Ep. 121- CIA Intelligence Officer Andrew Bustamante is an Every Day Spy

This is the You Winning Life Podcast, your number one source for mastering a positive existence. Each episode we'll be interviewing exceptional people, giving you empowering insights and guiding you to extraordinary outcomes. Learn from specialists in the worlds of integrative and natural wellness, spirituality, psychology, and entrepreneurship so you too can be winning life. Now here's your host, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified neuro-emotional technique practitioner, Your host, entrepreneur and certified entrepreneur coach Jason Wasser.

Hey, y'all, welcome back to another episode of the You Winning Life podcast. And this week's guest is literally only a couple hours away from me in Florida. He's out on the West Coast and soon to be the East Coast of Florida. But Andrew Bustamante is a former covert CIA intelligence officer, decorated military combat veteran, and successful Fortune 10 corporate advisor. After 20 years of leading human and technical intelligence operations for corporate and government clients, Andrew founded EverydaySpy.com, the first-ever online platform designed to teach elite spy skills to everyday people. He's been featured in both US and international media, and his training content has been praised for its innovative, authentic, and life-changing impact, which is exactly the pressure I'm going to put on you, Andrew, for having on everybody who's listening to this show with really no pressure. But welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. You have such a cool background, and I just wanted to, um, let you know I just finished season 2 of Condor. I don't know if you've seen that show yet.

I have not. I actually stay away from any kind of spy fiction, spy show, because it's— I'm imagining it's got to be what it's like to be a surgeon watching Grey's Anatomy, right? But yeah, I've got to imagine it's something like when a surgeon watches Grey's Anatomy, because it's just terrible. It's just—

I get it.

I love the entertainment value of it. And I know that people love being entertained, and that's great. But man, if covert operations played out like they do on TV, no, nobody would be covert. There would be nobody undercover, and there would be guns going off all the time.

Well, I do live in South Florida, so that's actually kind of what we're It is, it is kind of like, oh, okay, like, I literally know someone that 2 days ago got— she got carjacked. Oh, yeah, right. That was not a covert operation. That was pretty overt in the middle of the day on a Sunday. So unfortunately, this stuff is going down in the— yeah, it is, it is the chaos that is our world around us these days. So just a quick, you know, you don't have to go into the whole lifelong story. But how did you know that that was what you wanted to do?

Right?

Is it kind of like, you know, you see in the shows, in the movies, like you were approached out of school, or, or was this something you grew up with? Like, when was like that defining moment? You're like, you know what, I want to, I want to, I want to go into this world?

Yeah, I guess that was a little bit like the shows. Um, so, uh, the dime store version is I was actually, I was in the military. I hated short hair. I hated shaving my face. I hated shining my shoes. I hated getting up to an alarm at like 5 o'clock in the morning. So I was not a very good soldier, but I was there and all I wanted to do— it's like a bad breakup. When you break up with like your first girlfriend or your first boyfriend or your first love, as soon as you break up, what you want is someone who's 180 degrees different. So when I decided to leave the military, I wanted something that was 180 degrees different. So I actually applied to the Peace Corps and I was like, this is perfect. I'm going to go to Africa. I'm going to help children. Learn how to do reading and writing, and I'm going to meet like a hippie chick with hairy armpits and hairy legs, and I'm going to live happily ever after.

Living the dream.

Yeah. And I got picked up on the way. So CIA found my application somehow, and they were like, hey, we know you're trying to go overseas and you're trying to like fall off the map. You know, we'd like to offer you the same opportunity with a different organization.

So what was that like? That like, wait, how do they know who I am? How do they know I exist? And going from that level of where your values were at that point, what were some of those thoughts that were going through your head? You're thinking about like the identity and the, you know, being in that world with your, with the values that you wanted to now lead into.

So this is, it's a little bit embarrassing to admit to, right? But I think that people can relate. So I was 27 years old when I was approached. I don't know how intelligent or mature you were at 27. But I was not. So I didn't— my values were questionable to start with. I already had like moral flexibility and moral ambiguity, which is probably why they thought I'd be a good fit. But I basically was just looking for the next best thing. So when CIA was like, hey, do you want to come work for us instead of them? I was like, well, shoot, that sounds like an even better version. I was here to get a chocolate cupcake. You're offering me a chocolate cake. Like, this is an easy yes for me. How do you say no to an invitation like that? It wasn't until kind of later on that I started to develop a more mature set of values, a more mature set of, you know, goals and ambitions. And that's what transformed my CIA career, my post-CIA career. But at 27 years old, CIA says, do you want to come? And you're like, you're going to turn me into James Bond, I'm going to drive a fast car, I'm going to have like the attention of every beautiful woman within 50 square miles of me. I'm down.

And if she has hairy armpits, even better. Yeah.

Could you please?

Yeah. You just add that onto the list. Add that onto the list. So going back into this moral flexibility, moral ambiguity, it's interesting sitting here as a therapist and knowing, like we talked about before, that I have worked with first responders and those in service and Secret Service agents and all of these. There is no ambiguity at a certain point. Once you're in the process. So I love teasing apart these things that I don't get to ask often, but you brought that topic up, which is such a cool way of phrasing it— this moral ambiguity, moral flexibility. Where did that start shifting and start getting more clarified? Was there certain incidences that happened? Was there an aha moment? Was there kind of like, you know, every day just gets clearer and clearer, and all of a sudden you realize you're there? What was that process and journey like for you?

