Ep. 95-Christophe Zajac-Denek Is Really, Really A Big Deal!

This is the You Winning Life Podcast, your number one source for mastering a positive existence. Each episode we'll be interviewing exceptional people, giving you empowering insights and guiding you to extraordinary outcomes. Learn from specialists in the worlds of integrative and natural wellness, spirituality, psychology, and entrepreneurship so you too can be winning life. Now here's your host, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified neuro-emotional technique practitioner, trainer and certified entrepreneur coach, Jason Wasser. All right.

So welcome back to the You Winning Life podcast. And today's guest is a person who without a doubt fits the motto of winning life. He was born in Metro Detroit, Michigan area, now living in the beautiful mountains of California and is a Michigan State University um, my cousins went to Michigan. They didn't go to Michigan State, but we'll get into that rivalry later. He's been working as a TV producer for local community stations, started a rock band playing drums and toured both the United States and Europe, opened up for Iggy Pop, the Motion City Soundtrack, My Chemical Romance, OK Go, and more. Moved back to Hollywood to pursue music, ended up working in the acting and filming industry as a stuntman. He's worked on TV shows such as Twin Peaks, Jimmy Kimmel Live, Oz the Great and Powerful, Fresh Off the Boat, My Dinner with Hervé, The Insidious Four, and others. He also is the host of the I'm Kind of a Big Deal podcast, and he and I recently met in a speed dating for podcasters and podcast guests event about 2 months ago, I guess, at this point. And one of the most interesting things is that he He also was born with cartilage hair hypoplasia, has had multiple— I'm sorry, 2 reconstructive leg surgeries and a spinal fusion. So today's guest is none and only my new buddy, Christophe. I really want to welcome you. And of all the things that we could have just tackled into, there's some other interesting facts.

Yeah. Hey, Jason Wasser, thank you so much for having me on this podcast. I am a fan. I love what you do. And this is so cool to be on this show. Yeah, there's some interesting facts about me. You rattled off a couple of accomplishments. One of my greatest achievements is I've grown to 4 feet 4 inches tall. And I would say that's probably my most notable achievement.

Which is crazy, right? Because I know you and I were talking previously about the audio versus video format. And right, you and I are sitting here on Zoom and those of us who are going to be catching the video format of everything, right? There's no notable, right? As I'm looking, I mean, you grow a killer beard, which is awesome, you know.

The mountain, you know, that's the mountain, man. Would not accept me without this beard.

So it's the pre-qualification requisite in order to get to become a mountain man these days. Nice.

I'm totally stoked that I just took off.

I mean, listen, I mean, some of the bands were really popular in the '90s, so, you know, it's, uh, and the '70s, man.

I'm all about that, like I'm down with that look and that sound. That's cool to me.

So we both have a love of music. We both have a love of connecting with people, helping uplift people. You know, you and I were talking about my background of, you know, looking at my life from my vantage point of being 5'2" and not meeting, right, the technical legal terms of dwarfism or short person, but having someone in my life, one of my childhood babysitters and family friend, was part of the community, was very active in the organizations. So it was something that I've always been exposed to, even from the time of my childhood, which has been normalized, thank God for me. There's been a lot of things that a lot of people have had exposure to that is not normalized for them and still outside of their comfort zone. And for me, you know, it's thankfully been one of the beautiful things in my life of having a unique vantage point that both you and I share at some level. But I just would love to hear, you know, you were just mentioning something previously of like having people focus on the voice and the wisdom versus this like image or perspective and breaking down that idea. So I would love to just start with that.

Sure. Yeah, on my show, I interview little people, people affected by dwarfism, and I started the podcast because I wanted to showcase— originally I was encouraged to showcase my life, but now I realized that— I pretty quickly realized that I need to showcase other people's lives because my life is unique and crazy and everything like that, but other people have similar experiences with different colors and they need to be heard and they're not heard. And so one thing that I— the first thing that I ask my guests when they come on the show is, what is your height and what is your dwarfism? Because I want everyone, average height, extremely tall, or, you know, even other little people. It's, it's a curiosity, right? Don't you want to know how tall I am if I say I'm a little person? That's the first thing that pops into your head, like, wait, what? So I'm not hiding it. Like, you don't have to wait 10 minutes into my show to find out, you know, that about my guest. And the next thing is, is, you know, you move on. Like, it's kind of symbolic of what it is when you meet somebody and you don't see them just for their skin suit, you know, you see them for, okay, that Well, I'm not— if I'm going to hand something to them, I'm going to like angle downward. But other than that, hey, that's a person. Hey, that's someone who is loved and loves other people. That's someone who has opinions and feelings and thoughts and all these and jobs and responsibilities and bills and paychecks and all these other things that happen in life and all that stuff. And so that is, you know, yeah, it's out there and the height is relevant for certain things. But it's, it's not what 100% defines anyone.

Right.

Can we go through a quick crash course of appropriate terminology so that for listeners out there who aren't, who are curious, who are engaged, who want to be compassionate, can connect? So especially as we go through this conversation as well.

