Apply a Framework Designed to Improve Influence and Communication | Joel Silverstone | Ep. 170

Hello everyone, welcome back to I See What You're Saying, the disciplined listening podcast. I'm Michael Reddington, and today it is my pleasure to welcome our next guest, Joel Silverstone. Joel is the founder of This Feels Right. He focuses on teaching leaders how to increase the power of their influence and interpersonal communication skills. He does so by blending emotional and social intelligence with his acting background, and he works hard to move leaders from confident to compelling. And we're going to talk about how he does that by talking through his MOVE model, by talking through his— how he sees the difference in coaching people through the difference of acting, reacting, and responding. And we're also going to talk about how he teaches people to observe for cues, which cues, and why they're so important. Really appreciate you being here, back for another week. Please, while you're on the internet today, take a quick moment and check out our sponsors. Head over to humantell.com. That's where you can find out all you need to know about their best-in-class online training for recognizing when people's emotions are shifting by accurately interpreting changes in their facial expression and nonverbal communication. While you're there, enter the code ENQUAIST25 and get 25% off their best-in-class training. All professional interviewers, please head over to certifiedinterviewer.com. That's where you can get all your questions answered about both the International Association of Interviewers— that is at both the national and local chapter level— as well as the Certified Forensic Interviewer designation. What does it take to apply? How do you earn the designation? What can it do for you? All your questions are answered there. And while you're online, please head over to inquasives.com. That's where you can learn more about the programs our clients ask us to custom facilitate for their senior leaders, sales teams, HR teams, and more to teach them how how to unlock hidden value in all of their high-impact conversations. We really appreciate you being here for another week. Thank you so much. So now, without further ado, I introduce to you Joel Silverstone. Joel, it is great to see you. How are you today?

Michael, uh, so good. And then when I heard that you went to see a Montreal Expos game, I knew we were going to be friends.

Well, I appreciate that, man. Yeah, I'm a big baseball fan, and traveling for a living has given me opportunity I think 22 Major League parks I've been to at this point. But like, the, the trivia one that I can get people on, unfortunately, now is Montreal because they're gone. In fact, nobody wants to hear this, but I'm gonna talk about it anyway. I have a young son, and recently he's gotten into my old baseball collection. And he watches enough baseball, and he's played Little League, so he's familiar with a lot of the hats and stuff. And he pulled out an old Tim Wallach card. And he's like, who was this team? Like, that's the Montreal Expos. Like, well, who's the Montreal Expos? Well, they're the Washington Nationals. But really, let's go back and got to start telling them stories.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, and when you said 22 stadiums, all I could think of— I'm so sorry that, you know, probably the Olympic Stadium where the Expos played was probably number 22 as far as best stadiums go.

Yeah, maybe. But it was a cool experience.

It was.

I want to focus on how cool the experience was. If people grew up around there and got to see baseball games there back in the day, it wasn't a baseball stadium. It was just a big giant dome that they happened to put some carpet down in the middle of.

Well, and you know, in talking about communication, of course there was no language in French. There was no terms for baseball. So they had to create a whole vocabulary for baseball terms because those words never existed. So they created like a whole language of French terms.

I wasn't aware. That makes sense. If people are listening aren't aware, growing up in New England close to Montreal, yeah, uh, Montreal is a— or Quebec, the province, is a French-first province. So like there's actual laws that French is the first language, English is the second language.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

But I don't parlez-vous much français, so let's keep this one in English moving forward. I'm excited for the conversation. I got to dive into your work getting prepared for the show, and one of the things that really interests me in general, but I'm gonna take this to you in just a second, is when people can put their work into methods or modalities that others can apply in conversations that they have. You have your MOVE model. So seeing the model that other people can apply to me captures my interest right away. So if we can start there, please take your time, walk us through your MOVE model.

