Inside JLC: Context, Purpose, Outcome to Open Meetings (Part 2)

Foreign Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us here at JLC Media. We're here here with two colleagues at jlc, two people that have been once been working with me for a millennia and the other one just started working with me and I'll let them do a very quick intro of who they are and then we'll do a quick little check in. So who'd like to start?

Sure, I'll jump in. Colleen Sullivan and been working with JLC for a while. Really, really looking forward to this topic today and it is connected to some of our other podcasts, so I think everybody will enjoy it.

Hi, my name is Kathy Rode. I've been in education for 15 years and I'm looking forward to this topic as well. Keeping in mind context, purpose and outcomes. And I'm going to learn more about that.

That's great. So those of you that are listening, I'm going to go right into what this, the intent of this particular conversation is and then I'll shift into what's called a backwards design in a moment. So we've already done a little bit on what is context, purpose and outcome. Why are we talking, what are we going to understand together and what will each of us do? And prompted by our client base, they said, could you show us a way in which it would be easier for us to figure out how to create that CPO context, purpose and outcome for each agenda item? So today we're going to actually have a couple of examples of agenda items and then we'll build that backwards design process so we get there. Those of you in education, this follows all the work done by, by a series of people on understanding by design. And we'll be able to like transfer that methodology of creating a meeting agenda item into the world of business, into the world of military government. Really doesn't matter, doesn't matter where you are or what role you're in inside of any business. This particular process enables you to have more effective conversation and subsequently a more effective meeting. So we are going to today show you a method on how to design an agenda item so we commonly understand that method so that each of you can create your own design. Colleen, what are you hearing? What are you thinking?

Yeah, what I'm hearing is that you, we're going to be chatting about a method that each one of us can use, regardless of kind of, you know, where you are in your leadership journey, kind of where you are as far as your profession, what profession you're in. It could be private sector, it could be military, wherever it Happens to be this particular protocol will help you have a more effective meeting. And we're hoping that each person who's listening will be able to take it and transfer it into their daily practice so they can have a more effective meeting. Because I'm pretty sure everybody out there listening is thinking about a meeting they've attended that probably they walked away and went, damn, this is a waste of my time.

Well said. The literature on meetings is unfortunately dismal. Most people hate them. Most people don't know why they're there. And that's a whole nother podcast we should do about who should be in the meeting. Should we have the meeting. But we'll go through that at another time. But this one today is truly about that backwards design methodology. And I love that. You kind of really nailed it, Colleen. Sometimes I have been to meetings where I have absolutely no idea why I'm there. And I'm like, I'm doing other things. I'm drawing pictures, I'm playing on the iPhone. I'm doing something just to kind of get through the meeting. And the literature has that number very high, high 70s internationally. And there are people in government that say it's upwards of 90% of the meetings I go to. Just not helpful. So this intention here is to create a way to design at least one agenda item in, in the backwards design model that would be useful to the people that are there. But remember, there is other work to do ahead of time. Do we really need the meeting? Are we sure about who should be there? That's another podcast for us to do. So, Kathy, what's your thinking?

Well, the word design just really gives purpose. When you are designing something, you have a. You have a vision, you have purpose behind it, which I, I just think that really encapsulates, you know, what this is about. You're thinking of what do you want the. The design to look like? What's it going to be? And then I like how you said there is work required ahead of time before you slam in there and start going. So those two really stuck with me.

Good, good. I think the, the. There are many stories I could share about people who would send out pre reads and then no one would do the pre read. Then I show up at the meeting with the leader. Now they're doing a little PowerPoint presentation about the pre read. One of my most interesting and numerous experiences was working with a. He's the leader of a huge region, Eastern United States. And I said to the. Said to him, well, we're going to have a PowerPoint to start the meeting off because I asked him what we were doing that day. I said, what's it on? He it's on the pre ready. I said, okay, I recommend we don't do that. I recommend you ask them what were the biggest takeaways from the pre read and what surprised you. And he said, you know, that's a good idea. They were so silent at that part because they were expecting the PowerPoint to bail them out of having to do the pre read. And all of a sudden, the conversation changed dramatically the next time I showed up because now they sent a pre read. They. They knew there was not going to be a PowerPoint about the pre read. So all of a sudden everybody read it and had something to say about it when we started. So there are little nuances to running and designing and holding, hosting effective meetings. This is all part of what we do. And I want to make sure that we kind of stay in that space. Anything to add, Colleen or Kathy?

