Ep.54- Donita Beth Wheeler: The Mama Bear Cancer Survivor

This is the You Winning Life podcast, your number one source for mastering a positive existence. Each episode, we'll be interviewing exceptional people, giving you empowering insights and guiding you to extraordinary outcomes. Learn from specialists in the worlds of integrative and natural wellness, spirituality, psychology, and entrepreneurship so you too can be winning life. Now here's your host, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified neuro-emotional technique practitioner, LMFT 🎗️ and certified entrepreneur coach Jason Wasser.

All right.

Hey everybody, welcome back. Today's guest is cancer coach Danita Beth Wheeler. She is also the host of the Mama Bear Podcast. She is a cancer survivor and an incredible, incredible person who I've gotten to know recently. Danita, thank you so much for hanging out with us today.

Absolutely. Glad to be on.

Awesome. So I know that there is so much going on in the world right now with this pandemic. And right off the bat, I'm finding that I'm hearing from people in the medical community that people are afraid to be going into their doctors and into the hospitals for any other type of checkups. And one of the things that I want to start off with is kind of like a public service announcement type of thing. What are— right off the bat, before we get into your story, but I want to like just heavy front load it. What are some of the things that people should be looking out for as signs and symptoms right off the bat that they absolutely completely should be going into a doctor despite what's going on in the world right now?

Well, I think if you're specific to cancer, I'm sure that you are on a plan with your doctor right now. That's what I'm understanding, that most people are on pretty tight with their doctor, and so they probably more than in the past have the ability— because when I was going through treatment, I had a little card that if I needed to go to the emergency room that put me like kind of at the I was at the front of the list, if you will. If I went in with my card, they isolated me immediately. They got me in 'cause they knew I was immune compromised and they do that. So it's my understanding that right now they have, oncologists are having pretty heavy conversations with their patients and they have a protocol to follow. So I'm assuming that you probably have a protocol and if you don't, then I think I would definitely call ahead and use the telemed that's available right now. 'Cause I know in Washington State where I am, the telemed's pretty, popular right now.

Yeah. So, thank you, because I really wanted to make sure that, like, people know that there are so many options. And before we get into your story, I want people not to be afraid that if they do need to take those necessary medical steps, there is incredible online options right now. There are actually many platforms that are actually covered by your insurance. So, I know if you are a Blue Cross Blue Shield person, if you're a network, that you can use Teladoc, and they're waiving all copays for anything through their Teladoc platform. So, for people out there who are like, afraid to go to a doctor and doctor's office, please leverage and network the online resources that we have now. So let's talk a little bit about you, right? You're originally a South Florida person, right? And now you're—

Yeah, I did.

I lived out in the West Coast.

I lived in South Florida for 15 years. I'm originally— I was born in South America. I lived there till I was about 3, and then I grew up in El Paso, Texas. Lived in Dallas for 20 years and then moved to South Florida for 15 years and then have been on the West Coast West Coast for a little while now, a couple months. And, you know, I have had cancer 5 times. I've been breast cancer, ovarian cancer, 2 kinds of skin cancer, skin cancer, non-melanoma malignant and melanoma skin cancer. So I am, I've had 11 surgeries and I did caretaking for my mother-in-law who passed away from non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma, and we were with her for about a year, about 7, 8 months. So we just dropped everything, left Florida, and moved to Tennessee. And I guess so I've really been gone from Florida about 2 years because we did spend a year in Tennessee and then come back, put our house, fix our house again, put it back on the market. Please go buy my house in Hollywood. And we came back out here. So we picked here. I think I told you, we chatted earlier, I told you my dad was from the West Coast and I really just love the West Coast and wanted to get back.

So yeah, so let's, let's go into this, this 5 times. And I know, um, one of them, it's like a 1% survival rate.

Yeah, that was the triple negative breast cancer. It was almost 12 years ago. The protocol is a little bit different now than it was then. Then it was a little bit more of a death sentence than it is now. Now it's up to about 20%, um, percent per chance, um, which, uh, triple negative just means that the, the 3 hormones are I don't know specifically it's 3, that it's the hormones, it's nonreceptive to hormones. So it's not a hormonally driven cancer. It's a like down and dirty cancer. And it comes about, you know, it could be environmental. I smoked, so I've always blamed it on that. I don't know that that's what caused it. We don't have any family history. We don't have anything that would have genetically given it to me. So I just kind of go with that. Say, you know, don't smoke. But I don't know that that's what caused it. But, um, you know, the, the treatment was pretty, pretty tough. And it was, uh, I just needed that 1% because I'm that person, you know, like, oh, only 1% of the population gets it. Like with COVID I'm not being sarcastic or anything, but I probably won't get it because it's very popular.

So you only do the unpopular things, right?

The more challenging.

Buck the trend, buck the trend. Yeah, the more challenging. So are you one of those people that like kind of took like the more challenging things all throughout your life?

Is that kind of— Oh, not by choice. I seem to be thrown into that. It's, I guess I'm non-competitive and the spirits need me to be a little bit more competitive. So I'm like, okay, I'll take it up a notch.

Yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure. So 1%, right? So one of the things that you and I discussed in our, the first time we met was the modality neuro-emotional technique. That I do, right? And it's a mind-body protocol that came out of chiropractic, but a lot of therapists have been using it for the last many years. And they've been doing some insane research using this modality through Jefferson Medical School to treat and heal the post-traumatic stress from cancer patients and cancer survivors. And we know that, like, just because that someone might be in remission doesn't mean that the stress and the trauma doesn't live on with them. And we found that within 3 to 5 sessions of using this modality, that not only are we having the people who went through the protocol feel radically, radically better, a decrease in the symptoms, if not a removal of their symptoms. But we also know that the brain changed, and we have pre- and post-functional MRI scans. So I'm really curious to know, like, I know so many people that have gone through so many traumas, and we all like to think of ourselves at some level as a strong person. But is it okay if you share a few moments of like, what was that original moment of diagnosis like and that experience right after that for you? Because I know a lot of people have gone through this and a lot of people unfortunately are going to go through this, to know that what they might be feeling and what it might be like for them in those initial moments and those initial days and weeks.

