Inside JLC: Trust and Trustworthiness, Part 2

Welcome everybody, to JLC Media. I was looking for a prompt on my screen. It didn't happen, so I waited a second before I spoke. So I'm sure the editor will take that part out. In any event, I'm grateful that you're here to listen to us again, hear our conversation about trust and trustworthiness. With me is Colleen, Joe, Vince, me, Amre, and my dog is sitting next to me. She's my proverbial coach, so making sure I do a good job on a podcast. So moving forward, this section is a second one on trust. And the reason why we're going to do this is to get you guys thinking about someone in your life that was truly trustworthy and maybe someone who wasn't, so that we can develop an understanding of what are characteristics of a trustworthy person so that each of you can begin to recognize those that are really, really trustworthy and places for people to improve their capabilities so they can be truly trustworthy for you as a leader. Colleen, what do you hear me talk about in terms of this particular session?

I'm hearing what this specific session we're going to be talking about kind of the characteristics and behaviors of, of trustworthy leaders and perhaps maybe those who weren't so trustworthy. And we're going to just, you know, have some stories, share some examples, and hopefully at the end of this that we'll give our listeners another set of examples perhaps of how to really enhance the quality of those professional relationships.

That's beautifully stated and a slight shift. We actually will also. I'm going to ask the three of you to identify somebody in your life where you led them, where they were trustworthy, and maybe not so much because it's always important to see those distinctions as you're trying to develop your own personal definition of I really love these people that I lead and I really want to believe that they are trustworthy. What is that going to look like? That's where we're going to go in that piece. Vince, what did you hear us say so far?

Yeah. So you in particular, this last session, in addition to what Colleen said, you talked about our ability to talk about those that we lead. And what does that look like a picture what that trusting relationship look like as we drive towards outcomes.

So tell some stories.

I'm excited.

You did do very good stories last time on that piece, too. So if you guys didn't hear the one before this, please listen to it. I think there's a lot of great little nuggets in that for you to use. Joe what are you hearing? What are you thinking about our. Our focus for this particular session?

For me, it brings back a flood of emotions as you're talking about, you know, examples in your past of people you've trusted, or maybe it's. You didn't trust too much. I think I started off my. My working life wanting to have complete trust in everybody. And perhaps that was foolish, perhaps it was naive, but I really wanted to. To be operating at that level. And then I. I think over time, you know, I discovered, you know, through. Through life's events, through work events, you know, that that leads you to a lot of disappointment. And it's. And again, some people you can. You can trust that way, but I think it's a. It's a smaller number than you would like. But that doesn't mean that the others are not trustworthy. It's that they are. It's just that, you know, trust isn't. Isn't one big club and you're either in or you're out. I think there are different levels there of trust that you can have in individuals and in people in the workplace. And you have to kind of learn that taxonomy as you go along.

In the Scottish tradition, the word maestro is used to say leader. It's also the same word for teacher. And in that particular bit of literature that was developed around that idea of maestro, teacher, leader, the most effective ways of leading was to begin believing that everybody could be whatever you wanted them to be, trustworthy, great players, whatever. And if somebody was unable to come to that level, they would demonstrate that to you. One of the people that taught me in graduate school said, as far as I'm concerned, draw A's. You'll have to convince me that you're not worth that particular designation. And of course, I did demonstrate I was not worth that particular designation. At the same time, the level of creative tension that came up inside of me, this person expects me to behave at a very high level. I need to. And to Joe's point, life gets you. And I missed a few opportunities to hit the level that that particular educator expected of me. This is really interesting. So I'm going to pivot right to Joe. I'd like one trustworthy story and one not so much so that people can kind of grab onto the too. Because whenever you're trying to learn something, examples and non examples really matter. So we're going to get examples and non examples today. Joe, would you start us off? And then you can hand off to Vince and then Vince to Colleen.

Yeah. So I think you know, we learn a lot about trust through these stories. And I think that perhaps these trust stories are the ones that we share in our, in our highest levels of confidence. You know, when we're talking with other friends and we're, and we're, we're displaying our vulnerability, but also our, you know, our, our confidence in these relationships, but also maybe not so much confidence in some of these relationships. So I think, you know, I, I would go back to a time for confidence and trust. When I was CEO of a ship in the Navy, we got asked to go out on a, on a rescue for, to go rescue a merchant ship that was sinking. And they had, it was a progressive flooding. I don't know what their problem was, but the ship was clearly sinking. And when we found the, when we got to the place where the ship was, it was, it was clear that the ship was going to go down and there were some people on board who needed to get off. Mother Nature, always demonstrating that, you know, she has a sense of humor, had created a very difficult ocean environment. The seas were very heavy. So, you know, we, we had to, we tried to do some helicopter things, but it was just, we just couldn't make it work because the deck was slanted too much on the merchant ship. So we had to send some, some sailors over, a rescue team via boat. And so putting the boat in the water was pretty exciting and sending the team over. But I had a, my command master chief was, was actually a diver and so he had. As we were approaching this ship for rescue, we had talked with the team about, okay, it's going to be a difficult environment and you're going to have to go on board and there's going to be probably a few people right there who are looking to get off the ship. That's fine, but you're probably going to, you're going to have to look around and so you're going to have to go inside the ship and do a certain amount of, of other rescue efforts.

