Ep. 195: The Lost Art of Empathy with Jill Robin Payne

This is the You Winning Life podcast, your number one source for mastering a positive existence. Each episode, we'll be interviewing exceptional people, giving you empowering insights and guiding you to extraordinary outcomes. Learn from specialists in the worlds of integrative and natural wellness, spirituality, psychology, and entrepreneurship so you too can be winning life. Now here's your host, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified neuro-emotional technique practitioner, trainer and certified entrepreneur coach Jason Wasser.

All right, everybody, welcome back to another episode of the You Winning Life podcast. It's been a while, and as you may not know, I am being excessively more selective as we're getting closer and closer to episode 200. You would think I just want to bang out and get to episode 200 and then figure out from there, but I'm finding that as we've evolved, as we've had some amazing guests, that I now have the opportunity to say no more often, which doesn't always sound nice, but it's nice for you, the listener, and nice for me to have guests that I really want to have. And as you heard in the intro today, we're gonna be hanging out with Jill, and, uh, Jill's a therapist and, and, uh, you know, author, and we're gonna get into some really, really good stuff. And first of all, Jill, thanks so much for, for hanging out with us today.

Oh, Jason, you made me feel so good. I feel really special. I'm gonna tell my husband.

If someone has good book, then I'm sure we're doing okay. I know you were telling me a little bit about a cool AI story about in relationship to your husband before. And I think it's a cute story if you're comfortable sharing about what you said about bringing AI into the room.

Oh, notice I put my hand on my mouth. Well, so what happened is my computer got smashed. Even when I brought it in, Jason Wasser, they go, Did you smash your computer? I said, no, no, no, no, no.

It just—

I'm, I'm accident prone. So anyway, they have Microsoft 11, Jason. They have something called Copilot. If you get Microsoft and you are required to get it, you can't opt out. It's automatic. Now, I love him. I call him him. He's sexy. And on my phone, let me tell you, on my phone, he's even sexier. And then on my computer, it's an English guy. And so, I even told the English guy, of course, you know, it's not a person, it's a thing. I told him, I said, "You know, I really like you better on my phone." He said, "Well, I'm really sorry about that." You know, they feign empathy. So anyway, so I was really into him and I said, "I need my husband to hear this." So, I'm in my pajamas in bed with my husband. I said, "Byron, you've got to hear this. I've got this new copilot and I really want to call him George. He's very sexy. And just listen to him." He sounds like a therapist. And so I start talking to Copilot in bed and my husband goes, Jill, don't tell him personal stuff. I was just sort of testing him out. And because he's so real, it's very real. Just like I was telling you that that study about, what was it, 2,000 Gen Zs were interviewed and 80% said they would prefer AI, if it were legal, to get with them and get married.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is, which is such an interesting topic in today's day and age, right? I know ChatGPT this week just upgraded their, their level of, of application, and there's so many different ones. And I think I saw something that said similar, a similar study. I can't track the study down because I just heard about it, but it said that the average high school, middle school kid now is working with a handful of different AI, where us as adults at a certain age are only specifically staying with one platform. So yet again, when we're talking about early adopters of tech and newness, why being young actually has an advantage to curiosity and creativity versus how we get stuck in doing things. We're even doing that with our AI platform of choice. But let's start off with— you're a therapist, I'm a therapist. What was it that made you say, this is what I want to do? A divorce. Congrats.

Many, many years ago. So, uh, I'm— my, uh, my dad was a doctor, an ophthalmologist. My brothers are doctors. So there's been— in the middle, I've been in the medical field my whole life. And so when I graduated with a BS, I was a recreational therapist. I taught people how to play. So during that time, recreational therapy waned. I won't tell you my age, but as the Economy would, you know, go up and down. So did recreational therapy. I said, I need to get out of this. So I became an ophthalmic technician. I was a gymnastic coach. I— yes, I was all these different things. And then during my marriage, it did not work out. He was my first, first love. And I also have a brother that has paranoid schizophrenia. And I said, you know, I wanted to go into something science. And I said, Psychology. I love psychology. So I got a master's in that and I have two licensures. So I have one that's an LPC and then one that's an LCDC. I took that for the heck of it. You wanna hear that story too?

Sure.

Okay.

Well, first let's give, I wanna give like, just so people are listening, different states in America.

Yes.

Have, there's some states that have the similar licensures across the country. Uh, marriage and family therapy, social work. It might be different, uh, orders of the, you know, it could be clinical social worker, social work clinical, right? There could be different variations. Of that, right? But usually there is, you know, global psychology, right, have licenses in most states. And then there are some states that have, like, you have an LPC, professional counselor, right?

Right.

Uh, some states have that. Florida doesn't have that. So it depends.

Florida doesn't have an LPC?

