Human + AI: Designing Experiences That Actually Change Behavior -Howard Rose x Jason Jerald

Well, so much is burning, right? I mean, I think we have the intersection of a very unstable political system, global problems, which everyone knows about, and then AI is contributing to a lot of angst all over the landscape in terms of young people and how they're going to enter into the workforce and how companies can integrate AI into their pipeline and what are people going to buy? So I think we've seen a massive disruption in lots of areas of society that are driven by technology.

Yeah, certainly is interesting times. There's always new something coming up every hour. And I like what you said about disruption, right? Disruption is where novelty occurs. It's not just the same thing over and over. So one way to look about it, at it is, yeah, how can we have that impact in the world? And given that our audience is primarily, you know, on the tech side, specifically on the business side of emerging technologies, what do you think they should get out of this podcast as we— what would you like them to get out of this podcast as we continue talking?

Well, the perspective I want to share is I came from the virtual reality world and I'm interested in how technology-mediated experiences can transform people. And that's in terms of health or knowledge or education, lots of different goals. And I'm really interested in how technology can not just inform people, but motivate change. And so one of the things that, you know, I've seen with immersive VR and those kinds of experiences is they can be extremely transformative. And I brought that kind of perspective into this new venture that I've launched called Frontier Realms, where we're trying to use AI to apply kind of a storytelling approach that I developed out of virtual reality. So I think the key takeaway that I'd love people to have is that there are really positive uses of AI that integrate with humans. And I think that AI needs to be in service of humans and not sort of replace us. So I can talk about that, and I hope that people get a sense of what what we're doing, but also that there's some hope out there that humans have a really key role in the future.

Yeah. Whether it's virtual reality or it's AI characters and social media and such, it's sort of like we get to make it all up, right? We get to do these crazy things and you sort of can do anything, but just because you can do anything doesn't mean you should do everything. And so what are your thoughts of how you decide what form of experience or characters that you create, right? What is sort of, what in your opinion is what should drive these decisions?

Yeah, so what we're doing is we're creating narratives with virtual characters that also integrate humans into the storytelling. And our goals are to motivate people to, for example, take better care of their health or to motivate them to do certain things, to adopt certain habits or to take care of the environment or whatever it is. So I think when we tell stories, it's really about emotion. That what we know from psychology is that we make decisions based on emotional Preferences, and then we justify them with rational facts that we apply selectively. So I think the appeal, people say knowledge is necessary but not sufficient for change, and I think the appeal needs to be emotional. And that's what we're really focused on is our mechanism of action is to use emotion as a driver and that engages people with science-based content. So when we do that, we create kind of a map of what the realm is. We're called Frontier Realms. And in that sense, we're trying to map out the whole information space and the landscape of the audience and what their motivations are. And of course, So we do this as a campaign for an organization, a nonprofit, and I can share some of that work with women's health. But we're interested in helping lots of organizations reach lots of different audiences, and AI enables us to scale that whole effort in a way that otherwise we couldn't do.

So before getting into that, I guess I'd like to understand better the motivations in what you're creating and what you said about emotionally hooking people. That's how people make decisions. It seems like there's pros and cons of that, right? One is that there's so much clickbait out there that gets your emotions going, gets your curiosity going, that gets you blindly clicking on things. that maybe actually isn't trying, you know, adding value, but it gets the, you know, gets the clicks. So what are your thoughts? I know, because I know what you're doing is based on science and trying to get, you know, the truth out there. How do you think about that, balancing that of, you know, where can we just get the clicks versus where can we, you know, actually help these people?

Yeah, well, that's a really difficult challenge because I think people's attention is The currency that we have is our attention, right? How much attention do we pay to a TV show? How much attention do we pay to everything? It's almost time is money, but attention is really money. So if you look at people's media consumption, first of all, people are spending a lot more time on social media than they are on sort of long feature films or long format stuff. So people will watch 10 years of Games of Thrones or they'll scroll their Instagram feed. The kind of interaction and sort of engagement we're looking for is to take up some of that scrolling time and direct it towards things that are positive. But you have to have a hook. You're competing against a lot of noise. So we, we have, we have approaches to do that. You know, we have a character, her name is Maya, and I can share some of that. And we have some video that I hope you'll share with the audience. But Maya, as a character, her goal is to forward women's health and to represent kind of every woman. And her— the topic is menopause. And so her story is she's 50 and She's going through perimenopause and we're not trying to pretend she has a uterus, but she can embody any perspective. She can embody any social class or embody different kinds of perspectives in terms of she has a consistent personality, Yeah. But she can be, she can know a lot. She can be vulnerable. There's a lot of ways that we can use AI to do things that people can't. So vulnerability is one dimension that she can travel through time and space and be as realistic or as fantastic as we want her to be. She's a pretty realistic, likable character. So, character generation and trying to create a character that people like, that people want to meet. I talk to people all the time and they're like, I'd like to meet her. Well, you know, through AI, we can do things like have you talk to her, but she's not a chatbot.