I think when I was first diagnosed, like when I went in, I had been struggling for a while with feeling very tired, feeling very emotional, wondering what was going on with me. I thought, you know, I had just turned 40, so I thought, well, maybe this 40. Maybe I just don't, you know, things aren't going well for me in my 40s. I couldn't kick it. I couldn't get my energy levels up. I tried, like, you know, all the logical things. So when I went to the doctor, I was sitting next to this lady and she was like, I think I'm going to be diagnosed with cancer. And I was like, OK, first of all, hi, nice to meet you. And second of all, wow, that was a lot for the second sentence of knowing you. I said, well, why do you— and then in my typicalness, why I'm called Mama Bear, I grabbed her hand and I said, let's just have a moment. Let's— I need you to calm down a little bit. Let's get your heart rate down. Let's get your nerves settled. Let's kind of calm down. And it turns out she was diagnosed with cancer that day. And so was I. And so it was when I got in the car. Well, when I— I don't know if you know the procedure. What they do is they go in and they do a like a mammogram first, which is where they smush it and take pictures. And then when they find something in there, they'll come back and they say, okay, we found something. You may have dense breast tissue. We're going to do an ultrasound. So they come in and they put the goo all over you. It's warm. That's nice. And they go— well, so she went like right over and she goes, oh. And then I was like, oh, that didn't sound good. And you could tell it was innate. Like, she didn't mean to do it. You could tell it was an accident. And so I didn't say anything and I was like, and she, and she just got very serious and kind of looked really, started pushing really hard. And finally I was like, are you looking for something? And she said, um, I, yeah, I need to find what I saw when I first came on. And I said, okay, well, it was, I think it was like right here. And I moved the thing down a little bit and she found it. She said, we're going to have to have to do a biopsy. So they do the biopsy right there. They make you wait for like, and it's not they make you wait. They're not like being mean and saying, oh my gosh, what can I— how uncomfortable can I make these people? It's more that that's the procedure. So you have to wait and you wait and you wait in the cold waiting room with the goo still on you and it's not warm anymore. And you, you know what I have— sorry about that. And I, you know, you, you sit there and you wait and, you know, like you instinctively just know. And so they did the biopsy. It was really late in the afternoon, like 5:00. And They came back and they said, we're going to have to call you tomorrow morning with the results. The radiologist, it's too late in the afternoon. And so I got home and I didn't say much to my family because I just thought, wow. But I knew. And I— but in a way, it was almost a relief because then I understood why I was feeling the way I felt like I had been battling cancer the whole time. So that's why I was so tired. And it was nice to know. But then once that passed, once the feeling of, okay, I know what's going on now passed, then the fear crept in. And my kids were little. They were, they're not tiny. They were in 8th and 10th grade, but it was the summer and, or we were going into the summer and they would be going into those grades. But it was, you know, you just take pause and you think, oh, I, I've got to live. Like I can't, not live. So that was kind of, for me, it was kind of like in hindsight, I just had a book come out called Bear Myself and it's my story including like my suicide attempt and things like this. Like I went dark and deep for a long time and people are like, you're so brave, you're so strong, you did all these things. I'm like, this is 12 years out, people, 12 years. Right. Lots of therapy, 12 years and you know, like several failed relationships, not personal, like romantic relationship, but friend relationships and just, you know, lots of stuff in between the first diagnosis and today.

So, yeah, so there's the stigmas that have come up, right? So we have this like physical side of things that you were going through and having to get tested and how you were feeling emotionally and energetically and those things, but the mental health side of it, it's one of those things that like people really don't get the intensity of what's going on. And on one side, people might be, you know, and tell me if this has been your experience, but from the friends that I know that have gone through it, it's like either people are like over-compassionate, right, and over-sympathetic and like very doting to the point where it takes away a lot of the person's empowerment, or they're kind of like, I don't want to talk about it, I want to ignore it, as if like nothing has ever happened.

Yeah. Oh yeah, no, I had both. And I deal better with the overbearing people because, you know, you can hug them and they The great thing about overbearing people is their time span is very typically short because they're nervous and they do it quickly. But it is constant. And I was okay-ish with that, but it was the, "I don't wanna have anything to do with you" part that threw me completely for a loop because that's not the kind of friend that I was used to having. And that's, I mean, I've talked about it before. This is not a new thing that I've talked about. But my, some roommates from college, they just like kind of bailed on me. And it wasn't because they were being mean or because they met, they couldn't handle it, but it took me years to figure that out. And it was very hurtful.

So what are some tips based on, right? If someone is a friend to someone going through this, what are some of the tips right off the top of your head that you would say, right? If you're uncomfortable, if you're afraid, whatever, what, like what's some, What are some thoughts that you can share with them to say, like, here's how you can handle this for your friend and be there for your friend?

Well, you might want to contact the spouse that's in charge of everything because if me, I was on my back and out, so I had no idea really what was going on after my, you know, the chemo treatments. So you might want to see, like, you know, don't wait to do something, do something. If the child is standing on the curb and it's obvious that no one's there to pick them up, Bring the child home. If you know it looks like they— if you know that their favorite cake is, you know, key lime pie, make key lime pie and leave it on the counter, leave it outside and give them a little text that says, hey, it's outside, go put it inside. You know, talk to them when they want to talk. If they don't feel like talking or they don't bring it up, you know, just say, hey, I know you had a treatment, we can talk about it when it's comfortable for you or whatever. Acknowledge it, don't ignore it, but don't push it. You know, it's that fine line of Like a friend of mine had her, she had one of the cold caps and the other friends went and got the dry ice every time. And that was a huge relief for her. So, you know, just little things that you don't think of, maybe hiring a maid service to come in and clean the house. Maybe take the dry cleaning in one day and have all that done. You know, precook some meals. If you cook dinner for your family, maybe cook it for theirs, put it in the freezer. Particular, put directions written on it, and then keep it in your freezer and just pop it over, you know, because they're going to go through times— the patient's going to go through times where they're going to say yes and be weak. I need it. I want that. I need that. I please need your help. And then they're going to go through times where they want to feel strong. And so when they want to feel strong, then go have coffee with them or do— but if they say— my biggest thing was I'm not supposed to drink. I mean, I don't have like a reason not to, but other than it can bring cancer back. And so when I'm not drinking, my friends are like, "You can just have one." And I'm like, "I can't just have one. I can't do that chemo again." You know, like, so that— or my least favorite thing is when people say, "You done with your chemo? Are you done with your radiation?" They're like, "Oh, you're all done." You're like, "What? I'm not all done." Right.

