Ep. 163- "Financial Freedom Is a Choice" with Dr. Elaine Stageberg

This is the You Winning Life podcast, your number one source for mastering a positive existence. Each episode, we'll be interviewing exceptional people, giving you empowering insights and guiding you to extraordinary outcomes. Learn from specialists in the worlds of integrative and natural wellness, spirituality, psychology, and entrepreneurship so you too can be winning life. Now here's your host, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified neuro-emotional technique practitioner, trainer and certified entrepreneur coach Jason Wasser. Today's guest is Dr. Elaine Stagberg, who along with her husband Nick has become real estate investors from the unlikely starting place of being a medical doctor psychiatrist. Both of them got picked by the entrepreneurial bug and went down the rabbit hole of real estate investment, both for themselves and helping empower the community of investors around them. We're going to get into topics such as the developmental stages, just like the psychology stages of development when it comes to our personal growth, of how that maps out with being an entrepreneur and being an investor, as well as some of the challenges and struggles and wins along the way that Elaine and her husband has gone through, the challenges and how to empower yourself when things get tough during this entrepreneurial journey, and all of the different ways in which we can think differently from the way that we've been trained to do. So very much looking forward for everybody benefiting from this episode. And like any other episode, if you have any questions, feel free to track either of us down, my guest or myself, and hope you enjoy today's conversation with Dr. Elaine Stackberg. All right, so as you heard in the intro, we're going to get into some really cool topics today. So, uh, you know, Dr. Elaine, or Elaine, I'm not sure where in this side of the world, which you prefer going by. Yeah, so good. So I know that, um, you know, obviously want to honor the, the amount of time, effort, energy you put into your clinical side. Um, and as everybody's gonna hear today, this is not a one-size-fits-all journey where you go to school for multiple years, you specialize in something, and then you stay in your lane. One of the beautiful things about why I'm excited to talk to you today is you can show how you can become an expert in your lane and also become an expert in another lane that starts off as a side hustle and then turns into a beautiful project. So first, let's start off with that journey, like knowing, you know, when did you know, how did you know that you wanted to go into the mental health field and specifically psychiatry, and maybe even share some of the little like pros and cons. My practice as a therapist is much more integrative mind-body medicine. So my job is to make sure that, you know, if they do need it, they do need it. But my job is to how do we solve it before they have to use that as a tool. So I'd love to hear that story for you. From you about how you got there. And yeah.

Yeah, excellent question. Not one I get to go through very often. So excited to share that history. So kind of going back to starting in undergrad, I majored in biology, really just truly liked the life sciences, found it to be very interesting. I didn't have a plan at that point to go to medical school. I went to a small private school and everyone in my graduating class who majored in biology went to medical school except for me. But I just studied biology just because I truly liked it. I found it to be very interesting, very intrinsically motivating to study it. And then I bounced— I had my first bounce over to the business world. So after undergrad, I got a Master's of Health Administration and Policy, which is essentially like an MBA, but specifically healthcare and hospital focused. And I really thought I would function as a hospital administrator. I'm not honestly, like, looking back, I'm not quite sure what led from that bounce from, you know, hard sciences to the business world. But I think I just wanted to kind of mix it up, right? I had spent so many years in science, I wanted to spend some years in business. And then I had the great fortune of working for someone who, you know, still to this day I consider to be a great mentor, um, Dr. Laura McGuinn. She was a developmental and behavioral pediatrician, and I worked for her for several years under a grant-funded project in the state of Oklahoma where I would travel around and I would meet with family medicine physicians and pediatricians and help them to implement developmental screening for the kiddos that they were taking care of and then connect them with resources, usually in like the school system, early intervention systems, and then get those medical records back to the physician so that there was a holistic team taking care of these kids. And that's when I kind of got bit by that science and healthcare bug again. And I thought, I don't necessarily want to just be, you know, helping these physicians with their administrative projects. I want to be the physician. So then I applied to medical school, um, really with a lot of guidance from Dr. McGuinn. Went to medical school, um, really enjoyed that process. Again, just loved studying the human body, the human condition, thinking about how, you know, the, the most precious thing that any of us have is our human bodies. And it's, it's a bit of an oversimplification, but I think it's true that physicians are essentially very, very, very skilled mechanics at helping us take care of the most valuable tool that we have, which is our human body. And as I decided what specialty to, to choose, you know, the wonderful thing about medicine is there's so many interesting specialties, right? You can go the whole surgical route, you can go the whole internal medicine route. In my mind, I really set psychiatry aside from either the surgical specialties or the internal medicine specialties, because to me it was something that could permeate my entire life. So I really was asking myself, if I am going to continue to study something all through residency, you know, let's say 80 hours a week for the next 3 to 6 years depending on the length of residency, fellowship, what is something that will give me a skill that moves me closer to being the person that I want to be? So like, as an example, you can be an amazing surgeon, but unless you have operating theater, you're probably not operating on people, right? And you can be an amazing, say, nephrologist. But unless you have a dialysis machine and a pharmacy, you're probably not working on people's kidneys at cocktail parties or those sorts of things. But a psychiatrist, although you're definitely not analyzing people, and you're definitely not treating people, you— I felt that I would learn a way of thinking about humans and the way we use our brains and the way we use our mindsets and our hearts that obviously would serve me well in a clinical setting, but would become a part of me that I would just carry with me 24 hours a day. So I was trying to like optimize my training to, to turn me into the person I wanted to be, not only the clinician that I wanted to be. And then that was also where I had kind of my first little, you know, seeds of entrepreneurship planted. But I was also thinking about if I wanted to practice medicine independently outside of a healthcare system or a hospital system, what would be the best specialty for that. So obviously, if you're a surgeon, you need an operating theater and all of the equipment and everything that goes with that. But if you're a psychiatrist, you really just need an office and a desk and, you know, maybe at most a panic button or something, but you really can go out and start your own practice. So those were all of the inputs that I, you know, into how I became a psychiatrist going all the way back, you know, from undergrad.

