You Winning Life Podcast Ep 3 with Jason Wasser: Dr. Ilene Cohen: Why Everyone Benefits From Therapy

So I'd like to welcome everybody back to the You Winning Life podcast. I'm here with Dr. Eileen Cohen, licensed marriage and family therapist and author. Thank you for joining us today.

Thank you for having me.

Sure. So, so you're now in private practice, you're teaching, you're writing, you're doing a lot of really cool stuff. What's one of the things that's helped you balance all of that in your life with all these amazing things going on for you?

Well, a big thing for me has been scheduling. I'm probably the only person that still carries around like a calendar and a to-do list in them, but I like to make sure that I have time for everything, which then allows me to have more freedom later. So I'll make sure, you know, the time that I have to write, to schedule in clients, maybe to get in a workout in if I'm lucky, and then of course time spent with the family. So, um, and you know what, it ends up being enough time in the week once you kind of schedule it and have it out there.

That's really cool. So let's talk about prioritization, choosing what's most important to you. And this idea that I learned in my entrepreneurship world is, is that people think that if you schedule your life out, it's actually going to be more boring. But it sounds to me like you're in agreement with that, where the more you are organized, the more you know what you're going to do, when you're going to do it, you actually get more freedom. Out of that.

And then you're always doing something different, you know, like you get more freedom, but I'm not doing the same thing every day. You go, you do a routine, but it still can be exciting.

Yeah, yeah. So tell us, how do you decided— when did you know, how did you decide to become a therapist?

So I was really interested in learning about human behavior, the brain, the mind, and an undergrad I studied psychology and philosophy, and from there I saw that I really enjoyed it, and I took on an internship where I was actually working with people, children, and I enjoyed that too. So I decided to apply to graduate school, and from there I just enjoyed learning about it and then thinking, okay, everything I learn can be helpful and useful to other people. I thought that was the great, a great fit for me.

Yeah, so both of us came from the same background, the same program, same training at Nova Southeastern. And for many people out there who aren't familiar with the psychology or the mental health world, at least in Florida, there are 4 main categories of what we do that can fit into those, um, into those professions. We have the world of psychology or psychologists, and then we have mental health counselors, social workers, and marriage and family therapists such as ourself. And our philosophy and our training is actually radically different than those other three fields. So from your understanding, how would you put that into context for those of us out there that are listening and don't know that there's, right, there's licensed professional counselors in some states, but what would you say is the biggest difference between a marriage and family therapist and those other perspectives that are out there?

Well, just from the traditional, like, clinical psychologists, I think they concentrate more on the diagnoses part and categorizing and diagnosing mental health issues. The marriage and family therapy aspect is more systemic, where we concentrate on family relationships, marriage, children, and how all of that interaction affects us, um, and, and our world and how we see things. And, um, so I think that's different. So, and To me, a marriage and family therapist, they take therapy more as a conversation and more of a consultation and more of a coaching kind of idea versus maybe some other professionals are in like the expert position and the diagnosis position.

Yeah, which brings us to a conversation we were having earlier about the two different mindsets of a worldview. It's not just about diagnosis and treatment and being the expert or not the expert, but it's more about this idea of what we're talking about before of modernism, the world of modernism versus the world of postmodernism. So for a lot of people out there, those are probably the first time they're gonna hear those two phrases. I know in the art and music world they may use those phrases, but when it comes to therapy, how would you make sense of that to help others understand it?

Well, postmodernism is more the idea of there not really being truth. There's more just people with perspectives. And in therapy, what that looks like is a therapist trying to understand their client's perspective. And where they're coming from and where those ideas came from versus trying to impose, you know, their ideas onto the client. We even say words like client versus patient. I think the— with the modern, it's more psychology patient where the psychologist is more of the expert letting, you know, the client know what the problem is, being the one that maybe gives a diagnosis. To a person and coming from their perspective, telling them what the problem is and isn't, where I think postmodernism allows it just to unravel in therapy.

