Ep. 184- Please Heal Your Trauma with Kelly Campbell

This is the You Winning Life podcast, your number one source for mastering a positive existence. Each episode, we'll be interviewing exceptional people, giving you empowering insights and guiding you to extraordinary outcomes. Learn from specialists in the worlds of integrative and natural wellness, spirituality, psychology, and entrepreneurship so you too can be winning life. Now here's your host, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified neuro-emotional technique practitioner, LMFT 🎗️ and certified entrepreneur coach Jason Wasser.

So if you're the type of person that wants to learn if unfinished business, childhood or emotional wounds, any type of trauma is affecting how you are engaging with people, whether it's personally or specifically in the professional world, today's episode is going to be for you. As a keynote speaker, workshop facilitator, coach, podcast host, writer, author. Kelly inspires responsibility in leaders across the globe, and she writes for Entrepreneur, written for Forbes, and has their exclusive content on Substack called The New TLC: Trauma, Leadership, and Consciousness. They're also the founder of Conscious Leaders, the world's most diverse and equitable speakers representation agency, empowering organizations to drive lasting results and create transformative change. In the world. Kelly, thanks for hanging out with us.

I'm excited to hang out with you. This is going to be a lot of fun.

Yeah, I know that. So the listeners always hear this, they always hear how I'm always quasi-apologetic of like, man, the pre-call conversation is really where some of the nice stuff happens. Because one of the things I guess I'll share, like a little bit of like what happens behind the scenes, I've never done this. So, you know, there's so many people, there's almost, almost so much time a day, right, time in the day for you to be doing what you're doing, one as a guest but as a practitioner, and to me as a Jason Wasser and hosting some people. And one of the questions that I like asking the people that I'm hanging out with during this time is what can we talk about that they don't always get to talk about, right? You're doing tons of this and you have your own stuff that's going on in your world, and we get stuck in a loop. We get stuck in a pattern. So I just wanted the listeners to know that one of the things I do love asking is what should we be talking about that you don't get enough time to talk about? And that's gonna start me off with the first question I wanna ask you is, right, The book that is out, that's sitting right behind you, is called Heal to Lead. And, you know, this whole topic of trauma, which we're going to get into, right? We talked about you like, nope, being a therapist was not my path.

Right?

But when did you know? And how did you decide? And what came to your awareness about what made these themes and topics so passionate and so important to you?

I love the way that you asked that. Because it's not like, what was your journey? Or like, what led you here? Right? It's like, why is this such a big value for you, right? Like healing and, and helping other people. I think I will say that, you know, I, I owned a business at a very young age. Um, it doesn't even matter what kind of business was. It was a digital marketing agency, but that's not relevant. It was the fact that I owned a business, and it was my way of sort of proving myself in the world, proving myself to myself that I was good enough, smart enough, capable enough, competent enough. But really what I was doing, and I didn't realize this until I sold it 14 years later, but what I was doing was I was proving to my mother that I was good enough, that I was lovable, that I was all of these things that, that I didn't inherently believe because that was not part of, you know, how she showed up in the world for me. Yeah. And I think it was the realization of like, wait a minute, why did I even start that business at 22 years old? Right? I had no business being a 22-year-old CEO. But then I think in retrospect, when I had this, I guess I'll call it a little bit of like a spiritual awakening and an ego death and who knows what else all mixed up together. After the sale of the company, I realized something's wrong here because I had wrapped my identity so much into that CEO title and much into the— I have a, you know, a whole team of people around me that I'm sort of stewarding and, you know, doing this, this great work in the world for mostly nonprofits and things like that. And it made me feel good about myself. But the problem with all of it, again, 2020 in retrospect, was that it was— I was trying to fill a void. And that void was that because I was getting the messaging in childhood that my mother didn't believe that I was good enough, smart enough, fill in the blank. Yeah, I didn't get to believe that about myself. And so this was my like sort of sideways way to try to fill that void. And it really wasn't until that point in my life and I was 36 when I sold it that all of these things started crystallizing for me. And I had always been interested in human behavior and psychology. I minored in college and all these things, but it didn't crystallize until that point. And then I was like, wait a minute, I'm starting to see some correlations in my own life. At that point, I had started consulting and just dabbling into coaching. And I started making these connections and seeing these things in other leaders, how their past trauma that was clearly unresolved was really impacting how they were leading. And it just felt like kind of a mind-blowing experience to say, why? Aren't people talking about this? This feels kind of big and important, and I don't see this bridge out in the world. I see self-help and I see business leadership, but nobody's connecting that dot.

The thing I'm thinking about, or the question that I want to ask you, is maybe a question that I want people to be thinking while they're listening, is, you know, when you're— one's going into a career, whether it's something that someone figures out that they're already passionate about, or they're having a little bit of that emotionally inherited guilt of going into a particular field, whether it's a family business or a family legacy career, is the difference between doing something altruistically and ego-based. And I'm wondering, right, as you were retelling this story, right, there is a sense of altruism, right? I want to connect to something. I want to feel like I'm having impact. And then there's the, you know, the sense of ego of intergenerational stuff that's put on us. And I wonder, you know, from you, from, from the experience of this journey, where, where does one navigate altruism versus ego in this, in this? And anything that might have come up for you?

