Ep.160-Life Takes Emotional Intelligence with Robin Hills

This is the You Winning Life podcast, your number one source for mastering a positive existence. Each episode, we'll be interviewing exceptional people, giving you empowering insights and guiding you to extraordinary outcomes. Learn from specialists in the worlds of integrative and natural wellness, spirituality, psychology, and entrepreneurship so you too can be winning life. Now here's your host, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified neuro-emotional technique practitioner, trainer and certified entrepreneur coach Jason Wasser.

Ah, all right everybody, welcome back. So I'm hanging out with Robin. Thanks for, thanks for spending some time with us today.

Oh, thank you so much, Jason. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

So, so for those of, uh, for those of you who, uh, haven't been part of our pre-conversation, you guys know now, like everybody's listening should know that every guest and I have a pre-hitting record conversation And, you know, if you're hearing the audio and you're not watching the video, you can— you're already going to hear that we've been cracking up for the last few minutes. And I'm, you know, already enjoying my time. And so, Robin, before we go into the psychology and the business and the entrepreneurship stuff, share with everybody a little bit about who you are, where you are, and how you ended up in this crazy space of like business psychology.

Yeah, most definitely. I did a degree in biology, or I graduated in biology, or I got honors in biology. I can't remember what you call it over the water. I'm in the United Kingdom, and I graduated with a degree in biology physiology. Ooh, last century. And I actually still use what I've learned very much in the business world. I went into medical selling following my degree. I wanted to do something completely different. But at the same time use my biology. And I found that going out and influencing and persuading people, doctors, nurses, clinicians, to utilize medicines more appropriately was a good way of engaging with them and utilizing my biological background. And I did that for about a quarter of a century, and then my role was made redundant. So I moved into clinical research to get some leadership and management training. Looking after people and managing their contracts. And after a few years, the role was made redundant. So I thought, you know, I can do something a little bit better than that. I could make myself redundant if I want to. So I set myself up in business. And whilst it has been incredibly, incredibly hard, Jason, in the first few years, I'm in a really good place now. And quite honestly, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. It has been and I've focused in on the concept of emotional intelligence, really, because that underpins everything that we do as human beings.

Yeah. So this idea of emotional intelligence, I know, right, Daniel Goleman, if I'm not mistaken, was the, the first, the person who really put out that thick book that I remember when I was— I actually didn't even know I was going to become a therapist at this point, but I remember buying that book and I had to be 2 '99, 2000, or 2001. I don't even know where the book is at this point. I'm looking around on all my bookshelves, but I know I have it somewhere.

I can't see it on your bookshelf.

Yeah, oh, they're there. They're multiple. And I'm actually— one of my goals for the rest of 2023 is to start downsizing my physical books and putting them onto Kindle format. So yeah, because, you know, technology is wonderful. But I remember seeing this book and then starting to go through it, and I'm like, okay, this is daunting. One, it's like a It's a thick book and two, like, not always so easy to understand. And I didn't have any graduate training in this level of psychology yet. So just for people who, one, may have heard this term or have heard this term, what's your personal definition of emotional intelligence?

My personal definition is very, very simple. Let's condense that thick book down to a few succinct sentences. Love it.

Please.

Emotional intelligence is being smart with your feelings. It's combining your thinking with your emotions in order to make good quality decisions and build up authentic relationships. That's it. There's nothing more complex than that. However, however, it's incredibly hard to do, and I've spent a lifetime trying to do it. Some people get it and they're really good at it very, very quickly. But I'm not, I wasn't, and I don't think I ever will be. But it gives me an opportunity to really practice what I preach and go out there and try things out. And if they don't work, then just alter the way in which I do it. And sometimes it works really, really well, and sometimes it doesn't. But as long as I get more positive hits with it than negative, then Yeah, okay, that'll do for me.

And you're on the right path.

It's okay.

The word that I'm hearing from that— and I use this word twice, so I had a few sessions this morning because it's lunchtime here for me now— is I shared this with 2 out of the 3 sessions that I work with, is what's the recalibration you need to do? And a lot of people forget that, right? And I think what you just described is a version of that, of going out, you're learning something new, you put your training wheels on with this new information, you go out and you try it, and then you come back like, okay, this worked, this didn't work. Now let me go back and let me go go back to the drawing board and recalibrate it. I find that a lot of people are so— they're sticking to what they know. They might be learning new stuff. They go out there and like, didn't work. And then they just abandon everything and go back to their default mode.

