Ep.108- Create a Life By Design with Jack Revell

Giving you empowering insights and guiding you to extraordinary outcomes. Learn from specialists in the worlds of integrative and natural wellness, spirituality, psychology, and entrepreneurship so you too can be winning life. Now here's your host, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified neuro-emotional technique practitioner, and certified entrepreneur coach, Jason Wasser.

Hey everybody, welcome back. It's been a while since I recorded a new episode. And today's guest is a coach who focuses on a life by design approach. And if you have been hanging out with us long enough, you will know that you've heard me also talk about a very simple concept, a lifestyle by design. Very much, I'm sure we're gonna be sharing a lot of similar approaches, tactics, mindset, which is why I'm so excited to have today's guest, Jack Revell. He's hanging out with us all the way from London. And Jack, welcome.

Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here.

Oh, I'm so glad to have you. So, you know, as we're going through your story, right? I love having guests who have eclectic turns and like pivots and just stuff that they never thought that they'd end up doing. And you became a coach because you had some stuff that was going on professionally and personally. So I'd love for you to share a little bit of that story.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Thank you for the opportunity. It's, you know, coaching is a— first of all, I like to think of coaching as a tool, right? We— when you learn to coach, it's very much like it becomes this sort of all-encompassing thing and you think you need to do it a certain way for a certain person and all this sort of stuff. But actually coaching is just a tool, right? Just like mentoring or just like like teaching or just like, you know, advising. It's a tool that you use in your toolbox. Coaching for me was always something I'd almost done without realizing it to myself. Self-development, reading, kind of like always bettering myself was something I was into. I didn't really put a label on it. And it was only when I studied how to coach and what it actually does and the kind of the processes of how you kind of get from A to B to C and kind of plan that, as you said before, a life by design. That you really do see the benefits and the outcome. So my coaching journey started kind of back in 2017. I actually was really fortunate to be given a coaching experience from a friend who said to me, I think this would really benefit your life.

And I sort of—

I'll be honest with you, I thought when at first I was like, hang on, you're sending me to somebody to tell me how to live my life, right? I was like, is that a thing? Anyway, it was free. It was a free— it was a present. So I'm not going to say no. Walked in, and I like to think I went in with an open mind, but I think now I think back on it, I definitely went in with a bit of skepticism thinking, is this going to work? Like, am I going to ask when, you know, how quickly am I going to become a millionaire? Or like, what's the secret to life or whatever? But actually what happened was that, you know, the coach flipped it around and made it all about what is it that I really want and how do I want to get there? And I came out of it enlightened. I was like, Wow, in that hour and a half, I've actually just learned more about myself than I ever knew. And I ended up booking like 6 more sessions, and then that got me on this huge like self-development journey. And then, yeah, about 6 months after that, I was like, you know, I want to study this. And so I decided to get into it a bit more. Now, at the time, my background is in the modeling, presenting, acting world, so I've been doing that for about 14 years. And I, I learned this as sort of a side gig. It was a bit like a sort of in-between when shoots and stuff were a bit quiet. I thought, I'll just you know, I'll just, I'll just do that and sort of pick up some clients along the way. But then obviously fast forward to kind of back end of 2020, um, also back in 2019, early 2020, you know, the pandemic started to kick in and it was just like, oh okay, this is, this is real. Like, I, I'm not going to be able to work in the modeling industry and in the acting space. Like, it's all just, it's all just dead. So what I'm going to do, I'm going to have to fall back on kind of my coaching. But it was such a blessing in disguise because Now I actually can't see myself doing anything other than actually helping people in, in this space. And, you know, in a way, what I help people with, with this whole Life by Design, is what I've done to myself kind of by default. But I've also made the effort to actually put myself out there and go, no, that's where I want to be, that's what I want to earn, that's what I want to be doing, that's what I want to be sharing. And then that's kind of what's happened. It's a manifestation, you know. Some people call it the universe, other people call it logic. Whatever you want to look at it, it's still, it's still, it's still the same thing.

So when people are thinking about this, right, because I'm a therapist, and I also do a lot of coaching, that there's niches, right? There's focuses, there's that this idea of, you know, I joke with people, I'm like, you know, how does someone become a life coach? When they asked me that, and I'm like, are you sitting down or standing up? And they'll say, I'm sitting down, I'm like, great. "Pull your chair an inch to the left." And they said, "Okay." I did that, I'm like, "Congratulations, you're a life coach." Right? So on one side, there's people who are, right? There's a very minimal barrier to entry. And on the other side, there are people who are crafted, gifted, wonderful experts in this world, right? And I've seen both sides of the coin. And I know that no matter what we're doing, whether it's a business, right? When you're selling a product, when you're, whatever we're focusing on, we're focusing on something, solving a specific problem. And when you talk about a life by design, when you talk about being proactive, when you talk about like, huh, I didn't realize all of this stuff about me that someone can help me pull out within an hour. What were some of the, the struggle and pain points that you were going through at that time that you had some ahas about that this modality in general, right, is something that can be washed and repeated and applied to people over and over again? And two, from there, how do you take that and now apply that as an expert coach?

