Ep. 89- Kari DiPhillips "From Freelance to Workationing"

This is the You Winning Life Podcast, your number one source for mastering a positive existence. Each episode, we'll be interviewing exceptional people, giving you empowering insights, and guiding you to extraordinary outcomes. Learn from specialists in the worlds of integrative and natural wellness, spirituality, psychology, and entrepreneurship so you too can be winning life. Now here's your host, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified neuro-emotional technique practitioner, trainer and certified entrepreneur coach, Jason Wasser.

So everybody, welcome back to the You Winning Life podcast. I'm super excited to have CEO of The Content Factory, co-founder of Sisters in SEO Facebook group. She's been called the limit-breaking female founder, and NBC News referred to her as a CEO who takes job perks to the max. She's an expert in SEO and PR and marketing and the digital lifestyle and all of these other cool stuff that we're going to get into. So I want to welcome Carrie de Philips to the show.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

My absolute pleasure to have you, and I've been looking forward to this. So right now, as most people will not know, but unless they're going to see the video version, you're in Amsterdam, you're in the Netherlands right now. So just walk us through as part of your backstory, how you got there from where you started, because I know one of the things we talked about was your, your college career that, you know, pivoted.

What there was of it.

Right. What there was.

Yes.

Yes. And I'm a big fan of like that non-traditional path. You and I were just talking about that before. Right. I had a 1.8 GPA in high school. And I just found out that actually one of my elementary school teachers lives in my sister's building. So I'm like, I want to track her down to get her on my podcast to be like, what was Jason like in elementary school? To like Jason now, you know, this whole, which would be really cool, but right, haha, you know. So, I mean, she was always wonderful and a big, you know, supporter. But it's always curious because I know that a lot of people, you know, from the academic route, it doesn't work for them, the model doesn't work for them, the system doesn't work for them, right, whatever it is, you know. So I would love to hear a little bit about what, you know, up to that point, you know, and around that point, and then, you know, eventually what got you to where you are now.

Sure. So I started out in California, grew up on a farm in Northern California, chickens, cows, the whole thing.

Nice.

And I went to a women's college in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania for 4 years. You know, didn't quite make it across that graduation finish line, but I had gotten a job in advertising through an internship that I'd had before. And so I essentially got like my dream job without even I was still in college at the time, and the understanding was that I was going to go ahead and graduate. Instead, what happened was my boss sexually harassed me. And when I reported it, essentially, there was no movement. He apologized, but then he was still allowed to be my manager. I was really not down with any of that. And so I started looking at other opportunities, other avenues that I could, like, create a career for myself without having to go back to school and, you know, create that year-long delay and launching myself into something sustainable. So I started, uh, on Craigslist and I looked for every freelance writing job you can find. I went through— it didn't matter where I lived because I was going to be like writing. So I applied to like basically every writing job in every city in US Craigslist for months. But within 3 months, I had replaced my day job income with freelance writing work. And I didn't realize it at the time, but the vast majority of the freelance writing work that I was doing for various companies was SEO content. And this was in 2005. So I was one of the first SEO writers that I knew. I didn't, most people didn't even know what SEO was back then. And shortly thereafter, I started The Content Factory in 2010. I kind of took all of my clients, put them into a company, and started hiring people to help me manage the workflow. And so I've been doing that, like I said, since 2010. We just had our 10-year anniversary. And everyone works from home or wherever. I've got like a legit rock star on my staff, but he only tours sometimes and not really so much anymore. Right?

Right.

So he's able to have a day job that, you know, is very steady, and also enables him to, you know, go on international tours with his metal band, which is very cool, you know. And in 2000— in 2017, I started the Workationing podcast and project because I was living in kind of the middle of nowhere, New Hampshire, and I was tired of looking at the same four walls all the time. And I would like get really stressed out and go on eff it trips where I would like do my taxes or knock out a big work project, but it was going to be in Puerto Rico or Playa del Carmen or something like that to make it more palatable to not feel like I'm working.

And a good tax write-off as well.

Yeah.

You know.

Why not? That's what it's for.

Yeah. There's like the best of a lot of worlds there. And I would take some of my employees if we were working on group projects, we would have a group project time in Mexico or Puerto Rico. And one of my employees is also one of my very dear friends. And she was kind of like, well, why can't it always be like this? We were eating fish tacos on the beach. She was like, we don't have to go home. And I was like, you know, we really don't. And we can go all kinds of places. I need to put all of my stuff in a 10 by 10 storage shed and make this happen for myself. So that's what the Workationing podcast was born out of, was essentially me and my best friend traveling around the world, spending a month at a time in different locations, knocking out, um, work projects and also bucket list items in every stop along the way. We really focused on living as intentionally as possible. And what does that mean? And when you do live intentionally, What are the gifts that you can give yourself? And for me, it was the freedom to go around the world and do cool things. I've cage dived with sharks in South Africa, flown a plane, gambled in poker tournaments, hung out with Steve Forbes in Las Vegas in a very nice sequin dress on his 70th birthday. You know, just like fun adventures that we recorded along the way for our podcast audience. And then we also have a Facebook group and The podcast is still going, not as strong as it used to. We're on a reduced production schedule, but yeah, it's still, still a big part of my life and people are still discovering it and writing fan mail. And it's been an adventure. And it's— looking back, it's one of the best things that I've done for myself. Starting my company, getting a divorce, and then starting Workationing.

Congratulations to all three, right?

You know?

Yeah.

Yeah. So it's so interesting, because like finding in this space of, right, for years, and I've shared this story before on previous episodes, is that entrepreneurship and helping others don't necessarily always go hand in hand. And I think people, a lot of people struggle with that. They can do that. Not only do they not feel like they can help others, but they have to do this job, and it has to be locked in. And they're sacrificing, like you're saying, like your well-being, for, you know, an income. And finding your purpose, finding your passion has to be really important. So at what point did you know? And, you know, we're not caveating that we're not giving out any professional advice to anybody who's thinking about dropping out of school and make sure that, you know, I want to be very clear before we, before we take on this next segment. But how did you know? And when did you know that that was your best bet? For you that I'm gonna drop this.