And it's all over. Nothing happened. Move on. Nothing to see.

I just started my survivorship. So how do you want me to— how do you want me to just— it's just crazy how people do act. But I think because cancer is so quote unquote popular right now, people have come a long way too. And one thing somebody did for me is when they brought me the food, they included the recipe, which was really a nice thing. Because my kids were like, I like that. You don't have to have the brain power to say, "Who brought that? Where's the recipe? Let me call them and ask them," you know, that kind of thing. Of course, this was 12 years ago before Pinterest. You could Google everything.

Right, for sure, for sure. Yeah, so it's— the support system thankfully is growing, right? It's 2020 right now. And we definitely want to allow, you know, the positiveness, right, of what people are doing out there, all these amazing resources and organizations. But you're doing something incredibly unique. You have become a cancer coach.

Yep.

So tell us about that. What is that? Because coaching, you know, people know my love-hate in this belief about coaches and coaching. And I just put a post the other day about— I got bombarded somehow on my Facebook. There was 3 different advertisements: become a coach for $25 in 16 hours. Like, right? Go figure. But I know you're doing something so unique and so special. So like, what got you to wanting to do that? And then let's talk about like some of those experiences that you've had.

What got me to do it was the, the, I was working in a yoga studio. I love that experience. It was a wonderful experience, but I was getting paid like $10 an hour. And I went to college and I raised my kids and I'm an educator at heart. I taught first grade and I come from a long line of educators. And I just, I just thought deep in my heart that I had to do more. I had to do more to help other people. So I felt very lonely and scared and sad. I didn't want to give my feelings to my family when I was going through because I was just going to add to their anxiety and the things that they were feeling. So I kind of kept all that inside where I kind of wished I had somebody that I could talk to. It was a little bit neutral, that didn't defend my friends when they were like, you know, oh, they didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Um, okay. You know, like somebody who's just there and kind of understands what's going on. And so that's between the yoga studio and I'm with you with the coaching thing. I like, my friend of mine calls it cancer doula and I was like, oh yeah, I like that word better.

That's beautiful actually.

Yeah, it's clever. And I thought there's so many clever names now for coaches and coaching. And it's funny because you and I met through Mike who is my COO. So he runs, you know, all the operations and everything for Mama Bear. And I've been telling him like, you know, how do we get away from the mainstream coach thing? So, you know, I want to be there for people. I want to do this because this grew from my heart. This didn't grow from my pocketbook. And so, I mean, sure, money on the side is great. Will I make a fortune on a book? Probably not. Everybody has a book now. You know, just, just, you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's heartfelt. And what I want to do is eventually have like centers that you can go to, maybe, you know, in your recovery, regardless of where you are, any need that you might have physically, emotionally, if you're nutritionally, you know, things like that. Anything that you might need, I would like to have available at this particular location and have them nationwide, possibly worldwide. Because my nephew is going— just finished chemo in New Zealand. So I would love to have a— yeah, you know how they have the Ronald McDonald House, something like that, the Mama Bear House. So the Mama Bear Den. So, you know, that's my ultimate goal. I got a long way to go, but you know, it's, I really have a big goal in mind and I'm 52, you know, I'm not young. So, but we were joking the other day in 50s now is, you know, really, really still quite good. I mean, I plan to live to 100, so I got another, I got another 40 whatever years to get all this done easily.

Well, and one of the things that I really enjoy hearing you say is that you have this much bigger vision, and there's a brand that comes along with this. And the more you talk about it, the more you— you said like, well, I'm very far away from it, but the more you talk about this, and I really want this to be, um, something that impacts everybody out there that's listening to this, is that if you have an idea, you can't keep it to yourself, because our goal is to find like-minded people who are sharing like-minded ideas, and you're gonna find partners. In this process, right? So the more we talk about what we love and what we want to put out in the world, you might find someone who says, I'm incredibly passionate about that. I can throw some money. I don't have the time to get involved, but let me throw some money at you to help you get this done, right? So I'm hoping that like the more you talk about this, the more you, the more you put it out there, that is that if you guys know anybody in the world that's listening to this or will listen to this, that if there's someone out there who is a passionate supporter of helping people going through this experience to reach out to Danina and say like, hey, like, I want to get involved. Like, how can we make this happen? And I really love the idea of being kind of like a wholesale experience of like, you can get all these things taken care of in one place for you.

Well, and I would love to, yeah, include like a therapist like yourself, you know, like somebody that's at the broad spectrum that has more than just one point of view. And like, you know, all of the— I would love to have a— thank you for that shout out. I would love to have like a a condo building, you know, 'cause I think that we're gonna have a few extras coming in a while. And take a condo building and make it multi-generational where you can drop your parent off in memory care, drop your kid in daycare, run downstairs to the organic store, pick up, you know, pack the vitamins and, you know, like get going onto your job. And maybe you have a media room in your house because you work from home. So, you know, just, and you can go up to your floor and it all be in one building or bridge over to the other building, you know, like these, and my husband's in real estate. So we talk about these ideas all the time and I really, I feel like very strongly that at one point in time it will happen. So, you know.

Well, you're talking about intentional living and intentional living communities and I know there's a whole world out there and experts who are about that, like how do you create a community where it's around a like-minded shared vision and philosophy and approaches and it becomes something where everything is on-site and you might go out for a job or whatever, right, off-site, but like everybody's kind of collaborating with a like-minded thing. To have that as an intentional community for people who are going through this specific experience is very cool. And it's something that we're going through right now that everything has moved digitally and we've all had to pivot very quickly with what's going on. So the world, even though we had social media and technology, but starting like end of March and all through this month of April, everything is online. And, you know, I don't know if when we were talking the other day for the first time, I don't know if I shared this with— I'm never going to go back to a private practice medicine doctor, primary care physician again in person.

Yeah, there's no way.