Yep. So one thing that I've learned, or I guess I should say has been reinforced, is that the most proper terminology is someone's— so You know, if you want to refer to someone, just call them by their name. If you want to describe someone's height, short-statured is probably the most safe or acceptable term. Little person and dwarf also fall into that category. The term midget is, you know, considered offensive and is associated with, you know, pain in our history, you know.

Yeah, yeah. And I know that a lot of the social media and like movies and like, you know, like Wolf of Wall Street, right? One of the famous scenes in that is them tossing, right?

Tossing scene. Yeah, for sure.

Right? Which I'm sure, like, my question is, is like, how much does that person have to like, whoever, I don't know if you know the person because you're in the, right, you're in the community, right? But it's like, where does one go? It's like, well, we want to be identified, right? We want to get screen time. We want to be representative. On the other side, are we doing it for the sake of making fun of ourselves? And at some level, we all have to in all of our communities, all of our professions, like we do have Even positive communities have stigmas and stereotypes, right? Even, right, I mean, in the positive way, not that there's negative communities, but every community has positive stereotypes as well. So how is, you know, I would consider you a brand ambassador in this regard, right? You are out there, you are in music and in entertainment, you are a speaker. How have you seen a shift or how have you contributed? How do you feel you've contributed to the shift of making these stereotypes much more positive of much more open, much more accepting in the communities around you?

Actively, it's been more of a recent development. I think it's come in waves for me because I think when I was touring in the rock band and then when I was shooting video interviews for the TV stations that I worked at, I think it's probably important to see a little person walking in carrying a camera and a tripod and setting up and actually correcting interviews or get, you know, getting what I need from an interview and taking it back to, you know, a producer or director. I think that, that spreads the word that, you know, it's, it's not my size that is what you need to see. You need to look into my eyes and, and give me, you know, what, what I need for my job because it's, it's your job too. And, you know, I did that for a long time and then, and then playing drums as well. I think it's also important for people to see a little person walking in, you know, loading in their drum set, setting up on stage, and then, you know, rocking people's faces off, which is what my band that toured for 6 years did. I mean, it was the most energetic, loud, bombastic band that I've ever played in, and we left everything on the stage, like blood, sweat, and tears, um, every single night. And so, you know, to see that— and when you look at a drummer you know, you really— it's probably difficult to see that I'm a little person behind the drums unless you know about drums. Um, a lot of people didn't realize that I was smaller until, you know, after the show, and they would see me and be like, whoa, wait a minute. Or beforehand, you know, I, I kind of became oblivious to it, but my, my bandmates would notice that I would be, you know, judged by a lot of eyeballs and, and under-the-breath comments, or some not-so-under-the-breath comments, when I was loading into the club at 4:00 AM— at 4:00 PM, you know, in the afternoon after we drove 7 hours to get to St. Louis or whatever. And so I think that was important. And then I kind of took a turn, I think, in a way, because I came to Hollywood and I started to get hired in for productions and for commercials and TV shows and stuff like that. And a lot of the jobs that I would do required that my face be completely covered up in prosthetics, makeup, goop, foam, you know, let's put his entire body into a foam suit so that we can't see who he is, but he's animating this character, which is so cool until you don't get any other roles, right? When you— when there's a balance of, hey, we need that little guy who's really athletic and does a good job to, you know, make this monster. He was also like the friend on this show, and he was really great as just the friend. No, it's always, oh, we got this crazy idea to like make you into an octopus and you're going to be so great about it, or like we're going to put 4 of you into an octopus costume and it's just going to be your faces there. And like you never get to not look like a jerk, you know? Like you're always this nebulous character that nobody knows about and you're just— you're— I, I heard, um, I watched this interview of Mike Myers um, when he was talking about, um, Mini-Me, and he was saying that Verne Troyer was, you know, he, he animated the prop of Mini-Me. And it's like, that is okay, right? That's terrible, you know, right?

It wasn't the full use of his range of talents as an actor.

Yeah, or representation of human, you know, like, yeah, it's just like, let's— this is hilarious, instead of having a doll, let's hire a little guy who will do it. And that's the lure, right? Like, I make 10 times more money doing a production that I don't have to do rehearsal for than I do doing a cover hit playing drums that where I need to learn 35 songs for one gig. And well, society tells me I need to make money, so I have to go do that.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I, I feel like I worked in these, in these roles and these jobs where I was you know, really showing people that little people are more than just their appearance. And then I went into Hollywood and I kind of started to do these things and I had so much fun. And then also I was like, well, why can't I do anything else? You know?

Yeah. So what's been that next step? Because I know like one thing again is obviously having stage and screen representation, right? Getting on stage, getting— even when you were saying like at some point it's, you know, it's using that as some type of— as a replacement for, or right, or it was seen as a joke. But at some point, I guess every community, every culture needs to be taken seriously by first getting on the stage. And I don't have the answer to this. I'm not even sure if I'm even saying this right. And I'm willing to like, you know, disavow the way I'm perceiving it right now, because I'm formulating the thought in my mind. So right, getting on stage is to then have the conversations with people around you is a powerful thing. It's saying like, hey, can we take this a step further? Hey, can we have a conversation about what's available? Can we have— can we talk about different possibilities. But would that— do you think that would happen as much if there was no representation, even if it was poor representation?