No, we don't. So we have social work, mental health, and marriage and family therapy as one board, and psychology as a different board, all under the mental health realm.

Wow. Do you have ACDCs?

We, uh, no, but we do have AC/DC, which is a great band.

I like them too. I've got pajamas that say that.

Nice, nice. One of my favorite shirts is, uh, is ADHD with the AC, with the AC/DC logo.

Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, that is awesome.

Yeah, so yeah, so the, so right, so you have, you have these licensures.

So I just wanted to know, so, so you are, so you have a licensed professional counselor, and then you have the other one, which is Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor, and I took that for the heck of it because in our state, a licensed professional counselor can see people that have addictions. I just took it because I could. And my husband came home from a job. He's a therapist. And he said, oh my gosh, I have to, I have to take these extra courses just to take the LCDC. And I said, oh my gosh, I've already been accepted to do it. I'm just gonna go ahead and take it then. So that's how come I took it. Otherwise I wouldn't have taken it. Yeah.

That's so great.

Yeah.

That's, it's, it's, I have a similar thing where I had my CAP, which is just the state certification, the Certified Addictions Professional, and I was already working, right, in private practice and, you know, stuff like that. It was a very easy course. It was an X amount of dollars to take the test. Yes. It was already verifying what I was already doing. Not that I couldn't do it from our licensure, but it just became a more niche. But funny enough, I've actually not renewed it many years ago because it's It didn't make sense, which is a whole other conversation which we can get into about like certifications and trainings and, you know, what people can do that they don't realize they can do. And the difference between a certification and a license, which we can get into another time. But yeah, but just let that marinate out there, people who are listening. Certifications are self-certifying. Anybody can create one.

Exactly.

Licensure is usually state or nationally.

Exactly. And they need to know that.

Yeah. So, so, okay.

She was everything. Yeah. I appreciate you saying that because we're on all the platforms and when I'm on TikTok or even Facebook, when they talk about things and they're not therapists, right? I really tell people, please listen to the therapist and even some of the therapists on there, you're going to take them out of context because they only have a little blip.

Correct.

And so you really need to investigate that and not with ChatGPT. You need to investigate it. Right.

Yeah.

And it's interesting because I see this as we were talking about South Florida before.

Yes.

And the joke is everybody has their job and they're also a realtor.

That's true.

So over the last many years, it's everybody's doing what they're doing and they're now also a life coach. And I know plenty of wonderful, certified, highly trained, highly credentialed, have ethics and standards. Know when to roll out to a therapist, aren't— right?

Right.

And then there's the people who, you know, unfortunately on Groupon you can get a $5 life coaching certificate or go on to— so, you know, it's tricky to know, especially with AI, especially with technology, especially with podcasts, social media. Anybody can claim anything. And I'm not saying that there's not people out there who don't have a wealth of information, right? Do they know where to stop? Do they know where to say, this is who you need to talk to, versus I claim to be the end-all be-all, which I think is actually contradictory to having empathy. It's very selfish. It's very much about me versus about you. So start off as a therapist, then addiction stuff. Where did these— where did this theme— because now you have, you have a few books that you've— that you've—

yes, I do.

So, so, but we're here to talk about empathy. And your version of it. So let's, let's, let's get into that.

So actually, it's, it's not even empathy. So empathy is— and I came up with the word because people were not empathizing enough. And then the ones that did empathize, people don't realize this. I can be very empathetic. If I'm empathetic towards the Republicans, I'm going to be— that's going to be my in-group. Then the outgroup are going to be the Democrats. So it's not— that's why empathy is a little bit more than just empathy. It's able to see many different sides. Matter of fact, my last book is looking at the third side of the coin.

Nice.

So it— right. So it's a negotiation process. It's not just empathy. And matter of fact, did you know empathy— there's 3 types of empathy?

I did not know that.

Yeah, that's what I said. I usually thought there was two, you know, emotional and cognitive. There's also compassionate.

And so, which we would think would be the most obvious.

Yes. So actually, I think there still really is the two, because if you look at it, you have the emotional where you feel what they're feeling. And then the compassionate, Jason Wasser, is where you so much feel that you want to help them. To me, I think when you're emotional, emotional empathy, I want to help them. That's just me. So then the cognitive, which is what us therapists do a lot, because if we were getting emotionally involved with our clients all the time and during COVID we would have just died. Oh, yeah. Right. Exactly. So, so empathy is basically, it's banter with empathy and it's a 3-step process. So you're going to empathize first. You want to see the big picture. And then you're going to do bantering, which is a little bit of chitchat. They've done studies where that cognitively, your brain— I saw you talking about the brain. It gets the brains to synchronize. Did you know that? Do you know that kids today think it's a waste of time to chitchat? A lot of them. Right. Did you know that?

Oh, I can see in just their communication style and what's being forced upon them where there isn't that engagement is just about getting to the end result.

