the lecturer, there was like 35 of us and the lecturer said, I want all the girls at the back. And he was this really old, one of those really old lecturers that I think just had tenure and hung around. And he said, I want you at the back because I know you're here to get husbands and you're not here to learn, and so I refuse to teach you. Oh my God, what do we walk into? And he didn't last very long, let's just put it that way.

Yes. So you kind of fell into the engineering side of things then, and I guess as you got to the end of your degree, then trying to get your first job, how did that transition kind of happen?

Oh, look, I was so fortunate because I had that cooperative scholarship where everyone else was off, you know, surfing and having fun on the holidays. I actually had to spend like 100 days, you know, 2 or 3 months every end of every year on a mine site of the 4 or 5 mining companies that actually made this scholarship. And there was a couple of us on it. And, you know, coming from a background where, you know, you're focused on minimum wage and, you know, I don't know, $25,000 a year or whatever. And I And I was turning up at these mine sites for, you know, 3 months. And a lot of the coal mine sites, they had a thing called bonuses. So depending on how much coal went through the wash plant, there was a bonus given for everyone on site. So I might be making like $600 a week and then a bonus of $800. And so it kind of, so I had this scholarship and I then had all this extra money. So all of a sudden I was like, oh my God, I'm going to take my parents on a holiday to the most exotic place in the world, Port Douglas. And you know, and I helped, I put my sister through boarding school then. And so I all of a sudden had this, this money. And at the same time, I was nannying in Double Bay for a stockbroker and his wife who had a 12 and 13-year-old son and daughter who they were happier if someone was there at the end of the day to keep them away from the high-stressed husband, so they can have their Gs and Ts. And they were wonderful. I had a bed, they had two cleaning ladies and pool guy and a window guy. You know, they had this, this amazing lifestyle. And, and, and I was, you know, living there, tutoring their kids by the day. I had the scholarship, and then all of a sudden there was this bonus. And so at the end of my employment, the 4 companies essentially said, you know, we, we want you to work for us. And I had then the opportunity, you know, knowing what my folks were on, to take a job back in like I don't know, what was it, $92,000 of $80,000, which is like double the average. Yeah, that'd be great now, right? And so, um, and so I started working with ECMAU, which was Exxon Coal and Minerals. And, um, although I had been living technically in Sydney in boarding school and university since I was, you know, 14, um, They got an accommodation consultant for me because I was from Dubbo. And so I had this lady showing me places I could rent and she's— and I was like, oh no, I can only afford to be with like a flatmate. And so I was having like the— she was doing these pre-interviews for flatmates. And I mean, it was just all different and they paid for my accommodation for the first 2 months for the big move to the city. And so I was— it was really extraordinary. And then I moved, they wanted me to move to Singleton and that was really, you know, my first on site experience. And, you know, there was Rob Neal, was the mine manager there, and he called me into the office. I was terrified because I thought they're going to find out I know nothing. And he said, I think you know nothing. It's my job to teach you. And I thought, oh, what a relief.

They worked that out first go. Yes.

I guess it's that obvious. Everyone else thought I was pretty good. I got honors, but hey. So I mean, as you know, what you learn doesn't really always— learn technically doesn't always manifest to practicality. So, I knew that I had to put on the steel-capped boots and the hard hat and get to work. And I'd had the benefit of being at a lot of these different sites over my university back time so that I could actually get in there and labor with them.

Yeah, and so as a mining engineer, I guess you were learning to blow stuff up, which is the fun part of the whole experience. So tell us a little bit about what do we have to do to blow up half a mine? How does that work?

Oh, it's pretty good actually. It's funny, every now and then, you know, I'll say something like, it'll be a big I'll see a 240-ton truck on TV and I'll say, "Oh, I've got a license to drive one of those. I've got a license to drive that forklift." Or, you know, I worked underground for a year to get my manager's ticket on night shift because the fundamental belief is you can't ask someone to do something that you haven't done yourself. So, you know, I drive shuttle cars, you know, rock bolt and all of those things that you do, you know, swim out in the water to try to retrieve a pump. And, you know, so for me it was, it was an incredible immersive experience that gave me such a wonderful, I guess, landscape to learn information. And the more I broke down the barriers, like the first mine I turned up to, everyone went on strike because they'd never had a female work underground there before. So, you know, it wasn't always happy sailing, but I'm a bit of a chatter and I chat and someone feels sorry for me and they chat to me and they just see that, you know, really I was just into work. I was there to dig in and, yeah, they gave me a few breaks and would show me how to, you know, drive something so I wouldn't wreck it. And so I drive it until they let me drive something else. So, you know, I was always just there, always constantly learning. And, you know, I'm to this day so appreciative of all of the the CFMEU, you know, workers that I'd work beside and learn from. And, you know, I'd get to the stage where I'm thinking when I'm underground, gosh, you know, this could be improved. When I'm an engineer, I can improve this, you know, the ventilation system, if there's a fire, you know, won't quite work if this happens. And I'd go up and talk to the other engineers and I go, okay, I think we could do this, this, this. And they'd say, no, no, you're a dumb fed, which is Dumb Federation Union worker. You're not paid to think. And I was just like, what? You've got like 300 men on the ground who, who are doing this every day and seeing opportunities, and they're talking to me about, you know, if we did it like this, it'd be so much more efficient. And I was like, I could be the conduit between, you know, all these great ideas and the management. And the management are like, no, no, they're dumb feds. You don't, you don't take knowledge from those people. I was thinking Gosh, you know, I've seen people like my parents who are super clever people, but could be considered to be the dumb ones because of the jobs they have or whatever. And it really struck me how not to take people on face value, you know, get to know people first, understand their skills and opportunities because everyone has a story. And by virtue of that story, it's where they are at the moment, but it doesn't define them. And, you know, even today, this is a conversation I have with my mentoring students nearly every day.