Incredible. I do agree with you, right, that, you know, you can see these other professions where you need all these accoutrements. To achieve what you need to do. So it's a lot of external resources. And the mind-body world, you just need the person in front of you. And I think that's such a wonderful tool. And I love that the more I travel down this integrative wellness path of neurology, and especially now the world's moving not only from psychology and neurology but into psychedelics and plant medicine and kind of going back to what was shut down in the '70s, and we're finding so much more about the mind, how much that applies to the mindset and the psychology of being entrepreneurial. And I love talking about this with people that there's so many people that are organically entrepreneurial, but aren't entrepreneurs. In other words, they may find their ways to bring stuff into their life that aligns with their values, that aligns with the purpose, that aligns with the mission. Like you said, it brought all of you to the table no matter what, where you go. In other words, the surgeon is just a surgeon when he's in the operating room. He just acts like a surgeon when he's around everybody else. So that's, you know, the ego doesn't leave. But, but we can— you and I can show up wherever we are. And we're constantly looking at the world through that lens, which is really powerful. How do you see the similarities? And one of the things that I think I would love to add to that is not only how do you see the similarities, but also the developmental stages of one as you went through this awareness of entrepreneurship, And two, how you see people that you're— talk a little bit more about what you're doing in your world that you've transitioned into, the developmental stages of those entrepreneurs and how that overlaps with the world of psychology and the way the brain works.

Yeah. So I really think of a business as it takes on its own life, right? That's not obvious at first, right? The business and the person are so linked together the way a baby and its parents are so linked together, right? The baby does not developmentally know that it is separate from its caregiver, particularly its mother, but it obviously is to the outside world. Business is the same way. And that, that, that persona inside of us that is the entrepreneur kind of has to go through that developmental process. And for some people that happens, you know, all the way back in, their regular childhood, they're planting their seeds of entrepreneurship. Maybe they're, you know, selling candy on the basketball court or something like that. But for many others, it comes in adulthood after they've gone through, you know, say, a traditional education, traditional training, much like we have. And then somewhere along the way, they get bit by the entrepreneurial bug, maybe because they see a mentor or they think about what's possible, or they have a pain point in their life that they want to solve. And then they think, wow, I would love to solve this. For other people, or as I have seen, you know, time and time again with physicians, it comes from pain, from, you know, a loss of autonomy at work, you know, feeling frustrated with a lot of the bureaucracies in modern, modern medicine today. And so seeking financial freedom and then doing so, you know, via a side gig, but then recognizing that although someone, you know, is a fully fledged adult, they have to start their entrepreneurial journey as a baby. And that's okay. It's totally okay. And at first that business takes a ton of energy and it doesn't give much back. The same way a human baby takes a ton of energy, wakes you up in the middle of the night, worries you, you're not sure what to do and you're not getting a lot of love back, right? In the first, you know, 6 to 8, you're not even getting a smile, right?

A lot of dirty diapers.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then, and then that, that business becomes a toddler and it can do a little bit on its own, but it's actually even more dangerous, right? It can run itself off a cliff. It can gobble up resources. But then, you know, much like, you know, human lives— and I have the great— I call it a sacred obligation or a sacred burden that I'm raising my business and my human family at the same time. I have 4 children, 7 and under. Much like when you get to, say, you know, 4 and a half, 5 years old, you see that child really take on a life of its own, have its own ideas, be able to do some things by itself. That same thing happens in business. Then that business becomes a teenager. That's where there's like the real magic, where the business truly has an identity outside of the entrepreneur, can do a lot of things independently, can interact with the entrepreneur. Like the business is now outside of the entrepreneur and they're able to interact together. Whereas, you know, back in the beginning when the business was a baby, the business and the entrepreneur were the same thing. Like no one could tell them apart, right? And then a business reaches adulthood. And that's, you know, when we think about like the, you know, the big businesses, Amazon, Whole Foods, you know, places like that that are completely outside of the entrepreneur that created them. They are their own living, breathing, functioning thing the same way our children grow up to be, you know, living, breathing, functional adults completely outside of us. And so I think it has been profoundly helpful for me to think of my business and how my businesses, because I have several different businesses, that are all kind of linked together, but to think of them through a developmental trajectory, because it helps me to think about, well, what is the developmental stage of my business? What does my business need as a result of its developmental stage? What are the problems that I should expect as a result of the developmental stage, right? Like we expect that 3-year-olds wet their pants. We don't expect that 13-year-olds do. We should expect that a toddler business is gonna need a lot of money and investment from the entrepreneur. We should not expect that a teenager business still needs a lot of money and investment from the entrepreneur. Hopefully by then it's generating its own cash flow and it's, you know, it's becoming self-sustainable. So when we think about what are the problems that we expect at any individual developmental stage, it helps us to serve our businesses and to move them through that developmental trajectory in a very like nonjudgmental way. And it also helps us to, you know, think about our businesses in relation to other businesses that, oh, well, so-and-so has a business and that person's not having this problem, or that person is having this problem. Okay, well, our businesses are in different developmental stages, just like our children are in different developmental stages. Maybe I'm taking my kids to the park and that person's taking their kids to, you know, a sleepover. Like, they're just, they're just different. But when we see our businesses as these beings that are outside of us that go through their own developmental trajectory, I find that that is very helpful in the relationship between the entrepreneur and the business.

Yeah, makes so much sense. And I see this often where there are developmental stages where, let's say, you do meet a high success factor of a business that someone might have started. And they also forget that sometimes there might be an aspect of the business that they do have to go back to the basics with. They do have to take it back to its infancy and work up a structure and a system and a pathway and, you know, rhythms and rituals. To get it to align with where everything else is now. And it's kind of— it does have this ebbing and flowing, or, you know, it wouldn't even be like a roller coaster, but I kind of, you know, see it as a spiral cyclical process that if you're not always looking at those basic fundamentals— like right now I just redid my website, and now my question is to ask, like, well, how many of the backlinks were connected to previous website? Are they still going through the front website, right? Stuff I wasn't having to think about for the last 5, 6, 7 years since my website was made. Right? So I'm going back to some of the basics as if I'm starting all over, but I have to make sure I go to the right people who know that because that's completely out of my area of expertise.

Yeah.

