Ep. 186-"Strength in Surrender" with Extreme Athlete Matt Dawson

This is the You Winning Life Podcast, your number one source for mastering a positive existence. Each episode, we'll be interviewing exceptional people, giving you empowering insights and guiding you to extraordinary outcomes. Learn from specialists in the worlds of integrative and natural wellness, spirituality, psychology, and entrepreneurship so you too can be winning life. Now here's your host, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified neuro-emotional technique practitioner, trainer and certified entrepreneur coach Jason Wasser.

Today's episode is with guest Matt Dawson, founder of Dawson's Peak Foundation. He is a 6-time world record-holding endurance athlete, sought-after public speaker, lifestyle performance mentor, and founder of Dawson's Peak Foundation. His new book, Only the Strong Surrender, will be coming out soon. And this book offers a gripping narrative of resilience and transformation through facing many of the world's most extreme physical challenges, including climbing the highest peak on each continent, skiing to the South Pole, rowing the Atlantic Ocean, and trekking solo and unsupported across the Mojave Desert and Death Valley in California. Like always, if there's any value to you or anybody else you think would benefit, please leave us a review. And also, we would love it if you followed us on social media, Jason Wasser LMFT 🎗️️, and we look forward to hearing from you and your feedback and any other type of episodes or topics that you would be interested in hearing more about.

Now, listen, I appreciate you having me, and listen, all my closest friends call me Dawson.

All right, we're gonna go right to that. Perfect, perfect. So y'all got that out there too. So making sure that when you reach out— and because I know that our pre-conversation, and it's, and it's, and it's a running theme in my, uh, conversations with people that I should always just hit record on the pre-conversation because there's just so much incredible stuff in there, but it's always like brainstorming time. So I'm really excited for, for what we're going to be talking about. So number one, there's a book coming out, and it's coming out in, in January, and just, you know, a month and change. Um, it seems like it, from, from us starting off our conversation, maybe that's the reverse engineer part of, of where to go, because obviously people can listen to awesome episodes of you talking and go on your social media and follow you in here and see a lot of the stuff you're, you're doing. And we're going to get into that, but I think maybe let's just start off with the reverse engineer of the book as this new culmination of where you're at and where you're heading.

Yeah. Now, look, I appreciate you mentioning that.

Yeah.

And I'm very excited about it. Strength and Surrender. It's my first book, as you mentioned. You know, January 7th, it's coming out, the e-book, the audio, and the paperback. But the e-book is already available for presales. We've already hit number one Amazon new release, which I was obviously excited about. But, you know, in putting this thing together, is I wanted to create a visceral human experience. Is I didn't want to just write another book about, oh, the mountain was this tall and the pack weighed this much, or the desert was 100 degrees and my feet were bleeding and, you know, all that kind of stuff. Because I think that's, that's been done, you know, a lot. Yeah, it's been done well. Uh, so there are certainly elements of that in there, but really the, the purpose of it and the driver of the book is, is my experience. And it's also tied into all of our experience. So just, there's all— there's a story about, you know, my, you know, personal development and evolution, you know, from childhood until now, especially the past couple years, starting the charity, setting the records, all that kind of stuff. But more importantly, inside of all that, there are lessons that are integrated inside every single chapter which are universal to us all, that just for being people facing things and all the, you know, and what I've learned in that. Then also at the end of each chapter are my big kind of pillars, which I call meditations, which are the main things that I've learned from Strength and Surrender. And then also there are direct sections in there from Ask Yourself and Apply Yourself, where you can take, you know, what you just read and ask yourself these very direct personal questions. You can do that work and then, you know, apply it yourself instantly. Where, you know, whether it's just, you know, one chapter, if you read one chapter a day, I'm going to give you something, you know, every single day where you can actually, you know, put this into immediate application and hopefully experience some of the benefits, you know, that I've experienced.

That's incredible. So then that takes me to the next question is, and I haven't asked this question yet ever in 180-something episodes. So you're inspiring me to do something.

Now I'm nervous.

No, no, no, no. Because I'm so intimidating, right? So, I'm curious because we can look at you, we can follow you on social media, we can read the book, you know, and they're gonna see this man that is working out, is jacked, is doing these crazy feats of adventure and taking on some big, you know, knocking down some Goliaths in their life. I'm really curious about what that story was in your mind, the stuff that you would say to yourself that probably many people out here listening to this conversation might be saying them to themselves too, that was just getting you so stuck that you finally said, eff it, I'm done with this. I'm done with this self-talk. I'm done with these beliefs about myself. I'm done with these beliefs about the world. What were those things that you had to shed to yourself in order to start this journey?

Yeah, I think that's a very insightful question, and I want to be clear is that the things that I work to shed is some of them I was able to shed and I was able to leave where they were and move past them. But there are still a number of them I still battle with on a daily basis. And I think that's important to understand is because when you hear about people kind of quote unquote getting on their path and starting to do all these things, we have a tendency to believe that it's just fairy tales and gumdrops and rainbows and we're no longer in any pain or confusion or frustration. But I still battle this stuff literally on a daily basis, you know, these times of doubt and negative self-talk. And I think that that's something that we're all going to kind of battle in various degrees, you know, throughout our lives. I think probably the biggest one And this was back in 2017, and we can get into it, like, you know, more later. But sure, when I kind of had a breakdown and, and realized that I was at a point in my life where I wanted to either check in or check out, like, I mean, I was, I was at a breaking point. And that's where I went to, to Mount Everest region for the first time and had a big breakdown and a breakthrough and, and discovered what I felt was the purpose of my life. And that's really my life began to change. But leading to that point is I was just so disconnected from everyone and everything. And I just believed that I was a bad person. I didn't deserve to be loved. I would find some way of screwing things up in my life. And even though, look, I'd achieved a fair amount of success in my life, those were the things that were always on repeat for me. And it— with that, I wasn't able to feel any really positive emotions. I really couldn't feel love. I couldn't receive love. I didn't feel joy or contentment or satisfaction. It was just always pain, anger, confusion, and frustration. And it just, it got to that point where I couldn't take it any longer. And it just, in that, there's the passing of my mother, breaking up with a girlfriend. It's just the whole world was just kind of coming down. And there's nothing special about that. There's nothing special about the pain I was experiencing. We all experience this thing in varying ways to various degrees. But that was really the start of it, was just wanting to, you know, get away from that and just finally reaching that point where I needed more in my life. I needed to become more. I needed to be able to connect to others and not to feel alone and isolated in my pain.

