You Winning Life Podcast Ep.194 Adrian Koehler Fatherhood, Failure and Radical Honesty

As you heard, we're hanging out with Adrian today, and we're going to do a little bit of a reverse engineer in today's conversation. And, um, you know, as you know, we're getting closer to episode 200, and Adrian and I were pre-gaming, and you always hear me how sometimes we should record the pre-game, and there's always something good coming out of that. But Adrian and I were talking about about now at this point of getting close to 200, how I'm being even more selective, how many people are reaching out to be on the show and how many people I'm not getting back to because I want this to be a perfect fit for everybody who is listening. So first of all, Adrian, thank you so much because I know, I think a while ago this was on our calendars and one of us had to cancel and one of us had to reschedule. And so we're finally making it happen. So I really want to thank you for hanging out with us.

Very happy to be here.

Yeah. So, so there's a ton of cool stuff that are going on. You got some podcasts, you got some business coaching, you got some, all these really wonderful things that are happening in your world. Let's start off with just what's happening right now. What are you doing right now? What are you working on that's coming in? And then let's reverse engineer that into the next stage, which is the question that I'll have after that.

Well, the most important thing I'm doing right now is raising two children. I got an 11-year-old boy named Scout. I'm coaching his baseball team. We're 6-1. You guys didn't ask, but we're 6-1.

Nice.

And, you know, we didn't lose the one game. They beat us, so good for them. Couple clutch hits. Good for those guys. But anyway, but coaching Scout's team, being involved in as much as possible in school. I'm taking Friday off to be at the school for their Olympics they've got. And supporting my daughter. She finally found the activity she loves, which is just like circus, like Cirque du Soleil stuff. I put her in every ball sport possible. None of it worked. But this she loves. So, she just had her first performance last weekend. So, that's the most important thing I'm doing because that's the future. And I take fathering really seriously and I love it, love it, partially because I'm a human development person and I honor the role of a father in a kid's life. I mean, the role of a mother is pretty natural and it's like baked in in some ways and there's space for it. And, but the role of fathering has been, I think, a pretty big roller coaster over the last few centuries. But what that means, there's lots of ways in which it doesn't work, and we have all generational pain because of that. And I'm standing in the gap trying to— not trying, I'm really committed to figuring it out. Like I tell my kids all the time, I'm committed to being the best dad on the planet. And you know what? I'm not the best dad on the planet. I know that. But we're going to be in a conversation about how I can be. For you, Scout, and for you, two very different answers, right? Each kid needs something else. So obviously, I could talk about this for 7 hours. But anyway, that's the most important thing I'm doing now is learning how to be an effective dad. And I mess it up all the time. And, um, but here I am, keep getting up and going again, getting up and going again. And, uh, so that's the most important thing. I do get to work with phenomenal human beings, both on my team, um, all of which have changed my life deeply, um, and they'd probably say the same about me. And they're world-class at what they do. And I'm giving myself to being the same. And then we get to work with phenomenal human beings that are mostly founders of companies, which I have a deep love for people that have decided to lead. And some of them might not even say it that way. I wouldn't even say it that way. I was like just a leader when I just showed up in the world. I don't know if it was that natural. I know it was a choice because I just felt better as a leader than as a follower. Probably just internal angst. It's like, "What are we doing here? Oh, no, it's up for grabs? Oh, I'll choose. I'll go. I'll do that." And, leadership was always a place of becoming for me and a place of constant feedback for me. And so, I always feel the conversations that are leaders in that they're not having with other people just because I've been in it for a long time and no conversation is too dangerous for me. So, it's like the biggest honor of my life is to go have a conversation with someone they're dying to have but scared to death to have. You know, I, I say it for myself is I always— I mean, like gravity, I always need more help than I want. Always. Yeah, that ratio is always clear, and it's always more positive on the need side. And just because I'm a Type A guy, driven guy, um, competitive guy, I think I'll get an extra star if I do it by myself.

Yeah, yeah. Do you find that more as a masculine role that, that in the business world, especially?

I think so, unless, unless there's like a real Type A woman that's there to like have the chip on her shoulder and she's there to like prove it or like do it for, you know, the female gender or something. And she might really even be more committed to doing it because in her view and probably in her history, definitely in the meta-narrative, women are trying to overcome. So she won't take more help because help would mean she's feminine or something like that. So, but guys in general I mean, I think human beings in general, I mean, we talk about it, the 4 survival needs: looking good, feeling good, being right, being in control. Those are happening nonstop. We don't get a vote on that. You do get to decide the volume of them in your head, but they're always playing. That music is always playing in the elevator. Looking good, feeling good, being right, being in control. The 4 survival needs, we call them ego needs if you want to call them that. But, you know, so Anyway, I get to come alongside of founders of companies. They're all brilliant. They're all driven. They're all adventurous. They're all activity, you know, they're all very active. And most of them have a lot of relational collateral damage in their lives because for lots of reasons, but you know, they're driving, they're going, and people tend to treat other people the way they like to be treated. And they've usually treated themselves like tools their whole lives to get somewhere. And so when they get human beings around them, they're just the next tool to use. And people don't like being treated that way, let alone if you're going to build a culture, there's going to be conflict. And they, you know, we're not trained on how to deal with people, like deal with conflict. So anyway, that's a lot of my work is helping leaders get real about what's actually happening. And, you know, you know, we call it hugging the cactus. It's going to hurt when you get honest. It's going to be real bad. It's worse than you think. It is worse than you think, and that's okay. But if you don't put your arms around that, you can't get anywhere new. You can like have activity that looks new, but you, you just got more, you know, shit that you're carrying around, right? So anyway, helping them resolve things, and those usually end up looking like miracles to them. Because, oh my gosh, I couldn't believe this one conversation shifted 2 years of angst. That's crazy. I could tell lots of stories that are flying through my head right now of recent offsites I've done with executive teams. So anyway, that's what I love doing. I've always been weird and odd. And in my family, I was way too serious for them and way too intense. And they called me "Ade" growing up. Ade, everything's not that philosophical. Like, unless it is, how do you know? Everything's not that complicated. Well, how do you know? I see 25 layers to this. How do you build a friend?

Everything's not a therapy conversation.

Well, yeah, Dad, it is.

Right. But it is.

Yeah, Dad, how do you build a friend? That's a lot. How many layers are there to that question? What does it mean to be a friend anyway? So I've always been that way, which made me a lot to myself, by the way, and a lot to a lot of other people. And now I get to be this and make good money doing it. And I am not— I mean, I'll shut up so you can ask the next question.

