Have We Got A Match For You Ep. 2-Navigating Codependency and Healthy Relationships

Welcome back to another live episode of Have We Got a Match for You? And as always, I'm here with the awesome and talented matchmaker, Chava.

Thank you. Thank you for having me, Jason Wasser. It's a pleasure. Thank you.

My pleasure. And for those of you who don't yet know me, my name is Jason Wasser. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in South Florida. And tonight we're going to talk about a topic that I believe is a pandemic in its own right. And this is something that as a therapist who's working with couples, uh, working with young professionals, but this shows up in so many different aspects of our life, regardless of whether it's a relationship, in a romantic relationship or in day-to-day dynamics with people. So, so Chava, I just want from your perspective, right? You've been working with, with dozens and hundreds and lots of people over the years in your, in your, uh, expertise as a matchmaker. What is your definition from your point of view of what you would call codependence and how is it showing up in the dynamics that you're helping guide people through?

Meaning like what type of person is a codependent person?

Yeah, what are some of the signs? What are some of the symptoms? Like from your perspective as a matchmaker who's guiding people from beginning to end, right? What would you call codependence in your own words, right? Seeing some of those things show up.

Sure, sure. Thank you for the question, Jason Wasser. So from my perspective, a person who is codependent on someone else places their happiness and value and worth into somebody else's hands. They don't take responsibility for their happiness. They don't take responsibility for their self-respect. They don't value themselves. They don't have an identity to themselves. They, um, try to find partners who they want to fix. They want to help. They're caregivers as opposed to being No, I won't tolerate this behavior. I have expectations. I have standards for myself. I have boundaries for myself, and I won't tolerate certain behaviors, especially toxic behaviors, um, towards them, right? So they don't— they, they allow this, they tolerate this type of behavior towards them. So pretty much a person who's a people pleaser, someone who doesn't value themselves, their, their, their words and You know, their opinion.

Yeah. So it's interesting that you're saying that, right? It's the people pleasers. And the way I look at it, I want to kind of put it into two different categories. One is a category of healthy boundaries, and two is a category of self-care. So one of my favorite stories to drive this home, I had one that actually happened last week, but one that happened about two years ago in my office where I was seeing a client and they were just so overinvested. And everybody else's stuff, whether they were close to them, whether they weren't close to them, whether they just met them, whether it was a long-term friend. So this was after session 3, and I took a big therapeutic risk, and I already had, you know, a good rapport with them, and I knew that they were an out-of-the-box thinker. And I stopped the conversation, and I asked them the following question: When did you complete your medical degree? And become a gastroenterologist, or what we used to call a proctologist. And the person sitting across from me, this client across from the couch, face just kind of like gave me that like, what? I'm like, yeah, when did you become a proctologist?

Right?

And she goes, what are you talking about? I'm like, well, I'm really curious why you have your stick, your finger stuck in everybody else's rear end. She started cracking up. And she's like, oh my God, I do. My finger's in everybody's butt. My finger's in everybody's butt. Meaning her life stinks because she's so overinvested in everything going on around her than putting herself first and learning when is a healthy time to say no, I'm sorry, I can't be involved, or proactively not investing herself in someone else's stuff even without them asking. So that's what I want people out here to, to listen first off. A lot of times people who are stuck in this pattern is when you over-involve and you over-invest yourself in someone else, right? So it's really like, here's a good definition. So if you want to figure like, okay, what's a healthy boundary? What's healthy relationships? What's interdependence versus codependence? It's an over-engagement in anyone else's stuff, right? And then you let their problems control you. You start becoming reactive versus proactive.

Interesting concept. Very nice.

Right? And then they blame them. Then they start blaming, "Well, I can't believe they did that to me. I can't believe they didn't help me solve the problem. I can't believe that I did all of this stuff for them and look what I didn't get back in return." And now you become the victim.

Right. Right.

All— look at all I do for them, all I do for you.

That's a typical response. Yeah.

Yeah. So what stages in relationships, right, going through the dating process, when you set a couple up to, let's say, engagement, or even, you know, as they go down the aisle, where do you— where have you seen this kind of pop up as a developmental stage of a relationship?