And, and I'm finding that, and I'm finding that with established businesses that there are some basics that they don't know that they're just trusting people outside of them to do. And some people are giving the right answer and some people are not giving the right answer. And I think that's a fear factor when it comes to this because, uh, let's talk a little bit just about the business, the way that you structured, uh, this new you know, it's not so new, but this, you know, leaving the clinical world and the perspective of trust, the perspective of teaching and guiding those that you're working with to move past that analysis paralysis to say, okay, these are the trustworthy people. These people know not only what's going on, but there's education, there's process, there's a little bit of facilitation. It's not just do this and you'll be fine, but there's no logical enough for the person to execute on making that decision?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, excellent question. I think, you know, certainly the experience that I have in relation to that question is that that never stops. Um, I was just on the phone with both a business partner and a mentor of mine, um, who's much further ahead of me in the business journey. He's about 15 years older than me, um, has had a private equity sale of a technology company well in the 9 figures, um, runs nearly a billion-dollar private equity technology firm today, um, so much, much bigger than, than my company. And he and I had this exact conversation like no more than 5 or 6 days ago of how do, how do we continue to build and how do we continue to bring together really experienced, capable people who, exactly like you said, we can trust, who know what they're doing. At the, at the end of the day, it is ultimately, you know, the, the entrepreneur's responsibility And that fear kind of never goes away. You just learn to handle it and you learn to kind of know that, you know, I think maybe, maybe in the beginning, depending on, you know, someone's innate personality, they might think like, oh, if I don't have that certain paperwork filed or something, like the sky is falling. And as you get further along, you realize that, you know, there's good faith effort to get things done. No one knows 100% of what they're doing. That just doesn't happen. The thing that that this person said to me on the phone is, I long for the day when I'm not the first one through the door learning all of these things, but I know it will never happen. And you can kind of hear his like frustration, but also his amusement there. And that's where the value comes from, right? That's what the entrepreneur is creating, that value by being the first one to figure things out in their business, surrounded by a team that helps them. You just get uncomfortable with being uncomfortable and you seek input and You know, one of the things that, like, kind of a new maturation process in, in where my company is, is like our attorneys have attorneys, right? So like, not only do I have an attorney, but my attorney has attorneys to, you know, to go down those like deep rabbit holes of compliance and things that we need to do. And you just build that as it comes, right? It would not have made sense for me 6 or 7 years ago in our business to even have general counsel. Let alone having my attorneys have attorneys. And you just, you just build it as you go and you feel some pain points. And when you feel that pain, you say, hmm, this pain is telling me something. What is it? Oh, it's that my general counsel isn't as familiar with securities law. So I, but I am really far away from understanding securities law. So I'll hire a securities attorney and that person will report to my general counsel and then those people together will report to me. And together we'll figure this out. And the big obvious things that you need to stay in compliance with are really obvious. And like the minutia, we'll just figure it out as we go. And that's totally okay because that's what every other entrepreneur is doing.

So let's talk real estate because that's the, that was a transition from, from psychiatry to real estate. And where was your husband who you're partners with in this? Was he already in that world previously or is this something that you guys stumbled upon together? How did that come about? And what was that? What was that developmental journey? Right. Was it just starting off with like and we're going to start with one property, we got to— and then when did it shift from like, okay, we're doing this until to like, wow, we're doing this?

Yeah, yeah, it has been a fun journey. Happy, happy to share that. So before I went to medical school, when my husband and I first met and we were thinking about getting married, we saw a pattern of the people in our lives who were, say, 20, 30 years ahead of us, people that we really respected. We figured out that almost all of them were investing in real estate. So it might look on the surface like they were a physician or a business owner or an attorney or an accountant, you know, kind of any of those, you know, what people might perceive to be highly paid professions. But when we asked them, you know, how have you built your family? How have you built your life? How have you built your wealth? Real estate kept coming up over and over and over. So we decided even before I went to medical school that we would steward the wealth that I would generate from my profession through real estate. And then my husband was a career technologist, and we anticipated that he would have a sale from one of his startups. And so we wanted to be prepared to handle that wealth as well. Turns out I finished medicine at the end of residency and never earned a, a regular physician salary. And my husband never had a sale, but we learned how to steward what wealth we did have just through our regular salaries of my husband working, you know, his regular tech startup and having a, you know, very low, like $100,000, $110,000, you know, low six-figure salary. And I was a resident making like $55,000, $60,000 per year. And we were, we were shoveling as much of our wealth into real estate. So it actually started right when we got married. I owned my own home. He owned his own home. We decided to move into his home and rent out my previous home. I'm always hopelessly transparent with people that despite what I just said, that I saw that everyone that I admired was doing real estate, I did not want to do it at that time. I really perceived, hey, we just got married. I'm quitting my job to go to medical school. I'm hoping that a baby comes along. This is the worst time to start this journey. But it was 2011 and the economy was struggling then, and it got to a place where we would have needed to bring like our entire life savings to, to sell the home because we were that underwater. And so my husband was like, well, do you want to try to rent it? And I'm like, I can't say I want to, but it seems like that's the least bad path available to us.. And within just a year or so, I actually really liked it. I saw that it was generating cash flow. So it was replacing a little bit of the salary that I had lost by going to medical school. The mortgage was getting paid down. It was growing in value, kind of digging out of that hole. And then there were tax advantages. And so that's when we decided to intentionally invest in real estate, to intentionally buy properties, fix them up, do a cash-out refi, hold those properties, and then just recycle that capital over and over. So all the way from the beginning, our business plan was always to buy properties that were in significant distress so that we could get a discount, improve them, do a cash-out refi, hold that property, and then take that bucket of money and buy the next property. And then just one thing led to another. You know, there were many years that we were just doing it with our own capital. Then we started working with partners. Then we started doing joint ventures along the way. My husband became a real estate agent and that allowed us to speed up the process and speed up our deal flow. It generated another source of income that he was earning commissions on our transactions. We created our own property management company so that we could manage our own assets that then allowed us to manage other people's assets. Then we were doing joint ventures and then we created a private equity fund so that we could help many other investors. So we had developed this deep skill set as real estate investors over the last decade. And many people were coming to us saying, wow, I see the freedom that you two have created through your real estate investments. Can you help me with that too? And so with our private equity funds, we're able to work with passive investors where they invest in our funds and then we do all the active part. We acquire the real estate, do the renovations, do the management, and then share out the profits. And so if you had asked me, you know, 10 years ago today, would I be a trained psychiatrist who's not currently practicing medicine, who's running a third of a billion dollars in assets under management in a real estate private equity firm? No way. But, you know, going back to what we talked about a few minutes ago, as entrepreneurs, you know, we can sometimes feel pain in our own lives and then find the solution and then say, well, how can I share this solution with as many other people as possible? And that's basically the story of of our journey. It just organically grew to the next thing, to the next thing, to the next thing. And, you know, certainly our business now, you know, speaking of the developmental stages, like it has a life of its own. It exists outside of myself. It exists outside of my husband. It is its own thing that has its own ideas and its own plans and is going somewhere. And so it's just such a joy to run this business and to raise this business alongside my human children. And it's fun, you know, to run a business with your spouse where We're together all day doing this stuff, and then we're home, you know, together all night, you know, taking care of our family, which is the thing that's most important to us, and then sharing out financial freedom with as many people as we can.