So it's, it's so funny that you asked me this question because I had a session actually with my coach this morning, and it was actually, instead of it being like an exploratory session for the next, say, 2, 3, 4 months, whatever, it was an exploratory session for the next 5 years. And it was really, really powerful because what we actually decided that we worked on was how can you use what you thought were your downfalls for your now strengths, right? Now, let's give a bit of insight into who I am. I am somebody who's a little bit like an all-or-nothing character. To give you some examples, you know, like, I will, you know, at the— I'm actually, as of Monday, I'll be a year sober, right? So for me, it's like— thank you. So for that sort of thing, like, if you knew me from before, you'd laugh very hard at that statement because I was the guy that would go out most nights. I'd always have a drink. I'd always be that kind of guy. But I was just, no, I'm going to stop. I went from never running even a half marathon before to committing to an Ironman, literally from one— So it's the thing that I've just had this all-or-nothing mentality. And I've always thought of it as a bit of a hindrance. I've always thought of it as like, well, I can never stick to one thing. I'm too passionate about one thing and then I kind of take it all the way to the top and then I drop it straight away. And he said, no, that's, that's not a hindrance. Like, how is that a strength of yours? And, and we sort of talked about how actually that strength has allowed me to actually try things at like 100% energy to get 100% out of it, to then decide whether it's something I want to continue or not. It's almost like this, this game of sprints and sprints and walk, sprints and walks, rather than just consistently running. And, and so yeah, that was, that was a big sort of eye-opener for me today. But, uh, Relating that back to where I started, when I first started coaching, was that I didn't believe I could coach. Just what you said before, it's like anyone can become a life coach, right? It's not, it's not, it's not rocket science, but it does take a certain type of person to become a coach, right? You've got to be, you've got to be able to listen more than you talk. You've got to be able to ask the right questions. You've got to be able to understand somebody quite quickly so that you can get the most out of them in the time that you have. And me being a people person, I sort of thought to myself, well, I'll be quite good at this. But naturally there's this sort of barrier to like, oh, well, I like to get to know someone this way, but they're teaching me to do it this way. So like, how do I join these dots? And what you learn obviously, as you coach more and you realize that actually coaching is more of an art than it is a science, you know, it's much more sort of fluid. It's much more about the person. It's about the rapport. And what I found was actually that the more I lived my life the way I wanted to live it, I actually became an inspiration to others to wanting to work with me. And I used to ask this question a lot, like, what is it that made you want to work with me over any other coach? They said, I just resonate with how you do this, or I love the fact that you do that, or the fact that you've just gone sober for 3 months, I like that, you know, that sort of thing. And it made me realize that actually by you being yourself is probably the most powerful tool that you have. And, you know, I love this quote, and, you know, if you've heard me on a few podcasts, you'll know I use this a lot, but it's from a guy called Naval Ravikant, and he says that your uniqueness is your competitive advantage, right? Your uniqueness is your competitive advantage because nobody else can be you. No one else can be you in any way, shape, or form. No one's got the backstory you've got. No one's got the future you've got. You are you and you alone. So unless you're harnessing your skills and putting them into the right place, you're doing your— not just yourself, but anyone else that comes in your path— a disservice by not being yourself and embracing your weirdness, your, your fun, your, your skills, your knowledge, everything else like that. So I think that from— to sort of ask your question, becoming a coach has made me realize that actually I can be myself and still be a success and still enjoy, you know, the fruits of my labor, but also do the things that work for me as well. So yeah, it's been a really powerful journey, and, and I've, yeah, definitely created a life out of something I never thought was possible before.

Yeah, the topic of putting out your vulnerability, putting out your pain point, painting out your struggles of what got you to where you got to is a huge part of this process. And it's funny, my mother's mother, her two brothers are old school psychiatrists that do talk therapy. So like we're talking about, like, right, they're trained as like Freudian, like on the couch, right? Like was analytical, right? Where you don't even see the therapist that you're talking to, like, that's their thing. And I'm at the other end, solution focused, brief therapy. I do a lot of integrative and alternative medicine approaches, functional medicine I'm supportive of. And then, right, going into coaching, it's like the complete opposite extreme of like, I want you to fire me as soon as possible and just come back in for an oil change type of paradigm, right, versus like, you're going to be my client for 20 years, and maybe we'll get this much done. So the idea of like, us as, as, as helpers, right, coaching therapists, as helpers being vulnerable with our own insecurities, our own weaknesses. Now, it's not a point of like, cross-dumping and like oversharing, but here's what I went through and here's how I got there. Will this work for you? Or someone seeing that because you put that out there, right? I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist who's divorced, but that makes me a better therapist. That makes me a better couples counselor. I'm a way better couples counselor now than I was 10 years ago when I was going through it or when I— right? Or if I didn't go through it. So I, you know, I love this idea of finding the things that you have struggled with, or that we would see as a weakness, and using that as a leverageable jumping point into something else. In fact, I had this conversation yesterday with one of my clients, and they were trying to figure out like how to motivate their team at work because they were afraid that if they did more strategy work in their office, this person was afraid that their team would look at her and say, she's disappearing, she's abandoning us, she doesn't care about us. So she's debating, you know, being on the floor right in front of them versus being in her office. And I'm like, well, where is this coming from? She's like, well, this was my original experience when I was being trained, whether— where they're at now. And now I'm in that position. And I'm like, well, why don't you share that story with your team and say, if it seems this way, because this is what it was like for me, this is my pain point, this is what I suffered through when I was you guys, I want to do everything possible to not have you do that. In fact, I'm proactively telling you, this is what it might feel like for some of you. And if it does, come talk to me. But if you see me in my office, don't assume that that's what I'm doing to you. And if you still feel that way, still fine, you have my doors open to you to discuss that. And it was just like, oh my god, that's so simple. And I'm like, but yeah, it doesn't have to be this whole crazy thing. But it's about like using that as a proactive. And then we solved something else with, you know, a family member. And I'm like, just apply what we did there. Now take that and apply that there. And they're like, Oh, you mean tell them that I might come home upset versus I walk in the door and they have to notice that I'm upset? Like, no, no. Yeah, I am on my way home. I had a frustrating day. I might not be the best version of myself. I just want to give you a heads up. Oh, crap.

Right?

So walk me through from your side of seeing things, right? How similar is that vantage point, right? That it's not the problem that's the problem, it's the belief that we have about the problem that's the problem?

Yeah, it's super interesting. So when, when I have a problem, I'm a very logical thinker. I think about, right, what, what is it that I'm feeling resistance on? What is the thing that's really causing me to feel this way? Is it an emotion that I don't want to do something, or is it like a physical thing that's stopping me from doing it, either a piece of software or a person or whatever?

Yeah.

So then when it comes to the way I coach it, it's— there are loads of different types of coaching styles out there, and I've, and I've been coached by people who are way more emotional, way more in touch with that sort of spiritual side, like, how does it feel to do this? And whereas I'm a little more practical, I'm a little bit more like, all right, well, what could you do? Or what would you do? Or like, let's just take that out of the situation, let's take the fear out, let's take this out. What, like, what's, what's actually going to get you from A to B, right? And almost kind of just look at it from in a black and white scenario. So for me, looking at solving a problem is, is like, it's like a game, right? You know what the solution is because you know where you want to get to, right? You know that to get there, there is a 5 or 6, 7, 10 ways or whatever you can get there, but it's about which one you want to take. So I kind of play this, this— play this game where in simple, simple ways you sort of say, right, so let's say that the aim is to get— let's, let's take a really simple example like losing weight, right? A fitness trainer, because, you know, we can all relate to that. So 'Your goal is to lose weight, okay? What could you do to lose weight, right? You could eat less, you could run more, you could, uh, you know, get a personal trainer, you could, um, I don't know, do a fad diet, you know, you could do whatever, you know, all these options.' And you write them down on the piece of paper. I then ask the question, 'Right, which one of these would be the easiest to do?' And they, then, you know, the client was all going, 'Hmm, probably that one.' Cool. And then say, 'Right, same question, which one would be would have the most impact if you did it straight away? Oh, that one, that one, definitely that one. Okay, cool. Which one do you think you'd enjoy the most? Oh, interesting, maybe, maybe that one. Okay. And then which one do you think would, would have the most impact long term? Oh, maybe this one, this one here. And then what you tend to do is you look down the list and one or two of them have got more ticks next to them than the others. And then it becomes a decision of like, ah yeah, those are the ones don't matter. That's the most logical idea to take forward from this point forward. So, you know, that's a very simple but quick example of how I can take someone from a place of not understanding how to get to where they want to go to suddenly have a clearer direction as to where they want to go. The difference then is where they actually do it or not, which is then where obviously the accountability comes in. It's the, right, what are you going to commit to? Like, if it's the easiest thing to do is not buy cookies at the supermarket, it's like, so what are you going to commit to? Not going to buy them on, they're not going to go on the shopping list, you know. So it's things like that that I think are sometimes so simple but sometimes overlooked in sessions. And, you know, I've had coaching from me before and I've sort of thought, I kind of wish someone would do that exercise on me because I know that it will work. But they've got all these, you know, everyone's got their own methods, of course. But yeah, it's, it's, uh, it is interesting then when you know that you then apply it to different parts of your life and, and it works. As you said, like with your example, it's if you have a system that works and you have a format that that works, then why not apply that to other areas of your life to see if it solves other problems and fixes other solutions?

