Ep. 41- Frank Bria: Thinking Up During Today's Crisis

This is the You Winning Life podcast, your number one source for mastering a positive existence. Each episode, we'll be interviewing exceptional people, giving you empowering insights and guiding you to extraordinary outcomes. Learn from specialists in the worlds of integrative and natural wellness, spirituality, psychology, and entrepreneurship so you too can be winning life. Now here's your host, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified neuro-emotional technique practitioner, trainer and certified entrepreneur coach, Jason Wasser.

Welcome back, everybody. Today I have a really awesome guest that I've been looking forward to hanging out with for a while. It's Frank Bria. He's the founder of the High Ticket Program, and he began his entrepreneurial career in the financial technology sector, and he's worked with several startups, some selling for hundreds of millions of dollars and some crashing and burning into flames. His experience includes helping some of the largest corporations on 5 continents grow their businesses by making a real impact on their customers and turning that into a scalable offering. And now he turns that experience to the small business sector where he works with consultants, coaches, and businesses, authors to pivot away from the project-based and hourly revenue, the technician model as we're gonna get into, right? Basically trading time for money. And his clients build their businesses around products and services where you leverage your time across multiple clients, not working just with one. And the process, he helps everybody get better results. He is also the host of the Six to Seven Figure Show podcast and author of the international bestselling book, Scale: How to Grow Your Business by Working Less, and the father of 3 daughters. Frank, thank you so much for hanging out with us today.

Hey, thanks so much for being on the show. It's an honor. Awesome.

Thanks so much. So, you're out in Phoenix and you decided to leave the wonderful world of the East Coast to head out there. What got you out there from East Coast to, you know, really, nice chilled-out environment.

Yeah, right. Uh, actually, our first tech startup got me out here. So, uh, a lot of people don't think of Phoenix as kind of the tech hotspot, but we happen to have a, a tech startup that, uh, was recruiting me to run their banking sector. And so I was actually, um, back in Virginia at the time working for a bank, and, uh, they kind of dragged me out here. And I have some software background, so it was kind of a nice match. And, um, yeah, it's basically been here ever since. And It's been— it was a great place to raise the kids. They're all in college now. None of them are here anymore. But, uh, you know, once you get used to the winters here, it's really hard to go back to the east.

Very much understand. I've been to Phoenix once. I was actually at, um, uh, Arizona State. And one of the cool things was I was out there for a weekend doing a program on campus years ago, and I remember them like joking around. They're like, here's Scottsdale, and if at night you see anything blow up, it's just a meth house.

And It was like this beautiful juxtaposition, right?

This is beautiful juxtaposition, like, don't freak out, right? That's our dichotomy of Phoenix. So it's interesting to know, but like everybody I've met from there, I've always had a great, great time with. So let's go into, uh, right off the bat, your journey from where you started to where you're at now as a professional.

Yeah, yeah. So, so I actually, um, was going to be a math professor. Um, I worked on my PhD in mathematics and was teaching at college for a number of years. And I love teaching. It's so much fun. I enjoy being in the classroom. And I know most people are like, "Math, blah." But that's actually what made it really challenging for me is I'd have people come into the class and they were like, "I hate this subject." And I'm like, "All right, bring it on, man. Let's go." And it was just a lot of fun. But it wasn't— Like, I had other interests, and as a math— like, even as a mathematician, I didn't really fit the role. Like, I was a little— I, you know, my interests are a little more broad, and I, I'd always kind of wanted to do something business and, and law and accounting and other stuff. And so I wasn't really getting all of that there, um, so I went into consulting, which is typically what you do, you know, if you leave academia, right? Um, and I landed in the perfect spot. I went to Chicago and I joined a consulting firm there. And, you know, it's your mathematics, so you go into actuarial consulting because that's pretty much all you can do is— for those people who don't know what actuarial stuff is, it's, it's those folks who are like figuring out the death tables for life insurance. Like, that's the— it's, it's really, really, you know, for a lot of people it's just really awful, awful work. But, um, you know, so they have kind of a track and they, you write it straight out of school, they stick you in a desk and you start you know, uh, calculating, you know, dropping numbers into forms and stuff like that for clients. And, um, I just— I lucked out. The company that I was with was a small boutique consulting firm, and they were like, okay, you're not our typical actuary, um, you're not a typical guy we're gonna throw, uh, sort of on a desk and kind of, you know, crunch numbers. So, um, they actually put me in front of clients, and they had a software arm, um, and they were building software to do a pension administration for for benefits. And they basically were like, go, go talk to the clients and get their information and translate it for our developers. And they were— it wasn't even like, oh, we're gonna babysit you with like a partner or anything like that. They just were like, go, just go. So I was in front of Fortune 500 clients almost like by month 3, which I mean, anyone who's been in that industry knows that's like ridiculous. Ridiculous. They just don't do that. They trusted me and they let me fail a couple of times and they didn't punish me for it. They knew we were trying something new and I was in front of Fortune 500 companies like 3, 4 months out of college. It was an amazing experience. Taught me everything that I know about consulting to this day, from the way to handle clients all the way down to proofing deliverables and we put a booklet together and having having someone literally go through it page by page to make sure that every page is there and like every little thing. It was just an amazing experience. So, I started there and I, from there, went to— basically, I moved from insurance into banking. Insurance was kind of not my thing and I kind of went into banking from there, so pivoted into banking. And then, the tech startup stuff happened and like I'd mentioned, I came out to Phoenix I was recruited out for a tech startup here and grew their banking practice. We got acquired. The CEO of that company and I started another one. That moved through. We got our IP licensed by another big mortgage provider and, you know, then another one and that one crashed and another one and, you know, so it just kind of went on from there. That experience of running a couple of those tech companies, I kind of developed a specialty in that area. And so then I started to get called out consulting with other vendors and financial institutions all over the world. So it grew into a consulting practice of my own. And I was the Frank, we need you in Johannesburg in 3 days guy. Like it was all over the world and I got my million miler status on all the airlines in the United States. And, you know, a couple elite status on foreign airlines and, you know, Israeli security one time thought I was a spy because of the stamps on my passport.

So— And they have the best security. Oh, wow. I've been to Israel a bunch of times, so I know.