Sure, sure. Well, let me give you a really good example about that, around that, because a lot of people will come into the emotional intelligence space and will look at ways in which they can become more assertive. Now, a lot of people think that assertion is aggression, and it's not. It's a case of succinctly stating your needs and getting yourself heard. Now, people don't necessarily have to agree with that. You don't have to force your needs on them, but as long as people are hearing those needs and taking them into consideration, then you're being assertive. Now, people who've been fairly shy and retiring and fairly timid suddenly want to become more assertive. So they go out into the world, they practice their assertion skills, and it flips the other way. They put it over in an aggressive way, and people will react negatively to that, and there will be an upward spiral of aggression where the person thinks, "Do you know, I'm not enjoying this." So they go back to being the timid, shy, retiring person that they always were. Simply because it's too much like hard work. So again, it's a case of getting the calibration right.

Yeah.

And I can even see some people maybe even saying, okay, so I don't think it's working. And then they double or triple down on that tactic and then it makes it even worse. But they're like, well, now I feel better. I'm telling everybody what I want. I'm always putting it out there. You know, it's like that joke. One of the many versions of this joke is what happens when a vegan an CrossFit athlete walks into a bar.

Oh, I've not heard that one.

Everybody knows because they tell them in 30 seconds that they're a vegan and a CrossFitter athlete, right? So, so it's like they're doubling, right? It's that double down. I'm gonna triple down. I'm like a triple down, and I'm gonna make you know, you know, right? I know you, right? It's, it's the joke is also about Harvard or Yale or whatever, right? It's like, you know, Harvard person walks into a bar and everybody knows because they told them that they went to Harvard. So, um, if I touched a nerve there You have a Harvard connection right now. That'll be playful. But it's about anybody can do that in a way that they would seem like we talked a little bit about positive and negative, but in a way that I like using the way that is it serving you to be more joyous and connected, or is it not allowing you to be more joyous and connected?

Yeah. And how can you have a warm relationship with the other person that you're connecting with? And if you can do that in an assertive way, it will then mean that you're managing your emotions. You're combining your thinking with your feelings and you're building the relationship through good quality decision-making. It's emotional intelligence.

So it's moving from— I guess the way I would describe that with my clients would be you're moving from a reactive place to a neutral place to a proactive place.

Yes, yes. And that transition from, uh, being reactive to proactive takes a lot of energy. It's breaking the habits of a lifetime, and it's not going to be easy.

Yeah, so let's talk about it from that biological perspective, because I love that space. And I was literally just talking to my last client before we jumped on, um, about the two things that I'm so excited have come into the mental health therapy space, and it's trickling down obviously also into coaching, um, is all the neurology of everything, the neurology and the biology of things, um, and then we can get into all the psychedelics and plant medicine and all that stuff that's causing a lot of healing. And I know a lot of entrepreneurs are stepping into that, the biohacking of the brain and stuff, but that's a different conversation. But from your perspective of biology, can you give us a quick rundown of what you see, what we're predisposed to be doing and what this work helps over, helps us develop?

Well, I think the interesting thing is that as intact, integrated human beings in society, when we are working with our thinking, when we're working with our feelings, we've got to decide that, or we've got to know that they occur within our brain. Now, that's not very intuitive because where on earth in our body is that happening? You and I know, and everybody else knows because we've all seen the diagrams, we've all seen the pictures. But Where does it occur? Does it occur in our head? If you don't know anything about biology, there's this question as to where this actually happens. Does it happen in my left foot? Does it happen in my kneecap? Does it happen in my stomach? Where does this thinking and feeling happen? Now, because you and I know, and your listeners know, that it happens within our head, that's where the focus of thinking and feeling actually occurs.

The seed of it.

Yeah, yes, yes. But what we've got to do— and I find that a lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of people within the business world know very, very, very little about biology, basic biology. And we're not training people when we're engaging with them to become neuroscientists. All we're doing is just saying to them, look, just consider your brain. Just consider it at a very basic level. Just consider it as having three components. Now I know the, the triune brain has come up for a lot of stuff.

Favorite.