Yeah, so it's a— I think your question's really, it's really interesting. And I would, I'm going to start with my interpretation of your question. You tell me if it's the same you're intending to ask. So I didn't look at myself, I never looked at myself when I was, you know, pre-CIA or even at CIA, I never looked at myself as morally ambiguous. I always kind of looked at myself as, oh, of course I have morals, right? You don't lie, you don't steal, you don't cheat. That's, that's something I grew up with in the military. You know, you stay loyal to your family and, you know, service before self and all that kind of like, you know, partially mantra-building brainwashing stuff that they push into you. But there's a lot of cultural gravity to it, too, and religious constructs that help define like, you know, every life is valuable and the sanctity of human life and, you know, following the Ten Commandments or whatever it is that your faith set is. So there was— I never thought I was morally flexible. I never thought I was morally ambiguous. Until I got to CIA and I started realizing I actually do have a hierarchy where morals and ethics become negotiable, right? So as an example, right, do I believe in the sanctity of human life? Yes. But if someone is threatening my child, is there one life that I'll put over the other? Yes, absolutely. Now, most parents can relate to that, and most people wouldn't bat an eye and say, You know, yeah, I believe that every life is valuable. But if somebody tries to hurt my wife, I'm going to hurt that person. So that in and of itself is morally ambiguous. Right. You can't— I mean, life is life. You can't treat— you can't treat two people different just because you have an emotional investment in one person that you don't have in someone else. If you're really comparing them life to life, that's— you have an ambiguous situation there. It gets even harder when you are put in a position where your job is to protect something like a national identity or a national construct. CIA officers are there to protect American freedom. So now it's not just life to life. Now it's American life over non-American life. So now it's like, if I find out that a terrorist— if I find out a child warrior, a child soldier in Kinshasa, Democratic Republic of Congo, is going to kill an American tourist in Congo, what am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to kill the child soldier that's going to kill the adult female? Am I supposed to warn the adult female and run the risk that they don't hear about the warning in time to prevent the attack? What exactly am I supposed to do, right? If I hear of a female suicide bomber who's going to strap a bomb to her chest and walk into a synagogue, what am I supposed to do? Like, who wins out here? Like, is a threat threat, and therefore they are— they no longer become a sanctified life just because they're a threat. So certain people would dwell on that question, right? I was one of those people who never dwelt. I was one of those people who was like, child soldier is going to shoot that lady, I'm going to shoot the child soldier. And I know that's going to make some people mad. I know some people listening are going to think that I'm a jerk or an asshole or whatever else, pardon my language. But that's the way it is. Like, I'm being trusted with the responsibility of keeping Americans safe. I'm going to keep Americans safe. That's my job. As a parent and as a husband, that's my job to keep my family safe. I don't think twice before I do it. It's just, it's the nature of the beast. I don't really— I can't say that I woke up to it as much as I can say the CIA put me in situations where I had to make those rapid, fast decisions. And I realized that they didn't keep me up late at night. I just did what I had to do.

And I think that's really the driving point of where I wanted you to end up. So I don't know if I intentionally led you there, but it's— but as I'm reflecting back, and I've had, you know, after, after high school, I spent 2 years in Israel. So you're just talking about a, you know, suicide bombing in a synagogue. And we just had that in Texas, where we had the person who came into the synagogue in Texas, and there was the Pittsburgh shootings and other stuff that, you know, in my community, we always have to be especially mindful of. And in South Florida, right, they all have a lot of— most of the synagogues here have security, even on the— especially on the Sabbath and the holidays. But I had friends of mine who were already in the— they're Americans, they went over to Israel and they spent time there. And then they eventually enrolled in the Israeli Army. And I never at 18, 19, 20 years old, that the, you know, the 2 to 3 years that I was there after high school, I couldn't even imagine myself in that role. And when you said like, I would be up at night, God forbid, thinking like, what would that be like to have to make those decisions and have to live with those decisions? And then having friends who like still to this day, shout out Ben Goldstein, he's doing some amazing stuff in Israel and fundraising to help support things that the soldiers aren't getting to keep them safe and protecting certain areas that he's built differently. His mindset is different. And it's not right or not wrong. And, and I see this when people are deciding, right? And that's why like, you know, if you're going into the CIA or someone, because becomes an attorney, or me becoming a therapist, and someone wants to be— whatever it is that we, that we do have predispositions that we can leverage. We have to honor our weaknesses, figure out what our strengths are. But it's interesting that there are certain things, like you said, like they knew to look out for certain things that would make it beneficial for a person to join this community.

Yeah, exactly. And everybody knows— I mean, it's, it's a, it's one of those worst-kept secret type things. That CIA has a very robust intellectual and psychological battery that new recruits go through. They're not, they're not running us through a psychological exam to see whether or not we're crazy. That's Bush League stuff. They're, they already know we're not crazy before they ever offer us an invitation. They know we're not crazy. They're running us through that psychological battery so they can find exactly how we're wired and plug us into the type of role that we are best suited to contribute to. Now, make no mistake, CIA and FBI and NSA and the military, they're not there to give you a good life. They're there to find the American citizens that are wired best to protect American ideals. So they didn't care about Andrew Bustamante, right? They just cared that I was wired a certain way that they needed at the time. And I was the right age and the right health and whatever else. So, I mean, they also exercise the same moral flexibility, the same moral ambiguity that they hire us, that they use when they hire us. Right. They don't need to be wedded to us as individuals. We're disposable resources. And that's— every soldier out there knows it. That's what we're being paid. That's what we're being trained to do, to, to if it comes to it, trade our life in exchange for protecting American ideals, American freedom. And that's also something that's hard to palate whenever the time comes that you realize that you're a disposable resource. It's not something they lead with in the interview meeting.

Correct. And I'm going back to before I became a therapist and I was working in a nonprofit organization. So it's interesting that you're saying this in that context, because that's the world that you were living in. And I'm now relating it to anybody who works for corporate America, anybody who works for any type of job where they don't have any level of either A, ownership stake and influence on the decisions and outcomes of that company business, or B, they're not getting incentivized within the system, even if they don't have that, the more you bring into it, the more you're gonna get out of it. But I also remember a story where, I was working at this nonprofit community agency, and the day that I realized me, even though I was on the executive team of this nonprofit, that me and the janitor were equally disposable and replaceable. So interesting that in that context that you're sharing it from that perspective, but they had their mission, and if they could have found somebody cheaper to do my job, they would have. And but it wouldn't have been cheaper. And I also don't even know what the gender of the, you know, of the whole complex was getting paid. He might have been getting paid more than me, which is really interesting thing now that I'm asking myself, right? And you would think with status and training and whatever it would be, that would— I would be commiserate with higher pay, but maybe not. But it was interchangeable for plug and play. So it's really interesting that you're, you know, in the context of where you're coming from, that it is for the mission, it is for the ideals. And yes, we have X, whatever, 100 million people in this country compared to other countries that don't have 100 million people. But where you maybe get the opportunity— you said, you know, the idea of it doesn't mean you're necessarily gonna have a good life. But I wonder, and this is, I guess, the split psychologically of people who are in alignment with all of those ideals of the mission of a, you know, service versus the people who have interest and curiosity and passion and think it's cool or sexy or whatever, and then start falling out of the ideal of alignment with that.