Yeah, it makes sense, because I remember one of the things that I first learned is that, um, the problem is not the problem, it's what you think about or what you believe about the problem is the problem, right? So there's the two different worldviews of, like, someone who struggles with attention deficit versus someone who is ADD, right? And I think that's one of the distinctions that we make as marriage and family therapists is that it's something that's coming to hang out with you versus something that you are. And we kind of try to have that little bit of a separation, which gives our clients therapeutic maneuverability, right? And a different sense of the word. And do you find that coming from the background where you studied psychology in undergraduate, as you shifted into this marriage and family therapy, systemic relational dynamic world, what was some of the aha aha's that you had that were like, oh, that's different than what they taught me to what I'm practicing and teaching now?

Well, undergrad, it was, it was more pathological. You're kind of seeing what's wrong with everybody, looking for diagnosis and problems, which really isn't the reality. We're not hanging out with a bunch of people with mental disorders all the time, um, that it's not so prevalent, but when you go to the marriage and family therapy field, it's about relationships and, and perspective and, you know, dealing with issues that everybody experiences in daily life, and you're looking for what's working, for their resources and for the resiliency. So it's like a totally different perspective in that, in that way. So I liked that. I'm more of a naturally optimistic person, and of course we discussed you know, the details of what's going on, and we like to gain their perspective, but it's more coming from the client versus me telling the client what's going on with them. They're telling me what's going on with them.

Well, I know one of the funny things that we had to deal with when we were taking one of the courses we took was psychopathology, and I know this is really common anywhere in the medical world when they start doing diagnosis or pathology or psych— or that type of perspective, is that they start looking for that everywhere, right? That everybody you're hanging out— oh, you must have this, or you have this, and that everybody becomes WebMD. For everything. I remember one of my favorite stories is I was dating somebody at the time when I was in graduate school, and we literally just got the DSM, the diagnostic manual for diagnoses for the course, and I'm going through it and we're being tested on it and everything. And I'm like, and I go to the person I'm dating, I'm like, oh my god, they wrote a book about your sister. She's like, what do you mean? I'm like, she's like, well, what part? I'm like, the whole thing. It's like, this is like her biography. And but that, like, we have a mindset in that outside world of, oh, that person must be this, that person must be bipolar, that that person must have ADD. And those are all from our understanding, things that those are stories or definitions that were made up to fit a specific set of symptoms that may go together so that the world out there can maybe have a better context of how to deal with it. And it seems to me, and help me understand this from your perspective, the diagnosis from that world might be more about here's what you need to know about yourself versus how do you— like, it's better for the outs, for the other people to engage with them knowing that versus how does a person of self who's going through those experiences navigate their world, right, with resources and strengths versus you have this and now we need to know how to deal with you. Like for kids with ADD, right, it's more about we're going to give you this label, we're going to show you how we want to treat you versus how can we empower you. And is that something that you found the difference between coming from that psychology background to now being a professor and a clinician?

Yeah, I do, and I think, you know, everything has its place, you know. I don't see anything wrong with any one way of doing things, but if someone finds something not particularly helpful, like if they have a diagnosis and they— it doesn't really fit with them, or it's hard for them to live with that, or they don't know how to deal with it like you said, I think coming from our perspective, marriage and family therapy sees it in the bigger picture. You know, what happened through the family system, that how is your parents gonna relate to you now, or your siblings, or how can you relate to yourself, or what changes can you make given this situation to make things better. It's not like, okay, you— like you were just saying, you have these, these set things and this is what your life is gonna look like, and you're kind of stuck in that one perspective. I think marriage and family therapists allow you to have multiple perspectives of what's happening and gives you, I think, more freedom to make choices around that, if that makes sense.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that one of the more beautiful things is that when you're saying— we're saying this phrase marriage and family therapy, a lot of people out there might think that's all we do. So if I'm not married or I haven't created a family or I'm not coming in with my family, we can't see them. So how do you fight that stereotype, right? If someone calls you and like, oh, I'm a 23-year-old I'm a 20-year-old college student going into grad school, but you're a marriage and family therapist. Can I come see you? How would you explain that to them, that you're the perfect—

