You Winning Life Podcast:The Lost Art Of Civil Discourse with guest Billy Planer of Etgar 36

So welcome back to the You Winning Life podcast. Jason Wasser. I'm here with Billy Planer, who I've known since I was in high school. He was a youth director for the youth group that I grew up in, but he was in Atlanta, Georgia. I was here in South Florida. And over the years, he created this insanely awesome business called Edgar 36. And it's a civil rights trip that started off for teenagers, and then within a year of being in business, the demand for starting doing it, this trip for adults and other people in the community started happening for him. So within a year, the business that he started to create had this much bigger plan and possibility happen. So today we're going to talk a little bit about politics and civil rights and education and working with teenagers, how to pivot your business, especially now what's going on for him during the pandemic, how to take a business that was fully in-person, traveling around the country, meeting people, civil rights activists, leaders, stuff like that, and then having to pivot his whole business to an online-based or distance-based business. So, Billy, first of all, thank you for hanging out with us.

Great to be here. It is great to be here. One of the wonderful things is, you know, when you work with young people is watching y'all become who you become and still being engaged. So, it's a thrill to be here.

Thank you. Well, it's a blessing and You know, we talk about in Jewish tradition, there's the phrase hakarat hatov, right? To give gratitude to the people who inspired us along the way. And I know that, like, you know, we've kept in touch. I mean, we're talking about, like, I graduated in 1996 from high school. So, right. So we're now— so it's a while. And as we've always— when we see each other over the years, it always is like, for me, no time has passed. So I'm really glad to be sharing your story with what you do, because I've been following everything you've been doing for years. And it's such a cool and unique niche. And I just got off a coaching call with someone who's a new therapist and they're trying to figure out what their niche is. And I'm like, well, what problem are you uniquely positioned to solve? And they started telling me about their backstory, but what they're passionate about, I'm like, okay, well, how can you do that and sustain yourself and financially support yourself without going broke to help that, right? So in a way, it kind of sounds like you found an incredibly unique niche. Yeah. Because there was a program that was already very similar to yours, but you kind of— right, so let's talk a little— let's start there, like, because let's give people context of that background.

So, you know, you can't, uh, dismiss the urgency of having an income and, and being able to do something that gets you excited to do. And I've been doing this youth work, and that's how we crossed paths, for at least 15 years at this point. And I was starting to feel like, uh, I'm burning out here. And it was getting to the idea of— well, that's already jumping ahead. So at this point, I was like in a panic because I knew I liked the concept of the youth work. I knew I liked the education piece. And but I knew I needed a different venue. And so I really— I distinctly remember sitting at home on the couch on a Friday. A friend had suggested to me at some point, make a list of everything that excites you. Don't read the list, just write on it for about 2 weeks. Don't refer back to anything, don't try and make it make any sense. And after 2 weeks, I looked at it and I saw like travel. I had been following the Grateful Dead around the country and this, When Jerry Garcia passed, I sort of stopped because what I liked— I love the shows, but I also liked the travel to different cities and exploring the cities during the day, and then I'd meet up with my friends at night at the shows. So I like travel. I like seeing what was unique in the cities. I liked— I had already been working with my youth group, taking them to a different city every year. So it was a loose idea of this already. I liked that a lot. And then I liked politics, I liked activism, I like just being connected, the news, current events, and then tracing back to historical events. So I just put it all together and I was like, oh, this isn't such a leap. Take that weekend trip that I like and just how can I expand it? So on a Friday afternoon, I remember just sitting there, I pulled out a map, and I had been influenced too. I'd been reading books and I read a book called The Magic Bus by Doug Brinkley, who took his students from Hofstra on a 5-week, 6-week trip around America. But his was more based on literature, but it was what's unique in the cities and tying things together. And I actually— and I highly recommend this— I reached out, you know, reach out to the people who influence you. And I wrote to him and said, you know, I read your book, I created this program with my youth groups, I just want to thank you. And he wrote back, actually, and we are still in touch to this day. You know, and so really, I don't recommend people reading that book. You'll see how much I stole from him completely. Between that and West Wing is my whole summer trip right there. But—

Understandable.

Sitting there on the couch, putting it together and realizing I don't have to take a huge leap. But what would a trip around the country look like? And I knew I wanted the summer trip to be about history, politics, and activism. So, I wanted them to meet with all sides of political issues. So, for example, I was thinking, what's big with teenagers? This was 2002. So, this is 4 years after Columbine. So, I knew that guns were going to be an issue, guns in schools. So, in Denver, I was able to meet up with a father whose son was killed at Columbine High School. He's a major gun control advocate because I saw on the news he was speaking and I just Googled him. I mean, this is— the other big lesson is everybody's like, how do you meet these people? What's the magic lesson? I wish I had a sexier story. I would just Google and write to people. And I think people like talking about their stories. So I'm giving them a platform. And then we meet with a lobbyist in the National Rifle Association so that they get a balanced approach to issues. And so it was taking a map of America where do I want to go in America? What makes sense logistically? What makes sense issue-wise? So I figured illiteracy in America, that's an important issue to talk about, something we don't even understand in a country of so much, how we can have 40 million illiterate people in this country and the impact it has on us, by the way. The gentleman who meets with us, I just Googled, I was figuring, okay, San Francisco, I want to take him to City Lights Bookstore. It's the bookstore Jack Kerouac and the Beatniks. It's personal to me. I fantasize about the Beatnik movement. And I was like, that would be a great place to do the literacy talk. And I happened to find a gentleman who learned how to read when he was 44 years old. And now he runs a program called Project Read. You know, ironically, he's on the library staff. But, you know, he met with us in the bookstore. And I was like, this is it. This is the ultimate. But how it, how it connects to you is he was saying some of his friends who are illiterate work— one worked in a control tower in an airport. I was like, well, that's being connected to people we don't even understand. Or one of his friends worked in quality control in a pharmaceutical lab. I mean, it's hard to read those names of the medicine to begin with. He just counted letters and hoping he was putting the right pills.

Wow.

