You Winning Life Podcast Ep. 149- "Be Ready For Anything" with Spartan Race Founder Joe DeSena.

I am super excited for today's guest. He is Joe DeCena. He's the founder and CEO of Spartan Race. He has been an entrepreneur since his preteens, where he started selling fireworks at 8 years old, to having a t-shirt business in high school, and then building a multi-million dollar pool business in college. He then went off, created a Wall Street trading firm, and he is the living definition of an entrepreneur. Joe is a New York Times bestselling author of Spartan Up: A Take-No-Prisoners Guide to Overcoming Obstacles and Achieving Peak Performance in Life, and Spartan Fit: The 30 Days Transform Your Mind, Transform Your Body, Commit to Grit, as well as his most recent book called 10 Rules For Resilience: Mental Toughness for Families. He is the co-host of the, uh, Spartan Up podcast, and, uh, you can see him also on his newest show, CNBC's No Retreat, which is bringing businesses and business owners together to his farm in Vermont to do Spartan course type training, bringing leadership and problem solving together. So it's my absolute pleasure to welcome Joe to the podcast. All right. So Joe, first of all, thank you so much. And as we just shared, I met you briefly at the GoBundance conference about a month and a half ago. And one of the most amazing things about seeing you speak, and I unfortunately had to leave halfway through your presentation to do another interview, was how many times you made us do burpees during your presentation.

I'm a big believer in health and wellness. My mother was into health food in the early '70s. She met a yogi and she brought all these crazy thoughts that were so new age into the house that it led to a divorce between my dad and my mom. But it stuck. It eventually stuck. I resisted, I resisted, I resisted. And I used to clean swimming pools when I was young. A lot of swimming pools, believe it or not, for mob bosses. And I remember sitting there cleaning, you know, 700 swimming pools a week. It got to eventually and thinking, wow, the human body is exactly like a swimming pool. The human body has a pump and a filter, and it's mostly water. And I'm constantly trying to help these swimming pools that are turning green not to turn green. And if I was to turn off the pump, the pool would turn green. If I was to clog the filter, the pool would turn green. If there were too many leaves in the pool, the pool would turn green. And I remember sitting there— again, I did this for like 12 years. Sure. Swimming pools a week during the season. I remember sitting there, think, or standing there thinking, wow, if we turn off our pump, our heart, we turn green. If we don't clean our filters, we turn great. So like And then we expect this little body, this little 13-gallon swimming pool, the human body, we expect it to like process burgers and fries and ketchup and coffee and ice cream and like a 20-pound— right? Like, so, yeah, so the burpees to me are cleaning the swimming pool. It's that simple.

You're priming the pump. And that's one of the things, as I did a deep dive into, into all of your stuff and I've read all the books and I don't even know how many hours of YouTube videos and interviews that I've seen at this point, but You know, one of the things that I really love and appreciate what you're doing is besides the fact that you created Spartan and, and you created a community and you're changing people's lives is actually the psychological changes that are happening for people in your community and the amount of just awareness of how you can transform things so simply with a consistency. So you talk about turning your childhood emotional pain into an outboard motor. So, right, there's a whole process about that in one of the books. But the question on that is, how do you determine, how does a person determine what's healthy versus unhealthy for them when they're doing that? Because a lot of times people might try to avoid, right, you talk about avoiding discomfort or blocking pain. So how have you figured, or how would you guide people to determine that really what is that true well-being healthy versus unhealthy, especially if they're going into a Spartan Race community or some type of health community or something like that where it doesn't get stuck in ego, it doesn't get stuck in the BS, and go really true with that authenticity and health.