Yeah, there is a good model associated with that which works, and if we use it appropriately, then it will help people to understand bit of basic physiology. So we've got what's inappropriately labeled the reptilian brain, which is the brainstem and the basal ganglia, and they're responsible for unconscious physiological processes, some of which we have control over and some of which we have absolutely no control over. So things like, um, I can stop my breathing consciously, but I can only do it for so long because eventually that part of the brain will kick in and make me take a gulp of air in order to get the oxygen that I need. But I can't say to it, oh, well, just switch my pancreas off for 10 seconds. That's not possible. So I, you know, we know that there is that bit of the brain, and then above it, within the middle part of the brain, is the limbic system, the limbic ring, which is termed the emotional brain. Now This part of the brain processes emotions. So we've got the amygdala, we've got hippocampus all within it. You don't need to know the terminology. All that you need to know is that this part of the brain filters the emotions. Now, where do the emotions occur? We don't know. Do they occur within the limbic system or do they occur within the next part of the brain, the cortex, the neocortex, where some of the rational decisions are made? So we've got all these parts of the brain all interacting and working together. And beyond that, we don't really need to let business people know much more. So we've got the, the limbic system, the emotional part of the brain, which has no language processing capabilities. It all it does is filter them and combines the, the with the physiology and the psychology in order that we can make a decision around the environment that we're operating within. It's the rational thinking part of the brain that actually then kicks in that will help us in terms of the decisions that we make around that.

Literally, it's as if you jumped into any of my sessions when you share that, which is so fascinating, wonderful. Like, you know, those who are listening, you can't see me grinning ear to ear as, as he was, as, as Robin was just sharing all of this with us. And, and I, you know, I love sharing these, the Triune Brain lens, because when you see how people can get pulled into fight or flight survival mode, yeah, right, old instincts, habitual stuckness, whatever it is, you know, in a lot of ways I even avoid the word self-sabotage because yourself can't sabotage you because your truest self is always looking out to protect you, right? That reptile, that reptilian part of your brain, the survival brain. But that what I love explaining and adding on to the to the mammalian part of your brain is that it's timeless, timeless memories. And that our brain, right, the rational part of our brain will filter that to determine, is there similar enough that I go then into the reptilian brain? Is this something I want to approach or I want to avoid? And that's where that part of the brain can overpower— that limbic system can overpower our rational strategic brain and therefore create what what has previously been called self-sabotage, but really it's just maladaptive stress patterns that are keeping you stuck in a filtering for survival versus approaching and using it in a way that can be beneficial.

Yes. And then going back to our earlier part of the conversation, people then become proactive or reactive. So the whole idea of fight and flight is very, very basic, but quite honestly, it works. And there's no more complicated, uh, addition to that other than the fact that we've got 4 reactions to a certain situation. We either flee from it— flight— we stand up and attack— we fight— we have complete indifference to the situation, so we've got no emotion around it whatsoever, or we freeze. And we've You've got those 4 basic survival mechanisms that respond to the environment. There's nothing more complex than that. So stripping down all the niceties down to one of those 4 will help people to understand their reactions to certain events.

Yeah, and I just did have that with a conversation with a couple this morning where I said, and I explained this to them exactly verbatim what you just said, and I said, okay, I want you to go back to the time frame in which you met. 16 years ago, 18 years ago, with all the life, right? And you're on date 2. Based on how you respond to conflict and trauma, which one or two of these were you predisposed to at that point that now looking back you had no clue that that's why you were responding to your new partner in that way? And now imagine building up 18 years of a relationship not knowing that you were predisposed to doing that, aka you never had a chance, right? So now that if you know this and you can figure it out, and the way I like deciphering it with clients is that let's start going through all the things that you view as a challenge in your life. And then let's go through all the things that you felt were easy when the challenge came up. Put like, let's make a spreadsheet out of that. Let's do a list of all these challenges. Here's all the things that happened to me positively and what would be, you would seem negative, which I know we're going to get into that, those frameworks of positive, negative. But for the sake of simplicity that you seemed as a, right, this was good, this was bad.

Right? Yeah.

And then let's put in your predisposed— let's go through that. Let's go now through this list and put in fight, flight, flee, or fawn in that, right? Fawning is pleasing to appeasing for those who are familiar with that term, right? And that's the newer— Stephen Porges has been talking about that in the polyvagal theory. But put which one you are predisposed to for this category, theme, or topic. And then you're going to have a dominant thing, and then you're gonna have something that flips to the other side for these other things, right? So, but if we know what your dominant what one or two traits are in response to this, then we can start tackling that. But if you don't know it, you don't know how your nervous system is, is responding to perceived threats or agreements in a way that allows you to be strategic about this. So I love how you write the 3 Brain Theory. I'm going with every single day. I'm using that when it, when it comes through to businesses, right? Makes sense logically, simply. When it comes to relationships, when it comes to parenting, when it comes to friends, when it comes to social dynamics. I find that entrepreneurs shut that emotional side off because it becomes a risk to them. The vulnerability of emotions is a risk.