Well, you And, and that's one of the reasons why I did create the MOVE model was I, I'm noticing, oh, people like acronyms. Uh, it, it really, uh, you could talk about it all you want, but people need, need an acronym. And this MOVE just came out perfectly because in my former life, just like, you know, your former life, you were a for— uh, a forensic investigator. In my former life, I was a professional actor. And from the acting world, I took this word of move because an actor's job is not to learn the lines or memorize the lines or to act. An actor's job is actually to move the other actor, take the focus completely off of yourself and put the focus on the other person. And so when that happens, it forces you to be fully present. You're gonna, you know, talk about listening. You have to listen. You have to listen to the last word. Um, and the reason for that is that you're not acting and you're actually responding. or you're reacting in a certain way. And so the word MOVE, you people don't even have to know that that's what it's based on. But just when we hear you wanna basically move another person, you wanna move the conversation forward, even without understanding what the acronym means, just the word MOVE gives you that visual of momentum in the conversation that is moving forward. And I'll give you the acronym in a second, but I think one of the most important parts of communication is We're just going around the same circle. We're just, you know, I'm trying to make my point. You're trying to make your point. We're just going back and forth. Um, so MOVE just gives us this, literally this movement going forward and MOVE, I, you know, I, I bend it to whatever we're doing. So it, but the, the main basis of, of, uh, MOVE is that it's M for mindset. What's my intention moving forward into this conversation? 'Cause often our mindset is, I'm, I wanna change the person, or I wanna, I wanna win the argument. That's not an intention. That's, that's a trap. So mindset of like, you know, collaboration, uh, growth, uh, relationship right off the bat. If you go in with that mindset of that, I wanna collaborate with this person, I wanna look at the problem together and not make the other person the problem. Already your mindset just changes the complete dynamics of the conversation.

Yeah.

And then the second part of that, of the O, is, all right, you've gone in with the intention. And now again, take the focus off of yourself, put the focus on the other person. And the O is for observe. What do you see and hear from the other person? And from the acting world, we know that a script is written because the other actor or character is gonna be giving you clues or cues. They're gonna go to silence, or they're gonna speak loudly, or they're gonna speak quietly. And so there's cues and clues that are happening. The observe does also about myself. What's going on with me in this moment? Am I getting nervous? Am I speaking fast? Am I gone to silence? So observing what's going on with me, am I feeling, uh, judged? And then the V is for validation. So I think that's, and, and the V is so important because that's where most people drop the ball, is that I'm listening. But I'm only listening to hear what I want to hear or see what I want to see. And so if you don't validate what the other person has said, even if you don't agree with it, and they say, oh, you know, this is, this is really not a good time for me. I'm just really stressed. I got a lot going on. And then someone will still be pushing their agenda, go, no, no, no. Well, this is just gonna take 2 minutes. But validating it is, I could see that this is, this has been pretty stressful for you.

Validate.

is the only way you're gonna get to the E part, which is to get to engagement and exchange. Like, that's our goal. Our goal is to get to a place where, you know, to borrow from Crucial Conversations, we're have that, that we're in that shared pool of meaning where we're basically both having a dialogue, a conversation, so to speak. So there you go. You get, you said take your time. And so I did. And I gave you the, the full, the full gamut of, of MOVE there.

Well, I'm glad you did because providing the whole scope, that makes it easier for us to kind of dive in and, and pick a few pieces out with that as the backdrop. I really liked how you're talking about setting the right mindset. What are the outcomes we're looking to achieve? Is it a growth mindset, a learning mindset? All of those things are very important. But I love the line, don't make the other person the problem. That is a fantastic line. As you are working with your clients to help develop their conversational mindsets, how do you work with them in order to teach them how not to make the other person the problem when that's a reflex that many of us can default to?

Well, it's, it goes, it starts with, you know what, look, look, what do you really want from this conversation? Okay. If you really want this other person maybe to, um, not use that PowerPoint that they're going to use, well then as soon as you are, are judging them, uh, as soon as you are dismissing them, then, then you're running into all kinds of problems. And so how can you, if you actually want them to do this, the only way you're gonna do this is to actually get them to wanna feel that they're involved in solving the problem with you and not being forced to do it. 'Cause if they're forced to do it, it's a short-term solution. Change the PowerPoint or else. Short-term. But look, here's what, here's how I see it. Uh, you know, and Michael, I'd love to get your thoughts on how you see it. Uh, and then let's figure out a way so that this PowerPoint will get to its, its, uh, goal, which is to get the, the board to be engaged or the client to be involved in the meeting whatsoever. But that's how, that's, and they buy into that. People buy into, right, that's probably easier. Now, of course, as you know, our instincts take over sometimes and we can't help but force to force our agenda. So it is a good reminder when you just have this visual and say, look, um, try to imagine that you're sitting next to the person and you're looking at the problem together. And it's like the idea of move. If we have this visual, If we could see ourselves sitting side by side with the person looking at the problem together. And, you know, and I learned it myself and I thought I was applying it and someone was watching me giving coaching to someone else and they said, um, the, I don't know if you realize this, but you're like sitting back, you're leaning back in your chair, Joel. You're sitting on the other side of the table. You, you really created a wall between you and the other person. So even though I thought my words were looking at the problem together, my body language was basically signaling I'm not really involved. I, this is, I'm just using a method. So I also use that as a visual to realize it has to be body and words to match and tone and to be genuinely looking at the problem together, or else you're acting.