I see it. I see it as, as a different type of private practice. And, and I know that, you know, from right when you were in medical school, I'm sure there was zero business classes. When I was in graduate school, there was zero business classes. There wasn't even any like clubs, right? Um, and I know that's like, you know, certain programs and certain schools have clubs and stuff like that. Now might have some like, you know, coaching stuff or whatever, which is interesting to see how coaching has entered our world of clinical, right, licensed medical professionals. A whole podcast, a whole other podcast and a whole other conversation. And it's funny because I have some really good friends that are great coaches and I truly respect. And then there's everybody who, you know, wipes their butt with a different hand and all of a sudden they're a coach. So those who have heard my podcast on that stuff probably know my thoughts on those things. But You know, looking at this, I remember when someone introduced the E-Myth to me, right? You're the entrepreneur, you're either— you're the technician, and you at the level of what you're getting paid, you are employed, right? If you were working for a hospital system, or you're working for a private— for someone else's practice, you're a salaried person. So regardless of what you're doing, whether you're working contractually a certain amount of hours or not, you still are getting a lump, you know, at the end of the year, you're only making a certain amount. And you can't make more than that. Unless you renegotiate your contract, and it's not going to be exponentially more. It's not like you're going to get 20, 30, 40% more. You're going to get 3%, 5%. And then I remember doing that negotiation when I was in my first group practice, and I did the numbers on it, and they were gonna like, well, you know, we can give you an extra— and I like did the math over what I— if I did the same thing I did that year the next year and added that back on, that was like $2,000 to $3,000 more of income versus going out and having this, you know, like that, that medical world of like 70/30, 60/40, you know. Fees, fee sharing for overhead and stuff like that. I'm like, well, if I have 40%, first of all, there is the tax benefits of it being right. If I— even if I owe 40% of my income to the government, which will not happen, I'm kind of living in California, um, I'll probably still end up with more tax advantage and more income at the end of the day. And I set myself up earlier on before leaving that practice to learn how to do certain things in that system before I made the jump. I'm finding that this is a common thing that we are trained as a society to do the thing that which we do. And again, like we stay in that lane. And a lot of people will look at something like what you did as, well, why aren't you getting enough pleasure and joy out of being a psychiatrist? Why aren't you okay with what you're making? Why aren't you— I mean, especially as a mother and as a wife, why, you know, what do you mean you have to, you know, give, you know, either A, give up or sacrifice what you want to do, or yeah, of course you should give up and sacrifice what you want to do for the sake of maybe a bigger picture for your family and give up your professional identity, versus how does your professional identity evolve So my point with that is the people that I'm seeing, like you're seeing, and that we probably have a bunch of people overlapping that we've met, is the people that trained for what they originally went into eventually graduated or evolved past that to no longer do that which they're trained to do in order to become into this developmental stage of financial freedom or reach an even bigger potential of who they are and what they're capable of bringing back to the world than they thought they were original. Originally able to.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think about— I'm so grateful that I started medical school about 5 years later than a traditional student. So not that long in the grand scheme of things, although it was hilarious that 5 years was enough that my classmates all read our textbooks on their iPad, and I was still like, well, how do I actually buy the textbook? And they're like, but Elaine, it's heavy and it costs like $300. I'm like, I know, but I need to read a book and I can take notes in it too. Yeah, right. And highlight and all that stuff. Anyway, that's just a little aside that I did feel a little bit old. It's just that 5-year gap. But I think that gap and kind of going from biology to medicine to medical school to psychiatry and then back into business. Don't get me wrong, the healing professions are sacred. There is something about taking care of fellow human beings, taking care of our bodies and our minds together. Because it's, you know, our bodies and our time is the only thing that we can't ever get back if we lose them, right? We can get back our car, we can get back our house if we spill our lunch, right? Like, we can figure those things out.

Right. All those country songs that that's what happens at the end of the day.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it is a sacred profession. I'm grateful that I had those extra years in between because the whole time I was training as a physician, I was training as a physician. That's it. I was training as a physician the same way one might train as a chef or a mechanic or a nurse or anything else. I was training as a physician. And I think, you know, I never had in my life experience that feeling of, oh, I've wanted to be a doctor since I was 3 years old or 5 years old. And I think, I think for the people that, that have, I wonder if what I have seen is that that becomes a burden because it becomes, well, if I'm not doing this thing, I've wanted to be a doctor since I was 3 years old and I saw Grandma fall down the stairs, you know, or something like that. Then all of a sudden, if I'm not doing that thing, well, then what am I? And that feels very scary and very empty. Versus I'm a human being. I am the most advanced thing that has, that as far as we know, has ever existed. I can be a doctor and a wife and a mother and a real estate investor and, and, and, and, and it can be our hobbies, it can be our entrepreneurial journeys, it can be the relationships that we have in life.. And so I found that, that, that relationship with, with my profession, uh, was healthier for me. And when I see, you know, other people in, you know, their late 30s, early 40s, 50s that are kind of questioning that self of, hey, I trained as an accountant, but I don't necessarily want to do accounting all day, every day for the rest of my life for the next 20 years. I really am interested in this art that I'm doing, and maybe I could find a way to, to make that a side gig or I'm really interested in this other thing. I'd like to do that. And I think, I think one of the beautiful things that's happening with our generation is that we're seeing that. We're seeing that we can have many identities. We can blend them all together. We can move through them fluidly from decade to decade or few years to few years. There's no, there's no like, I have to be an accountant from the time I'm 20 until the time I'm 70 and that's it. I can't do anything else. And if I'm an accountant, that means I can't be a good parent because I have to be really focused, you know, and working 24/7. I think we're seeing that our identities can be very multifaceted and that that's a much healthier and much more fun way to live.