So the way I think about it is we're all addicted to something. Most of us are addicted to comfort, most of us. And I just look at it and say If we're all addicted to something, let's make sure that something is more healthy than the other thing. So, you know, if you go all in because of your childhood issues into drinking or drugs or, you know, you name it, I would say that's in the unhealth— eating unhealthy class. If you're taking that energy, those issues and you're running, maybe you're overrunning, maybe you're running 15 miles every day, 7 days a week, and you're like, it's probably too much, but I'd rather have that than the other. Mm-hmm. Right? So I accept that we're all addicted to something, and I think I can draw the line on what's healthy and what's not. I'm definitely addicted to work. My expression of my child, right, it comes out. In the workaholic tendencies I have. But, you know, the other side of my family isn't. And thank God my wife recognizes my unbalance. But it's healthy. It's not as healthy as if I had toned it down a bit, but it's healthier than, you know, I'm not playing golf every day. I'm not flirting with women. I'm not drinking. So that's my thing. I work. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and one of the things when you met your wife, right, you met her, you guys were at a competition together, right? So I talk about this all the time with my clients, whether it's for relationships or dating or business-related stuff, is the idea of core values and, and meeting people in the places where you want your ideal life to be, finding business partners in the ideal environments, right? Like you said, I'm not going out and drinking and flirting and all those other things. So when we're looking for to streamline the chaos in life, right, it's simplicity on the far side of complexity. When people are doing some type of training program, when they're like signing up for a Spartan race and they're afraid to do that, how would you suggest they make it the simplest? It's obviously effort and it's obviously work that needs to be consistent, but how would you suggest them setting up one, the mindset, and then the practical application of moving into that goal?

Well, again, when I talk, I talk in generalities across our entire, entire society. So, um, we are not going to do what needs to be done in general to be healthy, to be fit, to be our optimal selves. We're just not going to do it. However, we do it and we take it seriously when our back is against the wall. When we find out, God forbid, that we're sick. When we have a wedding coming up and we are the groom or the bride and we want to look our best.

Yeah.

When summer is approaching and we have to wear a bikini when there's a race on the calendar, when a boxer all of a sudden takes the title fight, now the boxer has to stop eating the burgers and start training. So what I found, the life hack that I found, is you got to get a date on the calendar. Without it, most of us are just not going to do the work. So get a date on the calendar, and the problem, the paradox with it is most people say, well, I'm not ready. For that date. And I said, my response is, that's what gets you ready. Yeah. Otherwise you're not going to do the work. Like, if I try to say this over and over, I don't know if people get it. If you would do it on your own, then here's the way the world would work. The US military, instead of wasting all that money at boot camp and everything else, would just hand you a manual and say, hey, read the manual, do all the work, we'll call you if we have a war. They don't do that because no one would get in shape, no one would learn what they're supposed to learn. Professors and colleges wouldn't need buildings. They would just say, 'Here, here's the coursework, do the work, we'll take a final at the end.' It doesn't happen that way. So, um, so you gotta have a date on the calendar, and then I would say, now that you've got that pressure, that accountability, it really is this simple, what I'm about to say. Life is this simple. I wrote a tiny little book, cost me 40 cents to print them. You can get them for free online. It's called Ready for Anything, okay? And in the book it explains what I'm about to say, which is just drink more water, less of everything else. 90% water every day. Just drink more water. You're going to be mentally happy, you're going to be more physically fit, you're going to feel better. Sweat every morning before breakfast. Earn your breakfast. Came from Jack Lalanne. It's so true because for most of our existence on the planet, we had to earn our breakfast. We didn't have a fridge in the cave or Uber Eats back then. We had to do the work in order to eat.

Sure.

There's a whole host of other biological benefits to sweating before you eat. Like, we shouldn't get dopamine hits in our brain before we do the work. And now we can get dopamine hits in the brain before we do because we can just swipe up. We could order, we could turn the temperature, like, and so we don't have to do any work to get this dopamine, to get this food, and that, for lack of a better word, that fucks with our heads.

Sure.

Beneath the surface. So sweat before breakfast, drink more water, go to bed early. Like, I understand if you have a night shift, if you're working late at night, then all bets are off, but for 99% of us, go to bed early and Like nothing good happens after 11 PM. There's nothing good that happens.

Like, well, aren't there— might be repeats of your show on CNBC at 11 PM. So that's a good excuse.

So, so, um, so go to bed early. Um, wake up early. I'm not a morning person. Become a fucking morning person.

Yeah.

Um, the body and the mind are designed to be up when sun is coming— when the sun is coming up. And to be down when the sun is going down. So that should be logical to anybody listening. I get it, if you work a night shift, all bets are off. Take a cold shower. Take a cold shower. Why the hell would I take a cold shower? I spend all this money on hot water, this beautiful house, why would I take a cold shower? Because there's so much science that it builds your immunity, it improves circulation, it makes you happier even though you're miserable when you do it. Reconnects the brain and body. Literally, this vagus nerve gets strengthened, the connection between the brain and body, by taking cold showers. So there's like 12 things. If you did them— take the stairs instead of the escalator. I've been to fitness conventions where there's like 10,000 fitness professionals and there's a staircase next to an escalator, and the entire, the entire room is taking the escalator.