Right.

Versus building connection and relationships.

Exactly. So I'll even have clients, I say, just say hi to somebody today and just chitchat. Why?

That's so weird.

So, so that's, yeah. Right. And that's part of empathy. So just doing this chitchat and having a mindset of a win-win.

Yeah.

So that, right. Not that black and white thinking.

Well, you just remind me of, I have a friend of mine who, yeah. Works in education now, but as a joke, their whole thing is emotions.

Ew.

I'm like, you do realize it was probably an emotion.

So I know it's just, yeah, it is what it is. I think that people today are wonderful. I really do. What I did for a month and a half is I took my TV down and people are going, Joe, why did you do that? I said, because there's too much. We have a world of too much. And when you have a world of too much, you're overwhelmed and you don't even know. Think about your house. I tell people, think about your house. If you have too much in your house, what are you going to do? Where are you going to clean? You don't even know where to start.

Where's there space for you?

Exactly. So we just need to— and that's another thing. I have something called the Map of Reflection where you're in the center of your world and then you learn to prioritize people, places, and things. Where are they in your life? Because there's just so much.

There's so much. Yeah.

Yeah.

So then how does someone discern the difference between being empathetic, being caring, wanting to help?

Yes.

And identifying, which I think is actually a much larger pandemic than what we had with COVID Yeah. Is the codependent pandemic, the over-involved.

Yes.

Lacking boundary, sticking their finger in someone else's rear end. Because I care, right? Pandemic. How do you, how do you discern that at a simple level?

So one, one, what is missing and we need to do more of, uh, parents and friends, teachers need to model the appropriate behavior because that's how we learn. And if I don't know, if I come from an abusive family I'm going to think that's the norm until I start engaging in the world. And then I'm going to go, oh, you hear what I'm saying? I remember my mom. I saw— I went at 10 years old. This was very— I was very devastated. I went to the gym for the first time. I saw all these women with different breasts and different figures. I was like, my Lord, I thought they all were supposed to look like my mother. So, so the first thing is to model the behavior. And so I tell people to step back and, and you need to ask people, ask people if they need help. Do you know blind people don't want you to help them? You need to ask them, would you like me to help you? And a lot of them, they'll say no. They will go ahead and walk across the street by themselves. So it's just to— what's your thought on that?

It's such an interesting thing because I see so many of my clients Yeah, especially young professionals. Yes, especially those that are dating. Oh, over-insert, you know, or in that dating process. Yes, over-inserting or over-investing in something that they could simply say, hey, I'm seeing this, would you like my perspective on it, in a way that might make it easier for you Right. And then the difference is between sharing that information once they get permission.

Yeah.

And actually doing that for that other person, which actually disempowers the other person.

Right. It enables them.

Right. And I'm finding that even with my entrepreneurs.

Yes.

Who are wonderful and wanting to make sure that their team is well taken care of.

Right.

Or sometimes moving into a parentification role.

Right.

With little consequences to the team because they don't want to see their kids, right, at the company upset, disappointed, or their reputation being smeared if they disappointed them in any way and they gave them a reason to go out into the community.

Right.

And to talk badly.

Yeah.

Which doesn't help a company grow.

No. And another way, just listening to you talk, I like to give analogies because people will get analogies. And a lot of the kids today, that's why that Barbie movie was so big. Because if a parent says something to a child, come on, if I say something to my husband, what's— so it's nice to hear it from someone else and also to give an analogy. And one of the analogies I give— do you want to hear one of the great— yeah. So I tell my clients, if you have a child, and since day one, you tie their shoe and they go, when they're 5 years old, oh, mommy, mommy, I'm going to, or daddy, I want to tie my shoe. No, no, no, no, no. I know best. I know best. And they keep tying the shoe. Finally, they're 18 years old and you've been tying their shoe the whole time. And you go, okay, now it's time to tie your shoe. Well, they're not going to know how to do that. So that's my analogy that I give and they get it.

Right. Which you think would be obvious. To many things, right? That this would be an obvious analogy to many people, and there is that missing connection. I remember a couple years ago I was talking to a client about this, and I'm like, if only there was some type of, like, you know, when you go to the Boy Scouts or the Girl Scouts, there's merit badges. Yes. And you have to do certain things, levels, step-by-step completion, right? There's different levels, right? There's Cub Scouts and there's Webelos and, uh, uh, Boy Scouts. And, but, you know, I forgot what— there was another one, um, But for each thing, in order to get marriage— merit badges, yes, you have to go through the checklist of each thing in sequence, right, of demonstrated capacity. So it's not just getting the badge, it's doing the things in the sequence and showing proof of, right, the process of doing the work, the process of the struggle, the process of the mistakes are just as important as getting the badge sewn onto your, onto your, onto your shirt, right? How cool would it be if parents together, when they started having— for each developmental age of their children, right, would sit down and create some type of merit badge book of here are the things for our, for us to feel successful, right, as parents?