Yeah. So it's funny that you, you kind of go down this road. There's— there was an aha moment for me, but the aha moment had nothing to do with, with morality, right? The aha moment was when one of the first things— I was a, I was a covert field officer. That's what CIA hired me to do. And that's how they trained me. You know, that's, that's the exciting stuff that you see in the shows. You go to the farm, you live in a make-believe place, you don disguises and you work in alias identities and you travel, you know, doing awesome things as people that aren't real. When one of the first things they train you to do is to recognize the truth about how human beings interact. And the truth, whether, you know, we were talking about passionate people or people who have alignment that doesn't quite fit, whatever else, the truth doesn't go well with everybody. There are plenty of people who reject the truth when they hear it, and there are plenty of people who will reject this truth when they hear it. But all human relationships are transactional. That's what they are at their core. They're a transaction. If you are engaged in a transaction where you don't get something of value, that's the— that's how you end up not staying in a relationship. If you are in a relationship where you feel like you are transacting and getting more than what you give, then that's the relationship that you invest in and you stay in. Right. It's built into our very core beings because it was a survival instinct back when we were very, you know, when we were a new— a newly formed race of human beings. That was how you survived. Nobody would go hunting for the gigantic, you know, woolly mammoth that you would only, you know, catch once a year because they know you'd starve to death. They would invest in hunting like, you know, critters and little rodents or whatever else you could catch quickly. That's just evolved now into the same thing in human relationships. And once you understand that context of human relationships, that everything's transactional, the next logical step is to start to manipulate the transaction. Whether it's, whether it's in the workplace. That's what we do now. Like my company, Everyday Spy, teaches people the truth of human relationships and how to leverage those human relationships in a way that maximizes the transaction in your favor at work, in business, in personal relationships, in familial relationships, whatever it might be. Because you start to recognize that if you can invest in a relationship that brings you exponential benefit. If you do that in a way that brings the other person exponential benefit also, then everybody involved in the relationship, just their, their opportunity increases, right? Their net wealth increases, their collaborative— their collaboration, their happiness, it all just goes through the roof. And that's what CIA taught us how to do, was to maximize collaboration, maximize human relationships for, for either the purpose of improving operational success in the field or improving success, collecting intelligence against a target. That's— it all boils down to human relationships. It all boils down to transaction. That's the facts of it.

So using the word target, right, and I would take it— a target in that context would be a negative, right? That, that thing is a negative that has to be eliminated, right? Would probably be the one of the technical terms versus a target that we have in our day-to-day life that could become a goal, that could become something we want to accomplish. How can we look at that? How can— so someone who's listening to this, and they're right, they're driving along and listening to our conversation, and saying like, there's something that's in their life that needs to be different, a target. And how do they first identify what that is? And how do they, you know, usually we go into binary thinking where we got to move the rock, versus what are the 50,000 ways we can get around it, right? I remember funny the second reference to Israel.

My—

the school that I went to for the 2 years that I was there was on the top of this mountain, hill, I don't know, hill, mountain, whatever you want to call it. And so when you go into the front of the building, it's on the top, top, top of that hill. But when you go out of the kitchen, you're down a layer, as you know, as you go around the circle of the— going down the road, it was a layer down, like, like, you know, and guys in the middle of the night used to sneak into the kitchen to try to take like, you know, some hummus and some, you know, whatever, mayonnaise and ketchup and whatever else they can, you know, schnitzel from the kitchen. And I remember the head of the school pulled everybody aside and he's like, don't defeat the purpose of the lock. I don't care if you can climb under the foot, the 6 inches, you know, if you can limbo under it or you can climb over it, don't defeat the purpose of a lock.

Thanks.

There is a sign. So I'm wondering like, how can we start thinking differently, like about a target impractical application of how you would maybe start using this when you're working with people of, you see this thing as a negative, bad thing, but here's what you can do with that.

Correct. So that's, uh, there's a couple different ways, right? So first, you, you aren't incorrect in your terminology, right? Some tar— there's all— targets are negative. Targets are not positive things in, in our, in our terminology. Targets are bad guys like terrorists. Targets are information sources because they're like the enemy president or the enemy general. They're not positive things. They're things that threaten us. They're things that threaten our objectives, our ambitions as a nation, as an intelligence service, whatever else. And the same thing is true in everyday life. A target is something that threatens your success, your ambition, your goals. That target can always be flipped into something productive rather than something destructive. So for example, if you're trying to live a long, healthy life, gaining weight is destructive. So you've got to turn that into something productive. So the target no longer becomes, I need to lose weight. The target becomes, I need to gain fitness. I need to get in shape. When you treat a target like it's negative, you build a relationship with the target that is equally as destructive as the target itself. So one of the things that was always very interesting to me was anytime I had to target a terrorist. When you're talking to a terrorist, when you're negotiating terms of payment or transactional exchanges of information with a terrorist, it's very easy to go home and feel like you're a scumbag. Right? Like, as a very simple example, many of the terrorists that we've come into contact with are pedophiles, and their addiction, their need, is something in that pedophilia realm. Well, if a terrorist is a pedophile and they're trying to gain access to some pedophile website in Europe, right, if we have the means to help them gain that access, we have the ability to give them a connection from the middle of unknown Pakistan to the internet, and they use that to connect to some server that's outside of the United States, right? Do you give them that access in exchange for terrorist information that keeps American lives safe? Morally ambiguous, morally difficult question, right? However, no matter where you land on the moral scale, when you're having that conversation with a ISIS member, you feel like a dirtbag unless you choose to look at it a different way, right? I'm not helping a dirtbag do dirty things. I'm in contact with a, with a threat to America that if I can control this threat, I can turn it into something positive. I can keep hundreds of American lives safe. I can keep soldiers safe who are operating against ISIS. I can keep allied members safe British and Australians who are also operating against ISIS in this region. Right. Oh, there's so much positive that can come when you reframe the target from something negative to something positive. The same thing happens in your everyday life. I need a new job. No, your job is not the problem. You want to make more money. What skills inventory do you have that can help you make more money? I need to lose weight. No, you don't need to lose weight. You need to gain more fitness. You need to improve your endurance. You need to improve your cardiovascular health. You need to improve your diet, right? It's not— gaining weight is not the problem. Your low-paying job is not the problem. You're having fights with your spouse. Your spouse is not the problem, right? You're not— your spouse isn't someone you need to divorce. What you need to do is find a way to communicate in a way that helps you rediscover the person that you fell in love with in the beginning, right? Every target can be flipped on its head to turn into something productive. Then you don't feel like a scumbag every night you go to bed with the woman that you fight with. You don't feel like a scumbag every time you collect your 2-week paycheck and it's less than you expected. You don't feel like a scumbag when you look at yourself in the mirror and you see a few extra pounds around your waist.