It's all connected. And then he took it a step further. He said, I learned how to read. One person spent one hour a week teaching me how to read. I'm not trying to get to your wallet on the streets now. I have a job. I have respect. I have self-respect. So— and he turned to the teenager, said, so it is about you. And I was like, this is it. This is powerful. So I guess back to your original point is Your pivot doesn't have to be a huge just change. For some people it is, but then to take the risk to start it— so I created it as a not-for-profit. It really came down to me— people are asking, but I'm scared of the risk, I'm scared of the risk. To me, it truly came down to the risk of staying where I was and doing what I was doing and and feeling like I was dying a little bit each day was greater than the leap.

Right.

Yeah.

And I totally understand that because having worked in the communities, you know, in the same type of programs you've worked with, I remember there was a story that I always tell when people are like, well, how did you decide you wanted to go into business? And I remember one day, because when you're working in community nonprofits, there's a board and there's people that like, you know, where you're getting paid for something that you know that you should be getting paid more for and your heart and your soul is in it and you don't want to like, you know, and you have your relationships. But I remember one day I realized that the janitor and I were getting treated exactly the same way by the staff and I'm easily replaceable by the board. Sorry. I knew that my value was there. I knew that what I was offering and what I was giving and what I was, you know, the connections I was having was building incredible relationships, but I was still immediately replaceable. Someone else will be put into my position. That, right, as we know, that it's just an, you know, interwoven community of bouncing around.

And one line, Jason, is, "You're only as good as your last program." That was always a philosophy I had in my mind. I do have to paint— I completely agree, I've heard horror story upon horror story. I was very fortunate. I was at places that treated me well. But I will say to many of my colleagues, I would have to say this because they would turn to me when we would talk about, you know, salary or raises or things like that. And they're like, well, it's easy for you, you work here. I was like, well, actually, part of it is you make it happen too. So while I get in the nonprofit world, you don't have complete control over how you are treated, how they look and value you. So I do want to sympathize with that. But I do want to put out there that some of it is how you let yourself be treated. So like, I remember being in a youth director conference and we were talking about salary negotiations and all that. And I said, I walked in and expected a 10% raise. And people were like, well, I can't ask for that. I can't ask for that. And I stood up and said, you know what, because you won't— you're screwing me over, by the way. I was like, so I'm a little pissed at y'all too. But look, the nonprofit world is the nonprofit world. Your truth was probably more truthful. You know, it's probably more widespread than my— what happened to me. But I do think part of it is how you present yourself and what you expect. I used to always tell my friends, too, You gotta treat yourself like the rock star you think you want to be treated as, you know, and I think it will come around. But yeah, getting out of being directly impacted by outside forces, I mean, you know, if you're running your own business, you're a control freak beyond control freaks. So being impacted by other people didn't sit well either, and I was having a really good experience. It was just more an internal struggle for me the reason I left and moved on to my own thing.

Which makes sense for a lot of people. So there's this dynamic of an intrapreneur versus an entrepreneur, right? And the intrapreneur is like, you buy into the value of everything that you want to in that organization, that structure, whatever it may be. But you don't realize that you can only go so far unless you decide to go become an entrepreneur and create something similar and/or better. But you're right, then the risks start coming in, right? The paycheck's not going to come in, the healthcare is not going to come in automatically. And that's the big step when people have to realize like, am I better off suited working for someone else that has the same values and have the same goals, going home at the end of the day, not worrying about taking the trash out versus doing what you're doing where you at the beginning, right? It was just you. How many years in did you start hiring staff? Because that's where it starts becoming right out of my pocket.

Yes. Nothing is more wild than when I hired my first staff. And I was so excited. And about 2 hours later, I was walking. We actually met in Chicago. I was in Chicago. I flew the person I was thinking of hiring to Chicago. We had in my head, I would always create this ongoing documentary in my head of like telling my narrative as it's happening. I'm like, well, this will be known as the great Chicago meetup and, and really pivotal. Once again, creating making myself the rock star that I wanted to be. Um, so, you know, I hired him. Uh, I was so excited. He left and I was walking around Chicago, and about an hour, 2 hours later, all of a sudden I got the most sick feeling in my stomach. I'm like, he is married, and all of a sudden he trusts me more than I believe in myself right now. You know, I have to— now I can't screw up now. If I screwed up before, it was just me and I would figure that out, you know, and I couldn't blame anybody else. But this person's putting their life and somebody else's life in my hands. But you can't underestimate having your back up against the wall to have to make it. So like, for example, I was just speaking to somebody the other day when I was creating this in 2002. Entrepreneurship, especially in the nonprofit world, was not a big thing. It was not being funded the way it is now. It is not being accepted or valued the way it is now.

And it's not the sexy thing that it is now, right?

Right. No, it was crazy. People didn't get it. People wanted to know who you connected to. And a few years later, when it started to become more accepted, people were getting seed money to do this. And I knew people who were getting like a million dollar seed money to start with. And at the beginning, I'm sitting there going, I'm in my corner, I'm going, God, I've never been so great. These people have no idea what it's like. But then you realize if you're not, if the risk of going hungry is not there, you're going to make mistakes. You get lazy. And so I know people who got offices in parts of cities they should never have done. I'm 18 years down the road. My office, my bedroom's right over there. You know, I'm in my place. There's no point in doing that.

Yeah.

Um, so you don't make mistakes when you are— you're very aware when, when it's your— you're playing on house money, uh, you know, your own money there. So there's a, uh, you know, there's a yin and yang to the acceptance of entrepreneurship. I believe that if you are hungry, if you have to make it, you will make it. Um, if you have an exit strategy If, you know, the baseball just started last night, there's the saying of you can't steal second base if you don't leave first base. You know, you got to step off of first base. So, um, yeah, but when I hired, uh, the person, yes. But I will also say this to entrepreneurs. I talk to entrepreneurs all the time because people spoke to me when I was first starting, and I sort of made a promise that I will talk to anybody at any time about starting something. There is something about that energy of the first year when you are scared beyond belief. But I tell them, I would go back to that any day now. I'm 18 years established, my business, well, you know, it's hard to say now, but before March 1st of this year, I was like, this business isn't going anywhere. Like, we're gonna continue down. But I was like, man, I never felt more alive than I would wake up at 2 in the morning, scared out of my mind, Having fallen asleep at 1:30, but at 2:00, just sweating, crying, and then hear friends of mine going, "I'm living vicariously through you." I'm like, "Really? Can I call you at 2:00 in the morning, 3:00 in the morning when I'm crying? Are you doing that? Because then you're not really living vicariously through me." So, but that energy that everything mattered was just, it was a drug. I mean, that is a high unlike I've ever known.

