Ep. 197-Quiet Cracking: Why We Ignore Red Flags in Careers w/Eliana Goldstein #career

Check one, test, test, one, test, test, test. Today's guest is Ileana Goldstein, a certified career and executive coach who's on a mission to help professionals create careers that truly excite them and pay them well. She's the resident career coach for CBS New York Morning News and a proud member of the Forbes Coaches Council. Ileana's coaching strategies have been featured on MSNBC, Business Insider, and Fast Company, and she's guided hundreds of ambitious professionals to pivot out of burnout, negotiate for what they're worth, and to step into roles that align with both their strengths and their values. Her belief is simple yet powerful. Everyone deserves a career that feels fulfilling and financially rewarding, and that's exactly what she and her team helps their clients achieve. Ileana, thanks for hanging out with us today.

I'm good. Let me remove my note taker. It does not need to be here.

And I got the AI thing set up.

Perfect.

Yeah.

Honestly, I don't even know how I do that.

Oh, uh, hold on. I can move it out.

Okay, yeah, you— I think you can, you can. There you go, perfect. There you go, perfect. How's it going?

Good, how are you?

I'm good, I'm good. Just, you know, trying to get back into the rhythm post-summer. That's, that's what's going on. Yeah, yeah.

Well, you're where, in New York?

I'm in New York, yeah, very good.

Yeah, yeah, Upper West Side.

I— so I grew up Upper West Side, um, but now I'm in Brooklyn.

Got it, got it. Done plenty of dating in the Upper West Side over the years, so I know.

Oh yeah, that's so funny. And where are you?

Where are you now? I'm in South Florida. I grew up in South Florida, lived in New York. I did the whole Israel, New York, back here, whatever thing. So, but yeah, pre-pandemic, tons of Upper West Side dating.

So I mean, the Upper West Side's great. My parents are still there, same place that I grew up. And last summer we like were in between apartments, so myself and my husband and kids moved in with my parents for, for a little bit and And I love the Upper West Side. I always say, like, if my parents weren't there, I'd probably be there.

Wow, okay, that's a bold statement. That's— I remember, what's that restaurant?

Peace—

oh gosh, it's a Peace Food Cafe.

Oh yeah, great, like vegan food, right?

Yeah, yeah, I used to go with an ex-girlfriend. We used to go there like every Sunday when I was up there, and that'll be our brunch.

Yeah, it's so good. So good.

I know it well. Lincoln Square, that whole area.

I know, that's exactly where I grew up.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, so whatever those apartment complexes right, um, was it the, the 23 Lincoln Towers? Lincoln Tower.

Yeah, that's where I grew up. I grew up in Lincoln Towers.

Oh my gosh, I wonder if you know the family. That's really funny.

That's so funny.

They're from Jersey originally, but Kafka— I don't know if there was a— they have a few— they actually own 2 or 3 apartments in there.

But, huh, I don't know.

She was a PT.

Lovely. I bet my parents would know.

And the parents had their weekend, their, their weekend from West Orange Apartments.

That's so funny.

Oh my God, I know that complex.

You know exactly where— you know my childhood.

Sounds like a therapy session already.

Exactly, exactly. I love it. That's so funny.

So yeah, so very, very cool. All right, well, I know you do a bunch of these and I know you're doing a lot of stuff. I want to make this different for you. Okay. So one, because, you know, it's the wash and repeat and I'm sure you get bored in doing that and I don't want to waste your time doing that either. Is there— and I have a few notes just that I was kind of pulling, kind of pulling through, but yeah, is there something that's relevant for you right now that you haven't had enough time to talk about it yet? Where this is like, this has been marinating, this has kind of been like popping up with my, my clients, has been popping up with the companies I've been— whatever it is, like, here's the theme that I'm seeing, but I haven't yet had really enough opportunity to talk about this.

Yeah, it's funny, you know, I was just, just in my newsletter today that I just started talking about, there's this new trend, trend going around. It's a negative trend, but it's called quiet cracking.

Okay.

So there was this note, there was this whole, you might've heard of it before, this idea of quiet quitting where, you know, because you're working remote and you know, there isn't as much visibility, people can kind of just, you know, do what they need to do to get by, but it's almost like they're quietly quitting their job. Sure. And now it's evolved into this idea of quiet cracking, which is basically just like quietly losing your mind to a degree. And it's perpetuated by this idea that the job market is extremely tough right now. And so the idea of like making a change and moving into something new feels really intimidating. Simultaneously, companies, you know, from an economic perspective, are worried about hiring. So they're putting more work on individuals, just causing people to feel overwhelmed, to feel burnt out, but then they feel trapped because there's nowhere else to go. Go, leading to this epidemic of quiet cracking. So that could, I mean, that's definitely relevant. I think a lot of people are feeling that right now. And I haven't, like, I quite literally just sent, started talking about it in a newsletter today, but I haven't spoken about it.

Okay, good. So that's apropos and my turnaround is pretty quick on these, so it could be like next week it would probably be released. So, okay.

Okay.

So that might be relevant in that regards.

That's perfect.

Yeah, it's funny, just because funny enough, you and I are talking today. A good friend of mine who's becoming a registered intern therapist, so pre-full licensure, they need to be under supervision, right, for autonomous practice. Just got a contract from a place I actually referred them to, to see.

Okay.

As an intern, because I'm mostly virtual, so therefore they need to be in the office. Happen to be a member of the tribe, right? Nice Jewish practice. And the contract came back and I'm like, you cannot sign this. Like there was 10, like bullet pointed 10 different ethical and actually legal issues.

Oh my God.

The thing. And she's like, yeah, but it's the only game in town for me right now.

Right.

To get my hours in. So I don't know what, you know, I relate it back to like relationships and dating. And I work with a lot of young women who are in their 20s and early 30s who are like, oh God, the guy I've been dating since high school, I married from high school, is a sociopath or is a narcissist. Legit narcissist, not TikTok narcissist, but like legit narcissist.

Like, yes.

Yeah. So, you know, and like how long it takes them to figure that out and break up and they go out with another guy that's just like that. And I'm like trying to figure out like, what's the core thing that drives? And I'm wondering, because I know men do this in a different way, but what drives females, especially in the job market, but especially because I see no different job market relationships. Like, what's that thing that's driving?

It's so interesting. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. So I'm wondering, I mean, this is like a future conversation for you and I to have offline.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, doing some research together because I'm like, you would be perfect to do some research with me on this, right?

Absolutely.

Because I see it's like you're going, you know, it's going to be an abusive relationship. You know, it's like, you know, the guy beat his last girlfriend.

Right.

But he's nice to you.

Right.

And so therefore I'm going to give it a chance.