Yes.

By this age, we'd like our kids to know this. By this age, we'd like our kids to know this. By the time they're 18 and ready to move out of the house Here's what we'd like them to know.

Sure.

Finances, budgeting.

Sure.

X, Y, and Z, whatever it may be. So we know that, oh, we offered you to do this, right? But you didn't take us up on it. We did our job. We're not going to feel guilty when you say, but I don't know how I'm going to pay my rent. I guess you're gonna have to figure it out if we gave you that. But then obviously you can get into the fine, here's $100, here's $500. Okay, fine, we'll cover your rent. And then you get stuck in that same Right.

So that's another reason I do have families have family meetings. And I like the family meetings. You do the same thing. I have them do family meetings. And what I do, Jason Wasser, even if they have a kid that is 2 years old, I said everybody gets to lead the family meetings. So in my BEMpathy, I have the 3 personalities in the world. You have a leader, a follower, and a compromiser. If you don't know what you are portraying, how are you going to know how to engage with that person? So this way you get to be a leader, you get to be a compromiser. You need, need to learn those three things. Exactly.

And I'm wondering, do you see that there are certain themes? Because I see this with like that minimizing-maximizing pattern that in especially in relationships, right, where you'll have certain things where one partner is a maximizer and one's the minimizer. But there might be certain things where it's switched.

Yes.

And then there might be some more minor themes where both are the Maximizer and some other minor themes where both are the Minimizer.

Right.

But a lot of the conflict comes from when they're at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Do you find that there are themes that, that three roles actually shift, where they might have a dominant, but then there are patterns or themes or issues or concerns where they might be the leader and then in certain things they might be the follower and then the other person may need to take that role as leader or needs to learn how to step into that role as leader.

Yeah. I find a lot of people that are working and they're a boss or they're a big jefe, uh, that they like to let it go when they're at home and like the other person to lead. So it, it does, it, it, it depends on the person. You are gonna get some people that wanna be in control the whole time. Uh, Either way, I, I, this is what I talk to my clients about. It's also in my book. There shoulda, woulda, couldas. Therapists are, yeah, therapists are talking, no, don't say shouldas. I say, say all the shoulda, wouldas, you coulda. Really? Because those are your rules and those are whoever your friend is, your, your lover is, your partner is. Listen to the shoulda, woulda, couldas. And are they working for you? Are they working for them? And you need to know what they are. Do you know I have clients that will come in and they're married and they say they have no rules? I go, what do you mean you have no rules? Yes, right.

So do they not realize that they don't have— that they do have rules, that they just haven't formulated them or shared them? But they're these—

no, we have no rules. Wow. Yeah.

Well, what are some examples of what that relationship looks like as you're helping them navigate that? So if someone's hearing this and they're like, oh, I don't know, I think we have rules. Is there something that makes that type of relationship stand out as far as patterns or dynamics?

So sometimes that works because it'll just be— some people have— know how to deal with their conflicts so that their rules are— well, rules do fluctuate. Their rules are flexible.. And if that, if that's the case, then you don't have to worry. It's when the rules are rigid.

Yeah.

That there's an issue. Okay. So if the rules are rigid, that's when I tell people they need to listen to the shoulda, woulda, couldas, and then we find some commonalities there so that they can work together with their, their rules.

Yeah.

So that's, that's what I find.

Yeah. It's interesting because I see that it's all the time where, yeah, majority of clients come in.

Yes.

And the thing that they're coming in to work on is really more of a symptom than the actual thing that needs to be solved. It's a symptom of the thing that needs to be solved. So how they're talking about it, right, obviously tells you, right, that you and I are seasoned professionals.

Yes.

But when you start hearing those themes, you start seeing, well, where else is this showing up in ways that they don't even realize?

Right.

Then it does go back to the pattern of beliefs that they don't even realize is holding that. Stuck, right? And then how scary is it for them to have to abandon that belief because they've never entertained the idea that, how would— how is this not serving me type of idea?

So I tell people that they're a 1968 Camaro, okay? And that's a classic. You don't want to change them into a Mercedes. That's in my book. You don't, because if you did, they wouldn't be that wonderful classic. So you wanna tune 'em up, realign them, and polish them. Yeah. So if they have beliefs, we just tweak 'em a little bit. They can continue to have that belief and they can look at the pros and cons of that belief. And then we engage, we do our empathy and we banter with empathy to find out, okay, what do we have in common in that belief? Also with your, your partner or in your life, and then we can go a different direction. So it's, we're still going to California, we're just not going on I-10.

Yeah.

We're taking, we're taking a detour cuz it got a little bit bumpy. Yeah.

