Ep. 159- Becoming Om with Cordi and David

This is the You Winning Life podcast, your number one source for mastering a positive existence. Each episode, we'll be interviewing exceptional people, giving you empowering insights, and guiding you to extraordinary outcomes. Learn from specialists in the worlds of integrative and natural wellness, spirituality, psychology, and entrepreneurship so you too can be winning life. Now here's your host, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified neuro-emotional technique practitioner, owner and certified entrepreneur coach Jason Wasser.

All right, y'all, welcome back to the You Winning Life podcast. So as you know, we tend to go on to some really cool deep dives with stuff that's on the cutting edge, and, um, right, whether it's in the world of entrepreneurship or mindset, um, and more specifically anything that's in the world of psychology and personal development. This kind of hits a lot of different levels because most people, I'm assuming, out there who are listening to this and perhaps are even listening to other podcasts and following just what's going on in the healing arts community has seen some research or some study or some social media post about psychedelic plant medicine and what's going on in that world, whether it's coming out of the clinical research of Johns Hopkins or the documentary with Michael Pollan, Change Your Mind, and the book that he based that on that's on Netflix. But today we have really awesome guests that you already heard in their intro that are doing all of this in intentional and safe psychedelic healing journeys and retreats. And David and Courtney, really excited to have you hanging out with us today.

Thank you, man. Thanks for having us. And I actually love how you put that, the healing arts community. I'm— my, my actual background is as a doctor of physical therapy. And it's funny, because I don't relate to that whatsoever anymore. Because I guess I got into that wanting to heal people and realized physical therapy wasn't it. So it's a nice reframing of it to hear that I'm part of the healing arts community. I like that better.

Yeah, well, it's, it's great because as a deep— right, it's a physical therapy, right? People think that it's a neck-down body, right? Body-down, emotional stuff up, and that, that world— PTs, acupuncture, chiropractic, anything that will be considered the body docs— don't tap into that. And Right, you guys know this, and I know this, that, you know, that whole Descartes separation of mind-body really is where we got stuck now versus this systemic, whole person, whole system, relational dynamic approach. So, you know, it's funny because I would consider PTs as very much, you know, when they get this stuff, that they are looking at emotions and trauma and stress and environmental factors. So, you know, hopefully that reframes for everybody out there too. So, okay, so how did you— first of all, how did you guys meet, connect, and get into what you guys are doing now? Because some pretty cool stuff. And, uh, I like— it's taken me 150 episodes at a bare minimum of recording to get into this with people. So I think now that after 150, 150 episodes or so, whatever, by the time this comes out, I think everybody's ready to hear all these things that we're going to talk about today. So let's start there.

Right on, man. This is one of my favorite stories to tell, actually. So Courtney and I met at an ayahuasca retreat in Costa Rica. So I was there as a guest. She was there actually working for the center as a yoga teacher. And it's like a whole story. But one of the reasons I sought ayahuasca was to change my behavior in romantic relationships because I used to be sort of like a womanizer and I would create drama in my life by seeing multiple people. Because it was actually easier for me to deal with that drama than it was for me to pursue my passions or start a business or, you know, do any sort of creative endeavor. So I created all this drama as a means of procrastinating, almost. So I go to Costa Rica and I have this in mind of like, hey, you got to stop this. And then I almost felt like I was being tested by the universe, just throwing more beautiful women at me while I'm supposed to be focusing on my healing journey, right? So I went out of my way to avoid Courtney the entire week. Um, so I was telling myself like, focus, David, like stop looking at women for one fucking week. Like focus. And, um, but yeah, it worked clearly. Yeah.

Yeah.

We never saw each other again.

We, we stayed in touch after that. I went to New Jersey and she actually went back to California. So we were on like opposite coasts. Uh, we just talked more and more and then ultimately our first date was like a 10-day road trip. From Chicago to California. Um, so our first date lasted like a week and a half, and then I flew back home. Our second date was also about 10 days or 14 days. We got matching tattoos on our quote-unquote second date. And then our third date, she moved in with my parents in New Jersey. And I think our fourth date, I guess we moved to Mexico together.

So essentially it's a fast timeline. And you're—

so you're— so now you're just on the fifth date at this point, basically.

A very extended—

very extensive. I mean, it makes absolute complete sense, right? Because you have these two, these worlds of people that are dating, and I work a lot with relationship dynamics whether it's singles or couples. And you hear this like, "All right, it's very slow, it's very methodical." But people don't go into knowing what they want with absolute certainty and clarity, and by the time they get to me for couples or relationship stuff, there's all this chaos, and they never stopped to ask important things in the beginning. Is our core values the same? Is our lifestyle the same? Is the stuff that we want to co-create and our missions in alignment? Doesn't have to be the exact same mission, but are they in alignment? When you, when you saw him that weekend, how much did you know of what he was going through, what his intention was? And while you were there, right, you were, you were an instructor, right? So what was your, what was your intention of being there that weekend too? I'm really curious about this because I don't know if anybody's ever asked you that.

Actually, no. So I love this question. So I didn't really know about that because so I was working at Soltara for about 3 months and Soltara is a relatively big name in the industry now. So like David said, I was a yoga instructor and retreat assistant there. So I had a broad spectrum of tasks and, you know, just things that I was, was doing. But a part of that was to, you know, be leading the yoga before ceremony and in the mornings and then also being around for the integration. And just helping out with whatever was needed. And I didn't really know about specifically that intention because I don't remember David sharing that specifically.

And I never talked to her during that week.

That is true.

One conversation.

Yeah.

And so it was interesting for me because I actually love what you're saying about people not knowing about themselves before getting into a relationship. So that is something that I was not specifically there to, to work on, but just something that unfolded around that time for me. So I had just left an abusive marriage and for the first time in a couple of years was confronted with why am I like, what are these patterns that I'm still holding? Where am I enabling or contributing to abusive behavior? Because that is something that I grew up with. So it felt very comfortable, and then leaving that, being confronted with what do I actually want? And so a huge part of that for me was on that journey is while I was working there, I was also working with a relationship coach, which was very helpful. And essentially all the things that you were speaking to about what are my core values, what is my mission, getting clarity on that independent of another person. And so what was actually really interesting is, and this is something maybe more specific to David and I, but we have both found incredible healing and clarity on who we are as individuals and then also what is our mission through plant medicine, especially through ayahuasca. And so this is something where I I've been on this journey for quite some time, almost 6 years, and ended up going to Peru very specifically to work on these pieces of myself, of the relationship, and how can I love myself more and how can I be my own whole person? Because I can't have anyone try to fix something or fill a void that I have, but I need to do that for myself and for some people this might sound very woo, but these indigenous communities and tribes, especially around ayahuasca, there's a whole plethora of other master plants and healing plants that are able to, in a very gentle way, to show you some of these pieces and to start healing some of these pieces. And so that was very specifically the work that I did around that. And lo and behold, you know, going from what does that look like, what kind of a partnership do I want, and not even thinking this is something I could ever dream into existence, to calling in exactly that because I was my own whole person. And so I think this is such a beautiful, just such a beautiful way of the medicine of ayahuasca bringing us together and putting us in the same environment in the first place, but then also allowing that relationship to unfold and putting us in each paths to co-create this dream together and this vision of bringing that to other people and creating safer and more integrated spaces for people to be able to receive that and to connect to themselves in that way.

