Jason Portnoy's Journey from Addiction to Fulfillment in Silicon Valley-You Winning Life Podcast

Today's guest is Jason Porter, who's an entrepreneur, venture capitalist, and author who began his career at PayPal working closely with technology icons like Peter Thiel, Elon Musk, Max Levchin, and Reid Hoffman. He served as the first chief financial officer of Palantir Technologies and later founded Oak House Partners, a top-performing venture capital firm. Jason is a sought-after trusted advisor to technology company CEOs and has spoken on topics ranging from executive leadership to the intersections of technology and humanity. He holds engineering degrees from both Stanford University, where he got his MS, and the University of Colorado in Boulder, where he got his BS. He's the author of Silicon Valley Porn Star: A Memoir of Redemption and Rediscovering the Self. Today's conversation is definitely gonna not be PG, so, uh, it might be something that you want to take some time if there's kids around. May not be the appropriate topics if you're listening in the car, um, but it's a very powerful, profound conversation, and I really look forward to hearing feedback from everybody who has listened to this, if they, uh, got any value or benefit or any insight into the work, the process, the healing that we all need to do as a society, whether it's struggling with personal challenges, whether it's working through relationship issues, or even finding the right balance of work-life professional identities. All of these topics we're gonna get into today with Jason Wasser. And as always, please leave us any feedback. Please feel free to leave us a review on iTunes or anywhere else you can leave, so, because that helps us get discovered by more people. And hope you enjoy today's interview. All right, y'all, welcome back to another awesome episode. Hopefully— I already know it's going to be awesome because, um, as you heard in the introduction, um, not only is, uh, Jason Wasser, an accomplished person in the business world, but in the world of working on self-growth, self-mastery, self-awareness, vulnerability, authenticity, all of the favorite topics that I love talking about, especially as it relates back to psychology and business and personal development. You know, the real authentic conversations that you don't always get to hear on different podcasts where it's all about like, here's what I've accomplished, and here's the rise and grind, versus the nitty-gritty tangible stuff. And Jason Wasser, I'm really looking forward to getting to get further into that with you.

Yeah, me too. Me too.

So also, and also, you're the first other Jason in 150+ episodes.

Come on. No way.

I know, right? I finally get to a namesake.

I'm honored.

Likewise. So, you know, I know there's so many different places we can, we can start. So maybe let's reverse engineer the process, right? The reason why you and I got connected is you have this new book out called The Silicon Valley Porn Star: A Memoir of Redemption and Rediscovering yourself. So let's reverse engineer it and let's start with that and go from there where that came from, how that came about, and we'll talk maybe some touchpoints about some of the things that I took away from reading your book and as I got to know you through that. And then we'll jump into where we are today in January 2023 of what's the next mountain, what's the next discovery.

Yeah, Januarys. I feel like Januarys are always tough. It's like I feel this pressure, like I gotta figure out what's gonna— what this year is gonna be about and what from last year am I gonna let go of. And I try not to get wrapped up in the, you know, resolution concept, but I do feel like there's a goal-setting thing. And it's hard sometimes to figure out, you know, of all the things I want to do, what are the ones that should become those like really guiding lights for the rest of this year? Last year was very easy. I just had to finish my book.

Right, right. And you had a good support system, right? All the people that were— yeah, helped you get there and everything like that. And, and it is— it's, it's, you know, putting this— but there's very specific topics on here. The name is so grabby, right? And I know that came out of your, uh, your therapeutic coaching sessions that you had.

Yeah.

Um, where that title of being the porn star from the struggles that you went through came up as a part of self. And, and for those who are listening, many people are hearing the parts of self work pop up on their radar, the Internal Family Systems, IFS, and other modalities are talking about that. But one of the things that as you were going through your journey, you started looking at the different aspects of different personalities, the different attributes of yourself. So yeah, can you talk a little bit about how that came about? Yeah, obviously, I don't want to ruin the book for anybody. But I think it is. Yeah, right. But it's, but obviously, we're talking about what we're talking about and how that got you there. And then that section specifically was so powerful.

Yeah, and I don't think it ruins the book. I don't mind, you know, my whole reason for being at this point is to share these messages and share what I learned when I went on my journey. And if that can help people, you know, then I will feel really good about that. So awesome. Yeah, and so let me just, just to give a little bit of context. So you mentioned the title of the book was Silicon Valley Porn Star. You know, two things that aren't, don't usually go together. Sometimes I have to tell people I was not actually a porn actor and there's nothing pornographic in the book, as you know, you read it. But at a very high level, it is a story, is my story of a kind of humble kid from the suburbs of New Jersey who finds himself in the middle of Silicon Valley during the first dot-com boom, working at this company that turned into PayPal, working alongside of these incredible creators, Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, Reid Hoffman, Max Levchin. My boss was Roelof Botha, who's now the head of Sequoia Capital, you know, probably the best venture capital firm in the world. And having this kind of incredible experience from the outside, it just looks amazing. And it looks perfect. But turns out I wasn't really happy on the inside. And on the inside, I had this thing that was festering. Um, and it started, you know, maybe it's probably started when I was a kid and I had some traumas that, that happened to me, which I talk about in the book. Um, when I got to college, I found online pornography And it just kind of sucked me in. And pornography, you know, led to cheating on my girlfriend, who then became my fiancée, who then became my wife. And I was kind of cheating all in the background for, you know, all along the way over the course of many, many years. And then eventually I got caught and I had to come to terms with the fact that I had a serious problem. And I had to resolve it if I wanted to, you know, if I was going to move forward. And so in the course of some of those therapy sessions that you mentioned earlier, this life coach I was working with nicknamed this part of me that was stuck in this world of pornography and sex, porn star. And so, you know, the career in Silicon Valley and then this porn star nickname is how we got to the title.

The part that after subsequently that part came, you know, in the book I was reading, and then you had that visualization of the theater that all the parts of you were in.

Yes.

Can you share that? Because I find that when people are stuck in a vantage point of a story, a narrative, right? You talk a lot about you know, empowerment and no longer allowing yourself to make excuses for the decisions you make, even if they turn out to be decisions that hurt you. But how are— what's our accountability? You know, and I say this all the time with my clients, like, oh, my husband did this. I'm like, yeah, but you went on date 2 with him, and then you went on date 10 with him, and you waited, then you got engaged, and then you walked down the aisle. But you knew this all along, right? And I'm not trying to like dump on them in that negative way. It's kind of like, right, Melissa, right, was the— yeah, right. It's kind of that same vein of like, but you said yes all the way, and you never discussed any of this with them. So where's your ownership of that? And they're like, What do you mean? Like, that's like they didn't tell, but you knew and you didn't ask and you didn't provoke or push or poke the situation because there's beliefs that we carry about what type of person I would be if I did that. Right. So I see that come up so many times in the way that you shared this example of being in that auditorium. So I would love if you could just recap that.