I'm navigating this conversation with many clients, uh, of reflexive viewpoints of, you know, seeing people step into victimhood and then being frustrated with people who are playing victims in their lives and then being able to reflect on themselves. But how are you playing a victim to that story?

And that's the thing, is it's far too often— I think that that's a fantastic point, especially today where people are making careers out of being victims and people are building empires because other people are acting as victims. And look, there's— in some capacity, in some way, at some point, we're all victims to other things and people and processes and, you know, fill in the blank. Yeah. I think that's the biggest thing that we all need to understand is we all have so much more power than we, than we want to believe. And I think a lot of times the greatest fear is not that people aren't capable, but that they're more capable than they want to believe. Because, because with that capacity comes a responsibility. And then you really can't just sit back and say, well, my life will only be better when this person changes. That never works. It's, my life is going to be better when I change. And we, when we kind of pick up that you know, you know, pick up that challenge and understand that we're not these hapless, helpless victims, but we have the power to do things, that's when our lives truly change. Yeah.

Yeah. There's a concept in Jewish spirituality about the Hebrew phrase is dalet amot, which is like your, you know, your 4 cubits of space. And this is your, you know, this is your domain, right? And what you let in, what you don't let in, what you navigate, what you choose to pay attention to, who you choose to be friends with, where you choose to spend your money. Is all up to you. And, and, and I'm finding that people are giving up and abandoning, right, boundaries, number one. Number two is where they're letting things in that they're justifying and, and holding that, well, because of this, therefore that reasoning. And, and also, like you said, the fear factor. And when you were saying what you were saying, I wonder how much there's a fear of becoming powerful and then the fear of them perpetuating some type of power over someone else just because this is the way we're being taught, that someone either has to be in power, and if you're in power, someone else doesn't have power, versus we can share strength, we can share continuity, we can share connectiveness, we can share meaningful rising tides raises all ships paradigm. And how much of that needs to shift, of you standing in your power is actually a pillar to the world it's not going to knock down someone else's pillar.

Yeah, no, look, I think that's a very, that's a very interesting point you brought up. And just think about off top of my head, I don't know if I've ever thought about someone's apprehension to displaying or recognizing their power because of a potential hesitation regarding how they're going to use that power. Uh, I think that certainly comes into play in, in my experience. I think it's probably a much smaller element than I think people are just primarily concerned with, if I am powerful, now I don't really have an excuse not— yeah, I don't really have an excuse now not to get off the couch or not to wash the car or go to my, my kids' recital or to be there as the husband or wife I need to be. I think in my experience, that's the majority of the reason why people don't assume the power, because, you know, a lot of times we're looking for a free lunch or just looking to be late, you know, trying to be lazy, and kind of trying to shirk responsibility, either consciously.

Yeah. So do you think there's a level of perceived obligation that they maybe are misconstruing? That if, if I become stronger, and I become stepped more into who I am, I'm going to now have to be obligated or exhausted more by things that I have to take on in order to get there?

That's, I think that's a, that's a very insightful question. I think you can kind of play in Because I think that, well, I know that we all have a duty to others. We have a duty to make our lives about more than ourselves. And with increased capacity comes increased duty. But I think it's about how we choose to understand that duty, to explore it and to apply it to where we don't have to do it in an exhaustive sense where we feel like we're getting run ragged. Is that we can still, we can do it without feeling, you know, run down or overly burdened by it. But it's just important to understand that everything we do in some way, shape, or form is going to eventually impact everybody else. So, whether we can demonstrate power over a greater group or not, everything we do is going to impact everybody in some way because we can't hide who we are and the actions that we portray.

Yeah.

I think that's one thing that people don't understand, that when we say stay home, and I don't know, you know, do something that we really shouldn't be doing instead of going to our kids' recital or instead of working out, instead of getting that work done, is that that's going to impact who we are as a person. That's going to impact how we interact with the world, and that's going to impact everybody else in some way, shape, or form at some time. Yeah. And I think a lot of people don't want to believe that, but it's, it's just how it works.

I also see it as multiple steps beyond that, that like if someone's saying, well, I have to go to this recital but they don't know who else might be at that recital that might also be a networking contact for a business deal.

Yeah, right.

Or who's gonna become a new friend, or who's gonna have, right, a like-minded individual in a like-minded space. And putting themselves out there is not just about showing up for your kid, but also about— that means you're surrounding yourself by other parents who are doing the same thing, that are hopefully playing at the same level, at a bare minimum competency, of the people you'd hopefully want to be around in the first place. And if it's not, then maybe you got to decide where you're sending your kids to school and maybe figure that out also. Right. But I see that as not the— and I just came back from this integrative medicine conference, NeuroEmotional Technique, which is incredible mind-body protocol. And their headquarters out of, out of Encinitas, San Diego, you know, area, Vista area. And one of the things that we find often is when we work on a theme, how that has downstream effects on areas you didn't even consider in positive ways. Right. And all these manifestations, which sounds hippie-dippy, but how you're dropping resistance in one area will allow certain other positive benefits to come in an area you didn't even think because we're so myopic in our view.

That's— it looks— that's exactly what I was thinking as you were, as you were saying that is we never do just one thing and that's it. Everything we do has repercussions in every single area and this stuff all plays together and it's just And when we're doing things, especially on a conscious level, how that can open us up subconsciously in so many ways. Because we, we like to believe that we're 95% conscious and 5% subconscious, when, as you know, it's the exact opposite.