And I don't understand it, like the obviousness of that.

Yeah, yeah, take, take the stairs whatever chance you get. And then, and then, um, salad, more salad, less everything else. Uh, and, and don't turn your salad into a pizza. Um, eat, eat salad, a little oil and vinegar. Um, eat as much as you want. 10 pounds of salad if you want, and, you know, cut back on everything else.

So you're going back to basics, which it really was, right? You're stripping away all the BS, all the, right, the guru stuff of do this thing and do that diet. And, and, and it is accurate and is spot on because I do see the benefits of people who are connected to your community. And, um, you know, I'm planning on, on signing up for the Jacksonville one in February. And, you know, as I was processing that, having them like, how can I, how can I have Joe without committing to doing something in return for that. And I realized my fear—

I have a challenge for you.

Yeah.

You're in Jacksonville. Here's what I want you to do. You have a charity you're connected to? Go Abundance?

Well, I have multiple. Yeah. I mean, Go Abundance is— I was just there for that weekend and I know that you committed to giving charity.

You're in charge of getting 300 people to run with you. They've never run before. We're going to give all the money to the charity of your choice. Okay. And that's what I would challenge you with, which it's not going to be easy to convince 300 people. It's very hard. But, um, but you have a podcast, right? Where you have more than 300 people listening. So what a great way to energize and activate your community. We're not going to break any records. What we're going to do is get a date on the calendar for these people. That's what our goal is. And so I give that to you and I hope you take it.

I completely going to take it. And, and that's why I say like people signing up, right? Me thinking about this, right? Um, you know, I was healthy and an athlete when I was younger and then life happened and I'm finally back into it. And, and that's a big step for a lot of people. And I've known that you talk about like 80-year-olds doing it and your kids have done it and all these things. How do we take away that fear, right? I know you talk about committing it, putting on the schedule, but you know, going into something where it's like, well, I'm gonna get dirty and I might, you know, people might throw up or I might, you know, how do you, how do you get beyond that fear factor of whether it's signing up for Spartan, whether it's doing anything that's big where the fear starts setting in? What would you—

I go back to, um, I go back to the most dangerous thing in life is, um, inaction. You're just, you just won't move, you're frozen. And I had so many friends when I was growing up that didn't want to start the business with me, that didn't want to go to college when I went to college, that didn't want to go to Wall Street when I went to Wall Street. And they had good, all good reasons at that moment. Maybe it was fear-based, whatever it was, but they sounded logical. And time just passed them by. And I've heard enough regrets in my life that, um, and I realize that they're not real threats when we're afraid of them. Like, a real threat is a lion coming out at you, right? A bear that you're facing in the woods alone. You're in the Ukraine and you're surrounded by the enemy. Like, those are real threats. The stuff that scares us What I would say is write it down. I'm really afraid of this. I don't want to do it. And then look back 30 days and see— look at all those fears and see how many actually transpired. None.

Yeah.

They're not legitimate fears. And so if you want to live your life in fear and inaction, you're going to have a lot of regrets. And once I learned that, I just turned around and said, fire, ready, aim. I'm gonna take action, right? I'm gonna get ready, and then I'll fucking figure it out later.

Which makes so much sense because I know we get stuck in that like paralysis, analysis paralysis, right? And then therefore we take ourselves out of the experience or just not committing or doing anything. And one of the things I've learned about you in the last little bit is like, I'm really impressed with how on one side you can be a total ass-kicking badass, and on the other side you have this incredibly compassionate passionate, very loving, very caring personality. And a lot of people don't get this about like once you get involved in like a fitness community, or you go all in on work and you become a crazy entrepreneur, that you find this imbalance in people's personalities. And listening to a ton of your, you know, your podcasts and your YouTube videos and other things that you've done and watching you on TV, like, and just reading your books and having you talk about your children and your family, it's beautiful to see. That there's this, you know, rejoined of both sides, right? Like, people are like, well, you have to be all alpha, and they have to go out there and do this, and then the betas aren't going to be anything and accomplishing anything, and you lose the emotional side. How have you been able to weave those two things together? I know you talked about your parents' divorce and a lot of the conflicts that come up with that in a lot of your, you know, your podcasts and everything like that, in your books. What have you done to really merge those two sides of you together?