So.

So when I, before the team went over, the master chief came to talk to me and he said, okay, we've got the teams all ready to go. And of course the teams are a group of 20 year olds, you know, who, who actually are kind of riding a, an emotional high that, hey, this is pretty exciting stuff, weather's not good, we're going to take a rough boat ride, then we're going to do some kind of interesting and dangerous things, but you know, nobody's going to get hurt and it's all going to Turn out well. And so. And so I grabbed the master chief and I took him over to my little corner of the bridge and I said, is the team really ready? And he said, yeah. I said, I talked to him and I said, so they're ready to find dead bodies underwater? And he, he said, I'll be back.

Okay.

So. So he completely, you know, so again, he and I had a very high level of trust because of the work we had done.

But.

And I knew that he had gotten the team ready mechanically, if you will, to do what they had. But perhaps the emotional and the human component of being able to perform that job was, you know, we had not addressed and we were just leaving the 20 year olds out there to figure it out on their own at the point of impact. So. So the master chief, you know, came back in a few minutes and he said, he said, okay. He said, I briefed the divers. You know, we're. They understand and they're. They are emotionally prepared, if you will, to do what has to be done. So I think that was an indication, I think about that experience often as a level of trust kind of item.

Let me hold you right there, Vince, Please respond to what you just heard from Joe.

Yeah, so I can greatly appreciate Joe's example because he was talking about were these are real world events that happen in everyday life around the world, and young people out there, man, doing the country's bidding. And when you're out in the middle of the ocean, there's no one coming over the horizon to save you. And all you have is yourself and the people who are around you. And so that relationship that Joe talked about between he and his master chief was masterful because that was a subject matter expert and a key confidant and advisor to him in all leadership decisions. And so that trust, they had to just pull aside and go, hey, I know that everything is ready. I know the guys are prepared. But have you considered this? It allowed the master chief to walk outside of his expertise, space and knowledge and open his aperture for the other possibilities. And for them to be able to have that quick communication in a crisis situation was a paramount and a great example of trust.

That's outstanding. Thank you, Colleen.

Yeah, and I also, it. What resonated with me is, you know, thinking that they're ready to go, right? They're focused on the rescue mission, as Joe mentioned, right. They're excited. They're thinking, we're gonna, you know, rough seas, we're gonna go to get to really be a badass in this situation. And I think the other piece of that, it's always the people side, the emotional side. Are they really prepared for. For what they might encounter when they're there? So I think that thinking about it from both sides and really helping the team understand. Right. That you might be walking into a situation you're not necessarily. Are you prepared for it? Yes. Are you emotionally prepared? That's a different thing. So just, you know, bringing up that, that other piece, that people piece, I think was. Was masterful and also just getting them prepared. Getting them prepared.

So I'm going to pivot back to Joe right now. Joe, what did you and the cmc, the command Master Chief, after you debriefed that? Because I know you. Do you debrief all your. Your little missions. What were your big learnings and takeaways from that between the two of you? Not just you. Between the two of you, what were your big takeaways?

Well, again, the mass Chief and I had a pretty high level of trust between each other. And so I think what he learned out of that. Let me back up to say that he was a very young, if you will, in the Navy culture, a very young master chief. And he was pretty aggressive and pretty demanding, which were admirable traits, you know, on a fleet destroyer.

So.

In the aftermath of that, I mean, what. Again, I found that as commanding officer, many times my focus was not on the, you know, the rote mechanics of things, the training, if you will, because we did a lot of that. And of course, it is an essential element and you have to train. But many times it was about the more human dimension of whatever we were doing and was to bear in mind the human cost and price that you were paying in any event. So it's one thing to go out and say, okay, we're going to go out and going to do this event, and you perceive that event is going to be a couple of hours. It's another thing when you actually get into it and you find out that this event now has gone on for a day and a half and everybody's exhausted, both emotionally and physically, but now you have to undertake pretty dangerous operations on top of the fatigue. And so. And so figuring out how you mitigate those risk factors in an effective way, because your job is to bring everybody back alive and, you know, but also to get the mission done. So I think, you know, for the master chief and I, you know, he learned, I think, a valuable lesson in that it from his youthfulness and aggressiveness, it helped him come into that human dimension. And for Me, it helped broaden my perspective that. That, you know, through vulnerability, through the closeness, he and I were both able to grow. So that I was able, because I wasn't in a place where I could leave the ship and go down and tend to this myself, because we were in fairly close proximity to this ship that was sinking. The weather was bad. That's not a time for the captain to be off the bridge. So again, it was about empowering others and watching them execute and take care of people and having the opportunity to grow.