No, I just would also just say, you know, I love when you're both talking about taking the time to prepare to design it. And it is a new way of thinking about a meeting. So how. Because how many times do people just roll in? Especially if they have a weekly meeting. It's a standing weekly meeting with their team and they just roll in. All right, we all know why we're here. Well, really. So I think that sometimes, especially because we feel so comfortable with our team, that we miss these opportunities to really design something impactful and these protocols that we're sharing. I just want to say do two things. One, we're always focused on what it is we're going to talk about, which is important. So we're designing our CPOs around content and what we want to to people to know and be able to do. But my invitation is to think about the second piece. I'm developing a professional relationship with those people around me, whether it's virtually or in person. As a learning leader, I need to develop the professional relationships within the team so we collaborate more effectively. And that takes design and intentionality.

That's beautifully stated. And those of you that have listened to our other podcasts, you know, this is one of our major pieces. The conversation is the relationship. If we're not in a solidly designed conversation, the relationship can get a little wonky trying to use pop culture words. Anyway, it can be a problem. We're not careful if we don't fully design the meeting. I'll give you a quick non example of people I really care for these, these people. It was mostly men meeting with about 12, mostly guys. I think there was one gal, it was a IT company. They were designing, designing ways in which to help educators use, use the technology more effectively. So the meeting leader, who is just a magnificent man, he asked me to come watch his meeting, which is what we do. We watch meetings and we give a little coaching if they so, so desire. So he says, okay, we all know why we're here today. Pair up and get together. I'll come check on you in about 25 minutes. And then he stayed in the room, but he sat up in the front. So I wandered the room and I said, what are you working on? What are you working on? What are you working on? I had at least seven or eight different things they were working on, not the one thing that the leader thought they were going to work on. If we don't take that few seconds to establish why we're here, what we hope to understand together, what each of us is going to do, we lose that capability. So he gave up about an hour and a half meeting time. However, I think the learning was dramatic. He never did that again. But it was a very odd way to start off a meeting from my vantage point. So we all know why we're here. So let us push forward. We've got to have our CPO in place for this conversation. We're going to do backwards meeting, backwards cpo, design, intention, design. And Colleen, give me an example of a meeting you've been to recently where we needed to do that. You can either do non example or example either. Sure.

Well, I can give you a topic and then if you want, we can kind of craft a backwards meeting design and so you, our listeners, can get a deeper understanding of what we're talking about. So I was working with a senior leader for an insurance company and I think I hear about this more and more. Right. They're merging areas. So now he has three new team members on his team with the new territories. So this senior leaders area continues to grow. And he was asking me, and we were going through a conversation to what might that first meeting look like with these new team members?

Perfectly stated. So I'm going to pose the question and then Kathy can answer the question and you can add to your design. So, senior leader, Mrs. Schnockwurst, what do you want each person in the room to know and be able to do at the end of this conversation? How would you answer that?

I don't know. Honestly, I don't know how. I don't yeah, bail me out here.

Because I. Oh, that's perfectly fine.

So, sorry.

Set up. The setup was all about, I have three new people coming into a new sales region or a new support. Okay, so, Colleen, you answer that one for me. What do you think that leader would have said? What do you want each of the new members to know and be able to do?

Well, honestly, the leader said exactly what Kathy just said.

They said, I thought that was the case. And so now I'm really enjoying this even more. So after you said couple of other sentences, what did he end up with?