It just made sense, like, off, off the top. It was like, all right, are you gonna go another $25K in debt to knock this project out? My mom had just died. I was really loving the advertising work more than anything. The freelance writing work that I was picking up on the side, I really dug it. It was super nice to be able to sleep in as late as I want and then, you know, get around to writing the articles, get paid on a consistent basis, but it was entirely on my terms, and it allowed me to stretch my creative legs, but then also stretch my professional legs in the sense that over time, I got very good at what I did. I've been in the same industry for a very long time. I haven't shifted, but it's because I found— or I was fortunate enough to find something that really worked for me early on. And then I just stuck with it. So for me, the decision to go back to school, why? What do I need? Because I really was not on the MBA track. I had no intention of going to law school. I already had the job that I wanted. So it seemed like more debt and more effort for something that ultimately, and especially as I got into the professional field, and again, I'm not encouraging anybody to drop out of college if they're, you know, really digging it. Certainly it was some of the best times in my life. But financially it didn't make sense. And also it didn't have value. Like the, where was the value that I was going to point to on the doll and say, and as a result of me finishing this, I did X, Y, and Z. Not all people are in a position to say, like certainly starting your own company helps a lot with overcoming that particular obstacle, but no client's ever asked me what college I went to. And if you're able to do the work, and consistently deliver ROI and results, you're kind of in a safe place. And that's fortunately where I've been. So again, to like short answer, there wasn't value there for me. I got what I like could out of it. And not everyone is going to be in that position, or like that might not be the smartest move for everyone, but at the time it was definitely the smartest move for me.

Well, you just shared a massive tasty nugget in that story. That I want people to just reflect on for a moment is that the degree, the qualifications, right? In certain fields, you do need those things, right? In medical fields and certain things that are legislated by law, right? Such as law and medicine and stuff like that. But a lot of times people are just more concerned with how can you solve the problem for me? And like you said, you were doing it for such a long time consistently that, that became an expert. And it was, um, was it Malcolm Gladwell, right? With the 10,000 hours of your craft intentionally will start making someone proficient. And then beyond that, it's maybe you move into expert status, but it's the first 10,000 hours of doing that. So at that— I'm assuming around that time, that's probably where you realize you've become an expert in this. But I also want to focus on people finding what they're really good at, because I find a lot of times, and you'll see this probably definitely in the digital workspace, but definitely in the entrepreneurship world, that they don't hone in on one or two things that are related to each other versus they're the jack of all trades. And I find that there's entrepreneurship ADD.

Yeah, 100%. And really, like, so what The Content Factory is primarily known for, we do PR, content, and SEO, and social media marketing for name brand clients. And then we do quite a bit of consulting for small businesses as well. But what I was originally known as, and what I started a company called The Content Factory has. We're a content writing agency, right? You want SEO content, we got you covered. But as you dig into those 10,000 hours and you find like, okay, well, there's a lot to SEO here that is not just on-page content writing. So now we're able to charge for like technical SEO fixes and whatnot beyond that off-page. How do you get high-quality backlinks to content so that no other competitor can outrank you for the keywords that you're targeting. PR really does amazing things for that. When you're quoted in Forbes or Entrepreneur or Fast Company, and I'm in there like once a month, all of that link juice to my projects carries over and it helps solidify the rankings that we already have as well as boost us up through those backlinks. So I guess to like put a bow on it, I started out in content and SEO, but to be good at both of those, you also need to be good at PR. That took another 5 years to learn, you know? And social media kind of ties into all of it. There's no like inherent SEO benefit to social media marketing, but when it comes to content promotion and content marketing, it's a good skill to know. If you start out and you're the like jack of all trades, master of none, you can get far enough to get like mid-level probably, but you're never going to be an expert in any one of those areas until you pick a lane and stick to it. And then once you've mastered that, then you can see how the other aspects integrate and how you can build those skill sets up to complement the expertise that you already have. Yeah.

So as you were wandering through this and you started seeing your own personal skills develop, have you seen other people— like, what, like, so like you're working with a company, you're consulting with them, and you're able to see things through the lens in which you're able to see it. And I kind of look at it from a personal psychology perspective that a lot of times in business, it reflects what's going on in their own personal world, right? Wherever you go, there you are, as Jon Kabat-Zinn says, right? So how have you taken that, right, one, from your own personal journey of like, okay, these are the areas that I struggle with, and this is what I need to focus on? How has that played out both in your personal professional world? And how have you seen that show up also in your clients, where there may be things that they're not focusing on that they're just oblivious about, but then you're kind of seeing like, well, they're not focusing on that in their personal life either, or there's some type of— do you Do you see any correlations and connections in the way that you've been working with that?

I think it comes down to what do they value? And if they don't value the same things that you value, then either you're not making your proposition clear to them, you're not doing a good— I or my team are not doing a good enough job in communicating the value to what we're proposing based off of our experiences in a way that they're buying in on. Well, then why not? Right. And maybe they just like hate social media. Maybe they just don't. All right, well then your results are going to suffer. And that's— it's really difficult to work with clients like that. And so, and often, like, it's very rare that we do have a client that's pushing back on our recommendations, because when we come with these recommendations, we're also coming with case studies, we're coming with third-party articles, like underlying what we're saying. And, you know, a really strong this is in your best interest to do this. But like all kinds of things are in our best interest. I should be going to the gym 3 days a week. I've got a personal trainer for 3 days a week, but I only show up twice. You know?

That's not going to work in the long run.

Exactly. No, it's like the Meatloaf rule. 2 out of 3 ain't bad. And it's still better. Like it's, I'm constantly at odds with the like 2 out of 3 ain't bad. And you can half-ass your way to success if you consistently half-ass. Things that are going to propel you further, whatever that may be. Right? So if it's like you're a pack a day smoker and today you're only going to have 19, and then in 2 days, you're only going to have 18. That's still progress. I mean, is it like, are you not a smoker? You're still smoking, but you're doing better than you were. And we're on the right path here. You know, it's, it's, you're going to get there eventually. I've got faith, but—

Right. But if their goal is only, but I'm only going to get to non-smoking at 5 a day, that's still not getting to the real goal of where they need to go.

Exactly. Exactly. So I mean, people struggle with this in all kinds of different areas. Whether it's going to the gym, whether it's like cooking at home instead of ordering Uber Eats for the 5th time this week, or— I'm just really calling myself out on all the things that I'm working on here.

We'll sign a confidentiality clause after this one.

But I think that it's important to note that some progress is like still progress and you shouldn't knock yourself for making that progress and you should celebrate yourself for making that progress because like a lot of people just don't even take that first step and then it's until you get going, until you build that momentum, uh, each of the first steps are like kind of scary and excruciating.