I use the word psychotherapist too, because I think a lot of marriage and family therapists use that as well. But marriage and family therapist is really just a perspective. So I see it more individuals than anything. You're bringing those individuals into the session. Not everybody you know, you're here, but you have like your father's voice in your head, your mother's, you know, your siblings, your friends, your significant other, you know, those, we bring those people into therapy, you bring them into therapy. So we're not gonna only be talking about you and what's going on with you, we're gonna bring in those family members and see how they affect you and your, and how you wanna change your relationship with them.

So speaking of bringing family members into therapy, one of the questions that we probably get most commonly is, do we have our own therapists, or what type of self-care, what type of therapy do we do for ourselves? So I know in your, your training, um, in, in the model of therapy you do, that's part of your, part of your personal practice, right?

Yeah, so I work with Bowen Family Systems Theory, and I, I read about it on my own, but I also do this 9-month workshop every year, um, and that helps me to keep in it, know what the latest research is. But through that, we, the Bowen Family theory is that the therapist has to work on themselves and their unresolved issues with their family so they can be helpful to their clients. So we do like our own genograms, which is really our family trees of, you know, history of mental health issues or anxiety and things like that. And then also any cutoff or people in your life that you have kind of a turmoil relationship with and how you can resolve those relationships and what part do you play in that. So you really have to work on yourself too, which helps. I think it's helped me connect better to my clients because they're doing work that I've done too, so I can kind of meet them where they're at.

Yeah, and it sounds like that unfinished business, the more we don't work on our own unfinished business, the less effective we're going to be as practitioners. So this idea of like really going and seeing your own stuff and even bringing it to the table and possibly even sometimes sharing an experience with our clients, that vulnerability, that self-disclosure, which goes both ways in our world of like how much do we share with our clients about our personal stuff. I know some of our colleagues are saying when it comes up to a story about them, they're like, "Oh, I have this friend who went through just that same circumstance." And I know there's a big debate in our world about how much do you self-disclose, and I'm a huge self-discloser for the sake of context. In my practice, but that idea of vulnerability, which is a huge topic right now, right, with Brené Brown and all the amazing work she's doing. What's, what's been your personal take on the more vulnerable you've gotten in your personal world, how that's helped you with your clients and in your own personal life?

Well, it was tough for me at first because I always wanted to think that, you know, I was the fixer. I'm so perfect and, and I don't really have problems. I'm here to help everybody else. And until I really took a look at myself and opened up some unresolved stuff did I realize, oh shoot, I got to work on me too, and I'm actually playing a part in a lot of the problems that I'm seeing in other people. And a wonderful way for me to open up my vulnerabilities was through writing, and that was always the case. I was always writing since I was young, journaling, things like that. But it was really big for me to put out my first few articles. I never really disclose— self-disclose in sessions. But I do self-disclose a lot in my writings and my articles, and I do find that to be helpful to other people to hear like, "Oh, she's going through the same stuff that I am." It helps normalize it for them, and it helps us connect better. So I used to think it would be something that made me look weak, or like maybe I don't know what I'm talking about because I have problems too. But it let people relate to me more once I was open because I wasn't just like putting it out there and complaining. I was saying, okay, this is what I went through. This is, you know, through my psychology and through my life experience, this is how I resolved it. And maybe this could be helpful to you too in some way.

Very, very cool. So now that you've been practicing for a good number of years and you got your doctoral degree and you're teaching, what's been some of your favorite, favorite, most rewarding experiences for you?

