Ep. 139: Not F*ing Around with Jeff Leisawitz

Today's guest is Jeff Leisowitz, who burns with a mission to inspire humans with a heartbeat and every flavor of creative to live their gifts and create meaningful lives of purpose, success, connection, and creativity. As an award-winning musician, producer, college song professor, critically acclaimed author distributor, filmmaker, and internationally in-demand coach for creatives, Jeff has devoted his life to creativity. At its best, creativity is a way for us to be seen, expressed, and connected, as he says. Within this philosophy as a guiding principle, he has helped empower countless people to tap deeply into their creative hearts to live richer, more fuller lives. His book Not Effing Around: The No BS Guide for Getting Your Creative Dreams Off the Ground is Jeff's first book. All right, everybody, welcome back. Yet another episode of the You Winning Life podcast. And we're gonna get into the no bullshit of getting your creative dreams off the ground. What's keeping you limited? What's keeping you stuck? Decision-making, success, courage, all the cool stuff that I'm so excited to be talking about with you, Jeff. So thanks for hanging out with us today.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

My pleasure. So right off the bat, like, when did you absolutely know that this was your purpose, your mission, your calling? I want to start with that. And then we're going to go from there into like what the heck you do with all of your purpose, your mission, and your calling.

Exactly. I think it has been any— I don't think there was a specific moment. I think it has always been and probably always will be. An evolving concept, right? When I was a little kid, I, I was certainly very creative, and I was always very into like sort of being a cheerleader type, right? But I had no idea, you know, that was, you know, gonna lead me to where it's led me to. And over the years, you know, I've done music and screenwriting and film and writing and photography and all this kind of stuff. So that comes in, and then teaching comes in. I teach songwriting at a college, you know, the music career, you know, so all the creative stuff happens. And then I got into NLP, neuro-linguistic repatterning, because that— I had an experience with that when I was young that sort of saved my life, as far as I can tell. Um, and it just kind of evolved. So I practiced that for a while. And then it kind of got into this coaching. And now I'm getting into speaking gigs. You know, it's just like, you just, you just keep driving.

Yeah, it sounds like everything is an amplification of the previous thing before. And there's momentum with that. And that's something I talk a lot about with my clients is that we have momentum in either one way or another, the momentum either is either pulling you away from who you can be and your purpose and your mission, your core values, or you're amplifying that based on a set of, I know what I'm here to accomplish. And here are the guidelines, right? Core values that are going to say yes or no along that decision-making.

Exactly. And beautifully put, concisely put it. That is true. We are always stepping forward, whether we like it or not. That's called life. And then the question is, we got to go to the light or the dark, you know? Yeah.

Well, how does someone sift and sort through that? Right? I know one of the things that I'm having with one of my clients is, you you and I were talking about something you were working on with one of your clients is, right, they have a belief, whether it's, uh, actually theirs, they have a story, right? And we know that beliefs come from stories, um, and values that maybe are put upon us— culture, family, religion, gender hierarchy stuff, all that stuff. And, and they're really struggling with what they thought they were supposed to be doing in their life in a very specific, very niche way. And they're finding out that after 10 years it's just not happening for them, and they're really struggling with that. And it comes with a lot of pain, and there's actually a lot of depression involved. So what would be some— let's— if we unpackage that, like, what would be some of the, the, the differentiation in order, one, not to get stuck there in the first place, but if someone is stuck there, like, I thought that this was what it was going to be, right?

Well, first of all, I think Most people have all kinds of concepts, you know, when they're young, whether they're conscious of it or not. Here's what life should be. I'm gonna do this and make this money and marry this person and all these things. And, you know, as we live life, we find out, hmm, maybe some of this went down right, right? Some of it, some, but probably most of it doesn't. And that's okay, right? I think the trick is understanding that holding on to ideas about what the way things should be— again, based on what you said, um, beliefs and stories based on culture, family, marketing techniques, media, all that kind of stuff— is only going to cause you pain. Right, so what can we do? We can center ourselves, uh, know our values. Like that, as you said, that's extremely important. You have to know who you are, like what's really driving your thing, right? And then take a look at your world. What are your skills? What do you want to do, right? And maybe it wasn't the thing before. I mean, for me personally, like ever since I turned on to music as a little kid, I wanted to be a rock star full on, you know. You know, I was 15 years old and the parents were like, what do you want to be when you grow up? I'm like, rock star, duh, right? And I tried really, really hard and I had some, you know, successes and all this winning awards and all this kind of stuff, but I did not make it anywhere near where I was shooting for. And in my 30s, I had to take a look at this and be like, it's— I have to let this go because it's too much struggle and too much pain, and it's not working. And that was a death, and, and it was very painful. I mean, it was, it was very painful. And then it opened me up to like, wow, songwriting teacher. Never considered that. Wow, I love this. I get to hang out with 20-year-olds and help them rock, right?