Agreed. And it's when I started going down the rabbit hole of the mind-body stuff and the clinical research of neurology and integrative medicine, and like, there was no one else that I knew of from my graduate school or the marriage and family therapy community, even though it's much more of a progressive systemic, you know, not one-size-fits-all, it's not pathology-based, it's not diagnosis-based, much more relational dynamics-based. But there was no one doing the stuff that I was doing. Like, the furthest out there, so to speak, was hypnosis, and that was generally accepted in our community, right? But that was like the out-there thing. And then EMDR came up, and, and I'm still way even more out there with the neuro-emotional technique modality, which originally came out of chiropractic for finding solving stress patterns that show up as emotional symptomology and why we have chronic pain in certain areas and figuring out how to resolve that. And now there's a good chunk of therapists in that community as well. But it was— it really did— when I started seeing things that I was really passionate about in other fields and wondering, why the hell can't I do this as a licensed therapist? And waiting and waiting and waiting. And as opposed to like— and that was originally a younger personality default of mine is waiting for permission because I wanted the approval before I would, you know, push a button versus now I'm going to do it and reverse engineer it as long as it's ethical and moral and legal within, you know, all due diligence of talking to my attorneys and my liability insurance. Is that right? One of the examples I talk about with my fellow practitioners is there's nowhere in black and white that I've ever seen, especially in Florida statutes, that says a therapist cannot touch their client.

Mm-hmm.

So when it comes to any of the mind-body modalities, they're like, oh, I can't do that because we can't touch our clients. But I've never seen that in black and white. It says don't have any intimate or inappropriate relationships with your clients in black and white. But even in the standards of code of ethics of the APA and the LMFT and all those different things, doesn't say you can't touch your client. So when I'm doing muscle testing with Chinese medicine meridian points as an expert certified practitioner of neuro-emotional technique, and you hear new therapists like, how are you able to do that. You're touching our client. Like, the limitations that we create on each industry, right? You talk about an accountant, and I'm like, I'm working with, you know, one of my clients is an accountant, and, and he— the same thing, he's been doing this forever, and wonderful human being. And I'm like, well, what would be the pivot if you left this? Well, you know, I was thinking about this. And I said, Mike, well, why not start now? Don't wait until you quit and you have to refresh the, you know, start and put it under pressure. And I think we create these limitations for ourselves of because I have a colleague of mine who left the therapy field, who was an incredible therapist and is full-time doing real estate flipping and selling and everything. And, and, and, and at the beginning, they could judge and say, oh, well, were they not making it as a therapist? Were they not being a good business? They're— no, they're being an amazing business person because they're making more now than they were as a therapist. They were a fantastic therapist. So I, I wonder, as people are hearing this, what would be some suggestions that maybe came out of your own journey of quashing the own, you know, the negative doubts in your own mind, and perhaps some of the things that you heard, probably even from colleagues or from the systems that you were working in, like, what do you mean you're giving up your— you're a psychiatrist, that's like the top level of our world, and now you're going and doing real estate of all things. So I'm curious to hear what, what some of those things were and how you push past that.

Yeah, I love, I love that you mentioned, you know, like, where does it say you can't do Right. And I think, I think particularly in those of us that are in, you know, professions where we've had to train for a long time, the licensing takes a long time. There's continuing education, all of those things. There's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of boundaries that many of them are there for a reason. Many of them make a lot more sense in, say, 1950, before all of this knowledge was readily available and we were able to learn and have more experiences more quickly because society is so much more closely linked together. But from, you know, exactly like you say there, of like, nowhere does it say I can't lay hands on my— I call them patients, you call them clients— but nowhere does it say I can't lay hands on my patients. That's just a cultural thing that we as a profession have decided. But if I can add more value to this interaction and move this person further along their healing journey, why would I not do that? And I think that's one of the beautiful things that the world of entrepreneurship gives us is that it opens our brains to the person that creates the most value wins. And we get away from, I have to, you know, jump these hoops or check these boxes or do these things. There's so much of that in these highly regulated industries, right? Like every profession has them that you have to do, get into a certain school, do a certain number of tests, take a certain number of licensing things, check a certain number of boxes, and then boom, you're magically in that profession. The entrepreneur world is the exact opposite. There is no checklist. There is no, you know, one book that, that, that's, that shows the way. It's get out there, create some value, get it into the hands of some people. If they think it's valuable, they'll pay for it and then it will build. And, you know, I found with my mind, I am much more motivated to wake up in the morning and think about the activities I want to do in that world of, well, how can I create value today? What interesting thing can I do? What thing can I bring? I think a big part of the reason my husband and I have had so much success in real estate is that we've brought the excellence of medicine and the excellence of technology to real estate, which is a much, much younger industry. If medicine and technology are 100 years old, real estate is at best 10 or 15. And so that's why we've had so much success in real estate is because we're able to take things from other modalities, from other experiences that we have in life and apply them to something new. And there's just this level of creativity and enjoyment that comes from that. A quote that I, that I love to share is, um, it's from Tony Robbins, who I just adore. Um, that which supports life, life supports. That which supports life, life supports. So anything that we're doing as humans that supports ourselves and our fellow humans, the universe will give us the resources that we need to continue that thing and to grow that thing. And, you know, when I think about our own real estate investing journey, you know, we had created financial freedom for our own family through real estate investing, which is great, right? I'm so blessed to have that. So many people seek that. And then people started coming to us saying, you know, hey, can you show me how to do that? Or can we do a deal together? Or can I just give you my money? And it seems like you know what you're doing and I can invest with you. And for many years we turned people away. You know, we said we're so busy with work and our own family and our own investments and our own children. We, you know, we don't want to, to grow in this direction. And then I heard that quote from Tony, and I thought, well, my gosh, I am, I am turning people away that I could help. Again, in a very different way. It's not in the exam room. It's not in the hospital. It, you know, it was helping my fellow physicians and my, my fellow colleagues. They would come to me and say, you have so much freedom, you have this life that I, I endeavor to have, can you help me down that path? And when I started supporting them in their goals and opening my mind up to what was possible, and, you know, going back to earlier in our conversation, like, not being afraid to say, well, I don't exactly know how to do that, but I'll figure it out. I'll call the attorney, I'll call the accountant, I'll, I'll do the thing, I'll call the mentor, I'll figure out how to put together a joint venture, I'll figure out how to put together a private equity fund, I'll figure out how to stay in compliance with the SEC, I'll figure out how to run a property management company. When I supported other life, then life supported me, and it grew our business to this, you know, thing— a third of a billion dollars in assets under management. Like, like, even when I say that, right? Yeah, my mind is like, is that really my life?