Yeah, that congruency is extremely important. And especially with your acting background, it's important to bring that out. People can genuinely, generally, excuse me, people can generally tell if what we're doing is natural for us at that moment or if we're putting on a show. If we're putting on a show, that incongruency tends to leak through. The fine motor control tends to get lost. It tends to be leakage to how we really feel in there, and it can screw the whole thing up if someone's really paying attention, especially if they feel threatened or if they feel like they're in a vulnerable situation. I certainly like how you talk about, even with that PowerPoint example, working it backwards from What does the board need to experience? This PowerPoint's supposed to do a job. What job is this supposed to do for the board? Well, this is what we want the board thinking, feeling, doing. How do we use the PowerPoint to turn around and create that? So it's a great example. When you look at the O, observe, that's a term that I love because all too often I feel like we talk about what we see, we talk about what we hear, we talk about what we feel, what we sense, whatever. But it's We're observing the totality of what's going on in front of us at any given time. So when, again, when you're working with your clients to help move a relationship forward, move a conversation forward, how are you helping them to develop the totality of those observation skills?

First of all, I gotta pause here and just say what an amazing listener you are, that you capture all of this information so quickly and move it forward. You are a very— you're very, you know, you're a dem— you're walking the walk, as they say. So that's— there we go. That's my observation.

Thank you.

Um, you, you know, again, it's thinking about the, the, um, the, the observation part is thinking about when I share them, the, the visual again of if you were watching this happening right now, if there was a closed circuit camera, what would it see? Would it see that someone is gone to silence? Would it see that you are pushing ahead with your agenda? So it helps to sort of reframe the thinking when you're observing, which is think of that. And, and we're so used to it now, we can actually see ourselves. We do so many, like right now we're seeing ourselves reacting and acting, um, that we might not have this eye contact when we're in person. So having that visual of thinking of that, those almost like a closed circuit camera watching this conversation, what would it see? Helps people in the observe. And what I also say is, You could think of it as listen to learn as well. So like we always say actively listening and it becomes a buzzword. How about this? Let me give you homework. Listen to learn.

That's a great way to look at it. I do agree active listening has become a buzzword, and if I'm just working really hard to look like I'm listening, that doesn't mean I'm active, actually listening. In fact, it means I'm probably not listening cuz I'm more concentrating on looking like I'm listening as opposed to, to gathering intelligence in the conversation. But if we can find, if we can give ourselves a reason to care. If we can give ourselves something to learn, drive that curiosity, we'll be in much better shape. A couple of times now you've mentioned the difference between acting and reacting, or if you've at least mentioned them in juxtaposition next to each other. Please walk me through the difference of acting versus reacting in a conversation.

Yeah, so acting would be, I didn't really catch what you said, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna ramp it up a little bit. So, uh, ask me the, ask me the question again and I'm gonna act.

Yeah. Please walk me through the difference between acting and reacting in a conversation.

Oh yeah, great question, Michael, because, you know, acting is so important and reacting, you know, so it's obvious that I'm not being present. I've already been thinking about how I'm gonna present the ideas and my energy has gone up. Or you could just see in my facial expressions and my tone of voice, I don't sound natural. And when we're watching a movie or when we're going to see a play, we could tell when someone's acting. You know, that's why we could say you go see maybe a community theater play and it's like, oh, it's, it's, you know, it was, some people were good and some people just felt like they were really forcing the lines. And that's what acting is, is that you're forcing the moment. And reacting. And I, and I wanna be cautious on that because I like to say we wanna respond and not react, but reacting is That you are being so present that you are actually being in the moment. And let's— reality TV. Reality TV does such a great job of editing it because it's all about reactions, you know, and they're, they're about to hand the rose. They edit it where we just see the facial expressions of like the, the angst of waiting to see if they're gonna be the next person. That's what reacting is, that you're so fully present in the moment. That you're not, you could see that that's what the person is thinking about. We don't need words to say this person really wants to get that rose. We don't need a narrator to explain that to us. We could see it. And that's what reacting is. You're so fully present that you're able to react in the moment to what is actually happening versus forcing it to happen.

That's a great point. We don't wanna be, especially in the conversation, if there's any level of contentiousness, opposed motivations, fears, anything like that, trying to force it through. is almost certainly going to create more resistance along the way, which is why your idea of validation is so important. And I will confess that that is something that I, over the years, have had to become more intentional about. There's times where I felt like I did it, I realized that probably wasn't. There were gaps in time where I certainly wasn't. So I guess I'm going to ask you a compound question, which is terrible, but it's what's in my mind, so I'm going to ask it anyway. You're a smart guy, you'll keep it up. But on one hand, why is it so important that people do feel validated in the middle of emotional conversations? And then off of that, what are some of your favorite techniques to demonstrate validation?