Yeah.

So, I think the one thing I would just add to that, is that what we're trying to do is we're trying to create narratives. So my analogy is imagine if all the X-Men cared about was your health. So you have characters that you know and you follow the story and you kind of understand the underlying dimensions of their world and their realm. But the idea is that you engage with that. And then what we do is we bring in the voices, the actual voices of real doctors, Experts in women's health who can present the the the the medical information in a credible and identifiable way. So their MDs, what they say and what they you know is reliable in a way that AI on its own is not. So I think that's really just as a care you know a takeaway. I think there are ways that we can engineer the interactions that we have with AI and the way that it's presented. So it's not just 100% AI, and that adds credibility. So we use AI to give the hook, to make the story, to make it sticky, but then we do a lot to bring in facts because that's what we—

That's a good point. So that's one of the things I sort of always said about VR, right, is use it where appropriate and don't use it where it's not appropriate. And it's no different with any other technology, right? Use AI where it's appropriate and use, you know, let's be humans where that's more appropriate. So—

Well, we have to know what's appropriate. And I think that there's a lot of misinformation out there and there's a lot of confusion and there's a lot of perspectives and there's a lot of rejection of science. And You know, so, but the science still exists. You can believe what you want about a vaccine, but herd immunity still exists. And we as a society need to negotiate that, right?

Yep.

Well, let's, at this point, we'll introduce our viewers to Maya and go ahead and play that video.

What matters? I'm Maya. Born of AI from collective stories of thousands of women navigating perimenopause and menopause, I'm here to hold all those thoughts, experiences, and questions in one place. I'm ready to fight for women's health and especially shine a light on menopause where so much goes unseen. I use my voice to speak up. My story is: I'm 50, in the midst of perimenopause and menopause. It's chaos, Messy, confusing, sometimes overwhelming. I do my research, but sometimes it leaves me with even more questions. Luckily, I've got an incredible team of real experts in my corner, experts we can turn to and trust.

So what I found most interesting when I first saw that video is I was like, is that AI? And she literally says at the beginning, she's AI and I still like ask if it's AI, even though she just said it. And Howard, you had mentioned when I asked that question, everyone asked that question, even though she explicitly says it. And so, yeah, it just seemed so realistic to me. It's, you know, it makes you question, even though she said AI, or, you know, are you sure that was AI?

Yeah. Well, I recently showed that to somebody and they were watching and halfway through they said, I just forgot she's AI.

Yeah.

And so I think we watch TV shows all the— or whatever, movies. We watch media all the time that we know they're not real. So clearly that as a component is okay with humans. I think that when you dream up a character, they can be as realistic and anthropomorphic as we want, or they can be very, very abstract. Maya, because it's about health and because of the content, we focused on her. We thought a lot about her ethnicity. She's kind of Blasian, a combination of Black, Latino, Asian. We wanted her to be ethnically amorphous and appeal to a lot of different groups. So I think it's also, so there's the nature of who she is and how we present it. But that question, you know, she says, I'm not real. That's the first line. And we, you know, we, we thought a lot about how do we present an AI character and make her likable and not feel like it's a bait and switch or a lie. But I feel really good that people, you know, we're upfront, we're like, I'm AI, and yet still people feel that emotional connection.

Drawn in.

And so I think that that's the art of it. That's kind of the fun of bringing this whole thing together. And then, you know, the other thing is that we want her to be, if you look at that video, she kind of takes a lot of different perspectives. She's on the Golden Gate Bridge and then she ends up at a farm. And that really is an embodiment of how Maya can move through different spaces and social class and knowledge and all of that. But she has a very strong perspective. And I love the— I personally love the end where she says, you know, what if we weren't just fixing what's broken, but we were celebrating what's possible? And that's the spirit that we want to bring.