Oh yeah, yeah.

I can't tell you how many times I've been out climbing, you know, alone in the mountains, then all of a sudden something will come up from when I was 6 years old, and I'm like, ah, I'm like, now I get it. I'm like And I haven't thought about it consciously in 20 years.

Yeah.

You know, it's just everything we do ties in together in some way. So I think you said it wonderfully. Nothing in life is myopic as much as we want it to be. Our viewpoint, our conscious viewpoint could be myopic, but all this stuff relates together. Yeah. So when you open one thing, there's no telling what it's gonna lead to.

And it's funny cuz I'm sitting here cracking up because I have a life-changing decision to make for this Saturday night. It's probably, I'm being very playful and tongue in cheek, I think it's very do or die. And my do or die life-changing decision is, am I going to be seeing Blues Traveler perform Saturday night or OAR, Other Revolution, perform Saturday night? And right, it's, it's an awful decision that I have to make. And I'm exaggerating this because, you know, we all have that FOMO of, you know, and, and they're both, you know, fantastic, fantastic bands if, you know, you're into that genre. And it's kind of like, shit, I'm gonna miss out one way or the other. And I had to ask myself different questions about how do you get there? Is that which one am I more likely to have come down here again in the future? I already know that answer. Which one that when I— which one have I listened to more and more over the years or appreciated more that I've seen live in concert over the years? But also like, which one would I get more on a plane for to see? Yeah, right. And if one's playing in my backyard versus the other one, which is 30 minutes away versus 20 minutes away, Right. So I had to ask different questions to solve it. And then it helped me have clarity on this life-changing, you know, altering thing. But, but we, but we make— but what my point is for people listening is that we can make everything into a first world problem. We can make everything into a life-threatening problem of making the wrong decision or the right decision, whether it's just about enjoying musical night out, and music is important to me, for, or relationships or dating or business decisions, we can catastrophize things.

Oh, yeah.

That are, that are sometimes just easily solved by asking different questions. So I'm wondering, like, you know, as you went through this journey, did you, did you notice yourself asking yourself different questions? In other words, instead of saying, like, I'm asking this the same way and hoping for a different result, it's not just I have to look at things differently, but I have to start talking to myself or start asking things differently of myself and other people.

Right. No, 100%. There's no question. Because it's, you know, it's that adage, if you always do what you've always done, you always get what you've always got. Yeah. And then, you know, kind of my subconscious approach was, I'll just keep doing the same thing. I'll just do it harder. I'll just do it more or faster or bigger or stronger. You know, that kind of thing.

We're gonna, we're gonna Goggins it, right?

Exactly. I'm like, so if running into that wall at 100 miles an hour didn't work, I'll run into it at 110.

Right.

It doesn't work. That'll work. Yeah. It's, uh, no, so, you know, to your point, what I found that helped me the most, and I think that you probably utilize this in your critical decision that you're making, is really, it's not a matter of doing more. It's a matter of doing less or doing something differently to create a little bit more space, to create some stillness. And in my mind for so long, there was no space, there was no room. It was just everything was just dialed up to 10. For decades about everything. Like, everything was a, uh, a life-threatening or a life-affirming, you know, decision in some way. Because if I got this wrong, then I was a terrible person who, who didn't deserve to be loved. And when you're talking about that over, do I make a cheese sandwich or a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, it's, it's, uh, yeah, after 40 years. Sure.

Yeah, yeah.

But it's, it's, that's what, what I found to help me the most was being able to sit back, create some space, and kind of look at things in a different way and understand, you know, what's a real problem, what's, what's really not a real problem, you know, in, in that sense. And, uh, that, it just enabled me to feel a little bit lighter and, and to not attach such a magnitude to every single decision.

Yeah, I'm reflecting on a shift in my life over the years, and even maybe before I became a therapist, but when people be like, oh, can I ask your help on 'Can I ask your insight on something?' Where I've now said, 'It depends on what it is. Give me the bullet points and I will tell you in what way I can help you or where I need to, or where I can refer you out to a better expert,' as opposed to trying to take something on because I didn't want to disappoint, uh, someone, or I didn't want them to get angry at me for saying no, right? And now I, I created a new, a new red carpet of, of, of boundary or, or paradigm in order which to engage with that. And it served me tremendously. And it's always been like calling out the answer that they don't want. Like, hey, I may be the worst person for you, and I may suck at giving you this guidance, so maybe you wouldn't want it from me, but let me hear what it is first before I, before I say yes. So I think that we all have those opportunities in every aspect of, of doing this. And because that's the motivation, right? The motivation was I don't want to hurt somebody. I don't want them to not like me. I don't want them to think I'm an asshole. But I'm also maybe not qualified for that. And was I overstepping in certain things? And I'm sure people listening can, can relate to that. Um, but also knowing, which I think is very apropos for what you're doing, is what do you have the balls to step into? What do you have the balls to take on, right? Even when you think you don't.

Yeah, exactly. The only thing I would add to that is It's, you know, what do you have the balls to step into? And then what do you have the balls to risk, you know, to step into that? And then what price are you willing to pay? Because there's one part of stepping into it. Then there's a part, you know, we talked about for a second before we got started of seeing things through and the cost of everything. And, you know, there's a difference between showing up for one day and showing up for 100 days and 1,000 days and just keep, you know, and it's just, So, that's been a big thing in my life is what I found is, you know, the bigger you try to go, the more it's going to cost. And it's what are you willing, you know, what are you really willing to sacrifice? Are you willing to not go on vacation, you know, this month or this year or whatever? Are you willing to miss X, Y, and Z? Are you willing to sell?

Right. Are you willing to not have a drink this month?

Exactly.