Yeah, and a lot of entrepreneurs will— well, particularly senior executives in large corporate organizations will actually say, we don't do emotions here, we leave that to Barry Manilow. And, uh, quite honestly, yes, you do do emotions. And if you want your people to be happy and to work in a contented way, there's no point in creating a culture of fear and anger just simply because you happen to be frustrated and anxious because you're not hitting your targets with regards to what the shareholders are expecting. Yeah, so how do you manage your emotions in an appropriate way in order to get the outcomes that you're looking for? Now, there are going to be certain times when you need to go along and reprimand people because they're not performing as well as they could or should be. But if they're not performing as well as they could or should be, listen to them, find out why they aren't, rather than just assuming that you know that they're not working hard enough. So there's a whole host of things that need to go along, but we're behind that.

Do you— so I had a conversation in a business accountability group that I am in, and they were talking about the staff that they have now versus the staff that they used to have when they bought and sold a new practice. Is, you know, this idea of, but I'm hitting walls with them. And my offering to them was, well, you're only going to hit the walls to the extent of the work that you've done on yourself around that particular topic. And of course you're going to attract, you know, I don't mean like necessarily like, you know, law of attraction type of perspective, but you're only going to hire and retain and inspire and engage with them only to the level of your own personal understanding, but never any better than that because of the work that you haven't done. And, and I think that's kind of where, you know, that, that idea of every business owner has the business succeeding only to the level of their own personal growth and personal insights and self-awareness and emotional capability or emotional intelligence. And therefore, that's just a reflection. That person, that the biggest pain in the ass employee, is really just a reflection of one. Well, what didn't you see that you shouldn't have hired in the first place? What are you tolerating, right? What are the things that, like, you use that as a scapegoat for something you haven't worked on in your own self? All the different variations of that. Walk us through a little bit of that from your perspective.

Yeah, most definitely. And as you say, a lot of people will hire people based upon what they think the business needs. They don't necessarily do it in an emotionally intelligent way because they don't have the emotional intelligence themselves to understand what it is that they're looking for. So quite honestly, a lot of CEOs will need people who challenge them, who irritate them, who cause them anxiety and cause some problems because they are thinking and behaving and doing things in a different way to what they're doing. They may be doing it in a better way. It's just you've got to allow them to do the job that you've employed them to do and not tell them what you think they ought to be doing because that's the way you would have done it, or that's what you want. And a lot of leaders and managers that I work with have issues with the people that they have— I don't like using the word underneath them— have working for them, because they make an assumption that they're not performing in the way in which the leader needs or the leader wants. And what they've got to do is to recognize that those people are paid to do a job that that leader isn't going to do. So if you're not going to do it as a leader, why are you employing somebody else to do that job and then trying to influence the way in which they do that job by telling them what it is that you want them to do? Give them a little bit of an opportunity to be innovative, to break the rules, to go out there and try something different, to be accountable and see what works.

Yeah, question I like asking is, if this employee— if you asked your employee, if you were the owner of this business, and say it with love and say it with strategicness. In other words, what, what problems or challenges do you see? And how would you go about fixing it? And what would you get rid of completely? What would you enhance? What would you— if this was your business, what would you do? No, like, in other words, like, what's the buy-in that we don't allow an employee to have? Because one, they're— it's not my business. And especially in family businesses, I see this a lot where they don't feel like they have an ownership and they feel like they're just hired help. And that's the worst place you can feel is I'm just hired help and I'm here to get your job done, but I'm here to do it on your— but you're the one getting all the success credit and kudos and the financial benefits. And I'm just— I'm replaceable. So I'm going to do enough to not be replaced, but not much more than that. I'm always going to be one step ahead of, you know, the threshold of being replaced. So you really can't get rid of me because it's a bigger pain in the ass to replace me. Than would be just to keep me. And that's what happens, right? I feel like that's the lowest common denominator that a lot of people play. And do you— and, you know, have you ever used that practice on a different scale in any way, shape, or form? Because I don't know if I'm the only one that's doing that at the little level that I'm playing at compared to the level that you're playing at.