Correct. And I see that on a day-to-day basis with my therapy process with my clients, or my coaching process, is the problem isn't the problem, it's your belief about the problem that's the problem. So it's not that issue X is what we have to address, It's your beliefs and meanings and values behind what supports issue X being a problem. And if we can change that, that's really where the magic starts to happen. And a lot of times that people come in like, well, this is the issue and this is the issue. I'm like, that's really not, but that's what you've been believing and leaning into for X amount of years. And I know in the world of hypnosis and Milton Erickson or Ericksonian hypnosis, one of my professors once gave an example of when people want to become a person who no longer uses a tobacco product. What are those people typically called when you decide you no longer want to use tobacco products? Yeah, they're called— what's your first guess?

Quitter.

Yeah, right. Or not. Well, they're non-smokers, right?

Yeah, non-smokers.

So, and think about in the last— wait, since America became, uh, the laws were established that public places and restaurants and certain things where you were no longer to to do that, they became non-smoking establishments. Establishments. And previous to that, when you got on to a restaurant back in the day, what were your options? Where do you want to sit? Do you want to sit in a smoking or non-smoking section?

Yeah.

Which— how did smoking become the powerful dominant main context and non-smoking was the weaker non-dominant context?

Yeah, it's, it's a great point. It's a great point. I've heard a similar point made when it comes to, uh, to nonprofit work and donating money, right? Why is it that, why is it that when you are wealthy and you make a donation, you're giving back? Are you giving back because the, in the, you know, it's insinuating that at some point you took what wasn't yours? How did it become the giving back was suddenly more honorable than just being charitable, right?

Versus it being a great way to have a tax write-off for— right, and feel good about, about that in that regard. And that's, that's why I do love the idea of like conscious capitalism and doing really good things and making, you know, living and helping more people accomplish things through a mission and a purpose. But I love that because especially when I'm helping people figure things out, it's— the professor went on and say, well, there's a difference. Why don't we start calling things— well, you can be You can be a lung polluter or clean air breather. Right? So as opposed to smoking and non-smoking, again, why did smoking become the dominant, like, and non-smoking became the, you know, I'm sorry, it became the non-dominant, but like, why not like shift your paradigm the way you're talking about of like, no, it's not about smoke, because even if you quit, even if you're no longer doing it, your whole identity is still in relationship to not doing that.

Right? Exactly.

I'm a non-drinker. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a non-whatever, right? So your identity is still bound up and wound up, you know, to this, this link. And I wonder when we start thinking about goals, when we start thinking about habits, when we start thinking about successful mindset, the languaging alone is one of the most powerful things that we have to recategorize, redefine, reuse different words that we've ever used before that are more expansive than leading us back to the same negative outcome that we're afraid of falling back into.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's, it's interesting because I don't know how you'll react to this kind of, you know, lesson that we were also taught. But one of the core elements that we're taught when we go through the agency training and when we, when we execute our operations in the world, it's that not everybody's equal. I get it. Everybody wants to be equal. And we say we want equality when in fact we don't want equality. What people want is fairness. They want fairness of opportunity. Equity. Yeah. Like, I am not ever going to be white-skinned. I am never going to be Black-skinned. I am never going to be a woman. I am never going to be gay. I don't want to be equal with things that I'm not. I just want a fair opportunity across all the different sub-divides. I want fair opportunity against someone who has more education than me and fair opportunity against someone who has less education than me. What we really want is fairness. But the reason I bring that up is because we talk about people— in my world, we talk about people as inherently unequal, which also means they are not equal in terms of the return on investment in the transaction of human relationships. And the general disbursement is something we call the 80/20 rule. I'm sure you've heard of the 80/20 rule, right? Of 100% of people that you'll meet in your life, 80% of them are not going to be worth what you put into them. 20% will be a return on investment. Right. So everything we do in human operations, in intelligence work, and even now in business, we ruthlessly try to find the 20% that yield a return. And we try to limit the losses of the 80% that will not. So what— in business, what I teach a lot of my business folks is, hey, look, Recognize that 100% of the people your business touches, 80% of who your business touches, they're never going to buy from you. So if you're spending ad money, if you're spending time shaking hands and high-fiving and having free consultations with the 80% that will never buy, you're wasting your efforts, you're wasting your time, you're wasting your resources. Instead, find a way to intentionally target the 20% that will buy and then hyper-invest in the 20%. Because even that 20% will break into another 80/20. 20% of people who buy from you, 80% will only buy from you once. 20% will buy from you multiple times. Right. So it's really a fascinating concept to apply outside of CIA to my personal life, to the personal life of my contacts, my peers, my clients, to my professional life and the professional life of my clients and my peers and my colleagues. And it's just, it's a different paradigm that a lot of people are uncomfortable with. Because they, they still think incorrectly that what we want is equality. Everybody should be worth my time. No, I'm sorry, they're not.

Everybody has worth in their own unique way, but it doesn't mean that you have to be that person doing that or connecting with that. And I love seeing this, especially from my therapist, right? Like, I have to work this many hours, or I can only charge this much because I have to help. Well, why does it have to be you?

Yep.

Are you the absolute best person to be getting in front of this person versus is there someone else who's better to serve that and let them have it? It doesn't all have to be chaos. And, and, and that ties into, um, Dr. Patrick Gentempo wrote a book called Your Stand Is Your Brand. And it really is about putting out your line in the sand with your brand, with your identity, with this is who I am. Like, literally just present, this is who I am. You don't need to find out. I'm going to tell you exactly what I believe. I'm going to tell you exactly what my business is about. I'm going to tell you exactly who I want to work with. I'm going to tell you exactly what it costs to work with me. And you're proactively eliminating that 80%. So I remember there was one of my business conferences that he was speaking at, and immediately I changed my website to— and I put a line in the middle of my front page of my website, and it says, if you are shopping, calling around from therapist to therapist, we're probably not for you.