Yeah, that is a great question. That's a really great question. I don't know that I know the answer. I know that my ego, for all of its, you know, gifts that it, that it gives, did hijack a lot of that. Right. And it— and, and also I can hold that my intention for even the type of business that I created, which was, you know, yes, digital marketing, but specifically for nonprofits and foundations and social impact, it made me feel good. So I was getting a reward from that. Even in the business, we created sort of like a foundation off of it. So that we could raise money for local charities, nonprofits, you know, the local soup kitchen and the local animal shelter and like small but impactful things in our community. Yes, that made me feel good. And also there is an egoic part of like, see, there's like this, this like, what's the word? Almost like a, like a confirmation bias of, see, I am good. See, Mom, you were wrong about me. So I've never been asked that question, and I don't know that I've pulled that apart enough, even in like my own therapy. But, but yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I don't think it's a bad thing that we get reward, right? Like personal reward when we do altruistic things. But creating a whole business around it, there can be some problematic aspects to that. And I, I recognize that in retrospect.

Yeah, and I wonder, right, as one goes through that self-awareness, you know, I started off in nonprofit informal education and programming and then moved into therapy, but I realized most of my day was really doing informal therapy. And I didn't really ever see myself— I didn't know that that was something that I'd actually be good at, but I was just— this is what shows up for you at whatever stage of life. I was joking with my sister the other day. I'm like, yeah, I used to really just want to do like band management and go on tour with bands and find and discover, you know, like find bands and stuff like that. But it's such an interesting— I guess really it's the same thing. I'm helping find people's individual talents and help them positively exploit them, right? In other words, how do you manifest it and how do you grow and how do you diminish the stressors that are causing you not to see the things that you're capable of doing and then bring that to the world, which is kind of like helping, I guess, bring music to the world, right, and helping bands achieve. But it's I see this, and I see this a lot with businesses, and I see this a lot with leaders and businesses, uh, the struggle of the passion that they have. And then, then it splits into two. One is paying the bills and the fear of, like, it, right? You said you had a whole team that you were responsible for, and it's good, and it— but it feels good to be the CEO. And, and then the other side of the coin is the challenges or chaos of managing day-to-day life that one has to have outside of being that role and not just being the CEO or the high-level, you know, C-suite leader or small business owner. And just that is everywhere you go, you're bringing that with you.

Yeah, yeah. And I think this is where these masks— not that this is where the masks get formed, but this is where the masks are put on, right? In terms of when I go to my role where I am a C-suite leader or whatever kind of leader, I wear a particular mask, right? And I don't necessarily show my emotion. I have to feel like I have all the answers. You know, I have to solve the problems. I have to come with solutions. I want my people to respect me, all of that. And then I go home and I can like drop that for the most part. But maybe at home, I'm also the breadwinner and I'm also the one who you know, is provisional. And, you know, so it's, it's a, it's kind of fascinating. I mean, I do think that in all of these ways, we do put on these masks. And I don't know if this is exactly where you were going with that. But, but, you know, also those masks are rooted in how we grew up. Our upbringing has so much to do with why we even choose to put the masks on, why we choose the leadership positions that we choose. You know, you said at some point, you know, maybe if it's a family business, someone doesn't necessarily have agency in that, right? They are sort of inheriting that role. But in the case of entrepreneurs, we really self-invent that. And most of the time, and I wrote an article about this, I think it was in Entrepreneur Magazine, that entrepreneurship itself, for many people, can be a trauma response. It was for me.

Yeah. Well, I grew up in a third generation. Well, that's now taken over by my brother and sister, but it started with my grandfather and I chose not to be in the business because of family politics and family drama and family challenges that I realized that you had agency. I had agency. And even though, you know, the joke is, you know, what will the financial impact would be on one side positive, but how much more money would I have to spend going to therapy than I already am? So you just became a therapist, right? Right. So that's what it is. And funny enough, now, and part of my niche is working with family businesses as well, right? So, but I see where the— I don't know what it was that allowed me, maybe it was catastrophic stuff that happened in my own life, traumas that allow me to make it so black and white clear. That this is not the thing that I want to get into, that not only that, but I also wouldn't enjoy using my talents that way.

Yeah, yeah.

Versus helping people who might be in that industry use their talents because that's what they're passionate about. And how can I help you be passionate? Right. So in other words, it becomes a little bit more meta.

Yeah.

In that regard. So I'm happy to help with my family business as a consultant on the outside and point them in the right direction. But I don't want to be there on the floor selling. Even though it's an incredible business and they're doing an amazing job with it. I don't want to be on the floor selling furniture.

Right, right. And that's a boundary. And that's like, like you said, clarity. I think sometimes trauma can provide that for us, can provide that clarity as to which direction we want to take with our lives. You know, especially as you're kind of going through whatever healing journey you're on, more and more clarity arrives at the front door, and it just gives you that opportunity to say yes to this, Full body, yes, I feel it. Or this is an absolute no. Yeah, like, this is— these are non-negotiables for me, right?