So we haven't yet touched on the property side of things, but working inside the mine taught you a lot about safety and I guess risk mitigation and all those sorts of things, which I know are a fundamental part of what became part of your property journey. So what are some of the lessons you learned in that, I guess, risk mitigation side of things that you carried through to the property side?

I guess the risk side of it went back to my thesis at university. So I was just, I was just so enamored with the people I was working with when I was on site working with them. And so I was coming up with these kind of, and I guess they were, it was put into HR, HR kind of, you know, optimization of workforces and idea generation and applications and how to improve safety by getting everyone's buy-in, not from top down. And My lecturers used to say, if you want to go down that path, you'll get an arts degree. We can't give you an engineering degree if you do something like that silly stuff for your thesis. And I thought, this is insane. So I did all this research and I found this gentleman called Jim Joye, and he had in Canada done this amazing thing called risk assessment. And we're talking late '90s here, and no one had ever heard of risk assessment. So I found at university a placement where I could could kind of learn from him. And this idea of there's a likelihood of something going wrong, there's a consequence, and if it's really bad, don't do it. If it's, if it's kind of bad, but you can put it in procedures and something to stop it, then that's okay. And if it's okay, smooth sailing. So that just kind of was how I would think in ideas of risk. So I did a thesis on it. And then as an explosives engineer for the last 10 years of my 20-year career, it was every single day you were thinking, what can go wrong? And as a quarry service manager for Orica, or then ICI, you know, and then the tech service manager for Australia and training all the shop fires around Australia, etc., with the team in Asia and overseas, I just kept learning that, you know, everything just came down to how you assessed risk. And it just started You know, even in my personal life, I'd go out with girlfriends to a nightclub and the first thing I'd be is like, so where's the exit? You know, in case there's a fire or something, how can I get everyone out? And it just became the way that I would think is how do I de-risk things? And yeah, I mean, you were in the mines, you know how risk assessment probably was pretty big then.

Yeah, I was working in IT in the mines, so I went to a lot of mine sites, didn't go underground like you did, didn't get to blow anything up. But the IT side of things, we were looking after the remote automations of those trucks that you got to drive. I got to put in systems that actually then made them self-drive. So I wish that I got to drive one of those, you know, giant Tonka truck. But yes, risk mitigation. And Warren Buffett famously says that, you know, risk is only there if you don't know what you're doing. So when you actually, when you educate yourself, then you can actually identify the risk, you put those risk mitigation elements in place like you touched on. So yes, which is a good segue to, I guess, the property world. So you did all of that, I guess, pre-property. What was the segue that got you starting to think about property?

Um, there was so many things, right? Um, it was funny, I was talking to my husband about this today. I was always trying new things and doing new things. And, and I, you know, I still remember like in my early 20s, if my friends couldn't find me, they'd go to the front of a bookshop and yell out, Jane, are you in the self-help section? Yes. I'm down here reading a book on something or other. And it just fascinated me how people achieve success. And I thought there has to be a formula to this. If there's a formula, you know, an engineering formula to the way that we can construct things and do things, then there must be a formula to how you can have success. Now, I also had some like limiting belief stories going on in my mind in the sense that, you know, I don't really deserve the money that I'm earning. There's so many people who work harder than me. Look at my folks, you know, and some money just like beautifully just ran through my fingers. And at the end of every day, you know, a week, I was earning money, but I was spending more. And it got to the stage where I was visiting a girlfriend who was working over in New Zealand. And I was waiting for lunchtime. And I went and picked up a book and it was Rich Dad Poor Dad. And I'm sitting there under this tree in New Zealand. And he said, do you work for your money or does your money work for you? And I was like, What is this? And it just, um, I was just like this, this whisperer going, okay, there's something to this because I am working really hard on my money, but I don't end up with any. How can you make your money work for you? And so I started going down this path of, um, there's something more to this because at the moment I'm blowing everything. I've got a great lifestyle. I'm helping my friends who you know, can't find a flatmate, so I rent a spare room for them. I, you know, put my sister through Sydney school and uni. I'm like, you know, parents got sent on their first overseas trip, you know, all of these things. I was like, there's got to be more than this. And if something doesn't— my parents don't know how, right? So if I don't secure their future, who's going to secure their future? So I needed to get down into, um, what I could do at that stage to How can I make money work for me? And that kind of started that fascination, that part of my journey.

Yeah, you touched on something really quickly there and you skimmed over it. I want to go back to it if I can. You said, I want to help Mum and Dad with a home. And I know from knowing you long enough that that was actually your why. That was why are you wanting to do this? You actually wanted to give back to them for everything that given to you. So tell us a little more about why having a why is so important and how strong your why was.

Yeah, it's, and it's kind of funny in the sense that that just became the thing that I was like, well, there's not going to be anyone to look after them except for my sister and myself. And, you know, they have done so much, they sacrificed so much to send us to school, to give us this education and give us the gift of having the freedom of choice to doing what want, then, you know, that became a real compelling reason for me to, you know, seek a way to do things better. And it's interesting, you know, now that you say that, because that kind of why then became a lot bigger in the sense that the injustice of the difference in wealth just really hit home to me. And, and I just You shouldn't have to be wealthy to get the secrets of the wealthy, and you shouldn't have to have money to make money. And, you know, I was just always looking at, well, how do everyday Australians— who's looking after them? You know, how do we democratize wealth to allow everyday Australians to actually make money? Which is where my why is now, because I know my parents are good, but, you know, I just think that, um, for me, having that reason that was I've got to get better at this. It's nice for us all to have some nice doodads and indulgences. And you know, I was never a big doodad person. My first car was like a straight-six, what was it, Kingswood? And so, you know, one of the shovel operators had put together in his spare time. So, you know, it wasn't like I was really living life of luxury, but I was aware that I could do things better.