You know, you got me thinking, as you said, it's no different than, you know, watching a movie, right? I mean, these characters and, you know, just because they're human actors or AI actors, it really doesn't matter. You consider those, you know, those actors are playing a role that's different than who they actually are, right? They're, you know, conveying emotionally someone that's very different than who they truly are. So it's not really any different. I mean, the underlying technology is different, but The technology is transparent, then it doesn't really matter if they're human or if they're AI.

People get super attached to Bluey. I mean, The Simpsons, like it doesn't have to be realistic. It's the story, it's the character, it's the voice. It's, we find something in there that we love and that resonates. And so I think people, what's really interesting to me is we did a One of our doctors did a presentation to a whole group of physicians and then asked them what they thought. And the outcome was that more than half of them were excited to share it with their patients, and very, very few of them found that it was disturbing or Unsettling that it was using AI in this way.

Yeah. We've found similar, you know, people saying similar things. And I know we've also talked about in therapy that if someone believes who they're talking to is actually an AI versus a human, they actually open up more. And that gets into interesting thoughts of, well, you think the AI is real and not human, or maybe in the back of your mind, you know, it's AI, but you feel that it's human. And so it sort of brings up new questions, not if you, you know, if you think it's AI versus if you think it's human, regardless if it's actually AI or human. How do you see that playing of people not being sure if it's AI or not, how they might open up?

Well, you know, I think, you know, in the VR world, we've, I've done work with PTSD and graded exposure and working with battlefield PTSD and vets. And in that realm, a lot of the findings are that people are much more willing to engage with an avatar or they're willing to engage with a simulation because they feel like they have anonymity. What we know about technology, you don't have as much anonymity as you want, but still people People engage, and I think that's the suspension of disbelief. So if you are sitting there worried about the uncanny valley, then, you know, and looking at Maya, for example, and going, wow, that's really creepy and weird, that—

And maybe back up here for any of our listeners that aren't familiar with the uncanny valley, maybe explain that. Sure.

Well, the uncanny valley is a, is a, an idea that's come from robotics and it's been around a long time. And the idea is that it's kind of a, you hit a trough. So if you're trying to make something anthropomorphic and accessible and likable, that it's a lot of work. And then you hit a point, an inflection point where it gets good enough, but then it's not really good enough.

I think the technical term is creepy.

Yeah, it's creepy. We can think of a million ones. The one that comes to mind is Bob the Paperclip, which just gets annoying. So there's a lot of things that approach, you know, sort of human interaction, but if it's not good enough, then there's the trough. And the uncanny valley is that trough of trying to get to the other side where people actually accept it. And the amazing thing about AI, there's a lot of really bad AI out there. There's a lot of really kind of to build. My partner Marco Post is an excellent computer graphics guy. He recently won an Emmy and he's just got a very keen sense of both how to edit and how to generate and have consistency across the The whole thing. So the tools will do what they do. The tools will get better. The consistency will be easier, but all of that enables us to scale. And really the underlying thing of the value that we bring is how to create a message that is going to resonate, how to create a character, how to create a realm, how to turn that into a campaign that advances an organization's mission and their internal KPIs, their internal development. So that's what we're trying to do. We're not just trying to throw us, we're not just yelling into the black hole. We're trying to actually advance the organizations that we work with.

And what are you seeing as the most important KPIs specifically with what you're doing?

Yeah, so Maya, we're working with Her Medicine, which is a nonprofit, a women's health nonprofit, and They're interested in things like cardiac and breast cancer and other things that are all around aging and menopause. So for their organization, their external KPIs are to advance women's health, to advance research, to see more research in that area, to raise awareness about good sources of information and help women connect to clinic clinicians who have experience. Their internal KPIs are things like they want to be thought leaders and they want to advance their organization. They want more physicians to be inside of— they have a clinician directory. And there's a real problem when— so the underlying problem with menopause, there's a lot of information about it and it's getting a lot of attention, but there's a lot of There's a lot of noise in terms of there's been some really controversial studies that have been kind of found to be not very accurate. One's called the Women's Health Initiative. The other thing is that there's a lot of information about supplements and you shouldn't do that, you should do this, you should take this. And then there's a lot of misinformation about all sorts of aspects of it. There's a lot of really good stuff too. There's a lot of real good attention to social networks and getting women connected and social media that's happening. There's a thing called the I Don't Care Club and there's 2 million women who follow that. So there's a lot of great stuff. There's a lot of, you know, there's things at the Cleveland Clinic or at Mayo Clinic or wherever there's the clinical stuff. But there's— what we try to do is to bring all of that kind of content together and not be the conduit. We're not trying to give them all the information. We're trying to grab their attention, say, this is what's important. It's curated information. They get it from a reliable source, and then we send them out. So it's really about activation and directing people to things that will really help them and not just waste their time.