But the—

there was a— you're probably Paul Simon fan.

I am.

You are?

Yeah.

One of my favorite Paul Simon songs. What's your favorite Paul Simon song, by the way?

Oh, jeez. I mean, do you want with Simon and Garfunkel or do you want Paul Simon? Like, you know, the whole, you know, Diamonds on the Soles of His Shoes. You want— I mean, that's a tough one. I mean, like, you know, the Concert in Central Park is one of my favorite albums ever. So That's, that's, that's, that's like asking you, like, you know, of your favorite artists that you've ever seen, that if they ever got back together, how much money would— that's funny enough that you asked me about Paul Simon. They're the only band that have ever got back together again would have zero— like, my budget would not be how much— would not be— there would be no budget to go see them, to go see Simon and Garfunkel. That's the only people. Yeah.

Now you have to answer the question.

Emotionally, Sound of Silence.

Uh-huh.

Emotionally, not because it's so cliché, but because it's something that I have childhood memories around. And it's also probably the first song I played on the guitar. Oh, wow.

Have you listened to the Disturbed version of that?

I have. Oof.

We play it. We do a 4-day leadership training. And on the 3rd day, when shit's getting deep, We play that and it just, it stuns the room.

Yeah, David Draiman is a powerhouse of a human being.

Oh my gosh.

So, yeah.

So, that's great. I just played Call Me Al for my kids for the first time. The video, the music video.

Yeah.

And I was singing, same night I was singing 50 Ways to Leave a Lover.

These are classics. Yeah, these are much later. Yeah, much later.

There are, but I bring it up because when I was going through a big transition in my life, um, which was leaving, leaving a marriage, getting my life together in many ways, um, having tons of friends exit. And I had earned a lot of that because I've been living this double life thing, which if you want to get into, we can. Um, and anyway, it was just a huge transition in my life. I was essentially, I would call it reconstituting myself now. There was this Paul Simon song ministered to me and healed me. I think that's what that word means. But, uh, Still Crazy After All These Years, classic song. I'd listened to it a million times. Um, if folks haven't listened to that, if anybody's like under the age of 35 and I'm not listening to that song, yeah, listen to that song. It is a whole progression. I mean, the saxophone in the middle tells you something new's coming. Anyway, there's a line after that that simply goes, "I would not be convicted by a jury of my peers, still crazy after all," you know. And I thought, "Oh, I need new peers." I am convicted by these folks because, you know, I raised my hand and said, "Hey, I need help. I've messed things up, blah, blah, blah." And they said, "F you. You hurt our feelings. Can't trust you. Goodbye." Cool. That's human. Love you. Yet I But the folks that stuck through it are folks that have owned any kind of stuff in their life and have suffered in life. And those guys came close. And I thought, oh, these are my people, the folks that are willing to get out of the automatic life's great, no problems, I'm good. You know, no, no, I like being with the folks that are like, oh, today is shitty. I am fucking struggling. I don't know what's going on in life. I'm successful and blah, blah, blah, but man, I'm lost. I like those folks. I like gritty folks. So, that's— now, I get to do that. I get to have the real deal conversation. Like, there's no deep end too deep for me. There's no conversation too tough. There's nothing. Like, let's rock and roll. That's how life becomes vital for me.

Yeah. There's some wording that you use in describing something. So, you start off with, like, at first, I'm trying to be a great dad. And then, you said, no, no, no, I'm committed to being a great dad. So, one of things that I love doing with my, with my clients is even forget the word, the thing that they're trying to describe, but it's the words that they're using to describe that thing is equally as important. Right. And I know like you caught yourself in that. I'm not trying to, I'm committed to.

Yes.

Unpackage that from your perspective about that nuance of trying versus committed and how that applies to what you're doing in your professional world?

Well, who was it? You'll probably know the answer to this. There was some author, philosopher that said, "Words become worlds." Do you know who said that?

No, "Thoughts are things" was one of them.

Yeah, words become worlds. Because my first thought is, oh, there's a universe difference between if I'm trying to do something or if I'm committed to doing something. Why? Because the language reveals the relationship. And I think all of life— I'll say things like kind of superlative like that. You don't have to believe them, and I don't even necessarily believe them that way, but it's good to at least try it on that way, that all of life is a relationship, period. Like, we're on this podcast. We're not on the same podcast. You're on your version in your head. I'm on my version in my head. Is this good? Is this bad? Are we like— do you trust me? Do I not? All that is like choices I'm consciously or unconsciously making, period. It's not like there's a podcast happening. There's Jason's version and Adrian's version, and we both call them the podcast. So, that's frightening to people because we'd prefer things to be static because if it's dynamic and if I get to always choose what I'm making up, then I'm on the hook for what it is to me. And, what it is to me is what I'll be responding to. We've got 3 kind of major pillars. I'll get This will hook back into trying versus committing. First thing is people react to the world according to the way the world occurs to them. Number one. So, perception is reality and I'm perceiving. I'm the perceiver, right? So, and I'm going to react to what I say this thing is. Number one. Number two is the world happens or occurs for people in language, right? Which is your point. There's a big difference between trying and committed to. Because it reveals where I'm coming from and I'll get to that in a second. But, the third one is where all the money is, is future-based language creates present state. And, these are really illuminated in a phenomenal book, a little bit of a boring business book called "Three Laws of Performance." If people haven't read that, it's kind of worth listening to. But, these principles we coach through all the time. So now, trying versus committed to. Trying is, I think, the most popular way of justifying not getting something done. Because I get to look good. Listen, I tried. I was doing this thing and I tried to do it. It didn't work out. Right? So, I give myself credit for effort.

I showed up.

I showed up. Yeah, I showed up.

Participation trophy.

That's right. Listen, I tried, but circumstances, the other person, the my history, the fill-in-the-blank, whatever it is.

The market, the terrorists, whatever.