Very good. And so Rich Dad Poor Dad, it's amazing how many people are inspired or have been inspired to start their journey by Rich Dad Poor Dad, whether it be in business or in property. But it's uncanny the number of people that read that book and I guess kickstart their journey. So I guess once you started that, okay, there must be a better way. What was then, I guess, the process to kind of expand that knowledge and fill the hunger that you was trying to that you were starting to build. Where did you start to go from there?

It's probably meeting my now husband, Todd. So, you know, we've been together over like 22 years. So I think it's like '98 that I met him through this friend in New Zealand. He was a Kiwi. He probably still is. Sorry?

He probably still is.

I know. I made him give it up on the condition— he only gave it up on the condition that he didn't have to give up the All Blacks. You know, the bane of my life. Unfortunately, the Wallabies have never actually done that well against them. But anyhow, different story in our household. You don't need to know our situation. But yeah, it's a very divisive, uh, Wallaby All Black camp. But, um, he, he had a lawn mowing business, and he kind of graduated during, you know, recession in, in New Zealand. So he had to keep— he kept doing university courses because there was no jobs, and he had you know, Masters of Economic History and, you know, Masters of all these different things and very clever person. But in the lead-up to university, he had this lawn mowing business and he was mowing this guy's lawn and this guy's like 25 and Todd would have been like 18, 17, 18. And the guy said, you did such a good job, do you want to do my other properties? And Todd's like, what do you mean you got other properties? He said, the first one's the hardest, but once I got the money to buy the first property, I now have 5 properties. And he's like, how can you be 25 with 5 properties? Like, what are you doing? And so he kind of got intrigued that property was the way. And his father and mother, they would buy properties. The dad would do them up and they'd flip them or they'd sell them, which was, you know, it wasn't a word back then. This is just what they did. They just upgraded each time. And so he'd kind of been on the tools with his dad doing retaining walls and, you know, all of that kind of stuff. And so he'd seen his parents kind of upgrade the home and he had this kind of twinkling. And so he had bought a property and it's like, this has to be the way. So as soon as I pay it off in 10 years' time, I can do something else. And we kind of met and he was like, property's the way. And my boss, at Aurica used to say to me, I can't wait for you to get a mortgage, get a house and get a mortgage because then you're tied to me for life. And I was like, I'm a 28-year-old footloose and fancy-free female. I don't want to be tied to a job for life. And so I resisted the whole property story. And for my 30th birthday, it seemed like a very big investment at the time. I spent $500 each on 3 different financial planners. And I was like, there's got to be an easy way to make this liquid. And, and I had at the time I'd saved $20,000, but I also had an extra $25,000 that I'd put in super, and they gave you that opportunity to pull it out. So I had like $45,000, which just seemed like at 30 so much money. And I pulled it out and I said to them, what can we do? And this one guy's like, I'm gonna day trade for you. I was like, 'Oh, it sounds a little risky. I don't think I trust you that much.' And the other two essentially said to me, you know, 'Well, we're financial planners. Our job is to find your risk profile, and then our companies we work for tell us based on the risk profile where we have to slot you into a managed fund.' I was like, 'Well, don't you do anything like personalized? My boyfriend's kind of into property, and he reckons it's a thing.' They're like, 'Oh no, no, we can't talk to you about property.' I was like, 'Why not?' And they said, Oh no, it's just not an asset that we're allowed to talk about. Well, how can you financial plan and give me all the options if you can't talk about one of the biggest options that most Australians hold their wealth? And they went, nah.

One of the biggest scams in financial planning history is the fact that they're not allowed to talk about property.

Oh no, I was like, how does that work? Anyhow, so they made recommendations about this, two different managed funds for the two different people, and I kind of walked away from that experience $1,500 less in my pocket, but thousands of dollars more in knowledge about the fact that I was going to have to take responsibility for my own knowledge. And so Todd and I, we pretty much ventured off into every, all of the 2-hour, well, they were never webinars then, but the 2-hour free sessions you'd go to after work. And I was just fascinated by all these stories that people had. And they're like, you know, and I made all this money and I've got this red sports car and my beautiful girlfriend. Beachfront house, and then I lost it all. I was like, oh my God, what happened? And like, I'd be taking these notes, and it got to the point where I'd probably been to like 20 of these talks. I was like, how can everyone lose it all? Like, what are they all doing wrong here? I was like, what if I just write down all of the things they do wrong and then just skip that bit? Like, this kind of makes sense to me, right? And so it's like, you know, I trusted the wrong person, I bought off the plans. Someone sold me, you know, a dream in the middle of nowhere and I didn't do my numbers. I had some dodgy real estate agent. And so I was like, okay, I'm just gonna skip that. And I think there's something to it. And then a friend, a lady that Todd respected who he was working with, and he was in IT too, she said, there's this guy in Melbourne and like he's He's like, he's got this whole formula for property investing and it's got all these secret stuff. You're not going to believe it. You don't have to pay off your property before you can buy another one. And we're like, no. And then, so we started reading books and Jane Slack-Smith was the first book. I was like, oh my God, you don't have to start, you don't have to pay off all your property before you can access equity. Oh, look, he's got secret sauce. And so we went to Henry's 2-hour thing.

And Henry being Henry Kay, the famous Henry Kay.

Yes, he later went to jail, that Henry Kay. But Henry Kay said, don't ever buy property off the people who tell you how to buy property. And then he's like, and run to the back of the room and buy a property.

Yeah, so look over here, and by the way, I've got this thing over here to sell you from the movie Up.

So yeah, the, so I kind of It kind of didn't sit with me, but his education, there seemed to be a system. And as an engineer, I was like, I have to be able to de-risk this. If I know all the risks now, because I know how everyone else got it wrong, I can de-risk those. But how are people getting it right? There has to be a formula. And so I couldn't afford it because I was still blowing my money at that stage. And so I was like, I can pay this, you know, $2,000. And I was like, felt like the most expensive, you know, year 2000 course ever. And, um, and Todd went off to this 3-day course and he'd come back and he'd go, you're not going to believe it, there's this thing called like tax variation. What? Let me research it. And so he'd come back with these ideas and we'd wake up in the middle of the night and go, what about this? And so it really, that, that first kind of, um, awareness that there was something that I didn't know really excited me. And then that learning process of why can't I hack this? Like, how hard could it be?