Yeah.

So we just have to sort of be open to the flow of life.

Well, I think that's it. We become so myopic in how and what should be that we no longer sift and sort through all of the possibilities that could And that's where I think the pain and the suffering comes from, right? And we create that, which, you know, and we create that based on those beliefs, assumptions, expectations. And one of my jobs, one of your jobs, right, as a coach, is to help us, you know, tease that apart of all of the infinite possibilities that could be there if we didn't like just firmly hold that tight white-knuckle grip on things. And it's hard because you write NLP, right? All the neurological side of things is that we actually get conditioned. Our brain actually forms pathways that are becoming like the grooves in a record that the needle will never, never jump out of that. So, so tying into unprogramming, deprogramming, and reprogramming, or right, this— what is it? The, the past pathways that wire together fire together. But if we want to change that, what would be some of the exercises or some of the thought processes that you would challenge someone you're working with to, to start changing that, whether it's through NLP, whether it's some of the other thought processes?

So the biggest thing in, in my experience is really quite simple yet also difficult, and that is consciousness, expanding consciousness. So a way to do that is through meditation, like a meditation practice. It's not gonna, you know, change your world if you do it once for 5 minutes, just like going to the gym and, you know, you don't get abs the first time you go to the gym, or the 10, or the 20, right? Exactly. But if you do a regular practice of this stuff, you're going to start to notice that your, your consciousness changes and opens to different kinds of possibilities. So that's one. So I recommend to everyone. Meditate in any way you can, and, you know, just research that. There's a million ways you can do it, right? Oh, I'd also suggest in there binaural beats, right? Love that stuff. And there's free apps. Binaural beats, for your listeners, if they don't know, it's a, it's a sonic technology that helps your brain, brain frequency tune to more optimal states. Yeah. Why people aren't doing this, why everyone on earth is not doing this every day, I have no idea. Right?

And it doesn't take long.

Right, exactly. And you can do it while you're working, you can do it while you're walking, you can do it all day while you're doing your dishes. So okay, so meditation is one. Another thing, possibly the best thing I learned in college, free Rapping. Okay. Freewriting. So this is taking at least 10 minutes at a time. Okay. To write, but there's rules. Okay. And I'm not exactly a big fan of rules in general, but there are actually guidelines. Guidelines. Thank you. So once you— suggestions. Thanks. So once you start, you must continue without stopping for at least 10 minutes. Okay. That's the one. Next thing is spelling doesn't count, grammar doesn't count, syntax doesn't count, none of that. So just keep writing. Okay, but here's the big one. You may not finish a thought or a sentence. What?

Yeah.

You crazy, man. Okay. So when you notice that you're getting towards a thought, you have to jump. You can use an opposite of a word, you can do stream of consciousness, consciousness. You can do synonyms. You can do anything you want except finish a thought. So what is going to happen when you do this? And by the way, let me just give you a verbal on this. Yeah, so I'm hitting here with Jason Wasser and the bacon comes around, sound on sound, things go backwards, inside out, right?

It's kind of moves forward, doesn't really make any sense, and it doesn't have to have relevancy.

No, but there is relevance.

There is, right? Of course.

Right? Right. But not logical relevancy. So here's what, here's what's going to happen for most people. You start to do this and your sort of inner critic is going to immediately show up. I'm doing it wrong.

This is stupid.

That the judger, that guy on that podcast is nuts.

Punisher.

Exactly. So there's going to be that resistance, and that is going to happen again, probably the first time and maybe 10 times in a row. But eventually what's going to happen is your inner critic, which is, you know, sort of your ego and, you know, that kind of part of you that judges, is going to let go, is going to give up, okay? Because you're just going to overpower it. What happens then your subconscious starts to stream into your conscious through your words. Okay, and again, it might not necessarily make a whole lot of sense, but this is a different kind of flow. It's a different kind of energy through your system, and you may be very surprised at what starts to pop into those words. Then they may give you ideas or, um, you know sort of hints on ways to think in the future when you're done with the exercise.

That sounds like insight.

Hey, call it insight.