So many parts of that that I just want to pick apart because, you know, we're living in a fragmented and very difficult time, especially here in the United States, but around the world. And The one thing that I— that stands out to me is that runs consistently through what I heard you say is clarity, right? Clarity about who you are, clarity about what you want, clarity about what you're willing to accept, and clarity about what you guys are not willing to accept, and clarity about how to get there, right? And to— what do you need to let go of as well, right? And what do you need to bring in, call in? And it's interesting that On one side, I'm so glad that this is finally happening, right? It's the beginning of 2023 and we're now finally talking about this, which was like when you watch the first episode of the documentary on Netflix, Change Your Mind, right? You hear the whole thing of Ken Kesey was like the Grateful Dead and the Merry Pranksters, and the joke was he was the wrong guy to turn on with LSD because so much of his leadership in that community came from— well, what was he doing? It was a government study, and the government turned on the wrong— well, we, you know, they think there's a wrong guy, and we're like, this is the right guy, right? But we're now looking at this 40, 50, 40 years later, right, or more at this point. Um, I saw the Grateful Dead 50th anniversary a few years ago in Chicago, so it's been more than 50, right? So it's been at least 50, right? So, you know, this is finally coming to awareness, and we have simpler ways of, of doing it. And I think what you're talking about is like, you're— this can be used to cut through through years of bullshit and trauma and bad relationships and unconscious attraction to stuck situations. So is there— I don't know which way to ask you this next question, so I'll ask both and you guys can take it from there. One, should we break down a little bit about what actually is plant medicine. What does that mean? Let's first maybe talk about some of the titles and some of the herbs and plants that are being used, and then maybe go from there into, well, who's doing this? Why should we do this? When should you know this is for you? When should you know this is maybe not for you? And then we can get more into the next level of is like, well, what's out there now and how do you tap into that such as what you guys are doing? Okay.

May I offer just one other thing related to what you said of, you know, you pulled this thread out of Courtney's answer of like clarity, basically, of who am I, how do I relate to people, what situations do I want for myself. And going back to what you were talking about with coaching people through damaged relationships, the reason I wanted to linger on this point, just at a very high level, I think that when people work with plant medicine, we're seeking healing in some way, right? That term gets thrown around so much. I think to really hone in on like what it actually means or what you actually get from working with plant medicine, at the end of the day, it's a better relationship with yourself. I heard it described as like all that ayahuasca is meant to do is help you fall deeper in love with yourself. And at the time I heard it, I was like, man, this is bullshit. That sounds lame as hell. But it's, it's the complete truth. And I've come to realize that's basically how any healing happens, whether it's through just therapy or plant medicine or whatever. It's learning to love yourself better and it's fixing that relationship with yourself because the relationship to yourself is the start of the relationship to everything else. I like my relationship with Cordy will only ever be as healthy as my relationship with myself. So I just, I don't know, I wanted to throw that in before we get into the weeds of which plant medicine works for what, because at the end of the day, that should be the mission that you're on when you set out to work with plant medicine. It's how can I learn to love myself better?. And that's why when we work with someone with microdosing, we throw in so many other variables into the mix, not just the psilocybin, because it should just be a tool to improve that relationship with yourself. So I'm sorry to skirt around your question, but I want to—

No, no, I think it's actually— it's— and I'm happy to stay on this because I see that, right? I'm gluten-free, so using this metaphor always sucks for me. But like, it's like your pizza has to be a really good pizza in the first place. Before you add toppings on it, right? And if your pizza, right? So, right? If you have, if you know, Cordy could have been your really great toppings to your life if you didn't do the work, right? And, but if your pizza sucked, it's still gonna be a crappy pizza. And you're like, oh, these toppings are great, but what a waste, right? So, but if your pizza's good, then your pizza should be good even without the toppings, right? It should be like, I don't really need it. I should just be a really good pizza, right? Toppings are just like the benefit and the bonus of like, oh, how much even better can this get, right?

As someone who cooks a lot of pizza, I love this analogy.

Yeah.

So it should be a great, a great flatbread by yourself and then you just add all of the toppings. Exactly.

Exactly. So, right, you should have learned how to rise in your own yeast.

Oh my gosh.

So, yeah, you gotta get those probiotics somehow, somehow, right?

Oh my God.

So you should be your own best kombucha.

Dude, I literally traveled from the States with my own sourdough starter. He's been alive for over a year now, so. Nice.

Does it have a name?

All right. Siggy, Siggy the sourdough starter. While we're in Mexico, his name is Siggycito.

So that's amazing. Yeah. So people who don't know about the people who are obsessed with their sourdough, they have names. It's literally, it's a member of the family.

Yeah.

It's a child. I'm sorry, I have to plant medicine stuff. Where were we?

No, listen, this is the beauty of like, this is the platform. Like, you know, I want people who are listening to this to be like, all right, this is not just, right? It's not just like hardcore intense, like whatever. Like you get to see like the reality of what people are going through and it's normal and healthy. And we're all, we're all trying to figure it out and have fun along the way. So all right, let's start with you, right? Just starting off with like, how did you guys get, you know, turned on to this? And how did you know what to do? And where, you know, what guidance did you get? And then walk us through like, okay, so this is what plant medicine is. And this is, you know, what people are typically doing. And we'll go from there.

Yeah.