I mean, I read a lot. I have a podcast. I interviewed a lot. I, um, when I was cleaning those 700 swimming pools, imagine being able to peek in the window of 700 homes and get to watch the families that did it right and the families that did it wrong. Um, I worked on Wall Street. I got to do the same thing with a bunch of CEOs and got to meet all kinds of companies that were doing things right. And the ones that were doing something wrong. And I've had 10 million people do a Spartan or a Tough Mudder event. So I get to see a lot of people doing everything right or everything wrong. Yeah. And one thing's for sure, being humble, being compassionate, being willing to help is actually a more powerful tool than, you know, having a tough exterior and taking no bullshit. So the side of Joe that is take-no-bullshit, tough exterior is really just trying to make you accountable and kick your ass in the way it needs to be kicked. The other side is, you know, from my mom, which is just be a good person. I don't care what religion you subscribe to, just be a good person. You know what right and wrong is. And believe it or not, I had a wise guy, I had a tough guy say to me, I remember, he's gone now, but sitting at his long table, he was one of my pool customers, he was smoking a cigar, his wife was cooking meatballs, and he said, "You know the best thing you can do on this planet?" This was a guy that killed people for a living.

Right.

He said, "You can help others." So I don't know if he was having a moment of reflection or what it was, But when the boss talked, I listened and I tried to help people.

Yeah. Well, in the story of your childhood, of like growing up in that environment and then knowing that you did want something more, seeing the conflict between your parents— or my parents are also divorced and I very much relate to a lot of the things that you went through where I naturally, I feel like realizing now how I much more leaned to my mom as an educator and how therapy kind of was like that outgrowth of the next, you know, the next step of like honoring my mom in some way. And my family on the other side has a family furniture business, a third-generation furniture business. And I actively chose not to go into that because of family drama and conflict. And now, as I've circled around in understanding what true entrepreneurship is and understanding what leadership is and understanding how psychology and all these things coming together, I'm finding this like healthy merging back of the different parts of me that I shunned and rejected. And I think a lot of what you're talking about, and I've seen it like, you know, even with like Wim Hof, when you're talking about the taking the cold showers and all that stuff like that, and the breathing exercises, right, the discomfort and allowing yourself to just move that little step forward, that extra step, that extra thing, and seeing it on the show with the people you come in and like, they're like, you can watch them and like, there's no way that any of these people would do it without someone holding them accountable. So how do we find the right people to hold us accountable? Because I'm finding a lot of times people are just searching out there for, right, the quick gurus or the quick success program or the— and they're not really going into that true deep accountability. So here's some of the thoughts on that.

It's going to sound self-serving, but, but it's not. I'm doing this a long time. I've seen everybody come and go. The latest Suzanne Somers gimmick, um, you name it, um, Jacqueline Juicer or whatever. Not that gimmick, like, I'd rather you drink, you know, fresh vegetable and fruit juice than, than the stuff that's coming out of a can or Plastic bottle, but it's really, really simple. You're not going to do the work if you don't have a date on the calendar. It's not going to happen by reading a book. It's unfortunately not going to happen by listening to a podcast. It just doesn't work. You could talk all you want about it. Talk is cheap. You need to sign up for something hard, and that's when change occurs. Sure, there might be a tiny percentage, somebody like you or I that reads a book or something and that fires us up, but we were already fired up.

Yeah.

Everybody else, 99% of the people are sleepwalking through life. They're not getting it done. Just look at the data. They're just not getting it done. They have to sign up for something hard. You're not turning coal into diamonds without pressure. Sorry, I wish I had a better answer for you, but yeah.

And that pivots perfectly into the parenting book that you wrote about families. And, um, you know, where it is this catch-22 of, you know, the psychology of what's overcoddling, undercoddling, putting them into pressure situations, stepping in and helping and uplifting and putting on our shoulders, all the different dimensions of that. When you talk about parenting and having your kids do the things that you've done or putting them out in these circumstances, a lot of people, right, you've talked about, like, people think like, well, that's crazy, this guy is pushing too hard. And I know there was a case of, I think it was your social media, someone's social media, where they talk about some kid who they had their kid run a half marathon and child protective services showed up at their house. What do you feel is the most important parenting slash family core values to push?