Exactly. So, it's just saying, "Hey, the responsibility for the outcome is out there in the universe somewhere and I'm going to—" It usually presents as what I call gesture. So, even in a training sometimes when somebody's— so, back to we do this 4-day thing called the Revenant Process that your folks would probably really dig checking out. But if somebody's really into the word trying, I'll have them get up and I'll usually have a marker in my hand. I'll say, "Hey, go ahead and try to take this out of my hand." hand. And they'll grab it and they'll pull it out. I'm like, no, no, no, you took it out of my hand. No, try to take it out of my hand. And then they'll be confused, like they don't get it. I'm like, no. So, act like you're going to take it. And so, make them be all dramatic and it's very funny. But that's the thing. It's like looking like I'm doing the thing, that's trying. Yeah. So, committed to is, oh, I'm going to give everything I got and I'm going to be willing to transform over and over and over again and do whatever it takes. In order to generate, and if I'm doing it with another person, to co-generate this outcome. And now that's a very complicated endeavor. So for example, I'm committed to having a deep friendship with my kids. Deep. Like, not like I'm their buddy, but I'm like the— my son said it to me the other day because we were— he was having some conflict and he— with his— anyway, he was just having some conflict. I'll leave out some details. He was having some conflict And I just said, "Hey, why does that issue never happen with me?" And he said, "You've got standards." Mm. I thought that was interesting. And I only say that because like I am— I know I'm programming him to, you know, I say it this way, we're always training people how to be with us, period. We're always training people how to be with us. So, I'm committed to having a deep friendship with my kids. I can't guarantee that because I don't know if they want that. You know, I partially have that because I've always wanted that with my dad, and that's not going to happen in the way that I would prefer it just because he doesn't want— he's not that kind of guy and doesn't talk about that kind of stuff and doesn't think the way I think. And so he's not that, you know, he can't meet me. He's not interested. And I don't say that as a dig. He's just not that guy that wants to go talk about his wheelhouse stuff. Yeah, he just doesn't roll that way. And they might not. But all that to say is like, I'm committed to to having the— the better way of saying it, I'm committed to having the deepest relationship my kids are willing to have with me. So that means I've got to be really honest. That means I've got to be really responsible and really accountable and listen to them, um, and also give them a wall to lean on. And also, when they blow it, be straight up with them and be really gracious with them so they feel like being with me is both safe and progressive simultaneously. So when I say committed, I say that I'll do whatever it takes and I'll reinvent myself 1,000 times to be the person that they can connect with without betraying myself and my own values and commitments. I'm not going to go be the one they need me to be and acquiesce to them because that's not a gift to them either. Yeah. So I hope that makes sense.

Yeah, it makes sense. It's a long answer, but yeah. No, it's a perfect answer because some of the notes that I took while you were talking was the trying versus committed. And then this idea of deciding to lead, right? You're working with people that are deciding to leave. And a lot of times, you know, this is that space that we're talking about, pre— the pre-conversation was, you know, like, the people that I work with, like, that don't even realize what's out there. And it's that reverse engineer conversation of, like, well, if you were to make your own job description for the company that you're in, if you're— let's say you're an intrapreneur, right? You're working for a company, you're helping them grow. And the more you help them to grow, hopefully the more you know, benefit there is to you, which is a whole other conversation if the businesses don't incentivize that. But let's just say you are, right? How do you decide to lead in that scenario where you notice that there are things that need to happen? You notice that there are spaces that can be filled in and you have an expertise in that area. Do you have the audacity to create a job description to present that to the powers that be above you and say, listen, here's where I know I can be at a next stage helpful? Yes. Versus people who are just going along a path of, well, here's the job description. I had this job last time. This is a step up, so I have to prove myself at this step. And then when I do that for a couple of years, then I can apply to this thing. Like, it's still like playing within— like, it's like when Harlem Globetrotters or the Savannah Bananas decided to change basketball and baseball. Mm-hmm. Right. It's still the same sport, but they're changing all about it. And of course, right. Harlem Globetrotters sell out a stadium. Savannah Bananas just sold out, what is it, Auburns or one of those big 70,000 stadiums, 70,000-person stadiums for a baseball game. Not happening anywhere else in the world. Yeah, but they're still playing within the confines of this is baseball, it's just right now. Yes. Where do you see that people are getting stuck from that? Like, well, I want to do this, or they're even, you know, like you're saying, like these big CEOs or people who decide to start a company, but they're still playing within a script. They're still playing within this normalized, here's how all these other companies do it. I just have to follow that path, but in my company and we'll be okay. Versus how do I completely reform or transform what this even is to even think about this in that path?

Yeah, I could answer that question, which is like more folks I work with. My first, my first thought is to answer it with more of like who your listeners are, like what you described, folks that are working in businesses. Just because I've been doing this almost 15 years, I think. Time's weird, but I think that's about right. And I first started coaching mostly middle manager folks because they're like my age at the time. I'm almost 45 now, so I was like early 30s. And the confession is I've never had a corporate job. Never. Why? I'd get fired, probably, because I'm not good inside systems that I think aren't working very well and there's things we don't want to talk about. It's like, "No, thanks." So, principally, where do people get stuck? Well, first off, they don't get stuck. I don't believe that. I mean, that's a natural vernacular. And I actually ran a training because I hooked into it. I used it as marketing. I said, "Getting unstuck," because people say, "I'm stuck," right? So, first off, you're not stuck. You've made choices. To justify settling for mediocre results and you're just busy complaining about it? I would say so. That's pretty tough language, but just try it on for a second. Have I made choices to justify mediocre results and I'm busy complaining about it? And if you like, ask yourself that question honestly and then look around. Ask your spouse, hey, do I— how often do I complain about work? Just ask that question. And then look at their face and guarantee you they'll be smiling. Or if you look back at the last week and who have I been complaining about, what have I been complaining about, there'll be things that pop up. Now complaining, I don't think is a problem. I don't think it's a sin. I think it is an indication of vision that's not yet— it's latent vision, right? Any of my complaints are something I care about that I'm not willing to give myself to. Yeah, but I'll complain to act like I care about it instead of being like I care about it because if I actually cared about it, I'd do something else than complain about it. So, alright. Now, for folks that might call themselves stuck, big distinction in my work is, am I playing not to lose or am I playing to win? So, if I'm stuck, I would assert you're probably playing not to lose. I was loving your description, by the way. So, like slowly, methodically doing this kind of, "I'm on this ladder and let me color within the lines and then maybe next year." And they see this opportunity, but they're not willing to write their own job description and the audacity to go point out something that either their bosses haven't noticed or are intentionally not noticing, don't want to deal with. Two very different conversations to have. So if they're not noticing it, that's— you need to like delicately point these things out, but also speak their interests, not your desires. So your boss probably is committed to two things. One is has to get some kind of results. Secondly, they probably have been there longer than you and they want to not get fired. Most people live in corporate America to not lose the kingdom they've built. So, if that's true, you have to, you know, look at it from that, not judging that even if it's an ego play, if Tom's an egomaniac, but you need to work with Tom, then you need to work with Tom's egomania, not to justify it, but that's the only way to work with Tom is to help him see it and help him even get credit for it. That's also okay! Or— so, tons of ideas here! So, there's that or if there's things they don't want to talk about, that's the tougher decision for folks because we'll choose security naturally as human beings. We'll choose security over adventure.