Is that a real number, right? Do you be like— people like— I mean, that's the— that's the— I really— it's, it's so powerful for— to hear this, and I love hearing and meeting people who are doing that because for a lot of— when you were talking earlier on, you said like, you know, he was making a good 6 figures, making $100,000 a year. And I know there's still so many people out there that are $60,000 away from that. And we'll never— right? And, and it's like, oh my, well, he was making $100,000 a year in his self-salary paid business, and so of course they were able to do all these things. But those are all just belief systems that are blocking us from, from all that. Because like you did, like you said, we assumed and we planned as if and made our lifestyle reverse engineered as if, even before any of this extra money came in, to make a lifestyle that would allow us to do this. And I think people aren't ready to make those sacrifices. They're not ready to make that commitment of, no, you can't do Uber Eats whenever you want, you can't do— and obviously the joke is, right, you know, well, you can't save $5 a week on Starbucks and become a millionaire by going one less time to Starbucks. It has to become a consistent part of, of who you are. And really what you need and where you want to go within a certain time frame. But exactly what you're saying, and I see this year in— oh my God, I'm just remembering reminiscing. I was on, um, a local Family Therapy Association, and one of the workshops that they had was like, you know, the six-figure practice. That was a— right, the six-figure practice, that means it's a $100,000 a year practice and you're considered successful. But they don't talk about licensing, they don't talk about CEUs, they don't talk about tax burdens, they don't talk about you know, all of the other things that if your business is making six figures, you're not taking home six figures.

Yeah, yeah.

You need to have a $200,000, $300,000, $400,000 practice without all the expenses and all the write-offs and all the things to lessen your tax liability to really be taking home $100,000 a year with the least amount of hit to your taxes. They didn't talk about that. They were talking about if you hit six figures in private practice, you're a successful therapist. It's nauseating. Yeah, it's blasphemy.

Yeah. Yeah.

Meanwhile, the people are in agency jobs, or if they're working for a hospital, doing lovely work and love what they're doing. You know, it's like, then you have that whole thing of like, well, you're not doing enough because you're not in private practice, or you're not. So there is so much out there in the stigma of those who, those who are listening that are employed, salaried people, and that there's like another way in your field to do it, and you're being made to feel bad about it, but you're also like, but I don't feel passionate about that. What you're presenting is how you can potentially stay in what you're doing and bring some extra value outside of that without having to give up the opportunities in which you are in and which you love also right now.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I want to speak about a mindset belief that has just been— if I had to pick, you know, say the top 3, this is definitely there. Um, it's the idea that, you know, as humans, we are story-based beings. It's how knowledge has been shared amongst humans for or tens of thousands of years, well before language, well before, certainly well before anything written, we told stories. It was, we were much, much more able to remember, you know, don't eat that red berry when there was a story that went with it versus like, well, there's like 30 red berries, which one do I eat and which one do I not eat? Oh, the story of what was that red berry under that tree on this day when the sun looked this certain way, when the weather felt like this Oh, that's the one I need to avoid. So because we tell ourselves stories all day, every day, every, every, like you and I are telling stories about what it means to do this recording right now. The people that are listening are telling themselves stories about what it means to listen to us. We're all telling stories. We might as well train ourselves to tell empowering stories and to, to ask ourselves, you know, with, with anything that happens, we don't, there, there's no such thing as life. There's only the life that we focus on. One, right? I'm in this room right now and I can look at you. I'm looking at my screen and that's one life. But maybe over there, there's like a monster coming through the wall. But until I look over there, there is no monster in my story, right? Or a leak in the wall or something, right? Um, so in the early days when I was in medical school, my husband was working, so we only had one income. We were starting our family. We had just gotten married. We were doing real estate investing. And we did not have that much money, so we were buying some really rough houses. One of, one of the houses we bought had been vacant for 9 years and boarded up. It was a VA foreclosure. Um, I mean, so literally just like taking down the boards on the windows, we were like, I wonder what we're gonna see, but this is all we can afford, so we're gonna figure this out. Um, and you know, there were days when I remember one day coming home, I was in residency at this coming home from the hospital at probably 7 or 8 in the morning. And we had 2 children at that time. And my husband and my 2 children had already left for the day. And I had my— I knew that my husband had— we had had a babysitter take care of the kids the night before. So he had been working at one of our rental properties until probably like 1 or 2 in the morning because he had texted me like, hey, just got home, going to bed, I'll see you tomorrow. And, you know, obviously I was awake overnight in the hospital. So one of us had been working for 24 hours straight by the time I came home, and then he was already back at work and I was going to bed. And I could have chose to tell myself a really disempowering story of, man, I'm working 80 hours a week in the hospital. I haven't seen my husband in a few days. My children had to be watched by a babysitter last night. My husband has to do this backbreaking work of renovating this property. What is this all for? You can like feel yourself kind of going—

the shortsightedness of it all. Yeah.

