Ep. 49-Mike Domitrz: The Center For Respect

This is the You Winning Life podcast, your number one source for mastering a positive existence. Each episode, we'll be interviewing exceptional people, giving you empowering insights and guiding you to extraordinary outcomes. Learn from specialists in the worlds of integrative and natural wellness, spirituality, psychology, and entrepreneurship so you too can be winning life. Now here's your host, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified neuro-emotional technique practitioner, winner and certified entrepreneur coach Jason Wasser.

Hey everybody, welcome back to the You Winning Life podcast. Today's guest is Mike Dommesch, and after his sister was sexually assaulted in 1989, he became committed to reducing sexual violence from ever happening again to others. In 2002, he created the Center for Respect, which at that time was named the Date Safe Project. And has since been speaking to elementary, middle, high school students, college students, military, and business populations on this topic around the country. Mike is also the host of the Respect Podcast, exploring work, love, and life. Mike, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Jason, for having me on.

My pleasure. So let's go back in time a little bit to 2002. Between 1989 and 2002. This happened to your sister, and your first response to this experience as the brother— and she's younger, older?

So all my sisters are older. They're 4, 6, and 8 years older than me. Sherry was the one who's 4 years older than me.

And at that time, you were where and how old?

So I was in college at the time when I received the phone call from my mom. I was 19 years old. It was the second day of my sophomore year of college. I just gotten back from practice, actually. Got back to my room and there's a note on the door that said, call home immediately.

So first thought before knowing anything was what?

Well, yeah, exactly. Your first thought is, oh my gosh, what's happened? Then it's called home. I thought one of two things: what has happened, or what did I do? Like, is there something I'm in trouble for I didn't know? Or, you know, you're 19, you're like, uh-oh, call home immediately.

What is this, right? What did the school tell my parents that's going on?

I know that I did— yeah, I'd like lost my jacket from the summer resort I worked at, and I thought, oh no, you know, is it something with that? Just something So your mind goes to two very different places at that point.

Yeah. So you got that phone call, you call home.

Yeah. And my mom informs me that, that Sherri has been raped. Okay. And in no way could I have saw this coming. I was in shock. I was dumbfounded. I was hurt. I was confused. I was lost. And, and it was a case where the person was, was caught. And so at first they're like, you know, they're still investigating, so really can't say much. And I took that as don't talk to people about it. So, you know, I don't want to do anything to harm it. So I internalized, I can't tell anyone. So here I am away at college and this is going through me and I can't talk to anyone. That's what I thought in my mind. That, that's the mistake I made. Uh, and so I struggled. I struggled for several months. I went from being a very, very strong student to be really struggling academically, everything. And then I transferred home. I'm like, I called home and I said, I need to transfer. I need to go to the local, the local university in my hometown, which is great school, but, but it wasn't, uh, I wouldn't have gone there for the same major. And I was studying theater at the time. And so, and I was doing very well in theater. My parents actually asked, what is wrong? What is going on here? This is your life passion and you're changing it. Uh, and so that it totally changed my path, how I was viewing things. And what it was, was I wanted security in that moment. My life had been thrown off and I wanted security. And so I was changing majors to business school so I'd have security, I'd be closer to home. Uh, so that's where it began. And while there, the next semester at that college, I was on the swim team and I heard a speaker and the speaker was talking about this topic. And I thought, wait a second, I can do something about this. And that's when everything shifted. I went to the speaker, I said, hey, I want to learn how to do this. He said, if you really want to learn, you can come to my place. And I got really lucky. He lived 45 minutes away. I mean, what are the odds a national speaker is 45 minutes away? And I showed up at his place and he said, no one shows up. You showed up. I'll give you whatever I've got. And he did. And I wrote a speech from that. And I went into my local high school, a teacher I knew, Mrs. at the time Ziegler, now her name is Farrell. But I said to her, hey, I'd love to present this to the class. She goes, Mike, I trust you. Afterwards, she's like, this is what you need to be doing. And that's where it all began. Began in 1990, '91, really started speaking out in '91. And to tell you what a journey this has been, Jason, is that just a few days ago, my wife was looking through some old photographs of our kids. She found a thank-you card. It was from a teacher in 1992 who was thanking me for coming to her class, and the card was talking about how much it was the students appreciated how I was able to connect with them on respect and and how I was able to use a style that allowed them to come to the conclusion, which is what I'm known for nowadays. It's just so weird to look back and see, and we weren't the Center for Respect back then, so to see, wait, respect was the focal word of this thank you card, and I was the DateSafe Project, and now I'm the Center for Respect, and that style is what we're known for. It's just life takes us on journeys we don't expect.

And it's so profound because I'm thinking of your story. And, and in these circumstances, when it happens to a particular person, like in this scenario, your sister, a lot of the attention goes to that person, which is understandable and deserved. But how much attention is given and how much support is given to the family members and the close intimate people in that person's life who are trying to support that person going through that? And get the support that they need to help support the person going through the scenario. So I'm hearing your story and hearing what happened to you in a way kind of like this post-traumatic stress experience.

Absolutely, and keep in mind, this is 1989. So there were no resources that you were told to talk to as the family member.

Right.

Right, so I would know—

Guidance counselors probably weren't equipped to talk about this on campus or whatever.

Nobody even advised it. Nobody said, hey, go talk to the— it didn't even come to your mind that you would do that. And so that I would learn when I heard the speaker, I started researching, you know, everything. And even with my sister's case, I started researching what the person who was caught for, what, what crime they were up for, like what was the amount of years, all that. And I ran into the language of secondary victim, which was referring to family and friends. And that was the first time I recognized Hey, I have to recognize how I knew this was hurting me. I knew it was messing me up as far as psychologically and as far as being able to focus and stay on point, but I didn't recognize that, that that's normal, that I don't need to figure this out all on my own, that there's support out there. I had no clue of that. So one thing that I really like to talk to people about is make sure you know this isn't your burden to carry. Right? You just like you would tell a survivor, this isn't your burden. Somebody did this to you. You didn't cause this. No matter what happened, someone did this to you. So if you're a family member or friend, no, it's not your burden to figure this all out on your own. Use counselors, use therapists. I'm a huge fan of therapists. I, I am always surprised that people have, and I know why there's a stigma. Something's wrong with me if I talk to a therapist, but if something's wrong with my hand, I go to the doctor, right? And nobody thinks a second about that.