And you're using that risk mitigation profile to try and read through all the spruikers and kind of pull out the real information as opposed to what they're actually trying to sell you. So I'm now glad that you mentioned Jan Somers. I read Jan's book when I was 20, and inspired me to buy my first investment property at the age of 21. So I spent nearly 20 years, I guess, doing buy and hold based on just reading that one book, plus a little bit of research. But so Jane has inspired a lot of people. And I'd love— Jane, if you're out there, I would love to try and get you on this series at some point, if at all possible.

Let me tell you, I might be able to hook you up because I actually asked her to be the first guest on my podcast, Your Property Success, and she was very gracious and she came and spoke. And then Kim Kiyosaki came and spoke as well because I was like fangirling them both. And I think they couldn't say no. But yeah, they just, you know, and I think that's, I mean, that's kind of why I agreed to do this because it's not going to I know that everyone's not, you know, listens to my story and thinks, wow, that's inspiring. But, you know, there's going to be one or two people that go, hey, maybe I could do something I didn't think I could do. And that's why I agreed to it. And that's, you know, you find the person that resonates with you. And Jane just so resonated with me. And I was just like, wow, it sounds so simple. And she's a schoolteacher. She made it sound simple, right? I felt like I was in a class going, okay, now do this. Okay, that makes sense. So that's what we did. I applied some of that, I applied some of Henry's work, I applied some of the work that I'd seen other investors do when they got it right after they had their big recovery story. And, you know, for me, de-risking was basic. It was like, buy what they want, where they want it. I'm like, well, who are they? I need to understand the days and where do they want to be? They want to be close to where they work. So let's start with 10 kilometers around CBD. And I was in Melbourne at the time. And then get rid of the three-quarters of the suburbs I can't afford because I only had $425,000 to spend and get to know the suburbs. I was like, well, who are they? Who is going to be my tenants? And who are going to be the people who are going to buy my property in the future? And so I started looking at, at these suburbs and getting to know them and getting to know the demographics. And then I was like, I could really stuff this up. Who am I to think I can do this? I'm inventing this stuff. I'm taking a little bit of everyone's things. How can I mitigate making no money or buying in the wrong area? I need a plan B. I was like, what if I can manufacture equity? I was like, yes! I'll just make it appear from nowhere. There has to be a way. And that became my renovation strategy. And I was like, okay, so how can I mitigate the risk of doing a bad renovation or renovation that's not going to make money? And I was like, well, if I can work out in a suburb what the unrenovated properties are and then what the renovated properties are, and there's enough gap in between to cover my costs and my holding costs and my renovation costs and my profit, then that could work. And that, you know, Essentially became the Trident Strategy that, you know, 20 years later is still, you know, stood the test of time, stood the test of time for thousands of my students. And essentially it's like, know the area, know where you're buying, understand what people want, understand the bell curve, like understand what the majority want. Because if you have to sell quickly, you want to sell to the biggest audience. If you have to rent it out, you want the typical person who wants the property. So you want the typical property in an area. And I was like, well, I want to make money out of this. I want it to go up in value. So how can I work out where it's going to go up in value? I'm like, well, if there's like a ripple and you know, one area has gone up in value and then people can't afford it, they're going to move to the next area. Like, this is like, makes sense to me. So I was like, there's going to be pricing pressure. So how can I get pricing pressure? And I remember thinking, if I could have like 100 years worth of data and I could do a regression analysis and work out what suburbs that are really successful now, where were they at certain parts of time, that'd be great. And then I realized that, you know, the regular Joe only gets access to the last 10 years worth of data. So I was like, okay, I'm going to have to use that one. If I can get 20 years worth of data, that'd be great, but I've only got 10 years. So I look at the pricing pressure. And so I was looking at where some suburbs had had growth and the next ones were coming along. And then I knew the typical market cause I knew the demographics. Hello, Australia seems to be the only country that has amazing census data. And then I was looking at how I could renovate with that disparity. And then I thought, well, if I could, if I could get a few skills around negotiation and buying below the market as well, if I can buy below the market, I'm making money from day one. If I can add value with the renovation, I'm making money. In the midterm? And if I've got capital growth, there's the answer. And so that just became the way we did it.

And there are so many similarities whilst our investment strategy is different. So you are a long-term buy and hold and I'm, I guess, a pure manufactured growth type kind of guy. The number of similarities in, hey, we have to know where people are actually buying stuff. We have to become area experts. All of those elements are Exactly the same. It's just the way that we're actually manufacturing the profit is different.

So you walk out into the backyard and you go, here is the growth opportunity for me. And I walk into the property and go, and here is how I can manufacture the growth opportunity. So yeah, and it's that Trident strategy where it is we can add a higher and better value. I do that through renovation. You do that through developments. Some people do it through subdivisions and granny flats But it's that higher and better value that escalates the growth opportunity quickly. And then you can decide if you want to sell or hold.

Yeah. So, so that was your, I guess, coming up with a methodology at the time. You didn't actually have a name to it. Now you call it the Trident Methodology. But you went in and you and Todd each bought a deal each. So I guess deal number 1 for you, deal number 1 for Todd. Who was the winner out of that little contest?

Oh, oh, that's what I say to him. You can't leave me because I'm going to take half. But then again, because you won't let us have a dog, if you want to go, but no, bless his heart. It's, I guess I've never thought about that. He always tells me that we did a test once and it came up again this week and he has one IQ point higher than mine and every now and then he'll go, It's the IQ point. So he's probably ahead a bit further. He definitely retired earlier at 40. You know, he was like out of IT and following his dream of being a portrait and realistic artist.

So he's like sponging off of you? Is that what you said?