So, so my next question to you is kind of more of an agree or disagree and your philosophy and approach to this. So I've learned over the last couple years that there's a difference between being an entrepreneur and entrepreneurial. And there's a difference between someone who creates a business and someone who creates a company. And there's a difference between someone who creates a business that's really a job for themselves, right, replace the job they've had, versus creating something where it would continue to evolve and grow even if they weren't involved on a day-to-day basis.

Mm-hmm. I'm sorry, what's the question?

So agreeing or disagreeing, right, with your experiences, right? Because you started off doing all the SEO and the writing yourself. And then you evolved into, I'm gonna bring someone in, I'm gonna hire someone, and, and right, and now I can be able to be where I want to be when I want to be. And I can collaborate with teams versus you being the responsibility. And I find that like in the entrepreneurship world, that people who create something, right, again, it's the difference between being entrepreneurial and being an entrepreneur. And I'm, I'm being playing with semantics here. But you've created a company, right? There's other people that are part of your team, all those different things versus at the beginning, it replaced a job. And the evolution, I think the evolution for people to really sink their teeth into this concept is that if you're creating something that just replaces a job, but you have more stress and you have more responsibilities than you do at the other job, you might not be going out right, versus what you're doing, which I see as being entrepreneurial and being an entrepreneur, is creating something bigger.

Like, full disclosure, it was a— I told you, I started freelance writing in 2005. Why did it take me 5 years to start my company? I was scared to for no reason. You know what I mean? It was like, well, that's, I've never done that before. And—

Did you have the resources? Did you have the team around you? Did you have mentors? Did you have like—

No, I had none of that. I was just like—

So it was all in your head?

Myself. And yeah. And how do we, how do I get myself out of that like hamster wheel? And the E-Myth Revisited really Michael rocked my world. I was reading that at the gym on the elliptical, and I was like, I've got to make some changes. This guy's probably right.

So then that philosophy, so then you would definitely agree with, because a lot of that I'm pulling from that paradigm where you have the entrepreneur, the manager, and the technician. So right, when you're doing the SEO, or you're doing the ad copy, or I'm doing therapy, I'm being the technician, we're going to get paid more up or down in scale. But we're still being a technician and we can't do the marketing and the development and the partnerships during that time.

Right. And I mean, it takes a while. There are all kinds of reasons why that might take a while. You might not have the right team in place. That was the case for me for a while. Like, and that stunted my business growth and also The Content Factory's profitability. Once I solved that problem, then it was like, all right, now there's another problem, you know? And it's like different things to work on and fix. And certainly I am no E-Myth Revisited poster girl. Right? But I'm like 85% of the way there. And again, that's way better than I was when I first started reading the book and I was maybe a third of the way there. So, you know, it takes a while and you've got to feel through it. Mentorship or not, you have to know what feels good to you, what feels right to you. And there were all kinds of things that were getting in the way of me doing what felt right to me. So for example, there were people on my team who had been with me for years and they just like, their skills weren't progressing. Uh, there was just like stagnation and I, there's nothing worse than firing people, but sometimes it really has to be done. And I have really shot myself in the foot by keeping people on longer than I knew they should have been. And then eventually, there's always some mistake that happens or some sort of like, well, this is the impetus to really pull that plug. But Carrie, you should have known better and you should have done it sooner. And so I'm constantly in this process of trying to learn lessons the hard way only once. And I'm moderately successful at it.

Well, it's funny because I see it the same thing that people do in relationships is what they do in their company. Like, and in my approach, I call those the toleration tendencies, what you're willing to hold on to for way too long. And I see it, and I see it, and I saw it earlier on in my career, even pre-therapist when I was in charge of a programming staff. And there was a person I should have fired, but I'm like, we've been friends for years. Like, I know he needs extra side money, he's getting married soon. And like, I know the kids kind of like him, but like, so in it right there, like whatever it is. And You know, and there just became more issues. And eventually, like, I'm like, listen, it's really not— it's time to move on. But, but it was so, you know, I can see where people become passive-aggressive in a leadership role. Or, and you can see how it plays out in all different worlds, because we don't want to crush someone, you don't want to ruin their financial stability, we don't want— but at the end of the day, if it's our company, it's what represents your brand.

Right?

And also the simplest way.

It's what message are you sending to the rest of your team? Like if the person's slacking, then you can be sure that other people on the team are picking up that slack. And they're probably not coming to you about it because nobody wants to be the rat, you know. Seeing those types of things and how coworkers can cover for each other in a way that hides problems for me so that I can address them sooner. That's been a learning process. My own management style. I hate to meeting people to get to death, but there's no reason why I shouldn't be having at least once a month team meetings where everyone gets on the Zoom call and we get to see each other's faces and like, how's your house doing during COVID You know, we have a lot of people with like fancy backgrounds just because nobody has the energy or headspace to clean.

Like, if they can see all my musical instruments behind me, that's great. Because then they know that I'm more for comfort.

Yeah, those guitars and that Gumby.

There's definitely the Gumby back there.

Yeah, yeah.

And a bunch of me, right? Because I want to bring a little bit sense of normalization that it's like not just therapy, right? There is, there is a Jason behind the scenes. And, you know, yeah, but thank God outside of the view of the camera is, you know, a stack of stuff that needs to be organized. But it's still, but I'm okay showing all my musical, my musical stuff. But yeah, I think it's so true that like this idea of, you know, moving quickly in this growth stage, which can take a lot longer, A, knowing what the goals are, what the values are, is everybody in alignment? One of the things that people forget to talk about, and tell me how this plays out in your business, is objectives, you know, and goals by objectives. And that can make like if someone's not meeting their criteria, often enough, that is like, hey, listen, like, we're, we're at will, like, this is the objectives. And if you don't meet it, like, you know, you know, you're probably gonna either want to tell us that you quit, or, you know, we're gonna have these conversations after a certain amount of points. And what, you know, did you have objectives for your team right away? Because I know you just said you do once a month or so meetings, but how does, how does that workflow work from your business development side where you know that there's an accountability? Because I know a lot of people have difficulty with this.

Right. Um, it's a, it's a fine line to walk. Um, in terms of accountability and like the deliverables or goals, they vary per client and pretty wildly. Um, but they're always very well established. Every person on my team sends me a weekly recap detailing the work that they've done. If they're in the writing department, uh, it's expected that you're, unless you've got like a heavy reporting week or you're like meeting to death or something, it's expected that you're going to turn out at least 7,000 words a week. Those are all counted. But again, like it's, there's a lot of detail and nuance there because somebody can turn in 8,500 words, but if they're crap and it takes my editor forever to go through, then that's like, that's not a valid KPI.