You know, and that's what I love, because questions are our friends. And questions, generative questions, help people reflect and think. And so one of the things that I did, I said, okay, well, what do you want them to know? And he said, well, I want them to get to know each other. That was one thing. Because anytime you got somebody new walking through the door, it's critically important that you don't just have them say their name and where they're from. This is about developing quality professional relationships. So one intended outcome was develop the quality relationships amongst the team.

Right.

The second big piece. And. And we work with lots of different clients, and they go, you know, people don't know what their lane is. They. They're not staying in their lane. And everybody gets mad and gets sideways because, you know, Kathy's doing something that I thought was my job, and. And now we're not really working together in a collaborative way. It's almost like it sets up more of a competitive situation because I'm new, and I want everybody to see that I know that I'm. That I'm a worthy team member and I want to be valued. So the second piece were roles and responsibilities. So he. By the time, you know, and I asked those questions, he came up with those two very specific things.

So notice what Colleen just did is she just drew us in beautifully. So I started with the outcome. What do you want each person to know and be able to do? Well, I would like each person to know the other people, the other members of the team, and be able to interact with them in a professional manner so that when they get, quote, outside their lane, which I don't think there is anything like that, I think it's made up. But when they are working, they understand how they are interdependently connected to the other members of the team. That's a beautiful outcome piece. Right. And then the next question is, so in order for them to understand that, what do they need to have a common understanding. What is that common understanding that look like? Well, they need to know where they fit in geographically. They need to know what the other people are doing. We need to have a common understanding about why that's going on. So notice we're going backwards from the outcome, ladies and gentlemen. We started with the outcome. What do we want each person in that meeting, virtual or otherwise, to know and be able to do? Next level, in order for them to know and be able to do that particular thing, what do they need to understand together, not understand alone, that this is a big piece in our work is the development of common or shared understanding. What do they need to understand together that will enable each of them to do what's expected? And then the last piece was the why. Did you get him to the why, Colleen?

Yeah, I, I did. And I think he finally landed in a beautiful way. And it was really about collaboration. Right, because, you know, you, you, you beautifully laid out two agenda items. Well, both of those are critically important for a highly, you know, an effective team to, to work together. And so his big why was just recognizing there are so many complexities out there right now and challenges that we're dealing with. So the more that we can work together in a truly collaborative way where we're really sharing our thinking and supporting each other, we will all succeed together.

So notice that Colleen just constructed the actual context statement. And the context statement has so much more power because we took the time to check with ourselves. We reflected collectively, but we could reflect alone and say, what do I want each person to know and be able to do? Okay, if that is good with me, and I'm sanguine with that idea, then in order to know and be able to do that, what do I need to understand with the rest of the team members? And then the big why became we need to be a collaborative institution. We need to be able to understand one another's responsibilities where they are, and we need to be able to talk with each other very openly, very transparently, and very vulnerably. So that was just a beautiful setup for that. Colleen, what did you notice in us doing that, Kath?

Well, I noticed that Colleen was using the words recognition of the situation as a whole. And I just think that sometimes that is a piece that is missing when you don't have that, you know, backwards design like this is what we're trying to get to. So I thought that was. And then the shared thinking to. To get you there. And I just want to use myself as a non example, is When Colleen set up the scenario and then Ray, you direct the question to me of, okay, so what would you. I don't know. And in my mind, I'm like, create teams, set up division. Like, I went completely past the exact thing that you're trying to get us to get to is have the roles and responsibilities, the common understanding, the, the, the design in place. So it's really, really good non example thinker on that or that scenario.

So we all know this, and those of you that are listening, I think Kathy really set us up beautifully. If you're going to learn something, learn a new concept. I need to have a definition of the concept, and then I need examples and non examples. And if you want to go further, then I need attributes, right? And then I would be to tell it in a story. So Colleen and I drop into storytelling almost as a matter of normal course in the work that we're doing, learning to tell stories in a very succinct short manner. Like, I, I hang out with some men who are very interesting at a lot of levels. And when someone starts to tell a story, somebody always says, is this a long story? They can drop out, they don't have to listen anymore. So that is, it's funny. And at the same time, it's very real as we go forward in this. So notice we did a backwards design, and now Colleen, give us the CPO going forward from that particular design.