Yeah, it is absolutely something else. So yeah, I had this really successful consulting practice and— but I was the product, you know? I mean, if I wasn't there, it wasn't gonna work. And then one day I'm in Kiev and I'm about to meet a financial institution there. And right as I'm walking into the meeting, I find out that we have a major medical emergency with the family at home. And I did the unthinkable, the thing that everyone worries about they're gonna have to do at a meeting like this, where, you know, people have flown in from all over Eastern Europe for this meeting and we're just starting. And I stand up and say, "I'm sorry, I have to leave. I have to get to the airport right now and go home." And cancel the meeting, like, no, there's nothing anyone can do, and walk out. And of course, there's not a direct flight from Kiev to Phoenix, so it was a good 36-hour trip home to think about what I had built and that it wasn't at all what I had wanted to do when I went out on my own and started my own business. I got kids growing up, they're growing up kind of not really seeing me as much. There's this major medical thing, I can't be there. By the time I got home, a lot of that stuff had already kind of run through, you know, and we had to rely on friends and neighbors and all this other kind of stuff. And I just was like, this isn't what I want. Like, this isn't what I really wanted to do. So as things kind of calmed down a little bit, I realized I don't want to be this traveling consultant anymore. Not, you know, it's fun and exciting and it looks really glamorous, but it's actually really exhausting. Um, and it wasn't really giving me the life that I wanted to have.

Yeah.

And I realized that if I drop dead somewhere on a tarmac or something like that, that my kids can have pretty much nothing because there's nothing to sell in this business. No assets. Like, if I'm not the product, it's gone.

You're the asset.

Yeah, I'm the asset, right? And so, um, I said, okay, well, this has got to change. And so I started to go through the process of changing around what I was doing to provide service for clients. And I screwed it up. And there was no manual, no one was like, how to become, how to go from consultant to online entrepreneur. So, you know, first thing I did is I called up all my clients and said, I'm not traveling anymore. And I lost half of them overnight. And then, you know, I started to, change and deliver services online. And so I was like reading all of the stuff online people were publishing about information products and membership sites and all that kind of stuff. And so I was doing, I was trying to follow their map, but it made me look small and chintzy. Like it, you know, I went from, you know, I'm $5,000 a day to, oh, and you can get my PDF for $300. It was not the same thing. And so I lost the other half of my clients from that and started to rebuild from scratch and realize, okay, this isn't the right model. There's got to be a different model. Um, and interestingly enough, what I had been doing for my clients is helping proceduralize their services offerings. And so I was like, duh, I need to just do what I've been teaching all of them. I just didn't think it would work at such a small level, right? I was working with large corporations thinking it has to be at scale. What I realized was you can build for scale and not be at scale. That was the breakthrough. That was, "Oh, wow. Yeah, okay. I don't need like $3 million to do this. I just need a scalable offering and I need delivery mechanisms." So I started to study what people were doing, the folks who were successful, and looked at the patterns and broke it down and created the beginnings of what now is High Ticket Program. Now we work with entrepreneurs and help them make the same shift. So it's been quite a ride, but it's ended well.

Yeah, and it makes so much sense that like we were talking about pre-our conversation, how this is how we're trained to go into business, right? We go to school, we learn a specific craft, whether it's vocational, technical, whatever it may be, right? And then we go and become the technician, and I know there's a lot of people that when they stumble upon this aha moment, right? The, the whole E-Myth, Michael Gerber philosophy of entrepreneur, technician— I'm sorry, entrepreneur, manager, and technician. And they get that shift of the mindset that things radically change for them. But then there's this whole guilt of like 20-something years or 30-something years of like society mindset and pressure on top of them to do something differently that doesn't involve them being the person giving the results, right?

And, and focusing on your, you know, what you've built. I mean, there's the sunk cost philosophy, right? Where it's like, well, I mean, I heard a lot of people say, well, Frank, you're the banking expert. Like, you know, why, why are you trying to do something different? Why are you trying to change what you do? Like, you had a working model. Yeah, I mean, it was hard. And then you get all these other folks, so it's like, let's work, it's hard. Like Work is hard, you know? And all of that's really— there's just a sort of cultural pressure to sort of stay in this box that you've set for yourself. And even if the box isn't working for you, you know, stay in. And I guess it took me a while to realize that a lot of people— as is with a lot of things, I guess— a lot of people were really just giving themselves the advice. Like, they're talking from their own, you know, insecurities rather than actually trying to give you advice.

In a lot of ways, people create their own jail of the life that that they've chosen to live, blaming the environment around them, blaming their culture, their family, their schooling, their lack of whatever it might be, but they willingly chose that along the way. And I think that's one of the big things that does keep people massively stuck in those type of experiences. And I've seen that as a therapist, right? When I— no one trained us, so I graduated 2005 from graduate school, no one ever said anything about growing a practice where it involves having a whole team of people. It's the whole idea of like you having a 6-figure private practice, practice makes you a success. But I remember sitting on a panel, and that'd be like 6 years ago at least, when I was on the local association for marriage and family therapists, and it was about the private practice panel. And I remember them like, at that point, they're like, "Yeah, the 6-figure practice, the 6-figure practice." And you had people who were working for agencies, right, community mental health agencies. You had some people maybe who were dipping their toe into private practice after hours, and you had some people who were fully, right, they made it when they leave the agency world and now they're a real therapist. And they're just talking about this 6-figure private practice, and I'm like, I'm not making six figures. My business might be making six figures. I'm not taking home six figures, right? So all this time, effort, and energy that I'm spending to build this practice or build this company or build this business, I'm still getting paid no differently than someone working at an agency or someone even working at Starbucks, right, at that time. And I don't have to worry about, you know, paying the bills at Starbucks. Here I have to worry about paying the bills and mopping and answering the phones. And so I want people to understand how powerful how powerful this concept is that you're helping people create in their lives. Because my side is, let me help you get out of it psychologically to see what you can do. And then you're the perfect person for them to go to, right? So then now what are the multiple platforms in which you can put it out there? Where would you say is like the first step that someone psychologically, from your perspective, psychologically, mentally, mindset, whatever you want to call it, that they have to to adjust or shift, to start looking at things from no longer being this, I'm the technician, everything's built around me, and here's how I reproduce and replicate how, what I can do for multiple people.

Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of books you talked about, E-Myth, you know, there's, there's a lot of writing around what goes into, you know, being a manager of a, of a larger organization. I mean, our motto at High Ticket Program is 6-figure practice to 7-figure enterprise. That's our motto. Auto. So there's a lot of discussion around how, how you get there and how you have to kind of let go and be the leader and bring other people in and trust and all that stuff. So, but, but there's a lot missing out of that, and I want to touch on that one thing. Um, before you can even get to that place where you start thinking about managing and letting go and all of the stuff that it takes to become a CEO, um, I think there's this one thing that is in there first. We, I think, as, as people, as human beings, have a tendency when we're in a position of stress or fear to think down rather than to think up. So there's this, you know, I'm panicked about my business, lower prices, right? I'm panicked, I'm not sure where the money's going to come from, open up the net to wider, you know, to take in people I don't want to take. Like, there's this movement of fear down. Like, we have to push beyond that. Like, The best thing that we can do is to start honing in, focusing, and thinking up. I kind of like it. I wrote a blog post a few years back, and I resurrected it a couple of weeks ago because I think it's apropos. There's this analogy between airline or like a plane pilot, like pilots who are flying a plane, right? If you stall, which means that the airflow over the wing isn't fast enough to keep the plane in the air anymore, the pilot has two choices. They can pull back on the stick. To go higher, or they can push down, push in, to have the plane actually point down to the ground. And, um, you know, you're in a plane that's about to crash, you, you have a bit of a tendency to want to like stay away from the ground. And so, uh, the pilots have like this instinct to kind of keep away from the ground, and so they'll pull back, which actually keeps the plane going up higher. But that's actually the exact wrong thing to do because it actually reduces the airspeed over the wings and causes the plane to stall even further. What the pilot has to do is exactly the opposite of their instinct, and that is to point the plane towards the ground to speed the airflow over the wings. A lot of airline pilots make this mistake, and there are crashes. Planes crash because of this mistake. It's perfectly applicable to us as entrepreneurs. When we're in a tough spot or we have to make a change, we want to stay away from the ground. We want to crash, and so we do things we think are safe that are going to keep us away. We stop spending money. We lower our prices. We open up the aperture of our marketing to everybody. But those things actually lower the airspeed over our wings. They make us less efficient, less effective, less attractive. What we have to do is the exact opposite. The first thing I think anyone has to do when they move from practitioner to entrepreneur is to start thinking about themselves as the prize, as the valuable entity that they are. Raise your price and focus in on the clients that you really want to work with and understand that there are people here in this world you're not meant to serve, and that's cool. That's actually a part of understanding your target market and your value proposition. But until we can do that, until we can resist this temptation to think down, we're going to have a hard time building anything up because the very first thing I ask our clients to do is to raise their prices, sometimes double double, triple, and immediately it's deer in the headlights, right? Because that's not what they think they need to do right now.

Right.

And there's a fear, there's a fear of lack and someone's gonna get rejected.

Yep, exactly. Yeah. So that's the, that's what I would say would be the, you know, there's, again, there's tons of writing about letting go and being the manager and, you know, understanding that you need to trust other people and all that stuff. But to me, this feels like the thing that's missing. It doesn't get talked about a lot.

Yeah. And I think right now, especially with what's going on with the pandemic around us, that people are A, rightfully freaking out, right? Let's first acknowledge that we have the right to freak out in this scenario.

Totally.

Number 2, after we do our freak out, then my, my thing that I've been giving, and I've been doing a lot of online workshops for young professionals specifically, uh, in addition to talking to my clients, my therapy and my coaching clients, is what's your pivot, right? If you're now seeing why just being a direct service worker, whether you're whether you're a teacher or whether you have a restaurant or whether you're a personal trainer, why it's so important to have the pivot of how— what are the 15 different ways that I can be producing income during this time? But you can also see that when you are the prize and you are the only service that can be provided and it can only be offered in person with a person in front of you, how we're screwing ourselves and limiting our possibilities and capabilities. But I think one of the hidden blessings out of this time period is that people are going to be forced to radically think differently, right? So for my practice, I have long wanted to be online, but never really presented it to my clients. And I kind of dropped hints here and there, like, you know, one day, like, maybe I won't live in Florida, you know, and would you still want to see me, right, as long as I keep my license for therapy in Florida? And they're like, yeah, of course I would want to do that online. But then they're like, but that's a long time away, right? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, you know, I'm not going anywhere for now. Within the span of like 2 weeks ago, right, I was in Asheville, North Carolina with my buddy Pablo. We were doing a retreat for some entrepreneurs up in Asheville. I had to come home on Sunday, and within 3 hours, I had to send an email to all my clients saying, "This is not a possibility. This is what's happening." I languaged it in a way where it wasn't, "Would you like to do this?" It was, "This is what I'm doing." You will be receiving— here's the link for you to sign on at the time of your session as if— and I gave them the whole setup as if they were coming to my office. Yeah, here are the new rules. In other words, all the rebuttals were put in there, all of the— so I really had to be strategic about it. And I see how many other people now in like Facebook groups, especially in therapy groups, like, oh, I'm still seeing a few clients in my office, how do I get them to come to me online? And people are afraid of making that jump to doing something different, whether it's pivoting online right now or creating a new product for them to sell. Right.

And I think some of that fear is based in this idea that somehow online or virtual or group or leveraged or scalable is less. And so it's like, well, I don't want to let my clients down. But in fact, what I'll tell you is that we'll just take coaching as an example because as part of what we do at High Ticket Program, we worked with with dozens and dozens of coaches. One of the things that we found is a really well-executed group coaching program is more effective than one-on-one coaching. And the reason— and again, it can't be if you just are lazy about it and you're like, "Oh, we're just going to do this online." No, you have to design it. But here's what happens in groups. We know this from— we know this from like their group therapy programs, there's group educational programs. We know that human beings in the right dynamic in a group get actually more out of the experience than they do one-on-one. We have group coaching programs that introduce this idea of having a mix of people with different experience levels in the group and participating actively where they're helping each other. Again, learning theory, we know this. If I teach a principle to a client, that's one thing. If they do that principle, it's another thing. If they then teach that principle back to somebody else because it's part of the interaction routine Well, then we've really nailed it, right? I mean, that becomes much more effective. We see it in corporate consulting work as well. One of the clients that we work with, they're a software company, a large software company that does workforce planning for diverse locations. They have to fly their people out to do workforce planning on-site. Well, they're not flying out right now. No one's traveling. We worked with them about, "Okay, so how is this going to shift? How does onboarding and implementation and support, how does that all shift?" Well, one of the big shifts they made, I mean, they made a ton of them, but one really interesting one is they used to have sort of checklists for implementation that their consultants would go out and do. Okay, they're going to walk their clients through, "Well, let's go through, like, has this been done? Has this been done? Has this been done?" Well, those checklists are now self-checklists because they have to give them to their client. Well, they are far more engaging, far more effective as self-assessments than they ever were as clipboard-carrying consultants. This shift to a virtual, this shift to scalable and leveraged, it can actually be and is often a good thing when it's designed correctly. Again, I think there's this fear that, "Oh, if I do this, I'm cheating my clients." I'm giving them less. There's nothing better I can do for them than to give them my time. And it's that mindset that is keeping us trapped.