Well, I think you started it right because those who have been following me and people who are showing to my classes and when I'm working with my clients, I always start off with this one theme. I can't help you until we get crystal clear on your core values. And you're basically telling us, I created a business and a model out of my core values and out of my passions. And I know that there's one thing that I've kind of heard through the grapevine that there is a music passion that you have. That sometimes the music passion and your trip stops align in the same place?

Well, I mean, it helps. It helps when you have complete control, but, uh, yes, um, I will be looking around, and I am a big Bruce Springsteen fan, and it so happens that we have coincided. One year was— the first year was just naturally. I mean, I got to tell you, that first summer, the amount of adrenaline that was used for 36 days was unbelievable. And the fact— I just think there's a great saying that basically, if you take a step, Providence will follow and take care of you. I think it's Goethe who said that. But, you know, So Springsteen's playing in New Jersey, just so happens to be when we're pulling into New York City, just so happens I can find, you know, 25 tickets that are somewhat affordable. And I'm like, well, part of my budget right there, part of my profit there, but I'm like, I don't know if I'm ever going to be doing this again. I mean, when I did the first summer trip, I, I said to myself, I got in the mindset of, um, This may fail and I may go into debt, but that's gonna be the worst thing that's gonna happen to me. But I will never have to ask myself, what if? Like, the price of not having to ask that was I might not make a profit. So I was like, I'll throw it at Springsteen right now. Let me give the ultimate experience. I may only have one shot at this trip. A few years later, when it just so happened, um, The same day that one of the school districts might have been Boston, because we're a nationwide program, might have had too many snow days. And one of the parents said, you know, my kid is going to miss the first day or two, or it might have been New York that impacted more of the kids on our trip. They might have to miss the first day or two because they have to make up snow days. And so I started looking at the calendar and I realized, hmm, if I shifted a week, guess who's playing at Giants Stadium again? This could all work. And I sat back, I was like, well, it's a shame I can't make that happen. That's a pretty big thing to move. And then all of a sudden I was like, I'm the one that makes that decision. Right. So yeah, you know, I think, I get asked a lot, or told a lot, this is a very selfless thing you're doing, the business model, the civil rights trips or the summer trip. And I'm like, really? To me, it's one of the most selfish things I've ever done. We're not doing anything that I don't want to do, but how great when it lines up that what you want to do impacts people, makes a difference, and you can make money off of it, right?

Well, that's, that's, that's self-full, right? This idea of like, you know, it's a selfish idea is like I always talk about this, that -ish, right? The suffix -ish is kind of like half in, right? It's ish, right? So you're not being, you're not being selfish, you're being self-fulfilled. That you're aligning all of your passions, all of your core values, you're being around people you want to be around, and you're doing things that you want to do, and you're bringing people along with that journey that are willing to do that. That's a good for all.

And yeah, you're leaving out one important thing too. You get to be who you want to be. Yeah, you know, I'm the best version of myself on, on the bus, on the road, you know, uh, and you step into that person that you envisioned through the work you get to do, it's a great day. Yeah.

And to have the audacity to like dare to do that, like I was thinking about this over the last couple weeks. So, 3 weeks ago, I actually packed up my entire office. So, actually, beginning of my lease was up the end of June. And I was debating back and forth with the landlord. They were very gracious in giving significant discounts on all the, you know, on the office. And I'm like, it's just not worth it at this point. Like, I don't know when I'm going back. I don't need a storage unit, you know? And so I packed up my office, which was— if I had to make that decision overnight, it would have been a heart-wrenching, anxiety-provoking decision. But since I had 3 months up to that to do this every single day, like I'm talking to you now is how I'm seeing my clients. It was kind of a no-brainer and the emotionality around it was a lot less. I mean, it's still sad at a level, but it wasn't like, oh, this is awful. How am I going to be a therapist without a practice? And now I've been thinking about it. I'm like, I can be anywhere in the world. Sure. Work East Coast hours and still have, right? If I want to try, right? So, but I've always figured like, how am I going to get that? How am I, if I don't want to live in South Florida, even though my family's here, like, how can I pull this off without losing business or having to start over a practice? Again, right? And now this, because of the pandemic, this allowed me the opportunity to do what I want. I'm not traveling anywhere right now, but now my clients know if they want to work with me, I'm never probably going to be back in person again, right?