I'm getting the offer. This is that, right? Right.

It's the only contract that I got. I interviewed at 20 different jobs. This is the only people that want to hire me. I need to make income.

Right. Like, I have to take what I can get kind of thing. Yeah.

Looking at the contract, if I show this to you, because you've, I'm sure, looked at contracts, it's like it's independent contractor, but it's all the language of a W-2. And all the non-compete stuff is like, you can't see people in all of these counties for 2 years, and you can't see this particular Jewish population. Like, none of this is legal or ethical population, like, because it's an Orthodox Jewish practice.

Got it.

But it's like, it's not even just like, you can't see— you can't see Orthodox Jews related to this private school. Like Schachter on the Upper West Side, right?

Whatever.

Right, right. So like, that's like, you can't even put that in a contract because it's not even legal in the first place. So this is some of the stuff I'm seeing now with entrepreneurs where they're so unaware of what they're signing. Yeah, because they want—

they just want to have something.

They just want to have something. So maybe that's another theme. I don't, you know.

Yeah, yeah, we can definitely, can definitely talk about that, touch on in relationship to the just one.

Yeah. So taking a job or career that they know they shouldn't. I don't know, how do we describe that? Like it's— there's— they're not seeing the red flags.

Yeah. Or they're choosing to ignore them because. Yeah, because of a variety of different reasons. They feel like the best they can get because, you know, they don't see their own self-worth and what they're able to offer. Right. There's so many elements to that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, perfect. I already did an introduction to you, 45-ish minutes.

Perfect. Yeah, that's perfect.

Awesome. So I'm just going to welcome you in. I do. I always love hearing a little bit of the backstory without it being like you having to repeat everything that someone can listen to on another podcast. Is there a part of you figuring out how much you love this? Is there, is there a story that you have in mind of like, this is when I knew I absolutely should be spending—

love this work? Yeah. Um, it's such a good question because I like, if there's— I don't know if anyone's ever asked me before, like, was there a moment that I really realized that? But I think you could ask me that. I think I could go— I could, I could go with that.

Or was there a case that you were working with or someone you're working with? You're like, God, I really— like, for me, it was like I was, I was working at Princeton University Center for Jewish Life, the Hillel, on campus. And I realized 80% of my day was an informal or informal talk therapy. Like, I was taking the students out for coffee. I was talking to them about their life. They would show up in my office and hang out even though I was doing programming and educational stuff. But then I'm like, this is like— I'm getting— I'm doing therapy, right? Right. And I was a youth director in campus. All right, so it's like most of my day was creating the relationships, and I enjoyed that more than like all the logistical programming and backend stuff. I wanted this. And I was like, why aren't I looking into becoming a therapist? You know?

Right. So, so yeah, it's a, it's a good question. I think like, I don't know if there was a, and I can talk about it. I don't know if there was like a specific, I, it was, it took, and I can kind of give my story in terms of like how I even like came into this field. But like then it was kind of like a reverse engineer lightbulb moment of like, oh wow. This really hits on a lot of, you know, the things that I really love, right? But it was kind of like I had to do the market research in order to figure that out as opposed to like the light bulb moment type thing. You know what I mean?

Which I think is part of that process, which we can talk about of like, how do people, I'm a big fan of reverse engineering and figuring out what the X factor is you're really solving. 'Cause you think it's, right? What you're calling is X is really the Y. I mean, Y, not, not W-H-Y, but Y as in Y factor. And that's like what you're supposed to be solving. You just haven't figured out. So I feel like people are always off the mark with solving. Absolutely. Absolutely.

I agree. All right.

So I'll welcome you in and we'll, we'll go from there.

So perfect. There you go. A little backend, little backend.

197 sessions. I should have figured that part out by now, but yeah. Ah, hey, Ileana. Thanks for hanging out today.

Of course. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to chat with you.

So when I saw the email from your team that sent out to me, right, I'm at the point, like I just said, I'm almost up to 200 episodes. And at the beginning I was taking everything like, which one just sounds cool? That would be like enough to get good content. And now I'm at the point, like I've said over the last few episodes, where I'm like turning down a huge chunk of requests. And seeing what you do was so fascinating to me because one, as a therapist on one side who's moved into— in addition to what I'm doing with my couples and other stuff, is entrepreneur and business coaching, but also seeing what you was like, you were helping people figure out.

Yes.

That step even before they would even come potentially work with me. Right.

Absolutely.

Is such a cool niche area and something that I've seen that you are so ridiculously passionate about and are doing so many cool things. So let's just start off with a few minutes of like how this all started for you and how did you know, oh yeah, this is what I'm supposed to be doing.

Yeah, it's, you know, without going into too much of a long-winded story, I think I, like many people, graduated marketing major, landed a role, felt like, okay, this is what I'm meant to be doing. Very focused on kind of like the typical success metrics of, am I making good money? Do I have a good job title? All the things that I feel like the millennial generation especially very much chased. And, you know, I had a really good on-paper job and I felt really good about that, but underneath I felt very disconnected from the work that I was doing. And I felt really like lacked a lot of confidence in myself. And I just realized, you know, this isn't it, but I also didn't know what to do instead. So I kept kind of just like trying to guess, okay, let me switch to this company. Maybe that will feel better. Okay. That company doesn't feel better. Let me try this industry. Oh, this feels a little bit more, you know, mission-driven. Maybe I'll like that. So I was making all these pivots, which was really just guesswork, hoping that it would be the fit. None of those felt like the fit. And it kind of came to a point of like a boiling point of, okay, what you are doing is not working. You have to think about this in a different way. You have to really get clear on what it is that you want to do and what's meaningful to you. And did really just like a lot of market research, talking to people, kind of using my background in sales, being a people-facing person to network and just get to know variety of fields, think about myself. What is the work that I really enjoy, right? Like, I've always been a, been a people person. I've always been, you know, coaching isn't necessarily advice giving, but I was that person that friends would always come to. Okay, what do I do about this situation? I love to listen. I love to hear. I love to dissect. I love to understand. So I had all that awareness about myself and I was kind of taking all this information to figure out, okay, what is it that I want to do moving forward? And I had friend of a friend who was in coaching, and there was just something about it that kind of clicked in my head. And I thought I was actually considering becoming a therapist for a while. However, I was not a school person, and the idea of going back to school was kind of like, I don't know if I could do this. And I felt like while coaching and therapy are very different, they're— the elements of being people-facing, supporting people was there. And I said, let me just try this out. Let me go to a program, become a, you know, Certified Professional Coach, just to almost dip my toes in the water and see if I liked it. And I loved that program. It was just, I met so many amazing people. I felt good about it. It just was really lighting up all the areas of me that made me feel confident. And so I decided I'm going to try this out. I was still working. It was a side hustle at first. You know, I didn't want to kind of like go full on until I felt a little bit more secure. And then eventually just got to a point where I said, okay, this is it. I'm going to dive off the deep end. And go for it. And I haven't turned back since. But that's, that's the back end. That's the story. And I love it. I really do.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's— these are the stories that I love hearing because when you have those and many people do and many people are searching for it, it's kind of like, okay, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. This is what I know I can commit to. Is there, is there a case or scenario you remember, like a situation you were working with someone and it was just like the mat— you saw the magic happening and you're like, okay, Yeah, this is, this is the right path.