So for me, it's actually really interesting. It's been a very interesting journey. I'm originally from Austria. I've been nomadic for about 6 years, and now being in Mexico is the first time that I'm a little bit more stationary. And so I've always traveled a lot. And being in Europe when I was in college, we would take the occasional trip to Amsterdam and just, you know, like buy some mushrooms, did them recreationally, have a really good time. And so it was always in a safe setting. I had fun, but there weren't any, you know, profound insights or anything. And I thought, oh, this is all that is. And came with the occasional anxiety and like spiraling into some darker thoughts because like David was saying earlier, plant medicine at the very core, it can help you build a deeper relationship to yourself. And I was really afraid to look at that because turns out that I really did not love myself. And that, you know, is the reason why I ended up in situations that I did end up in. So going from that, I started traveling full time 5 years ago, almost 6 years ago, and I found myself at a yoga teacher training in the mountains of Ecuador. And I was in the Andes for a month and I'd come from a few months of a lot of recreational drugs, a lot of drinking, a lot of bypassing and trying to figure out who am I, what do I want after graduating university, and just recognizing the life that was planned out for me in Austria was not something that I wanted. And it gave me just massive anxiety and just didn't feel free. I didn't feel like that was living. And so it's just I'm existing in this, you know, in this programming. I'm existing on this path that is laid out very meticulously for people. And something that was really life-changing at that yoga teacher training, first of all, is the practice of yoga, which in many ways allowed me to start looking at these pieces and gave me a lot of the tools to then really work with plant medicine. And that is something that I always come back to, is the tools from yoga, not the physical practice specifically, but much more the, the breath and the meditation, the mindfulness part, because those tools in combination with plant medicine make a world of a difference. And so what was really wonderful is that throughout that month that I was there, every weekend we had a shaman family, an Ecuadorian indigenous family, come and work with us for plant medicine. So I got introduced to hape, I got introduced to temazcal, which is those typical South Central American sweat lodges. And I got introduced to San Pedro, and I got introduced to it in a way that was ceremonial. There was ritual, there was reverence, and there was a deep respect for these medicines and a relationship with them. Not something that I'm taking this to get something for myself, but I am building an intentional relationship with not necessarily just plant medicine, you know, but also in the temazcal with the hot stones that you bring in and, you know, through the chanting and through invoking these qualities of these spirits. And I was like, oh, this is really interesting. And I'm very grateful for that because I think it set an expectation for me of I will not settle for less. And that is something that I think is really important because there's a lot of recreational use and there's a lot of abuse of sacred medicines in a recreational way that completely bypasses any sort of relationship with the plant, let alone with yourself.

Yeah.

And so I went from that to sitting with ayahuasca my first time at Sol Tara 4 years ago and being immersed into this deeper layer of looking at myself from all of these different angles, from all of these different perspectives, and starting to, you know, like pull on a thread that looking at that allowed me to unravel most of my life at this point, where I can see why am I reacting in the ways that I do, where is this coming from, and just recognizing how subconscious our behavior is and how little how I was growing up and acting had to do with at the core who I was. And so starting it is like starting to take off these masks and starting to take off some of this armor, and just getting a little bit closer to meeting yourself. Because I would argue that most people don't actually know who they are. It is a version of this is what your parents tell you that you are. This is what society tells you that you are. And most people don't know who they are. And a lot of people are afraid to meet that person because you just don't know.

Yeah. And it is that script, right? You have the script or this, this dataset that you're handed and it's— you can stray so far away from it before you get feedback on that and that and that resistance, right? They would say, to that. And that's where the anxiety, the fear, the depression, all that stuff starts triggering in because you're no longer playing within the boundaries of the original programming, or you're pushing up against the boundaries of the original programming. And then if it gets so overwhelming, you just move back in that lane that might not serve you in the first place.

Mm-hmm. There's this story that Graham Hancock often tells where he goes to an indigenous healer and asks, "What is wrong with the world?" And the healer tells him, "You have severed your connection." with spirit. And that's what it is, like, with our own spirit, with who we are at the core, and, you know, the greater spirit of everything that is connected. And so this is what I've found in working with these medicines, is being able to look at myself in different ways and also seeing how important it is to do it in a setting that is very safe with people that you can trust, and not just with people that you can trust, but people that actually know what they're doing. Because some of these, some of the energies that you release in those spaces and some of the things that arise from the depths of your being are really challenging. And being able to hold that and not just hold it, but helping the person under the medicine to transmute that and to walk through that and come out the other side, not getting stuck there is— that's an art. And there's a reason why, especially with ayahuasca, and I will make this point all the time, there's a reason why these healers apprentice from a very young age. They start apprenticing in their teens. They go and study with a teacher, and there are years and years and years of sitting in isolation, of sitting with these plants, even though they come from the lineage, over 10 years of training before they will get the blessing from their teacher to go out and hold space for other people. And that is not because of, you know, this is just the way that it is. That is for a very good reason. And that is that if, again, very specifically to ayahuasca, like if that's not what you do, you are much— you're likely to cause more harm than help anybody and just fuel your own ego.

Yeah. I see it as a very scary thing because there's the pop-up industry of all this right now, right? We're kind of at the apex now of what we're seeing is we have all these conferences, Wonderland and all these things, and then there was conflicts with that. A buddy of mine's a professor here in South Florida and he teaches on psychedelics and mental health. And now there's these like, "Well, it's Big Pharma coming in and doing these things," or you have people who are just like, "I took a weekend course and now I'm a coach in And it does, unfortunately, right? And it scares people because it makes anything that already has been, you know, forbidden for many reasons even more out of reach for people because they're buying into all these stigmas and fear factors. And oh, that— it's like, you know, like the person who died from a chiropractor 40 years ago because they had a— right? Therefore, all chiropractic is bad. Or someone who acupuncture— oh, they put the needle in too deep and it punctured a lot. Like, I mean, they cover— there's all of this stuff. What are you finding that, like, now, because you're saying that, like, the place that you guys are holding, the intention that you guys have set to create a place like that, where it's— it is about safe, it is about who's the people that we're connected to, and who's helping facilitate this and the training. And it's not just, we've jumped on this bandwagon 6 months ago, and now we're opening up a clinic. Which I'm sure you guys see happen every day on social media, right? So where— and maybe this is the whole point of why we're talking— it sounds to me— so maybe the question is not where, it's, it sounds to me like you guys are trying to be one of those places where it is researched, where it is safe, where it is, here's our trainings, here's our background, here's where we're coming from, here's— as opposed to we didn't just open up last week.

Well, I think importantly, as it pertains to the work we do with ayahuasca, it's an important distinction to make that we help facilitate these experiences, but we do not actually serve the medicine, right? So we do conduct our own psilocybin ceremonies. I feel comfortable serving that to people. The ayahuasca, there's so much reverence and ceremony, and it is such a sacred medicine to the people of the Amazon that I don't personally feel like I have any business ever serving it. There are definitely some Westerners who have apprenticed their whole lives and have been given the blessing to serve the medicine from indigenous folks. That's one thing. But yeah, just taking ayahuasca once and then calling yourself a shaman is very different. And yeah, like I said, like, I don't ever intend to serve ayahuasca. I have no need to. Our work is to connect people to the center down in Peru. And we also have a nonprofit arm now to directly support that center and support access to that center, which we can talk more about. But yeah, I just wanted to make that distinction clear that like, I, there's a lot of ayahuasca that's being done in America. I don't think it has any business being done there. It doesn't come from there. So kind of to your point of like, there is so much bad information out there. And like, how do people even find reputable places to go? How does someone even go about determining is this place approaching this with the right intention or not. It is hard. It is a huge problem right now. And I actually see that as one of the reasons why it's important for us to come on podcasts like this and have these types of conversations. There's that adage that like the cure for misinformation isn't banning it, it's more good information. So that's kind of what we're trying to do here. So thank you for having this conversation with us. Cordy, what are your thoughts on that?