So I mean, there's always opportunity in opportunity. I mean, you know, you could look at the pandemic right now and be like, this is killing everything. Yeah, but in any crisis, there's going to be opportunity. I mean, you know, Wall Street collapses, many people say that's when you start buying. So there is, but I want to go back to another thought I had when you were speaking about this. This is a fundamental thing that took me a long time to really wrap my head around as an entrepreneur, is it only has to make sense to you, right? We live in a world of should. Of this is how it is, this is how it should be, and you sort of got to be there. And I will go— no, there's no— there's a great feeling of when you go down that path for a little bit and then you stop yourself and go, actually, no, I don't. This, this path over here makes as much sense. That's just a more well-worn path. So it only has to make sense to you. I, uh, the first few years of, um, creating the business. And I, I do want to say, we were getting there at some point at the beginning. I can't underestimate, and I, I tell people this all the time when I'm speaking to them, is the best time to start your business is when you have another job. So for the first year and a half, I had another job, so the risk was mitigated. Um, And luckily, I'm not sure the other job completely understood how much I was going back and forth. Um, I may have been out of town when they thought I was in town. And even to this day, but especially when I create— when I left and started, uh, full-time on my own, I would still have a little guilt feeling when I'd be on the road. I'm like, am I supposed to be here or not? Um, but the, um, the should— oh, for a long time I would have what, what people have called like the, the, the Olympic judges in your head or the committee in your head, where I felt like I was— any move I was making, I was hearing their voices of judgment. And all of a sudden, one day I'm like, there's actually not— there, there are no judges. And, and hard for my ego to hear. I was like, I don't think people are thinking about what I'm doing as much as I think they're thinking about it. So that was incredibly freeing. Uh, and I heard Paul Simon, the singer, uh, say this once. He told a story, uh, I heard him speaking and somebody asked, you know, so you're Paul Simon, this is only about 7, 8 years ago, your place in rock history is set. What's it like to write music now? And he goes, oh, I'm not there in my head. He goes, but this is how it happens. I'll write a song and then the voices in my head, the critics in my head, will kick in and they say, you know what, this sucks, you don't know how to do this, uh, this is the worst thing you've ever written. He goes, so I sit with that for a minute and then I look, you know, then I have a conversation with those critics in my head and I I ask them, what have you done lately? And then I move on. So, you know, you do have to— there is a fine line between critically thinking and thinking something through and then letting the, the, the judges who don't exist, the panel, the other people who are in your head judging you, realizing they don't exist.

There are so many clients in a therapeutic setting that I help them realize that the they.

Yeah.

Either A doesn't exist. And I had this a few weeks ago with someone and we were walking through and we realized that the they that they were talking about was someone— they're in their 40s— it was someone from when they were 17 years old, their senior year of high school that they haven't seen since then. And we figured out that's the they that they're holding up their standard against.

Sure.

From a 17-year-old vantage point.

High school stays with you for a very long time, right? You know, you— your family, it's gonna be your family, it's gonna be your high school. Um, you know, he, he's on my board though, he doesn't know it, uh, but Bruce Springsteen as, um, as an advisor, you know, his whole biography is really talking about, uh, he has a point where he says, you know, a rock star, any performer has to come from a life of turmoil. There's got to be something that makes you want to go up on stage and, and share who you are. He goes, and that's a fire. But if you can focus that fire on one thing and jump on it, that's how you get to be Bruce Springsteen. He goes, but most of the time that fire and energy can catch you on fire, so you got to be really careful. And I would say even myself, we were referring to— there's other programs like mine. Part of the judgment in my head was, if I fail, these other programs be like, yeah, look, they can't— he can't do what we're doing. And it works for a while. You feed off that energy. It's what keeps you going at 3 in the morning. It's what makes you triple-check things when you're tired. It gets you going. But at some point, it doesn't work for you anymore. You just become— we'll bring in other musicians— you become the angry young man from Billy Joel's song. You know, and you become anachronistic, you become boring, useless, you're just angry. The anger and the 'I'm going to show you' works really well the first couple years, but once you have sort of made it, it's not a good look on you just to react in anger.

Well, it's such an interesting— as a pivot point in the conversation, that just sums up the world of politics that we're living in. That there's anger and there's suffering and there's, "I'm more right and I'm going to prove it to you and I'm going to here to prove you wrong because I don't like your model." But that again only goes so far versus what you've created in this program, which astonishes me is that even though you may have your own personal biases, that you still are going out of your way to say, This is how we do it. This is— you have to sit and talk to the other side. And I have this— when I lived in Atlanta in 2001, for a little bit, there's one of the families I'd become incredibly close with there. They're on the other side of the political spectrum with me, but we always have intellectual conversations and they may throw their jabs in and whatever it is, because, you know, we love each other. But it's like, but at the end of the day, we can still talk about like, oh, I understand what you're saying. I'm starting from a different point and a different paradigm and a different perspective. But your system makes sense when you explain it from there. Now, I don't fundamentally agree with that, but it's logical, right? So let's talk a little bit about this because you, because this is teenagers, right? And this was, you started this just as the internet was getting really kicking in. This was pre-Facebook, right?

It was not Facebook yet, I don't think. Right, right. Yeah.

So, so what was that like? Well, Facebook, yeah, there was, there was Facebook was just on campuses. It wasn't, what we know it as now, because it was rated, started off as a college campus thing to—

I was creating this on a Mac Classic still. I was working on a Mac Classic that I could pick up and take from my desk to home. With the clear back?

Was that the one with the big—

No, right before that. That was iMac, I think. But yeah, I could pick it up off my desk, take it home. I was like, this is portable, this is great. But, right, somebody told me the other day, They're like, you actively seek uncomfortable conversations with your program. And I was like, it was so obvious to me that I never really thought about that. But I'm like, yes. So the whole premise of the summer trip, of Ekgaard 36 summer trip, is to engage in the lost art of civil discourse. And so the first 4 days, the teenagers are on the civil rights journey— Atlanta, Montgomery, Birmingham, Memphis, Little Rock. And on the night, that Thursday night, we're preparing them for their first meeting on Friday morning. They're going to meet with Pro-Life Texas. Now, 99.9% of the teenagers on the trip would consider themselves at this point pro-choice, right? So they are going to meet with the other side of the discussion. And we sit them down to not only go over the— we have a framing discussion so that they are have an idea of the, the, the words that are used, what are the concepts, you know, because we'll have teenagers that have worked on campaigns before, and we'll have teenagers on our trip whose parents want them to be more engaged but might not have even known these were issues. So we got to make it work on all levels here. And I don't want a teen showing up to these meetings cold and not knowing what's going on because this is sometimes a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. But I do want to say that what I'm about to talk about, the tips and tools of engaging the uncomfortable conversation, I'm framing it as we talk to teenagers. It works for adults. It's relevant for adults. There's not a huge gap all the time between the teenagers and the adults. When I have adult trips, they're like, I bet we're easier. I was like, no, actually not at all.

You're more, more stuck.