That's one of my favorite ways to help, you know, when I'm sharing things with people is like, all right, is this a hell yes? And I want them, even when working with me, one of the ways I restructured over the last couple of years is there are people who have reached out to me to work with me, or people where I'm uncertain if I want to work with them. And we first talk about exactly what you just said. I want to make sure that this is a hell yes or a heck yes for you, because if it's anything, if it's a heck maybe, then it's still a no. But I love that level of discernment. What's your thoughts on why people might be so tentative? I don't want to go into afraid, but we can go into afraid also, but maybe I'll just stay with tentative or hesitant to be that discerning on—

I think it's pretty clear that they're worried about what the perception is going to be, who they might alienate if they are going to be perceived as not likable, if they're going to lose belonging, you know, all of these things. Again, we can go— every single time we can go back to trauma. Yeah, right. If your upbringing was the first time that you, you know, really advocated for yourself and that made your mother not speak to you for 2 days, like, you're never really— it's going to be really hard for you to advocate for yourself as a natural way of being because that was shut down. You know this better than anyone, but You know, I think that all of it comes back to that upbringing and how you bring that forward. A lot of people who have really chosen, chosen or not chosen to not do the work, it's just going to be harder to make decisions, there's going to be more waffling, they're going to be more, as my best friend says, more yankable, right? I don't want to be yankable in the world, I want to be so rooted and centered that my discernment, my clarity, my boundaries are so healthy and clear and clean. That, for me, is how I get to do the work in the world that I do, whether it's coaching or healing arts and things like that. It feels like there's just so much alignment there. And then I trust myself fully. Therefore, my clients can trust me fully. They can be all in, I can be all in. And as you said, if it's not that way, if it's not that reciprocal, then I don't want to be a part of any relationship that doesn't feel that way.

Where, where does this concept of vulnerability— right, we, we've had a wonderful influence of Brené Brown's work into, into all parts of the world. And I see it has shown up in the business world too, not just the therapy and coaching world. And thank you, Brené Brown, for doing such awesome research and fun presentations as well. But I'm finding that leaders, especially with particular personality types— I'm a big fan of the Enneagram personality style. So You know, let's use the ones that are very powerful leaders organically, that are able to see with conciseness and efficiency how to solve problems, but lack the level of diplomacy to be as effective as possible because their belief is, we're in a corporation, we're in a business structure, we're all adults. It's time to put your big pants on. And just because you don't like how I'm saying it, you need to get over that because you know the job still needs to be done. And just because you don't like how I'm telling it to you is irregardless. You should be doing it. How do we navigate? From your experiences, I think your area of specialty is particularly germane to to looking at that. So what's some of your thoughts?

Yeah, so that would tell me that that kind of leader would be a little bit more authoritarian, a little bit more on the controlling side of the spectrum of people pleasing and people controlling, right? And so kind of like my way or the highway, sort of like the, you know, let's just get down to brass tacks, let's get to business, nothing else kind of matters, right? That alienates people. And so there are certain markers that can sort of illustrate how that's impacting an organization, right? That's going to be a high attrition rate in terms of employees. That's going to look like anytime there's a meeting, anytime there's a group gathering where that leader is pouring something in, an idea, a question or whatever into the group, and there's crickets, right? No one feels safe psychologically safe in that environment to voice their opinion because that might be shut down. Um, clearly this type of leader really doesn't want that kind of challenge, right? But then secretly to maybe their coach or their therapist are complaining that nobody talks at the meeting, right? So there's a lack of self-awareness there. You know, um, that self-awareness has to either come from internal where they're reading a book or listening to a podcast like this and saying, huh, that actually describes pretty well what's happening inside of my organization. I wonder if I have anything to do with that, right? So there has to be a little bit of like turning the tables on themselves. And if there isn't, then it becomes the job of the people around them to say, hey, you know, can I share impact here? And that has to be done with a lot of courage, a lot of vulnerability. A lot of times that can come from HR or other people on the leadership team. But those people have to have the awareness of how to recognize it. Most of the time, I'll be honest, none of that will really change unless they're starting to see the numbers slip.

And so— So it's a KPI, revenue thing more so. Right. It's black and white. It's tactical, tangible. It's not an emotional thing.

It, it, the work is emotional, but it's not in many cases. I won't say all, in many cases, the work isn't as important unless the numbers start to dwindle. So for, again, fortunately or unfortunately, however we get there, we need to get there.

Yeah. And I, I see the structure of hierarchy in those type of, in any company, but any, any dynamic, right? Even in relationships, because what you what you just shared was also like this mirror of like what happens in couples. And what happens in parenting and what happens with friends and what happens with— and the fear to say something or the fear to like, re— receptivity. I think this is something I've been navigating for the last year and just processing with clients and my own journeys and just seeing the world differently is, especially with all the chaos in the world. And right, we're now in an election cycle. We're always in election cycle, but now we're in a big election cycle, right, is receptivity for people just to sit down and hear other people.

Yeah.

And how quickly the walls go up and how definitive we are and how right we are. And this is the right thing. And there's no receptivity. There's no— I can't remember which theorist talked about this. It might be Dr. John Gottman, that in relationship dynamics, it's kind of an infinity loop, that the more— and it could be Imago. I'm not sure which. So please, anybody listening, like, don't hold me to this, but feel free to tell me, send me an Instagram message of which one it is. But it's kind of like when in this dynamic of the boss and the, and the, and, you know, and the worker, that if the person who is in that position takes influence from the person that's, so to speak, under them, that's going to make that person want to come closer and be more motivated to show up for that person. And that's also going to get the boss to feel like more trust of like, wow, this person like actually is invested in that person, is part of the team, and that person Right. It's a championing up.

Yeah.

In a way.

Yeah.

And I see that as such a common thing with, let's say, like, my couples.

Yeah.

That they forget that.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's why, you know, in, in Heal to Lead, like, that last fundamental is lighting the way. Because that's really what it is. When you say championing up, I hear lighting the way. Yeah. Trust begets more trust. And trust and vulnerability all live together, collaboration, all these things. So yeah, I mean, the more that we lean into that, we know, you and I know, and the people who benefit from the work know that that is what's on the other side of it. That's, that's a huge benefit. And like you said, whether that's in a relationship, in a romantic relationship, in couples, or in the workplace. I just had this conversation today with a client, which is kind of funny. We were talking about a particular situation. And she said, oh, this kind of, you know, happens when I talk to my husband. And I'm like, do you— is that interesting? Do you think, you know, it's like, oh right, you're the same person whether you're showing up with this employee or, you know, or your husband. And so one thing that you said also is that some people immediately get defensive. I think a lot of people do that. There are also just as many people who will turn that immediately on themselves and start fawning.