So what Joe did in his summary there, Joe is the one that always says that reflection is a little engine of change. And I can be well trained to do something, but unless I can turn it into experiential knowledge, it doesn't become my personal, practical knowledge. And what Joe just explained was an absolute lesson for all of us about how to use that opportunity, the learning opportunity, so that your worldview, the new knowledge that you have about, we're going to go do this, we know how to do this, gets matched with real life experience. Big learning unfolds. That's where personal, practical knowledge starts to truly come up. For all the people that were involved, I doubt that anybody that went on that mission came back exactly the same as they left. They all increased their PPK going forward. What a great story. Thank you. That was wonderful. Vince, what's resonating with you right now?

What's resonating with me, man, is just the opposite. Joe's story to me focused on his ability to kind of create trust within his master chief, within that conversation, that relationship based off a blind spot or potential blind spot that the master chief may have had as technically proficient as he was. So as he was talking, I was thinking about how I had to learn a lesson from my number two guy because of one of my deficiencies. And so my story, if I can, I'd like to share with the team, please. It's about something that happened to me where my number two had to stop me and have a conversation with me to helped me change my thinking. So I was in command of a healthcare facility. My executive officer, my number two, was there with me, and we had a good relationship. And then a member got in trouble. One of my physicians did something that made a horrible mistake that by Navy standards, by military regulations, is not recoverable. That mistake was grievous enough that it probably meant his military career was going to come to an end. And so as that came to my attention and as it was unfolding, I had these two aspects. One is what happens to this person in uniform and what happens to this person's professional capabilities, his job, his livelihood afterwards. And so I had these two issues I had to consider. My initial thought was, if you're going to end one aspect of a person's career because of what they've done, it's probably going to impact the second one. And that discovery, my executive officer disagreed with my thinking, and he came to sit down with me. He said, skipper, this is your command, and ultimately it's your decision. But I have to tell you that I respectfully see this differently and I don't agree with it. And as opposed to me getting angry, I was very curious because that's not something that my number two would do very often. And so I stopped what I was doing, dropped my pencil, and said, sit down and tell me more. In that conversation and in engagement, he was able to help me understand the variable differences. And your responsibilities as a professional in the professional military culture and the things that happen in the United States each and every day from a clinical or professional culture, the two were similar, but not necessarily the same.

Wow.

As a result of that impact and that conversation, I was able to shift my thinking and shift my approach, and I was able to separate the two dynamics in this individual's life decisions. On the one hand, I had to maintain the integrity of the Uniform Code of Military Justice System, and we did that 100%. But the other aspect, I didn't have to destroy this person's livelihood, and I did everything I could touch to support that livelihood in this individual's transition back into civilian life. And a year or so later, this individual contacted me and my xo. He invited us both for dinner, and he thanked us for our collective, reflective thoughts about what we had, respect what we had to do. But he was very grateful for our ability as leaders not to cut off his livelihood and allow him to move forward in life.

And.

And he's now very happy and successful in doing great, great things. And so I'll always reflect upon my responsibility as a leader to not just think about my way, which is a way, but to create an environment, trust, where people are comfortable, surfacing issues, even if they're issues that are not in alignment with my current thinking at the time.

Oh, wow. Wow, what a story, Colleen. How does that land on you? Then I'll go to Joe.

Yeah, no, thank you, Vince. That was a great story and a great demonstration of your vulnerability as a leader. I really like that, you know, you chose to respond when he was bringing this to Your attention, when your exo brought it to your attention, not react right. And you said he was bringing this to your attention. And normally he wouldn't say, hey, boss, I see this differently. So that demonstrates that trustworthiness, that relationship right there and then how he could respectfully lay his thinking on the table takes a lot of vulnerability for him, especially when it was different than yours. And it sounds like as a result of that environment, this individual that had this situation, it didn't necessarily. It impacted his life, but not crushed his entire existence and ability to be a physician. It sounds like. So it sounds like you had that huge. She, you know, really looked at it from a different perspective. And collectively, because you had that conversation, it turned out that it was. Didn't absolutely devastate this particular gentleman's life.

Did she get your right fancy?