I mean, yeah, if we want to get— right, if we want to get— yeah, we want to get spiritual about it.

Yeah, why not? Yeah, why not? So yeah, that is, um, that is something that I learned in college, and I, I have done it Nearly every weekday, first thing in the morning, you know, before work, since college, you know, it's been a while, let's put it that way.

Yeah. So what would you say to someone who's like, "I don't have time for that. I have my routine," or, "I don't have my routine, I just have all these other things that are chaos in my life. I have to do this, and I gotta make breakfast, or I gotta make my coffee, and I gotta get to work," or, "I gotta go sit down now," like, right? I'm working from home and doing everything via Zoom, right? That they're just loaded with excuses or loaded with justifications for why they can't.

Well, that is the first thing that they should look at. What, what are these excuses? I mean, are these excuses worth stopping you from moving forward, from rearranging, from diminishing that chaos? I mean, it makes me think of a stat that I, I learned about massage therapy. Okay. And it said something, and I'll get these numbers wrong, but doing a 1-hour massage once a week— yeah, well, it takes an hour out of your day, right? Oh my gosh, an hour, what? Right. But will increase your productivity, well-being, cognition, all the stuff, by like a lot over a long time. Yeah, essentially 1 hour kind of not doing it primes, right? It primes the pump. Exactly. Yeah. So I would say to the person who doesn't have time for this, well, first of all, I, I call it bullshit. Everybody has time for 5 minutes or 10 minutes a day, right? If you don't If you really, really don't, something, you know, you really gotta change.

Yeah. So is that like kind of prioritizing at the, at the simplest level of, you know, I, I take an accountability with my clients and I created a worksheet for this where I put it into 5 different categories and it's what they are doing without consciousness day in and day out that that are their obligations or routines, literally down to cutting their nails and going to the bathroom. Everything they do on a daily/weekly, over and over, taking out the garbage, if— right, right, washing the dishes. And then I have them put a time frame approximation next to each activity, right? And at the beginning, you see, because there's all these things that are involved in our life that, like, literally you only have 24 hours, and if you want to sleep 6 to 8 hours a day, then you you might actually not get to stuff that you keep pushing off and pushing off and pushing off. And then I start asking, one, like, what are the things that you can delegate out? What are the things that you have chosen to— I have to do, right? You want to— you're the bearer of the Colonel's secret recipe and you can't dare give that up. And, and what are the things that somehow slipped into that schedule? You're like, well, how did that get here? Why do I need to, you know, Why do I have 45 minutes of—

yeah, 45 minutes of Facebook, right?

Right. And then, right, and to be truly honest about like, well, no, I only do it a minute here and a minute there. But that minute here, minute there, 32 times a day, is that free half hour to go journal or meditate or walk or work out or cook a nutritionist meal or whatever it may be? So I think, right, that shift of what, you know, being really truly mindful about what you were you're saying is there. And then also realizing more along the lines of what we've let in, what culture has, you know, our society has told us what we need to let in, right?

I mean, culture and society and family and all these things we've talked about does a really good job brainwashing us away from our true paths in many cases. Yeah, watch out.

So, so this idea of, of not effing around, let's, let's break that down a little bit more because that's the name of your book, right? The Not Effing Around, the No Bullshit Guide for Getting Your Creative Dreams Off the Ground. Let's, let's break down some of those concepts there, right?

So not effing around, what is it? Well, it's, um, you know, it's a way to live life that is essentially tuned to your values Understanding things that keep us back, like comfort zone and inner critic and fear, failure, those kinds of things are there for reasons, but they need to be, and they need to be respected in ways, but they also need to be, you know, kind of put in their place. Like you don't need to live based on those things. And I was just kind of looking through the book here because I've got a pretty good definition I wanted to hit you with. Not effing around is the passion, the power, the bang, bang, bang that drives us to take real action to manifest a life worth living. Yeah.

Yeah. And I can imagine how many people out there are listening to that, like, well, what does that really mean? What does that look like for me? I thought I'm living the life that's worth living. I thought I'm getting getting, right? It becomes binary. I'm either getting what I want, and I just want to continue doing that, or like, oh, I don't know. Like, I mean, I have to think, I actually have to think about, do I really do want to be in this job that I've been in 15 years?

Sure.

So I have to get off autopilot.

