Keith and Jess on Attachment Styles

Hey everybody, uh, welcome to Way Through. Uh, I'm Keith McPherson and I'm here with one of the other coaches, Jess Hendrick, and we're gonna be speaking today all about attachment styles and maybe even flipping it on its head. So welcome, Jess. How are you doing today?

I'm so good. Thank you so much for having me. It's always fun to connect with you.

I love these coach jams that we have. It's great. Um, attachment styles, just basically people that don't know what the heck this is, maybe we could just do sort of a traditional debrief or chat about like what traditionally are attachment styles, just so we can start there.

Great. Love that. Yeah. So attachment styles, the way that I explain it is that basically it's how you relate, right? And they, they become the way that we relate as adults, but they're, they're set when we're little children. Based on how our parents related to us or how we experienced our parents relating to us. So the 3 main ones are securely attached, which is kind of the Mac Daddy. Like, if you're securely attached, your relationships go a lot more smoothly. So God bless you if that's your experience.

Everybody wants to be securely attached.

Securely attached is like winning the lottery. Totally. And then there's, there's anxiously attached and then there's avoidant. So we're anxious or avoidant. So basically I use the example of like if you want to know which, which attachment style you are when you feel distressed, what is your coping mechanism? So when, when you feel distressed, let's say like a relation, you're in a relationship and somebody pulls away. Do you get really anxious? Do you want to cling? Do you want to go towards them? Then chances are you're more anxiously wired. Or another example could be like if there's conflict and you feel like you just want to push the person away and you want to get as far away as possible, then that's more avoidant. My hand just literally disappeared like that.

So that's kind of like an avoidant attachment part.

At least that's what happens with an avoidant. Like that. They go—

that is the perfect metaphor.

That's perfect. And securely attached people are more unfazed, right? But it's not really this black and white thing. So I think what happens is— well, did you want to add anything in there before we go?

I was just going to say, I think there is also a fourth type that's sort of a mix of all of them. If I understand that right.

Disorganized.

Disorganized. That's you. I think I tend to lean towards more of the anxious, although I really— and I'm not just saying this because I won the lottery, but I feel like with a lot of work, I'm moving a lot more into the secure space. And I have to say, it is pretty great.

Oh yeah. I mean, I— and that's what I'm saying, like, we can, we can rewire the way that we connect and relate and have more of a secure experience more often, which is awesome. So that's so great. I'm so happy that you're having that experience because it really is such a game changer.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So, um, curious about attachment styles just in terms of why do we have them. You were kind of alluding to it a little bit before about, um, how we were raised and our parents and the relationship, but could you share a little bit more about how do we form these attachment styles?

Like, how do they get Yeah, good question. So basically, not only attachment styles, but just relationships in general, we, we decide when we're very little, we decide our beliefs in the world and what love is and what relationships are by the primary caregivers in our lives or our parents or whoever is mostly caring for us. Right. So it could be a nanny, it could be a babysitter, could be a parent, could be all of the above, could be a teacher. But basically, we learn, we try to figure out how to be safe in the world. So if you think about if you take a little kid and drop them off, you know, at daycare, at nursery school or something, you can identify the attachment style of the child. You know, this is, again, generally speaking, because certain developmental milestones, it's important for these things to happen. But If you drop off a kid that's securely attached, they'll just be like, okay, bye mom, bye dad, see you later, and they walk right in and they're cool and they're unfazed. You drop off a kid that's anxious, they're going to be clinging to you, not wanting you to leave, crying, all the things. When you drop off a kid that's avoidant, they're just going to stroll on in and not even notice that you left.

Totally.

So, um, so basically we are wired to attach to our caregivers for survival, right? So But if we determine in our nervous system that they're, that they're not going to meet our needs, or— and it's interesting because it might just be a certain percentage of the time, right? One of my friends is such an amazing mom, and she did a lot of research on this because she does this work in the world. And she's like, okay, how do I do the best I can to make sure my child is securely attached and feels safe in the world? And by the way, none of our parents had this information, so God help us.

Yeah, like, it's just amazing to think, like, our parents, how they navigated without knowing any of this background. It's insane.