I— that, that to me is something that I'm still trying to figure out because there— I've done a bunch of research and I've gone back and I've looked at the history of little people in, um, and on screen and in film. And Billy Barty was kind of the first— he was the first major actor, successful actor, that that got into, um, he was on the Spike Jonze show like in the '50s, you know, um, and I've watched a bunch of his acts and he was supremely talented, um, singer, musician, dancer, all these things. There's a scene, it's like an 8-minute scene or something like that, where they're doing this whole bit on the Spike Jonze show and Billy Barty comes out during the bit and they toss a sheet over— they think they maybe put him in a bucket and then they toss a sheet over his head And then the lead guy who's singing and dancing takes two spikes and stabs them into the top of Billy Barty's head. And then they pull the sheet off and there was actually a bowl with a cabbage that Billy Barty put on top of his head. And that just shocked me so much that it's okay to, on TV, you know, pretend that you're stabbing a little person in the head. Yeah. And, and honestly, like, one of the times that the, the lead guy stabbed down, he actually missed the bowl with the cabbage, and I think it went like just alongside of it, and then he like did it again and hit the cabbage. Like, it's just so crazy to me. And this is— and so I, I struggle, right? Because Billy Barty started LPA, which is this community for little people who, you know, they come out and they, um, they organize events regional and national and international, and it's beautiful because there's so many people that, that come, and some people have been going to it since they were 1 years old. I never wanted to go to ever, ever, ever, ever. And I finally went to my first national in 2014. And there were 4,000 little people running around a hotel in San Diego. And it was the coolest thing ever. And I was just— my eyes were wide and it was so great. So, you know, Billy Barty started that. But then also, you know, at the same time he was breaking barriers, I feel like barriers to entry were being created. You know, look at— there's this little guy and we can play with size all we want. We got 50 other entertainers who are average height. This is the guy that we used for the crazy short stuff, you know? And it was only this year, or this past Thanksgiving, is the first time I've ever seen a little person represented in a commercial, in a major commercial, who wasn't an idiot. They weren't dressed up. They weren't, you know, put in a scene where it was like, oh, that's hilarious. The woman was a friend at a party, at a house party, and she's just there. There's no, like, no, it's not like we're going—

there's no backstory, right?

There's no backstory. There's no, like, you know, warning, you're going to see a little person that's not in makeup right now. You know, it's, it's— she's just there. And it's so cool because it's just this— it's an Amazon commercial, which, go Amazon, awesome. Um, yeah, the first time I've ever seen it. And I've asked my friends who've been in the industry for 20 to 30 years, they've never seen anything like that before. We've been in commercials, people have seen our faces, but we're dressed up like a cowboy or we're a mermaid or we're like, it's never just—

You're part of the scenery, you're not part of the cast in a way.

Yeah, it's never like, oh, Johnny's just, you know, depositing money at the bank or, you know, Sarah is just walking her dog. It's never that. It's like, let's do something crazy with them.

Yeah, yeah. And I know just to use the word crazy, I want to do a hard pivot into one of the things so people can learn a little bit more about you and like just, just, you know, the awesomeness that is you no matter, no matter what the background is, right? Is you're, you're a hardcore surfer.

I am hopelessly addicted to surfing. Yeah. How did that start? That started in Florida, actually. It was just we would go to Florida from Michigan for spring break. And we would go to Captiva Island. My mom loved Captiva Island.

So South Seas Island Resort?

Uh, yeah, I think so. Yeah. What was the other one?

There was another one, um, the one all the way north on the tip of the island, and it says big island palms or whatever.

I don't think it was South Seas. It was the one right before that. Uh, I can't remember. I mean, I've been there so many times. It's— yeah, it's so beautiful. It's such a beautiful place.

Great.

But there are no waves there at all.

Really good cheesecake though. And so really good desserts, right? There's the, uh, I forgot the name of the, the bubble room. The bubble room.

Mucky Duck used to be there.

Yep.

Yeah, I love that place. Um, Tween Waters, that's where we went. Yep. And, you know, I would— we would go into town and there were some shops and stuff, and I ended up in a surf shop a number of times. And I just— I don't know why. I always loved water, being from Michigan. The Great Lakes are there. We would always go to the lakes. I always loved being in water, in the pool, in the lake, wherever. And just seeing somebody standing on a surfboard on a wave just caught my eye. And at 14, I sent in my subscription card and check to Surfer Magazine, and I never thought I was ever going to get the magazine because I didn't think they would deliver it to Michigan. And so I was like, well, I'm taking a risk on this $25 subscription. I don't— I just, I love surfing so much. I hope they use it in a good way. But if I don't—

There's no real water up there. Why would we send it there? I mean, we have lakes.

Yeah.

So, and then I finally convinced my mom to go to the east side of the state and we went to Sebastian Inlet and I I rented a surfboard and I just about drowned like 14 times.

Oh man.

Um, like got, got in some rips and I don't even know if I caught a wave. I didn't know what I was doing. I never took a lesson. I just went out there. Um, you know, got, got dragged down the beach a quarter of a mile. Like it was just, it was crazy. Yeah. So that's how it started. I just loved it. I always loved it. And then now I live in Southern California and, you know, I've been surfing regularly for 6 years, 7 years. I go to Malibu, I go to Ventura. Um, And I'm— I love it so much. It's, it's so— it's everything. Like, I was listening to, um, uh, was it Bill Protzman? Is that the—

yeah, yeah.