Are there scenarios out there where you have experienced where it's permissible, perhaps even healthy, to not show empathy? To not show, like, are there things that are so black and white and so concrete where it's like, oh no, I don't want this, I don't want to engage with this, no matter what way I look at it, it will not be healthy for me and/or people in my circles. Is there, is there a way of discerning that?

Yeah. Well, so again, in my book, yeah, I don't talk about bad and good because that doesn't tell me anything. I talk about negative and positive. So, and I think even Gottman does that. If you do a negative thing, you have to do how many? 5 or 7 positive things.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Right.

Okay. Positive versus negative.

Yeah. I don't, I don't do that.

I don't, I think if it's 7 to 1 or 6 to 1, I think you're already getting divorced. Right. I think that's, so for those of you, right, if, if those of you listening, you wanna type in positive, positive to negative sentiment override, basically it's the bank accounts, right? People think that if you do 5 to 7 positive interactions with a loved one versus every one negative. Oh my gosh, right? I put $7 in and I only took a buck out. I'm doing really well, right? We're in surplus. Yeah, it's actually not. It actually— that is detrimental at that level. So it has to be significantly— there's different numbers, right? Some say 30 to 40, some say 50, right? But yeah, bare minimum, do 7 to 1.

So you know what I say? I say just be aware of your words. We're just— we have all these words. Oh my gosh, when I have people, they— I had a fight, I was talking to my loved one, blah blah. I go, were you talking? I was texting. And, and, you know, they just— I can't keep— the texts are so long, how can you even know what you're texting? Yeah, you know, so we got to be careful of our words. And that's what you're talking about, is our words. So when we are saying something, if it's cutting like a life, or it's taken away from us, it's negative. So we need to do something that is going to add to our life. And some things don't add to our life. And that's what you're telling me, just to be aware of it. And some things that don't add really don't really do much. I mean, if someone borrowed some money from me and they didn't pay it back, it depends on how much they didn't pay me back. Right. Right. So it really depends on the negative. Does that make sense?

Yeah, that does. I guess that leads me to my next question is, is when someone isn't at the healthy stage to be able to receive this type of languaging, whether it's denial, whether, you know, the old school denial, right? It's not— we know that there's, you know, different ways of looking at this. But if someone is not— someone's doing their best, they're in the empathy stage, they're really mastering it.

Yes.

And they're in some dynamic with someone that just isn't getting it right.

The other person's not getting the other person right. Yeah. So sometimes— and also in my book, that's another book, uh, is the BEMpathy Triangle. And so I tell people, when you're in a situation, to step back. And you step back and you yourself get grounded So fulfilled. I tell people that no one completes us. We need to be completed, and then they just make it better. So the same thing in a situation, and situations change. That's why that map of reflection is so— I love my map of reflection. I really do. Because in the outer is called spring cleaning, and I have it blue. So things can ebb and flow. Negative people can ebb and flow back in your life because don't people sort of tweak themselves. I'm not going to say change. They do tweak themselves. So at that time, it might not be healthy for you to be with that person. That doesn't mean it's permanent because life is temporary. So it's all how we look at things. So maybe that moment, maybe that year, you're going to do without that negativity, and then you can relook at it in a month, in 2 months. That's what I have people do because I don't believe— there's nothing absolute. I don't even know where I'm going to go when I leave this earth. Nothing is absolute, right? I'm not a scientist.

Yeah. And even they don't know. They don't even know.

Nothing is absolute.

I don't think anybody knows, right? But it's, yeah, it's best guess.

Yeah.

I'm thinking about a scenario where, yeah, you know, in the, in the business space.

Yes.

And right, we have entrepreneurs, those that are creating the businesses and owning it and running it. And then you have the people that are intrapreneurs, right? They're helping. I like that way better than hired help, right? But they have, they're stakeholders, right? They know that the better they do, the better the company does. But sometimes the company doesn't reinvest back into that. So, okay, you know, I see this often. I see this often where you have someone who is really committed and dedicated to their role, right? And they want to grow.

Yes.

And yet, for whatever reason, that system works against them. Now, it may not be blatant. It's just, as you know, when we're talking about a system, it's just the pattern of a group of people that, you know, there's always hierarchy and structure and things that are working and a lot of things that aren't working. Makes it make sense. Or as we would call it, homeostasis, right? That thermostat.

Right.

And I find a lot of times that companies are losing really dedicated, passionate people. Right. Because what we would call empathy for— from the top down, majority of the times. And unless a team member learns how to manage up, which shouldn't be their job, right, then they're gonna most likely lose that potential person, and they're just going to constantly go through better or worse, you know, of that same type of personality. But how would someone in that— using this lens, how would someone who is frustrated, is annoyed in that entrepreneur business space. They're not the owner. They don't have decision-making power. They do see how they can have impact, but they don't yet have that influence. What would be a first step conversation in order to—

So are they, did they, do they want to stay in that position?