Yeah, that's spot on. Both Joe and Colleen had this amazing way of summarizing entire issues together better than I can express myself. So thank you.

I think she does that for me, too. Joe, has that story land on you?

Yeah, I think it's a really powerful and good story. I. You know, again, when we talk about trust, it obviously involves others. And usually for senior executives or leaders, it's a. There's an. There's a circle around them in which they want to have trust. And so I think that the ability to demonstrate vulnerability is key to that. And vulnerability means being open to other perspectives. And so I think that being open to perspectives and one of the things when I coach in small groups, one of the things I talk about to them is, what do you as a group not do well together?

What are your holes?

What are your weaknesses? Because as an executive team, you need to be aware of that. So if you're entering a phase where maybe it's not your greatest strength that you're taking a moment to reflect among your team to see if it is the right path or if you need to seek perhaps an outside perspective and pull it in. So I think Vince, in his story is demonstrating that openness that leaders need to demonstrate, have to demonstrate before making critical decisions, because these things echo across the rest of the workforce in a substantial way, and they have such meaning and take on legs and have other interpretations that, hey, this command cares, this command doesn't care. And again, that has a way of impacting morale and outcomes in many other ways.

Thank you so much for your stories. And, Colleen, thank you for the way you pull those stories together for us. What Vince said about you is absolutely true. So here we sit in this space of people listening about. I really want to be seen either if I'm an aspiring leader or a sitting leader, as trustworthy. That's different than the last one. Now, the last podcast we did, now I want to be seen as trustworthy. What's one thing you would say to that human being that they could take away from this? Joe, start us off.

Okay, I need a moment to process that, so I'm going to pass it off, Vince, for a minute.

Okay, Vince, what's one thing you would say? What's necessary to be seen as trustworthy?

I would say if there's one thing, authenticity comes to mind for me, just being authentically you. You know, you look at the four of us, we have four distinct personalities, life experiences, and the way that we approach our business and the way that we talk and share and converse. I can't speak like Ray or Joe or Colleen. I can only be Vince. And so if you're not authentic, people are going to recognize that, and it will have the opposite impact of what you intend. So authenticity being the authentic you would be the takeaway that I would like to share with the audience today.

And I love the way you characterized us as so different. And we are. And the work that we do together is about building each of our capabilities to behave very naturally in conversation, which I think translates that authentic self. That's really sweet, Colleen.

Sure. I think my invitation would be to keep the learning conversation guidelines in play. Talk a lot about those, and that's, you know, listen to, understand, speak from the heart, suspend certainty, hold space for difference, and slow down the conversation. I think when you keep those five things in play in every leadership conversation and interaction you have, you will demonstrate trustworthiness.

Wow. Powerful, Powerful. Thank you. Joe, What Rose for you.

Yeah, so I really like the way Vince talked about authenticity, and I think maybe perhaps this is the complementary piece to that, which is don't be fearful. Because I think many times leaders are concerned that they have to have this Persona of being strong and mighty and this and that. I think at the end of the day, the people in any organization respond much better when they know that their leader indeed is strong and is purposeful and is focused, but is also willing to demonstrate that vulnerability. And I think many times we're just so afraid of demonstrating any vulnerability whatsoever. So I think this is a key thing for people as they grow into their leadership roles, is not to be fearful and to be able to say, you know, I don't have much experience in that. I mean, what's your experience. How can you help me? You know, what do you know about that? How do you, you know, I'm concerned that this might happen or that might happen if we go down that path. So I think that is truly going down that path, I think truly unlocks a lot of leadership insight, experience and value.

There's a piece that you just beautifully laid on the table, the three of you. I think fear gets us, and if we're fearful, we can't be natural. So it's almost like when I'm feeling the pressure, that's your. It's almost like ringing a bell. You know, there's a bell that says I need to shift from being afraid to recognizing this as an opportunity to do something useful and really add goodness to this particular piece. Sometimes that fear just. And it certainly did it to me. I am absolutely scared to death so many times in so many situations over time, I think there's a way to learn to trust in yourself, that you can bring your best self forward in the most natural, authentic way. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being with us today. This is a continuing saga about trust and trustworthiness that our clients have asked us to talk about. So this is not just we thought it up one afternoon. It is a regular opportunity.

For us.

To talk about the significant challenges that our client base is running into. And my closing comment to all of you and to myself is the first person I need to lead and trust is me. And how do I do that to the best of my ability? Thank you for listening. Thank you for being with us today and take care of yourself on your journey. Sincerest thanks for listening to this this.

Episode of the Everyday Leadership Conversations Podcast, the Jorgensen Learning center offers a variety of programs for individuals and organizations to enhance their communication and leadership skills. To find out more about programs and upcoming webinars, check out our events page@gojlc.com.