Yeah, sure. Powerful moment for me to live through is a powerful moment to write about when I read it now. So You're referring to a scene where, so this life coach of mine had introduced this concept of identities to me and didn't use the terminology of parts or anything like that, which I have now come to learn is a little bit more common. But at the time we talked about it in terms of identities and that all of us have identities inside of ourselves that at times we really identify with. And we, we kind of make the mistake of feeling like, you know, there's this thing I'm doing, or that there's this thing that a part of me is doing. And then I, I make the mistake of feeling like that's my whole self, and I identify with that thing, and I define myself by this thing. And so, and part of saying that there are identities inside of us is it, it kind of depersonalizes it a little bit. And so in my case, I had we said this identity that was, you know, addicted to pornography, addicted to sex, you know, couldn't let go of those creations. And in order for me to talk about it more openly, it was helpful to dissociate myself a little bit and say, this isn't who I am. I'm not a bad person. I'm not stuck here, but this identity of mine is. And we're going to try to figure out why. And so that began this process of like separating these things. And there's a scene where this identity of mine whose name is Pornstar is, you know, I'm— my eyes are closed, I'm in a coaching session envisioning this identity kind of acting out, and it turns out he's on stage in an auditorium and all of the rest of my identities are in the seats of the auditorium and they're watching him and he's just demanding attention. He just has this insatiable need for attention. And probably this comes from these childhood traumas I referenced earlier. Whatever the case, he needs attention and he gets it with fancy cars, money, women, etc. And He's on the stage, and this is kind of an interesting twist, and the rest of the auditorium is like, "Sit down." They're kind of yelling at him, "Sit down. Stop demanding so much attention. You're kind of screwing up the whole party for all of us." And he gets really quiet and he looks back at the auditorium and he starts cursing at them. I don't know, you know, what I'm allowed to say on the podcast. Hey, go for it. You know, he's like, "Fuck you." Because I have been the part of you that takes risks. I have been the part of you that is out there kind of making things happen, and you're all benefiting from what I'm doing. And now you're gonna blame me for these things? You know, fuck you, you're all guilty too. And that's when I start to see that myself as the leader of all of these identities, you know, one has to take responsibility to your point earlier, but also has to recognize that this identity that, you know, there are certain things that identity was doing that I really didn't like, but there were other things I was benefiting from and that I was just as guilty for kind of, you know, essentially using that identity for money or whatever it was that it was providing. And, um, yeah, it was a powerful moment.

Yeah, the, the sincerity and the clarity of that is, is so profound. And like we were talking previous to actually starting the conversation, is like, what do we— you know, we're all going through what we're going through when we create these ideas and goals or what we want. And then there's like the what happens if we decide to give up on that? What happens if we decide that that isn't genuine and authentic? And, you know, who are we disappointing? What part of ourselves are we disappointing? What's the story that we're carrying? Or if I actually— you know, we talk about in the systems and the family therapy world, we talk about like, well, who would you be by actually abandoning this tactic or belief or pattern? Who would you be honoring or dishonoring outside of you? Right? And people like, well, what do you mean? Like, of course everybody would want me to get better on this. No, no, no, but like, that's, that's, that's logical. What's the illogical, irrational that if you gave up— in other words, how would you be dishonoring mom or dad? How would you be dishonoring your partner? How would you be dishonoring your spouse, your child, whatever it is, your spirituality? In what way? And then you get to that layer and then they're like, "Oh, okay.

I can see that now." Yeah, because so much of your life gets structured around either these identities or where you are in in the moment, um, or the, the product of the decisions that you've made over prior years or, or some time period. And if you then reach a point where you realize that I'm not getting what I want, or, you know, what I think I want, right? Because you're always getting what you want. And that's, that's my view. You're always getting what you want. And if you don't think it's what you want, it means that that desire is actually very subconscious. Yeah, yeah.

And that's the sonar, right? I really do like in that law, like, you know, when I talk about law of attraction and I went deeper into studying it from the more neurological perspective, it is neurology 101 that in a way it shows up like sonar, right? Your, your, your nervous system and your neurology and the way that you, you filter things is focused on either having that thing or the absence of that thing, right?

Yeah.

And then everything kind of like bounces off the wall because it only is looking to pick that up. That, that, that, that, right, that thing or the absence of that thing. And we can train our brains to do that with, with everything. And then we have the other things that are similar enough to that belief, feeling, or emotion that attracts periphery stuff along the same path. So as I was really reading through, through your story and hearing like, okay, so I'm doing really well, and I'm checking, right, in a way, you're like checking off the developmental stage box. Okay, so I did school, and then I went to get a good job. And then I started dating, and we did the travel, and we got married, and then we had kids, you know, then we did more travel, and then we had kids, right? Then we had a child. And then, right, all the boxes were being checked, checked off developmentally.

Yes.

That most people would be like, well, this— you, Jason, or anybody else doing that is living the dream.

Yes.

And yet there's this like inner struggle, this inner I don't want to be cliché with the wording, but like, you know, in a way it's, it's that, that the genuine connection to your truest version of yourself.

Well, and I'm so convinced that all of this goes back to childhood.

Yeah.

And I'm not alone in this, but like, I— and it's probably taken me— I think there were moments where I was like, well, it can't all be based on childhood stuff, right? I just am so much more convinced every year that goes by And in my case, I feel like, yes, on the outside I was checking all of these boxes and I was, you know, a 6-foot-tall, 30-something-year-old man with a car and a mortgage and whatever. On the outside, I looked like a man.

Yeah.