Well, For me, it's always like doing the stuff that scares me a lot and like not wanting to do them and then doing them and it being okay. Like, I'm more of a shy, reserved person and I went from never even really speaking that much in class or hating to present to teaching and doing interviews and like putting my personal stuff in like books and articles. And that's scary. Like, I always wanted to teach, but like my first class I was like, why am I doing this? Why did I apply? Why did I interview? Like, I was kicking myself, you know, and I was like, I can't do this, but I can't back out. So I think through all of this, it's— and I'm growing now, like I can do interviews without like thinking I need a bottle of vodka before. I could, you know, go teach a class without like sweating my brains out before. So I think it's just, it's made me grow and do things that I wouldn't normally do. Is the big one.

So what's been the most shocking or surprising thing that you've accomplished based on those fears or those insecurities that you had before that you didn't think like, oh my God, now that I'm doing this, I never thought this would come true for me.

Well, people are relating to me. You know, I can actually like teach a class and enjoy it. Like, I really like that. I enjoy it. I can talk to interesting people and I enjoy that. Um, It's crazy, people like my writing and connect to it and write to me. So, you know, maybe I'm making a little bit of an impact or making changes for other people through my own struggles. So, and then hopefully it can help someone else that isn't doing something just because they're scared to do it too, because that is the most rewarding when you really don't think you can do it and you just kind of just like I kind of just pushed myself. I'm like, you have to do it, just do it. And I put myself in positions where I can't back out. Like if someone— my first interviews, I'm like, just write yes and like send the thing. You can't back out after you say yes. Like, don't think about it too long. So I knew kind of what my goals were and then I just pushed myself into being like super sweaty and uncomfortable and that had the biggest payoff.

Well, I know in the entrepreneur circles I've been hearing a lot of chatter about this idea of being in the imposter syndrome. And it's really refreshing to hear, right, as we can sit with our clients and as you were just sharing a few moments ago about like, yeah, I struggle with this stuff too. And I'm sure it's really rewarding. The work that we're doing is obviously very rewarding, but I'm sure it's really powerful for people who are going to be listening to this interview to have the ability to work with someone like us who's also going through typical normal life stuff and also have self-doubt and also like, are we really okay at doing this? Am I really good enough? Do this. I think that brings a lot of value to people out there that you can be in whatever career you're in and still have to work through stuff to get to the next level, which is really, really, really cool. So I'm glad that we get to hold that space for people out there. So I know that one of the things you said you love doing, you've always been doing, which has been a great resource for you, is writing. And now you're the author of two books, one that just recently came out a few months ago. So tell us a little bit about each of them. I know your first one was called When It's Never About You. And that's been out for a little bit. So let's start there with that book.

So when it's never about you, it was my first baby. I always wanted to write a book and I always wanted to write, and it actually happened by accident. I had my first kid and I was home kind of bored, and I like to learn, and I was like, my brain's turning into mush. Like, this baby's cute and all, but like, we can't talk. Like, I was like reading a bunch of baby books but I was like, I need— so I was like, this could give me an opportunity when I'm home to start writing. And I started a blog. And then from there, I'm like, you know what, maybe now I could just take up a book. And I was like, what better than to write through— I had gone through— I was a people pleaser for many years. And then I started working with clients that were that once I got through it., and I was learning through my own work I was doing with Bowen Family Systems Theory, and I had read a ton about it, and I was like, let me just start writing about my struggles, and I wrote some articles on it that people seem to relate to, so then I kind of transitioned into making that into a book and putting in some of my clients' stories and going through the whole theory behind what helped me to get out of that. So that was like, I think it was like a personal project for me, and it was a healing, you know, project, and then it turned into something that I was really proud of, and I think a lot of people can relate to, which I think is awesome. And then I continued to write, and I connected with actually a Chabad rabbi which I had no idea that a lot of Jewish ideas connected with the psychology I was working from. And until I saw his work, I didn't realize that. And we had shared a lot of— he would share my stuff, you know, some of my writings with his congregation, and I would share some of his things, and I really enjoyed it. So we had been talking for like 2 years, and then we decided to collaborate, and we just came out with this book called It's Within You, which, um, it's to allow people to see their worth from within and make changes for themselves versus trying to change all their external circumstances and the world around them to give them that worth. So we connect— he has some chapters, I have some chapters— and it comes from like a spiritual and a psychological perspective. I've really had to live a better life, um, through more of responding to your world versus reacting to it.