Here's some tactics and strategies to having an amazing family. One, recognize and accept both you and your spouse that you're different, you're wired different, you're completely different gender, like you're designed to do different things. Don't expect that the husband is going to walk in and say the perfect thing. Don't expect that the wife is going to come in and say the perfect thing. It's not happening. You don't believe me? Watch movies. Every movie you're sitting there and you're like, "Yeah, I knew! He's doing the same!" Of course, because we're the same as men and they're the same as women. And so accept that both sides— make sure you look each other in the eyes and accept that. Number 2, practice hard because anything worth doing— a marriage, having children, running 100 miles, building a business— Anything worth doing is going to be hard. You're going to go into the valley of death. Often you're going to want to quit, but if you practice hard, you're more likely to get through it. Number 3, I would say you should have a mission statement. You and your family should just sit down, lay out what your true north is, what's, what's our goal here as a family, and then every decision you're about to make reflect back on that goal and think, wait a minute, our goal is to be the family that makes it 50 years ahead. Okay, then why are you out with your buddies drinking on a Friday night flirting with that girl? That doesn't fit the mission, right? So, so make sure you lay out a clear mission that the entire family is bought into. Do it with them. Um, and if you have children, um, you're not You're not supposed to focus on them being your best friend. Your job is to make sure they're ready for tomorrow, that they're going to be able to stand without you. You're raising adults. And so almost every choice, when given the choice between do I, do I make them go the hard way or the easy way, should be the hard way. In that neighborhood I grew up in, The organized crime bosses that gave their kids everything because when they grew up they had nothing and they wanted to overshow— shower those kids turned out to be useless. And I don't only see it there, I see it all over the place. All kinds of wealthy families send me their kids to try to fix them at 21 years old. The families that made their kids work, that made their kids work for, you know, to get a nice car and do all the tough stuff, those kids turned out to be self-sufficient and good kids. So get your mission statement right, recognize your differences, and do hard stuff, do hard stuff. And model it, by the way. Don't ask your family to do the hard stuff and then you're not doing it. You're sitting eating popcorn on the couch. Like, model the behavior you want.

Yeah, I saw that with one of my families. We were trying to figure out, like, their kids were, you know, middle school, and they're like, well, I don't know if I've, like, the fear of a parent is never doing enough to get them to be successful. And it was pretty much spot on with what you just said of like, well, let's reverse engineer it. If you were to create a Boy Scout/Girl Scout merit badge book for your own family, by the time they're 18, I want them to be proficient in these skills, in these categories that I know that they'll be self-sufficient enough. What would that be? And they were just like dumbfounded. Like that, it's that simple of reverse engineer. Do you want them to know how to change gas and do an oil change and whatever it is? Like, what are all the different categories that would make you feel confident as a parent? Because I can see this all the time, that people never feel like there's enough. And I know you don't have kids yet out of the house, but are there things that you— based on what you're doing, do you feel like you have more confidence that when they're 18 and right, or ready to move out of the house, that they will have everything? Versus there's still that emotional father part of you that like, even that might not be enough.

Listen, anybody listening to me right now, is saying, "Oh, this guy, he's too tough on his kids," or whatever. I just want you to know that I'm not tough enough. That I am just like every other dad and every other mom, and I could be doing a lot more. They should know how to pump their own gas. They should know how to change a carburetor. They should know how to— but I've been so focused on some other things that make me feel good and get me to spend more time with my kids that even I'm failing at it. So if I'm failing at it, I can't even imagine everybody else that's trying to make their kid their best friend. Um, I could definitely do more. I mean, I laughed at my wife years ago. I said, we got to move to New Delhi, India. We gotta, we gotta live in a slum. We gotta make them tougher.

And then, and what, and then what?

All right.

And then, and I mean, what's— because right now I'm in South Florida and I see this, and I went from public school to private school, and I went into that environment where I was around the kids who had while I was a kid who hadn't. And, and that allowed me to like build up some resilience, have to do it on my own, learn how to do things the hard way versus kids who were just handing things. And I think that in the, you know, there was some resentments for sure along the way of that. But now looking back, that I can say that I built something on my own. But wait, what's the next thing? Like, especially for like when you're now doing a lot, you know, the book that just came out, like what is the big most consistent thing you're seeing with parenting with children that are coming up as the biggest struggle?