But because of these traumas that happened to me when I was a kid and, you know, at a high level, my parents got divorced when I was very young and my dad moved away. And that turned out to be very traumatic for me. I didn't understand how much so until I was in my 30s and started a lot of coaching and therapy. Um, shortly after that, or several years I guess, my mother disappeared, so to speak, into a, a real big struggle with depression. You know, she, she had significant struggles with depression, so she was either heavily medicated or, you know, sleeping, frankly. And she— it was just— that was really traumatic for me as also as a young boy. And so there were parts of my emotional development that stopped at those times. And so, yes, on the outside I looked like a man with a mortgage and cars and titles and whatever, but on the inside I was still very much a boy. And I needed love and I needed attention and I needed validation from the outside world. And the way I sought those things out was the pornography and the sex and the cars and the money and all of those things. And it took a really long time. I mean, you know, eventually, like I said earlier, I got caught. And I had to start to question this kind of, I call it my early programming. You know, I had to start questioning that programming. Like, was that the stuff that was really gonna make me happy? But what was I using that stuff to do?

Right, to compensate for.

To compensate for, was I, you know, and so, you know, there was, there was pain there. So I was using those things to numb that pain. Right. And that really is what gets you into that addictive cycle. Yeah. Because then you're doing something that you're lying about, in my case, ashamed of, embarrassed by. And so then you do it more to avoid feeling those negative feelings. And that's what really got me into this downward addictive spiral. And so breaking all of that was hard. Yeah, it was really hard to do.

Yeah, I could, you know, going through the book, there were so many, you know, the right time of healing is the right time of healing. And there's always the woulda coulda shouldas, which is, you know, we always talk about like the stop shoulding on yourself. Well, I should have done it then, and I should have admitted it then, and I should— right. And things work out as we are in the right place to do that work. You know, the opportunities that you had earlier on to come clean, to put everything on the table, right, was like, I see it, it's obviously it was logical. Right, well, for any of us listening going through whatever stress or anything that we're facing, it makes logical sense that you have either option A or option B from that vantage point because you can't get yourself out of that place of stuckness. So therefore you're in that fight or flight, you know, response, and therefore that's the, the, the binary possibilities. But it's so interesting to see, right, with no judgment of understanding how many opportunities— like you talked about, you know, um, Melissa, right, was the, the coach that that, you know, she's like, are you sure there's nothing else, right? She— and you're like, I know she knows, I know she knows, right?

I mean, from the first day, the first day, my first coaching session with her, my homework was write down all of your secrets, right? And I looked at her, I mean, there's probably terror, my face probably went white, you know. I was like, how does she know I have secrets?

Yeah, but not her first studio.

Everybody has secrets.

Sure.

We all have secrets. Sometimes they're secrets that we're consciously keeping from other people, maybe trying to keep from ourselves, right? Yeah. But sometimes there's also secrets that we don't even know that we're keeping. And this is the stuff that our bodies keep, right? That's the secrets, you know, that and Unearthing those secrets, it turns out, is in my view, the key to the healing. And where my growth and healing really started was when I got caught. It was actually the second time I got caught. The first time I got caught, I kind of lied my way out of it. Oh, never happened before, never happened again, whatever. The second time, nobody believed me. And so I had to come clean, and it was a really weird experience. First of all, it was terrifying.

Yeah, I'm sure.

Um, but I say a weird experience because it was so scary, so scary, so scary. It's a built-up, build-up, build-up, so huge, this big thing. Finally the dam breaks, and after the dam broke I had this feeling of peace. It was like, I don't have to run anymore. Yeah, I don't have to hide anymore. And it was only then that I realized how exhausting all the running and hiding and lying and embarrassment and guilt and shame, all of that stuff I was carrying that, like I said earlier, was driving me to keep doing these things, right? To keep running and You know, once the dam broke, it was like this, this moment of peace.

Yeah. And I'm picturing you in the stage of the book where you're sitting on the corner of the bed and you're just like processing these things and the journaling. And like, she's like, write down every single time that this happened. And right, this was a later, later on one. And you're, you know, you're like, I'm at the chasm. And I'm like, you know, it's like there's no foot, there's nothing under my feet right now.

And that's right, you know.

And, and obviously, like, if someone's reading it, they get an image of that. And my first thought when I was reading that part was, we, right, those of us who, whatever trauma we go through, and we, and if we do our healing at whatever level we do our healing, or at least try to, it's always scary. It's always scary because, you know, I joke that the great psychologist Kurt Cobain once said, I like the comfort in being sad. Right? And then substitute sad for whatever X variable. And this, right? So in that moment of like, you really truly like just having this floodgate open of like vulnerability and truth and a little more compassion to yourself as well, or a lot more compassion to yourself and love to yourself. It is goddamn frightening to any of us who have never faced that with also probably a level of unconditional surrender and unconditional love finally to ourself. And what that actually means is being at that level of vulnerability, being at that level of bravery.

Yeah. So there's two things that come to mind. So just so I don't forget the second one, it involves the falling metaphor. So I'll come— but I'll come back to that. I was so lucky, I feel, to have this life coach who loved me unconditionally. There's other people in my life, I'm sure, who love me unconditionally. But in that moment, there was this woman on the other end of the phone basically saying, "It's okay. This is part of your journey. We're gonna figure out why you created this and why you were moved into this creation, but it's okay. You're gonna be okay. We're gonna move through this together." Yeah. You're not a bad person. You know, don't beat yourself up. You got stuck in this thing. And, and I feel, I feel so lucky that she was there. And also my wife also gave me space when that— in that moment when that happened, you know, she was very hurt. I had to move out. I mean, we didn't know if we were going to get divorced or whatever. But she also gave me that space and said, look, this is something you're going through. You need to work on this. And by the way, I'm going to take responsibility for my side of it, which was a really important part of our healing as a couple. As you read in the— as you read in the book, was her also taking some responsibility But it's a collaborative, it's a collaborative creation.

And a lot of like with couples, you know, 50% of my week is couples work. The, you know, anybody who comes in and just says like, fix my partner, right? Or I'm just here to get them off my back, right? Oh, big red flag, big red flags, right? I don't even take those. And I tell my clients upfront, right? And I remember hearing it from the business. Well, you'll appreciate this because it really comes out of the entrepreneurship world of the complaint of the consumer and the visitor. Right, the consumer is, I'm here, what do we need to do? I'm looking for my partners and I'm looking to get to an outcome and a goal, right? And that, that will be, right, the rising tide raises all ships. Then you have the visitor, which is, I'm only here because this person's making me, and I'm only doing it to get them off my back, and therefore you're going to get the bare minimum out of me, right? And then you have the, the complainant is, this is what's wrong, it's all them, they're the contractor that's screwing everything up, they're running behind their thing, they didn't finish their part of the payment, they didn't— right, that's the, right, the blamer and the, you know, the victim person, right? Which But so, so those, those are the 3 types of people that I feel can show up in front of any of us. And I talk about those things and I'm like, listen, I'm only looking for the consumers that you're going to have to— and if it's difficult for you to take ownership and accountability about how you ended up in this the first place, it didn't start with the person that you're talking about. This has been there way before. How did this— how did these things allow you to allow this into your life in the first place? And I love how she walks you guys through that.