Right.

Right. It's like quality, building quality into KPIs, especially when, for example, SEO content, when you post it to a client site, it takes like 6 months for it to actually like settle in the rankings roughly where it's going to be. And then you can start tweaking to optimize further. But like when you think of that, there's a 6-month lag in the, is this work providing value to the client? So in the meantime, we know what works and we're like checking for it internally. So there's that aspect, which is complicated in digital marketing, but I'm sure it's not unique to digital, to digital marketing.

Well, can we stay there for a second? 'Cause I think this is where the long-term buy-in in these type of fields is more difficult for the consumer than the people who are doing the production side, like your side, is that they're not willing to be patient to see the outcome. And meanwhile, they are investing in a specific product, right? SEO and all those things are not cheap, but when done well, are done excessively well, and the value on your return should show up. But like, but I really want you to re-impress upon that. Why is— why does it take that long from your theory?

It just does. And we tell clients, so the minimum, the absolute minimum contract that we'll sign with some— with a company is 6 months. And I'm going to raise your rates on that. It's not going to be rate card. A year is— in a year we can really show some, some movement. I also do not take on clients that I don't think that we can get results for. That's a huge, I mean, self-selecting your clients is huge because you can take any dollar that comes through the door, but the hell that's going to be just like brought down on your team from like them grinding it out and doing the best they can. But like for whatever reason, this product doesn't work or people don't like the brand or there's any number of reasons.

Or it doesn't align with your values as a company.

Exactly. And certainly we've turned away a bunch of clients., that, you know, political causes, religious causes, we just don't even touch it. Um, I've got vegans on staff. Uh, if there's like a company that does any kind of animal testing, they won't touch it. They won't have it. And I respect that. Uh, we actually don't have any clients that do animal testing or have any animal products in them, but like being respectful of that, Sure.

And there's other companies that will touch that, but it's again, the core value. It's, you know, I'm a big fan of the doorman principle, because once you let them in, like you said before, chaos can ensue. So I see everything is like, okay, when I'm asking questions on an intake for a coaching client, a therapy client, a business, I ask a lot of questions before I decide whether— it's not whether they want to work with me, it's whether I want to work with them. Like, it sounds like you have that same approach. Must be mutually exclusive at the end of the day, right?

But I realize that we're signing a long contract or a relatively long contract, and if the client's not happy, they're going to be on calls multiple times a week just expressing dissatisfaction, and there's nothing— there's nothing worse for team morale. Yeah, I really try to avoid those situations at all costs, and knock on wood, we haven't had one in years. So why does it take so long? If you're a well-established site, it can take anywhere from like 2 to 3 months. But if you're not a well-established site and you don't have the backlink profile, then maybe it takes 9 months. It really depends on how competitive your industry is. We won't even take on a mattress client. Like mattress and porn, mattresses and porn are the two crazy—

I mean, they do go hand in hand, I guess.

Right.

Right.

Sometimes.

Yeah. They're the two craziest industries for SEO. Highly competitive. I just— who's doing that? Not me. That can be somebody else's team banging their head against the wall for that one.

No pun intended there. Yeah.

But if you're, yeah, if you're, if you're If your website is already pretty well established, you're in a really good position to see faster results. But in terms of expectation settings with our clients, uh, we hit them with a 6-month, 3 to 6 months, depends. Sometimes it happens in like 60 days, right? 45 days, that's the fastest I've seen it.

Yes. How— so I know like people kind of have fallen off the favor of blogging, you know? Yeah, it's now, right, everything is now the digital. It's Instagram, it's Stories, TikTok, whatever. As long as TikTok's gonna be around, whether it will be or— I'm assuming in the next couple hours, we'll know if TikTok will be around based on the elections. But right, but people have moved into instead of writing and content from that perspective, which is right, you're for, they moved into that digital side. So can you impress upon everybody like, because I know that like I have a, I have a virtual assistant, and we're making sure that like all my podcasts are turning into blog articles and, and all that stuff, right? How important is it still for people to be not forgetting that element? Of this space.

Hugely important. Hugely important. Hugely important. And I have all kinds of guides. So the Content Factory, another reason why we've been able to get so much media coverage is because we were one of the first agencies with fully transparent pricing. Anybody can download our generic proposal. I'm not trying to like go round and round on phone calls with you guys to see if you're, do you want it or not? You know, if so, then we can talk. If not, then like I can refer you to somebody else maybe. But I have written 3 blog posts on The Content Factory's website that have generated over $1 million each in revenue for the agency. The one, Cost of Social Media Marketing, has generated over $3 million worth of business for The Content Factory. And this is just for my agency, 3 blog posts. And you're, if you're strategic about your keyword research, If you're creating long form, people don't want to hear this, but this is an absolute SEO fact. Unless your content is like 2,000 words long, you're not going to be able to thoroughly cover the subject in a way that's going to increase your rankings for that page over what currently ranks number 1. There are very few exceptions to this. And as you get into more competitive industries, um, you see that like Maybe it's 3,000. You know, if you look at the Content Factory's blog, every single one of our posts is over 2,000 words. And we rank for everything from cost of social media marketing to how to monetize a Facebook group. Some of those are higher converting than others. Cost of social media marketing is a great search term for me to rank for because if somebody is in the process of looking at the cost of something, it's because they're in the research phase before making a purchase. And when you can like A, introduce your brand, B, answer their questions and thoroughly answer their questions, and then C, demonstrate your expertise. We've even case studies throughout there. We'll look at, sure, it costs a lot, but look at how much you can get out of it. And we've got nice graphs for that, that really illustrate things and downloadable assets to where you can get on our email marketing list. And then you're going to hear from me until you tell me to stop. You know? And it's automated. I don't even sweat it anymore. I'm just like, oh yeah, that email went out. So blogging is really important. If you care about SEO, you have to care about a blog. You have to start creating strategic content that's long-form, keyword-targeted, and also formatted the right way because you want to send all of those good signals to the search crawlers in a way that makes them rank your site higher and faster.

Right.

And there's— I'll be saying until I'm like an old, old lady, blogging, it still won't be dead by then. SEO won't be dead by then either.

Right. And again, it depends on how, you know, you have to have the tools and you have to know what you're doing because you could be writing 2,000-word piece of rubbish and it's not going to go anywhere. And it could actually affect you negatively, correct? Uh, not just won't go anywhere.

I mean, it'll turn people off.

Right.