100%. And I think that idea of like the absence of confidence, I, you know, growing up, I definitely, I, my dad always jokes like I was very self-conscious. I was very in my own head and that showed up a lot at work as well in my initial role. But I always knew that there was a part of me that was kind of, I don't want to say being caged, but like I knew that there was a more confident part of me that existed somewhere in there and I couldn't figure out how to tap into it. And when I started doing this work and seeing, you know, like just just hearing somebody go, oh my gosh, like, I never thought that that would be a possibility for me, or I never thought about that being something I should pursue, and having this clarity has completely changed for me— seeing the confidence in them, which ignited this level of confidence in me, that was such an amazing thing because I never really experienced it. But I also knew that I was capable of experiencing it. So it was almost like this unlocking moment of, oh, this is like giving people that sense of confidence and supporting people in that journey really brings that out in me. And I I want— like, I was wanting to do my work. I used to avoid my work. I hated it. But now it's like I loved it because it just, it felt so good. And I knew that was like, okay, this is what I'm really meant to be doing.

So it sounds like you had this mission-driven, you know, one from your own journey, which I find one as a therapist, or even when I'm working with entrepreneurs, it's like when they're looking to solve something or to create a product or create— like, well, one, what's the thing from your life or that you think is out there in a particular niche that's missing that no one realizes is missing, but by having that would change everything for them, make life easier. But to also, like, even like when you're talking about relationships, it's— yeah, it's the simplicity of asking the question. And I, I sent home a client yesterday, married for 20-something years, and I'm like, when your wife just comes home to— later and whatever, let's just say— and she jumps at you and sort of like trying to convince her she's right or wrong. Can you just ask her a different question?

Yeah.

Right. And which is what, what, what, what can I do right now to show you how much I love you?

Right.

It's, it's, it's, it's kind of that pivot of from one section when you're talking about careers and what do I do and how do I find my passion, my motivation? We're trying to solve a problem. What am I missing? What will make me feel good? What will make me feel like I'm valued?

Absolutely.

At the same time, I see that same thing happening in all types of relationships. Instead of solving for the chaos, what's the simplest thing you can solve? Wait a second, hold on, pause for a second.

Yeah.

What will make you feel connected right now in this moment? Right? Because you may not have, like you said, I don't want to go back to school for a couple of years.

Yeah.

I don't want to have to, I'm not sure if I'm going to be good at that. Right?

Right.

But you saw an immediate thing of let me try this short term.

Exactly. Exactly. And it's kind of just the idea of being curious, right? And like you said, we so often are going through the motions and especially when you think about careers, oh, I got this degree, I should do this. This is what's going to— this is what my parents, you know, subconsciously have implanted in me. I should be doing all these ideas. And it's just about pausing and getting curious about yourself, about what interests you. And like you said, it's even when your partner is responding to you in some way, rather than wanting to respond back in a negative way, like getting curious about, okay, what might be going on here? What can I ask instead that, you know, will kind of, you know, put a pause in this? So I think that idea of like curiosity is just so important in all facets. Yeah.

And I find that most people, when they're trying to solve that problem, right, they're solving it as the emotional story, the family story, the intergenerational story, the gender-based story, whatever, right? Cultural stuff. And therefore that's only keeping them within a certain perimeter of choices, especially when it comes to their career. Right. I'll focus just on that. Right. So, but it doesn't mean that that's going to be the most authentic to them if they strip away the stories. But what they might find out is actually, right, oh, we have this intergenerational family business, but like, I'm third generation family furniture business that my grandfather started after the Holocaust, Scranton, Pennsylvania, got moved to South Florida. Right. But I'm the only sibling not in it.

Okay.

Now, don't get me wrong, I love flipping over a chair and seeing who made it, which is— yeah, but I'm like, but then I realize I'm like, that's not me. That's just me witnessing my dad. Doing that as a kid. So it's predisposed in me like, oh, what, what, where's that from? Is that Wayfair or is that American Leather, which is like, you know, one of the lines we carry. So, you know, there's stuff that we're predisposed to doing, which then at the end of the day could be authentic. If you strip away the story, you're like, oh yeah, maybe I do want to go into the family business. Oh yeah, maybe I do want to go into the same field my parents went in, right? Versus having all those triggers around it. How much of that process would you say is like part of the, you know, you're unfolding some stuff for them? Like, how— what percentage would you say is like unpackaging that stuff is part of the early stage of really helping someone get there to figure that out?

It's a huge part of it. Like in when we work with clients, we always like— I always say we always start with mindset work because it doesn't matter how tactical you are, how great your resume is, how great of a presenter you are. If you, as you are saying, have a story about what you are capable of, you know, what your skills say about you, what field you should be in, that's going to impact everything, right? It's going to impact how you show up. It's going to impact how you speak about yourself. So like the biggest thing I tell people all the time is before you do anything else, we got to kind of like clear away the cobwebs and make sure that you're going into the process as level-headed, self-assured, feeling clear about, you know, what your, what is like the facts of what has happened to you versus the story you've created around it, right? And having an understanding of that. So it's honestly one of the most important parts and kind of what you're talking about too, like the story, my parents, something I tell people all the time as we're again, kind of like pursuing this path of success is, are you pursuing your version of success or is it somebody else's version of success? Because 9 times out of 10, it's somebody else's version of success, whether handed down to you by your parents, by the people around you, by what you're seeing in society, on social media, right? Like you are pursuing something that you don't even want to pursue and you don't even know why you're pursuing it. So we gotta like get clear on all of that before you make any real big decisions.

It's interesting because I'm thinking about, right, you're in New York, I'm in South Florida, and we have a very similar work culture in the way of the grind and, and certain fields and stuff like that, and living a certain lifestyle, right, to be able to afford, because they're both expensive places.

Yeah.

And then I go to the Midwest or you go to somewhere in the South and they may work and they may be in a good field, but their motivation is different. Yeah, in a way. So I'm wondering, because you've, you know, I know you've done a bunch of different things. Do you find that there's regional differences for motivators? And I know this probably may or may not be the first time you've thought about this, but I, you know, I've seen some stuff. I'm wondering if there's something that's come across, like if I worked with someone in the Midwest or the South or someone in, you know, is there stuff that you're seeing that kind of might even be regionally influenced?