Yeah, it's exactly the thing that we're all looking for. It's fairness. You are stating a very fair expectation right away. That's what we want. We don't want to be equal. A woman doesn't want to be treated like a man. A man doesn't want to be treated like a woman. An old person doesn't want to be treated like they're 7. A 7-year-old doesn't want to be treated like they're 97. What we want is fairness of opportunity and fairness of— fairness of opportunity. So when you put up front, I'm not a good fit for you if, That's fairness, right? Like, it's, it's the same thing that I've been doing it the whole time that you've been interviewing me, right? People aren't going to like what I have to say. If you don't like what I have to say, you're not going to want to talk to me. But if you're still listening to this podcast and you like what I'm saying, you're part of my 20%. So why would I— I don't want to trick 80% of people into looking at my website. Just save me the Google traffic. Just, you know, don't, don't unsubscribe from Jason but don't subscribe to—

or you could unsubscribe for me. That's okay. It's okay, right? Because there is— I mean, there's podcasts that like are philosophically not even my ideology that I listen to. There's people that I read that are not my ideology that I'm— I think that also goes back to curiosity. Oh yeah, it also goes into— right. And this is where we were maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago versus the polarization of where we are in 2022. And it's so great. And Like, so last night I was working through trying to find a resource for one of my clients about, you know, a certain psychological disorder. And I don't work in the practice through my lens of— I don't work with mental health issues. I work with the worried well, the proactive. You have to be willing to do the work. You're into integrative and alternative medicine. You're entrepreneurial-minded, even if you're not an entrepreneur, right? You're invested in lifelong personal growth. But I was trying to find a resource for someone regarding narcissistic personality disorder. I found this really good YouTube video. Here are the 14 things that are— and I'm literally, I'm like, geez, like, this is crazy. Like, how can someone not listen to this? Even if you voted for a particular person and you like the philosophies in the macro, not say that— what about the dangers? What about the dangers? And I'm not saying that there are not people like that on the other side of the political fence too. Humans are humans, and it doesn't matter which way they have an agenda. But to understand the dangerousness and to be able to be receptive to new ideas, to be receptive to opposing ideas, limits. And when you were talking about that, well, if people don't like it, they can go— and I would say to those people, well, what's so scary about hearing Andrew Wout? What's so scary about hearing Joe Rogan right now? I mean, like, I don't agree with a lot of what he says. But he also— but why? On one side, why do we have to take everything he says so seriously? And on the other side, you know, "We have to shut him down." Right, we have to shut him down. Or, you know, like, it's— and I don't agree with a lot of what he says, but that we're losing leverage by polarizing and isolating ourselves. And now we're making each other terrorists to each other. And that's just not good for humanity overall.

Yeah, it's, it is a, it's a hyperinflation of that survival instinct, right? The fight or flight. Correct. Instead of us recognizing, like, you have the ability to pick your own fight and pick when you want to run away. Instead, we've gotten into a habit of exporting that responsibility onto someone else. And, you know, a big— a very common theme that my clients bring to me is they tell me, look, Andy, I want to be in control. I want to be the one that decides. I want to be the one to take care of myself, my ambitions, my family, my needs. I don't like that information is being censored from me. I don't like that the news is incentivized to use alarmist rhetoric to get attention.

Right.

How— I don't like that.

Everywhere, on all sides.

That the world is being kind of twisted to get a predictable outcome out of me. How do I take— like, how do I bring that back into me? And it's been a fantastic place to build a business because those are all the skills that CIA gave us. CIA gave me and my wife— my wife's former CIA, too. It gave us the skills to travel the world. And no matter where we live, no matter what the information was around us, no matter what was happening, we made our own decisions— practical, operational, tactical, relational decisions. And we knew what the outcome was going to be because we could control it. We could see through the noise and kind of get to the meat of whatever was happening. And it's a sad situation, like you said, when you run into somebody who's just overwhelmed by the noise.

Yeah. And it brings me into this topic that I wasn't even thinking about asking you, because I know we want to spend some time talking about the, the myths of, you know, of real life that we're sold. And then what happens, it doesn't happen. We're gonna get there. But what you just brought me to is the idea of like, community tribalism, that, right, right, whether it's in, you know, the armed services, the armed forces, or the non-armed forces, the clandestine stuff, or communities or religions, or right, that we're, that we are by nature tribal.

Yeah.

And, and another way, and the, and maybe this does tie in to, to what we're going to go into next, but the idea that anything that is not us is dangerous or at risk or a target, right, or we're a target to them. So, so how do, from your experience, from your wisdom, how do you balance the positiveness of tribal mentality? And what are the risks of that? And how would you leverage it to mitigate the risks to make it more successful or positive?

Yeah, absolutely. So tribal— this is a fantastic topic. Tribalism is what kept human beings alive. We are, we are a group of, of creatures that our, our evolutionary advantage is our ability to commune and become a tribe, a tribe that can bring mixed talents, mixed experiences, mixed preferences all together and make a whole that's stronger and more productive than we are as individuals. So we are tribal by nature. The risk, the, you know, in terms of the Reader's Digest definition, the tribalism is the benefit because it brings all these, like, these different strengths and talents to the table to serve one larger group. The risk is when we start to define our tribe based off of observable behaviors or observable, um, character traits or characteristics. We're not a tribe because we are all men. We're not a tribe because we're all from the Dominican Republic. We're not a tribe because we're all, you know, brown-eyed. That's not what makes us a tribe. Psychography is what makes you a tribe. We are all, you know, idealists, and we believe in a future where we can make a better outcome for our children by dedicating ourselves to their education. That's what makes a strong tribe, right? It's, it's an ideology It's a psychography that shows that there is some set of values that we have in common. Now, the, the— what has happened is that our tribalism has been manifested with strong polarized messages. The vast majority of people out there don't believe in the far left or in the far right message. But they have no alternative to follow. There aren't enough reasonable voices just left of center, just right of center. Those voices don't exist, or they're muted. They're muted because they're not interesting. They're muted because there's no financial incentive for media to maximize those voices. So you just don't hear of those other options. If I sent you to the grocery store and told you to buy milk, and there was a giant stack of skim milk, and a giant stack of whole milk, you would think there's only two types of milk, right? So what we have to do is we have to like, no, there's actually oat milk and almond milk and, you know, soy milk and 2% milk and whatever else and lactose-free milk, right?

And that milk isn't just from an animal, right? That's— we're expanding the definition.

Exactly right. So that— so it's hard because we instinctually, we want tribes, and tribes are a good thing. That's what makes us better. It's what makes us stronger. How much stronger would a tribe be if it included people from all the diverse opinions that are out there? That's, that's what the United States, the great American experiment, was supposed to be, right? Let's bring all these very different groups together and let us come to a consensus, even though it's going to take time, it's going to be ugly, and whatever else. That's going to make us stronger than a single king or a single totalitarian ruler making the decisions for everyone until that totalitarian ruler is either overruled or dies and replaced by someone else.

Yeah, meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Yeah, but that's— I mean, both are tribes, right? One is a tribe that's based on psychography, and the other is a tribe that's based on family name or lineage or, you know, wealth or whatever else, status, right?