Yeah. The differentiation that you used in that exercise is so simple and so profound because we all carry stories that are either old stories that are not even ours, right? Family, culture, gender, race, religion, whatever. And the fear factor component of it, the time, the energy, right? It's always the Is it cost over value versus value over cost, right? Which way do we, do we look at things? And we know that value over cost always is more impact. But the idea of differentiating the story of going through each of those different narrative lenses— which one will be easiest, which one would be most impactful, which one have the long-term benefits— and having leading them to come up with their own answer, with their own bias that people don't realize that we all carry about something. Really does clear out the clutter. And I love looking at those differentiating type questions. And I love asking this to my clients, very similar to what you're saying, is if you weren't coming in for this problem, or within the next 14 minutes we solve this problem, what would be the biggest problem that you would want to come in for that you never had the time, effort, or energy to because this other crap has been getting in the way? In other words, you think you're coming in to solve a mountain, But there's a bigger mountain on the other side that you will never get to because you've made this mountain bigger than the other one. So until we— but let's say that never existed. So what would— and then we have this big massive other cool thing, solve that, and that ends up solving the first thing. But right, we get so stuck in our, in our, in our myopic limited perspective, or we, we, we translate like what you were saying, like How do we get this out of the way? And we come up with like 14 different stories or self-sabotaging, self-limiting beliefs that I love it. Esther Hicks talks about, right? The sifting and sorting in the law of attraction world through sifting and sorting through what feels better, what doesn't feel better, what feels good, what doesn't feel good. So I stopped talking to my clients and I challenge them on, don't talk to me about, oh, I made a mistake. Did it feel healthy for you? Did it get you the outcome that you desired? Did it move you further down towards that goal or towards that relationship or whatever? Don't tell me like, oh, it was the right thing, it was the wrong thing. Okay, no, no. Did it feel healthy? And did it align with your values? Right? Those are the two, right? And that's simplicity because we're distilling and differentiating and whittling away those things. So walk me through that, like from your perspective, personal rules that people carry and your experiences with like helping people filter through like stuff that isn't even theirs, right? I love that. That version of, right, whether it's in business and relationships, personal, spirit, whatever aspect, we have these things, right? I'm 5'2". So I always, you know, a few years ago when I started working with my coach, Rick, who's a business entrepreneur coach in Dallas, who has this incredible program, like when I started seeing that I'm bringing value to people who are ridiculously exponentially more successful to me, I'm like, Oh, I'm done playing small, right? But it was not just like small as in like whatever, but like I'm done playing 5-foot-2.

I absolutely agree. I think, I think it's lovely how you can recognize so quickly in life how things don't always have to be played the way that you think they do. I think that when it comes down to people making excuses, because that's really what it is, isn't it? It's like, oh, I don't want to play in that league, or I don't want to work with that person, or I can't do this, or I can't do that. It comes down to excuses. And I just always ask one thing where's the evidence? Where is the evidence? You know, like, I catch myself doing it myself sometimes. I'm like, ah, you know, I can't go for a run today. Why not? Ah, weather. Ah, a bit of a niggle in my knee. Uh, you know, not feeling up to it. It's just excuses. There's no— there's no real evidence as to why I can't. It's just— it's just because I can't be bothered. But when it comes to real life stuff, so I've had clients in the past that will come to me and say, like, okay, I really want to achieve this. Let's say it's like, I really want to get X amount more in my business. I'm like, okay, cool. So where are you at right now? What's stopping you from doing that thing that you say you really want to do? Well, and they list off about 500 things that are stopping them. And I sort of say, okay, cool. So now I want you to do is take all those things you've just said to me and I want you to give me like rock hard evidence as to why they are stopping you. And suddenly they get this moment of like, um, Oh yeah. And what they realize is actually it's all just made up stories in their head. It's all just made up things that are stopping them from doing it. And it doesn't actually become about the end goal. It becomes about working through the things that are stopping them getting through that end goal. It's the barriers to entry. It's the glass box that we all seem to put ourselves in. We can see the thing that we want because it's the see-through glass, but we don't move any further towards it. We don't expand our horizons because of whatever it is, the stories we tell ourselves, the people telling us we can't, or the people we compare ourselves to on social media. You know, I find that like a huge, great big topic, which, you know, I'd love to, you know, maybe touch on. But it, it comes down to essentially people not believing in themselves enough to be able to do what they really want to do. And as everyone should know, is that if you don't believe in yourself, how can you expect anyone else to do so? People want other people to help them, right? But as the age-old expression goes, you can only be helped if you help yourself, right? And, you know, I, I, I speak to people daily who are like, oh, you know, Jack, I'd like to be able to do this, or I'd like to do that, or they, you know, how can you show me how you did this and how you did that? And I said, look, I'm going to be honest with you, I didn't do it by myself. I didn't do it by myself. I hired somebody, or I asked someone for help, or I don't know everything. I probably know about 1% of what the world has to offer, but the guy over there that I asked, he knows another 1% that I don't know about. So therefore, by me asking him about his 1%, I suddenly become a bit more knowledgeable about his stuff, but it helps me get to where I want to go. People then don't— they, they understand that. They're like, oh wow, okay, so I just have to ask people. But I'm like, yeah, but unless you find someone super nice and super really lovely, they're not going to do it for free, right? And this is where it comes down to it. People don't want to invest in themselves because they don't see the value in it. I'm like, when you see— when you, when you see the return on investment on yourself, it's, it's, it's like It's like winning the lottery. It really, really is. Because there's this other thing that I like to talk about, which is instead of ROI, the return on investment, you look at the COI, which is the cost of inaction, right? What's the cost of you not doing the thing you really want to do? Are you going to be stat— stuck in the same job? You're going to be stuck in the same house? Are you going to never move out of your house? Like, whatever, whatever the thing is for you that you want to achieve, by not taking action and actually hiring someone to help you through that bit that you need help with and seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, the, you know, the, the fruit of the labor, whatever expression metaphor you want to use, if you're so short-sighted that you don't see what that's going to do for you in the long term, then you shouldn't be doing what you're doing. You shouldn't be in business. You shouldn't be doing— you know, I don't want to say you shouldn't be like allowed to be a human that has those sort of desires, because ultimately you're never going to get them. So you're going to just ultimately be in this depressed, sad, kind of victim-like state for the rest of your life. And until something shifts. And people expect that shift to happen overnight after a, you know, after a curry one night or something, and they just expect it to change. But it doesn't. It doesn't. It changes when you change. And I think that's one of the biggest things I find so— not frustrating, but so like sad about people that want to do better but don't want to actually do better.