No, I think I absolutely, I think that, you know, a lot of the times, a lot of the people we work with are in big cities. So even sometimes in the Midwest, they might be in a bigger city in the Midwest. And so it's, it's definitely different. And I think that it's funny because like a lot of the people we work with are making like pivots or transitions, right? They've maybe been in a field for a number of years. They want to move into something else. And what I'm finding now, and this is almost like a product of just like the market shifting entirely and so many things, is that people who maybe originally had those motivations of, you know, my career, like work-life balance, my career, I'm not doing this because I have like these big grand ventures for myself. Like a job is a job. That's it. That, you know, maybe are now feeling differently about this because even in other places, like cost of living is going up, right? Like there are all these influences. So All like, this is all that to say that I feel like that has been the case, but I'm even noticing a shift in some other cities or, or like you said, more Midwest, South, where it feels like, oh no, now I do have to do more, right? Or I have to, I was in this job, which was, you know, something entirely different or not kind of your standard 9 to 5 kind of white collar job, but I'm feeling now that I do need to do that. So. I think that has been the case, but I do feel like I'm noticing changes around like what people are feeling the need to focus on moving forward.

Makes sense. And I know one of the things that you were— you and I were talking about before is this new trend that you're seeing pop up, and you just wrote about this in your newsletter. Um, definitely let's, let's get, let's get into that for the next few minutes.

Yeah, absolutely. So we were talking about quiet cracking, and so there was this whole trend of quiet quitting that people were seeing all over TikTok, which was just the idea that people kind of were quietly, not necessarily fully quitting their role, but like doing the bare minimum because they're working remote, there's less oversight, things like that. And now it's evolving into this idea of quiet cracking where individuals are feeling incredibly overburdened, overwhelmed, burnt out in their roles, but they're facing this very challenging job market, which makes it feel like, well, I don't necessarily have external options, but I just keep getting more thrown on my plate internally. And I really feel caught between a rock and a hard place, leading to this idea of quiet cracking, which is very natural given, given everything that I just shared, right? And kind of thinking about, okay, well, how do I manage this, right? It's not sustainable for me to feel this way. So, so what do I really do about this?

Yeah, yeah, I see it, especially right where September 2025, politics, chaos, markets, all these different things. I'm also wondering, like, when people, especially with this quiet cracking, where A lot of companies talk about culture. They talk about, right, we always, we always hire from within. But I'm finding with a lot of my intrapreneurs, those that have been working with companies and want to help it grow, is that they're not always getting A, the support, but B, the training, education, or motivation from their higher-ups to say, hey, I see you're really excelling in this. We want to position you for this role because there's still always the politics of, well, this person's in that role. And in order for you to be in that role, that person has to quit or get fired. But I'm also friends with that person. But you'd be really good at it. How, you know, how does someone navigate having one realizing that they may be in a particular role, but their skill set is geared, you know, eventually for a higher role, but they're not getting that training. But two, how do they even maybe even broach that conversation? With? Yeah, if they don't feel like their team is getting that support, they're not getting that support from there.

Yeah, it's a great question. Yeah, there's so many internal politics that go on that can make it challenging. And you know, what is the internal growth path where I am? Is it even available to me, right? And I think before you're even thinking about any of that, because that can tend to feel really overwhelming, what I always tell people to do is you want to start by just doing like a self-audit of yourself and your skill set. Because truthfully, sometimes, like you said, someone might be like, well, you're really good at this and I want you to grow. But being really good at something doesn't also necessarily mean that you're enjoying it, right? And sometimes we kind of just— again, it's the idea of going through the motions. I'm in this role, I'm going to move vertically, I'm going to become a manager, I'm going to become the director, I'm going to keep climbing. But is that even what you want to do, right? Are you pursuing something that actually feels aligned? And so before you think about any of that, It's really the process of, okay, let me reflect on my role thus far, my career thus far. What is the work that has truly engaged me the most and why? What is the work that disengages me the most and why? What are the values that are most important to me in my career, right? And when I think values, I talk, I'm saying things like, do I value creativity, collaboration, autonomy, adaptability, right? Like what are the core values, the core values that are most important to me in my career, right? Where do I operate in my zone of genius? Understanding all these things and then asking yourself, how much is all this showing up in my current role? How much of this would show up if I got to the next step, right? And really understanding that so you can make more informed decisions. Because like you're saying, maybe you do see, okay, great, this— I— the path I am on, this makes a lot of sense for me. And then it goes into, like you said before, is that path actually available to you? What does that look like? How do you start kind of having those conversations with your manager around it, right? But maybe you also notice, wow, actually, following this natural path is not going to allow me to lean into where I'm engaged and align with my values. And maybe I make more of a lateral move internally and move into an entirely different department, right? Doing all that work to make more informed decisions, because once you're equipped with that, It just makes navigating all the internal politics 100 times easier. So that's what I always think about first and foremost when you're kind of in that state and not quite sure what to do.

And I also look at it— I've done this experiment with a few clients over the years— is does the company even have that role that would fit that skill set and passion that you say you're really good at, you're— the projects you're enjoying, the core values that align with And if it doesn't, what companies do?

Right.

And over the next year or two, how can you skill yourself up that if you were to make that move to that company, that you would be able to be considered? But I think like people look at like, here are the boxes of the org chart, right? And I'm either progressing and I see this a lot in the law field especially, right? You associate and then you become right. And then you're, you know, whatever, the junior partner and then you become full-time partner. But then you're like, but I don't want to do the admin. Admin stuff. I don't want to have to worry about excess billable hours. I don't have to worry about managing a team. I just really like doing litigation, right?

Yeah.

And then, but now you're doing all the admin stuff and you have to be, you know, financially more savvy with certain things. And that may not be enjoyable and that can burn you out even though you really just love practicing law.

Right.

But I, but I also see it a lot of times that companies, I think Ray Dalio talked about this in Principles. Where he would— he had his team make like baseball cards for each of the people that are there. And it wasn't like, here's what position. It's like, what are their— what are their strengths and their weaknesses?

I love that.

But when they had a project, they took out all the baseball cards of all the players of the team. Right. And they said, okay, we're going to draft a group of people for this particular project based on the strengths and weaknesses. So it doesn't become a static, you're just in this role. And you're just— every project is coming up and you're doing the same thing over and over again. No, no, here's a new project. Who's the team that— who's the team that we need to pull from?

I love that.