Right.

Well, pleasing start, you know, oh, I did something wrong. They make it mean something about them. And so you kind of have to unpack that also and give people the tools to say there's a different way to do this. This isn't, you know, I think one of our— I don't know, this is kind of a bigger statement, but one of our failures, I think, as a society is that we do not teach conflict resolution. We don't teach ownership and accountability of, you know, hey, I can really hear that feedback. It sounds like you're really disappointed. I dropped you there. I own that. You know, how do we repair this? So we have not been taught repair in relationship. And if that's not taught, then we just keep, you know, banging, butting heads.

Yeah. And I want to take it even and not a step further, but added maybe another layer of something of just going through my own trauma journey is understanding what one's primary trauma response is in a situation. So you just use the word fawning, which I only heard, go figure, from my chiropractor a year and a half ago, because he is all about trauma responses in the nervous system. That's like, he's awesome. Shout out Jay, to you. But he's all about trauma recall in the body.

Yeah.

And figuring out how can I help my clients as a chiropractor figure out how their body is going into— right, forget the nervous— well, the nervous system, the body's all connected, but forget the mental side of it. But what is your body's physical response that's showing up when I have you on the table? Is this a fight or a flight or a flee? And then he started adding this fawn concept. So, it's been a long time since I had an episode specifically on this. From your understanding, from your perspective, as you would share it with your, with your clients, how would you explain each one of those, you know, fight, flight, flee, fawn, right? And Jason, and if there's any other ideas, just in a quick, you know, overview for the listeners to just refresh there, if they, or if they've never heard this idea before.

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, yes, in the nervous system, we have these kind of like, I'll call it like, um, animalistic, you know, kind of, uh, pre-programmed ways of being, right? And they're not necessarily bad. These are things that protected us when we were, um, back in caveman days, right? So there is this idea that, you know, if you need to, you can be, um, essentially like offensive, right? You can be in that fight state, or it might have made sense for you again, back in this, back in that scenario to run away because that's actually what was going to give you safety. All of these things, we can go through them all, but all of them are essentially your nervous system's ability or capacity to keep you safe. So it's sort of deciding in a millisecond how you are going to respond, right? Given the data that, you know, it like collects all of this data visually through all of the senses, what you're hearing, what you're sensing, every single thing, and then determining what is the right response for you in this moment. When you layer trauma into the picture, that, let's call it that animalistic, that sort of reptilian brain, that amygdala is kind of hijacked a little bit because it's not wired the same way anymore, right? Now, certain things that maybe you should have run away from, now you're, you're fighting because that's sort of what you were shown or what you were— what was modeled for you during, during childhood. So whether you're running away, whether you're freezing, whether you're fighting, or whether you're folding, which is kind of fawning, um, those are all attempts to keep you safe physically, mentally, emotionally, all of it. And we don't really have control over that because, as you said, it's not a stored memory in the brain, it's a stored memory in the body. And we can thank, you know, people like Bessel van der Kolk and Gabor Maté and all of these people who have done a ton of research and written beautiful, you know, bodies of work about how much trauma is really stored in the body.

Yeah.

So yeah, and Peter Levine, obviously, right?

Stephen Porges, polyvagal theory stuff, all those things. Yeah. And it's really interesting. So the way I heard fawning was pleasing to appease.

Yeah.

In other words, right, it's the being— it's so agreeable and so amenable to delay any immediate threat, danger, or conflict, but it just pushes it down, you know, further on, and it doesn't really solve it. So it then becomes a pressure cooker again. Right. And then, and the listeners, you got— y'all can go online and You can find an assessment, and I'll try to find it and put it in the show notes. But there are multiple, I'm sure there are multiple assessments online within 4 minutes, you can find out what your primary response is, if you, if it's not obvious to you, and you might have two, right? So there might be two primary, or might be contextual depending on what's going on. But usually we have our one or two primary responses to these, to these scenarios.

I do find that that's true. And also, it is contextual, it is situational. And we can sort of shift depending upon where we are in our lives.

So developmental as well.

Developmental, all of it. In the book, I actually have descriptions of these, but through the lens of trauma and leadership style. So just, just a slightly different take on the 4 Fs.

Well, that's what's so fabulous is of what you're doing is people don't really— when you talk about entrepreneurship, and we talk about this idea of like being really fully responsible and accountable for your own outcomes, that's where I love leaning into. And one of my mentors, which we didn't even get into, but I saw that there's a connection to Business Finishing School that you might have with Rick Sapio. Somehow on Instagram, there was a connection to that. But one of the, one of the things is that Rick teaches Everybody, when you, when you as a person or one as a family member or as a partner in a business, whatever level of life someone's in, any arena, when someone decides that they're becoming fully accountable for all of their outcomes, then you're being entrepreneurial. Hmm.

That's interesting. Okay.

Right. So if you think about like you go into the average business and they have on their wall, they have like their core values and their mission statement and like, this is what we are and this is who we serve. His whole thing is why, why aren't we doing that in every aspect of our life?