Not know any of it. And that's why a lot of us have different attachment styles happening. But they didn't know what they didn't know, and they couldn't. So we don't want to condemn them or blame them or shame them because they did the best they could with what they had and what they knew and all— and a lot of other factors that we could talk about. But But my girlfriend, she, she read this whole thing about it, did a lot of research, and she found that if your child feels attuned to and the needs are met 60% of the time, they will be securely attached. 60%. So it's not like 100%, it's 60. She was saying, she's like, I think I get like around a 90, 95%. So I think she's doing pretty amazing, right? Incredible. Yeah. So, but you basically, you kind of check in with like, and if you don't feel your needs are getting met, then we develop these coping strategies to try to get our needs met. So if we feel like we're not getting enough attention or we need something, then we might get big and loud and try to get our parents' attention, which is what my pattern was when I was little. And then that transferred into my adult relationships, which was not ideal. And thankfully now it's shifted because of the work that I did around that, like you with the secure attachment. Yeah. But yeah. And then the more avoidant child might just decide, okay, well, my needs aren't going to get met, so I'm just going to go over here and have to handle everything on my own. The other thing that's really interesting about the anxious and avoidant is that anxiously attached people regulate by going toward, so by leaning into the connection, and avoidant people regulate by leaning out.

So just to pause there for a minute, maybe some examples of that, especially when it comes to like relationships and breakups, how these play out.

Because, right.

Yeah. It's so fascinating.

I love breakups. Oh, and just check a little bit. The disorganized is a combination of the anxious and avoidant together. So yeah, which is interesting, right? Because for so many years I thought I was anxious. I'm anxious, period. End of story. I had this trauma therapist say to me, well, what, you might be a little avoidant. I was like, no, I'm not, lady. I am anxious. Like, you don't know what you're talking about. And the more that I've healed, the more I now see the avoidant side can come up sometimes too. So interesting, very interesting. Um, yeah, but yeah, so with breakups, well, I'd say generally speaking, well, I'm not even going to use gender here, but like generally that the person who's more anxious will want to lean in, will want to talk it through and try to find a way so that you can make everything work out. And they feel just totally dysregulated and in panic by the separation. Right.

Example, let me just drop in here for an example from an expert avoidant recovering. I was in a relationship a few relationships ago where we had this pattern going where every morning I would get this text from my girlfriend at the time and she'd be, how are you doing? Good. And we'd talk for a little bit and then it just stopped one day. It was just like gone. And I was losing it. I was like, oh my gosh, did I do something wrong? What's wrong with me? Is everything okay? And I started reaching out, which ironically, because I was dating her and she was more of an avoidant type, it was just like, she just pushed away. So it was very interesting just in this space of like avoidant and anxious, how they kind of like meet each other. And as the anxious one's like leaning in, like I was at the time, it just pushed her completely away.

Yeah. And it's so— it's really, really tough because we're basically in survival mode, right? So if you're going through a breakup, you're already kicked into fight or flight. You're not ready. So then whatever the coping pattern is, is going to come up full force, right? Whether it's anxious, avoidant, or a combination of the two. But it's gonna show up full force. And it can be almost impossible to try to navigate it if you don't have the tools. Like if you don't know, number one, what's even happening. Like for me, I didn't even know what was happening. I was just like, am I a crazy person? Like what is wrong right now? You know, because my whole body would be— I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep. All I wanted to do was call the person to try to, you know, make it— talk it through for the 3 millionth time. And find some sort of way that we don't have to separate, right? Yeah. And the avoidant person— both are dysregulated, which I did not realize for the longest time. Both are dysregulated, but the coping for the coming back to regulation is opposite. So if you know, if you're dating someone who's maybe more on the avoidant side, you're more on the anxious side, if you can learn to hold yourself as they kind of lean out a little and allow them the space to lean back in, That is a bit of the dance, right? And then if you're the avoidant person, you learn how to hold yourself and lean in a little so that you can dance with each other. And so that's what I do with couples because this is very, very common, like this dance that we do, because it also affects the polarity, which is the attraction. So we're not really going to be attracting somebody who has that same energy that we have. In that way. So for me, like, I know I'm going to be more drawn to an avoidant, more avoidant person, but my prayer is someone who's done enough work that they're like, okay, I know what's happening. Let me do my work. Let me lean in. And I can also hold myself and give them space, you know? So it's a dance.

Yeah, completely. I just, I'm curious too about the avoidant attachment styles because I've heard that there's kind of a couple different types, like subtypes, like there's fearful avoidant, and then there's also dismissive avoidant, from what I understand. And they're quite different, but they have sort of a similar pattern where they tend to push away and dismiss. Yeah. How would you describe those two?