Yeah, I had— it's, it's, it's, uh, this grin on my face for those of you listening to the audio version is As Jack is talking, you reminded me of a conversation I had, right? A few months ago, everybody jumped on Clubhouse if they're an iPhone person, right? So, and there's been some really cool people on there, all the thought leaders and Reddit, everybody from Gary Vaynerchuk to Elon Musk was on one night and like destroyed the system, right? It was crazy. And I remember I was giving a, you know, a room, I was hosting a co-hosting room with someone and I had like 45 minutes between the thing. I'm like, all right, let me jump on. It was like after all my sessions and I'm scrolling through and there was a room and it was about something with social media. And there was 8 people in the room. And it said that the top person was Matthew Hussey, who is a fellow— yeah, right.

Dating coach supreme. Yeah, right. Very well.

Right. So I'm like, okay, no, no, no, that's not like whatever. And I've, you know, followed him for years and I love his stuff. And so I went in the room, it was like 7 people in the room with him. I'm like, all right, this is absurd. And like, he just, he was explaining someone, someone asked a question. And then, right, if you're familiar with the clubhouse, right, you can raise your hand, you get brought up to ask a question. I'm like, okay, there was like that split second of like, I need to raise my hand. And I'm usually not, in the past, I would not be that proactive person, which is a massive shift over the last couple years. For me, especially using podcasting and all this other stuff to ask big asks. And I'm like, all right, this is here, this is available to me.. And I asked him, like, you know, I've been listening to your stuff for a while. Everything that I've always heard you talk about, I'm pretty much talking about in my practice, especially when I'm working with young single professionals. And I never want to come across it if I shared my own idea of it. Someone's gonna be like, well, Matthew Hussey just put that out last week. What do I need to do? How do we, those of us who are sharing similar like-minded values and ideas, right, as we start off with Your Life by Design, I'm a very big fan of Lifestyle by Design, I talk about a lot in my workshops about that, that, that, and So he goes, nothing new under the sun, but you're going to have your unique vantage point on that. And right. So it doesn't matter if everybody in the room literally copies my video, your personality, your experiences, your commentary, all that other stuff, which is really interesting because if you go on YouTube, what's the one of these newer sensations is people giving commentary while they're being exposed to some band or some song or some, right? And so they're not like doing anything new. They're just like, so-and-so watches, uh, I don't know, Chris Cornell's Black Hole Sun for the first time, right? Or, right, or Blink-182, or, you know, watches kids watching their video for the first time, right? Like, oh my God. So there's nothing new under the sun. You just have to find your unique angle. And I think everything that you and I are talking about today is about that. What's your unique angle? Or the way that I love talking about it is, what's the problem that you're uniquely positioned to solve, either A, because of your pain points, because of what you've been through that you've achieved, or because there's something from work or something that you've been in industry for a while that, right, there's that little missing gap that no one's solving within that industry that you can now take it outside and be leverageable of that. But tying into that last component of when we're looking to work on something, and this is something that I know that you are probably like all gung-ho about, is that like we want to attract people. When you're saying that people don't always buy into or invest, The barrier to entry right now is zero to get started. Thought leaders, podcasts, YouTube videos, TED Talks, all that stuff. But I'm wondering what your thought is on this next thing. And I've been marinating with this and I haven't shared this with anybody. So you're the perfect person. The people that we get attracted to in that thought leader, coaching, podcast, whoever we start to follow, I'm finding that there are character traits, there are skill sets, But there, there are unclaimed parts of ourselves that we need to focus on the most, that by having those people in our realm, whether we're working with them one-on-one or just absorbing their content, will hopefully give us that balance in our life by osmosis. But really, at the end of the day, the trick is to internalize it and making it actionable and empower ourselves to bring that skill set to us and then leverage it there.

So I think, first of all, I love this. This, what you just said there, is so resonated well on Clubhouse, right? I'm the same as you. Clubhouse was something that came along and I was like, this is cool, this is new, I'm a bit bored during lockdown, let's get on this, right? I actually tell you a story. I actually was the first person in the world to run 100 kilometers while live on Clubhouse.

Right.

That's my claim to fame.

Yeah.

Until I break another record. But yeah, so for me, it was a platform to be able to just not just connect with people, but to also share some cool stuff and also just to spread a really good word. I did it in memory or in— sorry, in aid of mental health awareness for the pandemic, right, and what's been caused. But in terms of the characteristics you talk about with people that are kind of— you join a room, for example, And I'll be honest with you, Clubhouse has got a lot of, you know, big swingers, a lot of kind of thing— people that like to talk about themselves, a lot of people that also share value. But there's a lot of, um, egotistical people in that place, right?

Sure.

Which is fine, right?

Fine. As it is everywhere.

Absolutely.

It's just a new platform for it.

It's just an audio version of what Instagram has been for 5 years, or what, you know, YouTube, you know, is going— it's just a different way of of voicing it, right? Pun intended. But you know what I find interesting is that, well, you're talking about the repurposing of stuff and like taking content from somebody who you know that works and like doing it your way. So many people are scared to do that. So like what I do, I coach, it's what I do as a sort of a core offering. But what I do is I have a course that's, it's all about video marketing, right? It's called Live and Clicking. And it basically helps people go live so they can get clicking on their business. What I say to people in this course, I say to them, look, there's nothing that's new that's in the world, nothing at all, right? Everything that's been invented has been invented 6,000 times over. You've just got to find what works for you. Now, it's not hard. You can actually go on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, all these different websites, and you can literally search for somebody who's in your space. So let's just take a coach, like you go and find the top coach, Tony Robbins. Let's talk about him, right? You can find all of his content for free on the internet as much as you like. You can also go off and find what has got the most hits, what's got the most likes, what's got shares. You can see all this information, right? And if you can't see it properly, you can pay someone a very small amount to get that data extracted. And then all you do is you just review it and go, well, okay, Tony Robbins talks a lot about the 6 basic human needs, right? And that seems to get a lot of hits. Hmm, what if I was to create some content around the 6 basic human needs in the way that I see it? I think it might get some hits. I think it might get people interested because, you know, there are X amount million people out there who like it. It's just a pace a bit, but being consistently and putting it out there. And so I think that people are too scared to almost like, in inverted commas, copy other people. But it's not copying at all, it's taking inspiration from other people, it's taking inspiration from people in your space, in your industry. And of course, like Tony Robbins is in his 60s, right?