People who were in a position to otherwise purchase your services or products are gonna say, 'Nay, let me hit that back button and see what else Google has to offer me.' Yeah. Yeah.

So I know one of the things that you've done is, right, everybody's working remotely from wherever they are, and you're now living in Amsterdam. So let's talk a little bit about that, about creating a company where you can do that, where you can have this work-life lifestyle, where you can be where you want to be, the digital nomad. If some people, you know, some people have that if they're working from in the digital space. But, you know, yes, you are working in a digital space, but you're not in the, you know, it's not a traditional thing that would typically have been a digital nomad versus like UI/UX, web design, stuff like that. But you're still able to.

I see a lot of people, social media marketers and SEO day traders are big in the digital nomad space because we, we tried to hit a lot of the digital nomad hotspots in the podcast. So for example, Medellín, Colombia, tons of expats out there or tons of digital nomads out there, but it's because the cost of living is like crazy cheap. The food is incredible. Everyone's gorgeous. Why wouldn't you? You know? And then save all that money through geographic arbitrage.

Unless you feel you're not as gorgeous as everybody else and then you wouldn't want to.

It gave me a complex. I'm not going to— And then I come here.

I'm not going to say that for me.

All gorgeous blonde people. I'm like, who? Where do you come from? Because they don't grow them out like out here. Where I come from.

I'm used to chickens.

Right? I'm like, okay, well, good for you, I guess. You know?

Right.

Love those genes. Um, really any, anything that can be done remotely, you can make, you can turn into a digital nomad career of sorts. Um, certainly web design. Um, like I said, day traders, There were a lot of day traders that were doing the digital nomad thing out in Medellín. Writers. You know, there's a whole industry of VAs and some VAs make a lot of money. Like it's not uncommon for me to pick up a VA for $50 an hour, but their expertise is really crazy. And the guy I'm talking about in particular has really whipped our systems into shape. You know, other people are charging like $5 or $10 an hour depending on where they are. But like the world of VA-ry, you can really choose your own adventure. Are you into social media marketing? Are you into content writing? Are you into graphic design? Like there's all kinds of ways that you can kind of piece together a living through if you want to start out with that jack of all trades kind of skillset. And that work is pretty easy to find. I see people looking for VAs in every Facebook group I'm in. Everyone needs help. And like specialized help. And they're not sure where to find it. I've been fortunate enough to hook up with a lady named Hannah Dixon who might be a really good interview for your podcast. But she's the VA queen. She trains virtual assistants and her whole business is training other people how to be VAs and then charge what they're worth. Yeah. So she kind of made a business out of teaching people how to do what she did successfully. And that's essentially what I'm doing through the Content Factory's online courses as well. So we have like a comprehensive, it's called Rise and Convert SEO course where it teaches you everything that we know. It's based off of the exact training that I give my staff when they first come in. And we train them from the ground up because sometimes they think they know about SEO and we got to correct some of those learned behaviors that aren't so good. But yeah, there's all kinds of ways that you can, you can make a living remotely and then parlay that into traveling the world. And if you take a pay cut, but then you use geographic arbitrage to go to like Medellín, or, you know, there's Chiang Mai is a digital nomad hotspot, also very cheap, beachy, you know, if you can—

Right, so there's a trade-off, right, that you might not be making as much, but you're gonna— your cost of living is gonna go down exponentially.

Right, right. And so if you strategically play that game, you can get away with a pay cut while also increasing the quality of your life, depending on where you go and how much you like it. But if you don't like it, there's nothing to stop you from picking up and going to a different town.

So how does someone start dipping their, their feet in the waters of all of this, this lifestyle, right? Whether it's digital nomad or, or picking up a little side hustle, like where, what resources are your favorite? And obviously, including the ones that you offer in create? Where can they start dabbling and like figuring out like, is this something that I want to do? Like, is it even possible? I've never even heard of this stuff before. Like, in my field, how can I translate, translate what I'm already doing into something that'll be useful to someone else when I've just been an employee? So where would that— like, what's like, what are some of the first steps?

Well, figure out what you want to do. And let's say you're really good at Instagram, and you want to get into Instagram marketing. Well, then go to Craigslist and go through every single city, all of the job listings, they've got it broken out into marketing and writing and graphic design. If you're into graphic design, you don't need to have a whole lot of experience to build somebody a website for $2,500. It's a great deal for them if you don't screw it up. And it's a great deal for you because how long does it actually take you to take a WordPress template, modify it, and then give somebody a functional website on the other end? So like, so much of it comes down to interest in existing skill sets. If you're curious as to the availability of these types of freelance gigs or jobs, I would recommend searching for them. See what they pay. How easy, like, 'cause there has to be a volume. When I replaced my, a volume of pitches or a volume of applications, when I replaced my income, from advertising within 3 months, I was sending out a minimum of 50 applications a week. And it's copy, paste, modify. It didn't even take me that long. Sometimes I got 250 a week. Like Craigslist will max you out at 50 pitches a day. And some days I just hit that max. And so when you're consistently getting that volume out, you will get jobs in even if you don't have any experience. And then you take those jobs because now you've got a portfolio. Right? Just like scratch together, offer to do social media marketing for your friend's business for free for a month just so that you can say that you've done it. If you are into a particular charity, they're always looking for people to help with like Instagram marketing or all kinds of stuff. Right? Maybe they need a new website. But you can hit them up and then you get to attach your name to a like feel-good name brand charity And that helps build your portfolio. So those are a couple of the hacks.

So see it as an internship per se.

Kind of. Yeah. But you're not gonna say that on your job application. You're just gonna say, you know, I managed social media at like this charity here or whatever. And in the meantime, if you're aggressive about your application strategy, you should be able to just piece some, piece some work together to the point where you can leverage that to get more and higher paying work. It's really about having the drive to get on your hustle and stay on it. Not everyone has that. And that's okay. Yeah. You know, yeah.

And it's totally fine, right? And just, I think people, there's a lot of people out there that I talked to, especially in my, in my practice, where they are struggling in a job, and they don't love it. They're not evolving to the positions that they want. One, they're afraid to ask and say, what do I need to do? A, is it possible in your eyes? A, do you ever see me becoming that position? B, if so, what do I need to do? What skill set? What training does a business offer? Does a company offer it? Or do I have to go elsewhere? Will you fund that for me? If not, you know, and then if so, how long will it take to get there? If I start doing this? And if they say no, you're never going to get there, then you need to start looking for another job.