Yeah. It's so easy to get stuck. And, you know, for anyone that's listening that does that, I mean, I still do that. Like, no, no one is perfect. Our brains are designed to do that because our brains are designed to survive right now, this second. And so we have to train ourselves to tell empowering stories. We have to train ourselves to get out of our survival brain and get into our future-oriented demented brain, and that's okay. And I remember, um, just, I, I turned on the song Good Old Days by Macklemore, and I remember dancing to it in the living room probably 2 or 3 times on repeat and just choosing to tell myself an empowered story, choosing to tell myself that if we worked, we were smart, capable, driven people, and if we worked 24 hours a day for just a few years, I didn't know what the future would be, but I knew it would be really good. I just remember kind of dancing. I was like a little delirious from exhaustion and thinking like, I better get to bed because I have to get back to the hospital in like 8 hours or something. I'm not going to see my kids again tonight. But if I, if I'm willing to do this for a few years, like everything will be okay. And, and, and another, another story I want to share there is I am a big believer that real estate is the best way to monetize mindset. You get to practice these really big decisions in real estate or business. There's a lot of zeros attached to it. There's, you know, taking on a risk, starting a business, maybe buying inventory or whatever it is for that entrepreneur. There's a lot of risk involved. And so we really have to practice our mindset. And then the real value there is not the financial compensation that we get. It's who we become as people. That we can then use those mindset tools in the things that matter the most. So something that happened to me recently, about 5 months ago, I was 16 weeks pregnant. It's my 5th baby, healthy pregnancy, had had the ultrasounds, had had the genetic testing. Everything was looking good. One minute I was pregnant, the next I was in labor, and I delivered that baby in a hotel room. With just my husband. We couldn't— we didn't even have enough time to make it to a hospital. And 16 weeks is, you know, too early for life. So he was born, you know, having already passed away. And I could have told myself a really disempowering story of, I lost my baby. Life isn't fair. Why did this happen to me? And again, don't get me wrong, I don't want the listener to listen and think, well, I sometimes have those negative thoughts. I must be a bad person. I'm like, no way, we all have them. I still have them. But I can also tell myself a really empowering story. So when I got home to my 4 living children, all of a sudden those Cheerios all over the floor and one of them's refusing to put their shoes on and they're making messes faster than I can clean them up. And one of them wants me to print them a worksheet, but the other's on the other side of the house and needs me to wipe their bottom. Like all of a sudden I was so grateful for that chaos. Loss. And I thought, I have a baby that I can completely control. He's in an urn on my dresser. I have these 4 children that I can't control at all. They're 4 crazy living, breathing beings doing their own thing. And an empowering story I can tell myself is because I felt that loss so deeply, I can feel this joy so deeply. And I really do think that if I hadn't been, you know, going through this training as a psychiatrist and then going through these, these really challenging years growing this business over the last 10 years, I don't know that I would have had the internal strength to handle the loss. His name was Isaiah. To handle the loss of Isaiah so well, because I had practiced really hard decisions every single day. So when that— there wasn't much of a decision involved, so much as the decision of what story to tell myself. But when that came along, it wasn't easy, but it was easier. And so that's, that's one of the things that I think, you know, is a huge but intangible benefit that comes from having a side gig or getting another certification or whatever it is, but just continuing to stretch ourselves, not getting into, oh, I've, I've, I've reached the kind of the credential in my career, so I'm just going to kind of coast by. But what is the next thing for me? I'm a human being. I never stop learning. I never stop growing. So that when we have these challenges in life that are the real things that matter, we can bring that skill to bear to handle those things.

Everything you, you just talked about and going through that experience, which is so common right now and, and today with pregnancy, beyond, beyond common. So, you know, as, as anybody who, um, is hearing what you just shared and the challenge that you guys went through how unfortunately, how common that is now numbers-wise. And is this something that we as a society, that those who are going through pregnancy have to look forward to more consistently than 20, 30, 40 years ago? The numbers are rising with that, and we can have a whole conversation about where that's coming from. But the idea that resiliency is the key, and I completely agree with you that when you're when you're making big decisions that have multiple digits at the end and not knowing if you're gonna make the money back and not knowing how it's gonna work out and is this contractor going to show up or, or, you know, I have to transfer this credit card balance to another credit card balance, like you're constantly juggling stuff. The more you, you yourself have shared that you've leaned into that, the more you're able to discern that you'll figure it out versus those of us who predispose don't practice that skill, that just stay in the fight or flight or freeze paradigm, don't move forward. I think that's the level of empowerment that I think— what I do love about entrepreneurship is the bigger risks lead to the bigger outcomes. The bigger risks— you can't grow exponentially as a human without— and now there's that dual side of like, well, don't put yourself in a challenge that you know you're going to fail. But then how do you know you're going to fail? You're only going to fail if you do the same thing you've always been doing without bringing in your team of experts and your due diligence and learning about something and who's the expert in this area. And I can wash and repeat, what can I learn from them? You don't need to get in front of Tony Robbins and spend $5,000 for a weekend. You can listen to hundreds of his hours on YouTube or podcasts, whatever, and you can get enough. Obviously, it's great to be in front of Tony and, you know, his energy and his community. But I think that like people are limiting the ability to move forward because they don't know that they don't need to get in front of those people that are experts by paying them. It's great because if you have the mentorship and the relationship, and there is pay-to-play at some level, um, but I think those are the people that are ready to be seriously committed to take a mentor, to find a mentor, to buy a mentor sometimes, um, but it's a reciprocal relationship. And I really do like the discernment of seeing where I started as a private practice, where the day that I signed my lease for my first practice a few days before, the person I was supposed to open up the office with backed out. And I was freaking the eff out. And that rent was $700 a month. But I was freaking the eff out for $700 a month, which now it's kind of like, I can't believe that really, that was like, that's yeah, like, okay, you know, because there was no— that developmental stage of where I was at, And I was doing it all by myself with no guidance. There was no mentorship back then. There was no private practice builders and private in the therapy world. That's literally the last 10, 12, 13 years. So, so I want to, you know, I want to give a challenge before, you know, before we wrap up is to everybody's listening is like, how can you in your own industry, if you're listening and you're in your own industry, what is the, the most crazy curveball way that you can find some additional resources, some additional tools, maybe even a mentor that can give you insight to do something in your industry and career that you're in now that you never thought that you might even be capable of doing, thought would be good for you, thought would be the next professional step without getting feedback from somebody else that's at a different position. That's number one. And number two would be like start, you know, find some time to do research on something that has absolutely nothing related to the industry that you're making, you're doing day to day, and get curious and commit to doing 20 hours of research on that topic just because it's fun, and see where that leads you. And see what— and just like, you know, think out, you know, you don't have to do this, but just think about like, well, if I were to create— what problem needs to be solved in this industry that I'm not finding, that I'm seeing everybody's talking about but no one really has an answer about? And that's like you said, like You know, when you become that specific, like when you can solve a problem uniquely better than anybody else is really where you become an expert. Yeah. And then the other direction would be like, okay, well, for those of you who are struggling financially, for those who are trying to figure out how to get ahead, what do you need to know about real estate that you don't know about real estate besides everybody saying the economy's crap and the interest rates are going up again? It's, you know, it's beginning of March. And, you know, now you live in South Florida and there's really no deals here. Well, there's the rest of the country. You're in California? Well, there's the rest of the country. You're in New York? Well, there's the rest of the country. How uncomfortable are you willing to do to get on a plane on Frontier or Spirit and take a backpack and go stay at a Motel 6 and start exploring?

Yep, yep.

And spend 20 hours on that.

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the me of today, I can see that adventure and just be like very amused by it and humored by it because we've, we've lived those adventures.

Like, that's my point. Exactly.