Right.

God forbid he could go for another 60 years, who knows. But if he pops the— you know, pops his clogs in the next 40 years, right, there will be another Tony Robbins that will come through the ranks, and another one after that, right? So why not be that person? If you're listening to this, this podcast and you're thinking to yourself, yeah, but I'm not like the go-to person in my space— why not? Like, there's nothing stopping you. What story are you telling yourself that you can't be that go-to person? Because every single person that is that go-to person, I guarantee you they had that same thought once upon a time. Tony Robbins was never the go-to person in the space. It was Jim Rohn, it was Zig Ziglar, it was all these other people. But he's now overtaken them because he's just done what he's done well, you know. So I think that it's so important to embrace who you are, embrace the, the qualities that make you unique, and, and like triple down on them. Don't, don't look at yourself and go, I'm a little bit shy, so I think I need to like build my confidence up. I'm like, no, be shy, be like the shy person that does your thing, because there'll be a lot of people out there that will have exactly the same values as you, who will respect you for being that person in your space. So I think, yeah, I think it's so, so important.

And even build that community around that, which is like, so if you're that shy person, then, and you want to go into this space of how do I be useful for other people, well, that's, that's it. It's like right in front of your face. Hey, are you shy just like me? Have you gone through these experiences? This is an experience I went through. Have you gone through something like that? If so, reach out to me. If so, let's get together. If so, let's jump on this Clubhouse room. If so, Right? Let's meet up for coffee. That it's some— I love this simplicity on the far side of complexity mentality, where it's literally right in front of our face majority of the time. And I'm always taking back to my clients to hold on, wait a second, get out of the emotionality, get out of the old story, get out of the old news. One of my clients yesterday asked me, Jason, do you think I'm gonna be able to do this? And I'm like, change the beginning part of the question. Keep the do this. And they're like, okay, when do you think I'll be able to do this? No, no, no, no. Keep the last do this part. Ask me another question. And they're like, they're just locked up because their perspective was still A, waiting for permission, B, from a place of like radical lack that it's so far removed from this. And I'm like, do you want my help on this one? They're like, yeah. I'm like, Jason, what are the steps that are needed in order for me to do this?

Practical, logical, simple. That's all it is.

Right, right. And then if someone is too stuck in like all the nitty-gritty, then I go to the other side of the coin. I was like, oh, well, wait, what would that feel like? What would the emotions— right, who would be there to support you? What would be the— right, all the excitement around it? And right, so It's always as, as Gary V talks about, the clouds and the dirt, right? The macro micro, right? It like, I do that dance consistently between, if someone's stuck in way too emotionality, how do you get them to the practical side? If someone's stuck way too practical, way too microscopic, how do you get them to more of that 50,000-foot view? And I think when you're talking about the art of guiding people, I think that's part of that dance that we're as much dance instructors as we are, you know, guides and coaches and therapists and stuff like that is I'm a huge pattern person. So I can see them like, I don't— you know, you keep using this word. What does that word actually mean to you? And then they give me a definition. I'm like, hold on, let me get my co-therapist. And I'm like, hey Siri, what does this word mean? And they're like, oh shit, that's a complete— that doesn't mean what I thought it meant, right? And it's like, we get stuck in creating these things, these beliefs, these blockages, these walls, exactly like you were saying, that are sometimes ridiculously absurdly easy to just burst.

Yeah, absolutely. I think as well what a lot of people forget about with specifically with coaching and anyone that is in the space of helping others get to where they want to go is that you, when you first learn, when you first get taught how to coach, you're told that you can't tell someone how to do something, right? And there is obviously an element of that that's so true, but there's also an element of like, right, if somebody is looking at you and saying I want to do something in my life like yours. I want to become a therapist, or I want to do what you do. I want to start a podcast, whatever it might be. They're going to come to you for advice just as much as they offer mentoring and coaching because they want to do what you do. So I find it, I find it so fascinating how people don't actually just say, you know, hey, would you like me to share with you how I got to where I am? And, and that question can just open up a whole new box of tricks of like, because someone could just say Well, yeah, of course. And you said, well, the way I did it was X, Y, and Z, and you can take whatever you want from that and you can use it in your own way. And sometimes people are just wanting an answer to a question rather than having to think about it themselves. And so I think it's so powerful getting someone into a space where they're thinking about what it is they want, but when it's a different type of thinking to just solving a simple problem. Like, for— I'll give you an example. So if I was to like say to someone, Okay. How could I automate a system of getting someone to sign up to an email address or sign up to a free giveaway and then all the way through my email sequence and to the point where they're on a webinar with me, right? How do I do that? That's a sort of a practical element. I'd ask someone, what software do you use? How do you run it? How do you manage it? Boom, that's an answer. Whereas if another question might be like, who do I want to become in a year's time? There's no answer to that. There is no answer to that because there— it's an exploratory question. So then the question doesn't become about, well, who do I want to become? It comes down to like, well, okay, if you don't know that yet, who don't you want to become? Who don't you want to be in a year's time? Okay, well, I don't want to be— I don't want to be this, I don't want to be that, I don't want to be here, I don't want to be there. Cool, let's write those down. How do you invert those? Oh, so I don't want to be stressed.

Okay.

So how do you avoid that? And then it starts to become practical. And you can see what I mean. You come from this place of exploratory, 50,000-foot view, just as you said, all the way down to like, okay, so you don't want to be stressed. You want to be free. You want to have a great— what does that look like? All the way down to, as Gary Vee says, the dirt and the minute details. And then you suddenly solve the problem. And I think that either way you look at it, it's about problem solving. And I think that there's so many people out there that don't know how to solve their own problems and they've got other skills that are just as valuable. But when it comes to problem solving, it takes a certain type of person to solve somebody else's problems without actually telling them how to do it. It's about asking the right questions. And I think it's a super powerful skill.

It is massively. And it's funny because I came up with this idea of like, I get to be people's rearview mirror and sideview mirrors. As well as sometimes I get to be their high beam when they realize that they could just need to switch it on by asking them the questions that need to be asked that no one else is going to ask. And I love always caveating with certain clients. I have one client I've been seeing for a while and we get much more graphically playful with our words or more colorful with our words. I'm like, I want to just give you a heads up, in about 30 seconds you're going to tell me to go fuck myself.