So you guys were talking about music so much, and I love that. And when you were talking about music in society, I was thinking, okay, but they also need to bring up surfing because surfing is so much like music and like adapting in society. And, you know, you have to, um, uh, not that I, I wanted to just jump into that conversation because it was so amazing, but, you know, surfing is the same thing because you You have to adapt, you have to react in the moment, but you also have to have this underlying, like, rein on your emotions. And like, and because if you overreact, you're not going to be in the pocket of the wave and you're not going to be able to turn. You're not going to, you're going to, you're not going to get everything out of that wave that you want to get. And, you know, I've been, I've been beat up so much in surfing, but I absolutely love it. I've never yawned in the water, like from boredom or being tired, even though I'll get in the water at 5:00 AM sometimes. It's just, it's where I feel, I don't know, I feel right, you know, in the water like that. And it just, it feels so good.

Everything's flowing in that moment, right? I do believe that when you're in that type of experience, like you just said, I've never yawned. I feel that way about tennis. Like I can be like dead tired and someone's like, oh, you want to go play tennis?

Okay.

Right.

There's no, like short of it raining. Right. There's, there's really like, and I remember a year I used to do, let's say I played tennis I took— I would take lessons again, even like in my late 20s. And I remember going back for the first time on the court with my coach, and I got so like lightheaded because I overstrained myself. I didn't bring enough water. I didn't hydrate. I was completely out of shape. I remember sitting on the side of the court, like dry heaving, like so. And there was nothing— it was just like so out of shape. And I'm like, I'm so glad to be on the court. Like, this feels like crap. But like, at the end of the day, it was like, okay, it's like there was this positiveness of like just— and it didn't matter how bad I played. It didn't matter that when I met up with a buddy of mine that I reconnect with and we would play tennis once a week, I don't care that he beat me every single time. I was just glad to be on the court. And I think that's such a life lesson, what you just shared, because the result for you was something happened for you in 2019. That's— yeah. So, right. I want people to hear that, like, the getting knocked around, the getting all beaten up by the water or whatever life scenario is throwing at us, when you keep getting back on the board, what happened?

Yeah, so in 2019, I mean, I've surfed in Malibu for about 5 years consistently, you know, showing up. If I'm an actor, so sometimes I don't have work and, you know, I can surf 4 days a week. So, you know, I'll never claim that I'm a local anywhere, you know, I'm from Michigan and I visit spots, but some spots I go to more frequently. But a friend of mine in Malibu said, hey, there's a surfing competition, um, you should you should come, like, that would be cool. And it's for the— all of the athletes are adaptive athletes. So, you know, spinal cord injuries and amputees and, you know, people with all different types of, you know, they're blind and deaf surfers. It's amazing. And, you know, it's just this group of people who get out there and have a competition. And I was like, that sounds incredible.

Okay, cool.

And I knew one other guy Jason Wasser in San Diego County that he's a little person who surfs. And the competition in Malibu, I ended up, you know, surfing. He wasn't there. So it was me with these average height individuals with, you know, certain conditions. And it was hard. I, you know, when you have a 6-foot guy who happens to not be able to use their legs, but they have the arms of a 6-foot guy and the muscles. Probably better than a regular 6-foot guy because they're compensating or they're helping themselves, you know, with their disability and their arms are picking up some of the slack. Like, it's difficult for a little person to catch waves against the 6-foot guy's arms, you know. Leverage, I've learned, that's one thing about surfing is I've learned leverage is a thing and my arms, given what they are, they're not the best design for paddling. But I loved it. And then so the next weekend, there was another competition in Oceanside and the little person that I know, Ryan from San Diego, was going to be there. And the organizer was like, I'll just put the two of you in a division. And it'll be the first time we've ever had a short stature division in the competition. And I was like, I'm in. That's so rad. And I think, I don't know if I called Ryan or not. I don't remember, but I was just so excited. And I set everything up and went down there. And the waves when I arrived were big, and I was like, how do I get out of this? How do I, how do I get back out? I don't know.

I don't mean finally getting recognized and, and then you're running away. Come on.

Oh my gosh. Well, the waves were kind of crazy, and I've never surfed there and stuff, and it's, it— again, I'm from Michigan, like, it's a little bit intimidating. But I was like, you know, I've done— I know this, I can go and do it. And I came back and 90 other competitors, uh, came for this, uh, this event, which was so cool. And yeah, I met up with Ryan and we went out and surfed 2 heats and I ended up winning the division or the category, which, which like, it's really cool to win that. But you know, the coolest thing was is that Ryan and I were there, you know, and we were there for that and, and he was just really supportive and like it, uh, it's, it's It just felt important, you know, to have the two of us there and representing for people and ourselves and being out in the water when it was really tough and just doing whatever we could and being around, being surrounded by all these people who have struggled and who have been called out and laughed at and been on the operating table or been in, you know, extremely compromising situations. And I loved it. I mean, that's a highlight of my life. And I never, yeah, I never would have called it before. So it's, I'm really, really proud of that.

Congratulations.