Right. So that Thursday night after we do our, what we call the framing discussion, we talk about the pros and cons. Of the issue of abortion, the language, and they're ready to go with a baseline of knowledge into the meeting. Then I talk to them about how the meeting is gonna work. I said, you know, for the first, let's say it's an hour and a half meeting, hour, hour and a half meeting, the first 20, 25 minutes the person's gonna speak, and they're meeting with the executive director of Pro-Life Texas. This gentleman lives his life as a Christian, according to the Bible. Because it's in the Bible is reason enough for him to live a life that way. And he's been in the pro-life movement his whole life. So he is committed to this. Yeah. So I say to the teenagers, we need to reevaluate or reframe or create a new paradigm over what is success in a discussion. Because in America today, success would be for me to be right. You have to be wrong. And I have to make sure you know you're wrong and ideally create a clip that can go viral on MSNBC or Fox. Right. So I said, throw all of that out the window because we are going to engage in civil discourse. We are going to engage with a person who I don't think there's going to be a 15, 16, 17, 18, 40-year-old person who's going to say something that this person is going to be like, oh, you know what, you're right, let's go allow abortions to happen. So take away the pressure that you're going to have to convince him to change his mind for there to be success. Perhaps success is going to be this is exactly what you said. Can I make a connection? Can I see where they're coming from? And there's a few options at this point. I can buy what they're selling. I can— I don't have to pick up at all what they're putting down. I can reject it wholly, and that means I can then go back to my beliefs and be like, yeah, I'm, I'm okay with where I'm thinking. Or can I tweak a little bit and say that made some sense? I might not believe this 100% anymore, But this I may integrate in and let it percolate for a while, right? But the other part is, it is okay to hear another side. It does not devalue your opinions to engage and let somebody keep their opinions. Because we talked about this, at the end of the day, what difference does it make to me if— Jason Wasser, if you think a different way, okay. That's what America is all about. That's what a marketplace of ideas is. Now, I do think I'm right about this issue, but you're not following my opinion. Okay, have at it. I think eventually you'll come around. But so we're also not going to engage in hypotheticals. I tell them, you know, there's— stop thinking of the questions. Well, if an alien form came down, was going to blow up the White House unless your wife had an abortion, I was like, thank you for wasting our time. Just now. But also, and this is really important, talk about the issue, not the person. We're not going to make this personal. Right.

Policy over politics.

Yeah, but I mean, politics is in there.

Right.

And also, we have to talk to the teenagers, but I think we have to talk to the adult population too. And this is not heard well all the time, but so stick with me for a second. I tell them this is not a politically correct trip because I think PC speech, purity speech eliminates discussion. It stifles debate because we're so scared about our words. We've become so precious about our words. I tell them how you disagree. Well, let me back up. Disagreeing is not rude. How you disagree can be rude. So it's okay to disagree. It's okay at the end of the day to stand up and go, thanks for your time, but I'm not buying it. We're going to agree to disagree. I appreciate you for taking time. I learned some things. I learned things I'm not going to carry on with, but thank you. So that then all of a sudden it's a human connection. And can you hate that person? Or can it be I just don't agree with his ideas? And so there's a— there's just a great story. One of the high-tension meetings in our summer trip is with a gentleman named Jim, who he has worked his whole life, political life, leading up to the marriage equality fight. And he's anti-marriage equality. He led the campaign in Colorado. Against marriage equality. So this is a generational issue. He'll even admit his kids have no problem with marriage equality. The conservative right kids on our trip have no problem with marriage equality. And so he knows he's coming into a discussion, but he's also a professional speaker. He's a radio show host. He's, he's done all of this, right? So I am throwing kids, and this is only a week, uh, about 10 days into the trip. I'm throwing these kids in, and I will say, to the team's credits, I have had openly, uh, gay kids on the trip who not one of them has asked not to go to the meeting, which in today's standard is huge. Yeah. Wow. One we had to have a discussion with and said to me, I'm very uncomfortable with this. I'm like, you should be. He is going against who you are as a person. And she was like, I don't know if I can sit there. I was like, you need to sit there. I was like, but listen to this. You've got— however many kids were on the trip— you have a community right here that has your back. You're friends with everybody, right? She said, yeah. I was like, so don't let him define you. You have a strong sense of who you are. Right. So sit there. And she did. She actually even engaged in the question. I've had an openly gay young man ask his question by starting— this was powerful— he's like, hi, my name is David and I am openly gay and I appreciate that you don't hate me. And I have a question. And Jim's like, I don't hate you. I just want to talk with you. And it was a powerful piece to be at because people would argue maybe Jim does. I don't know. He doesn't present it as.. But the powerful story was this. There was at the end of one of his discussions— well, there's two actually powerful stories. At the end of one of his discussions, one of the participants raises her hand and said, Jim, there is nothing I agree with you about. And actually, there's nothing about you I like. Now, that's already a little harsh there, but it slipped out. But Jim is also— I know Jim is a professional. I know he can defend himself. And Jim said to her, "Really? There's nothing about me you like?" And she looked him up and down. She goes, "Well, Jim, I like your shoes." And he said, "OK. If you— if I could buy these shoes and you like them, can I be completely horrible?" She goes, "No, you have good taste in shoes." He goes, "Great. Let's start our connection there." And then the other one is this. After one of the discussions, at the end of every day, we have what we call a wrap-up discussion. And we meet Jim in Colorado Springs, Colorado, which is also home to one of the most beautiful rock formations ever, the Garden of the Gods, the aptly titled Garden of the Gods. So I take them to Garden of the Gods, we climb up into the mountains and onto some of the rocks and have our debrief there because I'm like, you guys need to exhale and, and take in all this. And we're going around, and this had to be in 2000 2009, I think, there was a young man. It got to his turn and he said, you know, this is a hard— this was a hard meeting for me and I need to do something that I know I've needed to do but haven't done. And he came out and said, I'm a— I am gay. Now, Jason, I'm 53. So back then, mid to late 40s, grew up in the '70s and '80s. Uh, so to me, I hear it and I'm like, wow, this is amazing. The even more amazing part is the next teenager looked at the kid and goes, that's great, here's what I thought of the day. Just kept going.

And I went nonchalant, right?

Yeah, everybody hear what just happened? But, uh, yeah, uh, so, you know, it's, it's, it's taking down the temperature. It's really trying to take down the temperature altogether.