Well, I'm glad that part is changing. Right. It's 2020. And, you know, the stigma back in the day, and it's still there at a much lesser level. And, and of course, it depends on your culture and your community and stuff like that, that this plays out in. But in general, I'm finding back in the day, exactly like you said, if I go to a therapist, what's wrong with me? And now the joke is, if I don't go to a therapist, what's wrong with me?

Yeah, right.

And I'm glad that that's shifting and handling. And of course, I see it more. And it's funny, I'm finding that when I see a couple, A lot of the times the person who's initiating the therapy is typically the wife or the female in the relationship. But I'm also finding more that when it becomes to the point where it's about make it or break it in the relationship, as opposed to like earlier on when there's just some issues that are building up where it's like we maybe are going to get divorced, then I find the male stepping up to take the initiative. So it's very interesting depending on the stage of life or the stage of a relationship where that initiative is taken when it comes to actually getting help from someone who's outside of their little circles?

Well, one thing that I found really powerful is a friend of mine, Dr. Alexandra Solomon. She's known for the class Marriage 101. It's gotten worldwide attention. It's at Northwestern University, and she's written some really great books about it. She's a marriage counselor who uses marriage counseling. And when people hear a marriage counselor, they think, well, that's the last person that would ever go to marriage counseling. They know everything they need to know. And she points out in her book right away, early in the book. Why wouldn't I? Like, if I see the value of people coming to me, why wouldn't I want that value for my own relationship, my own marriage? Why would I want to assume it's just perfect with just the two of us? We'll figure it all out.

Yeah, well, the best coach, right? The best coaches have coaches. The best businesses have coaches and therapists. So, so even, um, what was the, the UFC fight of the— like, his name just slipped my mind—

McGregor.

McGregor. Do you know who he just hired? In the last 6 months?

No, I didn't see that.

Tony Robbins.

Okay.

So, right. So even McGregor, who is the top of his game, hired someone to become even more on the top of his game. And of course, right, people are like, well, he has the money, he has the time, he has resources, but there's always something out there. And thankfully, right, with 2020 and social media and the internet, you can get stuff for free.

Yeah.

Versus having to go and you can start there. And I'm wondering, going back to that timeframe, and you said like, you know, I couldn't talk to people. I felt like I was kind of took this interpretation, I couldn't talk to people about it. How much of it was like this, like guilt and shame component that I know Brené Brown talks a lot about?

Yeah, that was not my situation at all. Like, I wanted to talk. So it was not one where I'm like, oh, I'm going to be embarrassed to talk about this. It was purely that I thought it would jeopardize any kind of the case that was about to take place if I talked about it. That's all it was. My mind wanted to talk. I want to talk to my friends. So it was me containing that. And it was a misinterpretation. That's the sad part. I would learn 2 months into this, like, why aren't you talking to anyone? When I said that to my family and I explained, they're like, that's— oh my goodness, that's not what we said. So it was my own misinterpretation.

It's so interesting. That reminds me of a conversation I had with someone last night that I'm coaching. And they were— we were trying to figure out if they can have a budget for their pro— their school program to help invest in, to help them grow the program that they're trying to create. And they're like, I don't know. I'm sure if I ask, they'll say no. And I'm like, well, is that the worst part of, you know, if you ask, would that be the worst part if they say no? And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, no, it's not. The worst part is that they'll say yes. And then you actually have to step up and do the work.

Right.

So it's actually—

and I used to work in— I coached high school swimming, swimming, diving. And I remember coming into one of the programs. And they said, you know, the AD, we don't get any support. We don't get this, we don't get that. And so I went to the AD and I said, could we get this, this, and this? And he said, well, like, what would you need it for? I explained. He goes, what would it cost? I gave him the budget and went, we'll order it. And I said, this is so weird. I was told this doesn't— they said they never explained why they needed it. They never gave me a budget. It was just, you know, I would— I don't know why they said I wouldn't. So it is a matter of asking and being okay with if they say no, at least I tried. Versus just not even trying in the first place. And so that goes to the essence of my work because I am all about ask first and respect the answer. All right, there's both qualities need to be there.

Agreed. So let's go more into that because consent in— is huge in the world of— if we want to break it down into the two worlds that I think we're living in today in 2020 America, people think or have the stigma or this idea that consent and the words around consent and permission is very progressive, very liberal, very East Coast, very LA, very New York, and the rest of us in America, that's just for those, you know, you know, the liberal thing versus this is really the way humans should interact with each other in the world. So how do we break that apart?

Yeah, I can break it apart in one question. I don't care where the person's from. If they're a parent or they have someone they deeply care about or love, I'll ask the following single question: Do you believe your child should always have a choice before somebody ever does something to their body sexually or intimately? What will every parent answer to that, Jason Wasser?

I would hope they would say yes.

Oh, they'll say, of course I do. Okay, so how have you taught them to ask for what they want or don't want, or to ask their partner what they want or they don't want. And they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Well, how do you expect them to be able to declare their boundaries and be treated with respect or to treat others with respect if you aren't teaching what consent looks like, what it sounds like, what it feels like? You've got to give the skills. And sadly, our country says ask first and doesn't give skills. And that's what we're known for. We come in and teach the how-to, but we also break down the barriers first. 'Cause if you just say to a student, ask first, all these barriers come up. Like there's a wall now in front of them. You can't even see them, right? And so you have to break those barriers away so that now we can give them the skills to build their confidence up to make the right choice. They want to do the right thing. They're just afraid that if they do, what the consequences that'll be.

And I remember one of my first jobs was actually, um, as a school therapist, um, and it was a private school and the boys were and girls were separated. By gender in the program. And but I remember in the preschool they were together until kindergarten. But I know like a theme throughout all schools, through all parents, is no one should touch you, right? No one should touch your private spots. Here's the thing. But I don't think there's ever the script in reverse like you're saying. And by the way, what's okay to not— not okay to do? And how do you ask permission? So I want— that's been the missing piece that I think people haven't been talking about that I know that you're putting a focus on.