Right. And I have my— I have a family member, my uncle is a family practice private practitioner, right? But I— and I have friends who are— like, I'm never going to do it again. Like, if I can go online, wait 12 minutes for someone to pop on, and from the time I push the button button to be on hold for an appointment to the time I pick up a potential prescription is 45 minutes door-to-door, right? Round trip, starting that process to coming back home took me 45 minutes. Then I'm never, ever, ever going to be going to a practitioner in person again if I don't have to for any type of actual physical exam that takes place.

Well, they even have that thing where you walk in and you just put your— like you do your body like this and it does your blood pressure and all your everything and you're like, Okay, isn't it interesting how like everybody's like, I can't work Zoom, I can't do this, but yet in a pandemic, even my mother who's 80 years old is on her Zoom call tomorrow for 9 hours. I was like, oh, so even you found technology.

Exactly. And funny enough, if someone wants to like, we talk about like the word that I've been using a lot with everybody is the pivot. If someone is really good in technology and you know, like you're right, you're right, South Florida, so you know we have a significant senior citizen population. If you can find a way to get in front of 5, 10, 15, 20 senior citizens, or you know someone in that population, you say, give me all of your friends' numbers and I'm going to personally call each one. And for $20, $30, whatever it is, $10, $15, I'll make an arbitrary number. I'm going to teach them how to use all of their technology within an hour. Someone is going to make a killing.

Oh yeah, right. They will.

On use, right? It's like there's so many things right now that people can do. When they're saying, "Oh, I'm a victim to all this. Oh, this sucks." Yes, this completely, completely sucks. And yes, people are working in certain industries have gotten completely wiped out, but now's the time to pivot and be creative. And I think the story of healing, and I'm assuming you'll agree with me, the story of healing through anything is about how creative can you get in the time of what you're going through.

Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. I painted my entire inside of my house. When I was recovering. Like, that's how I recovered. But I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm— we talked about this— I'm an ENFJ or something like that. So I was like, but I'm very introverted, but I binge on extrovertness, which is funny, which is like— I— but it's funny, like, I'm, I'm okay being alone until I'm not, and then I'm like, okay, I'm done, let's go do something fun, you know?

Like, right. And as an ENFJ— everybody, so if people don't know what we're talking about, we're talking about the Myers-Briggs personality test. It's a really, really cool, insightful way to kind of see some of your character traits and how you handle things and how you look at the world. And the E is for an extrovert, but it's funny, like you and I, I think are very similar. We're actually probably ambiverts, right? We have that both introvert and extrovert where we need both, right? We need our chill time and whatever. And then we can like, right, get the energy, recharging our batteries from being out in public. But I think like people now, like especially with what's going on, there's a duality of pressure. With the COVID experience. On one side, there's all these things of like, you have all this time to go tackle these things you've never tackled before. You should be working out and you should be eating healthier and you should be learning a new language and you should be learning how to bake and you should have a— you should now have an Instagram and posting all this stuff and build a following. And on the other side, it's like, geez, like, okay, just like, it's okay to like take a nap and relax.

You can just have an extra cup of coffee and you can put— you can change your slippers to go in your commute downstairs. That's what you can I look at my work attire right now.

I mean, like, and it's funny because I had an immediate pivot within 24 hours to make a decision of to pull my practice fully online. And it really, like, thankfully there was no flaws or no snafus with it. And 99% of my clients, like, were like, yeah, that's fine, like, not an issue. And day one, I wore a polo. Day two, I was in a t-shirt. And I'm joking with everybody that are talking, they're like, oh my gosh, like, you know, what's it like to not have to go to your office? I'm like, I haven't worn pants in almost 5 weeks now. Like, I'm wearing shorts. I'm wearing shorts. But like, like, I literally haven't worn pants in 5 weeks. And it's kind of like, yeah, I'm in Miami, so it's great. But, but, but I'm literally— everything is stripped away. And the real connection of how can we be of service to each other? How can we be of value to each other? How can we uplift each other is really the most utmost importance. And I think that rings true when anybody is going through a medical emergency as well.

Oh yeah. And definitely like with medical emergencies too, you know, you, you, and now you actually have the hammock, you know, the support of the telemed and the things that at your fingertips more so than you did before all of this. So, you know, before you had to get maybe uncomfortable and get dressed and like, I know, I know when I went in for my my shot in my stomach, I think it's called Neuplasia, that they give you that shot in your stomach. I know for me to get in that car, and I lived on, you know, Northlake and I had to drive to Johnson. So it wasn't that far. It was like under 3 miles, but I just, you thought I had to go 200 miles to get that shot. And it, you know, and I think it's a good, I think it's a good thing because I think stripping down to your no pants you know, shorts. There's nothing wrong with that. I think the facade that you put on every day that you get dressed and you're this different person at work than you are at home is probably, I don't know, you can tell me here. It seems like a lot of struggle, you know, like now you can kind of be yourself and you can adjust accordingly in a positive way, like a growing way, you know, like, you know, like on a Zoom call, it's funny 'cause you're like, I'm ready early. I'm like, I'm not, I still gotta put my mascara on. You're like, I'm in a hat. Girls. I gotta go put my mascara on.

Those things still haven't gone out the door yet, but like, you know.

I was like—

Give it time.

I still have to do it. But it was funny 'cause when I was doing it, I was like, oh, that's fine. You can't see that close up. You know what I mean? Like, you can't see so close to your face 'cause the camera's right there. So you have to, so I'm a little bit more forgiving of myself, you know, like, oh, my hair doesn't look that great, but nobody looks that great right now. So the competition level of, you know, that, facade of having to keep it together and be something that you're not really, that you do on a day-in and day-out basis, which makes your insides so tight and makes your body work so much for things that really aren't achieving that much. I personally think that all that good energy can go towards healing, like now. And I just saw like the Today Show, they did something on sleep. And I remember I used to get about 3 hours of sleep because I was that mom. I don't know if you've seen Reese Witherspoon's Little Fires Everywhere, but like I was that mom. I was the one with I was all like the calendar from hell, the mom who had everything organized. I was at every event. I was like the mom they were like, "Oh God, what's she gonna ask for now? Here she comes." You know, like that was me. That was my full-time job was being like in the middle of everything. And then when I got sick and I was taken to my back for, you know, 6 months in the bed, I realized that I'm really not that important, but I'm important to who I need to be important to. And that for me, so to me, this isolation is the third time. Like it's the third time I've had to do this. So I'm like, "Yeah, sure, okay, whatever." I got this under control. But it's interesting when the whole world does it with you and you're like, and I've seen some memes that say like, well, now maybe people with terminal illness or with, what's it called when you have it all the time? Not terminal because that's death.