Well, this is where I feel like it gets a little bit convoluted, honestly. But because you can get, you can get very swept up in like diagnosing the other person and what they're doing or not doing, and they must be this, and oh my gosh, look, they have all the things of the checklist of this kind of person. But about a year or so ago, I heard someone describe it in this way, and I really like this, of like, beyond attachment styles, what is the way that you show up, right? Like, what's your owner's manual? So what makes you tick? What supports you in relationship? What makes you distressed in relationship? What are— what's like a fight that you've had, you know, in every relationship, right? Like, how do you go beyond? Because I think the attachment styles really oversimplify this stuff, and also avoidance, get really villainized. So it's like, oh, they're avoidant, oh, avoidant, oh, blah. And like, I mean, I've been that person where I'm like, oh my God, avoidant. But it's— I mean, now that I've had the experience of being on that side of things, this is literally people trying to survive because they're getting triggered into their pain. Totally. So nobody's good, bad, right, wrong. It's just, okay, what, what shows up for me and what shows up for my partner? And are we willing to actually do the work of self-regulation? These strategies, whether it's fearful or dismissive or anxious or whatever, so that they're, you know, taken care of more so that we can actually meet in a place of regulation, because then we can have some movement.

Right, right, consciously.

Yeah.

I was gonna say something I find really interesting is that whether you're anxious attached or avoidant attached or disorganized attached, any of those attachment styles, it's interesting that they're all underneath the surface, managing the same fear, like it's like the same fear, and it's just different ways of trying to cope with that fear of like being abandoned, being alone, not being enough. And it's interesting, I think from what I've learned of it, the avoidant attachment styles, um, they tend to like almost push away before they get to the point of being hurt, where more of the anxious style is like they're hurt and they're like, is something wrong? So it's like, it's just different phases of managing the same fear. But at the end of the day, I think what it really comes down to is like realizing that we're actually safe in this present moment. Like, we are safe. And whatever's unfolding with my partner, it's like, can I show up for myself first and really hold the container for whatever's going on for my partner? So, you know, if my partner's like distant for a couple of days, and I want to just distinguish not ghosting me on purpose to play some crazy game toxically, But if my partner's like actually distant for a few days, am I okay with just allowing them to have that space that they most likely need versus going to a place as an anxious attached person? Oh my God, what's wrong? Are they okay? Are they ever going to come back? And I would imagine the same thing with the avoidant too, where it's like, as opposed to just pushing away, going like, screw off, like, I'll see you later. I don't want to get hurt. It's like, can you lean into that vulnerability? And slowly open your heart up to speaking what's true and trusting your partner really is holding the container for you and vice versa. I love that dance.

Right. And it's a, it's a big ask because first we just, to even have the awareness that this is what's happening, it's not super common. So what is more common is I feel something inside of myself. I don't really know what it is, but now I'm feeling like I need to cling, or now I'm feeling like I need to push away, or there's something that this person outside here is doing to me that is creating this in me. And so with the more avoidant, they'll push the person away. They feel dysregulated, and they'll think, oh, well, it's because this person is this way, right? So, right, oh, you were, you need, you were too needy, you needed reassurance, you blah blah blah blah. And while maybe that is partially the case. What they don't know is that they're, they're getting knocked off and dysregulated. Something is triggering them that needs attention. And so a lot of people will then leave the relationship, jump out of the relationship, and start to feel better and be like, oh, it must have been the relationship. There we go, I fixed that one. But then they get into another really— it's like you're sitting on the bench, like you're sitting on the bench because you're not having those that closeness, that intimacy that's then triggering the wound that needs attention, right?

Right.

Then you— then they'll get into another relationship or date someone else and the same thing will come up. And eventually they'll realize, wait, who's the common denominator here? Like, this is not just same pattern. Yeah. Right. So, you know, it's interesting, but yeah, it's a level of emotional intelligence that I think would be very helpful for people in relationship because it's so easy to just start pointing finger at what the other person's doing or not doing rather than looking at, okay, what's coming up within me. But you hit the nail on the head because what we need to do, the way out is to work on tending to what comes up for us. And sometimes that is a significant amount of trauma like abandonment trauma, rejection trauma, betrayal trauma. The cocktail of all of those things is coming up. All of the beliefs, like you said, I'm not enough, I'm not worthy. Oh my gosh, this happened again. I can't believe it. I thought this would be different this time. It's really painful. So it's easy to say, oh, yeah, we just need to do this and that intellectually. But the experience that's created in the body— and I relate to this personally— in the body is like, oh my God, I'm going to die, or I want to die because it's so painful. You know, depending on the level of trauma you have. And so also people will say to me like, why? I was only with this person for, you know, X amount of time. Like, why is this hurting me so much? Because it's triggering all of your past wounding. So it doesn't matter. Like, it could— you could be with them for a week. You could go on one date. You could be together 20 years, but it could trigger the same stuff.