Yeah. Yeah. So what he's calling entrepreneurial, I think from the context that you're sharing, that's what I'm calling high conscious. Yeah. So it's like taking that, that same principle, practice, way of being and applying that across the board, no matter what relationship or situation you find yourself in.

Yeah, yeah. And it does, it takes the work, it takes, it's not an overnight fix. I just turned 46 and I started going back to therapy to my, an old, an old therapist having gone through like a handful here and there and dabbling in a lot of the mind-body stuff. And you know, then now hitting, after I peeled away those layers, and it's a new wall, and you're like, oh, I didn't realize that was there. So now I'm going to go back to that process and realizing how much trauma that intellectually I knew existed. And I remember those things I know, and I defined it as trauma, not realizing where that's showing up still today.

Right?

Not necessarily in my sessions with my clients, but maybe as a business owner, as the entrepreneurial side, or even in my like downtime, my free time. And just, you know, I'll share the story that like last week I was debating to go, do I want to go to Trader Joe's? Do I want to go to Sprouts? Do I want to go to Costco? And just, you know, and I'm like, but I could do all those on Instagram. I mean, on Instacart. And I'm like, man, but I want to get out of the house. I'm like, yeah, but I can do it all on Instacart. I don't have to deal with like the headache of the sensory input of Costco on a weekend. And right, and, and I remember just standing there in my living room for about a minute, just staring at my bookshelf, frozen.

Yeah.

Not dissociated. I didn't have a dissociative experience, but just realizing how frozen I got for such a simple thing that could have been just an adventure out, an afternoon out to just run some errands. And realizing, as I said, like, you're not moving right now. Why? Why? Why aren't you? Why are you stuck standing here in this one position? And it's really looking at it from a trauma-informed lens of like, wow, even something that mundane of going grocery shopping could cause that type of response with somebody.

Yeah, I don't think a lot of people talk about the mundane aspects. Like, that was a great example of that. I don't— because it requires vulnerability, right? There could be people saying like, what's wrong with you? Like, that's crazy. Yeah, I would venture to guess that almost every person that you ever talk to has experienced something like that in a mundane act of sort of negotiating with themselves and being caught in this oscillated place of inaction. Literally, I'm sure that that happens to me less. Yeah.

Or decision-making on like, you're at the store and you're deciding, "Do I want this brand or do I want that brand? Well, okay, which one's 30 cents more? But is it this? Is it—" Right? It becomes that intellectual acrobatics of— again, I'm looking at it maybe through an an Enneagram lens of like, okay, so what are you trying to achieve there? Is it like, I haven't done enough research? Am I making sure I get the right product? Is it about saving? Is it about what is it going to look like to others? Is it going to be— is this the best thing? Is this the most fun-looking product? Right? On fun-looking experience, it's all going to be informed by one of those things, right, as well. But that can also all be from— I mean, right, that's also trauma-informed of like, well, what happens if— right, I want to actually wrote down a question based on what you said about no longer having to appease mom's desire for you was— right, going back, this literally ties right into this, which would be for the listeners and for you as well. And for me as well. What would we do if we didn't have to prove anything to anybody anymore? If we woke up tomorrow and there was no wrong decision, there was no wrong choice? It's what feels the most playful? What feels the most light? Now, obviously, ethics, boundaries, and, you know, all those other good things need to be in play. Because, you know, I'm not saying go out and, you know, spend a million dollars in Vegas this weekend. But if we woke up tomorrow, and those stories and narratives were no longer running through our nervous system, consciously and unconsciously, yeah, what would be— what would be the first thing we would notice different?

I mean, just First of all, for me, that would be, I think, a lack of anxiety and worry. It would feel so much lighter in my body. I wouldn't have this like heaviness, you know, sort of like an intangible heaviness that might be swirling in my body, in my mind, all of it. And I would think about things much more creatively, meaning I would, I might not start to edit myself prior to even taking, you know, any kind of like, not even action. But I think sometimes for me in particular, it can be hard to dream. I mean, like daydream or dream about things that I might want to do or want to have or want to places to go. Because automatically, you know, all of this, this other stuff, head junk, comes in and starts to edit the dreaming.

So do you think it would be more raw? Like, you would, you would, right? I mean, I guess that word's coming to me. That's a natural word. Like, and I see it for me also, so I can relate to everything you're saying, is, yeah, it would be right. The being more raw would be like uncensored, unfiltered, but not in a way of like being offensive, but just putting it out there and being like, I don't know, this for shits and giggles, let me try this out, right? And yeah, before you find all the— we, which we all do— find all the reasons why it won't work or why it won't be received or why it won't be liked.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a practice, right? I mean, try to do this. This is why we have meditation practices. This is why we have, you know, all of the mind-body stuff, all the somatic practices that we can engage with. To get some of these, this stuck trauma and sort of dense energy out of the body, because that's actually what's hijacking it. That's what's creating a lot of the anxieties and the worry and the overwhelm. So trying to empty it out. And I think of that, the emptying out, like the clearing or cleansing, I think of that as a practice. So whether that's, you know, using some palo santo and like actually cleansing my body or doing a core energetics retreat like I'm doing this weekend, just constantly just clearing and cleansing as, as a practice, because that headspace, that cerebral—