Yeah, completely agree. And I know that one of the most challenging, and positively challenging part of group, let me preface it that way, is that there also becomes accountability, not just to the person facilitating the group, but there also becomes accountability to each other as peers.

Right.

Because especially if there's a theme in the group, right? And it doesn't matter even if it's coaching, not coaching, whatever industry. I think on a macro level, if you bring together people over a shared theme, then it doesn't matter where they're at in that, but they're going to want to be accountable to each other, but they're also not going to want to do less work than the other people. Right. So there is more of a buy-in, there is more of a longitudinal effect that I'm going to stick it out because I don't want to just disappear because what my what might people think, which is a little bit of a psychological trick in that regards. But people do, based on, right, like the research you're showing and talking about, they want to be able to show that they're handling this, that they're doing this, that they're showing up and they're doing the work, and they don't want to disappoint someone else, even if they have no accountability to them at the end of the day.

Right. Well, it's a behavioral economics thing. So this is one of the reasons why masterminds are so effective. And by mastermind, I mean a real mastermind. A lot of people are like, I wrote a book and I'm going to have a mastermind. Mastermind and they don't really know what they're talking about. I'm talking about a true mastermind, which is like a group of people who come together to help each other accomplish a particular goal. And it's facilitated by someone, but that facilitator is not the guru. They're not the one who is teaching one. They're kind of all keeping each other accountable. Well, behavioral economics tells us that, um, if I'm, if I hire you, Jason Wasser, and you ask me to do something, I'm going to be less less concerned about disappointing you because I pay you. You're kind of my employee. So if I don't do it, it's like, it's okay because I'm the boss. But in a group setting where you're not paying each other, that level of accountability is higher. This feeling of, well, I don't want to— these are my peers. So there isn't that economic factor to play in. It's bizarre. It's backwards. But it's a behavioral economics thing that is kind of interesting. Dynamic that—

I think that shared experience, right? The, again, if you're creating a group out there and if you're someone like— I know one of the communities that I was in, they're talking about what do I do to pivot my business shutdown. And I was looking through their list of qualifications and I'm like, have you thought about doing this online but for the first 30 days offering it for free? Create a lot of value. And the first thought was like, no, but I have to make money. I'm like, yeah, but people don't know that you do this outside of your little circles. So, you know, it's that Gary Vee, right? Jab, jab, jab, right hook type of Create tons and tons and tons of value and then make your ask. And you can say this, right? I'm gonna be doing this for 30 days free. After that, and you can put it out there upfront, right? Afterwards, I will be asking for X, Y, and Z, but I want you to come experience what this is like. And it's gonna be no different whether you're paying now or you're getting it for free now, but in 30 days I will be charging. But I want you to come experience this with me and I wanna give you this result, right? And you can have a massive result. You might not need me in 30 days, but that's even better of a testimonial, right? I want people out there to hear this, that don't be afraid, especially right now, to have a short-term offering where you're creating a tremendous amount of value. And I think like what you just said about mastermind, like the clichéness or the overuse of the word mastermind, like there's a few buzzwords that, you know, like CEO, just because you opened, you're doing something like you're doing social media marketing or you're doing this, doesn't make you a CEO, right? Let's see, you and I know that because we've worked in, right, in larger companies and corporations, but I don't consider myself the CEO of my business because I'm also providing therapy and coaching. So, the CEO doesn't do that at the micro level. So I'm the founder and owner of my company, but I wouldn't ever call myself the CEO of my company 'cause it's not, right? And the whole thing like a mastermind, I agreed, right? It's a specific accountability on a specific goal that everybody is like-minded about and working in the same direction unified and everybody's able to call each other out or see blind spots for each other, but it's very, very, very specific. And I think the third thing was the concept of value. I think that word right now is like, how many times, especially right, you're being on social media, on a podcast, and in the entrepreneur circles, that word value has become like the Lululemon of yoga pants, right? If you wear Lululemon, all of a sudden you're a yogi, right? So the word value I think has become, and I joke around with my buddy Pat Hilton about that, He has his value flakes. It's like Frosted Flakes, but he put value flakes on it. We both make fun of like, "Oh, I'm going to provide them a tremendous amount of value." How can we really— I mean, again, I'm being tongue-in-cheek about this, but there's something beyond value that we need to offer. For me, I think it's integrity. I think it's actually something that does solve a problem, and it's very clearly expressed on how you can help them do that.

Absolutely. That, that is the key. I mean, um, one of the things that sort of underlies everything that you talked about is we have to identify a tangible, relevant outcome that our client actually cares about, right? So we can dump the word value and still be talking about an outcome. One of the things that we, we talk with our clients is, what is the 6-figure problem you're solving? What is the 7-figure problem you're solving? And we, and we, we articulate it that way because we want to push people, right? So we say like, what does your client have at the end of working with them that they didn't have before? And a lot of people who are in the coaching space or in the soft skills space, they get concerned about this because again, they think about, well, it's value. And so we get, great, articulate the value. And so the very first thing that comes out of their mouth is, when my client's done working with me, they will have clarity around— and I go, stop. Stop. Clarity is not an outcome. They can't do anything with clarity. Clarity doesn't help them at all. Clarity helps them take the next step, but clarity is not an outcome. So, you know, look, there's 4 reasons why people buy stuff in this world. Literally, they want to make money, they want to save money, they want to stay out of jail, or they want to have a better life.

That's it. That's it.