Well, and I would be really excited to have that conversation with basically anyone on my staff as an employer, because you know what that says to me? You're engaged in the process. You're trying to be here for a long time and you're trying to move up. So how can I help you do that?

Exactly. And a lot of people are afraid to have that conversation with their boss because maybe they think like everything is landlocked and they can't move up anymore. And that's just their position because that's what they were hired for.

Well, and then maybe the answer is no, but like, then you know that it's time to GTFO. I didn't love it when my boss sexually harassed me, but then there came that problem where I couldn't— there was no way for me to stay there. At that point. So if you ask your boss and that answer is a hard no, then at least you know, and you can make the next best moves in your own best interest to help you get where you're going. And you can still use this as a springboard to get to the next job.

Right? Because I find a lot of people will never have that conversation. And then we'll be so upset at their company that they're not being promoted, that they're not going anywhere, their income isn't going up, and they're blaming and resenting everybody, then they become miserable in their personal life. And they trickle that down to right there, their own relationships. And all it took was some simple questions. And I'm really trying to reframe that with a lot of people to say, you should ask, where do you want to be? What timeframe do you think you want to be there in? Because it may be an over or an under, you might be more over than under it, as far as timeframe. And the company may say no, like, it's never, it's never gonna happen for you. You don't have the background, you don't have the skills, you don't have the right— okay, Right? Can I? Can I train? Will you train? Right? So I think that people are afraid because I think they're afraid of being rejected on multiple levels once they've already been accepted as part of the community or the job, right? That they don't want to be rejected again. So they keep quiet and they—

Well, it's scary and it's intimidating. Yeah, I can see like I sometimes— I had a lady turn in her 2 weeks notice after she had 3 kids. And COVID and she had to homeschool those kids. And she, bless her, was just not able. She didn't want to, whatever. She didn't want to or couldn't work and run her family. And so she made the choice. And I applaud her for this. Work comes not at all close. Right? But she agonized. She knew she was going to make this decision. She told me later, she knew about it for like 2 weeks before she put in her 2 weeks' notice. And I was like, you I wish that we would have had this conversation sooner because A, I would have like been as compassionate and empathetic as possible. I understand that you're struggling. I don't want to be a part of that struggle. I've got an open door policy. You can always come back, you know. But it really broke my heart to think of the fact that like she had gone on a camping trip for her husband's birthday and she said she was having panic attacks. Over telling me, and I'm like, oh, am I that intimidating? Maybe I am. I don't know. But it should never be that type of— there shouldn't be that much intimidation. And if you're feeling that intimidated by your boss, then there's probably something wrong anyway. Yeah, that's part of that toxic work culture about your career and your position at the company that you're currently working for and trying to demonstrate that you're invested in to the point where you want to grow within the company. I think maybe it's a self-confidence problem.

I, you know, there's all kinds of issues that could be the culture of the company too, where a lot of employers are made to work that you're just right. And you see that, and I see this all the time. And a lot of my, my entrepreneur coaching clients, where they're working, they're bringing in so much extra value. And I said, number one, the value that you think you're bringing, is that what's contractually what they think that you should be bringing in anyway? So should you be bonused on that? Right?

Yeah.

Well, you saved them $2 million, an extra $2 million this year. Well, what was the expectations of them hiring you and paying your salary that you should be saving them? Right? And right. And have you had those crystal clear numbers of if I save you $3 million, do I get a percentage of that? If I save you $4 million, do I get a break? And, and they're like, well, but no, but they should know that I'm doing, I'm doing better than everybody else. I'm like, well, maybe everybody else is slacking and you're actually just doing your job, just doing your job. Right? Just because you're the top performer doesn't mean everybody else is, right? Everybody else can be underperforming. So I think these are important, right? The numbers are important to discuss. I think the criteria is important to discuss. And I think it's important to discuss often with between the staff and the, and the team.

I totally, I totally agree. And I also think that one perspective, like a nugget that I could offer from the employer side, is it like maybe they just don't know. Right. Like, are they sure? Or like, are you sure that they're sure that you're the sole reason why that $2 million you're saved or got saved? Because maybe they thought it was a team effort and maybe they thought that Brad contributed to $750K of that savings. Right. And so like, how are you clearly communicating your wins and successes and challenges to your boss? That's for my weekly recaps. Everyone has to tell me what they've done. What they're doing next week, what the goals for next week are, their wins and their challenges, and also hard data. So like how many placements did you get? How many pitches do you send out if you're in the PR department? How many words did you write? What's the SEO like trending? We have weekly reports on that. Every Friday, they hit it in my inbox. But before I started asking them what their challenges were and what their wins were, I was catching maybe half of that. Maybe. And like some of the wins and some of the challenges were truly shocking to me. Oh, I didn't even know that you were struggling with that. Here, I've got a solution over here. But like until I started asking, I wasn't getting that feedback. So it's possible that like the employer or the manager is, I'm not going to say failing, right? But in a way failing to understand either your struggles or your successes in a way that they'll either fix or monetize further for you.

Yeah, well, I, I'm reflecting on what you're saying, and it's reminding me of that healthy families, when done right, and healthy relationships, and how I interpret is when, when you take that aspect of what you're talking about, of like checking in with each other like you do with, with, you know, with what you're talking about, management by objectives and goals, and what, what was going on in your week? What What's been the most challenging for you? What have you learned? What have you done? What have you done for somebody else? Right? How have you helped someone else on your team, so to speak, in friendship or whatever? And the flip in companies, companies sometimes become so sterile that they forgot the interpersonal relationship dynamic that, you know, people are craving and wanting. And also bringing that family environment into like the family dinner, having the barbecue, having the thing. But also, it's not just like we're going to give you this event. But it's actually the relationship-based, like the questions you're asking are the best example, right? What are the wins? What are the challenges? Right? And I always love like, who, who on our team can help you?

Right? Or who have you helped? I, after this conversation, I'm going to add a little, all right, who was your all-star this week? Or who really saved your ass this week? Because people step in on my team and help out all the time, whether somebody's going on vacation, and somebody's filling in for them on their client load, or like pulling lists for— there's all kinds of things, random tasks that any member of my team could do. And it's kind of like sometimes a who has time to help me on this? And I want to know who's helping so I can give them the gold stars.