In order to achieve that. And that's such a brilliant way of thinking about it. But let's just say your company is not as progressive in that mindset, right? It's, it's, does the company even know that a position like that should exist? And I would even say, how can someone have the audacity in a loving playful way, say to the management team, here's what might be missing from the company. How do we talk about creating this position?

Mm-hmm.

Even as an amplification of what I'm already doing, to see if this can cause some really powerful systemic change in our company.

Yeah. And I think in your— it's a good point, right? Because again, we were talking about like economic factors. Hiring right now is harder. Companies are being a little bit more, you know, wary of all of that. But I think like when it comes to having those conversations, what I like to tell people, because people get really uncomfortable with the idea of self-advocacy, right? And it feels like this selfish thing, and I'm going up to them and saying, I want this job or that job. What I always try to tell people is like, that is not what self-advocacy is, right? And the way that I like to think about things is a value exchange, right? Is going up to a manager and it's not, hey, I want this role, I'm really good at this. It's saying, you know, I've been thinking a lot about the work that we've been doing. I've noticed this is really where my strengths are, and ultimately this is where I feel I bring the most value. To our team, to our org, right? Is there a way that I can ensure I'm delivering the most value by being able to work on these projects, you know, more consistently, right? Or, and that whole idea, like something I talk about a lot, I'll do like workshops at organizations and companies, is if you can have a team where everybody is thinking about, okay, this is where I'm the most engaged, this is where I'm operating my zone of genius, and you have that understanding across the entire team, Well, you can then create more efficiency and productivity in how you're working and say, okay, well, Sarah is really good at this type of work. She's not as good and not as enjoying of this type of work, right? Let's make sure she's working on this and this person's working on that, right? And you can then bring that all together to ensure that number one, everyone feels more engaged in the work they're doing, which is gonna lead to way better productivity across the team. And people are leaning out of the areas that they tend to be less productive, right? So So it's thinking about that so that ultimately you can bring more value, not so that you can say, let me get ahead and let me climb the corporate ladder. It's about, here's information about how I can be more valuable. And saying that, like, I'm noticing we have an absence of this role. I know we're trying to accomplish X, Y, and Z goals. I think that if we maybe open CAD count for this or allow me to start working on this, I can help us accomplish those goals because these lean into my skills, right?

Let me be the beta tester for this. Without having to hire a whole new person. Let me spend 3 hours a week on this, whatever it may be.

Exactly. Exactly.

It's so interesting why you're saying this. I'm having a big aha, and I could be completely wrong about this, is that the same structure of these type of companies is no different of like, you're— someone's looking for a job, they're looking to fit themselves into a precise box of what the job description is, right? Without taking all these things into consideration. No different than the education system, right? We're giving you a degree set of classes and courses that you need to learn in order to fit into this old model of being out there in the world. Right?

Exactly.

And what I'm loving about the entrepreneurial space, especially our new generation of entrepreneurial space, is that it's coming much more skill set and passion-based led, also much more. Here's what I figured out, which I think is kind of what you and I bring to the table.

Yeah, similarly.

It's kind of like I'm not forgetting that I go through life the second I'm not on Zoom, right?

Right.

Right.

Right.

And here's the journey and the experiences and the aha moments that I've had. I'm not just going to give you a didactic, you know, graduate school intervention. Yeah, right. And I'm wondering if what you and I are talking about really is, can the people that are listening to this episode start thinking so differently that they can have that influence on the culture around them or decide that they only want to partner with places that allow them to have that culture around them that allows us—

100%, 100%. And I think that, again, it's sometimes I, I can hear, you know, the, the devil's advocate of, well, you know, again, this is a tough job market. I don't— it's like, it's much more of an employer's market. They have the power. And I hear all of that, and I think it makes sense, but it doesn't mean that you shouldn't be thinking about and focusing on this work. Because yes, in the short term, it might be, might be a tough job market, but the, you know, pendulum always swings back and forth. And ultimately, when you think about the companies that are going to thrive in 10, 5, 10, 15 years from now, they're going to be the companies that are thinking about these things, right? That are valuing, okay, where are your skill sets? How does the, how do those play in? That are thinking about retaining employees well and are thinking about creating that type of cohesive culture. So if you can understand those things about yourself right now, you're setting yourself up for the future and to align with companies that again, hopefully that is what we're going to see going forward because that is what millennials value. Millennials are the dominant demographic in the workforce right now. Even when you think about Gen Z, which is an entirely different generation for a multitude of reasons, but they're still very values-based, right? And all of that is very important. So that's what we're going to have to see. And it's important to start thinking about those things right now. Even in a tougher job market.

Yeah, reminds me of a story and I love sharing this because the person is such a great person. And when the aha, right, when that light switch turned on, you saw, right, the wheels, the wheels turning. But I had a client of mine that was, you know, working at a company for a bunch of years and they were like the most reliable person on that small team and was the most productive and also tried to give the most ideas to the ownership. But the ownership just like, I just want to make my money, you do your job type of thing.

Right.

So, you know, let's say they're making $19, $20 an hour and we were trying to solve a problem for— they wanted to get a down payment within the next amount of time to buy a place. So we did the math and we figured out like how much more money, like if they did it based on their salary now, it would take them 2 to 3 years. But if we brought it up even just a few dollars an hour of a new job that they would have to take the risk of leaving. But let's even if they went from $20 to $25 factoring in taxes, whatever it is.

Right.

But they went from a $5 an hour jump. We're not talking like insane here.

Right. Right.

That would get them to having that down payment in a year. Right. And we're sitting and we're looking at different jobs on Indeed at that price point. And the per— I read off a job and some of the job description. I don't think I'd like that. And then there's another one. Now that sounds like I'd be bored. Right. And we went through like 5 or 10. Then I'm like, okay, I just realized what's going on. Jason, do you love your job right now at $20 an hour? Yeah, like it's easy, like it's annoying, like I don't love it. Okay, so you're telling me you don't love your job at $20 an hour, and I'm offering you an opportunity to make $25 an hour and equally not— potentially, you don't know yet, right? But you might potentially also not like this job, right? Would you rather not like your job at $20 an hour, or would you rather not like your job at $25 an $25 an hour, right?

Right.

So if you're— for now, for the next 6 months to a year, get to that goal. If you're still going to be, I don't like my job, isn't it fair to say, wouldn't you rather like it at $25 an hour and not like it than at $20 an hour? So it's kind of like— I know it sounds so funny and cliché because—

no, but it's true.