Oh, for his meeting, he landed on something like in his initial meeting, you know. Thank you, everyone for joining us. There's been many shifts and changes recently in our team, as you can see. So I wanted to bring everyone together so we can develop a common understanding of kind of what are those shifts and changes, how it impacts each one of you and also get to know each other. So each of you moving forward, have a clear understanding and idea of how we can collaborate and work together most effectively as each one of us, you know, set up our year for success. So he did a beautiful job of that in moving the team forward. But I also would like to just give one other example. I think, Ray, when you were chatting, it made me think, because this is kind of a conversation when I was working with a client, right, I was posing some of these generative questions. He was reflecting, thinking, and we were designing it backwards. But many times, you know, you can. I went to my. I went to my CPA and I, I walked in and I sat down and he just started talking at me. And he was talking about how things have been going this year and the Economy and la, la, la. And he was going on and on. And I'm sitting there looking at my watch, confused because I only have 60 minutes and I need to go. I need to be somewhere. So I paused him in a very. I was doing my. In a very respectful way. And I said, excuse me.

Well, we hope.

And direct. Okay, everyone. And direct. And I said, excuse me, could you please let me know why we're here? Why what? What are we here to talk about? Right. And. And so I use those questions for reverse CPO in an informal conversation just so I could understand. What did they want from me? Why am I here? What are we going to do? What do you want me to know? And so I kind of use those types of questions. So I just want to say that while we've just modeled more of a formal application, which is wonderful, it's informal as well, because many times you can be running down the hall, your colleague stops you, and they give you the verbal vomit. Oh, my God. I just got off the phone with, you know, with our supervisor. Our supervisor told it, and so I'm sharing all this information, and then I say, okay. And I also have an issue, and I can talk through an issue. And then I'm like, okay, I got to go. Cath by. I turn around. Now, in my mind, I told Kathy that she needs to take this ball and run with it, and I'm expecting her to do something. Confusion. Right, Confusion. So I love this reverse CPO when you're having an informal conversation or when somebody's telling you something and you're trying to figure it out. What do you want me to know? What do you want me to do? Do I have a duty, or did you just want me to listen to you and to be a friend?

Yeah. Are we just here to vent or we. We here to talk about the condition of the condition? What are we here for? You know, so I think that's, you know, this is such. This. Really good. Really good. Really good. Excellent. Let's see if we have time for one more. Do you have a staff meeting, one for me, Kathy, that you want to talk about? Any agenda item at all?

Well, Colleen brought up in her example where the. There was a competitive situation that was set up. And so my agenda item that comes up repeatedly, whether it's like, at the end of the school year and moving forward in scheduling or a big project, but the topic is scheduling or managing time and time distribution of things. And I. I don't know if you want the example, but at my.

Yeah, the Example would be good. Pick one example.

So one example that happened that KE caught up into a very competitive situation was the. The leadership team said, we are tired of making the schedules for middle school and elementary teachers, so we're going to plug in different specials that need to be plugged into the schedule. And then the leadership team said, here, you guys sort it out. Just put your name on there where you think your time would be most valuable or how it works for your schedule. We'll talk about a competitive situation. Everyone's looking at each other and it was just like dogpile to get on there to like, try to set up. And I said this, I am not participating in this. So how do we avoid that?

When you start with.

To work your way back because it's going to come up again.