And I look back at them so fondly I'm so grateful that I was willing to be uncomfortable and to tell myself empowering stories that I get to do this and I get to take the boards down on the $35,000 house that's been boarded up for 9 years. I wonder what's behind door number 1, right? And we still own that home today, what, 12 years later? It has paid itself off many times over. It's been cash flowing ever since. It's provided great housing. The, you know, the neighbors coming to thank us, to say, thank you so much for taking care of this. This has been a blight in this neighborhood, you know, the whole time I've lived here.

And they could have done that. That's the crazy thing. It took someone like, like you and your husband to do that. So like, right, talk about like empowerment, and people still put like, they could have done that themselves.

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, many of the best resources are completely free, right? Think and Grow Rich. Yeah.

Rich Dad Poor Dad.

Poor Dad. Yeah.

Well, do you know, right, from the GoBundance, do you know Doug? Um, what, I don't know if you've heard about Doug. He's a GoBundance guy who Rich Dad Poor Dad was working on the Toyota factory line and, uh, was making 30, 40 grand a year and read Rich Dad Poor Dad and now he owns, I don't know, God knows about 100 different properties. And wow. So he, and so he's a GoBundance guy. Um, so Brittany's one of a good friend of mine and it's just it took— it takes one book sometimes. It takes one YouTube video. It takes one podcast.

If someone has not read that book, that is the book. I remember reading that in medical school and almost— I read a paper copy because I was a little older. And I remember almost like feeling like it was like, like a, you know how like when you ban books, you're supposed to burn them. I almost remember feeling like my hands were hot. I'm like, I shouldn't be reading this. Like, my life is going to change by reading this. This is a dangerous thing for me to read.

It's blasphemy. How dare they?

Because it's so different than typical mindset. Um, but it is, you know, if you talk to entrepreneurs, like, every one of us have read it. It is the thing that opens our mind to like, hmm, there is a different way, and that could be me, and why not me?

Yeah. So let's wrap up. So let's, let's point people in, in the direction of your website. So where would they go to find more information?, um, to talk to you guys, and if any workshops or any class, anything like that? What are some of the additional resources besides, you know, and obviously they can invest with you, but what else is available to them to, to get in touch with you through?

Yeah, um, so our website is meetblackswan.com, and exactly as you mentioned, we have a ton of resources there. We have courses on real estate investing. They're a give-what-you-can model, and 100% of revenue goes to charity, exactly like you're saying, because I want these, these educational resources to be available to people of all, you know, economic stages of life. So it's a give what you can model. We have a free live Zoom call that we do once a month where we dive into a real estate investing topic or a mindset topic. We'll go for about 2 hours. They're live. We have Q&A. They're a ton of fun. The recordings also go out to our mailing list. We have our newsletter that goes out. We have a really active Facebook group, Real Estate at Scale. Our calendars are open. So if anyone wants to block a time to speak with me directly, happy to do that. That's right there on meet blackswan.com. So basically all the resources that we have, ways to stay in touch with us, and then if someone is interested in investing, the waitlist for our next fund is available there as well.

That's amazing. So before we end, um, throw out some books. I know we just talked about a few, but let's, let's just throw out some, you know, they're, they're going to do some due diligence on your, on your website. What are, right, Rich Dad Poor Dad and E-Myth and, um, right, what if there was another one we just talked about, um Think and Grow Rich, right? Napoleon Hill book. What are some of the other— you're some other like every home should have these books.

The Road Less Stupid by Keith Cunningham is really good. It's just brass tacks. Like, no, there's no mindset, no fluff, no love. It's just like these are all of the things that entrepreneurs sometimes don't do well. And here's how you avoid getting into that folly as well. So that's really good. I really like The Surrender Experiment by Michael Singer. Nothing to do with side gigs or entrepreneurship. It's all about the idea that to really live a really magnificent, huge life, we kind of have to surrender to the universe, whether that's God or universe or whomever. We have to, you know, we play a part in it, but we have to surrender to a bigger vision. That has been so powerful.

That's Untethered Soul, Michael Singer.

Yep. Yep. So Surrender Experiment, Untethered Soul kind of go together by Michael Singer. Really good. So those are, those are some things right now I'm reading. It's called I Know How She Does It by Laura Vanderkam. She is a time management expert and she looked at time logs every 15 minutes of 1,000 women of how they spend an entire week and then looks at how do they manage work and family and hobbies and self-care and sleep and taking care of, you know, other people in their lives that they care about, maybe their parents or their siblings or whatever it is. Is really good because it's investigative journalism. And she has a number of time management books. I, I know How She Does It is specifically female focused. I don't know the names of her others. I think one of them is called like 168 Hours or something. But if you Google her name, Laura Vanderkam, I highly recommend that for anyone that wants to live a big life because we only have 24 hours in the day. So how do we spend them in the best way possible to get the best outcomes?

Love it. So first of all, thank you for spending time with us today. And I know there's so much more. I mean, like, there was just so many, right? One of the things I wanted to stop you on, and but people can go back and they can Google also, but like, there's so many words in the real estate, like JV and flipping and right, what are all the venture partners and all these different things that, right? I don't want people to think like they hear these words and they shouldn't know what they mean, because I know we too, right? And those in the entrepreneurial world toss out these things. What's a JV partnership, right? Affiliate, uh, or affiliate partnerships and stuff like that. What's the difference between those two? So, so if there is questions that you have that you're hearing, obviously if a Google search doesn't help you, you can reach out, you know, you can reach out to me and Elaine, I'm sure, right? They can reach out to you on that, especially in the real estate world, like, you know, reach, reach out to Elaine.

That's— yeah, um, a dictionary available on meetblackswan.com.

Well, there you go, right?

That, um, it's a simple thing, but it can set— it can make people feel timid of like, well, I don't even know what the word means, so I don't— how I participate in the conversation so that I don't have a seat at the table. If you're not at the table, then you're not in the deal. I mean, you can see how it's—

I don't want to sound stupid or look stupid or ask the stupid— right, exactly.

So we have a beautifully put together dictionary that you can go download on meetblackswan.com.

Amazing. Well, first of all, again, thank you. Second of all, congrats to, to, to you and your family on all this incredible success, and may it keep going, and may that number become even crazier.

Yeah.

And may, and may you continue to uplift the community around you and the people that, that that are, that are finding you and connecting with you. It's super cool to see him spend this time with you.

Yep, you too. Thank you so much.

Of course. Thanks for listening to the You Winning Life podcast. If you are ready to minimize your personal and professional struggles and maximize your potential, we would love it if you subscribed so you don't miss an episode. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at You Winning Life.