Right. As it's November, right? And or whatever, or the other thing that men are supposed to be sacrificing this month, right? God bless social media and prostate. Checks. Um, but yeah, I think like that's the sacrifice that, that people think in their relationship to their story around their identity about that thing is a big part of it. So it's kind of— did you start shifting your— you know, you have this background, military and then business school and all these things. Did you have to shift? Well, I guess maybe the answer would be how did you shift your identify— identification with yourself? About who you are, and the things that you've already achieved and accomplished, maybe academically, professionally, socially, into becoming this person or evolving and will continue to evolve, right? What were those— some of those shifts that you had to make about how you talked even about yourself to yourself?

Yeah, I think initially growing up, I was kind of that traditional I think probably a traditional masculine sense of, you know, this is who I am and this is what I do. And I'm tough, you know, I'm hard. You can, you know, leave me out somewhere and I'll figure it out. And I'm very, you know, self-sustained, you know, in a sense. And I don't need a lot of people. I don't need a lot of help and all that kind of stuff. And what I found was, as I got older, again, that worked in certain capacities, but it didn't work in a lot of capacities. And where I am now in my life is I'm less concerned about identifying myself in a certain way.

Mm-hmm.

And, and having that ego attached to it is it, and, and it's not to sound cliché, but it's like, you know, the more you learn, the more you realize, the less you know.

Yeah.

And that's where I am now. I'm just kind of like, oh, I'm just, I'm just some guy that's trying to figure it out. I figured it out a little bit. I've got a lot more questions than I have answers. But the thing I do know about myself is that I work to motivate myself based on my values and my priorities and not my feelings and not my emotions. I understand that they're there. I try to understand, you know, what they're saying and maybe why I'm experiencing them. But it's, I don't let them, I try not to let them drive me. But I do know that once I've identified something, You don't want to be the thing standing in front of me, right? Because I'm gonna, I'm gonna come at you and, you know, one of us is going to win here and it's, it's, it's going to be me. And I don't mean that in an egotistical sense. I just mean that I'm willing to, to, to pay the price in order to try to achieve what I'm trying to achieve. But I also understand that if I don't achieve the primary objective or the initial objective I set out to, that there may be other benefits or other, other successes that come along that way, which are just as important or maybe even more important that I can take something from.

Yeah.

So I take something from every single thing that I'm doing, whether it's an initial perceived success or failure. Hmm.

Has there been people that along this journey that were naysayers that were, as we would call it in neuro-emotional technique world where you were sensitive to their consciously or unconsciously not buying into this new journey for you?

From a, from a personal standpoint, you know, like a familial standpoint and friends and stuff like that, there really weren't. And the reason being is I didn't share things with people saying, look, this is where I am. This is where I want to go. What do you think? Because honestly, as much as I love those people, their thoughts don't mean anything to me, or their feelings on what I want to do with my life, they don't mean anything to me. What I feel is that I'm doing the right things for the right reasons, and, and if you like it, great. If you don't like it, I honestly don't care. But, um, from a, say, a professional or from a performance standpoint, the—

I don't—

I think very few people thought that we could accomplish as an organization what we did in the first 12 months you know, all the records and all that kind of stuff. But the first— or the, the coaching group that I hired to help train me for all this stuff when I had no experience whatsoever, after a couple months of working together, uh, the head of the group sent me an email. And this is all in the book. He sent me an email and he said, you know, based on, on your, your performance, and that you're always getting like— you, you'll train well for a couple weeks, then you'll get hurt for a couple weeks, and you'll train well, you'll get hurt. He said, you know, we don't think that you're going to be ready to accomplish what you're going to try to accomplish. And we think you need to change your objectives to something smaller. He said, you know, to give him credit, he said, look, you may prove us wrong, but our professional opinion is you're not going to be ready and you should just stop this. And I just, I said, thank you. I appreciate you being professional and tell me your honest thoughts, but I'm going to keep pushing forward. So you want to talk about just a kick in the teeth.

Right.

Because when you put everything you have into something and then the people that you're paying to help you come to you and say, we don't think you can do it, it was a challenge to get through that, you know. But, uh, we ended up proving them wrong, and it's just, you know, kind of part of it.

Did you end up working with different people after that, or you kept them on and kept pushing through?

I stayed on with that same group for another couple months, but I just didn't work with the, the head of the group any longer. I worked just with a specific person And then, uh, this person I ended up parting ways, uh, a couple months later, and I just went on my own and just finished all the training and everything on my own. And, uh, you know, it worked out.

So let's talk about consistency, because you and I were talking previous, you know, before the, before the conversation got really started, is, is knowing when to be hard, knowing when to be fluid was one of the things you said, but Underneath it all, for anything, whether it's someone who's going— wants to go to graduate school or college or go to work every day or be a good parent, be a good friend, you have to be consistent. And, and it's tough, right? I'm not trying to give anybody an out and go pass go and collect $500 on this, but consistency seems to be the reverse-engineered hack to most of it. So what are— what were some of just the insights that you've had on this journey? Um, where have you struggled in, in that regards? Because, you know, people look— I get to meet people when they're already far progressed on their journey. So, you know, part of you telling, you know, the book and people following you, and is people seeing you at least trying to, you know, understand where you were there, but they still see you now? Right? Um, but I'm curious, what, what has been some of those challenges personally for you with, with consistency? Is it something that you're just predisposed to as a personality, that you're just more like— right, because some people are, right? Um, and, and then going back into that, that time to be, you know, figuring out when it's the time to be, time to be a rock, and when is the time to be water paradigm.