Oh no, not at all. He more than looked after and funded his entire move into art.

John, if you're listening, mate, it was tongue in cheek. All good.

He inspired me because he had done a property before, but he also had— he's more of a risk taker than I was. When I was like, oh, we should do more of this research, research, he's like, enough research, it's now time to hit the streets and let's get going. And I think the thing was, I You know, there's been a study done recently that says the most successful people, the one thing it came down to was marrying the right person. And I have to say, I feel blessed that I married the right person to be a partner in this deal, having, you know, in this life. But it's interesting, all of my mentoring students are investors in solitude. If they might be single or they have partners like you do it. So I know there's a lot of people who don't have the the benefit of a partner who supports their vision. And we very much, at that time, we came up with 3 suburbs that we're going to get to know, and that was Collingwood and Fitzroy and Carlton. And we went to the open homes, we went to, for every open home we went to, we went to one rental open home to see what the potential tenants were saying and looking for, and also assessing what the agents were like. Jane Slack-Smith. We went to renovated properties and unrenovated properties to see the pricing disparity. And we really got to a point within about 3 months where within 2 to 5% at auction, we could say what the property was going to go for. And I remember driving down this amazing street in Carlton and it was just luxurious, beautiful. You could see—

So this is the number 1, yeah? Just confirming. Number 1, yeah. You're number 1, let's go.

We could see the horse and carts kind of like going down the street, just beautiful street. And I remember Todd saying, one day we'll live in a street like this. And I was like, yeah. And it was funny because that was the first properties. There was these two properties side by side, built in 1860, two terraces on separate titles, but one bill of sale. And I remember thinking, I'd seen that Sally Field movie where her husband had died and the bank manager came and said, you probably didn't know this, but you're going bankrupt really fast. It was about cotton, cotton farm. And she was like, really? Gee, I wish I'd known about finances. So I really, I saw that as a young impressionable teenager and I thought, I'm never going to not know about my own financial situation. And so it was like, no, man's not a financial planner. I'm going to do it by myself. And so, you know, I had my loan, he had his loan. We had, you know, the research that we were doing in the same area, what we're going to do. But these two properties came up. And so I can afford less than Todd. He was earning more than me. And it went down to like $975,000. And I said, we're going to pass it in. And at this stage, you know, I was like, advocate of the Residex reports and I had all the Residex reports, I knew the comparable sales and I also had the pest and building inspection that said it would cost $50,000 before it was accessible for anyone to walk in the front door. It was going to be so horrible. We went in as the highest bidders with those two pieces of information and obviously we chose the comparable sales that were in our favor. You're never going to sell this. Look at the $50,000 of work that has to be done before we start renovating. And the lady had tried to sell previously. So through Residex, we could see the previous sales that had, you know, auctions and price expectations that didn't go through. And I remember the agent coming in and saying, hey, there's some QCs out there, there's lawyers out there going, these two young kids can't afford these properties. We'll put like $5,000 on top of whatever they offer. And to his credit, he didn't do it. And we did the deal and I paid $425,000 for my side. And Todd, who had the nicer side and the parking, he paid $450,000 for his. And they're worth over $2 million each today.

Nice. Very nice. So that was deal number 1. And then you did the reno on them. You identified $50,000 worth of renovation that So this is, this is the funny thing is the $50,000 that was in that report was nothing we ever did.

It was like, you know, they were just like, you know, you know, everything's gonna fall down. I'm like, really? So cosmetic renovation. So I had $45,000 and $25,000 went to stamp duty. So I had $20,000. So I had like a 5% deposit just. And so I paid mortgage insurance, got a 95% loan. And I know a lot of people get in their head about mortgage insurance. And I was just like, this is an opportunity cost. If I wait another 5 years for me to have a 20% deposit, that $425,000 property is going to be worth like $500,000, $600,000. And I'm looking at the equivalent of a $250,000 property today. So I knew that there was an opportunity cost. And I then took a personal loan because I spent all my money, right? $50,000 personal loan. And did the renovation on the property. And, you know, we renovated two properties at once. So the one builder was doing it, and we thought they were pretty clever because, you know, when they rip out the kitchen of one, we've got the kitchen in the other one, and they rip out one bathroom, we've got the other one. And, you know, everything was going to plan until the first week, and it rained, and the builder ripped out both kitchens. So we had no money to eat. So it was like, we're living very close to Lygon Street in Carlton, and we're like, we couldn't afford to eat the food there. So we were like living off these microwave dinners and things, and, um, for, you know, 6 months. And then, you know, in the middle of winter, they pulled out the bathroom on the side that we live in, so we had to go outside middle of the night to go to the bathroom next door. And it was just like You know, everything that you learn about when you're living in your renovation to save money. And that all worked out. Really fortunate, 9 months later they revalued my property and I did a lot of effort in putting together a valuation document for the valuer. So I created the scene with styling, I made sure that I had comparable sales that were recent and comparable that were well over what I wanted. I had rental estimates and then did like, well, this is the yield in the area. So this means this property's worth, you know, over $700,000. So I'd bought it for $425,000, spent $50,000, and 9 months later it was valued at $700,000. So I went from a 95% LVR to an 80% LVR, which was probably a big mistake. I should've just kept it low. Took the money out and went to Sydney. And Todd's property was valued at, um, mine was valued, his was valued at $750,000 because he had the, the, um, the garage as well. And he took money out and we went to Sydney, got, um, moved, renovation, doing it all ourselves, getting up at 6 AM, painting to 8 every morning, going to work, getting home at 6, painting to 10 every night, painting 15 to 20 hours every weekend, and we did that for 3 months on my side. And then, um, the company I worked with said, we're moving you to Sydney, and we had like literally 2 months or a month to do Todd's side. And so we hired a painter, and for $5,000 in a week, he did the entire 3-story house next door. I'm like, how did I— why did I waste 3 months of my life painting? We never did that again, Rob.