So you got to align what it is you're doing with one of those 4 things. And figure it out. But if you stop too soon, if your value proposition, if your value is, "Wow, they really come out of a conversation with me clear on their next steps," that's not good enough. Is it a plan? Are they taking the next steps? When are they taking the steps? Have they taken the steps with you? So, one of the things we do when clients tell us, "Well, I don't think I solve a 6-figure problem. I think I solve a 5-figure problem or maybe even a 4-figure problem," we're like, That means we just have to expand the window of how you're engaging, right? You start asking your questions, "What do people do before they hire me? What do they do after they hire me? How do I wrap my arms around that entire thing?" Social media marketing is a classic example. I post Instagram folks for people. I manage people's Instagram accounts. Great, but they're not waking up at 2 o'clock in the morning thinking, oh my gosh, if I could just have an amazing Instagram account. They're thinking, where are the clients coming from, right? And so what are you doing as the Instagram poster person to facilitate the thing that your client really cares about? And most practitioners are stuck as one cog in an overall value chain. And so the first thing that we have to do is break ourselves out of that cog and become the value chain, like own it. That doesn't mean we have to do it all ourselves. We can find strategic partners. We can find vendors that we trust, etc. But we have to be seen as the one-stop shop for the thing our clients really care about, like what they're really waking up at 2 o'clock in the morning worrying about.

Yeah. It really hits home because I had this conversation yesterday with a client where they had the aha moment.

In our call.

Then I'm like, "Okay, so now you got that. Therefore, what?" Yeah. Right? They answered. I'm like, "Great. So therefore, what?" Right? I did that probably 5 or 6 times. I'm like, "By the way, you're going to get really annoyed at me in the next few minutes because you know what the next question is going to be," until we finally hit that wall. That's where we need to go. I'm finding that so many people out there are afraid to ask the therefore what, or that next question. And I see it in business, but I also see it in relationships and dating where you're experiencing something or you're hoping that there's going to be an outcome. And then the person's like, okay, good. I got that. And then they don't clarify and get through, okay, so now what do I do with that? What do I want to do with that? What's the result I want to have? And it's so interesting how, and I try I truly believe this, that entrepreneurship is a platform for personal development and for reaching purpose.

Absolutely.

Right?

Totally.

But I see the same patterns. What's that phrase? As you do something is as you do everything, right? So, the people's patterns, all of our patterns will show up. And when I ask a client when they're stuck, whether it's a business coaching client or a therapy client, I'm like, "And where is this showing up in the same pattern in another aspect of your life that has nothing to do with this?" And they're just like, "I don't know what you're talking about. I'm fine over there." And I'm like, "Okay, so are you telling me you've never done this?" And I macro, right, the lens out about that pattern and then apply it to there. And they're like, "Oh, shit." You know? I'm like, "Okay, now we can get to the nitty-gritty." Right, right.

Exactly.

That's where the fun really starts to happen. Because I call myself a pattern person. I'm very good at identifying patterns, both in your behavior but also very much in language, how you talk about the problem, is more the problem than the problem itself.

Yeah.

Right? And I think what you're saying about like the social media, that cog in the wheel, how fun is it for you to find that spot? Like, it's like developmental stages of a child, right? You know this as a parent. Like, you know, like at developmental stages, there's gonna be certain things that they're gonna get stuck at.

Yeah.

Are you able to identify based on where they're at in their their professional identity career, whether it's like they've been working for corporate America for 20 years and now they're doing something on their own, or they've been a solopreneur, right? They've been trying to go at it alone in their own business, that there's developmental stages for different things?

Yeah. I mean, the very first problem we tackle is, you know, what's your— what 6-figure, 7-figure problem are you trying to solve for your client? That feels like psychology, which I'm not adept at. I tell people I'm not a coach, I'm a consultant, but I can play one on TV. A lot of my clients, this is the work we have to do. There's so much head trash around actually stepping out and doing something and being of value. It's not just fear that I'm not going to— I don't have it in me. It's fear of disappointing the client. It's fear of like standing in service to the client and saying, I commit that if you hire me, I'm gonna get you where you want to go. And this I think is missing from so many service businesses. They're especially in the like business coaching space. One of the biggest problems I see is a lack of accountability to the client to deliver the outcome, right? It's like, well, I teach you, if you don't do it, not my problem, that's your problem. Well, that's bogus.

That's BS.

It is my responsibility actually to hold you accountable and give you the support mechanisms to do it. I mean, of course it's hard. If it was easy, you wouldn't need a coach. You know, like a coach doesn't just stand on the sidelines and go, "Oh, well, you're not running, so I'm just going to run the stopwatch and see kind of how long you stay there at the starting blocks." That's not what a coach does. So we just, we've lost this, hey, I commit to you as my client that we're gonna get there. This is the outcome, and I have built all of the support infrastructure you need to get there. Skills, accountability, and mentorship, all of it. Not just skills, don't just watch a course, that's not enough. Like, it's one of those things where we just have to go that extra step. To stand in service. And yeah, it's scary. Of course, it's scary. You're putting yourself out there. It's a position of vulnerability. So, from a developmental standpoint, the first thing we have to do is just get them through that phase of, "No, you need to be committed to this concept and it's going to be—" You say— One of the things I love you say because I say it all the time is that entrepreneurship is about a personal development process. You cannot build a business without going through personal development. Personal development process. It's impossible and it's hard and it's painful. And a lot of times I'll have conversations with my clients where they're like, "Yeah, I don't know, Frank. This just kind of doesn't feel like me, what you're asking me to do. It's like not really my style." And I'm like, "Yeah." I'm not that type of guy, right? Right. Because I'm like, "Yeah, because when you came here, you were making $5,000 a month and now you're making $50,000 a month. So yeah, it isn't your style." Like, did you think it was? It's not.

Of course you're going to change.

Of course it's going to hurt. Like, that's the way it goes. But yeah, it is a completely development process. There's absolute development phases to it.

So what would you say to the people out there, right? Because obviously at the end of the day, there's two fear factors when it comes to what my coach Rick Sappio calls the Superman or Superwoman syndrome. I got to do it all by myself. I can't trust anybody with the secret recipe, and if I do and I empower them, they're just gonna go off and start their own thing. So that's one big fear factor. When they're bringing in associates or employees under them to build their business, is that they're gonna, at one level, maybe get screwed out of proprietary information. But the other side is, how do I know that the money that I'm gonna be investing in this will 100%, without a doubt, get me the results in return to the amount that I put into it.