That's so good. So I'll make believe we're designed. The three of us are designing this meeting. So what I would like each person to know are the guiding ideas that define the master schedule so that the kids most in need get most attention or get the necessary attention that will allow each of us to collaboratively determine which part of the day is most important to that educator and why. So that would be the outcome that we would actually be able to collaborate together so that each of us can give input into what the. How I can best serve the kids that I have in my. In my area. And I think the as you know, side note, the special ed is always first that what, what are your needs? And that's usually if it's a high school master, middle school master, or elementary master. We want to know who the, who are those kids most in need could be English language learners. I don't know. Whoever they are, they get priority in terms of scheduling. That's a side note. So what do we understand together? We want to understand together the operating principles that we will use to better assist the kids in our. In our house. And the reason why we're doing it is pretty straightforward. We need to make sure that kids have the needed access and opportunity to be successful at the house. So obviously I've done that before with many different places. And to Kathy's point, people just start arguing, yeah, you know, I, I want lunch now, right. Or I have a babysitting problem in the afternoon. I need to be off last hour. You know, on and on. There's all these other competitive ideas that kind of drift in there and notice. And I'll let Colleen play with a little bit. The operating principles for the master schedule are everything. And for the Longest time now we've ignored that. We just punch it into a computer and let it spit something out rather than actually talking, having a conversation about what are the most significant parts of this master that are going to give kids the best access and support. And of course, my client is the teacher as a principal now obsessing on their needs. I want to make sure they are satisfied. Otherwise the kid experience won't be good. That is really a big deal. In this part that we did. Colleen, what did you hear me construct? There's.

Yeah, I think what I heard was just, you know, a series of questions to help you really think about the guiding ideas or the thinking behind this particular master schedule. And what I was resonating with me is once again transferring it back to my story that I shared with the senior leader. I mean, how many times do people go, oh, well, we're all professionals and okay, well I just have new people. That's okay. You know, quickly tell us who you are and where you're from and then we'll move on. And I think that. And it's true. And I think the missing piece is really understanding operating principles. What are the operating principles we need as a team to be effective. And many times people just have the tendency to skip over that. And then I think that that can lead to, as Kathy mentioned, like the Hunger Games situation where those teachers are battling because whose interest do they have? Theirs. That's the perspective they're coming from where if we have a common understanding about the operating principles and the way you laid them out on the table, Ray, now it's like, oh, we're focusing on the kids most. It need to ensure they get what the best support first before we pivot. But without that, I'm thinking, well, I want to get out of here early on Fridays. So now I'm coming at it from my perspective, not the collaborative understanding that this is going to be organized in the best way for the, for the kids.

That's really good. Can you build on that, Kathy? That was great. Colleen, what did you hear Colleen say? And please build.

Well, I really like that. Having that common understanding, going back to that and the. And the operating principles. And I just think that transfers over from not just a scheduling meeting, but to, you know, a project. Understand. I mean, it can go any which way. But. And having, I don't know, value for everybody's time. I just think that gets skipped over to why are we here? What are we doing? What is the. And acknowledging the value of time and how it impacts people differently in my example for the scheduling is little kids. They learn better in the morning, and their belly is full, and they, you know, they're not really tired and worn out. So they need that reading block time in the morning to be, you know, very specific. But it's just like looking at who your people are and what is the value of their time, and that using that as a piece in your end design, you know, I feel like that.

Gets skipped over, and you just established a couple of operating principles. When do we think kids learn best? When do we think kids have the most engagement? When do we think kids get the most out of a particular piece of the discipline? Those are operating principles. If I don't commonly understand that we are following these operating principles, I'll battle for my own space. And I want my space to feel good to me because I'm sure I'm thinking, if I'm happy, my kids will be happy. Well, again, I don't think happiness is my deal anyhow. That's everybody else's responsibility, not mine. At the same time, if I don't commonly understand those operating principles, when it comes down to me providing my input for what I think is most useful, I'll be. I'll be using thoughts way outside that backyard of the operating principles. Operating principles for Colleen and I, Kathy, have been a big piece for a long time because it keeps us in a backyard. And if somebody says, oh, I want to go outside the backyard, okay, we need to talk as a team and see whether this new idea actually matches and successfully matches the operating principles that we think are most useful for a kid to be successful at school. This has so much to do with every industry that we're in.