I don't even know what to call it. Well, it's neck up, body down. Yeah. Yeah. But then also, right, the whole Descartes, you know, separating, right, the whole, the whole mind-body stuff. But it's, yeah, everything. And that's where my practice comes in with that integrative mind-body medicine approach and where it does get somatically stuck in the, the idea that like, you know, someone's suffering with something and they go to their doctor, like, I don't know, it's kind of psychosomatic. Well, that's literally what it means, psyche soma, right? It's, it's, it's your body is experiencing something that is in us as emotions. And those who have listened and been on the journey of when we talk about NET and physiology, just the idea of neuropeptides that Dr. Candace Pert— if you, I don't know if you've read this book, Molecules of Emotion by Dr. Candace Pert, highly recommend for anybody who hasn't yet read that. One, it's awesome because of all the science of emotions, but two, it talks about her journey being a female scientist and the difficulties of that period of time of being respected and present, you know, and going through that in the good old boys club. So it hits two really important stones. But this idea of physiology and stress and emotions and being stuck in our body where we— in Chinese medicine, the five element theory where we have each of the meridians are connected to different body organs and different body organs are connected to to, to sets of emotions. So just for the listeners here, you write, right, you have the bladder meridian, or the water meridian is bladder kidney. But you also have fear and timidity and uncertainty. And, right, those are the emotions connected to that. So, you know, that's where we have like, oh my gosh, I was so afraid, I almost peed myself, right? That's bladder fear, right? That's where kind of that comes from. So as you're talking, I know one of the things you and I have in common is, at some point in our journeys, we did some energy healing type trainings, more specifically in the realm of Reiki. But where, where would that play out? Like when you're working with your clients, what type of approaches would you— right, how would you facilitate that in a one-on-one situation or in a retreat situation?

Yeah, well, I, I mean, first of all, like just the energetics and the principles of Reiki and the ability to kind of, you know, not necessarily change the energy, but certainly make sure that I have really good boundaries around other people's energy, which I cannot change, right? Right. But then on a more practical or one-on-one level, with some of my coaching clients, we might have actually a separate session where I am actually facilitating Reiki as the session. So I, I do kind of a hybrid with some clients of trauma-informed leadership coaching and Reiki. So it's, it's, you know, very specific to those particular modalities in some of the, some of the cases.

Yeah. And I can imagine just, you know, knowing, knowing that world of just, you know, go, go, go, go, go into one, the idea of many people saying, oh, this is BS, this is just some woo-woo stuff and whatever, but not realizing how much research there is, how much journal articles are and physiology of stress and all these other things and energy. Everything is made of energy, right? Now we know that, we know, right? But I just, I can imagine just certain personalities build it. Maybe I'll say it this way. I'm finding that the more resistance people have about a certain thing could actually be the thing that can help them the most. When I look at it from a different perspective.

Sure. I mean, that, that kind of sums up like anyone who's like, trauma healing, like, that's ridiculous. Or like therapy, that's for people who are crazy, right?

It's like, yeah, that covers— I bumped into a buddy of mine yesterday, and he's like, how are the crazies? I'm like, I don't see any. You know, it's just, that's not what my practice is about. It's the worried well. It's, it's clients who are right. I have a prequalification of who I'm working with that, you know, you have to be in that, like, it's literally on the thing. Do you listen to podcasts and watch YouTube videos? And do you believe that personal development, uh, and being a lifelong learner is important to you. If so, give me a call. If not, go find another therapist, right? That's like, right, like first, first line of discernment of people. So it's interesting just to have this, this, this idea being presented of like, are you still— do you see the crazies? And I'm like, and I think I know this person knows that there might be some people of their social peer group that might— may or may not be some of my— some of my clients, right? So it's kind of funny that that's the language that they use. But I always like this idea of, you know, outside of New York, maybe let's say 20 years ago, the '80s and '90s, maybe it's a little bit longer than that at this point, sorry. But everybody like in New York, it was like, oh, do you have a therapist? And they're like, of course. And everywhere else is like, do you have a therapist? Oh, that's weird, right? Like New York, like this, there was like this like thing of like, You know, certainly maybe in California as well and some other places of like, what do you mean you're not working on yourself? That's weird. Versus what do you mean you have a therapist? That's weird. So I'm glad that all of these things are shifting and moving into—

Shifting and moving. I, you know, I would say it's getting closer to critical mass, but we're not there yet. Almost. We're so close. We're not there yet. But yeah, I mean, yeah, they're of course on the coast. There are, it's just a little bit more open-minded for whatever reason.

For whatever reason. Yeah. What's the energy of the place? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I see it. I also, I realized this, like, gosh, I haven't even talked about, thank you for like, I haven't talked about this particular thing. And it's going to sound for those of you who are listening and have been along this journey, this might sound a little out there to you. But there's a whole theory of ley lines of like energetic lines through the right, I know you, I know you were gonna get this. But I'm wondering like certain, like certain regions in certain areas like attract certain certain energies and why, uh, towns or cities are known for certain things. Yeah. And those are really just energetic, you know, draws to, to that. Like, why is Boulder, Colorado different than Denver? But Denver still has a little bit of like that, like, you know, whatever it could be. Um, even though it's not on— it's not a water town, right? It's not the East or West Coast. It's not, right? But what is it about that? Or you know, certain places that attract and draw certain type of industries, even. Yeah, right. San Francisco, Silicon Valley.

Yeah. Austin, Texas, keep it weird. Right.

Which could also be Portland. So yeah, they trade off the weirdness factor, I guess, back and forth. But let's— before, as we wrap up, let's talk a little bit about— right, the book just came out.

Yeah, I guess it was the tail end of April. So it's been out for a few months. Few months. Yeah, that's still fresh and new.

Okay, so where, where, where is the best? Like, who really— like, this is like you said, like, as long as it lands, we talked about this in the previous thing, as long as it lands with the right people. Yeah. How do the right people know that this book is for them?