Yeah, you, you know, uh, first off, I'll just say it took a lot of courage for the communication expert to admit that they're not always perfect in, in doing that. And that's, that That shows a lot of courage. The, and so there were, there, there, I just gave you an example of validation was talking about it, picking up on an emotional moment that someone just shared in front of you and recognizing that, uh, that validating that, that took a lot of courage to do that. And it was genuine. It was honest when you said it. That's honestly how I felt that moment. It's like, oh wow, this is really cool. Michael, the communication expert, is actually saying, hey, I'm not perfect. I drop the ball sometimes, uh, with that.

Yeah.

And so that's, that's the key of validation is listening to see what's important to the other person. What do they seem to care about? What's important to them? I might not agree, it doesn't matter, but that's what's important to them. Now, how do we do, how do we do that is, like you said, it's re— it's really hard. Um, and, and I like to say that there's something called the clue bird. Which is like, we'll maybe doing like a role play or I'll be observing a role play. And if someone misses that moment, I'll just sort of do a clue, clue. I'll do like the clue bird. Like that was a clue someone just shared with you how they were feeling or what they were struggling with. And if you miss that clue, you miss that important moment. Going back to your first question, you missed that important moment to actually create the trust and the connection.

Mm-hmm.

With that person? Because you can observe it, but if you do, if you don't do anything with that observation and it just stays in your head, which is what happens most of the time, oh, I observed it, but I'm moving on. If you don't actually verbalize and validate it, and validation could even just be silence, like someone just shares something and you just let it land and have the silence in that moment. So that, that's some, you know, again, it, it is a compound question because validation could take on so many different ways. Um, and we could call it empathy if you want to, which is I don't have to agree, but this is what's important to the person. And if I don't acknowledge that, there's no trust and this conversation is not really moving forward. It's gonna be stilted.

Yeah. Good explanation. And you said something several times that is very important to register with everybody. We don't have to agree. Accepting does not equal agreeing. And all too many times, whether it is somebody says or does something that maybe we just disagree with. Maybe we feel like it's against our morals, our values, our ethics. Maybe our self-image is tightly wrapped around an idea. It's an emotional conversation. Whatever it is, somebody says something we disagree with, and because of that disagreement, we cannot bring ourselves to validate their perspective, to validate their emotion, to validate their experience. Well, newsflash, it's theirs, it's valid. And if we can't validate it to start working through it together, we're just going to create more barriers. So feeling like We're agreeing with something when we're not. We're not asking anybody to agree with something that for good reason they might not, and we're not asking anyone to change what they believe unnecessarily. But accepting it to validate it, to move on, is a very important opportunity that a lot of people miss. To go back to your Clue Bird for a second, when we talk about listening for how people are feeling, whether it's like emotional intonations or different word choice, things like that, When you're working with your groups, how do you help them? Or lemme rephrase the question, please. What are some of the clues that you try to get them to hone in on during their conversations?

Well, number one is, uh, why, why did the person just say that? Why did the person go to silent? Like you, if we build on the observed observation, what did you observe? What did you hear? What did you see? And out of that, what do you think, what do you think needs to be validated? What's important to that person? And so I do a couple different activities with people to get them to register that. And number one is, I don't know if you're— you're probably familiar with this from the world of improvisation. Yes, and.

Sure.

And people always confuse yes, and with saying yes and, you know, and silliness and moving the scene forward. But yes, and is saying yes to the person And then offering maybe alternatives. So let's say you and I were planning to go on a trip and we were gonna go, uh, go, we were gonna go see the, uh, you were gonna go see 3 or 4 different, you know, baseball stadiums. Uh, but that's not really my idea of fun. Uh, but I'm saying yes to the person that, yes, yes, Michael, I love the idea that you want to, you want to combine seeing some different sites and combine your love of baseball. And, you know, what, you know, with that idea, uh, what else could we do in some of those cities? So it, it's, we're not just relying on the baseball. And so we could really make it a full, a full itinerary. So it's like, I, I, it's saying yes to the person and offering alternatives. So not dismissing it. And going back to what you just said about we don't have to agree. That's, that's what it is, is when I disagree with you and, and you're so right, because it is often about protecting our status. I don't wanna look foolish. Uh, I wanna look like I'm in control or protecting our status. And so yes, and is such an important part. The second one I do is what I call listening without solving the problem. And so I'll have 2 people come up and one person has 1 minute to share, uh, a challenge that they're struggling with, and the other person is not allowed to solve it. All they can do is listen for what's important to that person. What did they hear that they cared about? What did they value? And they only have 20 seconds to answer it afterwards, and they have to take 10 seconds to just digest what the person has said. And that is probably the— that and Yes, And are probably the 2 best ways that people can really experience of how they're not really being fully present. And they're often saying, yes, but, or they're just, they're listening to solve the problem. Or listening to make it about themselves again.