And there is— I mean, is there something that— so I went to my first my first therapist in-person continuing education training in years. So every 2 years, I have to do a certain amount of CEUs, continuing education, to keep my licensure up in, in Florida and other states that I'm licensed in now. And I did my first one in person that was not just to get the job done, right, not just to keep my credits up. And for the last many years, I've been doing— most of my focus has been outside of the traditional therapy world, this integrative and alternative medicine and functional nutrition you know, mind-body healing stuff where my community is majority chiropractors and acupuncturists and people who are licensed in those type of fields that have a different, you know, philosophy of more also in alignment with the way I was trained as a marriage and family therapist. It's much more systemic versus pathology diagnosis-based, but it's a rabbit hole. So when I'm, you know, so it's my joke has been like, I don't even do therapy trainings anymore because I've go and evolved into a different tribe, into a different way of mindset, that I wasn't getting satisfaction, or finding connection with people in the community that originally— that I originally sprouted from. And now finally, I'm seeing like, oh, so there is a teaching on psychedelics and mental health. Oh, there is a training that I can do on integrative nutrition for mental health practitioners. Oh, they're finally catching up to where I already am. Let me just do that as a cover my ass, you know, for continuing education. God forbid something ever happens, right? But as a CYA technique, Even though I already know all this stuff. So it becomes like a full loop. But sometimes, like, we're taking this initiative, like you're doing, right, to do what you're doing after you leave. And we're going to jump into that now, with the transition into the real world, so to speak, being a muggle, as they would say, in Harry Potter land, right. But knowing that, in a way, I had this non-realized judgment of even people I went to graduate you know, my philosophy, not people I went to graduate school with, where I loved it. I'm like, wow, we think so differently than other therapists. And now I jumped into this other community, I'm like, oh my god, we think so differently than everybody, where I started becoming critical and judgmental. And I had to reorient myself back to that, of saying, hmm, like, that didn't work. That didn't feel good. Because they're all doing good things out there.

Right?

Right. And so it's hard to let go of that.

It's hard to let go of the position of criticism. Be, um, it's a, it's a concept we call in the intelligence world perception versus perspective, right? Perception is something that belongs to you. In your perception, somebody is less than you. In your perception, something is popular and something is not. Perspective is much different. Perspective means you, you gather information from multiple points of view and you look at things from, with more data and more experience and, and a wider range of input points, right? When you have pers— when you have perspective, you immediately have an advantage over everyone who's operating from a point of limited perception.

And I think that's what I realized coming out of that training, which was an amazing training, but it was a skill set, but it wasn't a, uh, community. It wasn't like, we're here to build— like, in other words, this is one vertical. It's not a macro, it's a micro, right? It's a It's a way of doing something differently when it applies to working with couples. But it didn't— but it wasn't a community, right? It wasn't like, and here's what else we believe in, here's what else we believe in, here's what else we believe in, here's our values, and here's our— and if you're in alignment with that, now we have culture around that. And I realized for me, culture of something, like you were talking about before, is incredibly important for me as a human, incredibly important for me as a as a healing practitioner, as an entrepreneur, that the culture is equally important to not just the skillset. I can get a skillset online. I can get a skillset talking to you. I can get, right? But then the culture is what happens after that. And it's interesting. So what happened after that? What happened after the CIA? The stuff that like people talk about, they're like, oh, this is going to be great. Getting married, going to be great. Kevin, kids gonna be great, living in the real world's gonna be great. What was that stark difference and things that you learned and things that you've had to deal with since then?

Yeah, so I think, I think like a lot of people, you know, you, you are tempted to leave one place thinking that the grass is greener on the other side, thinking that everything is going to be better, thinking that everything is going to be, you know, different. And then what oftentimes happens to you is you jump in on that other side with this unrealistically high expectation of optimism. Like, oh, the money's just gonna roll in because I opened a business. Like, uh, my wife is forever gonna be like, you know, doting over me because, you know, I put a ring on her finger. My children are going to wake up every morning wanting to hug and cuddle with me because I am their loving father, right? And you start to think these things in your, in your mind's eye. And when you seek counsel from others, you talk to other business owners, you talk to, you talk to successful business owners, because guess what? You don't ask your opinion. You don't ask the opinion of people who have failed in business. You ask the opinion of people who have succeeded. You don't ask the opinion of divorcees when it comes to marriage. You talk to people who are married. You don't talk to people who have no kids when you want to talk about kids. You talk to people who have kids. So You're limiting your information to people who you want to hear from, and then you're falling into this echo chamber where they're giving you the information that you're trying to get.

Confirmation bias. That's what confirmation bias is.

Exactly. Business owner, tell me how you started your business. And the business owner is like, well, I started my business doing this. If you don't ask him, like, what was the biggest mistake? When did you lose the most money? If you don't ask him that question, he's not going to give you that answer.

Yeah.

Same thing happens when you're like, you know, hey, what's pregnancy like? If a woman asks another woman, what's pregnancy like? It's very unlikely that the answer the pregnant woman or the experienced woman is going to give is she's going to say, oh, well, you're going to start peeing your pants and you're not going to sleep very well. And life's pretty miserable. That's not what she's going to say because she knows that's not what the other woman wants to hear. She's going to say, oh, it's amazing. And you've got this little life inside you and like you feel them kicking and it's a miracle that life is happening. And then what ends up happening is you know, over months of having that positive echo chamber, then you start to build that same unrealistic optimism and life slaps you in the face when reality hits.

Yeah.

And I realized that in hindsight, as we had kids and as we got— my wife and I were married and as we started our own business, we were learning the lessons the hard way because we didn't have a network of people who were telling us the hard truths. So now But without those hard truths, you're learning from the school of hard knocks on your own. You're learning from books and sources that have been indexed as complete and accurate instead of just biased opinions from people. And it's a reminder that the same stuff we learned at CIA about transactional relationships is still very much the way the world works. Yeah. So it's just once you learn that lesson, You know, we turned it into a business. We turned it into a business to say, hey, every relationship is transactional. Let's return more value than what we ask for. And that's going to bring people coming back to us and we can keep giving more value and they can keep exchanging, you know, whether it's buying a product or giving us a like on Facebook or, you know, listening to our podcast, whatever it is, people are exchanging value with us for the value we are giving them. And that's been, that's been super valuable. It works out in our business, in our marriage, as we raise our children, as we travel the world and homeschool. It's— that's just been a fantastic truth for us.