I think something that's really important for any type of plant medicine, whether that is ayahuasca, whether that's San Pedro, whether that's psilocybin, MDMA, kind of not looking at that substance or plant or medicine as a cure-all, but as an invitation to take a better look at yourself. And that is where in my opinion, like anyone who's like, I am going to heal you, I am the person that is going to save you, don't just walk away, but run. Because at the end of the day, like you need— and this is something that the preparation and especially the integration, I would argue, are at least as if not more important because you can do all the ayahuasca in the world and there are people who, you know, will go seeking and seeking because like with anything else, you can abuse plant medicines as well. They're not addictive, but you can get addicted to that feeling and to that, this, right, you know, like being in that space and not comfortable to be with that type of group of people when, or what, right?

Any, there's so many different, right? Very fast, right? It's like we're going to Tulum and we're going to do this, right?

So yeah, yeah, I'm hitting all the right buttons over there, huh? Yeah.

We literally live in Tulum. So yeah, it drives me crazy on a daily basis.

Right, right, right, right. It's, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, that's what all the document— I mean, it's, and it's funny, because I love talking about this with my clients, like, why do you know, you know this, or one of my, I can't remember even one of my old therapists that when I first started, when I first got licensed, I was, I was using their office, and I'm now seeing presently, I was, it was a shared client, I was doing the neuro-emotional technique with them, and they were still doing the therapy. And They're no longer going to that therapist at this point. But the therapist had this like, "Oh, he knows about this stuff. He knows about plant medicine." There's these stigmas and assumptions within the clinical therapy world that have to be broken. I mean, I guess I am with the NET even though it's journal published and clinically researched and we're doing major, major, major studies and the Journal of Cancer Survivorship has published stuff on it or from our from our research. And so even me as a licensed medical mental health professional in multiple states, we still have to talk— like, even when I'm talking to my clients, like, oh, like, yeah, some are like, yes, I'm already doing it, because maybe they've done a Burning Man, or they've done some other type of conscious community that's hanging out in that space. And some are like, oh, I would never do that. I'm like, but you take all this medication. That we're hopefully going to try to move you away from, or you do Botox every month.

Ugh!

Right? So let's navigate. I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong. I'm not trying to tell you, but how did that become okay? What are the general rules and assumptions that you carry about that being okay for you versus something like this that you've automatically decided that isn't? And then you have obviously the people that are bastardizing it and, you know, making it really difficult. I'm wondering, you know, like, I guess I would be a good example, right? I've been practicing, I graduated 2005 as a therapist. I've done hypnosis training, I've done sports psychology, I've gone through my own anxiety and trauma and panic attacks. That's how I stumbled into Neuromotional Technique because nothing else worked. And then I became a practitioner in it. Now next week, I'm actually traveling to California to coach their certification classes. 10 or 12 of us have been invited to help facilitate the coaching program that they do every year for licensed medical practitioners. So I would say I'm pretty far down the rabbit hole of clinically researched, journal-published stuff. And even though I love all of this stuff that you guys are talking about, and even though I'm an advocate and will stand up, you know, and, you know, write letters or whatever that would be, there's still a hesitancy for people like me because maybe some of that stuff is still tricking us into staying away from it. So let's say someone's not even doing what I'm doing, but they're like, I've been hearing about this. And right there, you're listening to this podcast right now and you're one of those people and you're like, this sounds really cool, but I have this family stuff that like, oh no, like everybody in my family thinks I'm going to be doing drugs or this person's going to think like, oh, now you're going to like down to, you know, the Amazon and you're going to be with this cult leader. Or they're gonna take it, you have to do it once and then you gotta come back and do it again and then it becomes this repeated thing or whatever. Where do we start? Obviously documentaries and YouTube videos and MAPS, the Multiple Disciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies, maps.org, your website Becoming Home, right? Where would you start just with that if someone's coming into you with just all of those hesitations?

I've kind of two thoughts, one of like a practical approach and one of like a kind of higher level way of looking at this. I'm gonna start with that one. So what you're describing is someone who's starting to get curious about all of this stuff. There's something within them that they're feeling called towards this. Mm-hmm. And yet they're listening to basically all of those negative voices from society, from people that they know, from the established medical industry that are telling them not to do this. The way that I see it is they've lived their entire life according to that system. They've lived their entire life within the box of the medical field. They've done all of the normal medical treatments. They followed all of the normal rules of society, and that's gotten them to this place where they're at now, where they're still broken or there's still something wrong and they're still seeking something different. So I think at a fundamental level, there has to be some sort of leap of faith that takes place where you recognize that my current operating system is clearly insufficient to solve this problem that have. Otherwise, I wouldn't have this problem. So at a deep level, you need to just step outside of all of that quote unquote normal shit, because that normal shit is what has led you to have the problem that you have now.

It's like you were listening into my last couple session yesterday.

Really?

Verbatim. Verbatim. It was very transcendental. Verbatim, right? Yeah, that's what it is, right? It's the— what got you here is not going to get you there. And if you're stuck, if you're coming to see one of us, because what you've been using to get you here is causing you to need help at some level with someone else outside of you that you're hopefully willing to get and seek help for. Yeah, holding on to that stuff is not going to get you there.

Yeah, more of the same is never going to solve it. I, I think it was Einstein— I hope it was because, yes, it is many times.

Yeah.

Okay, it's like said, no problem can be solved on the same level from which it originated.

Correct.

So we have to take a step back here and try something deeper. Um, you have something to add, Courtney, or should I go into my actual practical recommendation?

I would just love to offer a little bit of a reframe of this is where when we think about the current medical system, that is a very current system that has been implemented in the last couple hundred years. It is very new. And when we think of most of human history, how have we been living? In what settings have we been living? What have been our— like, what has our value system been, which traditionally has been love and community and relationships. And now we're incredibly— connection to nature. We're incredibly isolated. We're dependent on all of these pharmaceuticals. We're eating absolute garbage because that is what is cheap and we are completely disconnected. And so, you know, when we look at literally most of actually recorded human history, to every single culture has used plant medicines in some way, shape, or form. Every single culture has rituals and ceremonies around transcendental states, whether that is through chanting, whether that is through deep meditation, whether that is through plant medicine. And completely ignoring that is crazy. And that is something where, you know, especially from the US, but that has trickled over into Europe, the Just Say No movement and, you know, the war against drugs. Drugs, that is something that's wrong.

Yeah, yeah.

It didn't arise out of this is not serving us. It arose out of a need for control and for power. And, you know, I—

sorry to cut you off, but I feel like it also intersects with like another hot topic today, which is like personal sovereignty, which we saw really emerge to the forefront of like our societal consciousness with COVID Because if you're told the lie that you're sick and that you're broken, then you can be sold cures for it. But if you are not actually sick and broken on a deep internal level, then you have no need for that, right? Which I don't— I mean, I'm a huge conspiracy theorist just for fun. So I don't mean to go down this whole rabbit hole, but I do think there's a lot of powers that currently exist where it's in their interest to withhold anything that would give you a radical new level of personal, personal sovereignty over your health, over your wellness. Like over your decision-making?