All great points. And unfortunately for all of us, definitely myself included, listening to make it about us is like the natural mode of operation because we're gonna focus on how we feel, what we think, what's important to us. So to get back to that learning mentality, that curious mentality you mentioned earlier, we really have to be intentional about staying outta that. And it's hard to be present if we don't give ourselves a valid enough reason to stay present during those conversations, especially throughout the ebbs and flows. And I also really like what you said about— and this was something I absolutely had to learn, and my wife probably wishes I learned it earlier, if we're being honest— but that's not listening to solve the problem. Listening and solving the problem— and problem solving can be the same. They can also very much be different. And sometimes taking more of a therapist mindset of listening to somebody in a way that allows them to arrive at their own solution can be more productive than trying to jump in and solve the problem for you. For them.

You nailed it. I think that one translates— the listen without solving the problem translates to everyone's personal life 100%. And to your point also, you know, sometimes people do just want the problem solved. Look, don't give me that mumbo jumbo because we're all— we all have different communication styles. So sometimes it is just, look, here's my situation. Yeah, I know that's how I feel, but what do you think? So sometimes we have to also adapt as to what, what is the important thing here. But 9 outta 10 times, if someone feels heard and understood, they don't feel they have to re-explain the problem. They don't say, oh no, no, you, you don't get it. You, you didn't really understand it.

Yeah. As soon as somebody feels like we spoke out in a way that, in depending on the relationship, depending on the context, there's level of forgiveness, right? If something is new, if it's confusing, if we've got a great relationship, there's all kinds of ways it might be forgiven. But if somebody is speaking to us in a way where the expectation is we're paying close enough attention that we're going to understand what they're saying, and then we respond in a way that makes it pretty obvious we weren't really paying attention and we didn't get it, that's a great way to start fracturing the relationship and making things more difficult for us. All great points to— I guess we can't skip engagement, right? We've come this far, we've gotta get engagement in as well. What are some of your techniques for driving engagement in some of our more difficult conversations? When we're communicating with somebody that doesn't necessarily wanna play ball?

Well, sometimes it is just doing a meta thing, which is, you know, Michael, you know, I, I hear these things are important to you. Um, and, and I want to, I want us to move forward in this conversation. I'm, I'm still sensing that you're still holding back or there, there's something maybe still bothering you. It may be, uh, and maybe I'm missing it. Uh, and maybe it's me. Maybe I, I've spoken too much or, You know, I'd love to get your thoughts. So it's like literally sort of pulling you, pulling yourself out and actually saying, what is actually going on? What do you see? What's actually happening? And, and call it. Um, and sometimes that person just needs that, that safety of, oh, I didn't realize that's how I was coming across. You know, that wasn't, I didn't mean to be a, a jerk in that situation. Uh, or maybe it, it is gonna escalate, but that's okay. And, you know, the move means might have to go back again. You might have to go back again to, right, don't get it, don't get pulled into the fight. Remember, this is around collaboration and, and verbalize it. The other person can't read your mind. And I think that's where miscommunication happens. They, they, we think everyone's got, um, you know, this ability to read our mind, but they can't. So if they can't, we need to help the conversation along. And the last thing I'll say about this is that one of us needs to be the adult in the relationship. And so, you know, since, since I've taken this communication course or whatsoever, uh, it, uh, or even if I haven't, if this relationship is important to me, and it should be, no matter what, professionally or personally, it should be. Um, then I need to be the adult in the relationship. I need to park my ego, which is what probably the hardest thing.

Yeah.

And park my ego and really be present for the other person. And like I said, maybe even meta it if it's possible.

Yeah. Your idea about being the adult in the room is so right and so important and so frigging difficult so often. And it's, it can, I, I think it gets hard because sometimes it can feel like quitting. Sometimes it can feel like letting the other person win. Sometimes it can feel like violating our own self-image in the moment. Um, used to know a guy who used to always say, take the high road, take the high road. Well, where's that gonna lead me? Um, so being the adult in the room doesn't necessarily mean we let the other person get whatever they want, we let them walk all over us. Being the adult in the room gets back to something that you've talked about— how important is the relationship? How important is the outcome? Where are we trying to go? So if I can be the adult in the room right now, how does that help not just steer this conversation but the relationship Closer to the bigger and the more important goals. And if we can reframe that decision around these larger, more strategic goals, it's an easier decision for a lot of us to make.