Yeah, it is the missing piece, right? We tell them defend yourself, but we never teach them how to respect others' boundaries or how to clear those boundaries when they are at an age where they're going to have the opportunity to say yes to that question or yes to that choice, right? Everything's built on the no, don't, don't do this, don't let someone touch you, don't have sex, don't do this. What happens when the day they get to make that choice? Right? Are they gonna have the skills? Because I know parents that are big believers in abstinence, and I get hired by abstinence-based schools all the time, and people are like, how can that be? You're teaching consent. For the following reason: if you really believe in abstinence, it's usually for one main reason. For most people, it's usually a faith-based belief, and they believe it is a gift from God to be treasured, honored, and respected between two people who have committed themselves to their lives together in a loving way, and that it's meant for that, and that the body's a temple to be treasured, honored, and respected at all times. If you believe that, you would always teach your kids about consent because you'd want those boundaries to be respected. You'd want to make sure that your kid feels safe saying no, and then when they find that person who they are committed to, they are in love with, that even in marriage, it feels good to say yes. Because if you only taught them it's a no thing, then there's all this guilt with sex and sex is bad and sex is awful versus teaching it's this amazing gift. It's this amazing, wonderful experience. At least it should be. It's often not, but it should be. And so, and here's the other side. They go, well, then you're, you're making it exciting. They're going to want to do it sooner. No, you need to be realistic and say it takes all these steps for this to be a mutually amazing experience. And that these steps, when you talk to it about teenagers, they'll recognize, oh my gosh, I don't— I'm not even 3 of the 10 steps. I'm not even 1 of the 10 steps. And they want to do the right thing. So when you give them the skill sets, they're sitting there going, thank you so much for helping me recognize either I'm not ready or I am ready, but I haven't been handling it maturely. I've already been doing it and now I need to go back and reverse how I've been handling this and give them the skills to wake— make way smarter, safer choices for themselves.

And here's the kicker with everything you're saying, which I found in my years of working with couples and families that are in that quadrant of life, right? That more religious, faith-based practices. And those who are— maybe those are not the number one thing that's guiding them, but they may be involved at whatever level they are spiritually, religiously, is that consent doesn't stop the day you get married. That doesn't mean that like you're now standing under the marriage canopy and then, right, you decided like before you're married you didn't do these things or you did whatever you were okay with doing. And now once you're married, it's all carte blanche for your partner to do whatever they want to you, that the consent does have to continue and maybe even more so be more—

Yeah, well, here's the thing. Sadly, many people forget what country they're in when they get married. And they think that people give up their freedoms when they get married. So they think, if I marry you, you owe me sex. You don't have the freedom to choose. You owe me sex. But we live in America where freedom is a number one component aspect that everybody prides themselves on. Unfortunately though, our country does not have a good history of freedom actually being legal in marriage. What do I mean by that? Just a generation ago Rape laws did not exist in marriage in many, many states. So you could not be charged for the rape of your spouse just a generation ago. So keep in mind, many generations have come before that had this messed up understanding that you could do what you wanted to another human being once married. And then we recognized, wait a second, if you're committing to this person to live your life with them because you love them, you care for them deeply, The last thing you'd ever want to do is engage in loving intimacy that isn't loving, that isn't mutually wanted. And Jason, this is where we change the conversation a bit on consent. Most people, they hear consent, they think of the word permission, right? And so they think, as long as I have your permission, I can do whatever I want. As long as I have your permission. Well, the problem with the word permission is I can get you to do things you don't want to do. In other words, I can get your permission I can get you to say yes to something you're not in the mood for out of guilt, out of coercion. It's not freely given, it's not enthusiastic. That's totally different than is this mutually wanted. So when I define consent, whether I'm talking to middle schoolers, high schoolers, or 55-year-olds in a corporate environment, we are saying is it mutually wanted? Because that's the optimal consent. It's mutually wanted, it can be enthusiastically given, So if you're like, hey, you want to have sex? And they're like, I guess. That's not enthusiastic. That should be a red flag that goes, by technically they said yes, but why? Why are we doing this? Is that out of pity? Which by the way, people do.

Oh yeah.

Married people have pity sex. Like I'm not in the mood, but let's just get this over with. Right? And they might not say that out loud, but they treat it like that. And so when I say that out loud in front of audiences that are adults, they laugh because they've been there. That's how normal that feeling is. Or the comment of, you can just lay there, I'll do everything, right? So this kind of concept that can happen.

Agreed, agreed. And I know that the numbers are staggering with intimate partner violence, and that, like you said, a decade ago no one was considering forced sexual encounters as rape in this. And it doesn't have to be domestic violence in the classical sense of throwing something at them or hurting them or or verbally abusive or hiding money or controlling them. But this idea of intimate partner violence is unfortunately exponentially an issue that's finally being tackled and addressed.

Yeah, I mean, prior to the '80s, in many states, the law was written that protected really marriage from being accused of rape. And so that's really when we started to see it change was in the '80s. And some states took longer than others when that goes. But the idea that You are married to me and you say, look, you married me, you got to give me at least this much. And, and you're right, maybe I'm not physically forcing it, maybe I'm not threatening, but I have guilted you through marriage that this is your role and this is your job and I'm doing my job. Now you do your job. And what they're really describing is prostitution. Yeah, because usually what they're saying is something like, I earn this much money and your job is to do this. And they're acting like, I bring money to the table and you owe me the sex. That's how marriage works. Now, that's how prostitution works. And ironically, in prostitution, consent is still vital, right? A prostitute talks very deliberately about exactly what's going to happen and what is being agreed upon.

And so are you saying that in, in that type of dynamic, in a, in a prostititional relationship dynamic, they actually have more freedom when it comes to consent than a couple who may not be aware of this concept, who may be stuck in this challenging limiting dynamic and feel pressured, coerced, manipulated, or guilt?

Yeah, I would be careful there for the following reasons: that many people in the sex work industry are not there freely.

Well, I'm not talking about that specifically, right?

But because, because of that, that impacts the whole consent. Yes. Right. So if I feel I have to do this, Yes, I'm establishing consent with the client about what's going to happen, but this whole thing is really forced and coerced and pressured. So that's, that's the catch that can happen here. There are people who argue, well, people who freely go into the sex work industry and are not being pimped that way or not being treated that way, that is consensual. That's a whole different discussion, obviously. Um, but the point there was that you don't treat marriage like a relationship between a prostitute and client.

Exactly. So let's tie this back into the basis of how to make decisions, all this. And right on your website, straight front and center is one of my favorite topics to talk about, which is core values. And I know that the Center for Respect has it specifically right. And I'll, I'll read it for the listeners is that respect is at the foundation of each interaction, choice and action we take. Ask and respect the answer. Do no harm. Pursue the growth, fulfillment, and well-being of each person. Appreciate and honor family and the team. Have fun advancing our mission. Seek opportunities that fit— and fit is all in capital— our unique abilities. And be grateful and communicate gratitude throughout our relationships. So what were you trying to create with that? And how is that playing out with the team and the community that you've created?