That's the first thing, get off autopilot. A life worth living can be complete and is completely different for every different person, because we're all different. Right. And, you know, one of the things you mentioned there is getting what I want. Am I getting what I want? I wouldn't say that getting what you want completely equates a life worth living. Yeah, right. I mean, I think that's right. We sure, we all want to get what we want. That's why we want it. Yeah, yeah, right. But a life worth living might mean failing on the way to a life worth living.

Yeah.

You know, towards your goal.

Right. And you have the belief about failing fast.

Sure do. Failing fast. So failure scares the crap out of people. Nobody likes it, right? Failure. Ah, right. But there's ways to look at this that make it much more palatable and really helpful. Okay, so the first thing is failure is success in progress. Okay, I've interviewed zillions of creatives, business types, all kinds. Hey, what do you think about failure? Oh, fucking sucks. And It's my best friend that's got me to the goal line. Yeah, right. So duality, it's duality. And really, it's like you were talking about before, which way you're going to look at it, right? Is this, you know, the beast that clobbers me and keeps me down, or is this, you know, a way to success? So the way I like to think about it is changing the word from failure to feedback. Okay. So you have your goal, you do whatever you do to move towards it, and then failure. You didn't make it the whole way. Okay. Stop. Let's change the word to feedback. Remember that failure is, you know, the way to success. And this is where you question everything about, about the goal itself.

Mm-hmm.

What you did, what you didn't do, what worked, what didn't work. Like ask the best questions you can come up with. Yeah, write them down, discuss it with people who know or care, right? Then you take a breath, you iterate your process or whatever you're doing, and you step forward towards your goal again. Guess what's going to happen? Chances are, in ways, you're going to get more feedback, right? It's very seldom in life, and for any of us, that we hit a grand slam home run.

Yeah.

Let alone every time. Like, it just doesn't happen.

Well, that makes sense. Going back to that situation I was describing before where they have a very specific myopic, like, you know, through the microscope perspective of everything. And I asked them, so if you did get that, if that goal happened, then what? What's, what's, what's the day afterwards look like? So you reach it, right? The thing that you've been setting out on for the last 10 years that you thought you had to do and you had to be. And that thing came true. What's 4 days after that look like? And there was no answer. It was legitimate silence. Because everything is so tied up in that one specific outcome that you can't see all of the different ways. And in fact, right, it's like you were— I want to add to what you were saying, because I think what you said is so powerful— is whatever they're putting that meaning to, that they're asking questions about, I would also want to know what's their belief about that thing, right? What does that represent? Who is that representative to in addition to them? What does that say about them if they do it or they are that? What does it say about them if they don't do it or they aren't that? Yes. And then we can start teasing apart so many layers there.

I love that. And that brings me to a thought of this book I read years ago that blew my freaking brain out. It is called Finite and Infinite Games. Okay, it's a philosophy— it was written by a philosophy instructor at NYU called James Karse. And it gets very heady, this book, but some of these ideas are so good. So here, so here's really the beginning of the book. It says there's two kinds of games: finite games and infinite games. A finite game is played to win An infinite game is played to play, right? So if you chew on that for a minute, you're like, whoa.

Yeah, and I think I got a hit on that because I see that people are so stuck in emotions or stuck in the, the patterns or so stuck in a story that it's infinite and they can't get out of the loop. And the finite game is there is a very crystal clear, tangible, tactical action step parameter oriented. And it's, it's, it's interesting, right? Because I'm a, I'm a, as a therapist, sometimes I have to go very far away from the realm of emotions and the realm of psychology and go very much into the nitty-gritty action steps. And that's where we get stuck. It's not the flooding or the, right, the beliefs and the meanings and the dreams. It's, it's actually what you're doing, the simplicity of that.

Right. So it's interesting to me with that idea to think about what, what are the games that we're playing and are they finite or infinite and which one is most helpful. So paying the rent is a finite game. You either pay it or you don't. And that's a game you want to win.

Ones and zeros, binary.

Binary. Exactly. Right. But Um, having a loving relationship is an infinite game, right? There is always more possibility there. Yeah, there's always things to do. And same thing with your career, right? You— the finite game could be, I got a promotion. Okay, you got the promotion, that's finite. It's yes or no, you got it. Okay, but like you said, then what? Right? It's way more interesting, at least in my experience, to be like, so what's the bigger picture? Where can this go? What are the possibilities here? Whether it's in work or relationships or health and wellbeing, or, you know, just general enlightenment, all these kinds of things. So paying attention to which game you're playing and why.

And it might also make sense that sometimes they need to be put into a different category than they've been in. It might need to shift from finite to infinite and infinite to finite.