You, you know, uh, absolutely. And, and, and again, you know, um, we said earlier about in the difficult conversation is sometimes the other person is just not ready to speak and we have to allow that time. And sometimes there is a just like, and we, you know, we need to We need to break away. And, and I know someone like that, that it, what you're saying and the conversation you're having is having an impact on them. They're just not quite ready to go, okay, I'm ready to talk about this. But you could see the change has happened. They just, they're, they're protecting their ego in the moment.

That's something that's really important to remember that we all do need to protect our ego. And a lot of times if we're having a conversation with somebody, and we're not pleased with how they're acting in the conversation, it's probably important to reflect at that point in time that they are acting in a way that they believe benefits them at this moment in time. Like, they're wearing the mask that they think is most likely to get them where they need to go at that point. So if we can step away, if we can look at it from almost an omniscient perspective like you mentioned earlier, that can be really important. One other thing I want to mention about that too that you just said That if somebody doesn't want to talk right now, allowing them that space and time actually builds trust and rapport. The harder we try to force them to talk right now— no, given we can come up with scenarios where they do have to talk right now, I get it, but more often than not they don't. So if we can give them the time and the space to choose how to enter into the conversation, it actually builds rapport as opposed to forcing them into the conversation. And I feel like that adaptation speaks to something that I've seen you write about, which is the opportunity So within your model and how you work, it's— I imagine it's, it's a good idea for us to go into a conversation with a plan. Sometimes that plan is not going to work. So how do you work to change the script productively when conversations do get challenging?

Basically, that's probably number one. Take a breath. Because you're— what happens, of course, is your cortisol, as you know, being the forensic investigator, everything is just, uh, go— going. And so when it's— we, we go into, go into panic mode when the conversation's not going where we want it to go. Uh, and that's the important part of really getting our breathing back under control. Obviously, we're in the, in the conversation. I'm not all of a sudden gonna go, oh.

Oh.

But even if I just take a little breath in through my nose and just pause, have a bit of silence, And this is where I go back to when I said reacting versus responding. And we always think we have to react, that we have to have the answer, that we have to move the conversation forward. The respond is like 1, 2, and, and go, okay, you know, how do I change the conversation? You know, what can I, what question can I, I maybe ask here? What statement can I make? Uh, do I, should I just be silent? Like, now we, this is, take that beat to just think about, stop, stop doing what I'm doing. Uh, and now I need to reframe my thinking. I need to look at this from a different perspective. Maybe what do they see? What are they seeing and hearing from me? So there's a, that's what we wanna do is we wanna take that beat to reframe so that we can respond instead of reacting.

That's a, that's a great alliteration, but you're 100%, 100% right. Get your breath right. Help center your brain, help center your thought process, center your emotions a little bit if necessary. And I really appreciate your point of how am I creating their reactions? Like, how are they interpreting what I'm saying, what I'm doing? All too often you talk about sometimes as selfish as we can all be as communicators, we blame people or we saddle people for the accountability of how they act, their word choice, their lack of communication, whatever it may be. A pretty large percentage of the time, if we adjusted how we were behaving in front of them, their behavior would look much different in response to us. And having that level of self-awareness becomes very important.

Yeah, you said it much better than I did. Yeah, you nailed it. That's, that's absolutely true. Um, and it— and we're often very unself— we, you know, we're very unself-aware, you know, what we call our sort of our gaps or our blind spots. Um, and, um, and that's why it's good to get some feedback like that feedback that I got while I was coaching someone. And I never realized that I was sitting back and sort of creating this wall in front of me. And, and like, no wonder somebody would not be sharing because they, my, my body language was saying that. So if we can, again, if you can have that camera, uh, and now, you know, maybe aware if someone can't give you feedback, what does that What could that camera say if the camera was on you? And going back to the acting world, because the camera is right in your face, that's one of the things you always learn is you have to be fully, fully present. And so I wasn't, I'm not being fully present when I'm busy leaning back and creating that sort of wall between me and someone else. I'm not, I'm busy thinking about what I want to do or say or, or keeping myself guarded.

Yeah, and well, to some degree we all have to think about what we're going to do or say. If we can be better prepared, if we can be more focused on what our audience is experiencing and tuned into the outcomes we want to achieve, we can do that less, which I think speaks towards the whole process of influencing others. And I know in your work you talk a lot about influencing others, particularly in the difference between motivating and manipulating. I'd be curious if you could walk us through that thought process.