Recurrent or chronic.

Chronic, that's what I was looking for. Chronic illness, maybe you'll understand now. Maybe when you say, I'm sorry, my whatever's acting up, I can't go. Maybe the understanding level will be a lot higher. And you know, the pressure to be something that you're not while you're sick, maybe that'll be a little bit better too, you know.

Right, so it's the gentleness, right? If we want to be playful with the terms, right, it's the patience and the gentleness that we have to have with each— with ourselves, um, and even more so with the other people in our lives. I, I was on a podcast call before this, which— for someone else's podcast, and, and we were talking about the couples that are going through this whole stress pattern. And the one thing I want to keep repeating to everybody is that the person sitting next to you while you're quarantining or in isolation is not at fault for all this. And even more so, my guess is that when someone is going through a very challenging, significant illness, in a way, I feel like there's a lot of similarities. And again, I'm from an outsider's perspective, but there's a lot of similarities to what we're going on through right now in general to what it's like for someone to be quarantined at home. They can't do all these things. And therefore, like, all these extra burdens add up and you're put into survival mode.

Yeah, well, and I believe survivor starts the day your actual physical treatment stops. You know, like, that you enter survivorship and it's basically like, it's the hardest part. I mean, you did the action, you already have a game plan. Like, you go to the doctor, they tell you exactly what you're going to do, how you're going to do it, what's going to happen. They know all your side— you know, you might have something new that they have to deal with or figure out, but that you're very regulated and everything is very normal. Then you get— then when you're done, you ring the bell and you go home, you're like You see, it's like that on Friday afternoon, or it's like when you graduate from high school or college, you're like, "Okay, that was anticlimactic. What now?" You know, but then the rest opens up, right? And then that's just with survivorship. Like, you enter survivorship with this whole entire new thought process. You're a different person. You're physically different. You're emotionally different. You have a bunch of scars emotionally, physically, you know, it's just a different situation. And the survivorship is where the growth occurs. It's where, you know, it's where you figure out, like, you know, not everybody, but I would— I happen to surround myself with a lot of people who are deep in denial.

Not on—

not intentionally, it just seems to be the family pattern. And so when, you know, like, denial doesn't play well with with cancer. They don't go well together. And I saw that with my mother-in-law who, was I telling you, she used to go to the doctor every Friday. Every Friday she would tell the doctor, "Well, hi, it's nice to see you. I'm not sure why I'm here." And he would say, "Well, you have cancer." And she would say, "Oh, well, if I had something, you would just give me a pill. I'm fine." Like, ooh, okay. That's some serious, really good denial.

Those rose-colored glasses, right? That— A lot of people need to live that way, unfortunately, in that self-protective mechanism, but it doesn't put you into proactive state, right? It's either— if you're completely avoiding and completely oblivious is one thing, but then we have the denial stage, right, of just, "I'm not going to handle it. It's going to go away by itself," minimizing, right? And then you have the people on the other side of the coin who are maximizing, right? Everything now is horrible. Everything else is going to go wrong. If this happened to me, what else is going to happen? Happened to me. And right, we're all predisposed to our psychological, whatever, you know, things that are going to show up in certain ways. But it's, you know, from my perspective of having worked with numerous clients who've gone through this experience, either during it or post, is, you know, building that support system, not just of friends and of family members and really getting people who are proactive and informed, you know, on what to do, you know, but, you know, the therapeutic process. Of making sure they do have someone that is well-versed in this type of healing. And, you know, trauma is trauma is trauma. The narrative is gonna be different. And again, I'm not diminishing one's experience from another, but right there is the trauma connection runs deep no matter what.

Yeah, and you can't really gauge anybody else's trauma. You have to really, like, just work on your— And I think the denial is great. I've learned to use it in certain times too. Like it doesn't have— it's not all bad. It's just, I guess my survivorship made me dive really deep into who I really was because I did not want to do it again. Turns out I had to do it 4 more times. But at that moment in time, I really, really didn't want to. And when I was diagnosed, when I had my second hysterectomy, I had 2 hysterectomies because that's always fun. And the second one was when I tried to commit suicide. And I'm— when I tried to tell people, like I tried to tell my mom or my best friend, they were like— it was so uncomfortable and they couldn't handle it. So they just— we just didn't have the conversation. They were like, oh, that's not true. That's probably not what happened. You're like, well, I'm glad you're not a therapist because like, that's definitely not the answer you want to hear. You know, like, because I was wondering why I tried it too. You know, like for me, it was more like a dream. I woke up on on the beach with a brick in my hand and I was like, what is happening right now? Why am I at the beach? Why do I have a brick in my hand? Why am I standing at the water? You know, what is going on with me? And it was just, it was so clarifying. It was so clear to me what I needed to do from that point forward. And I always say this joking to kind of cut the seriousness, but you know, I was a really good swimmer. Brick? Really? Like, no one's gonna take me out.

But if you think about it, like, your fight-or-flight part of your brain is really, you know, it's not the problem-solving part of the brain, it's the survival instinct brain. So you're right, your rational brain's like, yeah, that's— yeah, I'll be able to get my way out of this. But the other part of like, I don't know if I can survive, you know, I don't want to necessarily survive this anymore, right? That would make sense, right? Where there is a juxtaposition between your rational brain and your non-rational part of your brain fighting against each other. But the survivorship of feeling in that dark, that place, right? That, again, stigma and people like, oh, you had these suicidal thoughts and suicidal tendencies. And like, like, I so want to take a few minutes, if that's okay with you, with your permission, to like just unpackage that space. Because right now, unfortunately, we're hearing about medical practitioners who have taken their life because of the COVID situation. And we know that there's people at home who've lost jobs or going through whatever they're going through, and they're isolated, and they're not able to talk to people or connect with people of all ages that are feeling significant despair and possible thoughts of suicide. So what helped and how can people identify that it really, this is something very serious? It's not just like, oh yeah, I'm thinking about it. Like, yeah, it's, I'm overwhelmed. But like, how do you know you really do need help and what can they do in that moment?