Oh, most definitely. I mean, there's this very, very good question there: if this was your business, what would you do? Now, the way in which it's phrased, the way in which it's delivered, will have an impact on the person receiving that question. And obviously, the, the person who's actually asking that question is going to influence. And I think a lot of that is then underpinned by trust, because if it is a senior person who individual reports into either first or second or maybe even third line, then there may be a level of intimidation in giving an honest answer to that question because they don't know whether those answers are going to come back and bite them at some point. And I do know that that happened to me in one of my roles when I spoke to a manager and gave some really honest positive affirmative feedback around what I thought the organization ought to be doing and how I responded to certain tasks and certain instructions. I did find that that suddenly appeared in my appraisal a few months later, and I was marked down for holding and expressing those views. So I think one's got to be very, very, very, very careful, and this is the importance of relationship building, but more importantly, trust comes in.

Yeah, well, that sounds like a cultural shift as a whole where I would think the person hiring at that point will say early on or in an interview process, are, are you the type of person to be comfortable? In other words, we want to create this environment for our employees and for our team is that there's going to be times where we're going to ask you these possible questions and we want to make sure that we create a culture around wanting you to be invested in thinking about things this way, outside of maybe you have a specific job description or a task. But we would love to hear some creative thoughts, and we might ask you this down the road at a meeting. And how can we as a company— I think from a company perspective, I think if companies incorporate that culture from top to bottom proactively, not reactively, then we can have a lot more of that happening and that free flow engaged, uh, way.

Yeah, I, I, if I was sitting there hearing that in an interview, I, I'm going to be perfectly honest with you, Jason, I would, uh, take it on board. I would think, I like what I'm hearing, uh, this sounds like the type of organization that I would want to work for, they are saying the right things, but the trust isn't Yeah, I don't know whether it's just a whole load of words that they say at every interview. So what I would do is, if I'm given the opportunity to join that organization, keep that at the back of my mind. That is the culture that they are striving for. And then I test it as an individual and see whether they are genuine in terms of delivering that outcome. It may be that they're quite happy to say whatever they want at interviews to land the right person. Yeah, but the reality is not quite as it should be when you're actually immersed in the job.

Yeah.

And kind of 3 to 6 months in the role, you think it's not really quite how I was—

it's not adding up, right?

Yeah, it's not.

We're forward-thinking, we're a progressive company with these things.

And yeah, with any ideas.

Yeah, right, exactly.

Our way, we know what works. Well, right.

And I guess maybe the way I was saying it was I was implying that the company is actually committing to that and demonstrating that. In other words, right, there is no, there is no culture of retaliation. There is no culture. There is a culture of humility. There is a culture of vulnerability. There is a culture of, yes, I may be in a higher strategic position, but, but if I make my team look good and my team makes me look good, it's a rising tide that raises all ships, and we're all going to be rewarded for this. And like you said, I like what you said before, was like, how do you make yourself completely like, you know, uh, not, you know, replaceable in a way of Well, then if you make yourself, if you do such a good job, then we want to know how we can rise you up in this company. We want to know where if you do that and I'm doing that as your team leader, then is there room for everybody versus, oh my God, if I really champion and coach my team under me and they get so good that they're actually doing as good a job as me, but the company can find out a way to pay them $15,000 less, will I then become obsolete in a fear-based way?

I think there's that consideration. As well. But look, let's look at this really, really, really positively, Jason. There are organizations out there that do the right thing, say the honorable thing, behave in the honorable way, and boy, isn't it wonderful working for them. And, you know, whatever they produce, whatever they sell, whatever their service is, whatever it is that they are doing in order to live, grow, and survive, to be profitable, it is wonderful working for them and working within that culture. It pulls out the best of the people within that organization. People grow, they thrive, they enjoy that organization. And then if your role happens to be made redundant, you're in a position where you can move onwards and upwards because you've got the confidence, the competence, and the capabilities to go away and do Yeah.

And I think that's incredible. One of the ways I saw it, I remember talking to an educator, an educator shared this with me. And they said that one of the things about having, from a student perspective, that they always want to make sure that if they welcome a student into this program, that it's the right fit for them. Not only is it the right fit for the program, but it's the right fit for them. And so in other words, yes, obviously we need the money because we're an income-based, you know, even though they're a nonprofit, but nonprofits still need to make money to exist. But the person said to me, this educator said to me, If at a certain point in the time that they're in the school— and these were college-level, uh, kids— if I— we find out through mutual conversation that isn't— this isn't the right place, I'm gonna go and help them find the place that they need to belong.

Yeah, yeah.