Just, I mean, naturally!

Because you know, being safe and being in control especially if you have a family, especially if you have kids, most folks have bought into, you know what, like, it's just the way life is, man. That's just part of, part of having a job. How many times have you heard that? Part of having a job, part of working with people, you know, growing up, that's just getting older. That's it, man. Listen, it's the resigning yourself paradigm, right?

This is it. At this stage of my life, with this circumstance, this is what just— that, that's just to be expected. That's right.

Just, just take this dose of indifference, will you? Yeah, you know, right. And, and that's— there's, there is a, there is a spiritual emotional, psychological effect of that on a person, just deciding, "You know what? I am not going to get what I really want." And that's a legacy too. So, for folks that feel stuck, just think about, "What am I interested in and what am I actually willing to give myself to?" It might mean I might need to go change jobs. In most conversations I was in with folks, it's like, "Why don't you go find a leadership team that's worth having you around?" You know, why have you settled working with these schmucks? They obviously don't see you. They don't value you. And that's if you've had all the conversations and if you've had them in the right way and if you've, you know, walked it all the way out. Most folks don't take a stand for anything and they want other people to choose them, but they don't pick themselves first, right? Which is your point. I see this, hey, if I'm going to be here for the next 5 years, I want to give myself to a big challenge with big results for the company that would really serve me and my family the most. Can we do that? Or can I, can I create big results for the company? Would you like— oh, you would. Yeah. And I want a big challenge, like, almost like help this thing redevelop over time. And I just really need satisfaction. Most folks underrepresent their personal vision and they don't articulate it. This is the boss's job, is to help people have— there's a corporate vision and personal vision, and if those aren't aligned, they won't stay. No. Or if they do stay, they're just going to complain all the time and create more chaos.

And I'm wondering, like, with that, like, if, you know, let's say you know, you and I are partnering on this idea. And we're going around to businesses. And I see this all the time, right, where you have the org chart, right? The proverbial org chart. And these are relatively static changes here and there. The titles might be different here and there. But for all intents and purposes, there are particular roles at particular levels of a business. Yep. But the truly successful that are— I mean, listen, you can have the wash and repeat and you're going to still have layers of unhappiness and you may have a good culture, you know, and that whole idea of like just because you put an espresso machine in your, you know, and a ping pong table, it doesn't mean you're creating good culture for your people. But what would it be like if these companies started asking, what is your wheelhouse? What is your expertise? What are you passionate about? What can you bring? Right? Here's what you know about the company. Here's what you've seen has been happening in the company. "Here's what's working well. Here's what you can see what needs improvement on." Create a job description around that and revamp an entire company around people who are doing that. I'm really curious. I mean, this is obviously a massive social experiment. Do you know of any companies, or are you working with any teams that are doing just that versus, like, let's get rid of the proverbial— yes, we still need to have hierarchies and stuff like that. But if we were to revamp the whole thing instead of you know, we're going to put you in this position and then you can grow into that position and you have to work with that person versus here's what I know, what I can really add versus trying to stay into your box of what you think I can add.

I mean, I don't think I've heard it quite that way just because, I mean, I think the— I'm going to— let's see, let me add to that. So I think that's a great— it's a great context for folks. Like, if I'm running a company, I want people to think about What's your biggest gift? And can you prove it? And can it generate results versus just be kind of a millennial, I deserve to do whatever I feel like doing, and it's what I call passion, which is not the true definition of passion. But it's like, I'm not gonna— this, this job isn't a place to go entertain yourself. It is a place to express yourself. But if you're working here and I'm paying you, you got to like generate results towards what I'm paying you to do. So, it's like this kind of both/and thing. I don't know any companies that just say, "Hey, what's your big—" I mean, I used to work at a—

I mean, it has to be within alignment, obviously, of the brand and the mission and the revenue-generating activities.

Well, the thing that also just comes to mind, I work with a beauty brand. I coach the head of brand at this place called The Ordinary, which just got sold to Estée Lauder out of Toronto. And she's an ex-Nike gal and I coached all these Nike people. So, all my clients have all just come via relationships. And anyway, she's like, like most corporations, this corporation sent out an anonymous survey, an annual anonymous survey about— and I'm just like not a fan of anonymous surveys, period, for 25 reasons, which I won't get into for the sake of time. But then I talked to my client, whose name is Amy, and she's phenomenal. And I said, why don't you run a non-anonymous survey, like on your own, just run your own. In your own division, which she did. And about, I don't know, 25% of her people answered. And then she got to have 25 conversations with people around this, essentially. What am I not seeing? What needs to happen here? What are you guys talking about that I'm not hearing about? And all this, which is like tilling the soil for where the resource is, because culture is the network of conversations among people, meaning what are the permissions? What do we talk about? What do we not talk about? What does it mean? What does it mean to be a team? All those, that's what culture is. That's the That's the context behind it. So, I think it'd be really helpful if to, as a leader, be in a conversation that's provocative with your people because when it comes to work, especially coming out of baby boomer, maybe if they're 30s, maybe that early Gen X, they just go to their job, right? This is not where I am. This is what I'm doing so that I can go back to life. And, that's where we get work-life balance. Thinking, which I'm not a fan of, because it's like, "Oh, this is life and then there's work." And I just go be this version of myself that's not very happy and I'm not on my best behavior and I don't think that my work life has anything to do with my integrity or not or my level of honesty and any of that. This is work, Adrian. And then there's real Adrian over here. That type of thinking generates a ton of despair. But if you see your work as a place to make your best contribution, both to society— not that it has to be this way, but both to society and to your own personal development, then you're going to get a lot more out of it and you're going to be provocative and you're going to offend a lot of people because a person alive offends the zombies, period, right? You're gonna like— you're gonna talk about in the meeting what everybody else has just decided we're not going to talk about. You're going to be the one saying, "Hey, this thing happened last week and I don't see it on the agenda. Can we please talk about this?" Like that that will offend the folks that have just decided to be a zombie at work.