Exactly. And who might be able to, like, because I— it's funny, I was talking to one of my previous guests who I've become friendly with since, since I had him about a year ago. And I was sharing something that was going on. He's like, you know, we can schedule a digital coffee for that. I'm like, God, you would be the perfect person for me to like, you know, and it's like, I don't like— we forget that we have this right in front of our face. And we've developed a friendship and a deep respect for each other. And I'm like, I just never would have thought that he would— I'm like, oh, yeah. Damn. Okay. You know, and it took me to have this like quick little Facebook interaction with him because, you know, his episode was released recently after being recorded a while ago. But we, you know, so I want to challenge people like, who, who I have this big theory of like creating your dream team, right? Like, like back in the Olympics. And what do you need in your life to get to those areas that you need? And it might already be there, but we just have to ask. Like, so-and-so on your team is really good at that. Hey, I know this is crazy. I know you're slammed, but can we spend a couple of hours over the next month so I can learn a little bit more about what you're doing and how do I can do it better so I don't have to bother you 15 times a week on this? Yeah, right. The proactive question like that. And I think that does— and it does such good for the morale. Of the community as well.

Because ultimately, don't— fundamentally, as humans, I feel like we all really just want to be heard and understood. And until you open up those questions, and especially in a work environment, like, you're spending a third of your life with these people. Like, don't you want to have just the tightest, coolest, most competent team that you can possibly roll with?

Yeah.

And so much of that is asking them, like, what do you need from me? How am I failing? Like check in on that call. I don't think that I really explained this, this, this, or this as well as I could have. Do you agree? And if so, how would you like shift that messaging in the future? And there, there, that requires vulnerability. It requires an understanding that there's not going to be retaliation for somebody being like, yeah, you really ate it on that one. You know, like there's this space involved with providing feedback and receiving feedback and asking for feedback.

Yeah, creates a greater buy-in. Definitely creates a greater buy-in. I love asking like new clients especially. So I know we've all like, let's say it was like the first call. And so the second, you know, after our second session, or at the beginning of the second session, like, so I know we talked about a bunch of different things last week. What was the most useful for you? And what was absolutely completely a waste of your time for us to discuss?

Okay, that's a good one.

Right? And because there may have been some random tangent, like, well, we're not getting to my issue yet, or we're not getting like, okay, but like, then I can, you know, without them, because what I find is like for client retention, especially, right, and you'll have this in your world is We don't ask enough, right? And when sometimes clients will just disappear, and there's no rhyme or reason, and you're like, but we thought everything was great on our end. So, you know, the check-in on that, you know, more than just a quarterly, but like, yeah, like, what are we going— what's going on? And sometimes people don't want to insult you, but like, you have to push to ask.

Yeah. And that asking again is really scary. Because what if, what if you don't like what they have to say? What if they point out an issue you didn't even know was an issue? And now you're on the call with them going, going like, oh, well, I did. Well, it gives you the opportunity to fix that issue so that client doesn't have to deal with it anymore. Neither do any clients in the future. But like, it's, it's kind of that same, you don't want to ask your boss for a raise thing, or for a promotion, or open up that conversation. Because what if you open up a can of worms, and you don't want to get your hands dirty?

But also, I think that client who brings that up, if you handle it right, you, the general person, you know, you, you, anybody. So you, right, that they're gonna see that, like you said, the vulnerability, but they're gonna say like, like, how much more so they're taking their concerns and their care of their product that you're trying to solve for them or that problem you're trying to solve with them that much more seriously. And that does deepen the relationship and it deepens the trust on a significant level. And that's really what it is at the end of the day, right? We're creating products that we— people need to trust us to run because they're spending money, they're spending time, they're spending intimate information about whether it's their, right, their life, their business, their product, whatever.

And both of us, I feel like it's a trust bond. Is this going to work in 6 months?

Right?

Am I going to be better in 6 months? I'm pretty sure.

I'm pretty sure. Right, right. And what do you need to see in 6 months in order to know that your investment has been spent wisely? And then let's talk to you about, like you said, we're going to show you the research of where you accurate. A lot of people overestimate, right? Especially I can imagine in the digital space of like, no, I want, I want to have a million new followers on Instagram. Okay. But like, you know, you gotta, that's a very rare, you know, thing for that to happen.

I mean, we can buy them for you from like, you know, India, but like, yeah, no, I've got this saying that I say a lot when clients are asking me for something that they should, there's just no way. And it's, yeah, and when I catch my pink unicorn with the rainbow mane, I'm going to name her Veronica. You know, and then you say it once, it's like, oh, I'm gonna catch Veronica soon. And they're like, oh, it's that unrealistic? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But that also brings them into your culture a little bit of like, okay, okay, yeah, fine. Right. That's the shtick. Okay, I'm just completely making this stuff up. And she knows what she's talking about. I'm going to trust her. And she called it out, right? As opposed to like, we're going to promise you everything and then not deliver. And that's, that's, that's it. I think that's like, right, in any relationship, in any healthy relationship, it's Honestly, it's being honest and being showing up with integrity. And I think I love that, like, because, you know, what I know as a consumer, right, as a business professional is like, there's so many competing people out there in your space.

Yeah, right.

And the entire— it's kind of like, you know, insurance salesmen and ads, right?

All—

they're all— it's kind of the same, like, salesy thing. And like, but there's no relationship. But I'm— but I'm so glad to hear the amount of value connection and relationship and depth that your company is bringing.

Well, and that's something that I've really taken upon myself as well. I've always been kind of a community-oriented person on principle.

Yeah.

I do not believe, like, I believe that there's plenty of pie for everyone. And if you sit at my dinner table in my industry and you have a piece of pie, you're not taking any pie from me. There's plenty of food for all of us. And there's I don't have that— I'm a highly competitive person. So I don't want to say that like I don't have that competitive nature because I do. But I feel like, and I know for a fact that I have gotten so much more out of my career by being collaborative, being open, and being transparent, and also sharing my knowledge along the way. And no matter what industry you're in, if you're creating blog content that's going to rank for targeted keywords, that are actually going to potentially turn into dollars, you basically have a captive audience and you can write whatever you want in a way that instills trust, shows that you're transparent. People really value that transparency thing. I can't say it enough. And then I started Sisters, or I co-founded Sisters in SEO. SEO is a 70% male-dominated industry. It's been that way since forever. It was probably higher than that even, but a new study just came out from Moz and 70%, and also the women get paid a lot less. Wow. So 2 years ago, I co-founded Sisters in SEO and it's since become the largest network of women in the industry. We have over 8,500 members of just women in SEO and they are so supportive and helpful and just the knowledge sharing that exists does not exist in co-ed groups. And it's because it's like that competitive, again, I don't like the competitive. There's a different word that I'm looking for here. But the like idea that if you have pie, you're necessarily stealing my pie. You see that so much.