But you should— I want you to like your job. I want you to feel like you're having impact. But if your primary goal was, how do I have more stability in my life? By owning a piece of property, right? And you're already sacrificing your well-being, your emotional well-being at a place. And it's going to be a lateral, you know, it's not going to be far worse, right? Where I'm not putting you into risk or threat. I feel like, I feel like a lot of people need to hear that message of it doesn't have to be going from $20 an hour to $70 an hour. It could be that, you know, oh, but it's not worth it because I don't know what I'm going to get. It's the knowing the devil you know versus the devil you don't know.

But 100%.

Is there other benefits? Like, how would you, you know, how would you navigate that from your perspective, you know, of helping them see, you know, whether it's a different career, whether it's a $5 or $20 increase, whether it's, hey, you've been doing this, but I'm hearing and talking to you and I'm getting to know you and you've never considered this field. And you're like, you probably wouldn't have ever thought about that, but have you thought about looking? Like, what would you—

Right.

How would you navigate that?

Going back to kind of what you're talking about with the $5 pay difference, right? And this also kind of goes back to the idea of values too. That we, as we go through life, what we value and what we deem as success changes, right? And like you said, it's okay to be in a period of your life where you're saying, ma, what is successful and what is meaningful to me right now is to be able to put a down payment on a, down on a house. And as a result of that, that is a priority over me loving my job. So for now, If I'm going to operate in this job and again, just focus on my success goal of putting down payment on a house, I am going to make more money. I might not like it as much, but right now that's what's meaningful to me. And that can evolve, right? You can then put the down payment down on a house. You can then move in and then in 2 years from now say, okay, I'm settled here. Now I want to focus on finding more alignment or more engagement in my role. And I think what happens is people like put themselves in this box of, well, if I do this, I'm like locking myself into this idea of, well, all I'm doing is pursuing money and I'm never going to love my job and my career, right? Like we think everything is so finite and that can feel really overwhelming. And it's okay to say this is what I'm valuing for now. And that can change in the future. I think just that idea of embracing that is very freeing and can, uh, expand your options like tremendously because you realize nothing is final, right? You can change.

When I see this again, as like people afraid, like, oh, I have too many jobs on my resume, or I made a move to a city for a job, I only lasted 8 months and now I got to come with my tail back to back home. Right. And yes, there is definitely a part of like honoring the embarrassment and the shame that could be around that. But also How many people never made that decision to get on a plane, pack up their place, and take that risk?

Exactly, exactly.

And lean into it from that perspective, like, wow, you had the balls and the audacity to even do that. Most people don't even have the audacity to do that. Let's talk about how'd you, how did you get there?

Exactly, exactly. I love that. And I think that, like, it goes back to something I tell my clients all the time, is that it's not about what specifically happened to you or the intricacies of it. It is about how you speak about it and how you own right? People take in your confidence. If you project confidence and security around something that has happened, they will feel the same way. If you, like you said, come back with your tail between your legs, well, I got this job and it didn't work out. And, you know, so now I'm back here. Like, if you sound insecure and you're doubting yourself about it, then of course they're going to be. But if you come in and you own it and you say, I took a job, it felt very aligned at the time. After a number of months, you know, I realized that this isn't leaning into where I bring the most value. And I I realized that this wasn't the place for me, right? Not in a disparaging way, but if you take ownership over it and you project that you are not upset or, or just, or, or unhappy about it at all, they're gonna take that energy from you. And you know, I was talking to like a client I work with who's an exiting teacher. She just started a new role and she was taking a number of months off, kind of figuring out this process and doing that. And so many people these days get worried about like career breaks or career gaps. And she said, you know what, I just started telling people I'm working with a career coach. I said I'd been in teaching for over 10 years. I decided I want to figure out what was next. I took time off. I worked with a career coach. It gave me all this support around clarity, and I did work I never done before. It's been amazing. And I've just been telling people that. And she's like, I couldn't believe the response people were giving me. They were like, that's so cool. That's awesome. I wish I could do something like that, right? She just completely owned it. And she landed a job very quickly, which is awesome. Hard for a pivoting teacher. It's a, it's a tough market for that. So it's like you just have to take ownership over your circumstances and your experiences, feel the confidence around it, which goes back to all the mindset work that you need to do first and foremost. And then people will feel confident in you in the same way.

Well, there's a level of deliberateness in what you just shared, right? It's instead of someone saying, well, I just took a regular job just to pay the bills. That I knew I was going to quit in 3 months, and I did 4 of those between now and the time that I found the job that I wanted. I took a step back and I worked with a coach. I worked with a therapist, right? I've done all these things. I took on a mentorship, you know, stuff that I don't necessarily need to put on my resume, but I really surrounded, you know, the dragon and, and covered all my bases. And I wanted to make sure that when I do put myself out there, it's going to be the right place with the right energy.

Exactly right.

So it is— it sounds like leading a little bit with vulnerability of, of here's the journey of what I'm at. But I'm also not just throwing, you know, I'm not, I'm not shooting buckshot and hoping something hits. Exactly. Much more, much more deliberate. Which, which leads me into like, right, so you started doing this and, and then you're doing a lot of media related things. So what was that like? One, when, like, was it something that you reached out to try to like get yourself in front of? Was someone that reached out to you?

Mm-hmm.

Right. How did that, how did that start for you?

Yeah, I love that question because it kind of goes into this idea of talking about like zone of genius and where you really operate and, and how things evolve over time. Because when I started this role, obviously was very focused on coaching and that idea of like the mission-driven side of things are, is still incredibly important to me. But as I've worked on the businesses that, and as it's grown, I really realized that what I actually actually really love is some of the media. I love being able to get up in front of people, and whether, you know, whether it's a podcast interview, being on TV, or being able to lead a workshop for a corporation, being able to kind of be in front of people and lean into those skills, there's something about it that's really invigorating and exciting for me. And I think when I started this, I didn't think that that's where I was going to be. Like, I really saw myself as, you know, being the coach and and that's where I'm focusing. And again, I still love that, but I've realized that I can still create that impact. I've hired a lot of coaches now who are, you know, supporting our incredible clients and I can still have that impact while then leaning into skills that really get me excited, which is kind of like the media, the visibility, the brand development, kind of like putting on my founder and CEO hat like that. I really love that. And I think it just goes to show that like, things will shift throughout your career, whether you're working for yourself, whether you're working for somebody else. And you have to embrace that and lean into that and, and, you know, be okay with that because that in itself will open up opportunities. And it's been great.

Well, that aligns very much with Michael Gerber's E-Myth, right? You have the technician, the manager, and the entrepreneur. And at the beginning stages, we're all doing everything, right?

Yeah.

Which is even why I did this with a client last week that has a a business and I'm like, send me your org chart. And they basically, you know, combined everything into one little thing. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. As if you had all of those roles filled out, even if you're doing all those roles, what does it look like? Right. All that, which is straight out of, right out of the E-Myth. That, right. For me, like, okay, so my podcast and my marketing stuff, but like podcast is a role, right? So, right. So it's still me doing the interviews, of course.