It's— I think it depends on how, on how you look at consistency or the type of consistency that you're talking about. I think in a, I think in a general sense, consistency is probably the number one factor that I've seen that has contributed to my success. On a fit, from a physical standpoint is I started training and training for Project 7 for Soldiers on August 1st, 2018. You know, since that time, that's been 6 years, it's been over 6 years now, is I've never missed one work— I've never skipped one workout. So I mean, you're talking thousands and thousands of hours where I've trained alone every single day. Like, I've just— I haven't, I haven't woken up and said, I don't feel like doing it, so I'm not doing it today. It, it hasn't happened, and it just won't happen. Just, it's that it just, it won't happen. But from a different standpoint of consistency about how I treat myself, how I talk to myself, how I, you know, look at myself, examine myself, is there have been, you know, a lot of times of inconsistency where sometimes I'll show myself the love that I need to show myself and the compassion and the understanding. And then there are other times when I've been unnecessarily be, you know, hard on myself or even cruel to myself, uh, you know, going back to those old, those old ways of thinking. So it, it, that's the reason I'm saying this, is that it's important to understand we can be consistent in certain regards and inconsistent in others. It's not just a, a, uh, you know, uh, binary— either you are, you, or you're not. So it's the— I think, but as I led into saying, is consistency is by far the, the number one thing that I've seen that's contributed to my success, you know. But the key is, when we, when we find ourselves not being consistent, is not to just beat it, to drive ourselves down to the ground, because it's like you can't beat yourself into feeling better, right? You've probably seen it. There's an old joke of there's a, you know, like a sign in a factory that says, you know, like, the beatings will continue until morale improves. Yeah, like, that was— that's what I did myself for so long. It's like, you can't do that, man. It's just, you find yourself not, not showing that level of consistency in whatever regard, is you got to give yourself some love. Yeah, you got to understand, and that's the key to it.

It's such a common theme in my couples counseling clients of having— my usual intake call is number one, I want to talk to both partners who are coming. Number two is would you be coming to do this even if your partner didn't make the call, right? Based on— right, or right, or if your other partner didn't show up, would you still be investing in your own self-care? Or, or are you realizing that you're just coming to get them off your back, or just to get the other person to change, and you're hoping that I'm going to convince them to change? Because if it's any of those things, then I'm happy to refer you to anybody else, but that's not the way I operate, and I want you to have that aha moment before you walk in the door that this is all about accountability for you, even if your partner does nothing different. Yeah. And, and I see that the consistency of growth shifts radically when they do that, but also how quickly we forget a handful of sessions in. And then when I bring that topic back up, I'm like, yeah, so I don't care if you think your spouse is being a total a-hole right now. Let's put it back. What do What are you doing differently? How do you want to do better self-care? How do you want to talk nicer to them? How do you want to be— even if this relationship ends, that you ended from a place of how you started, from love versus fighting? Yeah, right. So that's a big shift for a lot of people. Now, I'm not saying it's the end-all be-all, but I think that, like, if you can retain some level of sanity and well-being, like, you don't have— if you think someone's treating you like an a-hole, you don't have to become an a-hole. To give it to them, right? You don't have to give up your own well-being.

Yeah, look, I think you said that really well, and I think that ties back into what we were talking about, you know, before the call of this. We're in a— we're in an age of victimization now where people are making careers and building businesses out of being victims. And if you think— again, if you think your life's going to change materially because someone else changes, you're like, my life will get better when so-and-so does whatever I need them to do. It's just, it's the wrong way of looking at it. And obviously, we can all be victimized in different ways. The times that just really stand out in my mind is when I see someone that is being victimized, you could say, and they don't respond in that way. But they turn around, they respond in a different manner where they assume this internal power. And they turn around and they don't just, you know, lash out and react. But they choose to act proactively in various capacities. And there's just, there's so much strength in those moments and you can learn so much from those moments. If you, for a great example is I'm a huge fan of Viktor Frankl.

Yeah.

You know, Man's Search for Meaning.

Just mentioned it yesterday in session. Yep. Yeah.

It's, I mean, I've, I've got, look, I've got goosebumps, you know, talking about it is I take Man's Search for Meaning on every single expedition I go on. Is, I mean, I've got tape holding the thing together. Everything's highlighted. Like I love it. But it's just about being worthy of your suffering. It's about choosing your response. And if you're talking about someone in a Holocaust camp, if they can choose their response, then I'm sure as hell can choose my response if someone cuts in front of me at Ralph's to get a quart of milk. You know, it's like—

Especially at Ralph's.

Yeah. Yeah, right? But it's that level of that we have the ability to choose our response. In every situation.

Yeah.

You know, it's just what he talks about is, is just not, not being a victim, assume, you know, regaining that control over ourselves and our lives. And then the, the impact we can have on others when we demonstrate that. Because when I see, even when I'm not involved directly in a situation, when I see someone react in that manner where they're taking control back, I'm like, it, it serves as an example to me that I can do that better in my life.

Yeah, there's so many times where we want to be so conscious of this, and then that split second happens. That person cuts you off. I was, like I said, I was in LA and San Diego a week and change ago, and driving from my friends in the valley to the city, that 58-minute drive for 8 miles, and you know, people not going from Mulholland Drive into Coldwater Canyon and just like, like, why, why are you going Oh, it's so slow. And why aren't you taking other people into consideration? That person cutting you off. And, you know, and then coming into, uh, people in LA are just so selfish, right? No, they're not. This is the way the world works, right? It's not an LA thing, it's a human thing. And, you know, but we make it— we come up with stories so fast, and then those stories become our worldviews, and they either allow us to connect with people or they disconnect us from people. And I think, right, as you and I were talking of just like, how many stories are we are we now creating, where we're, we're a week post-election and how people are, you know, 4 years ago is the other way before it could— for it in 4 years from now can go another way, the other way again, right? How everybody is just, I need to be this or I need to be that, I need to be only around people who think this way. And I, I think the last 8 years of this has been interesting to see people who are starting to no longer play that game of the binary and, and how powerful, how powerful that is, and how I'm trying to do that and try to be that, and how I'm hearing things differently, how I'm seeing things different.

Yeah.

And right, especially as a therapist, but even just as a, as a human being. And, and just like you said a little bit ago, it's, can you come up with more questions than answers?