Hey, thank you so much.

It's very well deserved. I remember, I can't remember what I was watching, but it was a, something to deal with triathlons and, or ultra marathons. And I remember seeing those participating who were either, you know, they would have been in their own, in the Paralympics or right, or in any other special divisions, but they were competing in the main division. Accomplishments, right? Regardless of what their disability was. And I'm like, what the hell is my excuse? What's my bullshit story that I'm telling about me not being able to do a marathon or a triathlon or anything when it's really just how stuck in our head we are and whatever stories we put ourselves in is just a story.

It's all mental, right?

It's all mental. It's all mental. So I'm really curious, you know, the psychology mindset, whatever, whatever cliché Lululemon word we want to use of the day. So I just lost Lululemon as a future sponsor.

So pick me up, pick me up.

So I feel bad because I'm like, just because you wear Lululemon yoga pants doesn't make you a yogi.

You know, it's like, but it's one step closer.

It's one step closer. The intention is there, but not that I'm knocking anybody. I, you know, apparently they're super comfortable. So they better be at $80. So But I digress.

Lululemon, this is the point where we could insert a discount code. Yes. You know, this is the point where $80, nah, you get it 25% off.

Right.

Do you know what my fear is? And so my sister, just as a side tangent, so sorry, right? My sister and I are about, no, she's, my whole family happens to be, my mom's, my dad's 5'4", my mom's 5 feet, my brother's the abnormally weird one at 5'10" or 5'8", 5'10", and my sister and I are about, you know, we're in the same height range. So she knows exactly what she needs from Lululemon. So when they had their clearance sale where you can't return it, like she would— she back in the day would have gone into the store knowing her size exactly for each of the different type of products. So she, you know, because you can't return it if it's on clearance, right? On the math. So like, if she knew like her size for me, I'm like, oh my God, like this. Like, first of all, I don't want to— like, I would love to have gotten one of their shorts. I know they make great running shorts and casual day shorts, right? To like be athletic in. And I'm like, but I'm like, I don't know, am I a small, am I a medium, whatever. I never took that extra step of becoming an expert on like a specific brand's sizing. So because they always end up being different the next season anyway. But, but that's my biggest fear of like, you know, I always have to get like, is it going to be, you know, pair of jeans, always have to get altered, pair of shorts are going to be below my knees, not above my knees. I'm gonna look like I'm wearing basketball shorts no matter what. Right.

So story of my life.

Right. So I'm glad that we can commiserate on that. So we screw— we get— we always have to pay more money for our clothing because we always need to get it altered.

So Man, and then if it gets screwed up, then like, that's it, right?

Then we look like we're Rafael Nadal back in the day with his tennis shorts that were his capris.

Man, I've got so many stories. Like, when you're short, you learn, uh, I, I feel like I'm taking us off the track now, but like, when you're short, you learn how much a half an inch or a quarter of an inch actually means to your jeans because it looks so ridiculous. When it doesn't look— when it's, when it's not cut right, you know, like where a regular, like below the knee, like 2 inches below the knee would be, is at my ankle. So the width is the, you know, it's just, it's such— yeah, I wear girls, I wear girls jeans, you know, it's just so much better. Yeah, they still need to be hemmed, but they're just like, they fit my leg and maybe they look a little more rock and roll, whatever.

I don't know. So it's the super skinny jeans.

I wear, I wear a super— I think, yeah, I— not to brag, but I am a size 1 in girls jeans and they fit great. They're awesome. Yeah, whoever designs, whoever designs men's jeans are—

see, that's a sponsorship you got to go after. Whatever that brand is, you got to reach out to them and say, hey, we want to get this non-gendered, you know, jeans.

And American Eagle girls jeans size 1, send me a box. Like, I'm serious, man.

So if anybody out there has any contacts with American Eagle Pick Christophe up. We're not gonna discriminate.

We'll take it all.

We'll take it all. Just, you know, make sure we can return it if it doesn't fit. So it's, yeah, right. These are, these are all things. It's funny that like, you know, my own insecurities throughout life has been being this, you know, at 42. And, and I even saw it when as a therapist, like, are people gonna like, I mean, once you get to know me, you get to know me. But like, initially coming into the room, it's like, I I don't look necessarily always, you know, that age that I was. I can't grow a kick-ass beard like you do. So therefore I lose that distinguished therapist look, you know, or distinguished anything look. But— It's a mountain beard. Right, mountain beard, right. It's still distinguished. It's a distinguished mountain beard.

This is a fire-making beard, okay?

Perfect for Fire Festival also, right?

In a couple hours, there's going to be a fire in that wood stove and this beard is going to help.

So in other words, you walk around California with an axe just for fun, just like a true hipster with your—

Exactly.

Your Blue Bottle Coffee, right? So I know what's up.

That's Malibu. That's right.

Right.