And it's interesting when you said like, what's pregnancy like, or what's building a business like, the one word that screamed at me in my head that could be asked differently is, what was it like for you during your pregnancy, right? Because we have this macro-micro dance. Of course we always want to present the— if we're generally you know, want to be favorable and likable. So therefore, we're not going to go into, well, let me tell you, I did shit my pants every, you know, 2 days, and I peed everywhere whenever I laughed for the next 10 years after I had my child, right? I had to go get that adjusted. Every few months, I have to go back to the doctor to get everything tightened up, right? No one's gonna like— right, that's not favorable in someone else's eyes, versus asking someone, what was your experience like? And then adding the questions like you said, and what was the most difficult thing? What What was the most challenging thing? And it's funny that I remember sitting on a panel years ago for the local Broward Association of Marriage and Family Therapy, and it was on a private practice thing. And they were talking about the 6-figure practice. That was a big deal. The 6-figure practice, $100,000 a year as a therapist. And they were talking about like, here's what you do in here. And I'm like, if we have a 6-figure, if you're making 6 figures as a therapist, that means you're not bringing home 6 figures as a therapist. Your business is making 6 figures, you're making after taxes and after the way you want to write stuff off. So you're not paying all the crazy taxes, you're making $35,000 a year, $40,000 a year. You have to do your case notes, and you have to do this, and you have to do your liability and your continuing education. Get a job at Starbucks and make the same stuff.

Yeah, right.

You want to talk to people all day?

Yeah, right.

So it's context of everything of— and that's when I realized, I'm like, wow, I really don't want to get business advice from people in my own field. If that's the mindset of we got to have the 6-figure business, but really, it's what can we do to offset, you know, and really only end up with $30,000 a year. And I'm not saying everybody's like that. But there was that, that old school idea, that old school mentality where now, about a month ago, I have a buddy of mine. He's been on a previous episode, Matt Manero, and he owns an incredible company, incredible, incredible company that he started in his 2-bedroom apartment. And it's in fleet financing for big rigs and trucking, and it's radically successful. And I put everything. I put my financials down on an email, stripped freaking naked financially, and I said, where am I? How am I doing? What do I need to do next? But I'm not going to do that to anybody else in my field kind of playing in the same levels that I'm playing at. I want someone who's doing 50, 80, 100 times, probably more, 1,000 times better than me, right?

Right. Those are the people you learn from, right?

That's the people, right? So I feel like we have to learn to ask different questions than what we're typically asking. Like you just said, that phraseology of, right? And so when you're working with people, like what would be, you know, in that example, right? So if you're talking about parenting, you're talking about family, you're talking about business, what are some of the other maybe myths that you're trying to bust in a healthy way to get them to see differently so they can become more successful?

Yeah. So a big one. So the biggest one is the transactional relationship piece. If if you can understand that relationships are transactions, then you understand that life is relationships. Then you understand that life is transactions. Then it's about understanding what is a transaction that is of value to a person. What you value is not the same thing as what I value. What two strangers that we meet today at the grocery store, they're not going to value the same thing. So there's a, there's a methodology to actually assess and understand what people value differently just based on how you talk to them, how they carry themselves. Right. You can observe somebody for, for 10 minutes or 10 hours and you'll start to collect information, collect intelligence that helps you determine what they actually value. And then once you understand what they value, you understand how to frame your transaction. So a lot of that has to do with that idea of perception and perspective. If you go into a conversation thinking about yourself, you're completely blind to what the other person values. If you go into a conversation with perspective on your mind, then you're observing the other person, right? Like, what do they— what are they wearing? How are they carrying themselves? What kinds of questions are they asking? What terminology are they using? What level of vocabulary are they using? And this is all assessment information that you can use to create another influence tool we call deliberate dialogue. Now you have all these tools. You have informational superiority over the opponent because you know that your opponent 80% of 100% of people, 80% of people are going to talk to you from a position of perception, not perspective.

Yeah, this huge grin on my face. So those of you who are not watching the video version, you're only hearing the audio, this huge grin on my face while Andy's talking, Andy's talking. And, and I got a Facebook message from someone I connected with during the pandemic. And they just got their doctorate and they're starting their private practice. And they're doing coaching with parenting. Really, really wonderful person, really, really, really wonderful person. I got a spam, "Hey, I want to talk to you, set up a time for 5 to 10 minutes," that I know went out to everybody in their network. And then I got a voice note when I woke up this morning. This person is lovely. And they're just so new to this that like, I would have done the same thing, like, hey, like, you know, I'm doing this thing. And I want to like see if there's anybody that— so you can be a referral source for me. And I listened to this at 7 o'clock in the morning. I'm like, oh, and hi, how are you? And what's going on? And tell me what's going on in your practice? And what are you looking to solve right now? And and I know we have this great— when we had this conversation, we talked about X, Y, and Z a year ago, and I've been thinking about that, right? In other words, it was, it was a very one-sided thing. So of course, like, I think this person is a lovely human being, and of course I want to think about how I can help them. And my debate is like, do I write back like, hey, can I help you recraft what you just did so you don't lose out on opportunities? Because I want to be mindful enough and loving enough to say like, if I was a little bit more of a dick, I would have just deleted your message. Yeah. And went on with my day.

It's one of those points, right? It's another point of moral ambiguity, right? Do you help the person because you feel obligated to help the person because that's who you want to feel like in your heart? Or do you judge the interaction as no benefit to you in terms of transaction and then just not help the person? Or even worse, do you reach out to the person and say, look, this is jacked up. I want to help you, but you're not worth my time unless you do something that helps me. So let's talk about how you can help me so that I can help you. Right? It's very, very difficult. There's lots of people out there who are broke and stressed and unsuccessful because they give all of their time to people who don't offer them anything in return. And then there's all these other people that we love to judge and hate and point fingers at, and media loves to criticize them because they make everything about a transaction that they can focus on their own significant financial benefit, right? What, what we're missing is that all we're looking at are the outliers. We're just looking at skim milk and whole milk. There's a whole milk section in between. Where transaction becomes healthy, capitalism becomes something that is constructive and helpful. And there's lots— there's human existence between the two polar opposites. And that's where we can all thrive. There's plenty to go around, plenty of opportunity, plenty of money, plenty of success, plenty of health, if we just learn to act as a tribe that is constructive instead of destructive. Right.

Because going back to my compassion and wanting to help and not feeling obligated, but like, I think the real reflection is where, how many times did I do that before someone guided me or called me out, or it wasn't working enough where I had to be willing to do something different?

Right.