Yeah, we're done with it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. What's interesting was you're talking about this. I'm also picturing the same conversation needing to happen in relationships of all factors, of all flavors, right? What you just described is equally applicable to a couple. Oh yeah. What are the conversations that we need to be happening? What are the conversations we need to be having that we're not having? What's the things I need to be looking at that I'm not looking at? Because right, if we're in a relationship, right, whether it's a professional relationship or a romantic relationship, We don't realize, and I see this all the time with my couples, is if your spouse is giving you crap about a particular thing for a particular period of time, even though it might be their thing to work on about why it's bothering them, but what happens if there's also a little bit of truth in it? Why can't it be both? Why can't it be their, their problem, right? Let them go work on it. Let them figure out why that's triggering them specifically. But also, why can't there be truth in it? And what is it that you have to look at that you're not looking at? And I see that applies in multiple, in multiple frameworks. And this is why, as a therapist who loves working in this— I, I say I don't work with entrepreneurs, I work with those who are entrepreneurial in their mindset. Yep. Because you don't have to be an entrepreneur to have that. Yep. Where this whole process of the more accountability you take, the more keyed into your core values and making decisions on your core values will never be the wrong— right? It won't be like, oh, what job do I take? It's Well, which ones align with your core values, then no job will ever be the wrong one as long as you're sticking to your core values. That's right. Right. And that idea of those that become your standards, those that become your boundaries. So, the amount of chaos will be radically diminished through that process.

Yeah. I definitely, when I've got my work hat on, but I think really across the board, I, I often say, which people don't know how to deal with it, I say I'm really unoffendable. That doesn't mean that I don't get offended at times. It doesn't mean I don't get angry or I think people are stupid. Like, that happens. But, but I'm just unwilling to stay offended by anybody. So they could, especially when I'm working with folks, like, they could say anything. It's cool. I'm just really curious, what do you mean by that and where do you see that? So I'm thinking about relationships. So like, if maybe to your point, if your spouse has got some kind of chronic complaint. Yeah, that's theirs to work through. But like, tell me how I'm— let's assume, because here's my assertion, is that this works in relationships and work. Here's how I talk about it in the workplace. It's like, if any meeting sucks, it's— and you're there, it's your fault. Yeah, I don't usually say the word fault, but it's like, it's because people— people love to say it's, it's his meeting. I don't know, I don't know why we're doing this, but it's his meeting. I'm like, well, you're there.— So, and so every— we always say the system always generates the results the system was created to— was set up to create, right? So, if I'm in a relationship and my spouse has a chronic complaint and I'm unwilling to at least even examine how I'm contributing to it, I mean, if it's a chronic complaint, I guarantee there is contribution. It might not be in this moment. You might have to go back in time. You know, we don't have much time left. I used to work in prison with murderers. We do these 3-day leadership trainings with lifers, and we ran this— the crux of the training was called Victim Responsible. So we talked about what does it mean to play the victim, what does it mean to be responsible, and we'd have them sit down like, so tell your life story, you got 2 and a half minutes, tell your life story and just what happened, why did you come to prison? So they do it that way and they go, Partner A, partner B, blah, blah, blah. And then, we say, "Okay. Here's what it means to play the victim. Now, partner A, go again. Your job is to convince partner B that you're the victim in the story." Obviously, really loud, wonderful stories, juicy. We're all good at this. But then, I said, "Hey, pay attention to your— what was your experience as you were telling the story?" They were angry. They were resentful. They were despairing. They were all that stuff. And then, we said, "Okay, good. Now, what's it mean to be responsible?" Now, you have to tell the exact same story, but your job is now convince the person that you're responsible. You know what they had to do? They got to go back in time because when I was 16, I could have stayed with my grandmother, but instead, I stayed at Pookie's house. Right. And I could have—

It's always Pookie. It's always Pookie.

I know. I could have got the job at the corner store, but instead, I started slinging drugs. I could have— I knew going— Anyway, to look at, to be curious about what responsibility you have, you just have to go back in time because when something's a shit buffet, it's started as a shit hors d'oeuvre. You just didn't eat it then, and then you send it back to the kitchen, becomes a shit sandwich, and then a two-course, five-course, then it's a shit buffet. And people complain about it, but you don't realize I didn't eat it back then and I saw it. And that's part of being responsible. So yes, I'm—

yeah, go on. No, yes, I'm just wondering, like, over the last year I've been playing with this idea of the hills, uh, that we're willing to die on. And everybody has those, but I don't know if anybody has ever sat down— if a lot of people have sat down and saying What are the legitimate hills I'm willing to die on? But how can I remove those to make those the least amount possible?

Okay. Give an example. Politics.

Right. Well, the world is so fractured right now. You know, I'm not going to be friends with such and such because they automatically were assuming if they're different, then they must have these beliefs. And therefore that's contradictory to me versus so therefore I'm not going to be friends with them. I'm not going to talk to them. I'm not going to write. I'm going to cancel them, whatever it might be. As opposed to— I'm not willing to die on that hill anymore. I want to get to know them for them and get to know the story. Because at the end of the day, what I'm finding is still 80% of what we're doing in our day-to-day is relatively similar, no matter where you're coming from. Yes, we all want a good life, we all want peace, we all want to put food on the table, we all want— we may be doing that in a different way, but, but I'm wondering, like, even in these business settings where we need to do this by such and such time, and if that doesn't happen, our mission has failed. How did you decide that that should be the mission in the first place? So again, then that makes it its own hill that a lot of times companies die over, right?