Love that.

Right? Right. And which goes back to the conversation that we were talking about 15 minutes ago with my client of like saying, well, just put it out there what you think might happen before it even happens, right? You're pulling the tablecloth off the table, right? That old magic trick, right? So I'm like, okay, you're going to hate me in a second. You're going to tell me to go fuck myself and you're going to be really pissed off at me. And so are you okay with that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would never. I'm like, no, no, no. And then we playfully go through the whole process. But it's that idea of It's, it's not that far away. The solving of the problem is really not as far away as we create it to be. And when we get out of that chaos mode and go into the simplicity mode— and I love what you were saying about what do you not want to be— and, and, and I would add to that, be like, great, so what are the character traits on the positive side of that coin? And who is out there that you notice emulates those things? And can we use those, right, again, as that zero barrier entry? And I say this with clients all the time, like, well, you want to solve a problem, okay, so who on LinkedIn in your world is the person who's putting out the most content about that? Like you said, right, what's the reverse engineering of the numbers with the Tony Robbins videos? You want to solve a problem with a nonprofit that you don't know, well, is there any— anybody out there also helping solve that problem, maybe in a different country, maybe in a different region, maybe in a different part of, right, whatever. Just, can I, I'm not asking for a job. I'd love 20 minutes to pick your brain. I'm passionate about this. I see you're passionate about this. I don't get to meet as many people who are. I would love to have 20 minutes of your time. Do you have it?

Right.

And it's that simple, but people are afraid to ask.

Yeah. And that, that is, I think, one of the biggest problems that we see in not just society, but also just in human beings is that they don't know how to ask the right question to get the answer they're looking for, right? Comes down to essentially somebody saying, I am vulnerably going to open myself up to this person, whether it's a friend— actually, friends and family are actually the worst people to open up to because they give you the answer that they think you want to hear, right? Whereas that's why a coach or a therapist or whoever is really good for that, because they have this non-judgmental, uh, objective view that's just like, ask me anything and I'm going to tell you what I think. Or what I tell you, I'm going to ask you a question that's going to help you think about what the answer should be. And if somebody is given that space, given that space to really think like, okay, take away this, take away that, take that out of the equation, take this out of the equation, what do I actually want in the next 6 months, 6 years, 60 years, whatever it might be? And it doesn't have to actually come true, but the fact that you ask them that question, they get to think about it, just opens up up different neurons inside your brain. It allows you to connect with different parts of your mind. And I think what a lot of people don't understand is that actually coaching, as much as it is an art, is a science as well. It's so closely linked to neuroscience and NLP and all that sort of stuff. And it's fascinating when you get into the weeds of it, right? Because people— and again, this is kind of relating back to what Tony Robbins teaches— it's like all about the physiology. Thank you. Physiology. It's about your state, it's about your language, it's about how you present yourself, all that feeds right back into you who you are as a person. And, and, you know, if something simple— like, I was actually on a, I was on a live yesterday, and there was a guy called Vikram who was talking about how when his clients feel a bit kind of, um, lethargic and a bit like don't know what to do, he's like, stand up, sit down, stand up, sit down. What are you doing to me, man? He's like, well, I'm making you change your state so you can start thinking differently to what you were before. And it does work. Like, it really works. And it's, you know, something simple like that, that could really just shift someone's mindset in the right way.

It's funny, when you were talking about the Tony Robbins video, and the number one thing that he talks about, I'm like, and the number two thing that you're probably going to find is this state first trait stuff. So it's funny that you just mentioned that. So the physiology of everything, and I love playing with the physiology, because of, right, the theory that I have now as a therapist using this modality called neuro-emotional technique, which is originally came out of chiropractic, but it came out of— for originally for chronic injuries, and then evolved into emotional limiting self-sabotage using muscle testing and the Chinese medicine meridians. It's a brilliant, brilliant modality that licensed healthcare professionals can get trained in. But Dr. Walker, Dr. Scott Walker, who, who created the modality, has taught us that emotions aren't psychological, they're physiological. And when we make that shift of I'm predisposed to having this whole story, and this is how my family is, and my great-grandmother was depressed, and my was depressed, so therefore I'm depressed. That's just emotional reality. Yes, you might have some biochemistry, you might have to change your nutrition, you might have to get your neurotransmitters tested, you might have to work with a functional medicine practitioner and change your diet and change your exercise, and you might need to do intermittent fasting and one meal a day and then figuring out what your insulin and your cortisol and all that other stuff is. But it doesn't mean you're predetermined or predisposed to always having to be that which was.

Yeah, absolutely. You, you'll only ever become what it is that you want to achieve by, by just doing the things that make you, you know, like your values. Actually, when people say, I want to be a millionaire, it's like, you'll get there if you start actually looking at your values and stop disregarding your friends and stop, you know, working super hard and like doing things, because you'll start to feel abundance in other, in other areas of your life. And I think it only takes— there's a guy, a really, really fantastic transformational coach called Rich Litvin, who I've done workshops with him. He's great, such a great coach. And his famous expression, if you've got to slow down to speed up, right? So powerful because it's just so true, you know, like the moment you start to feel like overwhelmed in any part of your life, whether it be work, family, friends, whatever, just slow it down. Take a second just to stop and look at what's going on around you and then speed up in the right direction to get you to be out of it or double down on it, whatever it might be. But I think it's so powerful to just take those moments to really, really reflect when you need to.

Yeah. So reactivity versus proactivity, right? You can't be truly proactive, again, in that chaos mode and without looking not how do I have to do this, but what are the 32 different ways? That I can do this. And one of my favorite Richisms is the, uh, right, that it's not the only work with the hell yeses. There's, right, there's no hell— it's either hell yes or hell no. Don't get stuck in hell maybe. So I'm a big advocate of that, right, with, with, with clients. And again, simplicity over everything. And every time I'm doing a workshop now, especially when you're making an ask for money, that's a substantial— for some people could be a substantial thing, right? I put in there If this is not an absolute hell yes for you, if you can't proactively block out this amount of time with either a babysitter or whatever you need to do to have no other distractions going on for these 4 hours over these 4 weeks, then it's okay that this workshop is not for you. But if it's a hell yes and you're able to do this, right, you're getting all the agreements, you're handling all of the objections before it becomes— in which is, I find, is like such a useful intervention, which again, because this is all like solution-focused therapy. This is how I was trained as a therapist, and that's why I loved hanging out with Rich. Rich was like, he's not a therapist, but he's coming from a very solution-oriented, solution-focused perspective. And that's what I was like, originally, they're masters of their craft. And I do believe that Rich is one of those people, right, where we can get out of the chaos mode and move into the simplicity mode. And as we kind of like, you know, wrap up, I know, we've been in chaos mode for the last year and a half. And, you know, we talked about, many people think this whole pandemic is over, it's nearing the end, and God willing, it should continue to be completely put to end, at least Unfortunately, in the more first world countries, other— India's really being ravaged right now. Brazil's really being ravaged right now. There's a lot of stuff that still hasn't yet pivoted as much as we hope and for this, thinking about the safety and health of everybody. But this idea of taking adversity into opportunity, I know that's something that you're really a big fan of. So I want to talk about that for the last little bit.