Yeah.

Now she holds your wife accountable to herself.

That's right. That's right. And with compassion, right? And with non-judgment, you know?

Right.

And that was one of the keys to both of us, you know, opening up and being willing to explore. And yeah, it was really hard work.

I have a client that I'm seeing— I know you want to talk about the second part about falling forward, so I didn't want to make you forget that. But I have a client that I've been seeing who's been going through the circles with their spouse. And You know, one week they're like, okay, I'm ready to file the papers. And I do have the papers, but I'm not sure, right? And then it goes back to like, well, I guess things are gonna be okay, right? And they go through this pattern every few months. And, you know, and then every couple sessions now they say to me like, I don't know how— they say that, which, which is, and I constantly reassure them. They're like, I don't know how I don't drive you crazy with my back and forth dance. And I always say to them, number one, I genuinely care about you. Number two, And then, you know, is I'm only here for you to get to the healthiest point for you being the healthiest version of you. So from that place, you can make the healthiest decision. I'm not here to tell you get divorced or stay together in your relationship. It's that if there's something new that's coming up that threw you off your ability to be the healthiest version of you, I'd rather focus more on that than why you feel like you're wasting my time as me being your therapist because you committed to getting divorced. And you made that decision and now you're back with him and you're going on a vacation with him and you're afraid of going through this process again is not driving me crazy. Yes.

I mean, these things take time.

Yeah.

It took us a really long time to, to work through and, and taking the are we going to get divorced or not question off the table.

Yeah, that was profound.

Was very helpful.

Yeah.

Was very helpful because otherwise every conversation is just so loaded, right?

By the knife.

Yeah, by the knife. Yeah. And you can't really just open up with each other and not be afraid.

Yeah.

And it turns out opening up to each other and not being afraid is kind of what your relationship was like when you first met.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because there was nothing on the line. You had nothing to lose. And so you were just yourself and you were just open and you were— well, hopefully you were just open and you were just honest. And when that started to happen for us, it was like we started to fall in love all over again as two new people. Mm-hmm. Of course, now with some battle scars and some understanding and some hard-won wisdom. Yeah. Um, but that was an important thing to take that off the table, like, so that every conversation wasn't like, uh, yeah, you know, are we getting divorced after this conversation, you know?

And I hear it in like, you know, I do a lot of work with young professionals and singles, and, and I hear like, ah, the dating sucks, and I'm always getting these, right? That why is every person— it's right, South Florida, um, right? Why are all the guys like this and all the women like this? And, you know, like, but you're, you're, but you're attracting that.

Right?

There's something in you that's like, you know, we can blame, like, but you also chose to live here. Well, no, but my family's here. And okay, but that's still, you know, how do you allow that to be a non-negotiable versus I made that choice?

Yes.

And I think that when we're looking at whatever situation in any domain of our life, business and personal and spiritual and whatever, relationships, it's how can we do that work? How can we, you know, guide and journal and work with professionals to unpackage all that stuff that allowed us to realize that what got us here probably is not going to allow us to get where we really want to go.

Yeah, that's right. Well, whatever's happening in your outside universe— so we, we would talk about this as like inside universe versus outside universe. I think Eckhart Tolle talks about things this way, you know, lots of others do as well, but whatever's happening in your outside universe is just a reflection, to your point, is just a reflection of your internal universe. Or another way of saying that is your current state of consciousness.

Yeah.

So if you feel like the wrong people are being attracted to you or something like that, or, you know, that, that you're not able to meet the types of people that you want to meet, The solution to that is nothing on the outside. It's only on the inside. You have to go on that internal journey and you have to give yourself time to change. It's not gonna happen overnight. It's not like, oh, I'll just start going to yoga and doing this other thing, you know, breathing technique or whatever. Like, and a few weeks.

Yeah.

What's that?

It helps and it builds, but it's part of the momentum moving into a different direction.

That's right, that's right. But it takes time to really change at like very deep and fundamental levels to the point where the outside world or the outside universe is going to start reflecting different things back to you.

Yeah, yeah, I saw it last night. It's, it's so— last night I did my— I'm training for a half marathon. I haven't done one since before the pandemic, so this will be my third. And I'm a few years older now, I'm 44, and I'm feeling a little bit more than I did a few years ago. And I did my longest run, uh, last night. It was a little bit over 6 miles and And I had this realization that if I'm planning for 13.1, then I've decided that 13.1 is a really big number.

Right.

And therefore, "Oh, I'm halfway. I'm a little bit more than half. I'm getting closer to halfway there," and blah, blah, blah. But I realized 2 times during my run last night to extend my route consciously versus buying into an old story of like, well, you know, I usually run for an hour, an hour and 15. I'm like, alright, well, what happens if it's an hour and a half? And then this is what bullshit story came up. Wait, so I live in Fort Lauderdale, and I know that I can drive to Naples within an hour and a half. So I'm literally taking as long as it takes for me to drive to Naples, the west coast of Florida, to do a run when I can be on the other side of the state. Like, one thing has nothing to do with the other, right? But that logic came up into my mind as a reason to just not run at all. Like, why am I wasting all this time when I can just travel somewhere and get in my car? And why aren't I traveling more? And okay, but one, A and B have nothing to do with each other, but our brain will do that. And I found that literally 2 or 3 times I'm like, all right, so I can make the right here and go home. I'm like, I'm just going to go down to the end of this longer block and then maybe I'll loop back through or I'll just go back. I'm like, no, but I already ran that part at the beginning of the— when I first started this, right? And we keep coming up with— and that's just like a very simple, funny linear thing. But imagine— I mean, you know this, so as our listeners, I'm really saying this to the listeners— imagine how many ways this goes on for everything in our life, on more difficult situations especially.

Yes. I mean, sometimes you just have to— well, I mean, I was gonna say sometimes you just have to move forward without being too focused on the goal. And we hear this a lot, you know, people's— the journey. I, I don't know what the journey of a thousand steps, right?