Well, it's funny because I have my feet in both worlds, right? I'm a licensed— I joked with my friends because I got 3 doses and I joke with my friends that I've never been— I'm definitely not an anti-vax, but I've never been a pro-vax, right? So it's not like I don't get flu shots every year. When I traveled to Israel when I was like 18, I got whatever I needed to get the first time I went for being there for school clear. And I do study and I have friends in that medical integrative clinical research and data science and all that stuff, which I highly trust. And then I have friends in my integrative and alternative, although I don't want to call it alternative because like you said, Cordy, right? This has been around for 150 years, this system. So which one's really the alternative, right? Medicine is when you put it into that context and all the folk medicine and the plant medicine, all the stuff that we've all been chicken soup and ginger and iodine, right? All that stuff that we've been using for thousands of years. It's the chicken soup without the matzo balls for me.

So and just to add on to that, when we think of our pharmaceuticals now, most of them are, you know, have compounds derived from the Amazon. And so what's the difference? It is something that you can then trademark, that you can, you know, basically sell under this. And so what a lot of these cultures do is they completely bypass the middleman and they just work with the plants.

Right.

And that's in the documentary. I can't remember which episode it was either because I think there's 5 episodes, right, of the Michael Pollan. So I think they talked about that in one of the last 2 episodes where a lot of the compounds, MDMA and stuff like that, are coming from. And obviously we know LSD was synthesized, but it's all coming from nature, right? If you really look at where everything is coming from. And I think that's— I'm a big fan of the best of both, right? Where can you find the people that you know and you trust in the best of both worlds? Politics unfortunately are always gonna play at some level. There's always gonna be some type of like, "Well, who gets to own this?" And you were talking about sovereignty and like, "What about sovereignty? Who really has sovereignty?" Oh, come on.

Sovereignty.

Thank you. Nature, right?

Yeah.

So, you know, it's, it's— I know this is not something that we will solve in this specific conversation, but it's, it's something that I definitely— because I have friends, very close, like, people that I love and will take the metaphorical bullet for that are not vaccinated. And I have people that are like down the rabbit hole of that. And like, that's the only— someone said to me in the medical world, like, if I can get vaccinated every 4 weeks, I would, for them, for what they've been going through. And I'm like, okay, you know, like, but I'm also right. It's, it's, I think that we're now a little bit past all of that, I think. And, um, I think what we're all looking for, right, is, is the fear of healing, right? There's the fear of not being healed and the fear of if I do do this. And I talk about this a lot of times with my clients when it comes to any type of concern they're bringing to is if you do solve this problem, what problem or problems will that now create for you? So I'll give you an example, uh, a couple that I'm seeing, and, and there's been one of the partners is more avoidant of conflict, and they're a wonderful human being, they're both wonderful human beings, and it's frustrating partner A that partner B is just avoidant of conflict. And now we went more systemic relational family dynamics. And without even seeing partner B in that session, I'm like, oh, this now all makes sense. Partner B grew up with a family member that is very conflict and very pushy and very this. So to defuse the proverbial bomb, they just don't engage. And now that's trickled into every other type of— and they love that parent, and that parent is still a good person. But now they're doing this with— partner B is now doing this with their Person B is now doing this with their partner. And what would happen if they stopped doing that? Well, then there'd be more conflict. So I think a lot of fear. We've been in the last couple years, a lot of fear on all sides. But this has been going on. But even think about the beginning of like we were talking about with Ken Kesey and the first episode of Change Your Mind. They talk about that with the kool-aid acid tests and all the stuff that came out of like, there was fear. The government was afraid we can't be able to keep our citizens safe and all these different things. But let's put all that aside. Let's put all the politics and all the government stuff aside. Personal fear, because I think people don't know what's out there for them if they let go of the beliefs that have kept them there in the first place. And that's scary.

That is scary. And I understand that because The thing is, and this is what it kind of comes back to, is we are growing up outsourcing a lot of, like, most of our lives, you know, like we, we blame the government and we blame this and we blame that, or I am the way because my mother treated me like this, or I am this way because my ex-husband was like that. And something that happens when you hopefully, when you go down this path, is that you start and have to take radical responsibility for your life. You cannot change the thing that happened to you, but you have to take radical responsibility for everything else, like however you are going to go forward, how are— how you are going to act, how you're going to interact with other people. And so when we have, you know, we have this story about who we are, and we have this story of trauma or pain or essentially not an excuse, but this is our reason why I can't do the things that I tell others or tell myself that I want because of this pain or because of this story. And so we continue to tell this story to ourselves and believe that so deeply. And stepping out of that and taking responsibility responsibility for all of that would mean that the only person that is left to blame if I am not living the life that I want to live and that I deep down know that I deserve and I am worthy of is me. And that is really hard. If you can't point the finger at anybody else, you have to— at the very core, you have to look at all of these parts of yourself where you are out of alignment, where you're not acting in your highest integrity, where you are lying to yourself and other people, and that is uncomfortable as fuck.

Yeah.

And the older you get, the harder that gets because then it's not like I'm 28. I'm like, okay, here's 28 years of this. If I'm in my 50s or in my 60s, maybe I've had, you know, like failed marriages. Maybe I'm estranged from my children but have built a super successful company. Then also for, for people to potentially look back at their lives and say, I— most of my life has been a lie. It is easier to stay in that and to continue believing that story than actually breaking out of that. And something that I can tell anyone who's listening, your potential and the expansion that you can find through deeply looking at yourself and like building this deep loving relationship with yourself and the inner peace of mind that you can have when you're not in a fight or flight state all the time, when you're not in this pain all the time.

Yeah.

Is it makes it all worth it. But it is a lot of work and it is a lot of uncomfortable looking like truly looking in the mirror is really uncomfortable. And I think that is what people are afraid of. And I think a lot of people who are afraid of plant medicine, there's a deep part of themselves that is afraid of seeing all of that because then there's nobody else to blame and then they would have to step up. And doing that work is daunting. And, you know, it comes with potentially letting go of relationships. Most likely it does, because when we think of a lot of our relationships, we're not taught how to set healthy boundaries. And part of that comes because we don't love ourselves enough. So we accept treatment from other people, whether that's our family, whether that's our boss, whether that's our partner, because we don't love ourselves enough. And so potentially all of this comes with letting go a job that I've identified myself with. It potentially comes with releasing a lot of relationships that I've identified myself through. It is letting go of roles that I've taken on of being a caregiver or of being a fixer or of being this person or that person. It is becoming like Ram Dass would say, it's becoming nobody.

Yeah.

And that is scary.

Yeah.