I think all entrepreneurs, number one, because again, my lens is you Not all entrepreneurs are trying to prove something, but there's a drive and a motivation that I think needs to be kind of checked, right, in entrepreneurship. So I would say all entrepreneurs, um, any emerging or established leaders. So inside of organizations, whether there's someone up and coming, kind of being groomed for leadership roles, there's lots of stuff that you don't want to be bringing in. From your past into your new leadership role. You don't wanna be projecting any unhealed pain onto the people who will be working, you know, under your stewardship. So like, kind of get to it before you start projecting. That would be for the emerging leaders. They're gonna read this book from a slightly different lens from an established leader who's already probably projecting pain onto other people and not necessarily thinking of the people that they're leading as under their stewardship. So it, it's changes the viewpoint a little bit as to like, what we're actually doing here. What is the purpose of leadership? It is not to make money. It is not to make money.

And so— That word stewardship is more profound than one might think. Yes. And it's so underused. I mean, I hear it like maybe in like certain like religious circles. But I don't hear it as much in entrepreneurship. I mean, we had the whole idea of conscious capitalism, which was a lot of what you're talking about, right? The more good we do, the more money we can make, the more more money we can give back and where we can decide to choose, right? Especially when you said you were working with nonprofits and, and being able to do that with nonprofits. But then that was where I guess conscious capitalism came up for for-profits of, wow, we can have really— like Patagonia, right? Great example. Or, you know, those type of companies that were part of that movement. Whole Foods originally, Starbucks originally, right? Unfortunately, some of these companies have lost their way, um, but it's, it's interesting to see that, right? It's not necessarily about making money, it's about making money as a tool to do more good in that regard. Why are we all here?

We're not here to just fill up our bank accounts until there's just endless, a few people who just have so much money that the power dynamics then become totally lopsided. We do see a few people like that in the world. We don't need more of them, right? No.

And there always will be that, right? I don't know if that's a shift. I don't know if that will change. As much as the consciousness around if you're in that ability to be in that role, how can you change what that— all those resources that you can have impact to do?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the, the original founder of Patagonia did not have to essentially add Earth as a stakeholder in his company and create a foundation around that, right, to give back. He didn't have to do that. Elon Musk doesn't have to use the money that he has accumulated in the ways that he's using, but he's choosing that path, right? Right.

Well, it's interesting because Elon, I'm just fascinated by him just from many reasons. Me too. Yeah, yeah, right?

Me too. I've written a lot about him.

Oh, okay, cool. So I definitely want to delve into that from your perspective. I'm fascinated because I think the wonderment of space, right? If you just watch that space documentary, I'm not sure if it was on Prime or Netflix, but basically on one level maybe save the space industry entirely from collapse because NASA was not doing such a great job at it and how that whole process happened. So I remember watching that documentary about 2 years ago, and this is before people on Twitter and all these other things, and, you know, but I was just like, it's like the wonderment of a child, right? That like when we lose this wonderment, when we lose like, especially like in entrepreneurship and business, like when we lose the passion, again going back to the first thing why we started doing this anyway, right?

So yeah, is SpaceX gonna be, you know, that's interesting to me because I'm not 100% sure that all any of those things are truly his passion. When, so do you know about his family of origin?

A little bit, yeah, a little bit. But sure, but sure, but sure.

He grew up, he was bullied, um, incredibly by his father and incredibly by his schoolmates, and he feeling so powerless as a child that at 8 years old he said something to his father like, when I grow up, I'm going to be the richest man in America. And every day since he said that at 8 years old, he has made strides.

He has like pushed through everything, manifested all that stuff, but well, forcefully, in a way, forcefully, and stepped on a lot of people.

And, you know, really, um, I don't know. That's where the self-awareness component comes in, right?

I think that's really where— right, one, him having been baby— I'm not sure when he was diagnosed or self-diagnosed with, right, with, with, with, uh, any autism spectrum related stuff. Yeah. Um, but I think that plays a key factor into that self-awareness from— for his particular self. Obviously there are many people who do have— who are on the spectrum who do have self-awareness at a different level. Um, but yeah, it's, it's sad because like On one side, I still have that hope in humanity that one day even that type of personality will figure it out and there'll be more of the altruism showing. Oh, that there'll be support for them. Yeah, yeah, to do that healing and to do it at that level. But, but what a great example of like, right, one of the wealthiest people in the world who can have this infinite— like, yeah, technically could solve homelessness, technically could solve, right, food, uh, you know, insolvency and all these wonderful things. And you have 3 or 4 people together that can easily, easily solve that. But it's— this is like a whole nother, whole nother thing. But it, but it, but it is trauma-informed. Because I wonder if the lens that, right, we get so stuck in, in, in that box, that the more tighter that box becomes, right, the more it becomes difficult to see. And I think maybe that's just the far-out extreme example. Of that, right? So it's interesting because, yeah, it all just goes back to healing.

Yeah, 100%. I will send you the link though.

Please. Oh, I'm so fascinated. So fascinated. Because my running joke is like, you know, no one's gonna make it off this planet alive except for Elon, but he's still gonna be alone. Right, right. So which is sad because like, I like— it hurts. Like, I like— I don't want to wish that for anybody. But I also like, what do you— what do you What are you not doing to fix that type of paradigm? Right? So, but also, like, is—

I guess my question back to that would be, well, what is his value? Actually connection. Right? Because if his value is not connection, he doesn't mind doing these things alone.