Well, we're all mo— we're all, you know, finding out what's, what's important to the other person. What, what motivates them? What do they care about? What are their values? You know, humor is very important to me as a value, as an example, but it might not be important to you. And so if I'm constantly using humor, then it's not gonna be very motivating to you. If you, if facts are very important to you, Then I'll need to, then if I want to be able to influence you, I should be able to speak in facts. Now, the difference with manipulation is, again, it kind of goes back to acting and I'm no longer being myself and I'm just, I'm obviously too prepared and I'm just speaking, well, Michael, you know, you can go, you know, go back to 1872 when, and I'm giving too many facts and that's manipulation. And it's just gonna be disappointment. So manipulation also is when you're a leader and you're not actually speaking to what someone cares about. You're just be— you're just, um, being, I guess you wanna say, artificially interested. And when you're artificially interested, people can sense it. Um, one of the talks I did for Disrupt HR was called Your Acting Sucks because you Think that you're being genuine, and you think you're listening like you're interested. But all the other person sees is somebody with the wheels moving and processing and and sugarcoating, which is probably the worst thing that anybody could do. And then that's it feels icky, and that's what that's what manipulation you know. Wish I had a better word for it, but that's basically what it is. It feels icky, and. And people could tell when you're, you're acting basically.

Yeah, I, I would agree with you. So you spoke for Disrupt HR, that's the 5 minutes with 22 slides and they change automatically and you can't— how did you enjoy that?

Probably I've done it a few times. It's probably the most nerve-wracking experience ever because, you know, you, when you're doing a presentation, you have a little bit of room and you decide, now I wanna move the slide, but the slide is moving automatically every 20 seconds. And so it becomes a choreography and you really have to, you know, know every word you're gonna say so that it lines up with the slides. And then sometimes the slides, they're having technical problems and it's not going, but your speech is still going. And so it is a great experience as far as that goes. And the talks are all interesting because everyone's saying, I've got 5 minutes to disrupt your thinking.

Yeah, for anybody who speaks and you're listening to this, I would recommend finding an event with that type of setup too. I was gonna say test yourself out. I don't necessarily mean it that way, but at least put yourself through that type of experience. I've done it as well. There's a Japanese method for, for that type of presentation, or Japanese name for that method of presentation. And now that I'm opening my big damn mouth, I can't remember what it is.

I can't remember either.

But you've got 5 minutes. I think it's 20 slides. I'm not good at math. But to your point, they changed every 20 seconds automatically. You don't get a remote, you don't get to slow it down. It's set to a timer. And so it certainly takes a different level of preparation and anticipation to go through that. So it's cool to hear, hear you say that you did it. So you do. To that, to that level, I know you work on presentation skills as well. So not necessarily using that as an example because it's a unique context, But using that as a jump-off point, as you teach communication, what are the most important communication principles that tie into presentations?

Uh, you know, it, it's still, it's still the idea of moving the other person and moving the audience. And I, I like to use 3 words, uh, for that. And that is, uh, what you want— know, feel, and do. What you want them to know, what you want them to feel, what you want them to do. And this helps you be very focused on them because again, it goes back to influencing. We're presenting ideas is because we're, we're trying to influence the audience. We're not, we don't wanna sell it. People don't wanna feel sold to, but people like to buy. So like they wanna be engaged, they wanna be involved. They wanna feel that they have a decision in, in this. And same thing with the presentation. So the idea should be engaging because it speaks to the audience, to what they care about. And as you know, doing Disrupt HR, you kind of know who your audience is. And it kind of helps you center about what ideas you wanna present. And it's coming from a place of service. If I give these ideas, maybe this will help somebody in HR reframe their thinking or look at a different way they can help their organization, uh, thrive. And it's the same thing with the presentation, which is what do you want this person to actually do at the end of this presentation? And have that in the back of your mind. So at the beginning, you're priming them a little bit. As you're, as you're saying, you know, you know, at the end I'm gonna ask you to do this, or as I'm speaking, you know, think of how you could incorporate this. This is what I want you to know and this is what I want you to feel, which is I'm gonna ask you to, you know, to be engaged, or I'm not gonna ask you, I'm gonna say the words and do the actions that will make you feel hopefully you are curious about what I'm saying. And this helps. Like I was just working with someone this morning on his presentation cuz he struggles with too much information. You know, too much background, too much context. And it's like if we use this know, feel, do, look at that at each slide about how to edit, you know, from this slide, what do they need to know? What do they not need to know? What do you want them to feel from this? Uh, how is this leading towards the do? And just so it helps your, your frame with that. And as you kept saying, what you've said a few times about being prepared into when we go into our conversations.