Yeah, I just had a friend of mine from my business community that I've been involved in the last 3 years. He's a wonderful person. He's a successful business person. He's an incredible family man. I have such respect for him. And he started posting some stuff over the last, you know, number of weeks on certain stuff going on. And I responded something because he quoted something about Florida. And I responded since I live here and he talked about our county, Broward County, and I wrote back to him. I said, "I don't know where you're getting your information, but what you just posted was not true. I actually have direct information from someone in the medical field in Broward County who, you know, is very high up and who I very much respect." And then I wrote back a minute later, I said, "By the way, any further conversation coming from this post, I want to just put it out there first how much I respect you as a human, as a dad, as a husband, and as a business owner." before we continue the next things.

Yeah, right. It's— yeah, yeah.

And, and I haven't done that before because I've gotten— we've all gotten ourselves stuck in stupid Facebook posts because no one's ever won an argument on Facebook, right? But like, I got pulled into it about a month and a half ago, 2 months ago, and it was just like so stupid and it ruined my entire day. So I made the commitment, and I talk about this a lot in my classes and what I'm doing with my clients, I'm like You can pull yourself into a bad feeling place and it's not the other person's fault about any issue that might be on the other side of the coin. Sure, it's on you to be responsible for how you feel about that, not them.

Facebook brings up a whole nother ball of wax. I, uh, I view Facebook— it's a tool. Look, I enjoy it. Uh, anybody that tells me they're going to friend me on Facebook or send me a request, I'm like, I'm just warning you This could get like— I tell all my friends, I get it if you drop me. Like, I will get into it. I actively will post what I'm thinking. And it's a, you know, somebody said to me the other day, they're like, I love the dance you do because I'm very clear what I think. And yet I run a program. It's all about both sides, both sides. I think there's integrity that has to be there. I think that my friends on the right know that I will allow them to have the space to push back. And that's why I can get away with posting my true opinions there. But, you know, Facebook brings up the whole idea, which you're— the few points I make on how to be comfortable in an uncomfortable conversation, right? You know, a few things. One, keep breathing. You know, you gotta breathe. Secondly, is present your views and have a point of view, by the way, you know, but allow the other person you are addressing to present their point of views because that's what you want to question and push back on, not the person. You know, most of these people are my friends. I'll admit some of the people I engage with are not. I'm shocked they were, and I'm shocked where this has gone. And that's where I feel bad. I, I love the back and forth. I have friends who are like, but how can you stand the pushback? I'm like, well, if I'm putting it out there, that's my expectation, right? Is that it's going to happen?

Equal and opposite reaction, right?

Right. Isn't that what we want? I don't need you to agree with me for us to be friends. But what I do find sometimes in what is unique about now is it, it has crossed over into humanity issues too. And I'm shocked with some of the people I thought I knew, but they're— they very equally could be shocked by me. But so it's really reflect on— I want to reflect on the points and statements they're making. Once again, not the person. Um, and everything doesn't have to end in agreement, right? How boring would that be? Look, I feel I'm right, but I get that other people might not, and I do allow I could be wrong. Yeah. And yeah, right now, I, you know, it works for me right now.

But that's the biggest gift to be able to say that, right? Like, and I especially, you know, I've been giving since the pandemic. I started off teaching right before the pandemic started for a nonprofit young professional organization. I was doing like a Wednesday night group learning. And it was on psychology and leadership in the weekly Torah reading, in the weekly Bible reading. And then it evolved. And then once, you know, the pandemic kicked in, I could do it on Zoom. Now I have people as far as Brazil and all the way up in North and New York that are attending this from all different circles in the Jewish community. And then I'm starting to do— I have these two other classes I'm doing for like, you know, relationship and life stuff and unpackaging your stuff stuff. And I always say like, If you're here, I want to let you know that I'm aware that this is my forum.

Yeah.

However, I also reserve the right to be 100% wrong, and I'm honored that you continue to show up, and I also want you to give me your feedback and your opinion and disagree with me if you disagree because I want this to be a space where it creates that environment to do that. Yes, it's my class. Yes, it's— but it's not a lecture, it's an engagement. One last week I posted, there was something that was posted and a buddy of mine who's a chiropractor up in Pennsylvania posted something and the response was so like shocking. That was like, I was thrown off by it. And my sister reached out to me. She's like, who the hell is so-and-so? And I'm like, I don't like, I'm like, he's such a nice person. He's such a gracious, like, I'm like, I don't know. So I went back and I saw other people posted on that thing. And I'm like, and I saw someone like kind of jumped on him. And I'm like, hey guys, if you're going to continue this dialogue, I want you both to know that I know both of you personally, and I think both of you are incredible people who I very much respect. Whatever's going to happen from here, start from that place, right? And like, it was kind of like— and then what happened, the response that he wrote back with all the research from his perspective was, this is just that, it was data, it wasn't philosophy. I'm like, okay, good. Now we're back to normal. Now we can have that, right? But I've been really conscious of that mindset of, right, that whole namaste. What's the phrase namaste mean, right? The soul of me honors the soul of you. Or as your shirt says, for people who are not on the video, they're listening to the audio, it says stay human, right? The human in me acknowledges. Michael Franti, right, who's incredible. I think he's one of the musicians that I've probably seen the most live.

Well, you walk away feeling good.

It's cheaper than peace, right?

It's world peace.

Him and Idan Raichel, the Israeli musician, those are the two music that like at that level bring that peace.