Yeah, we sort of all have access to all this crazy amount of information, but knowing what is the important information and yeah, what we should be focusing on, that seems important.

And the other thing that social media allows you, so our approach is to create these stories, these narratives, and send them out over Instagram and TikTok and things like that. And what you get is sustained engagement. So each vignette is, you know, a post can be an image or it can be a carousel or something, or it can be, you know, a 1-minute video or something like that. But it comes into their feed. And so if you think about the user experience, it's that, you know, they're scrolling, they're getting stuff, and then this is hopefully eye-catching enough. We build hooks into it and Try to make it engaging in the way that it will stand out in the onslaught of people trying to grab your attention. And then it appears and then you start to know it. You have to see it a whole bunch of times before you start to know it.

Right.

So that's, you know, you grab the audience, you build the audience. And then the other thing that we do is we have automated interactions over social media text where Maya can interact with people. She can spontaneously find people, comment on their stuff. So it's kind of much more of a 360 approach. I think a lot of technologies like virtual reality, one of the things I've done it for been in that thing for decades, but, and it is super powerful. It's great for a focused experience. A lot of my work was in pain relief and the outcomes are great, but you kind of go to VR Island, right? You put on the headset and you're there and you're transported and it can be extremely powerful, but then you take it off and it's not connected to anything in your life. And so, We've, I've kind of been gravitating towards this other approach where we can, they don't have to buy any hardware. It's just coming through their feed and then it can be, it can have a lot of touch and be connected into their world and much more fundamental.

I love that term, VR Island. I'm going to borrow that and of course reference you on that. That's a great way of putting it.

Own VR Island. Yeah.

Have you thought of, so Maya being sort of the, your primary focus with this technology, I'm sure you've thought about how it might apply to other use cases. What are some other use cases that you think could be a really good fit with what you're doing? Maybe specifically, you know, versus nonprofits, what are thoughts given that You know, this podcast is more on the business side of these technologies, for-profits. Do you have any thoughts of how it would be for a company, a for-profit company versus a nonprofit?

Yeah, we have, you know, Maya was our first, is our first character and we've got some other things that are blooming in the pipeline. But yeah, so, you know, basically I think art, our primary interest is to help organizations that have a message that has some sort of scientific or health or environmental or other component to it. I think there's a lot of people out there that are just doing pure branding, trying to sell whiskey or bikinis or whatever it is. But we are really focused on companies that are in technology, in the space sector, That are in health, that are in wellness. I mean, there's so many other areas, environmental kind of sustainability, or it can be a nonprofit, it can be a for-profit. That isn't the deciding factor. I think that the challenge of AI So AI has a couple kind of characteristics, and one is that it sort of generalizes. So it anchors on certain things in the tokenization process, and then you can get some pretty amazing output, but also it kind of takes the— if you just kind of get onto an LLM and you put a prompt in, you're not sure what you're going to get out, number one, but also It kind of removes a lot of detail. So what it does is it goes out and finds its knowledge base and it anchors on certain things and it brings back information. So what you get may be good or it may be bad. So if you're relying on people going out and, for example, finding their health information, some of it may be good, some of it may be bad. It also requires that people, A, take the effort to do it, and B, that they They know how to sort good and bad. So I think for organizations, for companies that have a message that is nuanced, that this kind of approach can both be proactive. We can get people, we can do pull and push, and we can get them involved. We can get people engaged, they follow it, and then we can send them into different directions.

Yeah.

It's not restricted to anything. I mean, we're talking to museums, we're talking to events where if you have an event that you, you know, you want to get people in the door and then you can have these characters and you can have these, the realm as part of the production if you want. And then the real, the real value is in follow-on because I think a lot of events, Conferences, everything. They have these big conferences. People spend a lot of money. They go, and then the follow-on is pretty lame. They go home and nothing.