Yeah, it's, it's— I think that's a, that's a fantastic point, and I've thought about that a lot lately. Where I've caught myself, and I know I'm not unique in this, but I've caught myself. Let's, let's say, you know, your example, somebody cut you off in traffic, is the only reason they cut you off is because that person's an a-hole. That's the only reason, right? Right. I'm like, maybe, maybe that person just got, you know, just got word that somebody they care about's in the hospital. Maybe they just got something like— there could literally be a million reasons, or maybe they just didn't see me. Maybe there was a squirrel around in front of the road, whatever. There can be a million reasons why they did whatever that they did, but our brains are these predictive machines where we want to eliminate as many variables as possible. So they cut me off, half a second later, that person's a worthless a-hole that should lose their license, right? And that's what I see in a lot of facets of my life where for so long I just filled in all these unknowns then I came down, well, here's the story, here's the answer, here's the story, here's the answer. And now, what I do is I sit back and say, listen, you don't know what's going on. You don't know all these variables. So, it could be all these things. So, just sit back and open your mind up to these different possibilities. And that's helped me relate to people a lot better and understand situations in different ways a lot better. Where before, I'm like, no, this is it. Now, I'm like, well, maybe it's— It's these other things. And I'm able to see things in a different light and learn things in a different way and take more from any given situation I was previously able to.

Yeah. And I'll take and even add to that of, let's say they were cutting you off and it was them being an a-hole. The self-reflection question that I try to put on myself is, if this bothers me in this specific way, in what way Macro to micro or micro to macro, am I acting this way to other people and I don't realize it?

Yeah.

Because you don't see it unless it's in your own, right? Psych.

Yeah. Well, I love that. And also what I think about this may be simple, but it just kind of cracks me up is that whether it's, you know, some guy cutting me off in traffic is whatever I experience. I don't care what it is. Anything I experience has been experienced millions or billions of times by millions and billions of people. Like, there's some guy that was, that was, you know, you know, driving a cart in Rome that someone cut him off. You know, he's like, that son of a bitch cut me off. You know, I'm just trying to take my milk to market. My goat fell over. It's like, there's nothing special about any of this stuff.

That's so true.

Why am I getting so worked up about it? You know? It cracks me up when I think about what I'd say. I'm like, you know, some guy in Greece, you know, someone stole his sandals outside of his front door.

I'm like, I can't go running this morning, someone stole my sandals.

Exactly. It's like, right, it's not unique. And I think it talks to— we were talking about earlier about dissolving of the ego and understanding in a relative sense and having— gaining greater perspective about about where all this stuff is, you know.

You just gave me this, this image in my mind of, of the Greek god Nike waking— like, all the other gods playing a prank on him and stealing his running sandals.

Yeah, right.

And he's like, ah, you guys, now I can't go running, you know. Zeus, you know, bastard Zeus, right? I think that's like where the humor aspect of, of all this comes in. And I made this commitment years ago. I was in my first, um, when I was— when I first started, I was in a group practice And I remember one of my— the office manager coming to me. She's like, I don't, I don't get it. We constantly are hearing cracking up coming from your office. Cause she was right across, her seat was right across from my office. And I like, I always see people coming out of every other office crying like hysterically. Like, are you doing therapy in there? Are you just like, whatever? And I'm like, but if you can solve the same problem with humor than with tears, it's not— I'm not saying that we're not crying. I'm not saying that we're not getting emotional. We're not getting deep. But if we can solve it in a lighthearted way, why not, right? Right. If it's going to be more enjoyable to come back to a therapy session knowing that you can crack up your way to solving a problem versus the typical, I need the box of tissues in 3 different places strategically, why not? So, so I think changing that whole paradigm, and that then I really do appreciate what you said, like in history this has been, you know, bringing these camels to buy to buy my future daughter-in-law, and I lost one camel on the way, and therefore, now, I only have 612 camels. Yeah.

Yeah.

Someone stole your camel in the middle of the night.

It's just we want to believe when we're in the midst of the darkness, whatever that darkness is. And look, sometimes, it is very real dark things. So, I'm not making light of anybody's pain, but there's nothing unique about our pain or suffering. But when we're in it, we want to believe there is something unique and special about it. And look, I get it hurts. I'm in pain too. I've been in pain. I'm going to be in more pain. But there's nothing unique about it. And we understand and appreciate that while it does hurt and it can be very real, it's not unique. And that it shouldn't, it shouldn't force us to disconnect from everyone else, but rather allow us to reconnect with everybody else to say, hey, everybody's going through all this stuff. That just— it helps us gain a better perspective overall of it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I want to— I'm gonna come— before we go into just talking about, you know, you sharing all the different places, the things that people can connect with, and the charities and the nonprofit, and then there was a quote that I'm going to start you off with. I'm not going to say the rest of the quote because I'm going to screw it up, but it's never too late is the quote that you were talking about before. So can you share that quote?

Yes, sir. It's, uh, you know, it's a quote that I like, is that it's never too late to become what you might have been. And obviously that's not my quote. I should know it. It's on the tip of my tongue. I'm blanking on who said it now, but it's the, the journey that I'm on now is I didn't start that until I was 37 years old. And if, when I was, you know, literally a week before I started this, you know, this journey If you would have asked me, name 100 things that you might be doing in the next 100 years, this stuff would not have been on there. Like, I'm like, it's, it's crazy to think now I'm in my mid-40s, I'm a sponsored endurance athlete with Monster Energy and 5.11 and Oakley and Scarpa and doing all this kind of— like, I had— it was so far off my radar that you could have told me I'd been a Broadway dancer and that would have been Yeah, just as crazy. Exactly. Or that probably would have made more sense to them. Like, oh, I like to dance, so I could do that.

Yeah.

But, um, it's, you know, and as you and I talked about it, is, you know, when I got started, I was 240 pounds. The thought of me running 200 meters was long distance. Like, running a mile? You're crazy. That, that just— I'm past that. That's not going to happen. But it's just, it's, uh, it's what we talked about earlier, just creating this space in your life and allowing yourself to become these different things and not to say, I'm this one thing who does one thing and I go one place. You know, it's just to create that openness and that fluidity in your life and not to judge yourself and not to say, hey, maybe I want to try this, maybe I want to try that. And then also not to get too far ahead of yourself.