Yeah, Michael Frante would be somebody I would try and get the group to see if we cross paths there. Um, but, uh, Jason, yes. And that, you know, I think with Facebook or social media, you can set some ground rules. And I think people understand that mine is like you're coming into the cage, you're coming into the debate. And you gotta, you gotta take care of yourself. I'm not going to defend either side. And sometimes I'll drop, I'll do the post, and then check out. I don't even ever come back to it. But people will go at it. And, you know, one of the things I like is that when my friends who disagree with me come into it, that I don't have to respond. I have other friends who think like I do respond, and I'm like, how powerful. They see other people think this too. They know I do. But also, I, I tell all my friends, I was like, jump in. I encourage you to jump in, but you got to be able to swim. This is not the shallow end of the pool here. Uh, we're not going to feel good, and this isn't correct. And I've actually— the— some of the only times I edit is when people start to put in the PC approach to it. And I'm like, no, no, no, this is a free forum here. Like, it's okay that this is happening, um, and the pushback. And you got to put on, you know, your big person pants here. Like, it's, it's going to be— it's going to get rough. It's, it's going to be rough on an ideological level, not a personal level. And I have deleted more of my friends' comments than people I disagree with because, uh, you know, it's starting to get personal. Now, my friends who agree with me, I mean, it's well known they, they can't fathom and, and just dislike that I have, you know, this continued friendship. I mean, Jim and I agree on absolutely nothing except the idea of engaging in this debate is important. So much so that, like, If I call him just to set up that meeting in the summer, it'll be an hour and a half, 2-hour talk. But one time we were talking, I was like, Jim, I got to go, football's on. He goes, I love football. I'm going to watch football too. I was like, Jim, we agree. He's like, yes, we do. He goes, I'm going to watch my Colts. I'm like, Jim, I'm a Vikings fan. They're playing the Colts today. So we couldn't even agree with that. But I will say a friend of mine, actually a mutual friend of ours, I had an election party in '16. And, you know, it was— if you were on the Hillary side, it was going well for a little while. And I think everybody who was on Hillary's side has a 9:15 to 9:30 East Coast time story about when all of a sudden they realized this might not go. Right. And Jim was somebody I called. And our mutual friend Debbie was sitting near me. And she listened on it. And, and I just remember saying to Jim, I was like, Jim, I don't think this is going to go the way I want it to go tonight. I need to know from you that you are okay with the way this is going, because I, while I disagree with everything about you, I seen your humanity and the fact that we're still friends, that it Lessens it a little bit. It gives me a little bit of hope. Now, you know, 3 and a half years down the road, uh, that man—

different conversation.

Um, but, but, uh, I remember hanging up and our friend going, that may be the most hopeful thing I heard. But it's humanizing. It's— we can fight all day long, but at the end of the day, okay, that's part of what makes our friendship.

And I think that's the big beautiful takeaway with right now. What we, right, this pandemic is polarizing. Everything is going to become even more polarizing, right? This is the direction, unfortunately. So how important these type of conversations, and thank God for technology, but it could be a tool or it could be a detractor. And I know over the years, I know we have just a little bit of time left, but over the years, there's been some really important people. I mean, everybody that you've met is important, but I know one of those people just recently passed. Last week. So I know that I'd love to hear a story or two about that.

About Congressman John Lewis, who is my congressman. As I posted, in this day when the vast majority of Americans are disenchanted, as a nice word, about politicians, how amazing it was to be proud of who you could vote for, who represented you. Or as my mom said the other day, she said, you know, we get these notes, write your congressman about this. I knew I never had to. Because he was always on the side I viewed. So Congressman Lewis would meet with all of my groups every summer. He would meet with my groups. There's just a few just great stories. I mean, here's a gentleman who, before he even became a congressional leader, already lived a legendary life, was a hero to many already, and then continued with zero ego. I mean, just so little of an ego. Now, I will say this. What people are missing is he was a shrewd politician. He could be brutal. I mean, he jumped into a race in Atlanta against another African American man, Julian Bond, when John Lewis was told not to do it, and he didn't care. He pushed back against the established Black community and jumped in. So, I mean, he's not a total saint. I mean, he's a politician. You know, you got to be able to do this. A few just humanizing great stories. One was, uh, the kids were in his office and some of them have to sit on the floor, and one of the kids had to ask a question from the floor. And he's already in his 70s at this point, and he gets down on his knees, and so he's face to face. And I'm like, good Lord. But also, a lot of the people who take groups to see him, we share this common story in that, uh, it was always great to watch the panic on his staff's face because he was running late talking to us. His staff needed to get him somewhere else, but Congressman Lewis knew this is where the work was happening, was sharing his story and talking. And there was a time in the buildup to the 2008 election where Reverend Jesse Jackson said something. He thought he was off camera and off mic, but the mic caught him. It was a hot mic still. Where he said something about he was angry at then-Senator Obama running for president. He said, we need to castrate him, just an offhand comment. And one of the teens asked Congressman Lewis about this. And I'm expecting a political answer, just a vanilla or parve answer. Congressman Lewis's face scrunches up. He goes, I don't know what we're going to do with Jesse. You know, And he then went on to talk about issues they had with Jesse in the movement. And one of the kids said, "I cannot believe I'm getting a nonpolitical answer here." But that's what he would do. I mean, he was the real deal there. And the other funny story is when I take groups on the civil rights story trip, we go to Selma. And we meet with a woman who was 11 years old. Her name is Joanne Bland. And she was 11 years old when she was beaten on this bridge on Bloody Sunday. The march that John Lewis led. And when she lines the students up, she lines them two by two as they did. And the two teens are two students in the front. She said, you're John Lewis and you're Hosea Williams. Right. So this is on Saturday afternoon. On Sunday morning, we're back in Atlanta. And I take my groups to church services at Ebenezer Baptist Church, the home of Dr. King and the King family. And we get off the bus and John Lewis is walking right by us. So he stops to say hello. And I immediately turned to the group and I'm like, where's John? Who is John Lewis? And the kid raises his hand. I was like, John Lewis, meet John Lewis. And they, they just lost their minds. So he spoke to them for a little bit and then they all walked into church together. But, you know, I think it was way harder than I thought. It hit me harder. And we knew he had cancer. I saw him like 2 weeks before he announced he had cancer. And I gotta say, I mean, it's sort of embarrassing to say, but I mean, he had lost weight. He lost a lot of weight. He had not announced he had cancer. And I said, Congressman, you're looking good. He goes, well, I'm getting in fighting shape. Little I know, I thought he was meaning the election. He also could be meaning the cancer part. So it wasn't a shock, but boy, it hit me harder that he was still getting arrested at 80 years old. You know, I mean, just fighting the fight and realizing that everybody's fight is wrapped up, that we are all connected, which is one of the lessons I try and get across in this on our trips. There is no other, just another human being. And by the way, if we could stop otherizing people with our arguments, with our debates, and realizing I'm just talking to another human being. And if I have one more moment— Please. It's going to be these small conversations that's gonna do it. We often think it's gotta be this big programming. If you're in the white community, it's can you do a Martin Luther King Day program with somebody in the black community? It's gonna take much more than that or else all this would have been solved because those happen all the time. It's one-on-one conversations, once again, Take away the pressure of it being something huge and meaningful. It can be just talking to each other about something you have in common. See the shirt? You see this? It's a Michael Frante shirt. I like Michael Frante. I do too. How can we do this? Because in the '50s, this is how white teenagers crossed the barrier to the Black culture community, by listening to music and realizing Elvis is just playing Black music. All he's doing— and half the Black community, music community, hates Elvis because he stole their music. Half love him, he elevated their music to the masses. But once a white kid who's been taught that the Black kid is the other, the less than, the not to be dealt with— if you're in a record store, we have to explain what that is to teenagers. But if you're in the record store and you're listening, because you used to be able to listen to the albums before you bought them, and you see a Black kid who's the other listening to the same song, and you can connect on that song, and you can talk about the fact that your parents both hate this music, which means you love this music, that kid becomes another human being, and it's over. I mean, once you become another, how much harm can you do to each other? And so if we could just cool the temperature and realize we're in this together, that my humanity is tied up into yours, and yours to mine, we can disagree, but we're not going to dehumanize each other.