Yeah, it would. This is really important because each of these are intentional, and so all of them must be true. I have a good friend who speaks on accountability, Sam Silverstein. He's the person in the world on accountability, and he always says, look, if you're going to do— talk about core values, if any one of them you are not living, it's not a core value, and you're lying because you're saying this is what we live by and you don't. So not only are you defying your core values, you are lying. So you have to look at these and doesn't mean that you're perfect at them. It means that you're constantly striving to work on those, right? There could be time that maybe a teammate and I have a disagreement and we're not at the most respectful place we could be in that moment, right? It's recognizing that's not what we want to be. We're going to correct that so that we can be respectful in every move and every decision we make. Do no harm. I learned that the hard way once when I was I was speaking and somebody was confronting me and I handled it the way the room was like, that was brilliant. But the person didn't feel as empowered in that moment. And I had to recognize I did harm there, at least in that moment, they didn't feel empowered and I consider that harm. And I'm an educator, so I don't want to do no harm. So each of them, respect the answer. Like if you're going to ask me, don't ask me if you don't want to know the answer. People are notorious for saying, parents do it, Bosses do it. They'll do this. Uh, hey Jason, can you do this project for me? And then if you say no, well Jason, I really was hoping you were going to do it. Well then why'd you ask? Why didn't you say Jason, you need to do this project? The moment you asked and didn't respect my answer, you actually took away my choice, belittled me, and made me less than. You would have just been way better off saying, hey, I need this project done. Jason, since you're in this role, you're the one responsible for it. That's actually way more respectful.

Right, agreed.

So, and then the growth, fulfillment, the family, the team, that's my core self. And I can't build an organization where we're not having fun advancing all of that together. And the unique abilities, I think, is so important. I don't want to try to get a fish to walk, right? I want everybody in the place they belong. And so I know what mine are. I want to make sure I'm spending my energy doing them. And let other people spend energy doing what they do best. I stay out of that, they stay out of this, we all are at our best.

So you're really hitting a lot of entrepreneurship themes that the book The E-Myth talks about. I don't know if you're familiar with that book, right?

Yeah, I absolutely am. Right.

The entrepreneur—

years, but I absolutely love the book.

Yeah.

Right.

And people out there, and I've talked about this in previous episodes, but it's the breakdown of being whether— are you the entrepreneur? Are you the manager? Are be the technician and knowing what your specific roles are, knowing what your specific talents are, and then everything else leveraging out. And I joke with my clients that I no longer do my laundry, that it's more time and cost efficient for me to come in and see a client during that time, get paid exponentially more, do something I love and enjoy, than doing 2 hours worth of laundry at home that cost me a much lower amount. And I never in my mind 2 years ago would have considered— I'm like, that's the most entitled, selfish, stuck-up way of doing things. But when I started seeing it through this lens of what's my potential— my potential is not to be a person washing laundry. Doesn't mean I'm not gonna ever do it again, but I found a way to leverage it. And now I have other people in my business that are doing other things that I'm just not good at, like editing this podcast. It's not my forte. And I'll take 8 hours doing something it'll take someone an hour to do.

Yeah, and there are many things that I'm fortunate because I'm technologically very comfortable and competent. So I can do a lot of web stuff, I can do podcasts, I can do audio, video, I can do all of that, but it doesn't make sense. And, and there's— it doesn't align with my unique ability. And when you, when you read the book Unique Ability, it's an amazing book by the way for anybody watching or listening, and when you read it, it really gives you 4 quadrants. All right, the things you're just awful at, you don't belong doing, that's easy, right? That's this one quadrant. Then you have a quadrant where you're good at it. You're not, you're not great. You're not even wonderful, but you're good at it. You could figure it out. Then you have the quadrant you're really, you really good at it and you could really pull this off. But then you have the quadrant where you're amazing and spectacular and you could, you could be in that place 24 hours a day and not burn out. That's where we need to be. A lot of us are in the quadrant before. Doing the stuff we're really, really good at but not spectacular at. And so we try to take that on, and that every moment we're in that quadrant means we're not doing what we're built here to do. We're not in our unique ability. So that's why I, I have web people, I have production people for my podcast. I could, like you, I could do all those, and I'm really comfortable at them and could do a good job with them, but not as spectacular as they could. Right, and so let them have it, right? And so we have all these people in these roles that help make these things happen.

Well, it's really interesting that you're saying that if you're operating in that third space where you're good at it, but you're not amazing at it, but there's another person out there who's amazing at it, you're taking away their opportunity to shine in their purpose and potential.

Absolutely. And the result is difference from great to amazing. Right, so that now everything you do, your brand, your work, your organization, it's always in the really good category because it never got to be in the amazing quadrant. You weren't there, you weren't spending your time there. But if you let other people be amazing creating that, everything's in the amazing quadrant. The quality of everything is in the amazing quadrant because everybody's in their amazing quadrant. So that's really a key difference too.

So the back end of business, just to— and this wasn't something I was thinking about asking you, but As your— as this organization grew, how did you know when to start investing in outside resources or bringing someone in as part of your team? When you're like, how are we going to afford this? Can we? Exactly. Will this take money out of my pocket?

What I did was for the first year, I just went all in. I was doing everything. I was up till 4 in the morning every night working the internet, working this, and call on calls with colleagues who were building theirs and It was all on me. And after a year, I did have an agent helping me through that year in some form or fashion. And after a year, I stepped back and went, wait a second, what if I took all that commission and hired someone full-time just for me? An agent's working with 10, 20 other acts, other speakers, all these other things. What if I had somebody who just came aboard and helped us build it the way I want it built, representing me the way I want it built? And we took that money to do that. And then we saw, all right, what— now we've got a little extra income revenue coming in because we're doing more work. What if we took that money to hire this person? So now that comes off, and then this person, and over time you keep going there. Now I want to be clear, I am not an entrepreneur anymore. I actually argue that very few people are entrepreneurs who say they're entrepreneurs. My major was entrepreneur— was actually Entrepreneurism in college. So I was entrepreneurial back then because I was starting a company from scratch. I was going against society who's taking all these risks. But if I was still an entrepreneur, I would have sold this company many, many years ago. I would have taken a huge risk in starting another one. And then I would have sold that one and I would have taken a huge, huge risk on another one and sold that one.

Yeah.

What most of America calls entrepreneurs are investors and business owners. And they're not entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs have to take the next big risk. And there's very few of them out there, and that's why they are unique. You might be entrepreneurial, but that's not being an entrepreneur. People forget how much risk is involved in entrepreneurism.