I think with me, my biggest hurt came in telling people, you know, like there's that line you always hear, oh, mental illness, is so quiet. You know, several of my son's friends committed suicide. You know, it was weird. He was 19 and had like 4 kids commit suicide in his age group, which is a lot. I grew up with a family in El Paso that everybody except for 2 members committed suicide, and that was a big story. And my biggest hurt was in trying to tell people, look, I wanted to take my life. I don't know exactly why, but like you said, the stigma, the judgment, the not wanting to talk about it. People don't want to talk about about it. And you know, I try to open the dialogue and say, no, like I bring it up almost every interview I'm with. One of my people in my life said to me, "Are you trying to get attention?" And I was like, "No, you pretty much want the opposite of attention when you're trying to commit suicide." Like literally no one speak to me and no one talk to me for a span of time that I can disappear and you won't notice for a little while. You know, that is— It was more the people who would talk to me about it that weren't medical professionals, that were like in my life by choice, and the people who would address it and the people who would say, "Well, why do you think that happened? Are you okay now? Are you okay?" Like, I still have a friend who asked me, this was almost 2 years ago. Yeah, it was just 2 years ago, April. Mm, like second. I'm trying to think when that was, but, you know, I still have people say, "Are you okay? Are you okay? Are you doing okay?" And they're so kind in their delivery that I know that they're not being judgmental, that they genuinely care. But out of, let's say if I have 100 friends, 2 ask me. So, you know, I think the worst is when your family doesn't want to talk about it. You know, my kids were like, "No, Mom." And I get my kids, I get it. I understand why they don't want to talk I don't about it. want to talk about it. My mom couldn't talk about it. And I understand. I understand that relationship. My husband would have talked about it if I had pushed it, but he is the son of the mother who never had cancer. So I know my limitations. But I think when you're going through that and you do have the— you're not successful, it's not necessarily a cry for attention or help. Help. Maybe, or I don't know, medically it may be, you may know that better. But from my personal perspective, I didn't want any attention or help right then. I wanted to understand what was happening to me on the inside because I didn't understand. And I didn't understand, you know, why I kept getting knocked down. Why would I get one more diagnosis? Why did I have to have 2 hysterectomies? Why did I have to go through menopause 3 times? Why do I have to be the person that has to do it multiple, multiple times? It's like, I'm not that slow of a learner. I can learn stuff and I had good grades and I was good in my class, you know, like, why does this keep happening? And then you— then people are like, well, get over yourself. It's just this vicious circle that goes around and around.

There's a lot of contradictions that it seems, right? It's, it's, it's— you say this, but don't ask— but don't— you can say this, right, as the person going through it, But people think like, "Well, I shouldn't ask that," and "You shouldn't say this," and "They shouldn't say that," right? Like there's all these different variables that are going on. And like in anything, people are just afraid to make someone like not like them for doing the wrong thing, right? If you're some level of consciousness, right? Like, "I don't want to offend you. I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to trigger you. I don't want to push your buttons." But there really is no one-size-fits-all except for like, ask what's okay. Ask what's okay to talk about. Ask— and I tried to couch language a few minutes ago, Mike, is it okay with your permission to unpack that a little bit more? I wanted to make sure because we didn't pregame plan this part of the conversation. And if you said no, I'd be like, okay, great, let's move on to the next thing. So, right.

I would give you my new— I've learned how to be nicely passive-aggressive and just not do what you It's a new talent I'm learning up here. It's definitely different from the East Coast, I'll tell you that.

Yeah. Well, are you finding that there's parts of your personality that have become— I don't even want to use the word resilient because I believe that like in this scenario of everything you've been through is kind of a watered-down term for this. But like, are you finding that there's parts of your personality that in the healthier ways are stronger and more efficient and more effective?

Oh yes, definitely for me, because I was a yes person. So now, um, I mean, it's not convenient for anybody else because they don't like me not being a yes person, but, you know, yeah, I am. I, I definitely think that I— my personality, I've grown. I did so much inner, inner work in the last 10 years. I mean, I, I joked— I'm not joking. I mean, I think I told you off the— off this that I've been in therapy since I was like I don't know, maybe 12, 11, 12.

Wait, and you're not done yet? What's wrong with you?

Done? No.

How are you not fixed?

Right?

But that's the stigma, right? Again, talking about stigmas and being playful. Like, what do you mean you have a therapist that you keep going back to at different points in your life?

Yeah, no. Yeah. And like, and it's funny because with me that I'm like a chronic therapist, like I have all these different ones, but they serve different purposes. Things. And lately, the one that I work the most with is my spiritual, um, my spiritual counselor, because that's the growth that has taken the most growth for me. I looked inside me and I, I took all the labels that everybody else had given me my whole life and I put them over here in a pile. And then I, when I did me, I would pull out the labels that still worked, and if they didn't work, they went straight to the trash. And you know, that's, that's what I needed to do for me.

Yep. Well, what's that joke? Labels are only meant for clothing.

Yeah, right.

But then I'll add, but unless you have like sensitive skin, then like there should be no labels whatsoever, right? Most of us are like actually sensitive human beings, right? We should just get rid of all those labels.

And that's like, I had always been told, you're too sensitive, you're too— stop being so sensitive, stop being so, you know, this is ridiculous. And now come to find out, giggle giggle, being in, in therapy my whole life there's such thing as a highly sensitive person, which I have. So I was like, why did that never come up the last time?

For sure. And I've actually been plotting and planning to eventually do an episode on the HSPs. So it's, uh, there's a lot of debate about that, right? And one of the myths, just to like debunk it, I was in a Facebook therapist Facebook group the other day and that came up. And, you know, again, the intuitive or the, you know, highly sensitive person, is there anything there that's connected to that, right? But someone's like, oh, that just means that you probably have really poor boundaries. And I was like, wow, like way to like project a lot of your own crap on that one, right? Coming from a therapist, right? It was such an interesting, right, how all of these different energetic personalities are misunderstood. So yeah, definitely for those of you out there that are listening and you know, you're like, what's an HSP? Like do some, you know, I love, just go Google, go Google highly sensitive persons, right? And the intuitive person, right? There's one of my favorite stories is I had a client years ago, and I'll quote books and movies and like, you know, songlines. And there was one thing I'd never— well, sometimes I'll use similar stuff, you know, but I once said to this person, like, "My God, you sound like The Little Engine That Could." And the person's face turned white. And I'm like, "I'm sorry, did I offend you?" They're like, "No, one of my family members wrote that book." No way. No way. And I'm like, okay, that was weird because I've never used or quoted that line ever in the process.