Yeah, like an unwillingness in that context, like an unwillingness to befriend what's happening. You know, I, I, I think of it this way. I have so many thoughts about what you're talking about. Even just what flashes, like one of my major One of my biggest mistakes when I was paid to go do a leadership training just happened like 2 weeks ago, and it was because of this, because it was like, we're done with the day, phenomenal day. I'm in Austin with a group of 6 leaders, and there was a guy that was there, and his political views surprised me, number one. And were— he's a smart guy, successful guy. They were super— in my, in my judgment, they're very superficial, like not a lot of I was asking questions and like his answers were like talking points from his very extreme side of the aisle. And I got hooked. I got hooked. I like, I was, I mean, in that I'm kind of paid to be the guy to help deal with stuff, but man, I got fired up and it really bifurcated the room. My behavior bifurcated the room. I just, instead of, you know, saying, hey, you know what? It's apparent this guy doesn't want to have a conversation. He just wants to spout his talking points from his side of the aisle. And I'm sensitive to those. And I, I, it was, it was honestly fueled because I know this guy and I know what he's up to in life and I know his challenges and I know the dogma he sits in is ruining his life. Not the ideas, but his relationship to the ideas, how right he is, is where he's stuck in his career and with his kids. Yeah, and I missed it. All that to say is I got hooked by him. And what else was I going to say? But I just want to confess that I mean, just like I get hooked just like anybody else to that point. But with that, it's like, I think to your second point, current reality is always looking for a spokesperson. So if I'm running a company and it's not working, most of us, a lot of people will like think that sticking with the wrong idea is victory because I look like I'm giving all I've got instead of the, "Hey, am I willing to be wrong?" What I have previously not only thought but convinced if I'm a great leader, I've evangelized and I got everybody and to stand up in front, "Hey, guys. It's not working. Here's how we know it's not working." And I can keep doing this and keep talking you into working harder. And sacrificing more. But I intuitively know this is not going to work, so we're going to need to put— we're going to shift. And I hope this builds trust. It might not build trust because I was really good at convincing you. I mean, great leaders are great manipulators or influencers, you know. So I, I hope this builds trust, and I want to actually clean up this relationship first and then see if we can take, you know, put, put a whole other chapter here. That takes a lot of guts to do because you can blame them, you know, blame the market, blame the government, blame everything just to get yourself off the hook and like have it story that, oh, you know, in different times it would have worked, right?

It happened to us. Yeah. And I'm thinking like two different industries, one like Peloton, right? Like that was the great, you know, pandemic success story, and then the pandemic started ending and it tanked, right? And, and also the cycling industry, which is kind of like a weird niche thing, but I kind of track that of like, you know, they were doing also so well during the pandemic. Everything was like selling and the prices were going up and all the parts and all the accessories And all these companies are now starting to go out of business. Yep. Because that stopped. Yep. And the prices were too high and the interest waned. And but I can see that happening even to mom-and-pop. I can see that happening even in relationships where they're, where they're on a good, you know, slide in there. Oh, the last 3 months were amazing in our marriage. Yeah, great. Now is the perfect time to talk about, from the capitalization of that, Yes. What do we need to be strategically looking at for the next 6 months to a year? What aren't we, right? It's kind of like a SWOT analysis, as cliché as that sounds. And that's why I love taking all these entrepreneurial ideas and applying them to therapy and taking all these therapeutic ideas and applying them to the world of entrepreneurship.

I just heard, I heard Esther Perel, which I'm sure you're familiar with, say a thing where people were like, wondering if she had gotten divorced and gotten married because she just said, I've been married, I've been married 3 times. And she was— but she was describing, she says, oh no, I've been married to the same person, but we've had to get remarried in our own minds 3 times because this version of our relationship worked and then it didn't work. And instead of getting divorced, that's what most people do, is we're different, we were married young, blah blah story. And then, but no, no, we just decided to reinvent ourselves and say this next season of our life is about what? And, both parties obviously have to be willing to do the work and reinvent themselves and see what's wanted and needed and listen to the other person and adapt and get off their own high horse and all their superiority and give themselves to the future that regenerates who they are. But, to your point, it's like if anything, if it's going to be long-lasting period, a company, relationship, you can't be precious about where you were. You have to be committed to where you're going. Yeah. And that's why I'm very— I think we were talking on the— before we got started is like why typical therapists, which you're not, are so Freudian in their view. That's like, oh, I am because— and they look to the past. And so I can't reinvent myself because actually I'd be betraying the story that I've told myself for a long time.