No, lessons learnt. So that was deal number 1. So I guess from $425,000 to $700,000 on your side and from $450,000 to $750,000 on Todd's side in 9 months. So that's a— and put $50,000 in and pulled $150,000 out. So that's not a bad return for deal number 1, Jane Slack-Smith. So yay to you.

And you know what, that $45,000 I put in, that was the last time I ever put any of my own cash into a property.

There you go.

It was all done with equity.

There you go. And so that started your investment career. And I know that you did a number of those in quick succession straight away, and then that's kind of set you on that property journey. So I think from memory you did 4 or 5 in the first 4 or 5 years or something like that.

So Yeah, we did another 6. So we have 7 properties and we, no, we bought 7 properties and one of them we sold about 5 years ago, which broke my heart. So buy and hold was always philosophy, but it was a beachfront unit at Bondi and it was, you know, had concrete cancer and it was like you had to put in $100 grand and there was $200 grand and you had to put in $300 grand. Jane Slack-Smith, I think we should sell. So we sold with full disclosure saying there's going to be a huge amount of money you have to pay. And we didn't want like some little first home buyer buying it and getting themselves into trouble. So we made sure there was full disclosure and a developer bought it knowing full well what was up. And 5 years later they've just started the work. So, you know, we only sold regrettably when we had to, I was going to retire there, find somewhere else to retire to. But yeah, so So we bought very quickly and then I started teaching my friends and family how to buy. And I was just like, guys, you did like, we can, we can like formalize this. This is like, just do this. And then I had friends in Colorado, in Denver, and they started doing it and they, they would say they do like 12, but they, they were doing, you know, taking the strategy and doing it so much more to it. And then And then so we got to the stage where I was like, I need more friends and family. Like, people should know about this. I've now got myself set up. I've got my parents, you know, they're looked after. Like, people should know this. My friends and family, you know, created multimillion-dollar property portfolios that have given them, you know, some have had very significant health issues. And I spoke to one of them, one of those friends on Friday, and we're just talking about where she is at the moment. And she said, she said it all came— it's gonna make me cry. She said it all came down to making the choice of just having the right property. So she built a portfolio that allowed her to not work again and deal with the health consequence that she had. And, and fantastically, she's doing really, really well. But, you know, it's just that that freedom that having financial security gives you. And I wanted everyone to have it. And that's why I started the mortgage business in 2005. I'm like, I need new friends. How am I going to find new people to teach this stuff to so they're not being told to run to the back of the room?

Yeah, absolutely. And so that mortgage business we touched on during the intro, you've actually won 2 Mortgage Broker of the Years with that. So very proud of you on that. So I'm trying to think when the last time was you won it.

I stopped entering because I was like, this is getting a little embarrassing, right? And then I really refocused in 2012 into my education business because I was like, I know finance is the leverage and the vehicle that allows people to do things, but they need to know where they're buying. And it just frustrated me that a lot of my mortgage clients were getting them the finance and I was trying to give them a little bit of direction, but they were just missing the mark and not buying, you know, well, in my opinion. And so that's when I thought I need to do education. And I'd always, I kind of always had the answers. I'm like, boy, if all these people made mistakes, I want to jump over the mistakes. So I want to learn the mistakes. And de-risk it. If I'm gonna say start a mortgage broking business, then I'm gonna get a mentor who's done it before who will teach me. But I'm also, and what I did is I created 30 questions. I found the top 30 brokers in Australia and I kind of got, said, look, I'm thinking about becoming a broker. And I asked them questions like everything from where do you get your clients? Who's your aggregator? Do you pay for leads? To what's the one piece of technology you could not live without? What would you tell yours self, you're, you know, starting out something that you shouldn't do. And so I had these KPIs for my mortgage business before I started, and then I spent 3 months like a good engineer writing the procedures. I wrote the procedures for my PA, um, for her daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly tasks 6 years before I employed her. So I, I definitely just went, okay, if I can put procedures in place, and the business is, um, then just fully focused on the person, their story, their goals, and where they want to go. We can focus on that, and the procedures and the process will look after themselves. So that's how I developed, um, the, the mortgage business. And, you know, it's interesting, I had, um, this guy Ross popped up in my, in my diary on Wednesday And I thought, God, I haven't talked to Ross for like 10 years. He'd be almost 70. Like, I don't know why he's in my diary. And, you know, God bless him. I was like, what's going on? He's like, I just had to tell you. I was like, yeah, what's happening? He said, we went and saw our financial planner and he said, you're good, Ross. You and Bron are good. He said, we're 67 and we're good. And that's because of the properties that we bought. When you started talking to us like 10, 12 years ago. I'm like, good, you know, and that's, that's what I want people, just everyday people to be able to be good and have, have that point in their life when they go, hm, it's okay.

It's very rewarding making a difference in someone else's life. Very, very rewarding. So, so that's the, I guess, your mortgage business and your property success side of things. And you still do have a select number of people that you do mentor. I don't believe that you do it at the scale that you used to before. It's a little bit more personalized now.