Right.

So, so, and I've had other crazy wild experiences that I'm like, okay, why am I saying this? Why do I feel compelled to say or ask this question? And yeah, so whether that's right, intuitive or highly sensitive person, whatever, I don't really care. Again, going back to a label, but I feel like as healers, right? As healers, and we all need to be healed, we have to be in touch with that.

Yes, absolutely. And we definitely have to, um, you know, you have to be aware of— I think my biggest thing that I learned was that I did learn boundaries with the highly sensitive person, but I learned it for myself, you know? Like, I learned that I am sensitive, and if, if I mentally stop before I go into Like, this is how I learned how effective I was. My mother-in-law, you know, the one who didn't have cancer, she would be sitting on the couch and I could tell, like, her hip would hurt or hit. I could tell exactly where it hurt. And I would say, oh, I'm sorry that such and such hurts. Well, how do you know that? I didn't say anything about that. It doesn't hurt. And then later in the day, she would say, oh, my so-and-so hurts because she had some memory issues. Issues. And I would say, "Oh yeah." And I would just look over at my husband like, "Mm, I told you." And that's when I finally realized my full potential of actually absorbing energies that are around me. And it infuriates people that you're in the room with. It infuriates them because it's like you take their curtain away and you're like, "I can see straight through you." But it's not fun to do that.

And you can't BS me. At that point, right? That's the thing you don't want to like, you know, really throw in their face either.

It's hard. It's a hard balance. It's hard not to be like, oh, okay, whatever. But I got some practice with her because she did have the memory issues and we were stuck inside for 7 months. We didn't go anywhere or do anything. So I got to kind of perfect that. And it really showed me that and you observe, it's really a good way to kind of get your place in wherever you are.

Exactly, exactly. One of my favorite, favorite, favorite crazy stories happened when I was working— before I was in my own private practice, I was working in a group practice, and I met— my office door would walk right out into the hallway where the checkout was for the clients before they went back into the waiting room. And I was walking out, I was done with my guest, either I didn't have a session or I was— whatever it was, but there was another therapist-client waiting there that I would see and right around, and I would always say hello to everybody. And I walked by them and all of a sudden I had this massive throbbing pain in my forehead and in the back of my, like, the right side. I remember specifically, it was like the top of my head above my hairline in the back right, like my occiput area, right? The back right here. And I turn around and I'm like, I'm so sorry to bother you. Do you have a headache right now? And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, yeah, like, I don't know, like, I know it's weird. And like, I'm like, but do you have a really bad headache here and here? And like, how did you know? I'm like, yeah, just ignore me. Like, I just picked it up by walking by you. And I just kept going. And like, who knows how many therapy sessions that person had to have about that, right? But like, you know, got to keep them coming for the for the other, for the team. But like, I was like, what the heck was that? Like, that was probably one of the first big things where I'm realizing like, okay, there's something energetically going on that I got to tap into and maybe, you know, protect myself, whatever that means when they talk about that in hippie dippie terms. But like, I had no clue of these things being, you know, I'm like, I'm gonna ask you questions and I'll help you figure it out. But like, energy sensitive people exist out there. And that's probably why a lot of people get stuck in such a deep and dark and negative place is because they're not mindful that they might be so energy sensitive in that a lot of that stuff isn't theirs.

Well, and if you've been picking it up since you were a kid and you didn't know it, you got a lot of luggage on you that has nothing— it's like you live in lost and found.

And I do have this kind of like psycho-spiritual belief that like that causes disease. And like if it's the toxicity enough, right, that causes cancer. I remember like I was— you know, there's a story of You know, in my family, we have, on my dad's side, we have a history of like, the family legacy on that side is grudges. And unfortunately, and it's something that's being unpackaged. And I remember going to like the grave sites in Pennsylvania where my extended family's buried. And there's some cutoffs in the family. And, you know, I was with my dad and we were going, we were visiting people and there was one grave you wouldn't visit. And I'm like, it's been 40 years.

Yeah.

Gotta let that shit go. And I'm like, that stuff's gonna cause cancer. Like that causes disease. You gotta let that toxicity go. And I know, and God bless them, but like, I do believe it, right? As a therapist, sometimes, you know, truth to power, as they say, right? Like, I'm like, emotions cause disease. We know that from the research. Traumas and triggers causes, right, dis-ease in your body. And that's the whole thing of why I love neuro-emotional technique and the incredible research that's coming out about it and why that we know that With this treatment, we're going to allow your body to help itself heal. Yeah. When we get rid of triggers and traumas that you're unconsciously and subconsciously carrying.

Well, and I think as a highly sensitive person, when you're living in lost and found, like, think about how dank and disgusting lost and found is. Like, if you're like, ew, I got my glove out of there. I'm just going to take it over here and wash it. Like, you could walk by it in school, and you know, it smells bad, and like the whole nine yards, right? Right? Well, so if you figure that lost and found can smell bad and people don't want to touch it, you walk by and you're like, "Ew, just give that away," or something, think about what it does to your body. Like, it's the same thing. It's that disease, you know, dis-ease, and your cells are always spying on you. That's what— well, I say that all the time. Every cell in your body is always spying on you, your thoughts, your words, your actions. Nothing escapes them. They are the best little CIA agents around, right? Me do it all. And they know way before you know. Like, and I think my body was trying to tell me. I knew when I had this melanoma last April, I had it cut off right before my son's wedding in Miami at Mount Sinai. And the guy was like, "Hair up or down?" And I was like, "I just, I would like to keep my ear, okay? I don't care about my hair up or down. I just can keep my ear, right?" And he's like, "Oh, it won't be that bad." It ended up being way more than they anticipated. Oh, ay! Always the case. And so I— but it healed so quickly because I had already decided before I went in, because I found it when I was in Tennessee in the isolation. I was like, okay, this is gonna be melanoma, it's gonna be bad, they're gonna cut it off and then it's gonna be fine, it's gonna go away. That's exactly what happened because that's what I told myself for 6 months before it happened. I was like, you're— it's gonna go away, they're gonna cut it off. And I already knew they would skin graft back here and put it up here. And you know, like, I was I was like, "It'll be fine." It was the second most deadly cancer I've been diagnosed with, and I was like, "Whatever, I'm done. Can you just cut it off and we go, please?" Right, you convinced, right, that—