Well, it's a lack of abundance. The lack of abundance.

Yeah. That's exactly what it is. It's a lack of abundance with a side of like jealousy and snark. Because you're either lower than them at their knowledge base or they— we just don't allow any of that in the group. And it's become a really safe space for femmes. We take a broad interpretation of the word sister, right? Femmes to come in and ask questions about SEO, grow their knowledge, like check articles. People are like, oh, I wrote this blog post. What would you do different? And there's feedback. You know, it's a really killer community. And it's like up there with the top 3 things. And maybe that's number 4 that I've done in my career in life. Finding those spaces. And Facebook groups are a great place. If you're trying to break into an industry, the female-centered ones tend to be less snarky if you happen to be a femme. I would recommend that you start with like, there's a Women of Email group, which is incredible. And it's got the top email marketers in the world. They're all women. And they've got like their version of Sisters in SEO. Actually, it was before Sisters in SEO. So I guess we're a version of them. But there's like Technical SEO. There's Women in Email Market— or I already said Women in Email Marketing. But we've got a Sisters in Social Media Marketing group now. Women Entrepreneurs. There's a Facebook group called Like-Minded Bitches Drinking Wine. And it's awesome. And it's all lady entrepreneurs. It's a lady entrepreneurship group. So like, I'm obviously more familiar with the femme-centric groups, but if you start digging into Facebook, uh, Facebook groups, no matter what your genitalia, you can find resources and pools of people who are experienced and totally willing to help walk you through the process and answer any questions that you have. And if you just lurk in these groups, you'll pick up so much knowledge that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to find. So even through COVID, you can definitely integrate yourself into these network opportunities, networking opportunities vis-à-vis Facebook groups or, you know, remote summits or whatnot and get where you need to go. The number one issue that I see is that people just don't even get started.

Yeah.

Yeah, just they've got the— they want to be a photographer, they got that fancy camera and all of those photography books, they got Photoshop and they're ready to go, but they're just—

they're—

don't crack it, they just don't put it out there, right? No, no, they don't even— they don't even learn how to use the fancy lens they just bought, you know? It's like buying it— buying that course does not equate taking the course and like learning, learning the material.

My favorite is buy this course so I can teach you how to sell other courses to other people.

That's my field. And Matt, she got me through that, you know, but like, he's helping me sell some courses. Right.

But it's right, that's, but that's, that's the magic of it. And every someone will buy something. Was it Billie Jean's marketing, right? So he just did, I think, I don't know if there's something with, I don't know if he's, he's like going on break or he's going out. Something was advertised. And he did an add-on for $9 add-on, right? Like a, like a, like a whatever they've got, what they call it, an upsell. Yeah, it was a $9 add-on for nothing. For $9 more, you can buy nothing from me. And he made apparently thousands and thousands of dollars on that $9 buy nothing from me upsell.

Well, stop giving me ideas, right?

In other words, was he giving away stuff so cheap that people were willing to give it as a $9 tip? Yeah, all he had to do was just add— instead of calling it a tip, it's just, I'm gonna just try this out as a marketing thing. And if no one buys it, I'm not losing anything. But if someone does buy it, I got one of the at least $9 more. And I'm waiting to see on his social media how many thousands of— I'm sure, like, I've gotten so much. One person said, I've gotten so much value out of you. And what you just offered was so cheap. The $9 was still way more— way less than what I would have thought I was gonna spend to get what I got from you. Yeah.

Well, it's Black Friday. So you're gonna see all fun courses and one-time offers. I've got one coming out for the Content Factory's PR.

Okay, cool. So let's talk about that.

Yeah.

So let's talk about all the different things that people can connect with you. They can get your services, they can get your resources. So let's walk through that quickly in the next few minutes before we wrap up.

Sure. So I can give you, I've already got these videos on YouTube and guides that are written. So I'll hit you with the How to Hack Craigslist for Remote Work, which walks you through the exact process that I used. I've got a ton of free guides on SEO that I'll send your way just to like link to. And then if people are interested, I think the most interesting project is the Workationing podcast. Because it's fun. Uh, maybe don't listen to it around the kids. There's nothing—

or do, or do, depending on— right, depending on what stage of the pandemic you're in.

So if you're a femme who's at all interested in search engine optimization, please come join our group. Uh, Facebook, just look for the groups Sisters in SEO. And my website is contentfac.com. Kari.phillips.com. That's all of our social media handles too. And I'm on LinkedIn. I'm a big fan of LinkedIn. If anyone wants to shoot me a connection, I'll make sure to accept that request. Say that you came from this podcast though. So I know.

Yeah, yeah, that's definitely right. And it's very— it's K-A-R-I-D-E-P-H-I-L-L-I-P-S. And you'll see CEO at the Content Factory and co-founder of Sisters in CEO Facebook group. So that we make you more more famous.

I love it.

Yeah. I love it. So awesome. I really want to thank you for your time. I know there's so much more we can probably tackle. There's so many verticals we could have gone down. I just kind of wanted to like, you know, absorb a little, a few nuggets from each so people out there can just hear one, how awesome you are and all the cool stuff that you're doing. But also like, you know, like we were talking before, like I'm trying to create a space as a male podcaster to have as many female entrepreneurs and female leaders in the different worlds that I do with psychology and alternative medicine, natural wellness and and entrepreneurship. So I'm really glad that we were able to get connected and to share this time together.

I am too. Thank you so much for having me. And if you ever want to have me back, I can teach you guys how to become more famous on a DIY basis.

Yes, let's do it. Let's do it.

Anyone can do this, you know? Right, right.

Let's do it. Let's make it happen.

Awesome.

All right. All right, guys. So again, for those of you who've been checking out the podcast, please check out— what's the name of the podcast again that you were just mentioning for yourself?

What?

The Workation Podcast. So please check that out. And again, those of you who are here online, please do us a favor and leave us a written and starred review. Not only does that make me feel good about myself, you know, because, you know, that's what therapists need to feel good about themselves. But it really actually helps us get out in front of other people and move our way up the rankings so other people who are like-minded can get the value from all the amazing guests who've shared their time with us. So again, thank you so much. And we'll talk to you guys soon.

Thanks for listening to the You Winning Life podcast. If you are ready to minimize your personal and professional struggles and maximize your potential, we would love it if you subscribe so you don't miss an episode. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at You Winning Life.