Exactly. And one of my buddies on— who I had on the previous episode, Judge Graham, is a serial entrepreneur, multiple multimillion-dollar exits. And he said— and his book is called Scale with Speed— and he says that if you're creating a business so you don't have to work for someone else, but you end up working working for yourself as if you were working for someone else, you're not doing it right. That you're not— you shouldn't go out to create something that's giving you a job. But you also have to work about the lights and cleaning up the garbage and payroll and all that stuff. Because you might be better off getting a job somewhere else, making a little bit less, but have the freedom and the lifestyle that you can desire without all those headaches.

That's true. I think it really depends on what you want. Right? I love what I do. And in my— in the way our organization and the way we've grown it, I have to be part multiple roles, just where we're at. Now, if we were significantly larger or whatever, maybe I wouldn't have to be, uh, but I do have to be the CEO. And in my case, I'm the speaker, I'm the author, uh, I am. So I am both in that capacity, and you have to balance those things out.

Well, you're part of the brand, correct?

That— and so that is different if you're part of the brand, if your expertise, or, you know, same with Doctors, lawyers, people have practices, can have the same thing depending on how, how you want to build it. So it's a personal choice.

So let's go back to the really practical side. So you're speaking and you're hitting this wide gamut of different populations. What are some of the consistent themes that you are sharing and teaching, whether it's kindergarten to 12th grade, college kids, young professionals, businesses, or military?

Yeah, the one thing I think will help our listeners and our watchers right now understand is that when we say I'm speaking to businesses, corporate associations, it's actually not the stuff you and I've been discussing. Because when they hear that, they go, who's hiring you for consent? You're right, most companies aren't. Even though they have a consent problem in the workplace, they're not addressing that. They're saying bring in the legal training that checks the boxes so that nobody gets sued for sexual harassment. That's what most companies are doing. And so what we recognized is people who are watching my program said, Mike, why aren't you corporate? And I said, I don't want to be that. That's not who I am. I'm not the check the box legal. And they said, yeah, but what you do isn't that in your other industry. So why does it need to be that here? And so what we did is we looked at all the ways respect fails to show in the workplace every day amongst really good people who have really good intentions and they accidentally fall into disrespectful behaviors instead of respectful behaviors. And we call it the 9 Daily Displays of Disrespect. And all of us do some of them. Some people do a lot more than others of certain, of all of them or a few of them. And then what we help them recognize is here's the 9 and then you can take each of them and flip it into a choice for respect. It has a counter choice. And we give them that, and then we walk out. Everybody's watching now for the 9, and then recognizing, oh, did it. I need to switch that to this. And you get behavioral shifts in organizations. You change the culture of organization dramatically because they want to do the right thing. So there's no shame in this, there's no guilt in this. It's awareness and skills being combined. You need both. If you have one or the other, you're not going to make you're not gonna make transformation.

That reminds me of a story of a buddy of mine who is a very successful business owner. And when he was going through this whole core value purging process, or he calls it the torching of his business, his lead, one of his lead sales guys wasn't, who had like the highest amount of commission of sales, we're talking about like 300, 400 grand a year of commission sales. So the guy was bringing in multimillion-dollar business to the company. He wouldn't get on board with agreeing to the core values, like signing, like, these are our core values. These are we're going to operate around. We're now going to wear, you know, more of a uniform, like polo shirts, like you're wearing your fleece with your name on it. When we go out to businesses and we meet with our clients. And the person was like, no, like, I'm going to show up in my shorts and my flip-flops. Yeah. And because I've been doing that for so many years. Why are we— because he was looking about what's the next big step for the company if it's going to be bought out, right? If it's going to be whatever. And the guy refused. And he's like, Sorry, we're not part of, you know, this isn't going to work for our company. And the person was like, but I'm your biggest sales producer. And he's like, yeah, but we're doing things differently now. And if that doesn't work for you, and the guy ended up leaving. And what happened is that other people after that experience came over to the owner of this company and said, the environment in this, in the workspace is so different now that that person is gone. And they feel so much more comfortable, and it's much more easier to talk and connect with each other. So there was stuff that didn't even hit, you know, the level of anybody addressing it, but it was so, you know, pushed down.

Yeah, well, that's just it. So, and we're new to that corporate space, like they're bringing us in and they know we've been doing this forever for the military, for education, but the corporate space, we're newer. And so when I'm sharing this, what's amazing is how many light bulbs are going off in the room. And what you get is one of two responses. I'll get the— I'll get a CEO raise their hand and go, what about my top salesperson who won't respect the culture, who won't respect the coworker, who won't— and I said, why are they still working for you? And they're like, well, they're my top salesperson. I go, okay, let's pause here. You're telling me they're your rock star? And they're like, yes, they're my rock star. And you don't have other rock stars? And they're like, uh, Not like this rock star. So the problem's not that they're your rock star. The problem is you haven't built an organization full of rock stars, and now you're totally dependent on this person who's not a rock star. They're a sales star. A rock star would be rock solid for the organization too. And so it's poorly built, and so that's why you're afraid if you lose this, everything's going to collapse. Let's build it better. Let's re-renovate. So you're not dependent on that person. Because here's what happens when I say that out loud in front of the room. I'll say, anybody who's been there knows when you get rid of that person, it's amazing how many rock stars you had in the organization that were being silenced, that didn't feel safe, that didn't— and when I say that, the number of people that'd be like, been there, totally been there. And I'll say to that person, was it a totally different environment a year later? Were the sales the same, if not higher? And they're always like, yep, yep, yep. It's amazing how many CEOs operate in fear instead of prosperity. Look, if you're going to believe in a culture of respect, then you have to respect the possibilities of the talent all around you already, which means no one should dictate because you have so much talent that if you get rid of the one that's going to pick it up and run.

Well, that reminds me of that phrase, rising tide raises all ships. So how many of those people were waiting to either, A, get the attention that they need, the training that they need? But if you were really calling someone who's a rock star, rock star, they're going to make the whole band sound better.

That's exactly correct.

Right. And make sure the volume and everything is right. There's no overpowering in the sound system or the rate and the EQ of that. And that mindset— I love hearing that story of like, everybody, every company has this business, especially if they're in the sales world, where it's that, that guy, or, you know, typically it's the guy who was the top sales guy in 1998. And they don't— and they never let you forget it. And it's now 2000. Right.