Wow. I mean, there's many cases. It's not specifically just one stage of dating or one stage of relationship. This is just— it happens all the time. And in various times of even marriages, doesn't make a difference, you know. Um, so when people, for example, someone gets divorced and they don't take time to heal themselves and they continuously seek validation in someone else, so they are asking people to, to validate their self-esteem, their confidence, and they're over, overdoing it for somebody else as opposed to let me take time off, let me heal, and then I'm able to step forward and have and maintain a healthy relationship moving forward. So they, they kind of— couples who— not couples, but individuals who jump into new relationships before they heal themselves after a breakup or a divorce or a traumatic childhood experience, so on and so forth. I think, I think all of this is essentially starting from childhood if it's not taken care of. That's, I think, the starting point. When you're constantly seeking validation from your parents, you know, getting good grades, and if you don't get a good grade what happens, you know, you feel like you're not good enough for your parent. You don't feel like you have achieved what they have in mind for you. So essentially having self-awareness, you know, when you're dating. Um, but I see more or less post-breakup when people don't take time to heal themselves and they jump from one relationship to the next thinking that if they just, you know, jump into a relationship, they forget about the past and they just, you know, uh, go on a nice fancy date and make their, their wounds, you know, just cover them up with the Band-Aid and everything will be okay. Essentially Eventually it gets worse and worse, worse, because then you're putting yourself into another toxic cycle. You're continuing the pattern. You're not breaking the cycle. You're not getting better.

Yeah. So again, the validation component, it sounds like it's hugely important that if you're looking for others to consistently validate you by you sacrificing yourself, you one-downing yourself in order to get the praise, the accolade, the affection, the attention from the other person. Is part of this process. And one of the ways that I like really helping people identify it is where they don't know where they end and the next person begins. In other words, they look at themselves as the superachiever. I'm going to help them do that. I'm going to help this organization solve this problem. I'm going to remind them 5 minutes before this call tonight, that they should get on the call, right? Which is not— which we joked around playfully before on the Facebook post about, right? The people should need to take responsibility and prioritize themselves first. And other people unconsciously get pulled in. "No, no, I'll take care of it. I'll remind you," right? And they jump in and they offer themselves, right, to do that, to rescue someone from a scenario, which takes that person out of being empowered and being accountable for their own actions, experiences, and outcomes. And that's a big, big, big part of it. So, right, the trick is, how do you decide to put your needs first, even if other people are going to get pissed, especially when the learned behavior is, if I don't take care of everybody else's needs, and women are very, very specifically engaged in this scenario, especially when it comes to being a mother and family dynamics, that my definition now becomes mom and wife versus me being an individual, an independent human being who has my own autonomy and my own purpose and mission, your definition then gets relegated to what is brand representation by the family, right? So then I'm always like, how do you put yourself first? That's the thing without being considered selfish, right? It's, it's, we talked about last time, the selfful versus being selfish, right? Right. Fulfilling and being fulfilled. So there's another, another example I had. So last week I had a conversation with one of my clients.. And for those of you who are familiar with this, you know, the real history of codependency came out of the addiction world of the— it used to be called the co-addict. In other words, the family member who is in the relationship with the person who is enabling the addict to keep doing their process, whatever thing it was. And then it turned into codependency and it evolved outside of the addiction world that you don't need to be in a relationship with someone who's an addict or struggling with addiction or recovery, but it's more along these dynamics of healthy boundaries and relationship obligations that you perceive that you insert yourself into. So one of my clients was talking about a cousin or a niece. And they're like, I don't get it. Why are they making this life decision? Why are they doing this, you know, whatever thing that they're doing in their life? And it was really bothering my client. And I said, okay, so we have two options. I can try to explain it to you about how it makes sense to me. I'm not saying I'm right about why they're doing it. But I can give you context culturally about that person's thing. Or I can ask you a more important question, which is really, how do you have enough free time in your day where you're not doing high-value activities that are a priority to you to be worrying about that crap?

Right, exactly.

Right. AKA, how did that hijack your day? Why did you allow that to hijack your day? Why did you allow that to become the primary thing that's most saturating your brain and your mind and keeping you away from doing all the things that are way more important? Especially when you have no control and financial obligation.