Yeah.

It's the same thing with the presentation. You know what, if, if my intention is collaboration, what do I want them to know? What do I want them to feel? And what do, you know, ideally, what am I going to want them to do? And our, our goal with conversation though, to do is that we're actually gonna do is I want them to feel comfortable enough to actually share, uh, and for us to talk, not necessarily due to like completely change their, their PowerPoint, going back to that example.

Well, unless it needs to be completely changed.

But yeah, you know, and, but Hopefully they'll come to— hopefully that's the thing, is that before we have to be direct— and sometimes we do have to be direct— but before we do that, hopefully we can look again, look at this problem together, and they start coming up with solutions so they own it. So it's not just short-term.

That's a great point, that if they line it up with their self-image, they own it. It's something they commit to. It's not something they feel coerced into complying to in, in the short term. So that, that's a, a tremendous point. Um, and I think too, a lot of times as leaders, as people who find themselves in front of a room, well, we have a lot to say and we have a lot of experiences and we're proud of what we know. And if it's important to us, it must be important to everybody else. So why wouldn't they want all of the details? And I've had plenty, plenty of feedback sessions from presentations, from interrogations, from meetings where I used way too much detail. It wasn't necessary. area at all. And that's another area that I'm consistently trying to work on. So, your point there is spot on. Keeping an eye on the time, I want to be very respectful of your day. I thank you for everything that you've shared with us. I know that there are people who are listening and going, this is great. Where can I learn more? How do I stay connected with Joel? So, please let us know, what are you working on and how can people stay in contact with you and connect with you outside of this conversation?

Oh, well, you know, LinkedIn is the best way to connect with me. Joel Silverstone on LinkedIn. If you want more information, go to the website, This Feels Right. And I'm in Canada, so it's thisfeelsright.ca to get some information. And yeah, I, I'm not doing any public speaking in the next little bit, but I'm definitely doing a lot of traveling and working with a lot of organizations on, you know, the, the, the, the theme really is Uh, leadership. And because of AI, there's really about how to, again, how to motivate people and how to keep that engagement going with, through the, through leadership.

Yeah. And I'm glad you're out there doing that because especially as people continue to look to AI for more shortcuts, they're losing the connection between people. AI's great at a lot of things, but we're losing the connection between people. And then when the performance starts to suffer, we end up sitting around trying to figure out why.

Yeah, absolutely.

Joel, I appreciate the great conversation, man. Thank you so very much. Now I'm gonna go home and dig out all my old Andres Galarraga cards and Andre Dawson cards. And as a born and raised Boston Red Sox fan, I do have to thank the Expos for Pedro Martinez. So thank you so very much. Uh, but dude, it's been great to meet you. I appreciate all your time and expertise today. I look forward to staying in touch. Thank you.

Absolutely. Michael, thank you so much for this great conversation. And again, you are a terrific listener, so I really appreciate it.

I appreciate it, man. My pleasure. Take care. Joel, thank you for a great conversation. I really appreciate all that you shared today. Thank you so much for taking the time. I really enjoyed it. You're spot on with the power of validation. That is something that we all, myself included, should be striving to do more consistently, as well as not being artificially interested. People can do a good job of seeing through that, and it tends to blow up in our face and hurt our credibility. And as much as it isn't fun, you're dead on about having to be the adult in the conversation. I really appreciate all that you shared today. Thank you so much. Hopefully everybody else was taking notes and enjoyed that conversation as well. Before you go today, please take just a moment, leave a review, leave us your feedback, subscribe to the show, like the show, share it with your network. We really do appreciate it. And of course, please check out our sponsors. You can head over to humantell.com. And enter the code INQUASIV25 for 25% off their best-in-class online training to recognize when people's emotions are shifting by accurately interpreting changes in their nonverbal communication and facial expressions. Also, please check out certifiedinterviewer.com. If you're a professional interviewer, that's where you can get all of your questions answered about the International Association of Interviewers, how it works at both the national and chapter level, as well as the Certified Forensic Interviewer designation. Who can apply? How do you earn it? What's it mean for your career and more? And we do appreciate you checking out inquasiv.com. That's where you can learn more about the programs our clients ask us to custom facilitate for their senior leaders, sales teams, HR teams, and more to teach them how to uncover hidden value in all of their high-impact conversations. We really appreciate you coming back for another week. Thank you so very much. Please stay safe, take care of each other, and we'll see you next time. Bye.