Yeah, that's like when I'm in high schools and I say to kids, if somebody ever tells you this is the greatest time of your life, find a new role model, because this should not be the greatest time of your life. And when you say it to high schoolers, they're like, thank goodness, because if this is the best of my life, this isn't a lot more to look forward to. They don't want to be told that. It's like the worst thing you can say. You should say it's going to get better, which people said a few years ago, but they were referring specifically to identities, gender, where people were not being treated with respect and not being valued in our world. They forgot to say that that's true of high school as a whole, is that you're going to gain freedom, you're getting into all this. Life should get better every year, you know, 50 should be better than 40, 60 should be better than 50. That doesn't mean there aren't some negatives that come along that path, but it's also how you value better, right? You view things differently.

And the visual reference I have when you're referring to that story is, is Al Bundy in Married with Children. Where he— yes, the Polk High School, 5— what is it, 4 or 5 touchdowns that he scored his senior year for Polk High, won the championship, and life has been all downhill since then.

Yeah, exactly right. And where it should be the opposite. It's just every year is a new opportunity to explore the world in your life.

So, so going back to the themes that are consistent across all of these categories, we see that that also applies to allowing everybody to have the opportunity to be a rock star. Who around you is not allowing you to do that in your environment, whether it's the bully in elementary school? And there was a big issue when I worked at one of the private schools that there was a group, there was one bully that was bullying all the girls, and we flipped everything on the head. And then that ended up transforming this whole relationship, not only for those kids, but that bully owned up to their stuff and then became friends with those kids. Where, where, you know, because consent is a big part of, right, of communication, friendship, and all that stuff. But what are those other consistent themes that you you have found.

Yeah, here they are. So if you were to look at our logo, which you can see right here on the screen, you see there's 3 inner wheels within the wheel because those are the 3 forces that, that make us move. The inner circle that is infinite is respect. It drives everything. So the small circle is respect. The 3 energies around it are the following: empathy. Empathy is critical. So if I cannot have empathy for you, It's going to be hard for me to treat you with love, with care, because it's all about me. I don't care about you. Empathy is what allows me to try to figure out, to see your world as you, even though I can never do that. I want to at least care enough to understand where you're coming from. I cannot actually walk a mile in your shoes because I don't have the history of your life in those shoes, but at least to try to understand that, that's empathy. And it's critical for everything because if I have empathy, and I see something awful happening to you, I want to help you and I want to stop who's doing the harm from doing that to you. This is true throughout life. So empathy, one. Two, it is the important understanding of mutuality, which means if I'm in a relationship, whether you— whether that's at work, whether that's at home, whether that's sexual, this should be a mutual experience. This should not be about I am over you or you are over me. It should be about what we have mutually have together in this relationship and how we're going to build this as a mutual relationship. That's the word that is rarely discussed in corporations. It's rarely discussed in marriage and it is critical. Is this mutual? Right? And so that's critical. And then the third, and this is really important, consistency. Those are the three forces. If we're only doing these sometimes, so I'm nasty to you one day and I'm loving you the next day, that's called a toxic relationship. Well, it shows mutuality sometimes, it shows empathy sometimes, but not consistently. Consistency of those two items— if you show consistently mutuality and empathy, you can have an amazing ability to build incredible relationships. Work, love, and life.

And you can take that theme to a kindergartner.

Yes. Yeah, that's what's beautiful about this. It doesn't matter whether I'm talking to a middle school student or a 70-year-old CEO. It doesn't matter. Yeah.

So outside of the school age or the school environments, what— and then outside of the business environments, what other environment really needs to be hearing this and practicing this?

Well, as a whole, the tough part to answer that question is how do you get to these Audiences we're referring to, because I would actually argue that this should be instilled in education at the youngest of ages. So all human beings are taught these three things. That would be the ideal world. Otherwise, the one we haven't discussed yet is parents, because they have such a huge influence and they are role modeling. So if my parents or your parents never taught you that you have a choice with your body, and you just give me a kiss because I love you, and you give grandma a kiss because you love grandma, I'm going to learn that if I love someone, I owe them intimacy. And a partner is going to twist that to be sexual intimacy. And I'll believe that because I was always taught if you love someone, that's what you do. And so we need parents to role model, "May I give you a hug?" "Oh no?" "Okay, okay." And that's okay. That's it. Not, "Why not?" Not, "But I love you." Not coercing them, respecting their answer. And this is something that is not taught. It's starting to be taught. You're seeing more and more parents say that I'm teaching my child consent at a young age, but it's not overall being taught across the board.

And I love hearing that story. I don't love the result of the story, but I love hearing that people are talking about this where they're saying, like, when you're at a family get-together and great aunt so-and-so always comes over, pinches your cheeks, right? The classic story that it's okay for that person not to want to. Even if that person is going to get ridiculously upset over it because, you know, this is what's— what life has been like for them for the last 70 years.

Yeah. And what's important for everyone to recognize is we're listening. People get really defensive and they'll be like, wait a second, I do that. I've made my kids give my mom a kiss. Oh my gosh, you're calling me this? We're not calling you anything. We're saying what we want to give is the best tools. I've done many of these things. I've made many of these mistakes. So I'm not sitting here as an expert going, oh, I would never have done this. Sometimes you learn even more because when you recognize down the road, oh, that leads to this. A plus B equals C, and I once did A and I once did B. I don't ever want to do that again, and I want to help others not do that again. And that's why we're so passionate about it, because we don't want to make the same— we don't want others to have to make the mistakes we made along the journey, right? It's like parents. You want to make it easier for your kids when they're parents, for it to be easier on them. That doesn't mean it will be, but you wish you could, right? So you want to give them the skill sets.

So let's shift this to a culture where consent is already assumed from the second you walk into the culture, and then the power differential is then passed on from the highest down to the lowest, and then from the lowest to people outside of that culture, which is the military world.

All right, so let me— when you say consent is already understood, I want to make sure you're referring to the hierarchy of rank.

Meaning the second that you sign up, right, and you are recruited and you are now commissioned, your responsibility is to say yes to anything above you.