Absolutely. I think when you look at what's happened in the last, the last year. Just, let's just take it really simply. For the last year, people have lost lots of people, whether it be lives, jobs, livelihoods, whatever it might be. And I think that there is a very easy way out, and it's just to blame other people, it's to blame other things. And I think that as somebody who lives on the side of optimism, definitely looks at like the glass half full and all that sort of stuff, I think that it's it's sometimes easy to kind of get complacent and go, oh no, everything will be fine, everything will be fine, everything will be fine. But then without actually doing anything about it, then, you know, nothing's gonna happen. So when you see really nasty things happen in the world, you know, you can just sit back and let them happen, or you can take an opportunity to go, right, how can I make this work for me? And it's, you know, if I was to put you— this is what I did back in March 2020. I'd come back from a trip. I was in Sri Lanka for a couple of weeks and I'd actually been forced home because of COVID And I was like, what is this pandemic rubbish? Like, is this real? I thought it was just happening in China. I don't even know what's going on. Anyway, came home, the whole world was in lockdown. I was like, this is rubbish. I'm not going to lie. This is really bad. So I was like, right. And I had this optimistic view of like, oh, it'll be over in a week or two, but it didn't. And it got to the point where I started to think, okay, I'm going to need to actually create something out out of this that's gonna work for me long-term just in case. And so I took my coaching degree and I took my coaching knowledge and I integrated that with what I know best, which is being in front of cameras, right? Being in front of the screen, which is what I've done for so many years. And I started helping people with starting to show up as their own self for their business now that everything was going online. You know, so many people used to rely on the fact that you could go to a bar after work or you go to a seminar or an event or something and meet someone in the same space as you, right? And it would be a face-to-face thing and that was just how we did it. Nowadays, people meet people online and it's a normal thing. Do you remember like 10 years ago when you say I met someone online, they give you that raised eyebrow? Like, you met someone online?

Like I'll help you come up with this if we meet, right? It's like on the first date, we'll come up with a story to tell people how we really met.

Yeah, exactly. Nowadays, it's so normal. Like I cannot tell you how many people I've met in the last year who I genuinely regard as really good friends who I've never met. Like never met in person because I've just shared common interests. I've shared experiences. I have been, you know, through the ups and downs of whether it be careers or life or whatever it might be with those people. But kind of to bring back to your original question about turning adversity into an opportunity, the moment you start showing up as your real self is the moment other people start to be able to actually reach out to you for that real thing, right? Authenticity comes from being consistent and consistency comes from being authentic. They are so linked and it's ridiculous. And there's this other really weird paradox. I like to use the expression, that consistency plus commitment equals change, right? So if you consistently commit to something, you will see change as a result, right? But ultimately, what a lot of people come to me for is kind of confidence building and how to be confident on camera. And I say confidence isn't what you need, right? Confidence is a result, not a requirement. And actually what you need is you need to understand what it is that you want to do this for, prepare, practice, kind of be you in there, and then the confidence will come as a result of right? And if I took my examples as a kind of a caveat to this, I didn't know that I could be a coach until I started putting myself out there as a coach and started actually helping people in what I do. And now I'm super confident because I know that it works, I know that I help people, and I'm so excited for the next kind of like 3, 5, 10 years of my life because I know that even if we had another pandemic, even if World War III started, right, I know I'd be okay because I've battled through something that could have actually made me just pointless and like really depressed and really in a bad place. So if anyone's listening to this that's thinking like, you know, I've been there, you're the only person that can get you out of that. I'm sorry to be the hard truth here, but you're the only person that can get you out of that space. If you need help with that, Jason Wasser right here is a man to speak to, or, you know, I can, I can help you. But it's like, people, you know, are there to help others when they're in these sorts of spaces. So, you know, I think if you want to help yourself, so if you want to be helped, you need to help yourself first before you can have others help you as well.

Yeah. And knowing where to go, who to go to. One of my favorite things is to turn down a client, which sounds so weird from my vantage point of where I was when I first started my career, because we were talking about crystal clear clarity of where you're going. I know who I'm really good at helping. And I know who I'm really not good at helping or who I don't enjoy helping. And I just had this conversation yesterday with someone, we were talking about personality disorders and I'm like, my heart breaks when people are struggling, whether it's borderline or narcissism or even if there's the other side of it, which is, you know, could be like the bipolar stuff, which is not necessarily a personality disorder, but anything where there's much more of a, you know, a challenge regulation of emotions and experiences, it's very tough. I'm just not good at it.

Right?

But there are people out there that I meet, they're like, that's all I want to see every day. I love my clients from that world. I'm like, well, fantastic. And they're like, I have this entrepreneur-based client that I just can't get through. I'm like, well, send them here, right? And you have to create that community of knowing who are the best people in all aspects of our life that we want to refer to. And I'm doing this with one of my, one of my clients who's in the real estate space. I'm like, okay, so who is your go-to painter? Who's your go-to plumber? Who's your go-to such-and-such, right? Who's your go-to permit puller? Who's your go-to mortgage broker? And why aren't you meeting with all of them once a month and creating your own networking group and then creating value for each of them to connect with those other people that they don't know, right? It's, again, it's so simple that we can bring so much to other people by helping solve very simple challenges because that value system— and I know that like You probably have this, like, the word value is just like, you know, just bring value. It's such an overplayed word at this point, but it's really like we can find so many unique ways to position ourselves to bring something to others, to bring our own, to feel good because we all want to feel good. And let's own that. Like everything we're doing, like I'm sure you feel good when you're helping someone. I feel great when I'm helping someone. So we have an ego component of this, but for people to find the good, healthy ego of like, why would they do this? What's their buy-in? What do they want to do for others? Own your own ego approach to it in a healthy way. Um, and I, and I do see that especially coming from what we're coming through this last year is I stopped going to all social events, but I was giving a class for a young professional organization in person and they're like, well, do you want to still come here and do it? I'm like, nope, I'm going fully online because that's what works for me. 3, 4, 5 years ago, like, well, yeah, I don't want to disappoint you and let me do it from your place and I'll live stream it, but I'm But like, Grace, like, oh, what is this pandemic? What is like— but I immediately pivoted because I'm like, no, this is what makes me feel safe. I'm like, oh, okay. Like, there was no kickback, even though back in the day would have created a whole story of kickback. So I want to challenge people, especially with what you're saying, is like taking this as an opportunity to create, you know, again, as we're, as we're nearing hopefully the end of this pandemic, is we're all looking for community. We're all looking for like-minded people. And, and the more work you do on your stuff, the more that change of those people you're going to attract, right? Um, right. You can't attract someone who's healthier than you in a relationship. So if you're wondering what's, what's the common denominator between all of your crappy relationships, the common denominator is always us, right? So we have— if we want to have a different outcome, we got to change us. And, and that's the beauty of what both you and I and our colleagues are doing and getting the better us out there.