Yeah.

So, if you use story and character and narrative that is tightly linked to your core messages and your KPIs and what you want your audience to take away, then you can amplify your effect. Perpetually. Because my—

Yeah. So what are some examples? I like what you said about, you know, follow-up, because we all go to these, you know, whatever it is, an accelerator, a conference, whatever. You get all pumped up, then you go home and you get on with your normal life. And so what are some examples here where you could see, like, example to make it more concrete of how to keep people engaged after an event?

Yeah. So say you are running a program about sustainability, you're running a conference, you're running some sort of, you have a movie, you have something. How do you get people in there? So you can have a character, you can build a realm about the underlying kinds of information and the landscape that you're trying to convey. So maybe we're talking about, I don't know, talking about nutrition or solar energy or nutrition, growing stuff, food, or whatever it is, then you can build a realm that's not just about the science of the biosphere or whatever the landscape that you're trying to make, but you can You can broaden it out to the kind of behaviors that you're trying to target. So you build kind of a map of that realm, and then you build some characters that can inhabit that space. So one might be a farmer, one might be a miner, one might be something else, one might be completely abstract. That is the voice of future generations. So you can create this realm. The characters are kind of playing out that story. And they're pointing towards your event. So you're getting people engaged in the core ideas, you're priming them, and then they go to this event and then you can have them on stage, you know, on a video, on this, on that. And then once they're engaged and they're following on social media, then you can carry that on. So that ties to your external KPIs and your internal KPIs. But you build the bridge from one side to the other. You can't just kind of jump in at the end and expect to have a big impact. So if you're very kind of measured and intentional about it, you can carry that through and really amplify the kind of, you know, you can build a community around it. You can amplify your message. You can send people where they are, but they're already bought into your message, right?

Yeah. It's sustaining that engagement. Yeah. Versus just being a one-time thing.

Yeah. And that continuity, again, attention is our currency. And so what you're talking about, we all have it. We go, we get excited, but then you go home, you got the kids, you got to You got work, you've got this meeting, you got that, and it drops in priority. So what is the appropriate way to deal with that? Right? So what would you want as an organization? You don't want to bother people all the time and keep sending them emails. You can do that, but people—

Seems to be the standard thing to do.

Yeah. I mean, how many conferences do we go to? I can't handle email from All of them, right? So, but when they're, when it comes through my stream, I'm bought in and you do that judiciously. So you're not bombarding people with messages, but you, but you do it in a way that you can make sure that they see it and they recognize it and the characters become recognizable and the characters are engaging. People want to engage with the story, right? That's the—

Someone they already know versus another Yeah, another clickbait that may get them, but they don't have a relationship with that character.

But going back to the core motivation is emotional. Like the appeal that's going to sustain is that emotional connection to the story, to the context, to the feeling that I'm making a difference. And I want that feeling when I interact with somebody. I want to feel like it's benefiting me, but also that I'm making a difference and an impact. And so that it's really, I think a lot of people think about information. So my background's in educational technology. That's what I got my degree in, in grad school. And information is necessary but not sufficient to get anybody to do anything. Like just telling you that you should exercise and eat right, that's not news, but it's not like it's a lack of information. It's we need the things in our lives to sustain that, sustain, to adopt habits and then sustain them.

Yeah, I would agree with that. I think, I mean, maybe I'm projecting because I know for myself when I accomplish a goal or something, I feel like I'm making a difference in some way, whether it's you know, a couple people or a lot of people. And I suspect that's true of everyone, right? Of why do you want to go get that advanced degree? Or why do you want to, you know, go up in your position at your company? It's because you want to be respected as if you're giving value out to the world in some way. And so I think even us tech people, that is true, right? We're driven by that emotional drive of how can we make that difference? And have that impact on the world.

Right. And one of my favorite quotes is, we are feeling machines that think, not thinking machines that feel. And humans, we believe we're rational and we believe that if that was true, the Kahneman-Tversky cognitive biases wouldn't be a thing. We believe we, you know, attribution bias and it's their fault, not mine. You know, so, so let's just embrace that. And I think we want to embrace it with integrity. We don't, we don't want to manipulate people, but that's the source of the problem with, with misinformation is that it's extremely, it's, you know, it speaks, people gravitate towards things that confirm their beliefs.