And that, again, blew my mind because, like, you don't hear that usually. It's like, you have to fit into our culture, and if you're not, there's something wrong with you, so go fuck off. And we're not really invested. We're only invested in you as long as it makes sense and it benefits us. And I can imagine like companies saying, listen, we want you to be here for as long as it's mutually beneficial. And when it no longer is mutually beneficial in a good way, let's help you find and set you up for success somewhere else. Because that means like, that's going to look good for us that we have this relationship with other companies and other places. And like, if you're on our team and we accepted you in the first place and we, we grew you and we invested in you and you invested in us and we both benefited from that. And now the times come where there isn't a space available for you to grow and you do have a better job opportunity How can we support you in getting that?

Yeah. Yes, that's it. And look at people that go through that company and come out the other side. They will look back and they will sell the benefits of working with that company, and the company grows and, um, and, and prospers because of it, not despite it. Yeah. And I, I think it's just a, a slight shift in mentality in order to get to that point. A lot of companies are doing that and doing it really well. A lot of companies are turning, and a lot of companies are looking at it and thinking, perhaps we ought to try that. And some are blind and deaf to it, but you'll always get that. You've got a spectrum, as you have in everything.

Well, that's that whole, right, that whole, like, you know, it's, it's the, um, the fight was the, the stages of, of decision-making, right? It's the contemplation, the pre-contemplation. Yeah, that looks good, right? And then there's the early adopters and the late adopters. All that stuff too, right? Like, especially with AI, everybody's like, you know, are we gonna jump around to this? And who are the early adopters that are already making millions of dollars off it? And who's like, nope, it's basically going to become Terminator and we're all going to die, you know? So, you know, so both sides of the coin might be true. But, um, so, so let's talk about a little bit nitty-gritty practical of how you do this through your business, right? There's the— you there's books that you've published, but more importantly is, is this, this curriculum and coaching and guidance and courses. So let's talk a little bit about this, about what you've created and how you bring your passion and talents to the world.

Sure. Well, when I was setting my business up, uh, 15-odd years ago, I was looking in the area, or working in the area, of people development and developing my business along that line. And I was doing training, I was doing coaching. I still do I still do coaching, but there's a lot of downtime when you're waiting for people to make decisions. There's a lot of time when you're spending working on reconfiguring parts of your training, parts of your coaching, parts of the interventions that you have with various organizations. So I saw an opportunity to actually actually produce these into online courses. This was about 8, 9, 10 years ago, before the world had even caught up with the idea or even thought about the idea of online courses.

So you were an early adopter, huh?

Well, I was, and I put a few emotional intelligence courses up on a few platforms just to see what happened. And, uh, very, very, very, very slowly, they started to take off. And from very humble beginnings of one student giving me $6 over a 6-month period, I've now got, well, it's creeping towards the half a million students or learners taking my courses in 195 countries. And instead of having just one course, I've I've got 30+ courses. I've lost count of the courses I've got, all based around emotional intelligence. So the courses are video-based learning. They're short little bite-sized courses. A lot of what we talked about, Jason, is encapsulated within one or two videos within a particular course, but it's supported with quizzes and practical activities that people can download download, print off, and work on away from the computer because you're not going to become emotionally intelligent just by listening to me pontificate and doing a few quizzes. You've actually got to go away and try things out.

What? That's blasphemy. How dare you say that?

Well, this is it. I mean, if people just want to watch the videos and walk away with a certificate, which I know a lot of them will do, then yeah, You know, that's what I provide for them.

That's incredible. So like, so if so, who are, you know, when you first started versus what it's evolved into, who's— I mean, obviously, everybody can benefit from this. Where's, where's the target market? Like, who have like, who have the people that are listening to this right now should be like, okay, I need to go check this out. Like, what, what's the pre, you know, the pre-qualification, so to speak, or who is it really geared for at this point.

Jason, you have asked the typical entrepreneurial question around who your target market is, who your target audience is, paint a picture of them. And marketeers are asking me this all the time. Yeah, I haven't got a clue. I really don't know. I look, it's somebody like you or me, Jason. It's somebody who is hungry for learning. It could be somebody at the beginning of their career. It could be somebody at the of their career. It could be a man, a woman, it could be— they could be in Namibia, they could be in Venezuela, they could be in the United Kingdom, they could be in the States. I've got absolutely no idea. People— the important focus is delivering something of benefit that people can gain value from. So if I'm doing it from the heart, which is what I am, then I think people will buy it and they will get value from it. So, you know, it's probably anathema to many of your entrepreneurs to have the question answered that way, but here I am sitting on half a million learners. And if I was to paint a picture, it's somebody in the business the world. That's it. They could be corporate, they could be in the public sector, they could be in a charity, they could be an entrepreneur. Uh, they are people who want to know a little bit more about emotional intelligence. Ah, here's a course on collaboration. Let me take this, let me look at the principles here, let me see what I can learn from it, and let me see how I can, can apply it. Could be a leader, could be somebody who wants to progress their career and need to get the skills so they can talk at interview with panache and credibility, or it might be somebody who's been a leader for, for many, many years and thinks, do you know, I just need a refresher.