Yeah.

Because the thought of starting from zero to setting, you know, say just in my case, multiple world records in just a couple of years, It's a very daunting thing and you really can't look at it in that way. It ties back to that consistency you and I talked about is you kind of, you make the best plan you can, then you just show up just day after day after day and it just slowly starts—

Compounding interest. Compounding interest. I'm such a big philosophical believer of that in personal growth and development, right? It's the one podcast episode. The first time you'll write. It's that one YouTube video, it's that one book, it's that one. And forget if you can't read a book and you don't have the bandwidth for that, then great, then go back to— give me just Google on YouTube, whatever. Sorry, that was a little redundant there, right? Just go on YouTube and say, what is the summary of this book? Yeah, someone wrote— someone already made a video on it, and they can do it in 2 or 3, and you find the one that's 2 minutes long while you're taking your poop. Like, we don't have an excuse anymore at some level. So I try to like help my clients whittle it down to the, to the easiest common denominator. I don't want to call it the lowest common denominator, like the easiest the least resistance common denominator. And, and I love what you're saying because so much of it is from like the, you know, the Buddhist Noble Truths of there is suffering in the world.

Yeah, first Noble Truth.

Yeah, and you can't run away from it. So how do you choose to get out a surfboard and throw it on the wave? And you're going to be knocked off the wave and get back on. And sometimes it's going to be a glorious, glorious Beach Boys-style song written, catch a wave, and you're sitting on the top of the world.

Yeah. And sometimes your leg's in the shark's mouth.

And sometimes, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, you just quickly to close the point is, you know, I think what I think about this is, is I'm a very visual person. So I imagine, you know, climbing a mountain is you don't climb a mountain 1,000 feet at a time. And it's, I'm telling you, this is not to say, this is not to sound cliché, but it's literally one step, one step, one step. And I can't tell you how many times I've been in a position where I'm like, I can't go. I don't think I can go another 100 meters. And I'll find, you know, a piece of snow or a rock or, you know, whatever it is that's 10 feet in front of me. And I'm like, just make it, make it to that 10 feet, then I'll figure it out. Then I'll decide if I'm going to quit or if I'm going to crap my pants or if I'm going to pass out or whatever it is, or throw up. I'll make the decision. I'll make that decision when I get to that point. Yeah, you get there and I'm like, okay, there's 5 more feet. I might get to that point, then I'll make another decision. And it can be very tiring, but that's how you climb a lot of these things. And that's how we get through a lot of things in life sometimes, is to your point, is sometimes you can sprint for a mile and it's just easy peasy. Other times it's every step is a grind, but it's just you have to show up for yourself. You— we have to give ourselves the opportunity to perform. Like, that's the greatest— one of the greatest sins that we can commit is to waste our potential and not give ourselves the opportunity to perform.

I'm gonna add on to that. It's— I would add to this sin is that is believing that you don't have potential. Yeah.

Or I'm sorry, not to— not to—

yeah, no, go knock it up.

Is not to believe that we're worth the effort.. And then, 'cause a lot of times when I started out this stuff was I did a lot of things in my life and I tried to achieve a lot of things to prove that I was worthy of fill in the blank. And primarily it was worthy of being loved. And then once I made that shift of I'm doing these things because I am worthy of love and I'm showing myself that I'm worthy of it. And I'm like, why? It's like, why are the— why the hell am I out here in the middle of this desert? This is 100 degrees and it sucks. And I'm saying, well, you're out here because I'm trying to show you that you're worth the effort. And so it's demonstrating love rather than trying to receive and earn love.

Yeah.

And I think if people looked at it in that capacity, it would really help as well.

Yeah. And I, and I, and I was thinking about this when I was in LA. When, when I'm with my— when I stay with my, my friends there, every time I'm out there on Sunday morning, we'll do a hike somewhere in the LA area. And I live in South Florida, and nature here is very different, right? We got the ocean, we got the Everglades, and we got, you know, just strip plazas, kind of like, you know, kind of like anywhere in LA also. But the one thing I love about being there, even if it's like what people would seem as these like shallow things, is that people just go to nature, right? They just go for a walk, even if it's, you know, they're doing selfies or they're— it's Hot Girl Walk or whatever it but they're moving and they're doing it anyway. And I really reflected on like how we like judge certain cultures that we don't live in, or certain societies that we don't— oh, look at them, they're just like, you know, it's the cool thing to do. Yeah, but they're doing it, right? The whole gym culture, the whole— right? And you know, well, they're taking selfies at the gym and they're making all the— okay, yeah, but they're at the gym.

Yeah, yeah. No, look, I totally agree with you. You know, another one One of the greatest things that I love in life is just to see people trying, just to see someone making effort. It means so much to me. You know, you mentioned, you mentioned a gym. I was, I was in a gym the other day, or in my gym the other day, and there was a, there was a person there working out, and you, you could just, you know, see by what they were doing, what they look like, that they're very overweight. It's like, this is not what they do.. And I, and I overheard two guys talking and they, you know, made a wisecrack about this person. And the first thing I thought was, this person's in here trying. And I'm like, that's what matters. I don't give a shit, you know, what you're doing or whatever. Excuse my language.

Yeah, it's all good.

But it's, it's, uh, it's just that they're in there trying. And that meant the world to me cuz you could see that they were very self-conscious. They were uncomfortable. They didn't know exactly what to do, but they were in there giving it an honest effort.. And it just, it meant the world to me, you know, to, to see that.