I mean, think about it this way. You're listening, you're a parent, or you hope someday to be a parent. Um, Are you teaching your kids to go up, over, and through obstacles that they will face in life, or are you moving the obstacles out of the way so that they have no chance of navigating them on their own? That's it. And I mean, that's the problem today. Parents are— we're moving obstacles out of the way. We're not, we're not having them fully functioning on their own, like When I meet all these successful people, I dive into their childhood and invariably what you hear is their parents pushed them out of the house. Richard Branson rode 100 miles at a very young age to get home. He became a very adventurous person. I can give you story after story after story where these young kids had to roll up their sleeves, boys and girls, and F-F-I-O on their own And the problem we're having today is, oh, we can't do that, it's going to upset them. That'll upset little Johnny. And that's like, well, your choice. They could be upset now or they could be a failure later.

Yeah. And is that part of the learned helplessness that you—

Yeah, we're learning helplessness. That's what's happening. We're all learning helplessness. We don't— we're not learning how to survive and thrive, getting softer. And more mushy and disgusting, actually. Listen, you don't believe me, look at the military. Look at what a hard time and how much money they spend, they are having trying to recruit any kids. And the kids they think they got can't even pass the tests.

Really?

Yeah. So it's a disaster. They're getting fatter. I don't care if that's politically incorrect. Definitely less healthy to be heavy. They're getting fatter, they're getting thicker, and definitely more delicate. So I'm a politically incorrect machine.

Yeah, well, I realized that because my grandfather served in World War II, and I remember whenever I go to the cemetery outside of Scranton, Pennsylvania to visit the family, I see how many flags are are on the gravestones in that cemetery. And then going to any local Miami, South Florida cemetery and how very rare there are. And again, like picking aside all the crazy, crazy polarization in politics, right? Do you think like the society at that time where there was more of a larger pride of a bigger picture of buying into something, team, community, not necessarily like this crazy nationalism that could be on one side or the other, but what do you think like really has shifted the most about that mindset? Like you're saying, like people are getting that much softer, even people who are signing up for the military aren't even ready for this, where that was kind of the standard in the '30s and '40s and '50s.

Think about Lewis and Clark. Lewis and Clark had a pretty tough life. They weren't even in the military, right? Sacagawea was carrying a 2-year-old during that entire expedition. Shackleton was stuck in the ice for 2 years with his boat and his men. He didn't lose one man. Are we different today? Are we less capable? Come on, you know the answer to that. We might not want to look in the mirror and admit it, but what's that show? There's that movie, WALL-E. Watch WALL-E because it's playing out.

Interesting. Yeah, and I guess the best way, right, is just like you said, going back to the simplicity of things. Eat more salad, drink more water, get more sleep, spend more time, do the priorities and focusing on everything. So, Les, I know our time is limited, and I guess, you know, of the billion and one things that you talk about the most, and I know you kind of, right, I've, like I said, I've seen you from episode to episode, you know, if they can take away one thing, like that, I call it my, like, standing on one foot. If you can teach anybody anything on one foot that, like, forget everything else you've ever said, what would you want them to take away the most?

I guess if I had a choice, I could only choose one thing between salad, water, and sweating before breakfast.

I can only pick one of them above everything else besides joining a Spartan race and going to a gym. Just one of those three things?

Yeah, it would, it would be those three. And, and, um, and I guess it would be sweat before breakfast because, um, I had a 690-pound guy come to the farm, our farm in Vermont. I helped him lose a bunch of weight. He got down to 270 pounds. 5 pounds, and we did it on raw fruits and vegetables and walking every day. So, um, my message would be raw fruits and vegetables and walk every day.

Um, awesome.

You'll be happier, you'll be healthier, you'll be able to keep your relationships. Um, you'll do better at your job. Everything will be better.

Absolutely love it. So I'm going to take on— Joe, we're going to take on your challenge. So if you guys want to sign up, anybody listening to this wants to sign up for the Spartan Race, I'm committing to doing the Jacksonville one if you want to join me for that, please reach out to me directly. If you want to do another one that's more local to you, I'm willing to drive the 5 to 6 hours to Jacksonville for the weekend and doing it. Please find one near you. Please, please, please. If you're a family and a parent, please check out the latest book that Joe just wrote, 10 Rules for Resilience: Mental Toughness for Families. And he's got the two other books, Spartan Up and, and definitely check out Spartan Fit and check out his podcast, YouTube channels. And again, Joe, I really do want to thank you for the time. I know it's been— it's a crazy day and a crazy time. So thank you again for, for sharing with us.

Take care.

Thanks.