That's massive. It's massive. So I want people to get more information from you. So I know your website is etgar.org, E-T-G-A-R dot org. And obviously you can be found on Facebook. But for anybody out there who's interested in, you know, once this, hopefully this pandemic is over, the teen trips will be back on, but you are still doing some activities social distancing now, correct?

So we have pivoted in a few ways. So once again, when this all goes away, please come on the road. Our summer trip is for teenagers. Our civil rights trips is for whoever, family reunions, people, adults, people who are way older than teenagers come on the trip. And that's powerful too, seeing people reclaim some of their life who may have been involved in the movement. But also right now during the pandemic, We are doing social distance trips to Montgomery, Birmingham, Selma, but also I online am doing talks about how to be comfortable in uncomfortable conversations. And also for the home community, my Jewish community, we're doing talks about the Black-Jewish connection, the myth versus the reality of the communities being together in the civil rights movement. And now what's happening. And then the power of engagement here, if I have a second to tell another quick story of Selma. I was leading a group of adults and on Saturday morning, I'm not that great at small talk. So I was trying to make it, I was trying to work some small talk in and asked a gentleman, this is an adult trip, Saturday morning we're on our way to Selma. And this is the power of travel. I said to him, so you looking forward to the day? And he looked at me and said, no, not really. I was like, ah, I'm trying the small talk thing and I picked the one person who's hating the trip. And I'm the type, if I have 100 people there and 99 are transfixed on what I'm saying, but one person isn't, I'm focused on that one person the whole time. I'm like, I suck at this. This trip sucks. But so I said to him, I was like, really? He goes, well, let me explain. He goes, I was young and I had an uncle who lived in Selma. And when I was young, when I was like 14, we would visit him all the time. And he said, internally, I knew I was gay but had not come out. This is the '60s. It was dangerous, or maybe even early '70s. But his uncle was a— he would stock jukeboxes. So he had records in the basement all the time. When I would visit my uncle in Selma, I could go get any records I wanted out of the basement. He goes, so one day I'm snooping around and I open one of his drawers and there's a Klan robe and hood in there. He said, I knew that they didn't like who I was fearing I was going to become. A gay man. He goes, so I ran upstairs and told my mom we have to leave. And we never went back to Selma. I never saw my uncle again. He goes, so this morning, I am on your trip to reclaim Selma for me. And Jason Wasser, 17 years of doing this, to watch him as a— I think he was in his late 50s, 60s— to walk across that bridge He's crying. I've heard his story. I'm losing it. And we get to the other side and he's like, thank you, my— I can fill this hole and have peace. I was like, thank you for— this is what it's all about, is just creating the humanity in each other and in ourselves.

It's incredible, right? And little did you know you'd also be a therapist.

Yeah. Yeah. Therapy on the road. Is it— travels it.

It's incredible. It really is. When you said the lost art of civil discourse, that's really so beautifully said. That ties it all together. So those of you out there, please, please check out Billy's, you know, work and everything he's doing. And if you— not just if you— if a trip isn't for you, but you want to like support what he's doing, I know there's, you know, there's probably scholarships to help other people participate in these programs.

Tax deductible.

Right. And tax deductible, right? Exactly. And I remember like just going back to like when we met around that time, like I remember like the biggest issue politically that we were dealing with, it's just hitting me on that type of level, was the Jonathan Pollard stuff.

Yeah.

It was like, that was like the big thing in like the mid-'90s, right? '94, '95, '96, around that time. And I remember getting the reason how I first got politically active was on that issue. With the rabbi from my synagogue and from another synagogue where we went down and we protested in front of the courthouse in Miami. We built a fake jail cell.

Yeah.

And we sat in it and did our protest. And I remember, like, we almost got arrested. Like, that was like, I'm a 15-year-old kid from Miami, like, almost getting arrested for political, you know, the cops came and we like, you know, that was like, holy crap. And then to see, you know, where this whole world opens up to you of like, oh, there's stuff to fight for, there's stuff to take a stance on, there's stuff that you can be passionate about and be more human about. And going back to those moments that it does take people like you to open people's eyes and to see that there is stuff that we can have influence and change. So first of all, congratulations for creating something really beautiful and powerful.

Thank you.

Thank you. And again, people for those out there, You know, if you want to track down Billy, again, it's etgar.org, E-T-G-A-R dot org, and you can easily find him on Facebook, and looking forward to connecting with you again soon.

Jason, this was great. Thank you so much.

All right.