There's 3 points that I want before I forget what you said is the way I look at that is from 3 different perspectives. One, it's the more you heal, the less reactive you are. So I think the true purpose of any type of therapeutic engagement is removing as many reactive conscious and unconscious responses to everything that puts you at least into a state of neutrality, to be as neutral as possible, to not be pulled or swayed into an autonomic response, right? That pattern-conditioned response to only go into fight-or-flight survival And the more ways that we heal all those things, the more we get to neutral. Now, the more we get to neutral, then we're starting to build momentum, and then we can start being proactive before those things even pop up. That will allow us to move further and further and further away from those things that would cause us to have those difficulties in the first place. Reframe, rethink, not even get stuck in, right? AKA no longer attracting the crap that we used to attract, right? That's, that's number one. Number two, I think I see it as like, we were talking about like if you're 28 years old or you're 50 years old, it's grooves in a record. Record, right? For those of us who have a nice little LP collection over there in the corner. And, um, we do too. Yeah, nice. So it's right— the more— the question is, is if you keep playing that record over and over again, is that groove going to get deeper? Is that needle going to keep getting groove? And then, you know, it's never going to jump out into a different track by itself. You have to like pick up the needle and the arm and put it literally intentionally on another track to play a different song. Right? So you can't get there, right? Like you're saying before, you can't get there from there. You have to literally do something to do that. And the third thing is from the, unfortunately, the late, great psychologist Kurt Cobain, who once said, "I like the comfort in being sad." And I think that is a perfect expression of that record. It's a perfect expression of that scripting. This is safer. It's safer to be stuck. It's safer to be in this journey. It's safer to be in this relationship. It's safer to accept these things. It's safer to buy into story than it is— that's comfortable— than it is to risk feeling what I don't yet know could be out there for me if I've never felt that before. I don't even believe that I even am capable or deserving of that. So I think like, that's kind of like the 3, you know, different angles. And I'm sure there are more that I would share that with my, my clients. Exactly spot on with everything you guys just said in regards to that.

What that, that last piece that you said reminds me of something one of my podcast guests, this guy is like a Canadian SWAT Special Forces person. He said, we know what happens to people in boxes is they tend to stay in boxes. Right. And so if you've come to learn that this box of your sadness is safe, and you feel comfortable here, because not too much is asked of you, you're going to stay in there. And you mentioned before this fear that people have of if I let go of this identity, then like, what else is there for me. And I feel like that's the fear of stepping out of this box and then being in the entire open world and having nothing around you, right? And so to actually tie this back to your last question of like, where do people start? I think I, I agree it's too much of a jump to go from I'm in my little box where I feel safe, but I'm also sad and my life is miserable and I'm not moving in the right direction. You don't have to burn that box to the ground and then start from scratch. I think that you can build yourself a new box that we can learn to step into, or we can slowly start to leave the old patterns and the old beliefs behind, and willfully sort of adopt a new image about yourself. I think that's where people run into trouble is if they— or even like a psychotic break, when they leave behind everything they knew about themselves, and now they're left with nothing, right? I think you have to sort of start to build a new framework that you are choosing to step into. And again, going back to your question of where do people start, that's kind of why we have the program that we've built around microdosing is to give people that starting place and to walk them through the process of what do I actually want my life to look like if I were to leave behind everything that I am now? Like, who do I even want to become? And then we can start to build a bridge to get there because you're right, it's, it's too big of a jump to just eschew everything that I define myself by and then have nothing, right? I guess really that's what enlightenment would be from like the Zen Buddhist perspective of leaving everything behind. I don't think that enlightenment would actually be fun because then you couldn't play with your dog and you couldn't enjoy good food. I don't think that's the aim. I think just building a better box for yourself to step into. I think at least as a starting point, that's where most modern Americans should come at this from, is if I have to live inside some box that I create for myself, How can I start choosing to create that for myself instead of having it handed to me by society or by my trauma? And what do I want that new box to look like?

Yeah, and the integration, Courtney, that you were talking about before, I think that's the key step, right? And the support system in the community and knowing you're not doing this alone and finding the right therapeutic team if it needs, right? Obviously, sometimes it needs to be hand in hand. Because I know that there's a lot of people are just like, well, I'm just going to do this and I don't need a therapist anymore. I'm gonna go to my therapist, but maybe I do need this as well. But also knowing like, who are the therapists out there that are like, totally down and supportive of this? And that's, you know, popping up more and more and more and more and more. Thankfully, that's the good thing about this. But not all of us therapists are yet experts in supporting fully, or, you know, at least some level we can reintegrate after a session. If they've done something right, if they've done an ayahuasca retreat, which I have done with my clients to help them reintegrate as part of their our, you know, board of, board of advisors. But I know I'm not going to be or shouldn't be the only person doing that, because I haven't gone there yet for myself.

Yeah. And this, Courtney and I were actually just talking about this last night, about how we haven't encountered too many people that we've worked with having a challenging time integrating after. And I think a huge reason for that is that we actually put so much emphasis on preparing for the experience in the first place. So if you've gone into it having done everything possible to prepare to have the best experience possible—

weeks and months—

yeah, you're, you're not that you won't ever have a challenging time afterwards, but you're setting yourself up for success versus setting yourself up for failure, right?

Yeah. No, I hear people, they're like, oh no, I'm going away next week and I'm just going to do, you know, I'm supposed to have a vegetarian diet for the last couple of days and no alcohol and it's just one week. Of like, that's good. I mean, that's better than what most people are doing, and they should probably have a healthier, cleaner diet no matter what. And no, like, wow, you can go— wow, impressive, you're not drinking for a whole week. That's pretty good in 2022, 2023. Like, I'm shocked. Like, God, so maybe you need to do more ayahuasca or any of these type of retreats that require this of you, because other things will just be handled just because of you doing that the week before.

Well, it's, it's funny, like, I chose to do my first ayahuasca retreat because I was I was in such a low place in my life, and I've fallen off from my habits of meditating and journaling and reading and, and just not being a piece of shit generally. And so it was almost like someone—

that was the diagnosis, piece of shit.

Yeah, it's like if someone's really out of shape and they sign up for a marathon to force themselves to get—

yeah, yeah, February 19th, half marathon. I started January 1st.

That's what I did with ayahuasca. I was like, if I don't fix my behaviors, I'm have a really bad time.

Yeah.

And so I almost gave myself this deadline to sort of get my life back on track so that I would have a more constructive experience.

Love it. Yeah. Courtney, you want to add something?