Right. Very true. I think it's also setting boundaries for yourself. And, you know, I think also an important factor to consider is being content alone. When you're content by yourself and you enjoy your own company, you, you find comfort and like contentment just reading a book by yourself for half an hour to an hour. You enjoy taking a walk. You don't need to have someone there to tell you that what you're doing is okay and good for you. You know, that's a part of not just being self-aware by your own inner self and identity, but it's also, you know, if you, if you're constantly giving, giving, giving, giving from a very, you know, um, not a good place within you, then you have nothing to give yourself. You can't give someone else if you have nothing to give to yourself first. You know, finding activities that you enjoy doing by yourself, and you're okay with going to the movies by yourself, you're okay with going to dinner by yourself, you're okay with taking a walk by yourself, and you don't care what other people have to say or think or, or say about you. You don't care. That to me is an important factor of establishing a boundary for yourself. And if someone happens to come along to share your happiness, then sure, come on, come on right ahead. But Don't seek happiness in somebody else. Don't, don't fill that void within you. First fill your own cup, and then you're able to pour it out, you know? Yeah.

Well, a good healthy relationship, if you want to put it into like a metaphor, is the toppings on the pizza, not the pizza itself. You have to be the pizza, the main ingredient, right? You have to be. And I was obviously using a food, you know, metaphor based, you know, for you. So, right. But if you think that the relationship is the pizza, not the toppings on the pizza, then we're missing the whole entire point of what a relationship is, right? Our life has to be fulfilled. You have to have meaning in your own life, not based on how other people see you or define you, right? That will give you value. Only if these people accept me, only if I can finally do enough for this group of people or this person, then I'll finally be recognized and valued. And then I can finally feel that I have worth and worthiness, right? And only get that out of a relationship versus already feeling that for yourself, that I am worthwhile, I'm deserving of a good, healthy relationship, I'm practicing healthy relationship patterns. I'm practicing good boundaries. I'm turning down the right— the wrong— I'm turning down the right people and accepting the right people, right? Turning down the wrong people, accepting the right people.

Yeah. Yes.

Right. Turning down the wrong beliefs, accepting the right beliefs, the healthy ones.

Yes, exactly.

Another layer of this. So we already started, right? Step 1 of like helping fix this in the right direction is putting yourself first. Like you just said, making yourself a healthy life as a, as an individual, right? Even if someone else doesn't like it, even if someone else gets pissed off at you, How dare you? How dare you put yourself first, Chava?

Right? Any—

that's why I think you are, huh?

Eat that slice of pizza by myself.

Exactly, exactly. So, right, and number 2, step 2, I would say is realizing that loyal— that being loyal, right, and being dedicated to someone else means empowering them, not fixing it for them. I want to say this again, because this is huge. And this is going to change a lot of people from their experience. Being a loyal and dedicated person to another person means empowering them to allow them to solve their stuff versus you swooping in to fix it for them. In other words, when someone says, God, I had such a rough day. Oh, well, what can I do to make it better? Can I bring over some food? What do you need? Versus, "God, that sounds really rough. What do you think you need to do for yourself? What self-care do you need to do after we get off the phone?" Right? "What do you think would make this better for you?" Versus the immediate, "What can I do for you?" If people can catch— if you're listening to this and you can catch yourself doing that, it doesn't mean that you don't care. It doesn't mean that you're not invested in their you know, that you don't like them or care about them or love them. But the ultimate goal is to have two healthy individuals who are already empowered, be in some type of dynamic, whether it's a friendship, a business scenario, or a romantic relationship, and know that you are not obligated or responsible for someone else fixing their stuff. The caretaker, right? So that's step 2. Again, I'm gonna say it again. It's realizing that you can still be loyal and dedicated to someone else by empowering them instead of swooping in to fix it for them. And the best way you can do that again is instead of you saying, oh my God, what can I do? Or you deciding that you're going to do something and show up at their house or show up in a conversation or fix a problem for them or buy something for them without first saying to them, What do you think you need to do? Who do you think you need to reach out to? What resources do you need to have in order for you to solve this? Two very different dialogues, right?

So there's two sides of the coin, right?