Yeah, and I can see how all that could be carried over into relationships outside of the business world.

Yeah, well, look, well, look, let's strip it back to its simplicity. Business is all about relationships.

Yep, yep.

What is a company? What is a company? Let's talk about— Apple's been in the news this week, and it will probably be in the news when your listeners listen to this in a year's time, 18 months' time. What is Apple? Is it a logo? Is it the products? Is it a building? Is it a share price? That— no, Apple is a network network of people that work together to create the essence that is Apple. It's not, uh, I'm sorry, I can't remember the name of the CEO, but it's not the CEO, right? It used to be Steve Jobs.

Tim, Tim, uh, there.

I've read it so many times.

I know, I know, it's one of those things that's on the top of our head but we can't both verbalize.

But, uh, yeah, but, but anyhow, it's not the CEO, it's not the shareholders, It's not the people at the conference that they were at this week. It's the network of people that makes up the organization. Therefore, it's relationships.

Right.

It is. And it's also, there's an image and there's a prestige and there's a— they have created, it's so interesting, right? Especially when it comes to the text message controversy, right? What color is your text message on someone's phone became a thing that even when you see, like, I've watched some of these, like, social media dating, like, events that they have and they record the clips and they put it out there on the internet of these like in-person, like dating things that they've created, which is brilliant. And one woman's like, yeah, like she's like, oh, he texted me and it wasn't a green text. It wasn't a green bubble, it was a blue bubble. So I won't date him. Like, that's how powerful that brand has become where they will— you've now created a judgment around two camps. Are you an Android person or are you an Apple person? And those have, those have like, like, it's like a political stance for people. And that created culture around that and judgment of a different culture, which is crazy in and of itself. So like, I completely get what you're saying. And I want to, before we, before we wrap up, there's something that I know you and I wanted to talk about, and I didn't want to skip that. And, and even though it's a little bit of a hard pivot, is just the idea of positive and negative emotions and positive and negative experiences. And I do want to touch on that for a few, because before, I know we would both get off this call, be like, oh, we've got to talk about that.

No, it goes back to everything that we've been talking about with regards to emotions. Often people will label emotions positive or negative emotions. If we just look at emotions as being physiological and psychological reactions to an environment, they are things that— they are entities that we have no control over. They happen to us to create the fight-flight, the freeze, or the, uh, the Fawn, as you called it, reaction. So if we look at the— that emotions contain data that we need to interpret. Data is not positive or negative, it's the reaction to the data, it's the reaction to the emotion that is either positive or negative. So what I would prefer to do is not to label the emotions as being positive or negative, good or bad, black or white, or whatever. It's because emotions aren't binary. What I would prefer to do is to label them as being either constructive or destructive. So let me give you an example. Happiness is often considered to be a positive emotion, but, uh, um, we strive to be happy so that we can work in constructive ways. But Happiness can be destructive if it's used inappropriately. Have you ever tried communicating with somebody who's deliriously happy? You can't get through to them. They will also take risks that are not appropriate. And happiness is not an appropriate emotion to use at a solemn occasion such as a funeral. So, you know, how are we utilizing this emotion? It feels pleasant? How do I use this pleasant emotion in a constructive way? Or is this pleasant emotion causing me to behave destructively? Then let's talk about the, uh, the emotion, the negative emotion that everybody labels of anger. Anger is often perceived to be a negative emotion, but used It might feel unpleasant to feel angry with something or someone, but if we use it constructively, we're using it to right a wrong, because the data in anger— somebody or something has transgressed one of our core values. So how do we use that in a constructive way? Destructively, I won't even go there because everybody can come up with their examples of destructive anger. And Finally, let me give you another example, another negative so-called emotion, that of fear. Well, if fear is such a negative emotion, why do we get such joy from roller coaster rides or going along to see a scary movie? So that's where we use fear constructively. But fear can be a destructive emotion because it can lead to anxiety and it can lead to all the issues that you deal with as a therapist in your in your patients. So that's really what I wanted to say, and I think that fits in very nicely with all the positive and negative that you were talking about earlier on in our conversation.