Just to tag on a little bit on that and what David was saying is the integration becomes a lot easier if you prepare for it. And that doesn't mean, you know, like rigorous. It is very And this is something that's always— now that I've been on this path for a while, it's not these grand things. It is the details. It is the small things that you do every single day. If you can sit with yourself for 5 minutes every day and meditate, great. Like, you're going to have such a better time being in an ayahuasca ceremony than if you've never looked at yourself. Because think of all the people who never take even 5 minutes to reflect on themselves or just just be with themselves without outside stimulus. And then all of a sudden you're in a ceremony that lasts a few hours, if not all night, and you are thrown into the deep end of this is the only thing that exists is you with yourself. And so I think it comes back to, again, like starting to build that relationship with yourself of what, you know, just observing your thoughts, of starting to express emotions and like recognize all of these things, of having support of having a little bit of a roadmap and a little thread to follow, because for one, you're going to have a much easier time in a plant medicine ceremony or psychedelic experience. It doesn't mean, like David said, it's not going to be challenging, because sometimes that is just where the medicine takes us, and that is okay. And I would argue that very often we learn the most from these incredibly challenging experiences. However, you're able to— and this is something where, like, I think that's a common misconception where people say, oh, the medicine will give you the experience, whatever that you need.

Right.

And to an extent, yes. But that does not mean that you're a passive passenger. You are an active agent in your journey. That doesn't mean that you can control where it's going to go, but that means that you can have interaction and a relationship with the plant. You can ask things, you can ask for things to be shown to you. You can almost like— and this is how I've, how I have it in my mind, because that is what has been the visual for me in a few of these experiences where my mind is like a house with 1,000 rooms. And I'm so afraid of like looking at these, this broom closet because like I've not looked in there for like ages. I'm afraid of like what what's going on behind that door. But instead of just being thrown in that, I can choose to walk through it and deliberately open certain doors and take a look at what is there and then consciously start to clean out whatever needs to clean out. And so I think just again, not outsourcing anything like you recognizing the power that you hold within all of these tools that you have. I ultimately, I don't need plant medicine to take me there. People can get there with meditation. You can get there with chanting. It does not really matter. And so I think that's a little bit of a problem that I see too, where people look at ayahuasca, they look at psilocybin, they look at MDMA therapy or like ketamine especially too, as this is going to fix me, right? That's just not what it is. And Lao Tzu says that nature doesn't rush, yet everything gets accomplished. So also recognizing that the way that especially plant medicines work It's not on our schedule. It's not on— this is, you know, like, it's in and out in an hour. Yeah, exactly. And I'm going to be healed forever. That's just not what it is. And I know that we love Amazon Prime. We love a quick fix. We love take an aspirin and you're going to be fine in 30 minutes. That is just not how it works. And I think we need to go away from these instant gratifications and start seeing a bigger picture of if I do these small things for myself every single day.

Yeah.

And imagine in a year, in 5 years, in 10 years, like you were saying, building that momentum. And what it all comes back to me, what you were saying earlier about the neutral ground, I think. And when we come from yoga and a lot of these disciplines, being in the present moment, so you're not reacting from a place of past pain, but you are able to take a breath to bring yourself, like you said, to that that neutral ground to stand on and then decide, how am I going to act? And not being a slave to your thoughts or your emotion or your physical responses. And it doesn't mean that you're in that state all the time. But that means extending those glimpses that you get. And what I think is ayahuasca and plant medicines, they show us that this is possible, because most of us. And until I've sat with ayahuasca, I never thought that that state of being was possible, let alone this is something that I could be in. However, I think it is helpful to see that and to experience that because your body, every cell of your body will remember that for the rest of your life. If you've done plant medicine in a setting that is safe, supportive, that is integrated well, You will never forget that experience. And this is something where you can almost reverse engineer of, I know this is possible. I know this form and feeling of unconditional love, of feeling at peace, of feeling at home. That is something that is out there. And then you have all of these tools and practices of whether that is yoga, whether it is meditation, whether that is a movement practice, whether it is journaling, just being with yourself, you can get there. And I think that plant medicines too just get very easily overused and not as integrated. And I think we have to remember that as much as these ethereal realms are— can be incredible, we're here to have a human experience. And what does that look like? How can I have a human experience that is more integrated, where I actually live life and experience life in the depth of everything and all the nuances, where I'm able to have childlike wonder and curiosity, where I'm able to meet people where they're at without the walls and barriers of how old are you, what's your status, what car are you driving, where are you from? But where we can actually, again, like be present not just with ourselves but with the other person. And I would argue That is the gift of plant medicine, to show us that that is possible. And that is what we want to do. So we want to, on one hand, connect people to experiences that are actually safe and also have people recognize you have so much power than you think. Like, you are your own medicine. You are your own guru. You're your own healer. Anyone who tells you I'm your guru, I'm your healer.

Run.

Run. Yeah, for real.

And it's reminding me of years ago, I was considering moving out to Boulder, Colorado, and I connected with a little community there. And subsequently, someone I was supposed to meet there through my friends in the Jewish community there happened to be— when he was a kid, my dad taught him how to swim at this Grand Scranton Jewish Community Center, Scranton, Pennsylvania, right? The home of the made-up American office, and, uh, which is where I was born. And so he's older than me, he's a few years older than me, but we were supposed to— we met through, because, you know, he was a realtor in that place, and, um, his wife at the time was a, was a therapist. So I was like, I'm gonna hear about like what's it like to live there, plus what's it like to work there, and right, so whatever. Anyway, so he subsequently become one of my best friends, and I, I joke that like there's because, you know, when you're talking about like being connected to people and you're talking about like consciousness and, and, you know, going deeper and being around people who are deeper, I've realized that— I joke that like I want people to ask questions like they— to me, like they ask it in Boulder. It's not, how are you? It's, so what are you working on? What are you— what are you going through these days? What are you wanting to— what are you—

what are you hoping to—

and I'm like— and I saw that consistently in certain places. Boulder was my first consistent place of going to over and over again where I would see that happen often in a very specific community there. But I know that's kind of like, well, no one's like asking, "Well, what do you do for work?" and "Do you have cryptocurrency?" and "Have you checked the news today and heard about what's going on with X, Y, and Z?" I mean, there are people who are doing that, but like, "Who are you? What's your mission? What are you working on? Is there anything I can do to help you with that? Is there anybody I can do to connect you? Who can I connect you with that I might know?" Right? Deeper than the surface. And I think that if that's what we can hope to have happen with other people, I think those are the hope that I hope— the hope that I hope my clients and what you— the people your community is working with can ask themselves, who are you? What's your mission? What are you working on right now? What do you need help with? How can you be more gentle to yourself? How can you be more strategic with this? Who else can you invite in to help you get there? Oh, you think you have to do it alone? No, no, we're gonna let go of that. Right? All those things that I think it's that in that, what we have around us is, is just basically right, that manifestation of our beliefs internally. So I think that's the beauty of what you're saying. And I think there is an efficiency to a lot of these tools. There's an efficiency to neuro-emotional technique, there's an efficiency to plant medicine, and the resistance that our body or our mind-body gives off is because that's a place that we've built a lot of stuckness around.