A thousand miles.

Yeah. Or, or like, um, it's about the journey, not the destination, right? Right. You'll see that written on a plaque on the wall in a coffee shop, right? And he's like, oh yeah, I remember that. And then 5 minutes later, or a woman's t-shirt on her way to Cancún. Yeah. Or whatever. Yes. And But I think it's really true. And, you know, to the point where after I went through my kind of transformation and, and by the way, I say transformation, I don't mean to imply that I feel perfect or complete or anything like that. I'm a completely different person, but I've got a lot of work to keep doing and, you know, lots to keep me busy.

Can we pause right there on that? Because I love that specific topic, right? Because people, again, going back into this binary, oh, I've accomplished this, so 'Now I'm good to go,' right? And I think that's where a lot of our backslides— it's not about the complacency of that, and it's not about like giving yourself shit for, 'Well, now I have this, this, this, this, and this, and I should feel bad because I've only accomplished this.' But like, the thing that you went through, the things that you have gone through, the things that you and your wife have gone through are so profound and so earth-shattering that, you know, people can joke— and I would love to talk about this in a few minutes— is People can minimize that topic given today's culture of that world of sex work and pornography and OnlyFans right now being really massive and easy way— a thing. And seeing it here in South Florida and meeting people who are doing that for employment, where it's like, well, this wasn't such a big deal. Why? Like, of all the things to be addicted to, you're addicted, right? All that stuff, which we can get to another second. But I really want to tie into the idea of like what you just said is— I love it. And I love sharing that is, okay, good. So you got through that. And most people will never get through that. And you did. So that already says a shit ton about you, my man. But that already says right now, not negating all the suffering and all the pain and all the difficulties and the sleepless nights and the guilt and the shame and all that stuff. But you're here now, right? And yes, I love the fact that you also acknowledge you have more to do, because if you didn't, then I would say, well, did it really— did you really do it? Did you really, right?

I did, because one of the, the very first pieces of this was the surrender, right? It was like that moment where I had to surrender I was very lucky. Well, I found a 12-step program, and so having a support group, you know, of other people who had been going through similar things as me was also very instrumental in my, in my journey. But yeah, I got to a point where I started to understand that this was the entire point of being alive on planet Earth. The entire reason for being here is this personal growth journey, is this, you know, what I call the climb, climbing your spiritual mountain, right? That's— Melissa would talk to me about it that way. My book publishing company is called Honest Climb Media, right? And I now believe quite strongly But that is the only purpose. That is the only reason that we're here. So I happen to have things that occupy my time. I've been an executive in Silicon Valley. I've had a venture capital firm. I still do venture capital work. I don't define myself as a venture capitalist. I'm trying not to define myself as an author, right? Yes, I wrote a book and I authored a book, but I'm just Jason Wasser, and all of these things are like pastimes during this time on planet Earth. And really what we're doing is we are reintegrating our souls, we are healing parts of our fragmented souls, and then our souls will continue on after our time here on Earth.

Yeah.

And, and so once I kind of reoriented myself around this idea that this was the entire point of my life and should be the number one focus of my life, that everything else was secondary, that was a really profound shift and has changed so much. Um, you know, probably one of the biggest things that's changed is that it helps me view all of these different creations that I might be involved with— venture capital, authorship, of, you know, promoting or podcasts or whatever it is that I'm doing, even being a parent to my two kids or a husband to my wife, it helps me not get as attached to all of these roles and all of these identities. And then I can see them with a little bit more distance and as more of an observer. And that has, you know, I'm not Buddhist, but I think, you know, Buddha said a lot of really—

Buddha psychology is great. Yeah.

Yes. And said a lot of very valuable and important things. And one of those things that a lot of us have heard is that suffering is created by having attachments. And so as you let go of some of these attachments and take more of an observational perspective,, it reduces your suffering. And that has been a really interesting way to live or to start living in this way.

Yeah. And then I'm juxtaposing that back to the you sitting on the side of your bed looking into this abyss of not having that foot in front of you. Yeah. And just juxtaposing it to that, what you just shared, to that moment then to not having that foot to put in front of you when you thought you were just going to completely which was this—

that was a visual metaphor of letting go of the attachments, right? I was so attached to my identity as this man with money and cars and chasing women and all this stuff. I was so attached to, you know, all of those things, and I had to let go of all of that and, and fall. Essentially let go of those attachments. And, and so when you let go of those attachments, it's very scary because it feels like you're falling. And what I experienced, you know, when it felt like the floor was opening up underneath me and I was falling, was that after I fell for some period of time, it wasn't that I was falling. There was nowhere to— there was no ground to hit. So if there's nothing to hit on the bottom, you're not falling, you're floating. And floating is the sensation of not having— not being attached to anything. And so this then became the goal, is to feel that feeling. It's very uncomfortable. I still fight it all the time. I mean, I, I still get attached to things. This is why I say I still have a lot of work to do. I still get attached to stuff. I'm human. Yeah. But when I can let go of that and, and feel that floating sensation and not be afraid of that floating sensation, that has been, um, very interesting.

And I'm visualizing you going into a flotation tank, gravity, right, as part of a, as part of an intervention, right, as part of a practice for to be more aware. Because I've heard that, right, that's, it's on my list of things to do this year. Um, I'm going, uh, you know, second psychedelics are now on the forefront with mental health and stuff like that. And I've been researching all of that and the, the mind-body work that I've been doing over the last couple years, neuro-emotional technique specifically, which has been so profound and a game changer for me. I stumbled into it going through panic attacks post my divorce, pre and post my divorce. And the only thing that got rid of it was this modality, neuro-emotional technique. And this starts aiming to be back in San Diego when we first talked on the phone. I was, I was in San Diego on the way down to a conference, and now I'm going back to coach their certification class next week in San Diego. But it's, you know, these— we go through these developmental stages of tools that support us. And being— there's all this stuff that scares me about that, right? You know, of this, like, well, what's it gonna uncover? And am I gonna be able to handle it? And even though I'm a therapist, and I talk about, right, am I practicing what am I preaching to the fullest level? By— of course, I love when my clients are doing— like, I have clients that have done ayahuasca and have this amazing healing moments, or client this afternoon who's doing a journey, uh, plant journey. So it's like, oh God, like, well, what am I— what are my beliefs that I'm still— even though I supported and I'm pro it, what are my beliefs about what's going to happen for me?