Which is really cool because it's, it's, it seems like the, the title of your first book, When It's Never About You, and then flip-flopping, It's Within You, is these two, you know, internal, external perspectives and paradigms. So I know, like, I've done a lot of reading in the law of attraction world and Esther Hicks and, and that idea that, like, you're not responsible for anybody else's outcome. And the whole other thing is like, you're not responsible for also how anyone, how anybody sees you or chooses to see you. And the fact that if you're going to spend time, effort, or energy trying to convince them to see you any differently, you're just right. There's just way too much going on in the world for that to make sense and for that to shift. And you're pretty much wasting your time. So the way I'm listening to both of these paradigms is I think that, that you're talking about a bigger equation. It's never about you, meaning nothing that goes on in your life that's going on in the outside world has anything to do with you, which is right. What The Four Agreements, you know, that, right, the book by Ruiz, which is, right, agreement number one is be impeccable with your word. Number two is don't take things personally, right? Don't make assumptions. And four is that you're gonna screw up, try over again. So it really sounds like you're really tapping into that equation of if you realize that it's never about you, then look at all the stuff you're not gonna have to be invested in, all that drama and trauma. And then when you take full ownership and responsibility over who you are and what you're doing, all the answers and all the resources are within you. So it sounds to me like you're really hitting this beautiful— it seems like a dichotomy, but it's actually a one-two punch of a fully empowered life. How would— like, so, so taking it back into the realm of spirituality, and you said that like you found that a lot of things in, in Judaism match up with, with, with psychology, what were some of those things that really stood out for you?

What really stood out was the connection of how we are in our relationships. So I know, you know, in Judaism our relationships are very important. And from, you know, the rabbi's perspective is that even though we do see our relationships as important, we're only responsible for our part and like who we are and how we choose to respond to the people in our lives and how we value ourselves. A lot of people go into relationships or look to their family and everyone else to give them that value, to give them that worth, to give them that respect. And from, you know, more of the Judaic perspective and the psychology, God put us here with a purpose, and we have that already. We have that intrinsic worth. And we were— it's already there, so there's no need to look to others to do that. And when we don't know our worth, we're more sensitive, like, you know, we take things more personally, and we're blinded more by our subjective ideas through that pain and hurt of, you know, trying to seek so much value from others that then it hinders our relationships. You know, we're more sensitive to what people say. So one of them, the rabbi used the example of if a husband and wife are cleaning dishes and the husband's washing them and the wife is drying them, and the wife goes, "Oh, this dish is still dirty," and the husband goes, "What do you mean? I don't know how to wash dishes. Like, what are you doing?" and walks off. You know, you take a step back and you look at the objective experience. She was really objectively telling him like, "It's dirty." She didn't mean anything personal. But he took it on as, oh, you're telling me I'm not a good husband, I'm not washing the dishes, right? And he's using his sensitivity and his subjective experience that he's, you know, thinking he's only worthy when his wife tells him certain things, and that kind of blows it up. Versus if he already knew his worth, if he could take a step back and actually look at the objective, you know, picture of what was really happening, how he can better respond to his spouse in that type of situation. Which is— Yeah, I'm sure you're— I laugh because I do those things too. I put my personal, you know, because I was so much— my value was so much on what people told me. I took things so personal and blew things up when the other person was really just, you know, making a clear objective statement.

Well, a lot of the things that you're talking about, it's funny that one of the experts in this world, especially for relationship relationship counseling is Dr. John Gottman.

Mm-hmm.