Absolutely. And, and knowing this and understanding this, again, being conscious of this can radically change your relationship to the game, right? If you're, if you're playing to win, it's very different than playing to play, right? Because what is play? Play is like play the game, but it's also like play like a kid plays. You just play. Yeah.

Well, I see it in private practice, right, for so many people in the healthcare profession that there's a playing to play. Because if I'm not serving, if I'm not giving back, then, right, yes, it helps out making a salary, it helps that I have a contract or that my business can grow. But it's— but I do see it that where people are getting stuck, especially when I'm I'm working with them is that there's no end result to it. It's just keep doing it until they die.

Sure. So there's no end result to it. So, so a finite game has an end result, you know, maybe it's, I want to make this much money, or I want to serve this many people, or, you know, those kinds of things. Then you can at least put a parameter around that. Right. If what you're saying, you know, kind of what I heard when you said that was, I just kind of do it until I die. Well, that doesn't— I mean, that sounds like, well, do you want to do it until you die, or are you just doing it until you die because you got nothing else to do? Or you're not even—

that's what we've been conditioned to do, that, right? You go to school, you get your degree, or you get a job, or you get a career, and whatever it is, whatever way that ends up, and then you just literally do it until hopefully you have enough to retire and save, and you then can finally be free at that point. And And I'm finding more and more, and that's where this entrepreneurship lens comes into this, this podcast where it's the psychology and the alternative medicine and, and spiritual insights and entrepreneurship together is it's looking at it through a very different lens. That's something that I've woken up to over the last many years. Like, what do you mean? I'm, of course, I'm going to be like 75 years old and still practicing and seeing a caseload of clients. I don't— but I'm starting it from my 20s, right? When I was 20 and 30. I was looking at that end result because it was infinite. What do you, what do you mean I'm not going to want to see clients? How, how dare, how dare I think that way that I wouldn't want to be, you know, and those things are allowed to evolve without the guilt, the shame of having newer goals, having different goals, having things that have nothing to do with what you think you're doing right now has to be what you're doing for the rest of your life without devaluing that what you're doing or devaluing yourself.

Absolutely. I mean, we change as people, right? So our goals and our games certainly can change. You know, if you're thinking the way you are as a 40-something-year-old of what you thought about when you were 15, you got a problem, right? Right. It's different goals. It's different games you're playing, right? So we need to, we need to just be conscious of that and, you know, be fluid with our lives and our perceptions of what's going on.

Yeah. So as you're evolving, right, and you've written a book and you're coaching, what's coming up next that you're starting to have fun thinking about for yourself?

Yeah. Well, I am— I just, over the past 6 months, a friend of mine has started to get into public speaking. You know, she wants to go around and do public speaking, talk about something she's passionate about, all this. I'm like, oh, you know, that'd be kind of cool. I, you know, I could see myself doing that. I got stuff to say, whatever. So I've been thinking about it, but not doing anything about it except one thing. And that is what I call the magic factory. Okay, wait, what? So the magic factory is my practice that I do in the morning, right around the time when I do the free writing. Where it's like law of attraction type stuff, okay, where I just crank up the emotional experience of where I want to go in my life. What would it feel like to XYZ? So one of the things I've been putting in there is, what would it be like to have real impact over a crowd while, you know, speaking to whoever? Right? Whoever needs to hear it. I just kind of just do that daily, daily, daily. Okay, I had not written a word on this speech, and I get a call a couple weeks ago from this writing conference that I did something, did a small class with like 4 or 5 years ago, and they're like, uh, our theme is, you know, writers and life coaching, you know, do you want to give us a A keynote. I'm like, yeah, of course, of course, of course, of course they called. Yeah, of course they called. So, you know, now I gotta write a speech, which is awesome because, you know, if you need a kick in the ass, get a gig that you gotta show up for.

Sure. Well, I think that's the Kickstarter campaign mindset. It's like, well, if you have a great idea, put it out there into the world, see who buys into it. It's A/B testing, right? Will this go? Will this sell? And if it does, great, then go create it that way. When you have the you already have, you know, the people that have bought into it and have maybe even given you money to go do it, as opposed to having to do it all by yourself. And you might even get meaningful partners in this process. You reminded me of many years ago, I— when I opened up my first office by myself after I left a group practice. And for whatever reason, there was a timeframe where I wasn't getting any new client calls, whether it was, you know, right, whatever the reason was. So I did exactly what you did. I I was sitting at my desk and my computer up, and I saw my schedule, which had all the white spaces, being envisioning turning them to blocked out, whatever the color was in the system that was blocked, right? That was the tentative to them actually sending in all the intake paperwork and the consent forms and all that stuff, to then that becoming blue as if they're confirmed scheduled.