Well, they either want to stay and grow in that position and learn additional skills that will allow them to evolve into a higher position. Or be more successful in that position, which will benefit them anyway in the long run. It'll benefit the company in the long run. But they may have a person above them, a manager, a team leader above them that just isn't as—

I love it.

I've got it. This is my empathy.

Great.

So I do, you know, self-fulfilling prophecy, the Pygmalion effect. I do that because it really does work. If you put me in a room full of cats and I don't like cats, I'm going to treat the cats differently than if I love cats and you put me in a room. So attitude is everything. And so anyway, so what you do is you have them write down— I had someone do this for their husband at work. You have them write down what kind of boss that they want. If you're talking about the boss, also, they— that's one, and I'll tell them what to do. And then the other is you're going to write down the kind of job you want. And then you say, I'm in the process of having more flexibility. Not saying you don't have flexibility. Got it? Okay. So they're going to do that. Now, I like my clients to write it down and then send it to me because a lot of times we put out there what we have. So if my house is messy, Jason Wasser, I'm sorry, it's me. Yeah. You know? Like, I'll give you— can I give you an example?

Sure.

I've done this on other podcasts. I think it's funny. I laugh at myself. My husband and I were watching TV about a year ago, and I look at him with disgust, Jason. I look at him and I say, Byron, all you do is watch TV and stuff your damn face. And he had the audacity to say, well, Jill, you're doing the same thing. So I tell my clients that because I want them to know I'm real. Right? And we all do this. And so we need to look at our world and Newton's law, action creates reaction. So if I change my action, I'm going to get a different reaction right there. That's the answer. Yeah. Let's go with that.

Yeah. I see that big in the law of attraction world if you want to look at it from that lens. Right. But you're also hitting the basics of Psychology 101.

Right.

If it triggers you out there, it's an attribute or an aspect of yourself that you need to work on. The trick is, do you get that?

Right.

And I think that's that self-awareness.

Right. And one thing, because there are exceptions to the rules, and so they need to also understand that some things— I mean, there are going to be some people that don't like Jill Robin Payne. Might hurt my feelings. It's going to happen. I can't have everyone love me.

Right, I'm not gonna be— I'm not gonna be empathetic to those people. Something's wrong with them.

Thank you, Jason.

You're welcome.

Yeah, so if they can know that, I think that will make it better for them too, because no one's perfect.

Yeah, yeah. I think this is kind of like, you know, where ego— where the, you know, you have this new generation of people like, oh, I demand, or I should be in this position or job, right, you know, by now, versus right going to their team and their bosses, whoever, and saying, after hours, I'm willing to learn more things. After hours, after I do my work, I'm willing to partner with someone else in a different team to help them and to learn.

Right. Yes.

Who, who, who and how can I do that?

Right.

And a lot of times I think we're, we, I mean, this is the, the challenge with any system is that sure, to think differently. But how many times I hear people say, like, I can't, I can't do that. I can't, I can't ask that. I don't want to overstep on toes. I don't want to be the overeager beaver type of personality and then come off as like Pollyannish and like I'm coming after someone else's job. Well, make that clear that you're not. Say, you know, you want to learn what resources and what tools are available in the company and/or does this company, if I see a course I really want to take that I think will be a sales course or a marketing course or an AI course that will help me do my job better and more efficiently, would the company be willing to pay for it?

Right. They also need to know what they want. A lot of times they think they— and I say they, people, including myself, we think we know what we want and we really are not knowing what we want, or we know what we want and we're, like I said, putting out something else. A really good thing in my empathy is, and it happened when I was writing somebody on LinkedIn, I was writing them and I used chat. I wrote my thing and then I said, well, I like chat to make it clear, right? And so I read it and I said, you know what's missing? I had my arms crossed. This letter had nothing about the other person in it. What is the other person getting from this? Letter. I— why would they even want to talk to me? It's all about Jill. How boring, you know? I—

do you think that's what most people do in a communication? It's really just, I'm gonna prove to you why you're wrong and I'm right, and you should be wise enough to be the type of person to admit when you're wrong, right, and concede.

Yeah, right.

Which is the basis of couples work. If only that person knew this, saw this, and changed, then I'd be okay.

So I'm a little different on there. Yeah, I believe when people come in, it's both of them. This is my empathy. It's the dynamics, because I'm not going to yell at myself. Well, maybe I will. And so I might. So what I'm saying is it's the dynamics. And I tell clients, even when they come in, I don't blame anybody. It's no blame. It is the dynamics. And we've got to find out what's going on. Just like you said before, they come in, the toilet seats, the husband keeps it up and the woman doesn't roll up her toothpaste. That's not the reason they're coming in because of disrespect.

Correct.