All right, so that is— that is a big misunderstanding about our US military, that once you sign up, you must say yes to everything. It's, it's a belief that people have that isn't true. And what I mean by that is is if a higher officer says, hey Jason, can you do this? They're asking you, which means you have the ability to say yes or no to that. We have unfortunately implied you better say yes. The leader who's asking though usually is a good leader. That's why they're asking, which means you have the opportunity to say no. So we want you to exercise that choice. You're not giving up consent by saying I've signed on for another 3 years, or I've signed on for another 4 years. Now there are commands that are given to you that, that is not a consensual moment, that, that you did sign up for. If I tell you to do this, you have to do this. However, even in that case, it is written in military law that if you're given a command against military law, you have the right, and not only the right, the responsibility not to execute that command, right? And so even there, consent is understood to a— that the law is where consent lies, right? If I'm— if they're telling me to break the law, I, I can't consent to that, right? So there's understandings of consent even within that system. Now, I— let's do discuss power differential because that doesn't even have to be in the military, right? That could be in a high school, that could be in a corporate environment where you're the person, right? So let's just say in the military it's a higher rank. Let's say outside of the military it's the boss. Let's say that in schools it's the popular person who is a senior and you're a sophomore. All those have similarities, and that the person who is not the one in power can feel like they do not have a choice because of what will happen to them if they execute their choice. So therefore they think, I can't execute my choice, I have to say yes. If I say no to this person of higher rank, they'll destroy my career. This is a fear somebody could have, right, that there'll be retribution and they'll destroy my career, right? If I say no to my boss, I'll never get the promotion. I will be stuck and I am already in financial trouble. This is the things people forget. We don't know what circumstances are already playing up here emotionally, mentally to their self-esteem, and they think if I don't get that promotion, uh, my family's in trouble, like I'm— there's going to be problems here, uh, and then the high school who thinks, if I don't do that, they're going to tell everybody I did, and they're going to ruin my reputation. My parents are going to hate me. And whether all that's true or not is not important. They believe it's true because of how society has taught them to believe to this point in their life. Power differential is huge. It's why consent laws in many states are written with what's called age exemptions. We have to be careful of how they do it. Let me explain, Jason. If you are 18 in some states, you can consent, okay, to sex. In other states, you can consent if you're 16 as long as the person is within 2 years of you. Okay. However, there are states where if you're 14 and they're within 4 years of you, you can consent. There are states that if you are 15 and they are within 9 years of you, you can consent. The power differential on a 24-year-old and a 15-year-old who's not even an adult yet is massive. And when you talk to high schoolers and you ask this, they're like, of course a 24-year-old's got an advantage over me, that's a no-brainer. That is a power differential that is so unhealthy. A senior with a freshman— ask all the seniors, they'll tell you, oh, I'm totally different now than I was as a freshman. And so there's an obvious power differential when a senior's with a freshman, and there's— that happens in high schools all the time, and it's a power differential. Now it doesn't mean that the senior's maliciously using that power to their advantage. What it does mean is this— the freshman could unconsciously be making choices that they would not make if they were in a situation that didn't have the power differential, and that's why it's dangerous.

The—

let's go to the military— the person who's of lower rank who says yes to the sexual activity might not even be fully conscious that they think they have to say yes because of the power differential. It's the danger of power differentials. It's why the military has laws, has policies against fraternization amongst ranks, because of how that can unconsciously appear and show itself. And consciously, by the way, it's not always unconscious.

So what are the things that they are seeing that still needs to be addressed? Because I— right, we were talking before that a good percentage of my practice is military couples. And military families, both the children and, you know, those who have served or related to those who have served. And I'm finding that there's a consistent pattern that— and it's a numbers game, and this could be just what's showing up in my practice. So it's not inclusive of every single person out there. But what I find when a couple comes in for couples counseling, out of the 10, one of them could have— there's a personality disorder that was never picked up throughout, you know, from pre-enlistment through high school, whatever it is, that was never addressed in military you know, health situations. Then there's relationships where the person who is enrolled or enlisted is the one who had an affair. And then the other scenario typically is that the person who is not enlisted, the civilian partner, is the one who had the affair. Yeah.

And what a lot of people don't recognize is that our military is a representation of all of us. And what I mean by that is, just like the person who went up— all the students that went off to college last fall, They have all the same things they're bringing to that campus that our military is bringing to that installation at 18 at boot camp, and then after boot camp. They're human beings and they're bringing life's lessons with them. So what people will tend to do is they'll go, look at our military, they have these issues of this, this, and this. Well, so does our society. The major difference is we have a way to label them as military. So now everybody goes, oh, it's the military that has this problem. When instead of going, why does our society have this problem? Because typically they're bringing societal problems with them. And because we have high expectations of our military, because the standard of our military is those who protect, we think they don't do wrong. So when they do wrong, we go, how can they? How can they cheat? How can they use power against others? Forgetting they're human beings. And they're going to have fallible aspects of their life just like everybody else outside the military has. The military is working very, very hard to address those issues so they can make the best choices possible and develop them into being the best human beings and leaders they can be. And that's a journey, and that's why I, I am honored to work with the military because the military cares deeply about these issues. I mean, really deeply. Because all of these affect readiness, right? Everything about the military is being ready to protect, to serve. It's what it's all about— readiness and being able to act when you have to act. All of these factors can crush that, crush it. So the military cares deeply about solving them.

So does this in a way become a scapegoat-type scenario for a particular population when it comes to a particular situation, right? The one that we've been talking about has been more about consent and sexual abuse and all these other things, but this can apply in so many different venues and so many different areas.

Yeah, I'll give you the example of consent, sexual assault, sexual violence. If you look at the statistics of how often sexual assault occurs within the military and how often occurs on a college campus, they are incredibly similar, but one is getting all the attention. And sadly, people go, well, you expect that on a college campus. You don't expect it in the military. And that's the part that's messed up. You shouldn't expect it on a college campus. You shouldn't expect it in the military. That's the part that's messed up. And so everybody clings to the how could our military— because of what I said earlier, how could they do that, right? And they cling to that. And so yes, it can be used that way. Just like when people say, uh, when we're overseas, so many people cheat. It'd be interesting. What number of people cheat that are in the corporate world that go do a year assignment overseas away from their partner? We don't know the numbers because there's no major organization that is tracking and seeing it happen. Well, the military is its own organization, and so it knows. Or you might not know those numbers are referring to now, but it knows this is happening. They know, you know, that they're trying to solve these things. So, but corporations are also separate We don't know how often that's happening. So what they make the mistake of is going in the military versus, hmm, what happens when couples are separated for a year overseas, particularly at very young ages? Because that's the other half of the military equation we haven't brought up. A lot of our military that are married are married very young compared to the rest of society, right? We know the average married couples nowadays is 24 to 35, but the US military They can be 18 to 22, and half of them can be married. So we're also trying to figure out our own maturity at those ages, our own understandings. And of course, everything else could happen more often— cheating, affairs, all this— because we don't know who we are yet, potentially, at those ages. Some people— and you're trying to figure things out. So it's way more than just military. It's all these factors playing in.