So, so the mindset psychology, right, of me, you know, getting past this, are these people going to take me seriously? Like, I'm here to help them with their marriage. I'm here to help them with their family, right? I've had elementary school kids that were taller than me walking into my office and like, oh, this guy's gonna help, right? It's all my prejudged stuff that I'm putting on them that they think that I think they're thinking about me. Me when 99% of the time they probably didn't give a crap, right? But I remember growing up in elementary school, middle school, where I was the shortest person in class, the shortest person on the baseball field. I remember, you know, one of my coaches, like, in baseball, who was a wonderful person but took advantage of my stature and put me into a crouch that the crouch size diminished my strike zone so I would be able to get on base until other teams started complaining and other coaches started complaining. And every time they would make me do that, they actually started making it strikes because it was still the strike zone, even though I was no longer in the strike zone. And it became a thing in the league. And I'm like, oh wait, this isn't good. Like, I thought it was like, oh, it was cool, I'm getting on base. But I'm like, no, this is actually taking advantage of a weakness, but, you know, and trying to make it a strength. They weren't doing it intentionally. I was good friends with the coach and I would— I was good friends with the kids, you know, and I would stay at the— so it wasn't like it was like, let's make fun of Jason Wasser type thing. It was just, let's take advantage of this opportunity thing. But I know for how long this story was saturated in my life, even to the point where I was being playful last week with a post. I connected with someone on Clubhouse, the new app that everybody's like raving about. And it turns out he's like, are you that guy that does that arm thing for emotions and therapy? And I'm like, what? I'm like, yeah, that's— I do this thing called neuro-emotional technique. He goes, yeah, we met at an event I hosted 2 years ago before the Grant Cardone 10X conference. You were at my event at that movie warehouse. And I'm like, oh my God, that's crazy. He's like, yeah, I wasn't sure if it was you. I just wanted to— but I know you did. The guy who I met that looked like you did this arm thing. And he has a picture of the video clip of us working on each other from, from the event, or me working on him and showing him what I did. And I remember posting of two weeks ago, I'm like, it's so good that I can now be remembered as the guy who does that weird thing with your arm and your emotions than Jason Wasser, the short therapist. So I feel like, like there's been some type of like evolution in my psychology of who I am. That. So I'm curious from your perspective, like, what have been some of the tips and tricks? And this can apply to anybody who has any type of insecurity about anything, but we're, you know, obviously we're relating it back to stature, for physical stature. What have been some of the things that have helped push you, get you unstuck on those days where you might have felt like shit and down on yourself and all of that?

Yeah, I think, well, that happens, you know, and it is something that's there. And to say that you don't I don't— to say that I just have everything roll off my back, even though I've developed a pretty thick skin, I don't necessarily like my thick skin so much. You know, it's there for some protection, but I feel like it dulls and numbs, you know, some feelings. And I don't necessarily like that. But being little, like, you know, sometimes you have people that really want to help you out. Like, I would go to concerts and stuff and they would, you know, you know, get me side stage, or I've been backstage and stuff like that just because of my size, you know, paid the normal fee to get in and I end up like on the tour bus. You know, that stuff is cool. I, you know, for the experience and for that, that whole thing, but I think that can in some ways be a hindrance because that can get in your mind that, okay, well, I received this treat on this occasion. Now I'm going to this other occasion and I probably should get something because I am this. And, you know, I thought about you in that story when you were, you know, doing the crouch to squash the strike zone. You know, if you would have maybe just aired it out, you would have just blown everybody away with your batting, you know, like that would have just been— and that applies to me too. If I just aired it out and just said, yeah, I'm little and you got to pay attention to my personality above my— and not my personality, making you feel comfortable about my size, but just making you hear me and like me and understand where I am. And also, I'm a little person, you know, and embracing that, I think, is— that can kind of be the struggle sometimes because there are these little hooks and these are— there are these little nuggets that we get afforded, and to expect that is not a great thing, you know, to expect somebody—

Well, it becomes an entitlement at a whole different level that we look at. But I guess like looking back at what you're saying of like being that young, right? I was in elementary school and early middle school. So what authenticity, what ability to stand up for myself to people I respected who I was doing something for the greater good of the team became part of my mission of— and I remember even in school, like my friends would like playfully make fun of me. I'm still friends with a ton of them today and they're like, "Oh, the Wasser crouch," you know, like it became like a thing. Like, and I'm like, I didn't Jason Wasser didn't term it. It wasn't like I didn't come up with this thing. It wasn't like, you know, but like, you know, this, I guess, maybe having people look at like the non-judgment of themselves from what they might have been able to do back then. Did they? And they may not have had the strength, the tools, and the wherewithal to do so. But are you making the same thought processes now? Right now I'm 42 versus 12.