Yeah, so, so there's a couple of things there. The first one's a trust issue, um, and, um, you know, there's, there's two ways to attack that, right? One is a, as a therapy and counseling thing around trust, which I'm not going to touch because it's not my area of expertise, but there are definitely— now you know who to send them to. Yeah, yeah, go to Jason Wasser. Jason Wasser will work with you. There are definitely people who have, you know, a past or baggage or youth or whatever where trust is like seriously something that needs to be worked through. That, I mean, a lot of us, a lot of us have that. But there's another thing which isn't really about emotional baggage, it's more about mindset or perspective. And I liken it to the same conversation I have with founders of companies that have to go get funding. Funding, right? So, um, I have a company, it's doing okay, but I need, you know, $5 million to grow the company. And I, and I've been in this spot because I've gone and asked for $6 million to start a company, so I know how it goes. And of course, the people who are willing to give you the money, if you have a good enough idea, and they want to take a part of the company as part of that, right? They're investing, so they're going to take part of the company. So I've seen so many founders who get stuck exactly at this spot where they get past the hard The hard part is getting someone to give you the money. That's the hard part. Okay? Once they offer to give you money and they got a term sheet and they're looking at a term sheet and they're like, "Oh, wait, how much do you want? You want 40% of my business? Oh, wow. Like, that's a lot of my business for this money." And I'm like, "What are you, insane? Like, you don't have a business. You're making like $200,000 a year and you got someone who's going to give you $5 million to grow something." They want 40%. Well, duh. Like, the moment you take their money, you're suddenly— you own 60% of a $5 million business. Like, you don't— you didn't have that before, you know? But people get stuck there. They get stuck at the spot of like, I don't want to give it away. But you have to realize that you do have to give it away to grow. Like, you do have to split it up, and that does mean bringing people in. That means taking a risk. You absolutely are going to hire someone who screws you one day. It is going to happen. It's just part of how it works. Yeah, I almost never hire someone who's not an entrepreneur or has a side project. Even folks who do administrative stuff for me, I ask them, "What do you do on the weekends? What's your side hustle?" I want people motivated that way. Does that mean they're more likely to leave to start their own thing? Probably, but I get way more benefit from the time they're with me. Me than someone who is watching the clock and punching their time clock while they're working.

It's a mindset thing, right? I think— Totally is. Right. And I'm wondering, as I'm thinking about it, of all the years that I've been doing this, that people have the tendency to be very binary. Either A, I'm a control freak, or B, I'm so not a control freak. Right. But that example that you just gave about the $5 million contract and having to pay a percentage really would will show how much of a control freak, right? And I'm using that in playful terms, right? How much of a control freak they actually might be because I always say, "Listen, right now you have a $0 business and would you rather have 60% of a $5 million business or would you rather have 0% of a $0 business?" Right? Exactly the way you were saying it and people really, 'cause again, we're trained to be, if it's mine, I'll pay you out of the pot once it comes in. In, and then, right, whatever's left over is mine anyway. But you're gonna make so much more money if you have those right partners, the trustable investors, stuff like that, where everything is very clear and everything's very, you know, the terms are very, very authentic and integrity-based and legally based. You're gonna get way more out of that investment than you would trying to go at it yourself and like, nope, I'm just gonna, I'll be fine. I'm just I'm just gonna suck it up and I'm gonna be stuck at $80,000 because I don't want anybody to make any percentage off of me.

I'm the one who did the work. It's interesting because I always joke like there are no Fortune 500 one-man shows, you know? But actually, if you look at the census data in the United States, because we did this analysis a couple of years ago, it's really fascinating. In the service business industry, the one-man shops, they top out somewhere between $200,000 and $400,000 a year. That's it. Now, some people might be listening and going, "Wow, if I can make $400,000 a year, that's amazing." No, that's the ceiling. That's it. There's no more. That's not selling a product.

That's selling you as a product.

That's a service. Yeah, you as the product. So, there's a natural ceiling to this business model. It doesn't grow. It's not like if you're just smart enough or good enough or talented enough that you can somehow make it. That's one of the reasons why we say. 6-figure practice to 7-figure enterprise because you can't make it to 7 figures on that business model. You have to change. There's no choice. You won't get there from here. You've got to change what you're doing to get there.

Yeah. What would you say is the average timeline from someone saying, "Okay, man, I love it. I love what you're saying. I love what you're doing." You have proof of concept, which is obviously the most important thing, right, to convince someone to want to do it with you, to partner with you. What would you say is like the average timeline of someone who has something that's successful, they're doing well, maybe they're at that like cusp of like 6-figure business, maybe they're in the mid-range of 6 figures, right, of $150,000, and they want to go now to that $300,000 range? Like what would be that timeframe you would say like, listen, like be patient, it's not gonna happen overnight. You might actually see a little bit of a decrease at first. Don't freak out, right? Which I'm assuming could happen. Here's what— but here's the average of what my clients see. Like, what would you say to that person?

Um, so, uh, I'll give you the standard consulting answer, which is it depends. But I'll give you— I'll give you some guidelines that we see. The hardest thing is actually getting from 0 to around 200 $100,000. That's the hard part. There's so much, you know, blood, sweat, and tears that goes into that. It's a lot of elbow grease. That is, you know, proving out the model and making sure you've got something worth. Once you're at sort of that, you know, call it $200,000 plus or minus, it's about a 2-year journey to 7 figures. And once you're at about $200,000, it's a fairly standard journey. And again, things are different. It's going to be easier if you're an IT professional that works with mid-sized companies than if you're a pet massage expert. It's a harder switch, right? We're going to have to pivot business model. We're going to have to pivot value proposition. All of that stuff has to happen, but it's easier if you have a higher-valued service. Generally speaking, because we typically work with the B2B folks, consultants, that's kind of our bread and butter. The principles work broadly across the board, but B2B is an easier task. We actually see that as long as you get that value proposition right, your prices actually can go up almost instantly. We don't see a dip in that case. If you are B2C, Like, let's say for example that you, like, you're a personal trainer and you like go into a gym all the time and it really is your physical time. That's like you're sitting in the gym trying to land clients in the gym or something like that. Then yeah, you might see a slight dip because you're going to have to pull back on that time to invest in, um, in building something else. But generally speaking, uh, if you have that 6-figure, 7-figure problem, right, we're usually raising prices for folks. I don't, um, I'm trying to think if we— we've never lowered the price for anyone, but we, you know, we'll typically double their prices almost out of the chute.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense because I think that if you're devaluing yourself off the bat, then you're never gonna— yeah, where you want to go. I remember my dad told me this story. He had a buddy of his that he grew up with from Scranton, and I think the guy moved to Texas. He became a psychologist. And my dad told me the story that when he first opened in his practice, he found the therapist in that area who charged the most, moved into their building, and charged $10 more an hour than they did. And I'm like, thinking about this, my dad told me this when I started my practice, and I'm like, okay. And then like, well, so what did he say when people called? He goes, well, I'm better. You know, it's like, well, that person has been working for this many years. He goes, yeah, but I have newer education. I have more, right? I have more, I have the cutting edge stuff. That guy's been doing the same stuff for 20 years. Yeah, right. It's all, it's all a pivot.