And something that boggles my mind a little bit, just when we think about these things for honestly, literally longer than 5 minutes. If I am, say I have cancer and I will not just do 2 minutes of research and just go to the next best doctor that's convenient, that's right there, that has an opening the next day and don't check where did he go to school or like maybe what's their credentials. But I will do my research. I will ask for recommendations. I will spend literally longer than 5 minutes to put my physical health into the hands of someone who is actually able to help me. And so what I see, because this is all a very new field, so we don't know what that is. We don't know the, the longitudinal potential for healing that it can bring. And we also underestimate vastly the potential for deep trauma that can happen. There's a lot of sexual abuse, there's a lot of misconduct, there's a lot of misalignment on integrity and ethics, as there is in every field. Exactly. And so because this is a very new field, it's not a—

it's not the oversight, right? The oversight isn't there yet. But even in movement, right? I mean, you know, there's that, right? The yogi, the yogi guy, what's his name?

Who?

Osho.

Yeah, right.

Osho. And then, uh, and then, um, the Bikram, right? That the documentary Bikram. And right, I mean, that was— so it happens, right? And then you have all those other— every— right, so, right, anything, right? So you do need some oversight. We do need some connectivity. We need some people to keep an eye on stuff at some level, right?

So, and I think it comes back to just discernment and like asking the right questions for everybody, where like, first of all, trust your intuition. Like, if someone feels a little off, maybe listen to that, you know, and maybe don't just buy into the, you know, like the glitz and glory, but you, you know, you're actually discerning and then recognizing that plant medicine shouldn't necessarily be convenient. There are a lot of people, and I've worked with a lot of people where they have one experience and they're good for the rest of their lives. And so why wouldn't you value yourself enough to literally put in more than 10 minutes of research, if at all, to have this potentially life-changing experience, just as you would if you were to work with a therapist, if you were to, you know, work with a nutritional coach, if you were to work with a personal trainer. And I think that is something that I really want to encourage anyone listening is value yourself and your health, like physically, emotionally, spiritually enough to ask questions, to do a little bit of research, to not just have a referral maybe from one person, but to— and think a little bit outside of where can I Uber to conveniently? Because there's, you know, in Boulder too, like there's a lot of like ayahuasca happening in the mountains of Boulder. And I was just recently working with a girl who came away from one of these quote unquote healing retreats being neurologically fucked up, being completely in a psychotic breakdown, having zero help from the quote unquote shamans, right, that had no training, no business serving that. And that is something that— and I actually, it's interesting, I trained in Boulder. So like a lot of my physical, physical, a lot of my psychedelic therapy training I did at a clinic in Boulder. And the common thing even back then, like 3 or 4 years ago, was a lot of the work that we do always clean up the mess from other shamans. And I think just inviting people to think about this for a little bit longer and not just do that because it's trendy, but to do a little bit of research to, like you said, like watch the documentaries. Michael Pollan— I've only read the book, I've not watched the series, but Michael Pollan is great. You know, like Graham Hancock is fantastic. There's Tim Ferriss now, and there's so—

RB Marcus, Paul Stamets, they have the whole on the mushroom.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, I heard him.

He's the OG. Yeah, he's the OG of all these.

So yeah, but just, you know, there is so much information out there and now there are like Maps, there are platforms that connect you to people that are vetted, that are practicing with integrity, with, you know, in and outside of the United States. And I think just, you know, really taking this seriously and not just jumping into something because of out of scarcity or a need for something, but just approaching it with, you know, first of all, respecting yourself, but also respecting indigenous traditions, respecting the medicine, and knowing that this is the journey of a lifetime. Like, once you embark on this with intention, it doesn't mean that you go back to ayahuasca all the time. But what it means is that it sets you on a path for the rest of your life that is approached with deeper respect for yourself, with more intention about everything that you do, and asking yourself these questions. Who am I? What do I like to do? What do I need? What help can I accept and maybe call in for myself? And like Ram Dass says, we're all just walking each other home like we are. Again, like when we think of most of human history, we've lived in community, we've lived in relationship with other people, and especially in the US and especially through COVID, we've gotten incredibly isolated. And I need to do this alone and I can't trust anybody and going away from that and changing the story to we can do this. And it doesn't mean that we're going backward. It just means that we're walking towards a more aligned future. And what does my spirit need? You know, what does my heart need? How do I— in what situations do I feel happy or, you know, at least content or at peace? And You know, there's these connected— exactly. And there's these beautiful, you know, like studies from— not even just studies, but just, you know, people are asked at the end of their life of what their regrets are and what do they wish that they had done more of. No one says, oh my God, I wish I had worked more, I wish I had built this company better.

I wish I had argued on Twitter more.

I know it always comes back to love and community and connection. And that is the simple message of Yeah, plant medicine. It is love yourself, love others, be at peace. Like simplicity. We overcomplicate so many things and I think it's not doing more, it's doing less and just being much more discerning in how do I want to spend my time? Who do I want to spend my time with? Like what do I enjoy doing? Maybe doing more of that.

It's all very simple at the core. Yeah, so as we get to our close, because I know our time's— my side's up. One, I want to thank you because, again, there's not enough good, consistent, quality resources. And I really just— the simplest way, if anybody has really connected to this or they're interested and they just want one concise place to go that has really good resources and shows some of the research and points in the right direction of where else to go and please visit their website. It's becomingom.com, and you can follow them there on social media and the like. And right there's the retreats and data and some research and all that other cool stuff. I know I wish I had more time today to go even deeper than we already go, so maybe we'll have a round 2 in the near future. But thank you, for one, for being brave enough to go through your own experiences, for your own self, because that's kind of why I exist, is to help people, help them realize that they can do that. And to, to now for you to be doing that in your— to guiding other people and doing what we needed to do for ourselves. So, and thanks for hanging out with us.

Well, thank you, man. Thanks for giving us the chance to talk, and thank you for the work that you do as a licensed therapist who's one of the good ones in this upcoming wave of, you know, psychedelics hitting the mainstream. I think that we We need people like you. We need more people like you and people who are willing to talk to people like us who aren't the clinical side, but are kind of doing this in the real world. And I, I, I really appreciate you very much, man.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Well, it's hopefully gonna hap— happen more and more and more.

And yeah, let's do it.

I think that's where the partnerships are, right? That's where partnerships come from. And, and, and things do get solved when, when you look more outside the box like we were talking about before. But again, like anybody who— guys, please, like, if you're listening to this and you really got any benefit, there was a new insight. One, leave a review. Two, go to their social media. I read it's becoming.om if I'm not mistaken on Instagram, right? Becoming.om on Instagram. Again, becomingom.com on the website, but you can check out all from their Linktree, or you can check out from the website all the different courses and trainings and research and all that stuff like that. Or if you want to go down and do a retreat and hang out in all these cool places, then definitely please reach out to David and Courtney. We'll talk to you guys soon. Sounds good.

Thank you.

Thanks.

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