Yeah. Yeah. And I know that like when, when we're in these environments, I know like when I would do every couple years I'll do a half marathon and I did a Spartan race. I had Joe DeSena, uh, a long time ago. I'm like, I can't not sign up if Joe's gonna be on my freaking podcast. But I didn't say the same about becoming a, a real estate mogul if when I had Ryan Serhant. So maybe I'm, I'm being a little bit of a hypocrite. So, um, but you know, I see like where people are just looking for that attaboy or attagirl, right? They're just looking for someone like you or I, or like, hey, like, I remember telling client today, like, it's only my second session with this client, and I'm like, I don't know what it is, like, every minute I'm spending with you— and literally second session was this morning— like, I'm really liking you more and more. And I know that's not something that you would ever expect a therapist to say, but I think that, one, why not? Two, everybody wants just to hear that, like, at the gym, right, walking by, like, it's like I'm not in perfect shape, but if I see someone out there, I'm like, hey man, high five. Like, you know, good on you for being here too. I think we, we all need a little bit more of that, and everybody's just so like, uh, you know, either negative like you say those people were, or they're afraid of— can, you know, that's not what an opportunity to connect with people, right? And then cheer them on, which we all need. So, uh, let's just take the last minute or two to just, you know, just go through some of the things in which people can connect with you through. And right, we have the book which is coming out in January. Again, you said that the preorder for the ebook is already available, Only the Strong Surrender. But just tell us a little bit about the nonprofit and where people can, can, can follow you.

Yeah, first is I appreciate that, but I apologize, is my team didn't get the updated title to you. Oh, so the, the, that the new title is Strength in Surrender.

Strength in Surrender.

That's totally on us. I apologize for that.

No worries. All right, y'all. So make sure you hear that Strength Strength and Surrender.

Yeah, Strength— this makes it a lot easier. So Strength and Surrender is that, um, the easiest way to, you know, to connect is just through, uh, obviously Instagram is just Dawson's Peak, P-E-A-K. And then that's, uh, then the website is dawsonspeak.com. That's my personal site. It links to our foundation site, which is Dawson's Peak Foundation, uh, .org. And, uh, one thing we didn't get into is that through the charity, through Dawson's Peak Foundation our current project, which is 7 for Soldiers, where all the records have been set with everything. You know, even more importantly is who we're working with on this, and that's Hope for the Warriors and Gary Sinise Foundation. These are two of the highest-rated veteran charities in the country. You know, Gary Sinise, everyone knows as Lieutenant Dan.

Lieutenant Dan, yeah.

Exactly. Gary's a very good friend. He's just an incredible guy, but both groups are incredible organizations. Where they're receiving 100% of the net proceeds that we raise. So from this entire thing, I've never made a dime off of it. The organization hasn't made a dime off of it. You know, the easiest way to get involved with that is you can donate through the website or just to make it even easier, just text Dawson, D-A-W-S-O-N, to 53555. And like I said, they'll receive 100% of the net proceeds from that. Awesome.

Love it. And is there any programs as far as like working with you directly I know you're doing some speaking, but I know, are you also doing a little bit of coaching as well?

Yeah, no, I appreciate you asking that. So, as I say, I do advising. I don't think I've earned the right to call myself a coach yet. I look at coach like, that's a title. That's like Buddha, you know, in my world. But it's, you know, it's, I am working with people one-on-one. So, that information is available on the website about how to get in touch with me and kind of what we can work through and how we can work through it. Then also, Anyone interested in a speaking engagement, I'm talking all the time now. So all that's on the website as well. So I appreciate you mentioning that.

Oh, please. Yeah, listen, it's all this stuff is— I'm a big fan of simplicity on the far side of complexity and the fact that most people don't know what awesome stuff exists out there. And it's so incredible to see just one, just a journey, right? A journey of self-growth and working through and continuing to work through. And like you said before, there's always going to be something. And I see it as peeling away layers of the onion, you know, and you're going to get to this beautiful level. And then that does create new challenges. And that's what we want to lean into versus running away from. But also just being, you know, being vulnerable enough to say, yeah, like, this is, this is, this is the imperfection of what I went through. And here's who I am. And, and, you know, people are connecting to that. And I was very excited that we, we got to spend time together. So I want to just give everybody a challenge that, like always, I'm just going to make a straight-up assumption that this is an episode that someone should be sharing. When you're listening to this, you probably know someone, at least one person who needs to hear this. So please do us a favor and share that out to someone in your community. And please do us a favor and follow Dawson on the social media. Again, it's Dawson's Peek, P-E-A-K, or Dawson Speak. Right?

If you want to go either way on the, on the thing, whatever makes it easier. I've heard people say it both ways, right? Dawson's Peak, obviously, you know, take off on the name. And a buddy of mine came up with it. I'm like, we got it.

There you go. It's perfect. It's perfect. Then it'll be in the show notes as well. And then obviously, you know, if in your heart, buy, buy the book for someone. Holiday season's coming up, so pre-order the book, buy the book. Not for your bookshelf, give it as a gift. That's always, you know, always a beautiful thing.

Use it as a doorstop if you want. But no, that's I can guarantee there's something in there that'll work for you. Yeah, whether you don't like it, it's something— something will motivate you in there.

Yeah, and if you don't like it, then you can use it as a doorstop. But I'm gonna hold to you, I'm gonna hold to what you're saying. I'm sure there is more than one thing of value to, to everybody out there. And so really, I want to thank you again for, for sharing time, and very much looking forward to continuing to hear all these successes. And, and again, people like reach out, like, you know, the cool thing about guests like this is like they're, we're accept— they're accessible. So, you know, this is part of why you're here is that you want to make contact with more people and, um, and then bring people along, you know, for this, for this beautiful ride. So again, thank you so much for, for sharing that with us.

No, thank you. As I get the opportunity, you know, to do a lot of these, but, but I thoroughly enjoyed this. It just, you know, your, your approach to it, the way you kind of look at things and, and, uh, the way you're able to communicate those is, has been, uh enlightening to me.

So I appreciate you. That really, that means the world. All right, y'all, we'll see you in the next episode.

Thanks for listening to the You Winning Life podcast. If you are ready to minimize your personal and professional struggles and maximize your potential, we would love it if you subscribed so you don't miss an episode. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Jason Wasser LMFT 🎗️.