It really is. It's the mindset. It really is. I mean, it starts with mindset. It really does help if you've got— some people are naturally good at positioning themselves, but I think most of us suffer from the cobbler's kid have no shoes kind of, uh, approach. We can— we're really good at giving advice and giving, you know, to other people, but we don't take our own advice. And that's true even for me. I mean, I've sat around plenty of times going, I'm not really sure what what kind of product I should build. People are like, "Frank, you're the product guy. What's your problem?" We all kind of need an outside perspective. It's useful to have someone that you're soundboarding off of who can say— I mean, you get this because you're a therapist, so it's always good to have that outside person to go, "Okay, let me reflect back what you just said to me and see if it makes sense, if it's what you thought you were saying." That's true even in business with business value propositions and formulating how things are going to work. I'm a fan of validation. Like, you know, when you're in a service business and you're trying to adjust what you do, I don't like the digital marketing model that's happened because it keeps people from talking to each other. I'm like, just pick up the phone and like say, hey, I've got an idea. Like, I want to run you through my idea. Like, do you think it makes sense? Like, instead we're like, oh no, put up a landing page and drive paid traffic to it and see if anyone signs up. I just, it loses all of that ability to get that feedback.

Well, it's also like, you know, the douchebaggery of what we call entrepreneurship at this point. And I really have no embarrassment in calling that out, right? Living in South Florida, I think I feel like I'm partially in the epicenter of it with some of the things that are going on here. You're a little bit more buffered in being in, you know.

Oh, LA's close enough. LA's close enough.

Right, right, right. But at least they're like, when they're saying like, "I'm a health coach," they're actually living the life, right? And they're actually like paying for their $13 4-ounce juices and their $60 yoga classes, but they're actually going to the classes even though they don't really have a client that they can't, whatever. But they're living the life, right? At least a little bit more than I would say they are in Miami. Here it's just like the glitz and the glamour of it. And everybody's rising and grinding. The experience that I've had over the years as being the mindset, and I share this experience a lot with people, is that I was the therapist and the healer. I wasn't a businessperson or entrepreneur. I ran away from my family's third-generation furniture business because, you know, I have to help people. I have to do good. Not that my family's not, and they're great, and they're wonderful, and they're making people happy on a daily basis by creating a warm and loving and inviting space for them to live in, right? But I didn't see that as a particular value. In my own emotionality, in my own skill set. So when I first heard this word entrepreneur years ago and my buddy invited me to this business conference, I was like, "Oh no, I'm not going. I'm not an entrepreneur. I'm a therapist. Therapy isn't entrepreneurship." And so I went to that weekend retreat and fell in love with it and realized I truly am an entrepreneur. And the way that I was trained as a therapist is a systemic relational dynamic perspective of, you know, We're not looking at a diagnosis, we're not looking at pathology, we're looking at a pattern of interactions between you and whatever you're in dynamic with. And that could be a business, right? So, I want people out there to really take this concept of what you're saying, what I'm saying, and the theme of everything is we do need help. We do need to go get the resources and the expertise from someone else out there. Coach Michael Burt always says this, he's like, "You can't see the You can't see the picture when you're inside the frame. Right. So you don't know if you're a Monet or a Picasso because you're inside of it. Right. And someone like you and I can help them really see not only that you're this really amazing, beautiful product that you can have, but here's the 15, 20 different ways it can be serviced, right? And created and crafted. And I want people out there to really hear that, like right now, especially with what's going on, you might have some ideas out in your brain that you've been thinking about. Out that you never would have thought about doing, but now you got to get creative. And I know like this has been going around, like one of the memes that has been going around is like the last recession, what Uber and Lyft and Airbnb and Venmo and all these other companies came out of the last recession.

Right. That's innovation. And it's really helpful. It's always really helpful to have, you know, that outside perspective, just like you talked about. And I like the way you framed it, no pun intended. The picture analogy is brilliant. The other thing though is, I find, and this is the fun part for me, like the most fun part is that initial conversation I have with a new client who I'm like, well, have you thought about this, this, this, like you could do this, and their eyes just like wide open, like I never even thought was possible. Because I mean, I don't come by these gray hairs on my side. If you're watching the video, like, you know, I didn't get them for free, I've seen a lot of stuff. So I've probably seen the business model, I know how it works, I know where it's gonna go south. Like, just even in High Ticket Program alone, we've worked with, you know, 60, 65, 70 different really successful entrepreneurial programs, and we've seen them crash, we've seen them succeed, like we know what the best practices are. So oftentimes it just takes someone else going, "Oh, did you know that you have A and B and you can actually plug A and B together and get this amazing thing?" And it's like, "No, I didn't even know that was possible. So sometimes it just takes that experience of seeing a number of different business models. That's the fun part for me. The fun part is like opening up this wide— I'll give you a quick example if we've got time. So one of my clients was a dietitian. So she's doing $50 an hour, you know, like diet elimination. She works with IBS with women, you know. So it's like, well, are you eating, you know, are you eating fats? Are you eating— like, what And so the biggest problem she had was people kept asking her like, "Do you take health insurance?" It's like, "Ah, no, I don't take insurance." So when we started talking and we realized that she really wants to work with these women and it's— yes, she wants them to get healthy because she wants them to get back out in the world because the women who really suffer from severe IBS, they're like locked up in their house. You're tied to the bathroom basically. Again, if you go to the people who have the biggest pain point, she identified those as, "Look, these are women who are losing 5 to 10 hours a week because of their symptoms, right? You can pay that back when you get the time back for women who are entrepreneurs, right? Because when they get that time back, they can reinvest that time and it's actual money." She's like, "But I'm not a business coach. I'm a dietitian." I'm like, "That's okay. It doesn't have to be. We together crafted this program where she basically said, "Listen, if you're not losing 5 to 10 hours a week to IBS, I'm not your person. Go hire someone for like $10 an hour to go do an elimination diet to get that little, mm, that tummy pain to go away. I deal with the serious, serious issues." If you're a female entrepreneur who deals with this, I am going to put you in a group with other female entrepreneurs. I am going to work with you to get 5 to 10 hours a week back, and then you guys are going to work together as a mastermind to figure out how to reinvest that time. She went from $50 an hour to $10,000 a year on that program because you're combining business models you didn't even think were possible, right? No, and no one's gonna ask you if you take health insurance on a $10,000 program like that. Yeah, that's the fun part. That's the fun part for me.