Right.

And even though I might be now doing my editing because I figured out how to do it in 12 minutes, right? Versus paying someone to do it. Like, it would still— the editor role is still a role. It's being fulfilled by me right now, right? So how do you look at, like, what you're saying is someone might be taking on something where they're, they're the technician, they're learning about it, they're doing it, they're immersed in it 40 hours a week, but then they can move up to that manager role where they're not necessarily doing that 40 hours a week of doing that specific— they're not making the cup of coffee 40 hours a week, they're managing the team And then like you said, but I'm really good at networking, I'm really good at creating content, I'm really good at this, to slowly start bringing in that team under you to replace yourself.

Exactly right.

And that becomes like a really nice circle of process because I'm sure there's going to be certain things down the road that you're doing, doing now that you love and you're like, you know what, I do want to hand this off to a team member.

Yep, exactly, exactly. And I think too, it's the— like the delegating, which obviously I think people have a lot of trouble with. And, you know, even myself, I can definitely— I want to be involved. You want to make sure it's right. So it's like, you'd be able to delegate.

Colonel's secret recipe.

Yeah, exactly. Letting go of the perfectionism, all those things. And also being— I even remember, like, I remember feeling guilty at first, not even from the delegation standpoint, but I remember saying to myself, well, I went into this to be a coach, and now I'm having other people coaching. Like, I'm abandoning my mission. What's wrong with me? Right? Like, that, oh, am I not being authentic? All those things. And I think there was like a lot of like a permission slip that needed to happen of, no, it's okay for me to want to focus and do other things. And again, I can still have an impact in the way that I want to, right? And it's okay if that, again, the idea of success changes. Like I always go back to that, like success has to evolve over time. Yeah. And if you are sticking to one thing in your career, whether this is a 9 to 5, entrepreneurship, that is a recipe for you feeling discontent and upset. And if you are feeling discontent and upset, it's it's a really good trigger to then say, okay, at this point in time in my life right now, what does success mean to me and me only? And am I doing work? Am I living in a way that's aligned with it? Or do things need to change to better align with that definition of success?

Absolutely. And there's two things I'm hearing from that. One is like, are you the product versus is the product the product, right?

Mm-hmm.

So as you built a team, you realize that yes, you're the product for what you're serving, But your business as a brand has particular products that could be replaced by other practitioners, right? By other coaches in your style, in your mission, in your core values, stuff like that as a brand representative. That— so I see it as the one-to-one, right? When you and I are having this conversation, it's a one-to-one, whether you are my client or I was your client, right? Then you have the one-to-many, right? You do groups where you're working with a team. But what I'm hearing you is that you even evolved past that and now you're in the many-to-many. You have your group of people that you're getting in front of and you're on the news or whatever it might be, and you're getting out to a large amount of people. But then that's coming back into your business. But instead of you having to handle all that, you're now sending that to the appropriate match, right?

Right.

And that person can now affect many people in that person, whether it's one-on-one with that person or in that person's company. So you're still all responsible for that. That's still under, right? That's still your, you know, under your heart and soul.

Yes.

But I do see this, especially those of us who are in that helping, you know, the challenge between helping and maybe capitalism, if we want to go that far, or making— Sure.

Yeah.

What do you mean I'm making a lot of money on this? No, no, I just want to help these people. I think that shift can still be completely in alignment with core values. And, you know, it's the Superman, Superwoman syndrome. I have to do it all versus I can build people that are in my, you know, like you can certify people in your method, right?

Right.

Exactly. Whoever's listening out there. And I'm working with someone on doing that about creating a certification course for their clinical training. Love that. And they never thought about it. And I'm like, that could be another $200,000, $300,000 a year. Plus, right, you can have practitioners who now know how to do this thing that people are flying in from all over the world to see you for.

Right. Right.

So, absolutely. So I think that's the big shift of one-to-one, one-to-many, and then empowering, inspiring, and guiding, and maybe even certifying many so that they can work with many. And it's all in your, right? It's all part of Connected. You still go back and get the credit, you know?

Absolutely. And going like to the idea of also hiring, right? And culture fit and hiring the right people. And, you know, I'm very particular about who I hire and what their values are and what's meaningful to them and, and personality, like all those things of bringing the right people into your infrastructure that, and you, in order to do that, you need to be clear on what your values are so you can find people who match that, right? So there's still like that element of you need to know yourself, what's important, what is the mission, what's meaningful to you, right? And finding people who kind of resonate and embody with that and embody that is really important.

Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm religious about core values and values-based decision-making. And I'll give every single one of my clients a worksheet with about 200 words. And I say, I'm not going to tell you what the definition is of these words. You can use the dictionary definition or you can use your own personal— what you think this means to you. But I want you to come back with your 4 to 7 core values that if I were to look at you and follow you around every day, every decision you're making is running through.

Yeah.

Core values, but also knowing what your anti-values are. What are the things that show up up that you'll absolutely not go anywhere. Like, we were talking about the contract that, you know, someone that I'm helping with their contract, and I'm like, how are you not realizing that not only is this like red flags, like this might be unethical and illegal, and you're right, and even like IRS illegal and, and maybe even labor law illegal. And you're like, yeah, but I'll talk to them about changing the contract. I'm like, yeah, like how, how many red flags does there need to be to say, you know what, this may not be worth engaging.

Yeah.

Even in the first place. It's not my responsibility to get them to run a coaching practice.

To change that. Yeah, 100%. 100%.

Yeah. Versus, you know, what do I need to do for me? And can I now take this learning experience and say down the road, maybe I do need to give a class on this. Maybe like I'm now realizing I need to work with practitioners on saying, hey guys, like I want to now do an assessment for you on your contracts with your team. And make sure you know that you're running a legitimately ethical business, but you're hiring team members, and that might not even be worth not only the toilet paper, but it may even backfire against you and put you in court.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's such an important component of all of it. And yeah, generally, you know, you can always say, oh, I can address the red flag, but the fact that the red flag's there in the first place is significant in and of itself. Right, right.

And you're still willing to pursue it. But I also see this as— and this really goes back to the core of probably what you and I are doing in an overlap— is what are, based on your life experiences, in a way that you don't even realize, that you're most uniquely positioned to help solve other people, not just because of your clinical or your didactic or your educational background, but because of your life wisdom as well. That sometimes doesn't get factored into a conversation at work?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. This is— you're asking me this question, right?

Yeah.