Right. But I mean, also, also realizing that that is in you at some point, you know, and realize it's because Because I know I've shut the door for many years on things that I just coasted along with and just either required to happen or requested to happen or, you know, expected to happen and just saying, "No, no, no." Like, that's a little bit of a double standard there. Like, you can't ask for this, want to be respected in this way, and then also take these, like, easy shots too. And so, you know, I think that's a huge thing for yourself and for the representation of little people as well. You know, showing that you don't have to succumb to, you know, the easier money in jobs and actually stand up and fight for, you know, the stuff that you— that's going to fill your soul or show you in the most positive light. I think that that is— it's important and it's, it's so tough. I mean, it's, it's really, really tough because you push a lot of people away that, that could possibly help you out in financial ways or give you certain opportunities. I mean, Hollywood is so it's got hooks, you know, and they can dig in pretty deep. And that recognition and parties and glitz and glamour and money really are carrots, and they can distract you big time. And I've done that, and it's a tough thing. But even when I was experiencing those things that I didn't really feel where I was seen as who I actually was, you know, and I was I was in a costume or playing some role that, you know, is ridiculous, I still found value in those experiences. I still found that, you know, given the feeling that I have when I'm doing those jobs, I, I can take that and put that in a compartment that says, okay, we've done this, we need to, we need to move on in a way from this to the next thing or something else. And it's given me a ton of stories. I have so many stories about so many jobs that just crazy and ridiculous and encounters and people and experiences that no one has, you know, and that makes me special. And that makes me able to talk to you in this way and talk to other people and say, okay, I've, I've seen the dark side. I've experienced that stuff over there. Maybe the job even was for a charity, but like the people that I met in the job and the thing that I did was not uplifting. But I have that and I can take it and I can go, you know, learn from it and also measure it against the next thing that I'm going to do.

Right. Yeah, I noticed that like the yardstick, you know, or the goalposts keep moving. And I wonder, you know, and as people are listening to this, how they've noticed that like when they're trying to be the most authentic and best version of who they are, that when then all of a sudden like the society around them in that specific community or career, the goalposts keep moving, right? And I remember like just as you were talking, what flashed into my mind and what— why I'm going there is like, I remember sitting in graduate school, and the goal of graduate school is to become a proficient person in that field, right? And for me, it was to become an entry-level proficient therapist, right? That was what they were like, we're not guaranteeing you'd be an expert therapist, but you're gonna be entry-level proficiency, right? And then that's the yardstick. Then the next thing is, okay, now you have to get licensed, and you have to do X amount of hours. And by the time you have X amount of hours in and you sit for your licensure exam and you finish your hours, you should be a medium proficient You know, to be autonomous and to not have to be under supervision. Then it's okay, then you go work and you have to now really make— I mean, you can make income at that level, but now all of a sudden the conversation started shifting from instead of just being a good therapist, now you have to decide, do you want to be in private practice or do you want to be working at an agency where you're tapped out at a salary figure, right? Or do you want to be in leadership and administration in that, right? So now the yardstick starts changing again. And, and then I'm wondering, like, you know, if you're gonna be in private practice, do you want to have employees? Do you not want to have employees? Do you want to make— right, is it a six-figure private practice? And then you get there and you're like, oh, well then what's What's your branding? Are you now becoming bigger than your local circles? Do you now— it's right— do you have a podcast? Do you have passive income? Right. So in all of our stories of what we're going through about ourselves, we have to make sure that we're healthily changing the yardstick versus chasing someone else's yardstick, especially when it comes to community identification, and that we're doing it in a healthy way.

Well, that and also don't, don't trick yourself that you are actually moving the yardstick when you're not. You know, I think about all the events that I've worked and yes, they've led to other events, and I've gotten paid well for all of the events, but the events do not afford me a 401. The events do not, you know, make it so that, you know, somebody wants to hire me at their company and, you know, teach someone a trade. The events afford me, you know, personality with that individual and community, like, for 3 hours when I'm there, and then I'm on my own, you know. There really isn't there really isn't much like beyond. And I think that's what I was— I was kind of tricking myself for a while and saying like, I'm moving it, it's going, and I got these other gigs because of it. And it's like, well, yeah, but that movement really isn't viable, and it's not really real, you know.

Yeah. And I hear this conversation all the time with people, especially in the space of where they want to create a job or a business. And I'm like, what's the real population? And what are you really trying to do together? Someone was like, they had this really cool idea. And I'm like, okay, that sounds great. But what are you A, what do you think people are going to really pay you for that? And B, how many people out there are going to really pay you for that? So there's two, right? And then three is how many hours is it going to take you to do everything you need to do for that gig? And how many hours per hour is that going to break down to after all your expenses and taxes? And are you better off doing something else that'll make you a buck more, $2 more, $3 more that doesn't have all those headaches or will get you relationships that in 1 or 2 or 3 or 5 years are going to say, "Oh yeah, we've seen you for the whole time.

Come up with us." Right, right.

That they have a buy-in into that. And I think that's where like it's being uniquely positioned, right? You're in a uniquely— a unique vantage point and unique experiences to be one of the people that are going to shift the needle in this conversation. And I know that's a, you know, what you're trying to do both professionally, but also on the side, which is professionally as well, but with the podcast, right? It's, it's, you know, people assume that people who are not, you know, monetizing at a major level are not doing this professionally, but it's, it's, it's professional. And it's professional. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit more as we wrap up, like just the podcast, right? That— so what's been some of the goals and some of the positive things that have come out of your podcast? And then let's, let's wrap up our conversation with plugging everywhere that people can track you down.