Well, it's such an incredible context to put this all into perspective, of that these are things that will show up anywhere and how much work we have to do as a society to continue contributing to the success and better outcomes.

Yeah, I mean, here's a way to think of it, Jason. Imagine if half of college students got married in college. What would be the divorce rates? Yeah, I mean, it would just be totally different. So that's why it is important.

Well, in communities where that is happening, how are we tracking, right? Let's say there's communities where they are like Midwest or more religious faith-based communities. Are we tracking that when it comes to these concerns and issues compared to like that's in the public eye because we're funding the government, we're not funding private marriage, we're not funding private relationships, we're funding the lives of these people. These are, for lack of better words, America's employees. And I agree with you that it is equivalent of what's showing up there is a subset of what's really going on in American culture or world culture as a whole. But they're really more under the microscope than everything else.

Yeah. Well, and even let's, okay, let's go to a culture where they marry young and they marry quickly, right? There's a few faith-based cultures where that exists and people go, but they don't get divorced. And there's a whole different ballgame there though, because they have a cultural understanding that you don't get divorced. So even if this is a very unhealthy, toxic, even violent relationship, divorce is worse. Divorce is worse, right? So there, so that is an unfair comparison. Because they'll go, well, the military, they're getting divorced over here. Well, you're also not taking into account all the negative aspects of them not getting divorced and how that's playing in and how that's showing up. So we have to be really careful of, of saying this culture and that culture and comparing them. They're not apples to apples, right?

Agreed. Agreed. So what are some of the really good resources? Obviously, you guys are doing some really, really amazing stuff. What are some of the resources for each of the communities that, should they be needing this, uh, like whether it's military or business or students, that can help them support themselves as they're, God forbid, going through a traumatic experience or the victim of a traumatic experience?

Yeah.

What are some of the resources out there that you are either in partnership with or would refer to?

I'll tell you the ones that we provide. So because they answer many of the questions you just asked, one is the book called Voices of Courage, which you can get for free on our website. And this book's been critically acclaimed. It's been out since 2005. It's 12 survivors sharing their stories. 10 women, 2 men, each take you from before the rape to after the rape to where they are today, written in their words. And you can go to our website and you can actually go into the shop in the store and you can buy a paperback. But if you look in that link, it says get it for free, download it for free right here. And you can download it for free, the ebook and the audiobook. The audiobook is the actual 12 survivors reading their chapters to you. Only book of its kind in the world still to this day. So if somebody's out there going, "Oh, I just wish I could hear from other survivors. I could hear how they moved forward." We know so many crisis centers that use this book because they can say, "Just read this one chapter. Listen to this one chapter." So that's an incredible resource. Or maybe a parent or family member is going, "I can't even imagine what my son or my daughter's thinking after what they experienced." They'll listen because they want to hear the mind of the survivor. All right, and so that's one great resource. That is when it's happened. Let's talk about trying to create relationships that are healthier, that are safer. Well, there we have a book called Can I Kiss You? Right, a thought-provoking look at dating, intimacy, and sexual assault. And it really looks at relationships, everything. And what's neat about the book is 12-year-olds to 50-year-olds use the book. So it's for all ages. Once you're in that age where you start thinking about these things, or you are in these things, It's all how-to. It's just jam-packed with how-to, and it's really common sense that we were never taught. Let me give you an example. A lot of people think, well, I, I can read body language. I can read body language. I go, great, you're on a date, you're holding someone's hands, getting sweaty. What does it mean? Oh, they're into you, right? They're nervous, they're into you. How about they're nervous and they're really uncomfortable and don't know how to get away from you? It will also get sweaty for the exact same reason. All right, you're on the same date, they put their hand on your leg when you're sitting next to them. Oh, they're into you. Nope, they're touchy. You don't know this, the reason for any of this. And the top body language experts in the world say, actually, and a couple of them are colleagues, who will say you can't read body language that way. What they teach is how to send body language that helps increase the odds their communication's understood. They don't teach reading body language because it takes all the context to understand it. So the book helps you realize, oh man, I just failed that body language test, I failed that one. So it takes you on a journey to get you to where you want to go, and that book's called Can I Kiss You? Now, a lot of parents use that for themselves and their kids, but we also have a video for parents called Help My Teen Is Dating. The mistake is we put the word teen in it. Honestly, that was a mistake because a lot of kids are starting to have these thoughts and discussions way before then, but it still applies for them. So these are all resources that are available at centerforrespect.com.

Awesome. So if we can wrap up everything And I kind of have this as my on one foot question, that if we can distill all of your wisdom that you've gained and you shared, and if you were to meet someone on the street that you connected with and you would want to give that over to them and you knew you would never see them again, in 2 minutes, what would you be sharing with them?

If there is anything you can do in your life for the rest of your life Honor choice. Give it to others. Respect the answer. Know that you, oh, you deserve it always and that you deserve to be able to make a choice without guilt. Know that when someone gives you a choice in life, whether you say yes or no, that should not come with shame or guilt. It's because that's what you chose to do in that moment and that's a choice you make and that choice is at the heart of everything. And so that's what I would just ring home with. Are you giving people choices? Are you honoring the fact you deserve choices? It goes both ways, right? Because if I'm giving everybody else choices, but I don't ever expect to be treated with choices, I'm not giving myself respect, and I deserve to respect myself at all times.

Awesome, awesome. So for everybody who's been listening out there and they wanted to tap into these incredible resources, please check out more about Mike at the www.centerforrespect.com. On Instagram, you can be found at Mike Respects.

Yes, no one wants to try to spell my last name, so Mike Respects is much easier to find.

And then Facebook is Center for Respect, and YouTube, there's a lot of great videos as well at the Center for Respect. Mike, I really want to thank you for sharing this important topic with us today. And for listeners out there, if you found any value in this, if you know someone that you may know about and care about that has gone through a circumstance like this, or family member or a friend of someone who's gone through a circumstance like this or similar circumstances, please share this episode with them. Check out our other episodes, leave us a 5-star written review on iTunes so that can help us have more people find the value and the wisdom that my guests are bringing to share with us in the time that they're honoring us with. And Mike, again, thank you so much for spending your time with us tonight.

Thank you, Jason, for having me here. Appreciate it. Thanks for listening to the You Winning Life Podcast. If you are ready to minimize your personal and professional struggles and maximize your potential, we would love it if you subscribed so you don't miss an episode. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Jason Wasser LMFT 🎗️.