Um, yeah, I think that— I mean, it's funny, I feel like a lot of the time with, with coaching or whatever industry you're in, you're kind of coaching a past version or supporting a past version of yourself, right? And a lot of the clients who come to, to work with myself, with those on my team, are in this place of, again, great on paper career. You know, I've call it achieved what I want to achieve. I'm living that version of success I thought I wanted, but I still feel totally miserable, right? I am burnt out. I'm lacking confidence in myself. I'm questioning myself all the time. I feel insecure. Like I'm feeling all these things despite the fact that I've done everything right. And I've kind of come to this kind of like raising my white flag moment where this isn't working anymore. And that was me. That was exactly what I was experiencing, right? So a lot of the times, it's that life experience of being able to say to someone, I completely understand how you feel, and the validating, right? I get it. It's so normal that you would feel the way you're feeling right now, given what you have experienced. And obviously, then, like you said, I can take whatever systems and processes I've learned, what I've learned from my certifications, any of that, I can teach that to them. But just that idea of I resonate and I've been there and it's natural for you to feel the way you feel. I think that really, that speaks volumes over everything else to a degree.

Yeah. It's like, I know the way out. I'm already at the other side of that, but I've been through these experiences, which is, yeah, it's being the guide and being, uh, right. It's, uh, the Sherpa for, for, in this regards. Right.

So, exactly. Exactly.

So, so we'll wrap up with, with, with one one thing before we get into where everybody can contact you, but I have a rapid fire. Okay, you know, 4 or 5 words, okay, you know, just off the top of your head. Um, nothing that's going to throw you for a loop or curveball, I promise. Okay, so ready?

Yes, I'm ready.

All right, what's one career myth that you wish people would stop believing?

The idea that you have to choose either happiness or money.

Nice. What's the best single question to ask before accepting a new job?

Hmm. Best single question to ask before accepting a new job.

Or would it be an obvious question that one should ask during an interview process?

During an interview, there's so many questions that are, that are coming to mind. I'm trying to think of a good one. I, I would say, I mean, I would probably, probably asking, you know, what does success in this role look like in 6 months from now? Something like that to really understand. One, it kind of helps you vet and cross-check, is this a place I want to be? Like, if this is what they think success is and this is what I'm going to be focusing on, is that what I want to do? And it's just helpful for you to then be able to kind of align your answers to showcase how you'll be able to align with that version of success. So it's kind of like a good double whammy.

Nice. If someone feels stuck right now, they're listening to this episode, they're hearing these questions and they're like, I'm stuck. What's the first action they should be taking in the next 24 hours?

So that idea, what we talked about in the beginning, where am I engaged and why, and where am I disengaged and why? And you can even start kind of like a weekly journal Well, based on the work I did this week, this is what really engaged me and here's why. This is work that disengaged me and here's why. Just start with that exercise. It is so illuminating and it's an easy thing to do.

And what's the one piece of career advice you live by no matter what?

So this is— it's— while it sounds cliché, I think this is really the most important career advice. Always be building relationships and always be networking. I, I know we hear it all the time, but I think that again, I don't care if you're employed and you love your job more than anything in this world and never have any intention of leaving. The people you know will make the biggest impact in your career, and you should always be looking to facilitate and build relationships regardless of where you are. So that is one thing I always do. I always stay open to any conversation, try to meet with new people all the time. And I find that it's, it's incredibly helpful.

Awesome. So before we go, where are people finding you? Where can they get more information? I know you have podcast episodes, but you have your website, so let's, let's start there.

Yep. So I mean, my website, everything's very simple. It's elianagoldsteincoaching.com. Um, LinkedIn, I'm very active on LinkedIn, which you can just find me Eliana Goldstein. And then same thing on Instagram as well, eliana_goldstein. So keep it very, very simple. Um, you know, I always, I remember like when I first started this business, somebody had said, oh, do you want to like come up with a name? And I— and someone said that you will evolve over time, just like let your name be the brand. And I've just always stuck with that. Love it.

And I'm noticing, right, there's 3 courses that if people are like really kind of like, oh, I want to kind of delve into this, right? You have the Career Upgrade course, Salary Accelerator, and Career Clarity Finder. Can you give me a quick 15 seconds on each of those?

Absolutely. So what I will say is the Career Upgrade course encompasses both of those. So that's kind of our main course that walks through our 4-step process to find and build a career you can feel really excited about. The Career Clarity course kind of encompasses just like the first module, which is all around really gaining clarity around, you know, what is it you want to do? What I talked about before, where am I engaged, my zone of genius, understanding all those components. And then Salary Accelerator is really just all things how to negotiate your salary, how to navigate those conversations and things of that nature. But the Career Upgrade course is what encompasses all of those in one course. So that's kind of, you know, the big one.

Nice. All right. Last question.

Wasn't planning on this.

Yeah. What book's on your radar right now?

So it's, you know, it's so funny. My husband and I have this argument all the time. I am actually, because I feel like I'm always so immersed in like personal professional development at work, like I am a nonfiction girl. Like I am a very, or sorry, I'm a fiction girl.

Fiction.

I'm a fiction girl. I'm a fiction girl.

But what's the recommendation?

What's the suggestion? I'm going to forget. I just read this book called The Broken Country, which I don't remember the author's name, but it's like Reese Witherspoon's book club. That was great. I'm reading a book right now. It's called Homecoming. And I'm also going to forget the author's name. But yeah, Pillars of the Earth, which is obviously Ken Follett, like long-term, like long series. That's like one of my favorite book series ever. Um, but yeah, so those are some books that I'm reading. And then my husband actually did have me read recently Buy Back Your Time by— I believe it's Dan Martell, right?

Yes.

Yeah, so that's a good one too. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, very cool.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for hanging out. There's so much good stuff, and I want people to really like take away how simple this can be. But why— one of the missions for me having this podcast is it doesn't mean that every person listening is going to reach out to every person on the podcast, every episode to get that guidance, but at least they can get a taste of it and they can find like, okay, so I'm in this point in my career, at this point in my life or relationship, but I know that there's someone in those episodes, almost 100 episodes that could be a good fit for them to possibly work with or collaborate with or just get more information or a book or a course. So I really do want to thank you, one, for all the—

Of course.

The success that you've had and, and the continuing of helping so many more people with you.

Thank you. No, I really appreciate that. I— it's always— I love doing like this. I said I love podcasts. I love having these conversations. It's so enjoyable. And yeah, it's what, what's what gets me excited. So I appreciate it. Yeah.

And if you're listening and, you know, if it's— this episode wasn't 100% for you, which I can't imagine that there wasn't some good tidbits in here for everybody, But if you know somebody who is going through this, just forward them off the link and send them over to the website and, you know, get someone, get someone loved up in their way for what they need. So cool. All right, guys, we'll see you in the next episode.

See you.