It's never been to scale. So I've always with the Ultimate Guide to Renovation Location Masterclass, try to create the kind of do-it-yourself, affordable do-it-yourself, just get it right, follow the bouncing ball kind of structure. And I've got the club where I do like a monthly Q&A that I've run monthly for the last 9 years that a lot of people when they join it, actually go and listen to all of the other recordings because nothing really changes. My whole narrative is the same, you know, of just the fundamentals of good property investing. And I guess I got to the stage where about 4 years ago, my mentor— so as I said, you know, I always had a mentor, the mentor for the mortgage broking when I couldn't find someone who I felt was authentic with integrity selling how to buy adult education. I went to the States and found a great mentor and flew backwards and forwards for a year to learn how to put together adult education in the right way and how to promote it and position it. And then I got to the point where I was like, a lot of people, I'm getting them a mortgage, they're buying the courses, and they're just not pulling the trigger. Or if they do, they buy the wrong thing. And I'm just like, I was just getting really frustrated that I couldn't manhandle people to success. And my mentor, who was my business coach at that stage, said, you need to do mentoring. I'm like, who? Really? No, I don't think anyone would want to mentor with me. It's like, have people asked you if they can have one-on-one mentoring with you? I'm like, well, yeah. He said, well, they're the people who probably want it. I'm like, oh yeah. Jane Slack-Smith, good point. I was like, well, I'm not doing more than 10 people. I will never do more than 10 people, maybe 15 if I've got like, I'm like, and I'll give them a year and I'll give them everything I've got. And if I can like teach them everything then and just manhandle them to success, that's fantastic. And then I realized that whilst I was doing the mentoring, especially in the beginning of 2020, there was a lot of people in the mentoring that I was manhandling through it. There was always something that was, you know, some of them had difficulties with career decisions and some had difficulties with their next why. And I'm not interested in working with people who want a Ferrari. I want to work with people who are doing this for their family or legacy or creating a way that they can help, you know, social responsibility. Housing projects or podcasts, you know, burnt-out doctors or whatever. I want the bigger picture. And I've done podcasts and I've done digital marketing and I've done all these things. I'm like, if I'm your mentor, you get everything. And so I kind of like brought that to the table. So, you know, I might be doing a session with someone on why they, why they don't think they deserve success. And I was like, this is all about mindset. And so I started mindset coaches who could do this. And I scored a few of them on courses. And whilst they were getting all these revelations, I was like, this is actually meaning a lot for me too. And so I thought, I want to know more about this. So then I got the person who did the courses as my one-on-one mentor. I'm like, let's just hack this. I want to hack this so I can help people get over themselves to success. And with the mentoring, that's what I do. I'm like fully immersed in people's lives, in their vision of what they're trying to create long-term and course correcting them continually. And that's where I spend most of my days and I just love it.

So thank you, Jane Slack-Smith. That has been very inspirational in trying to share your story. Let's give some lessons learned to our viewers. Let's start with where you just finished, which is limiting beliefs and mindset. What are the lessons that you've learned out of that?

We make it all up. We tell ourselves lies, our brain or our ego or whatever it is. Okay, so here's an interesting thing. Scientifically proven that we get 4 billion pieces of information at us every second, but we have the capacity mentally to only process 2,000 bits of information. So how— what's the default or the easy filter or the energy saver for our brain for us to get which pieces of information we get? And it's from our past experiences, our past thoughts and feelings, and our past conditions that we put on ourselves. So we're always just reliving the experiences or the new opportunities through our past stories. And a lot of people have past stories about, I'm not enough, I'm not worthy, only rich people, you know, are bad people. And, you know, my parents never had money, therefore I shouldn't have money. And if I get money, my friends won't like me. Everyone's got these stories. And so when we're listening to things, they're filtering through that. So when I'm thinking about limiting beliefs, I'm always, always trying to work with the people that I try to serve. In understanding what theirs might be and then squashing it. So we tell ourselves lives based on our experiences in the past, which we kind of made up. I'm like, well, why don't we make up the future that we want and understand where we are now, create a tension between them so that we just move towards the vision of what we want. And so I'm very much on understanding where people want to be, creating a vision, kind of visualization of what that life looks like. Understanding where we are now and creating the next steps to get there and being very mindful, not the secret, you think it will happen, being mindful of the next step to achieve those goals. So limiting beliefs, I think, is probably the number one thing that I've seen that has derailed most property investors in successful investments. I think my next book is going to be Renovate Yourself, Renovate Your Wealth.

Very good. So I equally study similar things and I probably go to a little bit nerdier level. I look at the neuroscience that sits behind all of that. So the filter that you were talking about is called the reticular activating system, and its sole purpose in life is to allow us to digest food, to be able to move your hands, and do all of the things that we do without having to think. So it keeps things away from our conscious mind, uh, and it makes decisions on our behalf based on the filter that we have actually given it. So when we say these negative limiting beliefs, that reticular activating system then starts to believe that to be the truth. And so it doesn't bring the decision to our conscious mind. So what we have to do is we need to retrain our brain. We need to start telling it, hey, I want to, I want to see those decisions so I can actually respond to them rather than react to them. And so when we start to work on our limiting beliefs, that's what we're doing. We're bringing those subconscious decisions to the conscious mind, making decisions, and then we're pushing it back down to re-filter based on the positive beliefs that we really want.

Exactly. And look, I make all my mentoring students read The Magician's Way by my now mentor, William Whitecloud, and go to his free Create Your Destiny course. Because I think if you can call it out and be observant and be the observer of when these limiting beliefs come up and go, ah, there you are. You're just here to protect me. Thanks a lot. I don't need you now. And then this is what I really want. You know, having that kind of conversation, it sounds a bit woo woo, but scientific base of quantum physics and, you know, NLP and all of the things that we learn from the science mind. I need to get over the science first before I could get to, hmm, if you believe it, you can achieve it kind of stuff. But I just see it just manifests so amazingly in people's lives. It's, yeah, it is a game changer.

Absolutely. Now, other lessons learned, you mentor yourself, but you mentioned several times that you have mentors and coaches yourself. So what are your lessons in and around, I guess, having a coach and/or a mentor?

Look, I think the thing around a coach is kind of someone who may not have done it themselves, but understand the fundamental structure around, you know, what you want to achieve and creating a game plan. To achieve that. So, you know, there's a differentiation between coaches and mentors. Mentors are people who have done it. They're like, you know what, you're gonna have to course correct now, or, you know, what's, you know, keep you accountable. What's going on with you? And understand what the roadblocks or issues could be before they even see them. And so for me, having a mentor for all of my businesses and everything that I've bought, I've now been paying for mentors for, you know, what, over 30 years almost. And everything from, you know, $60,000 a year to, you know, $2,000 for a phone call to get, you know, an aha breakthrough that will, you know, 10x that investment for me. You know, I'm all around shortcutting the problems and getting the right person on my team so I can understand and do more and contribute more so I can you know, help and serve more people in a more efficient way.