Well, and if you think about that, right, that number of $10,000 a year, if you multiply, if you divide that by 12, you know, you're really talking about something that where people are saying it's a long-term investment. Yeah. And in order for this to happen, you know, I love it when people call me and they're like, well, how many sessions do you think it's going to take for us to solve this problem? Right. And, you know, I'm like, listen, my hope is that you fire me as soon as possible. Possible, and you refer all your friends to me because that's how my business grows. But it could take 3 sessions, it could take 90 days, it could take 6 years. It really depends on— and it's those people that when I have my intake forms and I say, is there anything else that you need to know? There's a big blank spot on the intake forms. Is there anything else that you think I need to know that might not even be relevant that could help, right? That in a way that I can help you. And they, right, a lot of times they'll just like, nope, they'll leave it blank or whatever. 8 sessions in, which is like 2 months in, they're like, oh, by the way, such and such happened. Yeah, right. Whether it's an infidelity, whether it's a trauma, whether it's— right. Or, or, you know, and I'm like, if you only told me that session 1, you would have been done already.

It's kind of big.

Yeah, yeah, right.

It's kind of, kind of a big deal.

Like, you know, like, you know, did I— did I do something wrong that I didn't, you know, bring you— bring, you know, allow you to bring that up? I'm like, "Oh no, no, no, I just didn't think it was relevant," right? Or whatever other story, but like you can see how stuck we all are in our own stories. And that's why I'm a big fan of, right, my belief is that, and this is the theme of my podcast, is that there are 4 pillars in order to be a successfully full-rounded human being, and that's psychology and mindset, spirituality as it means to the person, natural and alternative wellness, and entrepreneurship. And I think when you combine those 4 things, together, the person will have a very beautiful and empowered and purpose-filled life.

Yeah, those are strong, strong principles. I rarely see a successful person who doesn't have something going on in those different areas.

In those domains, right? That's the whole person theory. If we're not bringing that together— I'm sure there's stuff like that that you're dealing with, right, where there's some aspect or angle that they're not addressing that is holding them back. Back from whatever they need for sure in their business. So let's take 30 seconds, and I want to make sure that we get as much positive plugging of your stuff out there. So you also have a podcast, and, um, that's, you know, focusing on these type of ideas and more.

Yep, it's The Six to Seven Figure Show, and, uh, you know, again, based on our motto of six-figure practices, seven-figure enterprise, that's, that's kind of what we look at. It's basically We like to think of every interview as kind of a case study. So I like— I talk to folks who are through that journey or well into that journey of moving through. And, um, you know, we do a little bit of the context and the fun, so what's going on with you kind of thing, but we really do a lot of shop talk. It's, hey, so how, how do you handle it when a client does this? And how did you switch over to that model? And So it's a lot of, I like to think of them each as little case studies of what would be applicable to the broader audience. So that's, they're a lot of fun.

Yeah, and I want people to hear that, right? I think that's such a powerful message. One of the, I don't know if you're familiar with Hank Norman from the 10X Circles. He created The View, he helped Oprah create the network, he's behind Grant Cardone and Mel Robbins. He has this thing of like, don't tell me what you do, show me what you do.

We do.

Yeah. Right. And for me as a therapist and for other people out there, as in where there's a HIPAA confidentiality thing, you know, it's very hard. You can't film your therapy sessions. And even the whole reality TV show thing is really weird, ethically, and how they do that. Right. Like, we can't go out and like, you know, and even like multiple states, we can't even have our clients write testimonials or reviews for us because it's an empower— you know, it's a— could be a conflict of interest and all those different things. So It's very tough for us, and there's a lot of outdated mentality about that as well. So what I started doing, and I'm gonna start doing, is I actually put out to my network of, "Hey, who wants to be on my podcast in exchange for a coaching session?" It can't be therapy, it can't be this, this, this, and this. But if you want some mindset, if you want some help, if you want some strategic thinking, if you want some goal setting, if you want whatever, right, and I will let you know whether it's therapy or not, and you're willing to let that be shared, I will coach you for free. I want people out there, especially now, with whatever business you have, if you own a restaurant or you're a chef, teach people how to make your absolute best-selling product.

Yeah, it's time to innovate. Right, time to innovate.

This is the beautiful thing about what's happening, and it's really binary. You're either going to play this game, because if you're saying, "I'll wait 6 months," you're still behind the schedule, right? So I think that's really where I want to empower people, and I love the fact that your podcast does that because I think that's so powerful and it's so useful. It's not just two people rambling, and we know those podcasts are out there just bullshitting for the sake of bullshitting, right? It is that process, and I think people want process. So when you're out there and you're listening to this, whether it's my podcast or you're listening to Frank's podcast, right, and you're creating or whoever out there is creating your own stuff, talk about the process, talk about the results. And then after that, and then what? Right? Right. So good. So there's going to be hopefully a then what for us, but I want to challenge people out there who are listening, please go check out his podcast. Please listen to an episode that kind of pops up to you. If there's any of the themes on there that seem to you, leave him a 5-star written review. Do the same for us here at You Winning Life. Every time you guys do that, I just want to explain this to people because I don't know if they get it. Not only is it just about making us feel good, because of course, right, we want to feel good about what we're doing, but it does help us get in front of more people that are like-minded to you and I, the listeners, and you and I, our guests, right? Get in front of more people and they find us. I remember, you know, mine came up as a suggest— people who are looking for you are also looking for— it was Andy Frisella and Ed Mylett. And I'm like, oh, okay. I like being in comparison with those two guys, right? So, all right, so I'm doing something right here when it comes to our podcast. But that really does help us get in front of more people and that helps us bring more value and more results and help people who really need to be helped in each of our unique fields. So my man, thank you so much for spending time with us today.

Yeah, absolutely. It's been a blast.

Thanks for listening to the You Winning Life podcast. If you are ready to minimize your personal and professional struggles and maximize your potential, we would love it if you subscribed so you don't miss an episode. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Jason Wasser LMFT 🎗️.