Nice.

Within— so let's say I did that during lunch. I would say within 2 to 3 hours, in the middle of the session. And I remember I had an answering machine there, and I would always have to, like, every day I would have to reset it to make sure— I don't know what was with that answering machine. I would have to reset it with the volume button to always hit it down, because sometimes during the middle of session you would hear like, "Hi, I'm calling about therapy," and like the client in session would hear that whole person's spiel. Um, but I remember hearing it that afternoon. Hi. I'm calling about to schedule a new session. I'm like, wow, that worked. So the next day I was doing supervision with my interns who were getting licensed. And I was telling them that story of what happened the afternoon before. And as I was telling them that story, I'm sure you know what happened. Phone rang again, literally in the middle of retelling that story with a new client. So as woo woo as that sounds, Hey, bring on the woo! Bring on the woo!

So, so yes, and one thing that I would— I love that story, of course. And one thing I want to stress to the listeners is the woo works, and you gotta do something. Like, you didn't just say this. I mean, you went to school for this stuff, you set up the practice, you had a website, marketing, all that stuff, all the stuff. And then the energy kind of connected the dots.

I had to drop the resistance about why not, why isn't it happening, versus it's going to, it's in escrow. It's all that, right, the law of attraction words that Esther Hicks talks about, right? It's in escrow waiting out there, you just have to align with it, right? Which is so— and I used to like, it's so funny, when I first started listening to the law of attraction stuff years ago, and I probably listened to a good 10, 15 hours, and I'm like, okay, cool. And then I came back to it about a year later, and then I like deep dive. And then, right, I had to, I had to warm up the vessel.

Yeah, totally, right?

And it wasn't like I was still in resistance. I was still like, all right, this is really out there. This is like, I get it from the neurology perspective. I've seen, uh, What the Bleep, which is an incredible documentary.

Sure.

Um, and two of my mentors from my neuro-emotional technique world, Dr. Monty and Dr. Newberg, were both featured in, uh, and at least in the book, I can't remember which version of the documentaries they're interviewed in as well. Um, but it took my— right, I had to prime the pump. And that priming the pump doesn't necessarily— like, you know, you might have those few tries, you might have the failed— so right where we were talking about before, the failed attempts, and they're not— they were just loosening up the neurology. They were just creating enough wiggle room.

And I would also suggest that just like the stuff we talked about before with the speed wrapping and going to the gym, and the Infinite Games, it's a practice, right? It's not, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this once, I'm gonna do Law of Attraction tonight, and yeah, you know, whatever thing that you just like, uh, yeah, right? You just need to keep doing it, and the more you do it, the more energy, just like the stronger you get when you work out.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So let's, let's give some shoutouts to some of your stuff so people can find you, right? So we have The Not Effing Around, The No Bullshit Guide. It's funny, we're not right. No fucking around, but it's all, you know, whatever. The No Bullshit Guide for getting— right, how— why am I saying bullshit but not the effing word? Right. But it's not effing around, The No BS Guide for Getting Your Creative Dreams Off the Ground. And they can find that, I'm assuming, wherever they want to.

It's out there, you know, our friends at Amazon will send it to you or whatever. So yes, that's the book. And then, you know, the coaching— I, I coach, you know, specifically what I call creatives of any flavor, you know, musicians, filmmakers, writers, dancers, whatever, um, and heart-centered humans. You know, if you know you've got a heartbeat and that's kind of moving you forward in the world, that's the thing. So you can go and check out my thing, and, uh, I do, uh, you know, complimentary sessions with people who get, see if it's a good fit.

Awesome, Jeff. I want to thank you so much. And everybody, if you've been listening, you got any benefit out of this, obviously, you know, check out Jeff's social media, which we'll put links in all of the show notes. Go on Amazon, buy the book, give it as a gift to someone else. I'm sure anybody, you know, going through the chapters, such really cool titles of the chapters, and just some of the insights that you shared today. You take a deeper dive in the book. And obviously, if you're, you know, if you're that creative in that that space and you're looking to kick it up a little bit more, then please reach out. So, Jeff, again, thank you so much.

Thank you. It was a great podcast, man. You're a great, great interview, great conversation.

Appreciate that so much.