Yeah, absolutely. It's— I, I resonate with everything you're saying. I think it's, it's so, it's so true. We are also, as, as the expression goes, that the, some of the 5 people we hang around with the most— in this day and age, it can be quite a lot more than that because of the fact that we're all online. But ultimately, you still go to your same places, you still hang out in the one Facebook group or the one Clubhouse room or the one Instagram feed that you really enjoy because you get get the most from it. And, you know, it's okay to kind of switch between different ones and kind of get— take that value where it is. Rich Litvin's a great example. When I first started coaching, he was like my idol. I literally watched anything and everything of his. But then recently I haven't actually watched anything for about 5 months because just I've been in a different space. Now I'm obsessed with this guy called Justin Brown who's on YouTube, who's like a video nutter. And I'm like, I want to consume all your content, you know. So it's just about like absorbing that as and when you go. But yeah, I think, you know, being self-development— in self-development and being someone who develops themselves on a daily basis is just— it's just you're never going to fail, never going to fail in any way, shape, or form, whether it be business, spiritually, emotionally, physically, whatever. You're always gonna— you're always gonna win, right?

And the best example of this that to come out of this, I think, is the obsession with Ted Lasso. Which I don't know if it's made its way over to you guys. It's an Apple TV show about an American football coach who gets picked up to coach a football soccer team in London.

Oh, I haven't seen it. I have to look it up.

It's on Apple TV. And it's all about this guy who, whatever, he's getting taken advantage of by the owner of the team, but he's this positive, coachy, right? Aphorisms and metaphors. And I'm not going to let you drag anybody down. I'm going to uplift you and all these things. And it was the perfect pandemic TV show because it walks through everything that we're talking about, like, oh, wait, so you are trying to manipulate me? How can I help you not be that person anymore versus taking it personally, right? It's like, it's this beautiful, you know, uplifting. And it's also about like, you know, soccer in the UK. So it's, you know, for you guys on the other side of the pond, It's pretty cool. But it's, you know, imagine an American footballer, not football football, right? Not soccer football, all right, becoming a coach of a soccer team, a football team in the UK. Like that's the basis of it, right? With all those Americanisms. So, and his positivity, like as a coach, and it's just like, it's heartwarming and it's like, it's cute and it's fun and it's playful. So for me, that was like, that's been like one of the things I've burned through the show in like 3 days, the first season. But it's like, that was like a therapeutic couple of hours for me. And I know you have a good stack of books on your shelf. I have my stack of books. Rich's book is right over there in that little box. So is there anything that you love? Is there something that you've been reading and flipping through that you're like, oh man, this is good. People should get this book also.

Absolutely. So one book, my favorite book of last year, which I always brag on about, is the book called Essentialism by Greg McKeown. It's a book about how you should pursue less but better. And he is a— he's got a PhD, not sure what in, but he's a very smart guy, Scottish guy. And he talks about how in life we tend to give too much— too little amount of energy to things we actually want to give more energy to. So you wake up in the morning, you've got 100% energy to get to the day. Why do you give 10% Facebook, 10% to Instagram, 10% to LinkedIn, 10% 10% to Twitter, 10% to Clubhouse. Like if you're trying to grow a social platform, right? Just grow, just pick one and go with it because it will grow the amount, you know, you give it 25, 100%, whatever, you'll grow at that pace. So Essentialism was a really powerful book that I read. And then I think the other book that I really, really, really enjoyed, I think it might be, no, it's not there, is Atomic Habits by James Clear, who, I think if anyone hasn't read that book, just, just, just get it and read it because it just really hits home the simplicity of how you can actually form great habits in life that will just see you through things that you think are difficult and just gives you a slightly different, you know, thinking. Like, I get his newsletter every week and it's like every single time he gets me like, that makes so much sense. Like, how are you so clever? How are you so wise? He's such a wise man. But yeah, I'd say that those two books are definitely the ones that I've been looking and taking inspiration from over the last couple of months.

Awesome. And I hope today that everybody who's been listening to this episode definitely got some inspiration from this. And I want to just put out some stuff where you can follow Jack. If you go on Instagram, it's Jack W. Revelle, R-E-V-E-L-L. And same thing on your website, which will take you to your podcast and your masterminds and other cool stuff coaching with them, you know, definitely people out there who are, are like-minded to us, right? You've found another person who's part of the tribe of, of going to simplicity on the far side of complexity, of really becoming a better version of ourself, which is really all this podcast is about, is, right? We talk about therapy stuff, we talk about psychology, we talk about mindset, we talk about entrepreneurship, spirituality, alternative medicine. All as platforms and pillars of a healthy life. And the life by design that Jack is sharing with us is very much part of that. So Jack, thank you again for hanging out with us.

Pleasure. Pleasure's all mine. It's been an absolute pleasure to chat to you and Jason. Thank you so much for hosting this. And yeah, I'm excited to start to hear the feedback from this episode. I think there'll be a lot of people that we've connected with, but also I'd love to— yeah, it'd be great to do this again and to continue the conversation another time.

Yeah, for sure. So for anybody, when you do listen to this episode, and there is something specific, please, please, please, because you'll see the— the social media posts, and Jack will be tagged in it, as there are for all the episodes that get released. Please leave comments. Please tell us like, what was the nugget that like really like, that spoke to you? Think— tell us that there's something that you're going to take on now, or you're going to challenge now, or that you want to work with Jack, right? Or whatever it is, right? Like, share with us, give us that feedback. We love that. Like, check out his podcast, subscribe to his podcast, like, please, please, like, we do this because we love it. And it's part of our passion and our thing. So go on iTunes and leave us a starred review for, you know, any of our episodes. And I think that brings us— that brings us so much because that helps us get seen by other people and helps us move up in the rankings and people find, find us easier that way. So if there's anybody who did get value out of this episode, which I know you do, please, please, please take 30 seconds, go on iTunes, leave us a 5-star review, 4-star review, give us any review. So that's what you got out of it on both ours and yours. And Jack, we'll talk soon, my man.

Thank you so much. Have a good day.

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