So we got to find out what the theme is and the commonality. And I make sure that blame is out the window. Blame just doesn't work for me. No, it just doesn't.

It's the meaning around what that thing is according to that person. So, right, that's the angle I come from. I'm saying that people come in from that perspective that I described, right? That's where they're coming in thinking, if only my partner would stop doing that thing, then I would be okay with them.

I agree.

Or if they listen to me and they finally did what I wanted them to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right. So you and I are completely in alignment on our approach.

Yeah, yeah.

But I think that's where people get stuck.

Yeah, right.

That's where I think people, 99% of people get stuck is if only my partner, if only my company, if only my kid, if only my whatever, the government did what I saw was right, you know.

Well, there I'd know. Yeah.

So, but, but then it becomes someone has to win and someone has to lose, right?

And that's not empathy.

That's not empathy.

It is not. And so that's how come you need to find out where you want to go, because if I fight with my husband and, and I win we have lost. Think about it.

Yeah.

Because he lost, he's my partner. He ain't gonna be feeling, ain't.

Right.

He's not gonna be feeling the best. No.

And both have to win. Both have to win. Right.

Same with your boss. You may have a boss, you don't have to like your boss to get along with him. Did you know that? Oh, easily. Yeah. A lot of people don't know that. They think that they have to get along. They're supposed to be, no. You don't need to like anybody at work, right? Just need to be able to get along, get your projects done, and be heard. And they need to be heard, heard and appreciated and respected. That's— it needs to be reciprocated.

Yeah. So I have 5 fast-fire bonus questions for you that we'll wrap up with.

Okay.

So top of your head, no wrong answers, as you know, right?

Yeah.

So, ready?

I guess.

Okay.

Nothing good.

All right. Nothing scandalous. One word that best describes empathy in action?

Negotiation.

What's the biggest communication myth you wish people would stop believing?

I'm right, you're wrong.

What's your favorite playful banter question to break the ice and help people connect?

Oh my gosh, I don't know. I don't know. Okay, to break the ice, to break the ice, break the connection. Yeah, I don't know if I can say— I don't know if I can say it on here.

Go for it.

Seriously, it's my favorite thing. Whenever I take a picture with someone, yeah, I say the word sex because sex makes it— see, you laughed. See, I didn't know if I could say that.

Of course you did.

Oh, okay. Well, I did. And the people, I'll say something with a sexual tone and you say sex and people start laughing.

Right.

I don't know if it's because they're uncomfortable or they just think it's completely not connected to the thing that you're in.

Right.

No, it's not. Right. Yeah. Yeah, so that's what I would do.

Yeah, that's awesome.

I like that.

You like it?

I love it. Yeah, listen, anything that— I'm a button pusher, so anything that I can, uh— yeah, listen, I have clients that like— year— it's been a while since I saw this person, but like their challenges was to come in every week with it with a really radically hysterical inappropriate joke to start the session off. Oh, so right, no filter in that regard. So at least, right, that— talk about bringing that to therapy. You're like, yeah, come Jason, come in and try to get me on a good joke, right?

Yeah.

So, two more.

Okay.

If everybody woke up tomorrow and they were automatically practicing empathy, yes, what would be the first change we'd notice in the world?

It would be a lot more smoother, and people would be getting more of what they wanted. There you go. Love it. Yes.

And last one.

That was serious on me.

That was serious, right? That was good.

That was, yes.

Yeah. So what's the most surprising thing someone's ever told you after starting to apply empathy?

Oh, I just had someone tell me they passed their test. They just called me up and said they passed their test. Yeah. So there you go. Nice. Yeah. You get your dream. So I even trademarked it. Dream Life Motivator. Remember you said that anybody could? Yeah. So I am a Dream Life Motivator because when people come see me, Jason Wasser, they get their dreams. Like I said, people don't realize what they really want a lot of times. And it gets clarified.

Awesome. So not only do you have this book, but I know there's another book behind you. So, yeah, it'd be remiss if we didn't plug that one that's sitting there, the Meeting People book.

Oh, yeah. Meeting People, It's Not a Game. I've got it right here. This is really my favorite book. It was my first and I revamped it and it worked so well, y'all. I met my second husband who I've been with for 14 years because of this. Listen, 24 years I was single and everybody that was coming to see me was finding their person because of this. I said, I'm going to read my book. So I read it and it works.

That was it.

There you go. And then the other one is The Third Side of the Coin. So it's— they're both empathy. And then this one was my first empathy book, and it's basically looking through children's eyes to simplify communication. And you have these cute little characters that I want— I'm going to start animating. Oh, wish me luck. Yeah.

Amazing.

So we'll see. I'll keep you posted.

Okay. And if anybody out there is an animator and has done books like this, please reach out to Jill.

Yeah, no, I'm doing it myself.

Oh, you're doing it yourself?

Oh, I'm doing it myself.