Yeah.

And so I feel suspect about vaccines. I don't feel— and we overgeneralize on a single person that we know or a single story. But, and those things, you know, there are side effects to drugs and we should go into that with our eyes open.

But absolutely.

But you know, it's like science. We've lost the trust in science. It's crazy where we are. So we need to regain that. And in my little way, I'm trying to bring science back into the light without, you know, the other thing is scientists are awesome. I have lots of scientists in my family, but they're terrible at telling stories. And so they do the most fascinating and interesting things, and some are very good at it, but most, Most are really down in the weeds. So kind of, we're science doctor whisperers, you know, we can help people turn that into some sort of creative, exciting message.

Okay.

Well, maybe you just answered this question, but about, you know, the theme of the show is impactful realities. And so maybe expand upon that, you know, in a succinct way for you, because you've all been talking about impact in general, but in a few words, what would you say impact, what does that mean to you?

Yeah. Well, I guess the impact I want to make in my life is to help people be smarter, Happier, healthier. And I think we all want to do that. I think no matter where we are on the political spectrum or our age or our demographic or what country we live in, people want that. They want to be happy and healthy. And I think that technology is often, it's either not equally distributed or it's not well thought out in terms of people's benefit. And so lousy user interfaces and terrible experiences and things that don't really match our sensory system. VR notably, I've seen a lot of terrible VR. I try to do my best But I think that the impact that I want to make is to find ways to bring this technology to people in a positive way. And what I think we've really done with Frontier Realms is to create this model that I think this angst, there's a widespread angst about the future of AI. And the future of humanity. And I don't want to feel— and I'm not getting grandiose about this, but I think what we have is this idea of we use AI at the core of what we do to generate content. It's all based on a very sophisticated knowledge base and a lot of kind of stuff under the hood, but what we're doing would be impossible without AI. It would just be cost prohibitive. It just couldn't work. And with AI, we can change the race and we can change the language and we can do all kinds of crazy fun stuff. But I think the impact is that we're not giving everything over to AI, that we're being very judicious about having humans generating the content, real experts saying, this is what's important. And we're not just going, hey AI, what's important? Because AI doesn't know and doesn't care, and it has no awareness of what we're doing. We've structured what we're doing in a way that we can use AI to do it.

Yeah.

But to put a point on it, I'm really interested, and I think the impact and the fate of humanity is how we find a way to have AI and humans working at our top performance or our top abilities. And so rather than just relegate or delegate all of the hard work to AI, we want to bring that voice and we use AI to scale it. We have physicians and people in it. So it's that match of humanity and AI to try to create a better future.

Yeah, we should be directing the AI to create that better future versus just having the AI direct us to who knows what.

Yeah. Well, I heard somebody say AI owns the path of least resistance, and I think that when we just give ourselves over to AI, we become consumers. And instead of producers, and I would love to see people be producers.

Yeah, I can definitely see that happening because yeah, you don't have to go to school for 5, 10 years to learn how to do something. You can more easily create now if we choose that path. So it's up to the individual.

The challenge there is that you need a lot of metacognitive skills to use a jargony term. You need the skill to be able to structure information To be able to structure a problem, to be able to understand what's right and what's wrong and when it gives you nonsense. So, uh, so I think problem solving and those kinds of skills are, are even more important with AI. Don't give it, don't give it everything, you know, trust it on everything. Keep the decisions yourself and, and be really selective about the kind of things it produces. Don't just take. Don't just accept garbage because it's kind of flashy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Think about it more deeply than just accepting whatever it is. Okay. Well, with that, if you liked what Howard was saying about having that impact in the world to help people be healthier and happier and more productive and such, then we would love if you can click that like button because we want to be able to get that message out to the world. And by doing that, you can help us. With that. And with that, Howard, I want to thank you for your time. Let us know, where can they learn more about Frontier Realms?

Frontier Realms. So we are frontierrealms.com. Maya, you can check out Maya at mayapaws.com, Maya Paws. And you can follow her on Instagram at mayapaws50. And yeah, more to come. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

Absolutely. And what if someone wants to reach out to you to get a conversation going about these services you offer?

Yeah, please go onto Frontier Realms and there's a place to put in a, you know, to send us a contact. That's probably the best way.

Excellent.

Great.

Okay. Well, thanks again, Howard.

Thank you. Take care.