Absolutely. Yeah. The, the podcast is, man, that is such a moving and growing thing. It is something else. I released 20 episodes in my first season, pretty much all interviews with other people, and most of them little people. I have— I interviewed my mom, who's average height, and then another guy from college who throughout life changed his view on little people and went from, you know, making fun of little people from afar to having some of his really close friends be— it was interesting to talk about that shift. But the show is, you know, my mantra is stories about little people that don't talk down to you, you know, it's the real, you know, it's successes and struggles and funny stuff and everything that happens day to day. My mission is to create a bridge between the average height world and little people and in my just from doing the interviews that I've done and being on shows such as yours, you know, it's exposure, it's experience, it's having, you know, education about little people and just there's empathy there. There's so many E's. I don't know why all these words have the letter E. They all start with the letter E, but there's so many of them that just, you know, are missing from our existence and people overlook that. And little people, if you don't give us a chance to talk or you don't give us a chance to answer your questions, You know, we're not afraid of questions. We're not happy, or we don't always know the best way to handle, you know, outright criticism or judgment when it's in the grocery store aisle. But honestly, everybody, we want to talk, you know, and we want to be understood. We know that the only way is to be understood is to have our voice heard and not be judged just from the visual, you know. And so that's what my show is about. I've interviewed, you know, Peter Dinklage's stunt double and a woman who won a silver medal in the Paralympics in Rio de Janeiro in 2016. Another woman who, she's 3 feet tall and she has 1.5 million followers on TikTok for her dance videos. And she has been to rehab twice and had an eating disorder at 6. Like these people, their struggles are out, you know, and they're laying it on the line. But it doesn't define them and it doesn't keep them down. And I think that's the biggest thing is, you know, we all have stuff to deal with. As little people, we have all of the stuff everybody else has and then medical issues and social issues and emotional issues. And, you know, I think it makes— you're automatically special for dealing with all that stuff. Yeah. You're automatically better, stronger, all those things. And yeah, so that is— that's my goal. With the show. And season 2 is coming out soon. I've got great interviews lined up with just really amazing people. And I'm so stoked to share them. And, you know, new people that I've met that have— I mean, like you said, they're pushing the needle and they're showing— they want to be seen and they're not afraid to have their face and their body, like, you know, out there. And I think that's really beautiful.

Love it. I love it. So for everybody who has gotten any level of value of insight learned from it, check out Christoph's website. It's christophzd.com and his full name, right, Christoph Zajac-Denek. And he's also, like we just talked about, the producer and the host of the I'm Kind of a Big Deal podcast, and that's available everywhere. And it's like, like you said, a podcast about the unique lives of people with dwarfism and crossing the bridge between little people and the average height world. And if you've gotten anything out of this podcast, please go and do us a favor, do me a favor, go on to iTunes and leave us a starred and written review. That again helps us get seen by more people.

I'm gonna do that today because I love your show so much. It's so good.

Thank you. And that's how it works, right? And it really does. And if there's specific episodes that speak to you or that you know will speak to a person or help someone else, that's the point of why, right, Christophe and I and many of my other guests who have podcasts are doing what we're doing. We just want to bring good stuff to the world that can help in some way, shape, or form and, you know, answer some pain points, solve some problems, help people feel better, know that they have a support system, you know, and be part of a community. And I think that's one of the biggest, biggest things.

Yeah. And if I can say something, I've started to say this on shows that I've been on, you know, if you do happen to find, like, encounter a little person in the wild, you know, deep, dig deep for your bravery and just, you know, go up to them and say hello if you feel so inclined and introduce yourself and just say hi and see what that reaction will be. Because I think a lot of people have fear and they could feel tentative to do that. But, you know, we're just like other people and, you know, if you feel so inclined to say hello, you're probably going to get a smile back. Back. So for sure.

And also say, by the way, have you heard about this podcast? It'll be a good opportunity to plug, to plug your new friend Christoph, right? Yes, yes. But, uh, cool. And if they wanted to write— so their website's the best way? Any other social media you want to put out there for them to reach out on?

Instagram and Facebook, Big Deal Pod. You can search @bigdealpod for Instagram and Facebook. Please follow us there. And new episodes I'm planning to have out next month. So yeah, I'm excited.

Awesome. And then for those of us— for those of you who've been tracking for a while, you may have noticed that my Instagram, uh, that you were following us on got yanked down. Instagram had some funny stuff, and I'm not one of— I'm one of many, many people that I know in my circles that their Instagram got shut down overnight for no reason. Nothing political was posted, nothing controversial was posted, just something in the algorithm or someone, I don't know, whatever, some, some hater probably tried to report it. But, um, but we moved everything from, uh, the Jason Wasser LMFT 🎗️ to You Winning the name of the podcast. So if you haven't yet followed us on Instagram, you can do that there at @youwinninglife. And obviously, you know, subscribe to the episodes as usual. So Christophe, my man, I'm so glad we connected in that, in that speed dating event for podcasters. It was great.

It was great.

And I very much look forward to obviously having our conversations continue. But next time you're in South Florida and I'm out on the West Coast of Cali, we'll connect and We'll get some good—

I'll see you in the, the Lulu Lemon Facebook chat.

That is right. Yes, we'll both be modeling in the next catalog for them. Hashtag Lulu. That's it. Yo, hashtag yogini. All right, my man, to be continued.

Feel good.

Thank you so much. This was a pleasure. Really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Pleasure was mine.

Thanks for listening to the You Winning Life podcast. If you are ready to minimize minimize your personal and professional struggles and maximize your potential, we would love it if you subscribed so you don't miss an episode. You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at You Winning Life.