Right? So, and again, that could be a feature of, you know, of the psychological makeup of, of things. But all right, so before we wrap up, let's— a few different places. I know you have your, your agency stuff, right? If Conscious by the Leaders. I just want to like just quickly, quickly, quickly, because there's just so many cool things that you are doing. And I'm like kind of like super excited about like hearing this also because I only dabbled at the surface. But for just the listeners to know, so you— there's, there's the Heal to Lead book, obviously there's the coaching and there's business stuff, but you also have some other stuff that you're—

so Consciousness Leaders, which is where I think you're, you're talking about. So that is completely separate. Entity that I founded in 2021. That is a speakers agency specifically for representing speakers who are BIPOC, LGBTQ, neurodiverse, disabled, and military veterans. And so most of the people, all of the people in there would have a pretty difficult time getting represented by a traditional speakers bureau, because their business model is not inclusive, you know, from the onset. So really just kind of disrupted that industry by creating this. I saw it as a gap after the murder of George Floyd. And so yeah, that's been running for, I guess, about 3 and a half years now. And so we pair those speakers with organizations of all different sizes and types, government, corporate, nonprofit, you name it, for different workshops and keynotes and conferences and things like that. So that, you know, there's more of this kind of conversation in the world. Personal development, conscious leadership, empathy and leadership, mental health in the workplace, you name it. So we've got some really, really interesting topics and themes that most, I would say most traditional speakers agencies do not necessarily cover or offer. And we represent about 200 and something people at this point. That's fabulous.

Do you find that there is a certain, like, a cycle of those different categories that are rotating? Like, or do you feel like, like, right now, is there something that's like, hey, I really am looking for this versus like 6 months or a year ago, they were looking more for a different theme or category? Or is it just seems pretty generic? You know, everybody's looking for everything right now.

It's a good question. I would say predominantly across the board, which does not have seasonality, empathy and leadership, like, so developing more empathetic leaders and mental health in the workplace, not necessarily just like stress management and overwhelm reduction and things like that, but like actual mental health in the workplace. Those two things tend to not have a seasonality to them. And then of course you have your history and different observance months, which are, you know—

Cultural competency, beyond cultural competency.

Yeah, those are going to attract inquiries for speakers who can speak to those. Those particular things. So there is that. And then, you know, there's retreats and things all throughout the year. But because I think we don't serve one particular niche in terms of the pairing, like the clients are coming from all different— it could be Amazon, Target, the, you know, some government agency, a small business. It really just depends on, you know, who has a need and how they find us. And if they're willing to work with of, you know, um, an organization that focuses where we do versus going to one of the traditional bureaus.

Well, then I'm gonna push anybody who's listening that if any of that specifically resonates differently than what we originally had our conversation about, right, please, please find, you know, and connect, you know. Yeah.

And I think the ethos of that is really healing. It's using the workplace or the work environment to heal. You know, which is back to Conscious Capitalism, which turned into Conscious Leadership, which I feel like I'm sort of building on to say high conscious leadership is, yes, all the things that you talk about in Conscious Leadership, but really we're dialing in on doing the work. It's the personal development work that really dialing in on the healing journey that it makes a difference between a conscious leader and a high conscious leader.

Yeah, love it. All right. So before we wrap it up, where, where are some of the places people should be going to, to check out all this stuff?

I think that the best place is just my website, which is klcampbell.com. You can get information about coaching, retreats, book, all the things. And Consciousness Leaders, it's a little hard to spell, but it literally is just consciousnessleaders.com.

Awesome. First of all, again, thank you. This is— it's always exciting to talk about, you know, Forget that. Yes, the trauma stuff, but getting behind what's really going on and being able to hang out in a little bit of a vulnerable space and share a little bit more about ourselves on a podcast. Because, like I asked you before in our pregame, was what are some of the topics that you might— that I shared, right? What are some of the things we can get into? And it's really nice when it just evolves. And I love an organic conversation like this.

I really appreciate it, Jason Wasser.

Well, my pleasure. And for everybody else who's listening, please, please, please check out all of Kelly's resources and the book Heal to Lead. It is not only— it sounds like it's gonna be amazing, but the COVID is actually just really beautiful and just relaxing and zen. And so that alone, right? People who judge a book by its cover, you should judge this one very favorably. Judge it very favorably. And again, like always, if there's anybody who you know that could benefit from this, if you have any— if you're not the leader of the business yourself, but you know someone who is, or there's just any, you know, just any aspects of trauma and healing and fight or flight and any of this stuff, right? Please, please feel free to share it out. And then, you know, all the other BS, like, like, subscribe, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever. But yeah, looking forward as we're getting closer to episode 200. And I would love to hear— yeah, so, you know, my whole thing is like, what happens at 200? And I don't know yet. Like, I don't know if I'm gonna just continue doing this and having, you know, more— being more discerning with who I'm having on the show. I don't know if I'm gonna take it into a different direction. I don't know if I'm going to continue doing it. But I want maybe, you know, if y'all are listening to this, reach out to me and let me know what you'd like to hear more of and, you know, what type of guests you want. And if you want more of this type of subject, which I love talking about, so thank you, Kelly, right? That, you know, do we want to go around it, like just focus more niche and instead of more generic? But that's— I'm going to leave it up to also for people to, to reach out. So y'all will hear— we'll check in with you in the next episode and talk to you soon.

Thanks for listening to the You Winning Life podcast. If you are ready to to minimize your personal and professional struggles and maximize your potential, we would love it if you subscribed so you don't miss an episode. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Jason Wasser LMFT 🎗️.