The first one, you're sticking your finger in their bum. Second one, teaching them, right? You're teaching them how to be empowered, right?

Exactly.

So here's the third thing, and I think this is the icing on the cake is that if we can accept the fact that we're not responsible for what anybody thinks, believes, or feels about us, you will have total freedom.

Exactly. That's the truth. 1000%. 1000%. And that's how you will ultimately build your self-value, your self-respect, and your self-esteem, which is so super important. Important to feel confident in your own skin, walking through the door and not, not, not caring what other people think about you. You are proud of who you are. You're proud of where you came from. You're proud of your journey. And you're not relying on anyone's, you know, validation and how you should feel or how, you know, who you are as a person. Right.

And this comes in like committed relationships already. Like when someone's like, well, I can't date them because, right, they didn't grow up in the right community, or they're not the right socioeconomic background, or they're not the right cultural background, right? And knowing that, like, if this person is healthy for you, you're healthy for them, you're uplifting each other, you're empowering each other, you're championing each other, right? The, the drama gets solved pretty quickly and pretty easily. You're not getting stuck over and over again, because that can happen in, in any scenario. But if it's all the things are pointing to this is a healthy relationship, right, and we're enhancing each other, we're the toppings instead of the pizza, and your core values are there, and your shared meanings and dreams are there, and you're right, what you want to do to create a household together and a life together, and your parenting styles and agreements are proactively discussed, right? And people are going to be, oh, but what do you mean? But they're from here, or they went to this type of school, or I don't know if I like their family stuff, right? Those are the things that at the end of the day, we have to take into consideration. But if you truly know that it's healthy, and it feels good, and it's not you fixing and them fixing you, or they have all these traits, like, oh my God, like, it's so great. Like, this person has so much stability in their life, and I am just such chaos, or I'm the stable one. And I like that they bring in this, like, you know, joy of life, and like, they can pick up and go somewhere at any given moment, like, and it's not like you looking to them as if they're an unowned, unclaimed part of yourself, which will cause conflict later on, but it's actually like a legitimately happy, healthy, and uplifting relationship, then you again are not responsible for what anybody else thinks.

What a wonderful feeling that is.

It's freedom. It's true freedom.

Yeah, it truly is. Wake up in the morning and focusing on yourself. And you know, it's— there's nothing more empowering about that. You know, 100%. Able to make decisions when you're in that type of mindset, you're able to make conscious, healthy decisions for yourself, for your future, for your children, instead of being in this type of mindset of confusion, of anxiety, walking around eggshells. Will they be okay if I made this decision? Will I be accepted if I make that decision? When you wake up in the morning and you're proud of who you are and you know where you're going, you know where your destination is, you're able to make healthy choices and decisions forever, you know.

Yep. And this goes beyond relationships. This goes into career. This goes into where you want to live. This goes into what you want to drive. This goes to where you decide you want to put your priorities, this where you spend your money. Everything is involved in this same underlying thing, which is, if I do this, what will X, Y, and Z think? And a lot of this is so unconscious and ingrained in our, you know, this process of like leading us to the same outcomes of stuckness.

Stagnation.

Yeah, and it leads to stagnation for sure, right?

And it leads us to not being fulfilled and not being content and growing, developing yourself, self-introspection, growing continuously emotionally and mentally and being able to live a healthy and satisfied life. It's so super important. This is a very deep concept and I think everyone needs to take this really, really to heart and focus on this. This is a fantastic topic, Jason Wasser.

And I think the way that we can end this is that like when people are frustrated and we hear this a lot, you and I, and it's in a lot of the posts and everything, it's like, well, why are all the people I'm dating like, or why can't I attract someone differently? Than that? Or why are all guys like this? Or why are all women like that? Well, they're not. Only the ones that you're attracting based on the unfinished business that you haven't worked on yet.

Exactly. Yes.

Because, right, you, you attract the frequency into what you're holding out in your own life. Right.

You're pro—

yes.

You're projecting.