So totally. I love that you're naming that. And As you're saying that, another thing too that I've been often reflecting on around this is the fact that, like, this is maybe the one silver lining to a breakup of a relationship or being in a pattern where it's consistently happening that you're attracting the same person and you're not getting anywhere, is it's all pointing us inward towards ourself for our own healing and growth. And like you said, it's not easy. Like it's painful to sit with, it's painful to sit with the traumas that we don't even realize sometimes are there. But the fact that it's coming up for us to look at, if we're willing to be with it, um, the endgame becomes like way more healing and moving towards a more secure attachment style where you're not as affected by the outside, so to speak, of a partner or anything for that matter, where I'm safe and secure. And as I'm doing my healing, I become more and more into that space of, you know, I'm safe and secure. And, and you also start seeing it in other people too. And there's like a compassion I find that ends up happening where you can almost sense, because you've been there, you know, you're— this person's going through the same thing you went through. And it— because we're at the end of the day all mirroring each other too. It's so dynamic, as you know.

Yeah, it's nuanced and it's dynamic, which is why with the attachment styles, I'm like, okay, it's information, but there's a lot of this pocket psychology out there that isn't the most supportive. You know, like my clients will send me things and they're like, what do you think? Do you think this is true or not? And I'm like, does this feel supportive for you? Like watching this video? Because there's so much out there, but your inner being, your, your intuition knows what's supportive for you and what isn't. Um, sometimes, you know, we're looking for ways to prove our beliefs right, right? We're like, oh yeah, something must really be wrong with me. Like, this video that says that I was too needy must be right, and there's something really wrong with me, and I'm doomed to be alone for all eternity, right? Like, we can find evidence of these stories really, really easily. But you're right. I mean, and when you're going through a breakup, like, you might just not even want to hear this message because you're like You don't— you're in pain, you're trying to get through each moment potentially. And then here are these people like, well, it helps you get closer to yourself. You're like, yeah, okay, I don't care, you know. But it is true. And it's like the pain that we feel, I mean, as humans— my mentor said this to me a long time ago, and it's so helpful, especially for highly sensitive people out there. We, we are going to experience pain. We are going to experience heartache, heartbreak. That is what this experience is. There is no way to be human with an open heart and not experience the love, the beauty, the connection, and not experience the pain, the grief, the heartache. It's just not possible. And so understanding that's part of the human experience and that nothing is actually wrong even if it feels like it's really wrong. But what you said, the way out, like my new thing, and I think I stole this from somebody, but like, like the only way out is through and the only way through is inward, you know, like in those dark nights. And I've had many like where you're like, oh my God, this is so painful. Like, I would rather just not even have this experience ever at all. Like, I'd rather just not even be in this human body and feeling this pain. Those experiences can, can be a direct access point to the pain that you have that needs your attention and your love. And there are ways to get support, right? Like, you do not have to do this alone. I would not suggest it, and I don't think it's possible. So, you know, get yourself some support. There are resources available, like, and, and surround yourself with support. And then also be really kind and loving and compassionate to yourself because what's coming up for you— like one of my other clients, the one I just saw before we jumped on this call, he was like, you know what I really want? He's like, I just want to feel like I matter. But he said, but I want to throw up when I say that because it makes me sick because it sounds like I'm not a man. And I was like, that is so interesting, that story, because I think everybody wants to feel like they matter. But yes, he just felt like so— it was so much judgment on himself saying that that's what he really needs. I mean, we're all human. We're— none of us are exempt from this human experience.

As well, just as you're saying that, Jess, I'm like thinking about how important it is, especially navigating like your way through a breakup. Um, and attachment styles aside, but whether you want to incorporate that information or not, It's like this idea of slowing down too and being really gentle with yourself, which I know I can just speak as a man, is kind of countercultural in a lot of ways to how a lot of us were conditioned, which was, you know, be strong, don't cry. But I think generally speaking, we've all been conditioned that way, you know, speed up, drive for success, do more, be more, get more. Don't slow down, don't feel anything, just feel like you have it all together. And I think this invitation to actually take a breath, to pause, to slow down, to realize we don't have it all together on purpose, and to just be gentle with ourselves and to allow what's coming up. And as you're saying too, like, to seek out support, which is part of why we've created Way Through as well, this community, is to have the support in place and a community that's going through a similar experience so that you can, you know, you're not alone. You're not an island is the idea.