So if this person hasn't yet had the opportunity, of course, I went into judgment mode right away, because that's what we do, right? That's our reptilian brain, a survival instinct. F them. What am I going to be? Okay, why am I going to give them time, effort, energy? But that's not who I want to be, right? So that's the pivot I had to make at whatever time it was this morning and say like, hey, like, okay, so now I want to respond to them, be like, I'm so glad you reached out to me. I know, I'm really— congratulations on your, on your new practice. And this sounds so cool. Are you open to having a conversation about the message that you sent that may not be landing well, where many people aren't— might not respond to you, many people might not be be willing to give you a referral because of the way that it's— and go in from that perspective and really offer that because, hey, here's something I've learned, here's something I heard in your message that kind of triggered me, but I want to give you this back. Not trying to sell anything, I just want to help you be more successful. So I think that's kind of where— and I keep going back to like everything day to day that we're just going through, or it's, well, I'm done with them, or right, every side, even the side that says we hate cancel culture has cancel culture. They're doing it. They did it 2 weeks ago with Maus, with the book right about the Holocaust. That was Art Spiegelman's. I don't know if you've ever seen this book. I mean, a book that I read throughout elementary school and middle school over and over again. It was actually— Art Spiegelman was a childhood Holocaust survivor, and he made a comic book that put different— the Polish community were this animal, the Nazis were this animal, and the Jews were this animal. So the whole thing is in graphic novel. About the— about his Holocaust, his family's Holocaust story. And it was just banned, I think, in Tennessee.

Wow.

And but we are anti-cancel culture, but yet we're going to cancel Ray Bradbury.

But all—

and, you know, it's, it's so interesting to see. And this is a book that I read over and over and over again, 6th grade till probably 12th. I remember doing book reports on this book willingly.

Yeah, right. And Yeah, I mean, everything that you're saying is a very solid example of perception, right? You, you remember, you can, you can, you see it, you remember it, you have these feelings tied to it, but the existence of the typical person in Tennessee is nothing like your existence, right? Right. And it's when you start to adopt some perception or some perspective over perception, now you're taking a step that 90% of people don't take. And that's what would give you an informational advantage in having a conversation with a potential client who lives in Tennessee.

Yeah. So when people go to your website, what are they finding? I mean, EverydaySpy.com, and they can go on your YouTube channel as well. And you have the awesome book, Everyday Espionage: Winning the Workplace. What are they getting? Where are they— like, I know there's Spy Hacks and there's Spy Tribe and Spy Craft, and you have your podcast. So what are, what are some of those verticals?

Yeah, every— whenever you land on the website, my, my goal is simple. My goal is just to to pour as many practical spy skills into your toolkit as quickly as possible, because everything, everything in the spy world is about practical, like recall, memorable, and beneficial. So whether you land on my Everyday Espionage podcast, if you're a podcast listener, whether you land on my website, everydayspy.com, because you are a visual learner and you want to read blog posts, or whether you go to my spy game at everydayspy.com and you see the big Spy Game banner up there because you're an experiential learner. Whatever your learning style is, I've built everything so that you can just jump in and you can start absorbing as much information in the area that you want to learn as possible. Want to learn about personal protection? I have a whole section of blog posts for that. You want to learn about spy skills specifically because you want to be a human professional intelligence officer? Go ahead and take the SPY game, right? That's the objective. Because my goal is in a transactional relationship, if I pour as much as I have and I give it to you, the people that it helps, those are going to be the people who come back and say, I trust you, Andy. I want to learn more from you. I want to use the skills that you've taught me to get ahead in business or get ahead in relationships, get ahead in, in life. And I, and I trust that these skills work because the free stuff you gave me I used it and it worked. That's, that's what the whole— that's the game. The game is an 80/20 game. 80% of people who hit my website, they're not going to read it. If they read it, they don't apply it, whatever. They can— that's dead traffic to me. It's the 20% that hit it, learn something new, apply it, and see it work. That's who I'm investing in. And I have no problem with that. I don't, I don't obsess with metrics. I don't obsess with downloads. Because, you know, when you start subtracting 80% of all of your success as wasted, it's not very encouraging, the number that's left.

So if someone is the 20%, what's the next step for them?

So there's lots of options. So if someone is the 20%, then they get to choose whether they want to go down a path of self-guided training. And I've got a number of master courses, I've got ebooks, I've got free reports, and they get to go down that road through my shop page or through my newsletter, through my podcast, and they'll get introduced to all sorts of digital self-serving, self-service, you know, training. Or if they want to go through the experiential model, then I have live events that they'll also be introduced to through the podcast, through my newsletter, where as I host events around the country or around the world, they'll get invitations to be one of the first to book a spot. I'm actually hosting 3 events in the next 5 days because February is a very busy month for me generally. It's just the weather's great in Florida, people are looking for an escape from the north, and what better way to spend a day than come be a spy with me, right? We teach you spy skills and how to apply them in everyday life, how to apply them to get your business ahead, to how to use surveillance skills to keep your family safe or to, to stay one step ahead of the competition in the marketplace. You know, people can really really invest in themselves by coming to participate in my live experiential events because they basically take 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 8 weeks of training that I had at the farm and they condense it into 2 days, right? And you walk away with a completely different life, a whole different point of view that you never thought existed.

Incredible, incredible. So if you're listening and you have any inkling of this, like, as excited as I am to to do this. And, you know, I said before, I just finished watching the show Condor. For some reason, I always love these espionage and government stuff. And I'm not a conspiracy theorist. And I'm not like— I just find it so fat, the psychology behind everything I find so fascinating. So guys, everybody who's listening, right, everydayspy.com, first place to start, everything is there. It's very easy to navigate. On the website, there's all the podcast links like Andy was talking about, there's all the YouTube links, everything is there on that website. And if you found any value, there is no price of admission to listening to this show. If you found anything of value, please, please, please go online, especially on Apple, and leave us a positive review. If you really enjoyed what Andy was saying, go on his podcast and go on Apple iTunes and leave a positive review. Hey, I heard you on Jason's You Winning Life podcast. Even there. And that would bring so much value in return just for 45 seconds of taking that effort. And, you know, if you found it— or share this episode with someone who you think this would be super cool with. So, Andy, oh man, there's so much more we can talk about. And so much— yeah, I'm hoping that there could be a round 2 in the future of, of now going into the day-to-day of like, right, here's the stuff you did, and then going more into like, okay, so now I'm a dad, and now I'm a husband, and now I'm like— I really want to hear like more of those tangible type that we just started dabbling into. But I want to leave a little bit of a teaser for people out there so they can get more from you, from your website as well, and from what you're having to offer in the world. But thank you so much for the time today.

Yeah, my pleasure, Jason. I would be happy to come back for a round 2. Anything we can do to enrich and educate others is really what, what leaves a legacy that's worth leaving. So yeah, that's what we're— that's what you're here for. That's what I'm here for. Let's do it.

Love it. All right, y'all, see you in the next episode.

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