Well, it's, it's very scary. Yeah, it's, it's very scary. It's not anything to be taken lightly. It is, you know, these are powerful medicines, right? I'm towards the tail end of this book right now called The Myth of Normal. Oh, okay. Uh-huh. And he talks, you know, he does a lot of therapeutic counseling work, and eventually towards the end of the book— I don't want to give too much away— but he goes and, and has some of these plant experiences, and I think it had a really profound impact on him and the way that he now you know, views, views everything he's been doing.

Yeah.

As a facilitator, coaching and counseling and—

right. Yeah. And Gabor Maté is huge with, you know, as in our world of therapy. And yeah, yeah, I'm finding it more and more and more, right, with whatever any types of a lot of trauma, like NET specifically is so amazing for trauma and panic and anxiety and self-limiting stuff that we don't even realize is in there. And I'm just loving that, like, our generation, our age bracket specifically of people have these tools that 20, 30, 40 years ago— it's funny, just as a side tangent, my grandmother had two brothers, both were psychiatrists, and one of them wrote the original journal article, Anti-Medical Marijuana, in the 1960s, 1970s. Right? The first premier journal article on this. And here I am as the great-nephew of this and on the opposite side as a therapist. So it's so interesting within the span of one to two generations where we have these resources such as, right, therapy and coaching and 12-step meetings that are, that are normal. And, and that the stigma was years ago, oh, you have a therapist, what's wrong with you? And I think it's flipped. Wait, you don't have a therapist or someone in your life guiding you? What's wrong with you?

Right? That's— I, I— that's so funny. Yes, I think that's, that's absolutely true. And, um, and, and I do feel like A lot of the traumas get passed down. I mean, this is right, like the intergenerational stuff. Yeah, yeah. Because if, if someone is, you know, let's say someone— let's say a child is physically abused, you know, or emotionally abused as a child, this is a very traumatic thing. It affects that child's psychology as they grow into adulthood. Maybe they experience sort of, you know, type— the types of things I experienced, which is there's a part of me where my emotional development sees, you know, stopped or slowed down. There's a part of me that needs a lot of love, needs a lot of attention, etc., etc. Is an adult that has those qualities prepared to be a parent? It's very difficult to do. So what are you going to do if you become a parent you're going to pass those traumas down, not intentionally, right? You don't set out with malicious intent, but it's going to happen because that's what you know. And you're going to reenact those things as partly your way of surfacing them and moving through them and processing them and metabolizing them. Yeah. And so then if, if you do do that, and you traumatize your child, what is that child going to do when they grow up? They're going to try. And so that's how it just keeps getting passed down. And so I, I don't think, you know, I don't— I say this towards the end of my book— I don't blame my parents for the things that I did in my life. I don't think they're bad people, right? They were dealing with the cards life had dealt them with their own childhood traumas. And I don't go, you know, that's their business. And I don't go into what those things were. But as I've gotten older and we've talked more about it, I've learned more about them. It's like, well, no wonder they were the way they were, right?

You can move into total compassion.

Yeah, that's right.

As much as possible, right, with that.

Well, and I do think that's a healthy place to get to, is this compassionate, non-judgmental, like That was your journey and my journey is part of that too. And, and maybe I'm not happy about exactly how it went or proud of everything I did, but I'm happy with who I am today and proud of who I am today. And now my wife and I feel very strongly like our job is to break the cycles so that we don't pass these things down to our own kids.

Right. Yeah.

And that's like a big part of our responsibility and To your point, I feel like this conversation is much more common today than it was certainly 5 years ago.

Oh, for sure.

Definitely 10 years ago.

Yeah, even more so.

And, and I feel like this is a really good thing because, you know, what happens if people don't have to process those traumas and can use their energy in more productive ways instead of, you know, fighting for all the healing, you know, would they be more, you know, and, and are they more compassionate with others? Are they less judgmental with others? Would that reduce conflict, right? Um, would it help all of us feel more connected to each other? If we felt more connected to each other, would we feel more connected with the planet? If we felt more connected to the planet, would we be less inclined to destroy our habitat or do things that harm our habitat, right?

And so internally and externally, right? Our internal habitat, our body and our—

that's right. We would take better care of our health, right? And so we would be healthier. And so I feel like it's— it sounds to me, it sounds kind of crazy. Um, But I also think it's true that if all of us are engaging in this healing work, I think it makes the world a better place.

It's less conflict, less conflict, all that stuff. And it's funny because I joke with my clients, I'm like, you're going to hear me sounding very hippie-dippie. But I want to let you know that all of this stuff philosophically, right? What that— yes, it's been manifested in the hippie world, in the healing world, the way we talk about healing and journeys and potential and purpose, right? All these buzzwords, you know, all the cliché buzzwords, but like the actual, like, the fact of the matter is, is everything that you just said is so practically spot on.

Yeah. And so, and, and we talk about the, the hippie thing. I know you're kind of lightly making a joke or, you know, using the term in that way. I, I've probably done that in the past as well, right? But in some strange way, maybe these people were like pioneers.

Exactly.

Pointing us in an interesting different direction. Um, you know, that's exactly my credit for that.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's exactly my point, because a lot of people have, right, like you said, this belief about X, right? So let's use that example, right? This perfect paradigm is that, well, the hippies, but they're, you know, it was counterculture and they broke rules, or they, you know, they, they, you know, decided that education wasn't the right path, going back into, you know, in-the-box stuff. Okay, well, but look what came out of that. Like, look what came out of like, I mean, you watch the Change Your Mind documentary, like Timothy, not Timothy Leary, Ken Kesey, right? The whole thing with how Ken Kesey got turned on to LSD was a scientific experiment from the US government, right? They're like, though, they turned the wrong guy on, or they turned— no, they turned the right guy on. That's right. That's right. So that's why I joke with my clients, like, where, you know, the buzzwords that thankfully have become part of the nomenclature of society. People are like, oh, well, that's just too tree-huggy hippie-dippy. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Yes, it may sound that way, but this is absolutely imperative for our world.

Well, and even if you don't say that that's right, like, let's, let's move away from a dichotomy of right and wrong.

Sure.

Right.

Yeah.

And, and so even if you don't say that that is correct or right, what you can say is, well, look at where the alternative has gotten us so far. Record levels of health issues, both physical and mental, right? You have like obesity issues, um, heart, you know, heart disease.

Heart disease is the number still, right? Cancer and dementia and Alzheimer's and all the stuff.