So in a way, some of the things you were just sharing, and I wonder if that's some of his things, but he talks about the Four Horsemen, right, of the Apocalypse, which although isn't a Jewish theme, it's actually more from, from the Christian mindset. But he— that's one of the basic principles of his, of his theory, right, for relationship dynamics, whether it's love relationship, friend relationship, whatever it is. But the Four Horsemen as you're familiar, is the criticism, the contempt, the defensiveness, and the stonewalling. So when you're telling that story, it's like he immediately, right, the husband immediately went defensive. Me? Like, what did I do wrong? And then, right, shuts down. And you can see how these theories are out there and how we get to play with them on a day-to-day basis. And yeah, definitely spirituality, all different religious backgrounds definitely, definitely imbue it. So if you were to be able to— I know this is one of my favorite questions to ask, and you're gonna be the first person that gets this question asked to them, and hopefully you can answer, would be, if you can only share one bit of guidance, advice, or insight, and you couldn't say or give over anything else to the people that were in front of you, and you only had 2 minutes to do it, and you distilled it all down, right, as if we're like with Rabbi Akiva, teach me everything on one foot, What might that be?

I would say it's okay to go slow, to be a snail, whether it's starting your own business or working on yourself. I think people think things need to happen so quickly, and it's really just about getting started. And just like me with my first blog, or even working on myself, it was just like that one first workshop I did or that one book I read probably took me months. And my blog that I just an hour a week, you know, started. So I would say it's okay to start slow in anything in life because that builds up. And I think that will help people get started versus like thinking, oh, I have so much to do. But there's a lot of time. That's what I realized. And there's always like a little thing you can schedule to do each week that will help you towards your goal.

Well, it reminds me of a story. When I was 19 or 20, I was working at a Hebrew school in New York, and one of our responsibilities was to rotate each couple weeks that we had to man the snack bar before when the kids came from school, and we would do the after-school religious school. And I remember the kids like grabbing at the snacks like, "I want it, I want it!" And I remember turning to the secretary of the school who was helping man the snack bar, and I'm like, "God, like instant gratification." And this was 1999-ish, right? So a while ago, pre-instant messaging and all that stuff. Like Harry Potter books just came out. I think the first Harry Potter books just came out around that year. And when I said to her, like, instant gratification, and she's like, no, no, no, you don't get it. Instant gratification is no longer fast enough.

It's true.

And that was in 1999, right before social media, before all these things. Were happening. So I think you're really hitting on a powerful point, is this deliberate, this rhythms and rituals, this creating a roadmap for yourself, really. Did you know that when you were writing your blog that it was eventually you're going to have not just one book but two books? I mean, I'm sure there was something like simmering, like, it would be great if, but did you even realize that it would actually ever come into fruition for you?

Well, I know I always wanted to write one book at least. And now since I did it, I loved it. I keep doing it. But my first thing was just I wanted to keep my mind going, like I said, and read and kind of put work out there and see what happened. And no, I had no idea that I would be where I am right now, but it was definitely just something I enjoyed doing and I didn't need any— it definitely isn't instant gratification when it comes to writing. I mean, I started 4 years ago. It takes a lot of time, so you have to be willing to kind of sit in the discomfort of like, this is— nothing's happening. And like, you're just doing it with like, I didn't have any results, followers for a while. And just doing it because it's part of who you are and what you want to do, not to gain anything from it at first.

So can we talk about what you just said there is such an important thing. I didn't have any followers at first. And I know right now, right, 2019, social media, how many likes am I getting? How many followers? How many comments am I getting? And this is really, really a big issue as I do a lot of entrepreneur coaching and I'm hanging out in those worlds that people are talking about that over and over again. So what's been your awareness of going from I'm not— I'm just getting started, I don't have all these followers, to building people like you said that are now reaching out to you, they're now emailing you. And I know patience, like you said, is part of it, but was there a part of you that did struggle with that? Maybe the insecurity side of like, maybe what I put out there isn't good and no one's going to reach out to me. So how would you advise and give any insight to people out there that are listening that might be going through something like that?