Where.

Where I want to play inside this backyard. So some people call them operating principles, guiding ideas, mental models. They're all very similar things. We need to be able to surface those and have a common understanding about those before we can actually support and help. So it sounds something like this. The reason why we're here today is to really make sure that we are all included. Our thinking is included, and I feel like my thinking and my voice is included. My voice matters in the design of a master schedule for this particular group of kids. In order for us to do that, I really need to develop a common understanding with all of you in this room about what are the operating principles that will help us create the most impactful and useful master schedule for our kids so that each of us can add our input openly, vulnerably, transparently about what's best for the kids that are going to be under my purview this year, kids that I'm going to take care of this year. Look what we did. That's a pretty good damn cpo, right? If I'm running a meeting about building a really effective master schedule and the principal comes to that or the team leader comes to that, or the department chair, and we did it in a couple of minutes by just breathing into, wait a minute. What do we want each educator to know and be able to do in order for them to do that? What do they need to understand? And then finally, what's the big why? And all I did was turn it upside down and did C, P O. Context, purpose, outcome. Great work, ladies. Let's do one last thing. What's your biggest takeaway from this conversation today? What is the one thing that resonated most for you today and why?

I'm gonna go with the. I'm going back to operating principles and how important that is to have a conversation about that and be open to it. And Ray, I loved in your closing there how you made it. We.

It's.

We are working together to do this. And it is for this purpose for the students, for the growth of the company, for whatever. You know, it's just very well stated. And yeah, I came away with a better understanding of what. What that means.

Thank you. I think it's a better understanding of what the three of us do from now on, too. It's what we do. We help people understand how to use these theories, methods, and tools to build the most impactful agenda item going forward. That could have been the whole meeting. 1. Sometimes a meeting has one agenda item that could have been one agenda item for the whole meeting. Sometimes there's an overall purpose, context, you know, context, purpose and outcome for the meeting. And then each agenda item has its own little cto. Again, however many, many agenda items you have design backwards. What resonated most for you, Colleen?

I think what resonated most was, you know, Kathy set up a great non example and you just provided through our conversation in reverse meeting design, an example of what a quality CPO looks like. And as you were laying that on the table, what resonated with me is, wow, if I heard what you said, Ray, I'm leaning in and I'm all in. And if I. And however, if I was listening in and Kathy was leading that other meeting in that way where it was setting up a hunger game situation, boy, is there drama now in the workplace. It's almost like the meeting leader has this opportunity to bring people together or, or almost do the opposite, to create this competitive edge. So I think that there's this sense of awareness on how you set up your meeting, because if you are the meeting leader, it will have. Could have some unintended consequences on those that you lead.

Yeah, it's beautiful. You may. What resonated in your comments, Colleen, is that if you really believe in equity and inclusion, practice this. Equity and inclusion is a feeling, a feeling that my voice matters and that I'm truly included in designing the final product. That's, you know, we've done this, Colleen. I have done this before. Diversity is a fact. This is how many men, how many women, how many brown, how many black, how many yellow? You know that. That's a. Those are facts. Diversity is a statement of fact about who's around. Equity and inclusion is about how I'm feeling. And this process states openly, your voice matters. Every voice matters. I want to hear your thinking. Once we kind of sustain this practice, that becomes a regular opportunity for people to feel connected, heard and included. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being with us today. I hope you enjoyed this one. I sure did. I learned a lot and got a lot from my, my two friends and colleagues in this particular piece today. And again, if you need us, give us a ring. We're easy to find. Gojlc.com gojlc.com is a website. There's all kinds of ways to get to Colleen. Not to me, but you can get to Colleen easily on the website. So feel free to give us a ring. Ask for a discovery conversation. Come by and see us. Thank you so much for being with us today. We hope you enjoyed this podcast. I know I do. Take care.

Sincerest thanks for listening to this episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations podcast. The Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page@gojlc.com.