And all— and then you've got like all the mental health stuff that you deal with on a daily basis, all the anxiety, all the relationship problems, you know, all of this stuff. So So if those things are the product or the result of following the rules or staying within the system or whatever you want to label it and moving away from the direction maybe the hippies were pointing in, maybe we should at least consider that other path. And I think this is what's happening now that we're just echoing what's happening.

Can you not see my Trey Anastasio fish bobblehead doll back there?

Yeah, that's right.

So I totally own my hippiness, right? It's just, yeah, right. I feel like that, like, people, like, buy into, like, you know, like, I know that you do yoga, or, you know, participate in yoga and practice yoga, right? And my running, and I always feel so bad because I always use this metaphor, and I feel so bad, like, there's a duality to me. It's like, so the metaphor I always joke around is like, well, it's kind of like if you put on a pair of Lululemon pants, it doesn't make you a yogi. And I feel bad because, like, I don't want to bash the company because it's such a cool company, right? But it's funny, I feel bad because it's like a mixed matter. Like, it's like, on one side, like, I'm making fun of people who just put on Lululemon pants. But I'm like, well, but if it also motivates you and it makes you feel good while you're doing it, but if you're also not walking the walk and talking the talk— well, I'm wearing my yoga pants, but I'm not practicing yoga— is there still something missing? So my part of my own Jason Wasser stuff is like, God, I feel bad always throwing Lululemon. Why don't I use some other brand? But I feel like it's the immersion into the embracing of it. I've totally embraced that Yes, I'm a licensed mental health professional and as a marriage and family therapist who's gone down the amazing rabbit hole of clinically researched and journal-published mind-body integrative and alternative medicine. And that's how I present my brand to the world, where if you do want someone who gets it, who does want to talk to you about the law of attraction and neurology and physiology and, and some of those woo-woo stuff and the science actually behind it, I'm your guy. I'm your guy.

Right?

Right. So in other words, I've leveraged that of what people say, oh, well, that's just too out there for me. Oh, well, let's, let's talk about the neuroscience. Let me send you some fMRIs from Jefferson University and their integrative medicine department where they're doing brain scans pre and post these type of things. And I think we're in an amazing era with—

Oh, yeah, you're gonna— you're seeing this convergence happening, right? This is right. It feels like a very exciting time.

It's so damn exciting. And I know, like, where you, you know, the therapy and the coaching you did and then going into 12-step programs, like, for a lot of people, that's all that was ever there for them. Yeah, right. And then you got into yoga and then you moved to Salt Lake and I mean, I mean, to Park City, right? And you got out of the rat race of San Francisco, LA type of thing. And those are all pro, right? They're all proactive. But it's all about being— I think I said before, I think like It's the consistency of why we choose things either to get stuck or to choose something that feels better.

Yeah.

And I think that's like really a lot of the redemption story, right? And discovering yourself. I love like looking even— so what would be under that is like, well, you decided consistency.

Yes. And consistency, but also I was willing— I mean, forced maybe, but but I was willing to allow myself, to allow these things to permeate me. Yeah. So I went to yoga. Yes, I went to yoga and I wasn't just going through the motions. I was there and I was so open because I was so raw. Like, I just, I knew I had to change. I didn't know how. I didn't know what I was going to change into, but I just knew I had to change. And so if I was doing yoga or trying to meditate or watching Thich Nhat Hanh on YouTube or reading Autobiography of a Yogi, I was in this space where I was so open that so much of that, whatever those things were giving me, was able to permeate. Yeah. You know, really deeply. And, and I got to be candid, you know, you were asking like, what's 2023 like? I feel like I want to get back to that. I, you know, publishing this book, writing this book, balancing that with my venture capital work and being a dad and a husband and all these things, I feel like last year was, was kind of hard for me. And I feel like I kind of, when things get difficult like that, I start to close up and I start to feel anxious. And I really feel like what I want to do this year, like I've already journalled more this year than all of last year. I've probably meditated more this year than all of last year.

I've run more this, in the last 3 weeks than I have in the entire, I think, to the entire pandemic. So I get it. Yeah.

Off to a good start.

Yeah.

And so, you know, that's one of my big themes for 2023. You mentioned very early that we would talk, talk about that too, is just to get back to that place where that openness so that whether you're going into yoga or trying to meditate or reading something that's going to teach you something, that you go into it with a really open heart so that whatever it is that's coming to you, you know, whatever experiences you have, if you do go try any of these, uh, alternative modalities, right, going into it with such an open heart that it can have it, you know, do its work. You know what I mean?

But just to tie this in, it's funny, I used to— I almost moved out with, uh, my ex-wife. We were checking out the Boulder community, and, um, that she was considering going to graduate school there in Denver. Um, and we got connected. Uh, we had friends in the, in the Jewish community there, so that's how we became networked with that place. And I remember, like, people are like, you know, anywhere people are like, hey, how are you, what's going on, right? And in Boulder, I found that people are like, so 'What are you working on? What are you working through? What's— what do you— what are you like?' Like, it was such a different frequency. And I wonder if you find that, like, you know, in, like, you know, that, you know, where you are as well, in different places.

I don't feel like I don't get that as much here. I lived in Boulder. Okay, cool. In Boulder, right, right. Uh, I don't feel like you get it quite as much in Park City. It doesn't have that.

But does that make sense, right? Having done it, right? Having been it, right? Because you're at CU, right? So— and my sister-in-law went to CU also, but week, um, right? I see that. Like, obviously there's the other type of mentality in Boulder also, which is, yeah, whatever it is, you know. That's, uh, that's where Elon's brother lives actually, right? To my, um—

oh yeah, it's a restaurateur, I think.

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, but it's so interesting. So I'm like, okay, how am I practicing my Boulder mindset of like, instead of being like, hey man, what's going on? When I see someone now, like, oh, so, so what are you working on? What, what did you take away from during the pandemic? What did you learn about yourself? All right, because we're not like— we can— right, it's BP and AP, right? Right. Before pandemic and after pandemic. So what'd you learn about yourself over last 2 and a half years since I last saw you? Like, what the fuck, dude? Like, I just want to have my coffee. Leave me alone. Like, no, no, no. Like, what'd you learn? Like, what'd you— like, what was that like? What was that? What was that experience like for you? You know, and I'm like, trying to bring that consciousness. And they're like, oh, you're just a therapist. That's why you're asking this. No, no, like, I really want to connect to people at that level. But it's playful. But it's also like, I wish we can practice that more. And I, you know, like you said, the journaling and finding— one of my friends messaged me last night. She's like, I found this journal that I'm in love with, and I'm telling everybody about. And I'm like, all right, Well, email me the name of the journal so I can recommend it to my clients if it's that good. And I'm trying to find the name of it right now. But is there any journals that you— I know our time, we got to wrap up, but I know you named some people that you listen to. Is there any journals, any book? I know Bradshaw, right? Was it John Bradshaw?