I used to see people with thousands or millions of followers and you're like, wow. And then you have like 2 people reading your stuff and you're like, yeah, I had maybe a 3rd person today read my article. And it makes you feel insecure. But then when you take a look, a lot of those people are around for 7, 8 years, and they were putting out consistent content, consistent, you know, videos, whatever they're doing. And they wouldn't just happen like, oh, now today I have all these followers. Like, it was a process. So if you really look before, you know, and you see anyone's experience You know, I used to look at like my professor's resumes and be like, oh my gosh, I want to do everything they're doing, but they were like 30 years older than me, you know, it takes time to get there. So you have to just start somewhere. You're not gonna— and I don't think it's really the amount of followers, it's like the value of, you know, the people that if they're actually reading and they're actually responding and they're gaining, but like anything, it's a process and it's really— I mean, for me, maybe somebody else I never bought followers or anything, but it was a slow process, you know, I was going from getting like 2 subscribers a week and then, but then it would pick up with a book or like if one article went big. So it was, wasn't for me at least overnight. So I would say just if you're enjoying it, like I was, I was just doing it and I enjoyed it and I put it out there and someone read it great. Um, and then over time it just kind of happens. For me, I just did it very generically.

Which is really cool because you're one of my first new interviews for this podcast. And I know that I'm part of a podcast community online and I hear people constantly talking about like, what do I need to do to get more followers? How long is it? How many months in? Like, I'm 6 months in. Shouldn't I have 10,000 followers by now? And it doesn't work that way in any way. People are starting off in business. Why aren't I having more clients and all that? I know. Just so we can be really vulnerable, I can be really vulnerable. I think we were half, half hour into this interview when I realized that it wasn't recording and we had to start this whole thing over. Things are going to get screwed up and we're going to mess up and we're going to own it. And I think this conversation is a lot tighter, right, than it was maybe the first 30 minutes going around. But people don't see behind the scenes, right? We're not just practitioners, but we're also business owners and we're entrepreneurs. And people talk, you know, we want to put the shiny face out there. So I really think that's a powerful thing of saying like this long, play the marathon, not the 5K. You're gonna screw up, put out a lot of data, put out your thoughts, don't be afraid, don't edit, you don't even have to edit it, just put it out there. I think that's a really powerful teaching for people out there who are going to be listening to this. So as we wrap up, and this has been a really, really awesome conversation, how can people follow you, right? I want to— so to get you more than 2 followers in the next week, guys out there, you have to follow her. And she's gonna give— please give us the information of where we can check out your books and, and your blog and your website. And people want to, you know, there's enough out there in the world, right? Where I know we're both in the same neighborhood. There's so many great practitioners because we came from a great program. So, you know, I have this belief that there's no such thing as competition, right, out there. And people always wonder like, well, aren't you good friends with all these therapists? How do you guys work refer to each other. Everybody has their own niche, right? And we have our things that we're good at and things that we, we definitely want to refer out because we don't have the patience for it. So where can people find you?

So my website is Dr. Ileen, but Dr. spelled out, then ileene.com. And my social media for Instagram and Facebook is @DrIleen, also, you know, spelled out. And my books are in any store. I mean, I mostly sell on Amazon. But I'm Barnes Noble, iTunes, and basically any place you can get a book. So, but Amazon's definitely the easiest place.

Awesome, awesome. Well, I really want to thank you for spending your time with us, and I know that we might— we were hoping for non-distractions on your end, right? Because I know you said that your baby's downstairs, and it turned out I had the distraction on my end with having to start a over, so I appreciate your patience of everything, and I'm really looking forward to seeing more from you and all the success you're having and knowing you and your family and all the really cool things that are happening for you. And thank you for, for sharing all this really great stuff with us.

Thanks for having me.

My pleasure.