Well, I'm cracking up over here. One, because everything— the thought that while you were talking and sharing all of this, which if anybody who's ever listened to any of the episodes, right, everybody's going to be nodding my head. If anybody has listened to any group of episodes, Robin has pretty much encapsulated any— the utmost goal of why I'm doing what I'm doing as a therapist and sharing and connecting with other people on this show. It's also now really fascinating and exciting to me to now know what I sound like with a British accent, with a Manchester accent.

I have got Manchester accent. I mean, I've got an English accent.

English, English, right.

The Mancunians would throw their arms up in horror if they thought I had a Mancunian accent. It's a particular tone of voice that I do not know. I got it.

Got it. So the UK, we're so British, so British. Forgive me for a British accent, but like, this is like, it's literally, I'm hearing what you're saying and I'm like, this is, if I had a really amazing accent, this is exactly what I would sound like. So it's, I want to like, that's like, I'm grinning ear to ear. I'm so excited. I'm so happy because like, it's so nice to hear to hear that, one, what I've been learning and doing, I'm not alone in this. Two, to know that you're equally as excited and passionate about this as I am. And three, knowing that it's working. It's working not just on a small scale with maybe where I'm playing with my practice as a therapy practice and working one-on-one versus in larger groups. One, it also gives me hope of like, "Oh, wow, this could be the next stages of my career as I evolve." grow, you know, in my timeframe. But it really is like if any, if any of my clients were listening to what you just said, they'll be like, yep, I should be really listening to what Jason's saying because there's some other expert out there. This guy's an expert. He and I should listen to what Jason's saying. Because Robin said it.

Oh, okay.

It just sounds a lot better when Robin's saying it than when Jason's saying it. So it's just bad. It's just so wonderful. But if anybody who has listened to any set of shows, right, you talked about everything where we talked about the triune Brain Theory, which I, which I hammer in as much as I can. And the neurology of things, we talk about that lensing of, it's not what happened. I literally picked up this coffee cup and talked about the possibilities of this cup to my client and saying, just because— cheers— just because it's empty now doesn't mean it's gonna be full. It's not going to be full later. But it also doesn't mean I'm not done with it for the day.

Yeah.

And I could be done with it today. And it could also just sit here until tomorrow, because I forgot about it. And I'm like, oh, Oh yeah, I didn't wash it, and I need to go wash it so I can reuse it for my coffee cup tomorrow. Of all it— right, it hasn't yet— I haven't yet come to the opportunity of what I need to do with it. And it could be I can come here and see, realize that I forgot and be like, oh my God, I can't believe I forgot it. Or I could be like, oh yeah, of course I forgot it because I had so many other things I need to do today, and it became inconsequential. But the cup is just a cup. Or I can go and wash it in an hour, make a second cup of really good pour-over coffee. So, right, that positive and negative is really that— what is the meaning that we want to give to it that can either, like you said, uplift us and, right, as I call it, more connective and more joyous? Or it's just so lovely to hear someone else sharing these things, and it reassures me that I'm on the right path as a professional talking to you as someone who's been doing this, you know, in a different platform and more than many more years than I have. So I want to Thank you for that. So, so as we wrap up, where, where can people track you down? Where can they learn more about the courses? Where can they— I mean, the books are, you know, easily, you know, found to be probably Amazon and on your website, but where are they finding you? Where are they going to, to get more from you?

Well, if you put Robin Hills into Google, hopefully I'll come up on the first page at some point, right?

Not Benny Hill. Not Benny Hill.

Benny Hill.

That's a whole different—

Hills with an S on the end. Yes, pop that into Google. Find me on LinkedIn or look for my website, which is ei4change, ei4change.com, um, or go and look for the courses, courses.ei4change.info.

Beautiful, beautiful. Robin, I, I like— already I want to invite you back to a second conversation. And, and, um, first of all, thank you. Like, I, I mean, I have fun with— I have fun doing this, but, but I, I really do. Like, please take this as the greatest compliment. It's so nice to hear, like, I'm not joking when I'm like, wow, this is what I sound like in a different accent. Like, I really— like, I mean that as the sweetest, most loving compliment to you. Um, and, and I really do appreciate the time and everything that up to now that I, I haven't even— right, we haven't even scratched the surface of what you and I can talk about. And I really very much look forward to continuing the conversation in the, in the future.

I look forward to the rematch.

Beautiful. Cheers.

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