Was one of the books that really— Yeah, so various parts of my journey, probably Healing the Shame That Binds You was a really powerful book for me when I was was trying to let go of the shame and the guilt and the embarrassment that I felt for all the things that I had done, which, you know, took years after, after I got caught and after I surrendered and I started going to 12-step programs and started repairing trust with my wife, started repairing trust with myself. Um, uh, there were a lot— several books during that time. Healing the Shame That Binds You was one of them that was really instrumental. Right now, um, I'm, I'm finishing up The Myth of Normal, which I really liked. It's a very— it's a big commitment, but it's incredible. And frankly, I think if you're in the business of coaching and counseling or, or being a therapeutic advisor of some sort, I almost feel like it's mandatory reading. Wow. I mean, it's okay. I think it's incredible.

Yeah.

Um, I've also been very focused on, you know, we won't have time to— maybe we'll do another show at some point, but that'll be amazing. Masculinity. You know, I kind of grew up as a boy thinking if I get lots of money, fast cars and hot women, I'll be a real man. And I bumped up against the limitations of that programming in a big way. And I had to redefine what does it mean to be a real man. And then I had a son, and then I really had to get clear on like, what is masculinity? How am I supposed to be a mature, you know, empowered adult male in our modern culture? And so I've been— I usually have a book or so that I'm reading on that thread as well, and the one I'm finishing right now is called Grow by a guy named Oleg.

Which was a theme in your book as well that you are directed to and kind of challenged out on.

That's exactly right. So that one's been interesting.

Yeah, the whole alpha. I mean, we obviously saw in the news over the last couple of weeks someone who proclaims that lifestyle and teaches that lifestyle to other adult males or other males got arrested recently for some stuff.

Oh, I don't know the story.

Oh, yeah. Well, there's a— I don't know, whatever. Andrew Tate.

Okay, well, I'm, I'm sure it's a big story. I— one of the things in December, I blocked CNN from my phone, so I've like tuned out lots of news.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's everywhere, right? But it's like, that was that whole like, here's how to be a masculine male and blah blah blah, right? And all these things. And you know, it's everybody— like, even a clock is right twice a day type of thing. So it's kind of like, like, you know, and everybody's like going down on Jordan Peterson or this, and that's like, well, you're a therapist, how can you like— and you're— you believe these? I'm like, And like, you know, you got to listen to, you know, taking in information and then sifting and sorting through it. This is a whole nother conversation as well, which I would love to have with multiple people that I've had. I have a panel of advisory. Let's do it. Right. And you and I would love it because you'd be a perfect person for this. And I'm thinking of 2 or 3 other people. I have like this panel of advisory of like, okay, let's pick this topic or this person or this controversial thing and let's break through it from—

I love it.

Right. And that would be such a cool idea.

We just took your show to the next level.

Whole nother level. Right. It's— yeah, yeah. And I think I would call it my trusted advisors.

There you go.

That's, uh, yeah. So, right, but there's this whole thing of like toxic masculine alpha males, and alpha and betas are so big right now, and especially in the, you know, dancing itself out of the world of certain politics and stuff like that. And it's becoming— right, when you talk about like the disconnects that people have in the world of like, if only we realize this, if only we practice this compassion, if only we practice more of it, like, I don't think any of these things would be happening. And it's really It's so painful. It's so painful to watch. It's so painful to experience. It's so like, I feel it in my chest and it like, it breaks my heart because I have people who are in that world who I adore and I love that are friends of mine that might be like, you know, into some of that stuff. And I'm like, but I love you and I'm not gonna let go of your humanity because I don't want you to let go of my humanity if I vote differently or if I believe differently, right? You know, and I don't know, that's a whole nother side topic, but Yeah, no, it's good. Good stuff.

Sorry.

I know you and I are very— there's a lot of stuff from your book that I really felt a lot of, you know, just shared from my parents' divorce as well. And I was born in Scranton and family's in Jersey, and I moved to South Florida. But there's just a lot of, you know, as early on in your book, I'm like, you know, even before we talked, the first conversation, I already started, you know, started reading your book. And I'm like, I— so anyway, guys, ladies, everybody listening, Check out JasonPortnoy.com. Right, Silicon Valley Porn Star. The title freaking grabs you and has nothing to do with being a porn star, right? But it's a really, really powerful— if you want a glimpse into true journey, what it's like to go from the risk of constantly having your life being torn apart and being at the moment where it was, and redemption and healing and doing the work, not just talking about the work. Then please, please check out Jason's book. Um, anything else that you want to throw on there?

And I mean, thank you. Yeah, I just want to say thank you. This was really fun, and I really appreciate you having me on the show and, you know, reading the book, and, and I'm so glad it resonated and I really have a lot of appreciation right now. I really enjoyed this.

Yeah. So we're gonna put some of the books that Jason Wasser talked about in— was there a journal? Was there any journal that comes to your mind?

There's not. I just, I just write on my laptop.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay. So you just brain dump in a way?

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

Okay, cool.

Because sometimes it's like a precursor to being able to meditate, frankly. Oh wow. Because I'll— because I just like brain dump for 15, 20 minutes and then my mind chatter is quiet enough that I can sit.

So maybe part of our next conversation, and those, if you want, if those of you listening want this, reach out to both of us, maybe like walking us through that process. And maybe, maybe in a way we can use an episode to go more into doing the specific types of work that you found helpful to you. And maybe sharing some of those processes in a step-by-step format. Because I do write the nitty-gritty, right? Where, you know, it's like, like Gary Vee talks about the clouds and the dirt, right? The macro—

I know people are like, okay, that's great, that's wonderful, but how did you do it?

Right, right. And stay consistent and do right. It's really— so yeah, so that maybe that'll be the jumping off point for, for conversation number 2 with the talk about masculinity and all these other things.

So, all right, sounds awesome, my man. Good.

All right, to be continued. All right, take care.