Absolutely. And I love the distinction that you had where you pulled apart a coach and a mentor. I like to think of the coach very much in that mindset space. The coach is the person that will activate you and get you to take action. And then the mentor is the person who makes sure that it's the right action.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Nailed it. Yeah. I guess clearly you've got lessons learned in your, I guess, your strategy, which is the long-term buy and hold. So your Trident strategy. So what are your 3 rules in your Trident?

Trident strategy is know the market and buy below the market if you can. So that might just be negotiation strategies. It might be comparable sales, understanding negotiation points. You know, I've had in the last month, so this is like early, you know, 2022, market's booming. Everyone's going mad. I've had 3 3 of my clients purchase in very fast-moving markets with a lower, lower price than the offer on the table. And that's because of the terms and conditions. So I know that it is possible, but it would be the one thing that I would possibly give up on in a fast-moving market. If I found a property that had step 2, you know, just in case you get it wrong, plan B, which is the renovation, creating equity. So having that pricing disparity, which means is understanding the difference between renovated and unrenovated properties. And I feel so strongly about this. I went and knocked on John Edwards' door at Residex and went, "You don't know me, but I buy your reports." If you've got all this information in Australia about all the properties and what they're selling for, and we understand the fundamental, if you spend 10% on a cosmetic renovation, you need to have 40% uplift to cover all these costs, blah, blah, blah. Can you come up with a report? He's like, hmm, okay. And hence the renovation report was created. Unfortunately, when CoreLogic bought Residex, they killed the report. But, you know, it was just like, there has to be a way to find the information. I was always after the information. So that pricing disparity, renovating straight away, push up the value of your property, pull out equity, increase the rent, get better tenure of the tenants that you have there because they want to stay in a property worth just a bit better than everything else around them. And then, you know, the holy grail is capital growth. Being in an area that has pricing pressure, where people want to live, where the dynamics are that are going to have sustained growth in that area. And, you know, I know that we need cash flow to hold our portfolio, but we also need growth to actually exit it at some stage and have that aha moment, you know, and be able to follow your dreams and do what you want which might still include working 2 to 3 days a week or following a passion program, project, or having a side hustle or spending more time with the kids or grandkids. But it's around understanding that you need a bit of both. And, you know, we're in a great environment at the moment where there is so much opportunity. And I could grab everyone and give them a shake and go, you can do it. It's okay. You know, the Trident Strategies worked well for me, worked for, you know, obviously obviously for thousands and thousands of students. And I just, I feel that, you know, buying the right property in the right area for, and understanding who you're buying it for are just fundamentals of getting it right.

And what about, I guess, being connected to your why? What guidance can you give people in firstly, what is a why and why should you be connected to your why?

Yeah, it's funny, you know, there's all these TED Talks on 'Find your why,' and they sound a bit, uh, but at the end of the day, if you don't know why you're doing something, then getting up and going to work and being on the grindstone and, and just doing the same thing every day because you've got this elusive goal that at 65 you get to retire— it's like the, the, the biggest unspoken kind of lie that we're told. If you work 40 hours a day for 40 years 40 hours a week for 40 years and retire on 40% of what you earn, it's okay. And it's not okay. And so for me, you know, a why is the connection of, you know, why do you might take a few sacrifices and not having a family holiday every year so that you can have an investment property, you know, that, or when you get a call out in the middle of the night to say, yeah, there's flooding at your house, what are we going to do? That you go, okay, this is all right. You know, this is just a moment in time. My greater why is that, you know, this is going to give me the financial freedom to be able to do what I want, when I want, with whom I want, which is, I think, you know, the greatest gift any of us can have.

Yeah. And lucky last, what one piece of guidance would you like to give out in any category, anywhere, anyhow? What would you like to tell our viewers out there to inspire them to do stuff?

I think you just need to take the first step and believe in yourself that, you know, you have some of the information now. All the information that you need is out there somewhere. Find yourself a great mentor who resonates with, you know, your strategy and what you want to do. Hack your way to success by jumping over the mistakes that others make. And, you know, you don't have to do it alone. And I, and I think I think, you know, for most people out there, they think they don't have the capacity or capability, and all they need is the confidence. And that comes with competence. And if you can actually just, you know, find the right guide to take your hand and show you the way, you know, you can do anything. And that's not just in property, that's in life.

Absolutely. And with that, Jane, thank you very much for sharing all of your story. We have run way over time and I'm looking at all of the notes that have been whizzing past with our audience looking and we must have bamboozled them because there's lots of lovely comments about how fantastic you and your story is but there's no actual questions which means— I know, phew, saved by the bell. So with that, given that we are way, way over and I'm holding you up from your dinner, I want to thank you very much for your time, Jane, and I cannot wait to catch up again with you in person next time I'm in Melbourne. For anyone who wants to catch up with Jane, you can click on the links below, and I guess, yeah, and that's how you get hold of her. So you were going to say one parting gesture, Jane?

Yeah, I was just going to say, look, you know, I'm a consummate consumer of information and learning from people who have been in the business and are out there. And, you know, I can't wait to attend your event next Saturday because, you know, the thoughts and the things that you bring to the market— I've just, as you know, I've just always been a fan. And I think, you know, the integrity of the research around the Property Development Network is just so fundamentally aligned to, you know, how I do research and teach as well. And I think, you know, that's Foundation is the key to everything.

Thank you, Jane, that's greatly appreciated. For those of you who don't know, I wasn't going to do a pitch, but what Jane's referring to is a half-day event we've got next Saturday called Developer Launchpad. So go, go to our website developernetwork.com.au and you will find that under the events page. So Jane, it has been an absolute pleasure. I want to thank you very much for your time and we'll say goodbye to our viewers. Uh, and I'll see you in two secs.