Right, right. And your neurology, right? Literally, this is a neurological paradigm. You're only going to see and experience that which you believe. Yes. So if that's showing up for anybody who's listening to this, number one, like, let's just do a quick overview of everything, right? The concept of codependence is where— is forgetting and not being aware of where you end and someone else begins. It's you automatically on autopilot, inserting yourself into their life, trying to fix and solve problems for them versus you and saying, Gosh, that's really tough. That's really challenging. I'm really sorry you're going through that. I'm so sorry you had a bad day. What do you think you need to do? What's next for you? Right, right. As opposed to, oh, well, do you need this? I can do this for you. Oh, I can, I can solve that problem for you. And then go in doing that without them, right? As if like, oh, I get now I value, now I'm doing something good. Look at me. And then, and then what gets really worse, the kicker is then you getting pissed off when they don't give you the validation for that the way you wanted. And then you try harder and do that over and over again, and that becomes a continuous feedback loop.

Oh, wow.

And that's where it gets really crappy. And that's where long-term relationships really get stuck.

Interesting concept.

Wow. So 3 ways to get out of it. Number 1, putting yourself first, deciding what's healthy for you regardless of other people get pissed. 2, realizing that being loyal and dedicated means empowering the person you care about, not fixing it for them. It's like when you do it with, like, with a little kid, right? It's like, oh, like, oh, you had a bad day? Oh, okay, right? What do you usually ask a kid? You don't say, like, well, let me fix it for you. You say what, right? You're, you know, you have, you have your children. Like, what would you say as a mom to a child?

I understand that you're angry, and it's okay, you know, you will get through this. But at the same time, you're not going to say, well, let me make— oh, you want a cookie before bedtime? Let me give you a whole box of cookies. You're just It's not helping him, right? It doesn't.

And there's a lot of people who are doing that, whatever the cookie— the version of the cookie is, right?

So, okay, to be angry, you have a right and you're entitled to be angry. And I'm here to listen to you, you know, not to complain, but you're validating without fixing it.

In other words, right, the validation is giving them the empowerment to go do what they need to do for themselves. And asking them the questions, what do you think will help? And would you— and then I don't know. Okay, well, would you like to discuss it with me? Or even more macro is, who do you think would be the best person to help you with this? Versus, I'm going to be the best person to help you with this when you're probably not. You're just doing that by default, right?

Exactly.

Yeah. So that's, that's number 2. And number 3 is, right, you really aren't responsible, which kind of piggybacks on number 1, which is like, if you do something that is healthy for you, doesn't matter if someone gets pissed off, but really, really owning this. Is that you're not responsible for what anybody thinks or feels about you. You're only responsible for what you think and feel about yourself.

100%.

So that's our little nuggets tonight of leaning into having healthy relationships versus a codependent relationship. And Chava, is there any other final thoughts that you want to leave everybody with?

Challenges. Challenges. Break the pattern, break the cycle. Sit down with your pen and paper and write down things and traits. How are you behaving in the relationship? Are you happy? Are you enabling your partner? Is he enabling you? And do you find that you're constantly giving and not— it's not being reciprocated to you? You know, what, what is love? Love is— we're always taught like, oh, 'You have to show the person you love them and give and give.' No, that's not love. Love is supposed to be reciprocated, not constantly give, give, give. Yeah, that's not love. So do your homework. Write down paper, put your music on, and write down— you know, essentially goes back to the core value system, I believe, correct? Values. What do you believe in? What, you know, what do you feel like? You know, well, you have to share that happiness with somebody else. You can't give if you don't have it yourself.

Exactly right. It's the giving. Don't give to receive. Give because it's healthy. And you would do it anyway, even if no one was looking, because it feels healthy for you. But you're not doing it to sacrifice some other element of your life that needs to be a higher priority, or as I call it, a higher frequency activity in your day to day. So we'll wrap with that. And of course, so for those of you who are listening and haven't yet followed us on Instagram, You can check us out at @havewegotamatch4u. That's as all of this is going to go live and as future information and future episodes come out, you'll see some information there. And if you want to get in touch with either of us on Instagram, that's the best way to do it. Again, it's @havewegotamatch4u. And if you have any questions, if there's any topics that you would like us to tackle in future episodes, please feel free. You can either reach out to Chava or myself on multiple social medias, and you guys know how to do that. And again, Chava, thanks again for hanging out with me.

Jason, thank you. What a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you. Good night, everyone.

Good night.