Yeah, be dishonoring. Yeah. And I see this all the time with clients of like 'Cause I do some modality called neuro-emotional technique, which uses muscle testing and Chinese medicine meridian points to find out not where the rational brain is holding the story, but where the somatic physiological story is and how that butts heads. I would say 90% of the time there's some story that someone's carrying about how they have to operate with someone, like a family member. They're like, well, I don't want to be this way, but I'm still carrying that trait that, you know, but it's inter— but isn't that intergenerational themes? Isn't that supposed to happen? I'm like, I mean, I mean, it could, but you're also choosing to show love and honor to your family member by doing something that you don't like, but honoring them and loving them this way has a greater power than you doing something different and finding a healthier way to be. Yeah. And I see that in— I would say we all have that in some way, shape, or form to some way. We have allegiance to some old story, whether we realize it or not. Right. Even the ones that we say we don't like, we will still, we may not do it that way, but we may do it in a different segment of our life. Same theme, just different output and different engagement with it.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's, um, it's, there's so much here. Um, the, the, that, well, we, we call those rackets. Which is the— what is the chronic complaint I've got? So let's just say my, my, my father didn't communicate very much, so therefore I don't communicate. Let's just say I don't— I mean, that's not me because I'm over-communicating with my kids, but the— let's just say because my dad didn't and I saw that modeled at home and the mom wore the pants in the family, therefore I am the doormat and my wife runs that. This is a very common story, and I think a lot of the frustration in in relationships is like, is women having to be the heads of the household, men complaining that their wives are complaining about being that. So anyway, let's just say that that's, you know, that's some kind of chronic complaint, number one. Number two is there's always a system of behavior that, that keeps that complaint alive, right? So I have an idea, if I'm this guy that feels like I'm the doormat to my wife, I have an idea, but I'm not going to say it because she's going to, you know, "not going to listen to me anyway," or "I don't have enough time to actually get that invested the way she wants me to, so I'm not going to step up and do something extra," or if I see a problem, if I see something she's doing with the kids, I'm not going to bring it up because she's going to retaliate, whatever the story is. So, I keep the system behavior going. So, that's number 2. Number 3 is there's always payoffs to the complaint, always. It's an under-the-table negotiation. Why do I— the counterintuitive question is, "Why do I love being the doormat?" I don't love being the doormat. I don't. Okay, good. Well, you've been— how long you've been doing it? 10 years? I say, and reality tells me, you do. So let's just play this game. Let's say there are payoffs. Well, it's safer, no responsibility, it's her fault, I get to actually be superior to her, um, I, you know, I get to complain about it, to be a better person, I get to maybe fool around on the side, I get to drink when I want to drink, I get to talk crap in front of the kids, I get to hang out with my buddies and talk crap, I get to— there's like There's like so much entitlement in there to that complaint. There are payoffs. What are the prices? Oh, low integrity. I'm not that empowered. I am a horrible example to my children. And, I know that I feel guilt. I feel shame all the time. I've got a despairing view of the next 40 years. There's lots of prices we're paying not because of what's happening because of what I've participated in generating what's happening. And, it takes guts to stand up and say, "Hey, here's what I've been doing." And there is a reciprocal relationship. She's also complaining about having to carry the weight of the family if I feel like I'm the doormat and can't say something. So, we talk about it in that way, which people usually hate until they see it and they're like, "Oh, okay." Because I think to your point is responsibility is freedom, period. If I didn't help create or co-create what's here, I can't. Create what's next. So, I always say that if there's not a now, there's not a next. If I don't get to now and how I've created this moment and how things are, if I'm unwilling to look at that, see it, be awareness of it, take responsibility for it, have language for it, don't act all confused, like put language on it and then just stand there without the shame and people hide. I don't think shame is an emotion. I say it's a strategy.— if like there's— get out from behind yourself and how self-important you think you are and get into some kind of whatever. For me, it's a faith conversation just because like I can be reinvented nonstop. For me, that's the biggest faith conversations. Like no matter what happens, I can be, you know, born, quote-unquote, born again. I don't mean that in a religious way. I just mean like nothing— a million deaths is what I want. Keep reinventing, keep reinventing, keep reinventing. If I'm willing to do that, then I'm free. I'm free. Like nothing, no feedback, no criticism, no judgment can stop me. It'll fuel me. It's helpful. Thank you. I want to see that. I want to see where I am self-deluding about my own intention because I say intention equals impact. So, if I'm hearing impact, I'm going to own that, that, "Oh, that must have been my intention because that's what happened." Oh, I missed it. Sorry about that. Where did I miss it? Okay, great. Cool. Can we go again? Now, you might be with somebody that wants to resent instead of forgive, but that's a whole different conversation. Whole different conversation. Right. And if that's the case, then I mean, good luck. But yeah, yeah, then that is what is. You could decide you want to stay married for the kids or whatever stories people have about that. But anyway, responsibility is freedom. And if I'm willing to look at how I'm lying to myself and own that, I really won't have much more time to think about how other people are lying because it's You know, I'm a mixed bag. I'm a mixed bag, and human beings are mixed bags, period. I'm not— I'm not like who's the— who's in any— even in, in life, or definitely in like movies, there's not like a hero and a villain. We're both always. So if you're the hero of your own story, you're missing where your growth is, because it's in that dark corner you don't want to talk about. But if you can turn the lights on over there and be okay with it, you can connect with anybody. Yeah, that's why it's like when I meet somebody that's like the most narcissistic, crazy criminal person, I can be their friend. Why? I know my criminal side. I know my dark side, and I'm not scared of it. It actually is my ally. It teaches me things. I don't want to follow it, but the fact that I can do it, the fact that I have done it, the fact that I'm complicit with it at times, the fact I've got all those horror stories And I'm busy looking for a resource in that area of my life. And therefore I can connect with anybody. Yeah.

And just, I think that's a big part of it. Yeah. I think that's a big part of the conversation with our clients and then with whoever, you know, who's listening to this today is, you know, there's that side of you and we can wrap up with this is, you know, the side of us that we're protecting from God forbid. If someone finds this out about me, I will be completely rejected. How do you bring that to the light? Right? How do you transform that? How do you use that as a leverageable tool in that process? Right? And I say this all the time. I even had this conversation this morning with a client where, you know, I do 50% of my week is couples counseling. And every single one of my— you know, if you listen to my podcast, you'll hear this. If you talk to me within a certain amount of sessions, you'll hear this. It's no secret that in 2010, I got divorced. But that has— right. And I think no client has ever walked away from me saying, oh, now that I found this out, I absolutely don't want to work with Jason Wasser. Right. In fact, quite the opposite. Right. It's like, oh, you have this other side of like, you've been there. Yes, I know what not to do too. I know what— how awful it can be. I know what that legal process is. I know what it's like to, like you said, to have friends who don't, you know, who aren't going to join you on the next stages of your journey and just dismiss you for whatever reasons, right? Let me walk you through these things. And I think that brings extra value to the table when, you know, if, if everybody listening can ask themselves this question of like, what's the thing that, God forbid, if someone knew that I thought this, if someone knew that I believe this, if someone knew that this happened to me, if someone knew that I experienced this, they would absolutely reject me for. I'd be shunned. I— no one would want to talk to me. No one would want to be friends with me. No one want to be in relationship with me. That's the stuff that is the transformation component of your life. Could be the beginning of that by just embracing that. Yeah.

Well, lots to talk about here. Lots to talk about. I'll try to be very concise with just a couple of points on it. Sure. Yeah. So let's see. So many ideas. First off, living in the story that if they knew that about me, I'd be rejected. I've already I've already planned rejection. Yes. It's the same thing, right? Yeah. Like, if I told them, they'd leave tells me I can't be myself around them. So I'm not there anyway, right? So I'm already playing, I'm already hiding. I'm already a persona. I'm wearing a mask. And so any kind of capacity for joy goes way down because of the— or even like, the capacity for love goes way down because they're loving the mask. They're not loving me. So you're already setting yourself up to be right and to justify your own cowardice. And I've been there before, right? I've had secretive times in my life. I lived this double life for a long time, which led to the first divorce. I've been divorced twice, so, you know, had plenty of like weird feelings about that and like what I'd make up people thought about that. Once people get to know me, they realize I'm pretty articulate about it and I'm owning it and Two very different stories about what happened and about how really I happened in both things. So, and I'm cool with any of it. So if I'm honest with myself when somebody says, "Hey, that's, you know, you're a loser." I'm like, "Oh, love you. That's cool. I get it." Yeah. Well, I get it. So you think you haven't made mistakes and haven't avoided conversations? Ah, cool. Well, we're not really the same type of people anyway. Right. So, yeah. So, let's see what else. So, that's the first thing. Secondly, I mean, to your first question, the first spot is I have to be willing to be honest with myself. So, don't try to be honest with someone else until you're honest with yourself. That's why I think a journaling practice is a very healthy thing. And when I go— when I've been through dark times in my life, I don't journal. Why? I don't want to see it. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to own it. But if you've got stuff that you're carrying around, just at least be willing even just to start talking to yourself about it, which might sound like funny advice. Like, just go on a walk and talk to yourself like you're your own audience. Like, here's what's really going on, man. And then, you know, it's not written down. People can't find it and read it and they, you know, post it on whatever. Just start talking to yourself in an honest way and realize Oh, I'm not dying. Like putting language to this level of despair or criminality or whatever's going on. You don't die. You actually become more alive. You might be more sad. That's different than dying. That's actually usually a sign of life because if you've got a conscious, your guilt is a sign of life. That's good. So, you know, be guilty. You know, feel the guilt. Like, you know, because I think we're all born good. I don't think we're like, you know, born evil. I think we're born good. So do that. And then if you don't have anybody to talk to, that's a sign of the types of relationships you've created to protect yourself. So if you don't have anyone to talk to, find someone to say, hey, I've got some stuff I want to get off my chest. Can I share some things with you? And can I trust you to just "Keep it here. I just need to say something." Now, you can do that with a therapist, which is usually, you know, that's a good spot to do it or a good spot to start. But if you don't have anybody in your life, okay, get a friend. Yeah. And if they won't be that for you, it's probably feedback you've not been that for them. So I've gotten used to asking people that I can tell are struggling, and they usually don't respond right away, but I just say, "Hey, is there anything you want to get off your chest, man? You seem like you got something on your mind that you don't know what to tell." to talk about it. I'm just like, I'm okay with a sloppy version of what's going on for you. It's all good for me, man. Yeah. And it's, and it's, I, I guarantee it won't scare me.