Never mind, then just buy the book. Just buy the book.

Yeah, the books are— that's for fun. So I believe everybody needs some— a hobby. Yeah, find a passion, and, and, and it's gonna, you know, makes your day happier, right? You don't want to do the same old thing.

No, which is so funny that you're talking about that because I just started a new thing, um, and it evolved out of sheer universes lining up.

Yes.

But I just started formally a consultancy that works with creatives, artists, musicians, etc., high-powered entrepreneurs.

Yeah.

But where I am working with them more from that full-on, not just therapy.

Yeah.

But coaching, consultancy, management.

Right.

And a friend asked me like, how do you have time to do this as a, as another job? I'm like, Oh no, no, this is a shits and giggles hobby. Like, I'm making money off of it, but it's completely, completely, completely a passion project, right? And I'm now managing two touring professional rock star musicians when I have no—

I can't— I can't ask who or no.

Yeah, well, it's on the phone. You can go, right, everybody who's listening, because it's the first time I'm talking about this online. The organization is called the Shevet Collective. And Shevet in Hebrew means tribe, right? So it's, it's, it's a tribe for people who are passionate, created.

Yes.

Really those who want not the run of the mill, right? Where there's already the, the silos that have the industries have already been run. Same, same, same. And we're offering something different where it's full on, like as if you're coming to me as a therapist, but I'm not doing the therapy part with you. But I'm leading it as such. And it really is. So one of the artists is a gentleman named Mikey Pauker, who's an incredible musician who I've been actually friends with for a couple of years. And then it transformed to this. And the other one who I'm on the management team is a gentleman named Tim Snyder. And Tim is a multi-instrumental singer-songwriter, guitar, violin, looping, plays with musicians, Trevor Hall, who he's on tour with right now. So amazing, amazing musicians. I'm working with his band and his art.

Yeah.

Um, so it's all a hobby, and it completely came out of aligning and being in the right place and having the—

there you go—

having a conversation with someone of— started off with, hey, I want to pick your brain about something, or hey, I'm interested in working with you as a student, right? And then as the relationship evolves, coming into you know, there's something that you're missing. Would you like to hear this? Here's an idea for you that no one else is going to present to you because they're stuck in a different model.

Silo, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So, so that's— talk about creating a cool hobby.

Yeah. See, and we just brought up something about hobbies. People need to start doing some hobbies. They're so focused on being an influencer or being this or being that. And I think people need to step back and the world will be a happier place or joyful. More joyful. For sure. Joyful is different than happy. Happy is fleeting. Yes. People don't know that.

Sounds like you listen to Esther Hicks a little bit. I don't know.

Is that— she in your repertoire? Yeah.

Your own personal guidance system.

It's my own personal—

your own personal guidance system. Yeah. There's a— I love the languaging of that because it's salient. It's true and accurate. Yeah, the more, right, bringing more joy. What's— what have you done that's joyful today?

Yeah, right. People want to be happy and they need to do joy.

They need to enjoy. So cool.

Which is what you're doing, which is what we're doing together.

Yeah, exactly. Which is why I love doing this podcast.

So, yes.

So yeah. So where can people find you?

So my website is jillrobinpayne.com, and then I'm on all the platforms @jillrobinpaint.

Easy breezy.

Easy breezy. Yeah. And my books are on Amazon, and The Meeting People is also audio. It's my favorite, and it's me talking. Nice.

Very cool.

Very cool. Well, congrats on all of this amazing stuff.

Thank you for having me, Jason.

My absolute pleasure.

Yeah.

So brought some joy to my day, so I appreciate that. And I hope everybody else out there.

Yes.

So if there's anybody anybody who is listening to this, and obviously you know how to get in touch with Jill, um, but we would love, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting that how far a good review goes, right? You know this about your books and, and, you know, Amazon reviews, etc. Um, but if, if, but if you do have time, you're listening to this show and you, this episode specifically, and you did get something out of this, please feel free to, to go on out, you know, on, uh, Apple Podcasts, etc., leave us a positive review. That helps the algorithm as much as people think it doesn't. It really does help the algorithm and it helps us get found. And if there's someone you know that would be beneficial to hear this episode or other episodes, share it. Or if you think someone would be beneficial to read the book or your books, then, you know, they should feel free to, you know, back to school, back to school time to buy some books for somebody.

And if they have a question, please email me. Yeah, really, of course. And if I, if I didn't respond, I didn't see it. I always give at least a happy face.

Good.

So there you go.

Good, good, good. Awesome. All right, y'all, we'll check you out in the next episode. And Jill, again, thank you so much for hanging out.

Thanks for listening to the You Winning Life podcast. If you are ready to minimize your personal and professional struggles and maximize your potential, we would love it if you subscribed so you don't miss an episode. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Jason Wasser LMFT 🎗️.