and that's the powerful thing about our mind and our capabilities and what I love about the law of attraction world, so to speak. I'm not talking about the, like, "Oh, if you think about it and you talk about it, it's going to show up," but it's already— you've committed to the feeling of already being healed, of what your life will be like, as if it already is done. And that's what that sounds like to me. And that's one of the things that I try to impress upon my therapy and coaching clients is like, no, like there's on the tangible tactical side, I can help you also. But like, I want you to also know what is it going to feel like? Because people are like, well, I'll know when I get there. Well, what's the— how are you going to know? Like, what are the indicators? But what you just said just cut through all of that. And you're like, I already know it's done and solved. I just have to let the reality catch up with that. And I really love that.

And you don't have to know all the nitty-gritty details either. Like, I don't need to know exactly what's like, what they shot in my ear. I will say it was extremely painful. But you know, like the, the— and it was funny because my, when my mother-in-law— it's not funny, I'm gonna tell myself— she had, you know, she had pain pills and I don't take pain pills, but— and you can't get them anymore, or I couldn't get them in Florida. And so, you know, like she, I had, she had 2 or 3, um What's the one? Vicodin. Is that a pain pill?

Yeah.

And so, um, I— when we were unpacking her stuff, there was like 3 in a bottle. My husband was like, should we throw that out? And I was like, having 11 surgeries, I'm gonna hold on to that just in case. So I know legal and everything, but I— when I had my ear done, he's like, I can't prescribe it anymore. And I was like, oh, it's okay, I got some. So I did, I used I used 2 days in a row, I used it on my ear more than I used it when they did the full hysterectomy. It was more painful on top of my ear. But like you said, it was like one and done. I'm like, look, you look, I know this is gonna be done. And I know like now I know that I feel very— every cancer I've learned something. Every cancer I've— I'm unlayering all the things about myself that I need to know and understand to, to be the best person I can be. For anybody else. So, so I have— every cancer has taught me those lessons, right? And last night I was thinking, I literally was thinking last night, I think I'm good with lessons. Like, I think I'm— I should be done with the whole cancer route. So I was essentially telling my cells, I'm done. Like, you're done. If you— there's cancer in there, you need to flush yourself out and go because I'm, I'm not playing anymore. I love it.

So I know there's so much more we can unpack and so much more we can get into, but I also want to be mindful of, uh, other things that are going on in the universe. So I want to help people— how can people track you down if they want to, uh, bring you into their world as a resource? Where can they find you?

Well, I, I do— I'm going to say a couple of things. I have, um, a free, um, mini workshop every Monday at 4 PM Pacific Standard Time, or Pacific Daylight Time, on, um, Anxiety as an energy. So we use the idea that anxiety is an energy and the 3 different kinds of anxiety energies. And I go through that. It's 4 weeks. You can jump in anytime. It doesn't matter if you miss. I recap the only ongoing same information every week. I recap for the first 15 minutes anyway. So I recover it and we do that every Monday at 4 o'clock on Zoom. You can go to my Facebook page, Donita Mama Bear, my Instagram, @donatemamabear, Twitter, same. And then I have a website, www.donatemamabear.com. It's D-O-N-I-T-A, mama, M-A-M-A, bear, dot com. It's— a lot of people misspell mama. You know, my maiden name was Bath. People misspelled Bath. I was like, no, it's like bath, like a bathroom, bathtub. It's not that hard. They're like, B-A-T-H-E. Like, no, that's faith, and it's Bath.

And it's It's not Beth either.

Yeah, it's not that hard. So, and Wheeler, just sitting there like, Wheeler, and like, nope, nope, nope, just like Wheeler, you know, like it's not that hard.

And I did the same with Wasser, though, right?

It's Wasser, you know, right?

Yeah, we're in the same boat, we're in the same boat. So yeah, that's, uh, I feel it.

And I tell you this, my lovely parents, so, um, you know, my main name is Beth and my name is Donita, so don't need a bath My friends in the neighborhood came up with that pretty quick. One of my friends, Jason Wasser, who's from El Paso, he's one of my husband's friends, it was his age. He came up with that in about 3rd grade. So that was fun. You know, so my name has always been a very side thorn. And Mike, who you and I both know, and Alicia were like, from Brand Ethos, they were like, "Let's use your name. Like, you have a unique name. You could be like Ellen or Oprah." I'm like, "Oh, okay." And there, I'm 5 letters too. No, I'm saying, So I was like, that sounds fun. But anyway, sorry, I digress. So you can find me on all the social medias. I do the workshop. I just had a book come out. It's on Amazon. It's called Bare Myself, B-A-R-E. It's a very graphic, the first part of it, of all my things I've been through. And then the second part of it is what now, how to regain control in your life, like how I used all those circumstances to regain control, to be able to start a business And I mean, we're talking about a stay-at-home mom who was a teacher and I launched into the business world. So, um, I did, you know, it'll be fun to see where that goes and how that grows. But anyway, you can find me on all of those. And, um, my email is donita@mammabear.com. So if you want to get ahold of me, I'll be glad to talk to you. I have all sorts of fun ways to connect and, you know, I love the digital world and, and I love that we we were forced to jump right into it and get going on it, right? It was a good— I mean, not that this thing has been good, but if there's silver lining, there's definitely silver lining in that. For sure.

Well, awesome. And thank you again for spending the time with us. I know that this is one of the more tough topics to tackle. And I'm really glad that you're able to bring not only your personal story, but the solutions and the positivity to everything that you do and share with everybody out there. So thank you so much.

Thank you for having me.

Thanks for listening to the You Winning Life podcast. If you are ready to minimize your personal and professional struggles and maximize your potential, we would love it if you subscribed so you don't miss an episode. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Jason Wasser LMFT 🎗️.