Well, I had a very good example of that this weekend at a conference that I was at. Someone I've known forever, it's like just their whole disposition was just constricted off. Yeah. And I kept going like, you doing okay? They're like, yeah, yeah, I'm getting, you know, I mean, and it was an integrative medicine workshop, so we're doing, we're working on our stuff while we're there. And at the end of the weekend, he comes to me, he's like, can you save some time for us to workshop together? And then when I did show up, he's like, of the people that are here, you're the person the most that I know because of past conversations. And I'm like, well, I, you know, what took you so long, right? Was my, you know, because I know that person is a giver. They don't want to take up space. They're, they're, they're a wonderful human being. But they don't, but, but their whole role has been to give. Not to ask. Yes. Yeah. Right. And they desperately need it in that moment. Sure. And those of us who love this person, we're so happy to give.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you're that persona, and I've been that, I was a nurse out of college, and then I was a pastor for many years. And so folks that are like into other people and are givers, they usually have the most that they need to talk about because people are busy receiving from them. And it's a very safe space and they are usually— that's why when I meet somebody that's really religious, I'm like, what's this guy's dark side? I always know it. Or the guys that are so nice, I'm like, I wonder what he's pissed about, because nice guys are fucking angry. Yeah. And you know, I typically try to provoke that in the training room. But, um, yeah, man, I think that's— yeah, that's a part of it. And there's a— if I put a button on I mean, maybe, maybe just the love for the audience is— you might feel like you got a long track ahead of you, and you might feel like you got time, but you might not. And when I was in my 30s, I, you know, made— started making some decisions I thought I could outrun. And I thought some of my bad decisions, you know, I would just hold on to. But life's really short. And so my invite to you is like, honor yourself enough to go after the best experience you could have in life. And if you got kids, if you've got a partner, if you've got a lover, they— they— I was going to say they deserve that. I don't know if that's true, but that's your best gift to them, is to be most alive. Right? You deserve that. You deserve it. That's right. So Whatever you're struggling with, especially dudes, I think struggle with this the most— struggle with— make this decision the most. It's not like a struggle, it's a strategy. But, and, and we just settle for shit. And I'm just— I am very committed to being a guy that helps people relate to life in a way that they get the most ROI, both on results and also relationally and joy and contentment and all that type of thing. And I'm in that conversation myself always, so just get after it, you know. For some reason, the phrase for the last few months— I don't know how it came up for me, but just let it rip. That's like the phrase that's in my head, just let it rip, you know. That's perfect. Don't be— don't be— we always, we always say in the training room, don't be too proud to die. Yeah, don't— just go ahead and die. Go ahead, do it, and you'll, you'll get, you'll get rebirth. That's how this works. That's how this works.

That's where ego tricks you up, for sure, for sure, for sure. Ah. Well, first of all, I know we got to hold here, but I know we could keep going for probably an infinite amount of hours. Forever. But that's why— thank you, thank you, thank you. Well, that's why you have two podcasts where people can hear more of that. So feel free to just plug those quickly and plug your website quickly. Sure.

So my website is takenewground.com. We do all types of coaching and training. And I'd mentioned the Revenant a couple times. You click up the public training, it's a groundbreaking my, my business partner who's 70 years old is the GOAT in this world. His name is Dan Takini. He, his first coaching company was called, drum roll please, The Coaching Company. So he's been around for a while. He's the OG. Yeah, he's the OG. He was around with Werner Erhard back in the human potential movement. He was trained, he was trained by him. He ran LifeSpring. He opened up more than half the country for John Hanley with LifeSpring. He's, he is, uh, when I met Dan and saw him train, I thought, I'm gonna be this guy's friend and learn from him the rest of my life. And now we're business partners and he's my best friend. He's 70 years old. Uh, if you could ever come to a Revenant, come to it, come to it. Just see, especially while Dan's alive. I come there and not try and try not to mess things up, but he's the GOAT. So anyway, Take New Ground. We work with, you know, as I mentioned, founders and companies and come clean up leadership teams. Um, don't talk to us if you don't want things to get a little messy, because they got to get messy. Um, but we're lovers of people, but we love you enough to at least point out reality. So that's our work. Had to— have had two historical podcasts, one Raising the Bar with Ali, second one Naked Leadership Podcast, and we love those. And I do this a ton too. So if anybody wants to reach out to me, adrian.k on Instagram is an easy way to find me. And I would love to always talk to anybody, encourage anybody, resource anybody, help somebody get connected. I know if you're connected to Jason's world, I'd love you already. So So however I can help, we help turn around companies, we help turn around leadership teams, and we do all that negotiation type stuff, but always with a lot of heart.

With a lot of heart, yeah. That's what I'm finding, and that's what I'm connecting to here. So everybody, all those links will be in the show notes. And obviously, if you have any questions for either one of us, Instagram is always pretty quick and easy for both of ours. And Adrian, again, thank you so much for the time. You're the man. Very much appreciated. We'll do this again.

All right, buddy. See you, friend.