Kindness Isn't Weakness in Leadership | Michael Neece

Big smile.

If I told you the next competitive advantage in your business wasn't AI, it wasn't speed, it wasn't a smarter playbook, but it was Kindness? You'd probably smile politely and change the subject. My guest today would tell you that that polite smile is exactly the problem. Michael Nice has spent his career inside corporate boardrooms, inside planetariums, and he's noticed something. The same cosmic perspective that humbles us under the stars is the thing missing from most leadership teams. He's delivered over 800 sessions on this, and he wrote the book In Kind. And he's here right now to make the case that kindness isn't soft, it isn't weak, and it's not optional. It's the bravest move a leader can make. Michael Neese, welcome to Leadership Live, my friend. Good to see you.

Honey, thanks so much for having me on the show. I mean, after that, I don't know what I can deliver. I'll do my best.

I am, I am so, so curious that you, you've, you've been all over the place. And this is the message just that, that's emanating from you. And it's changed things. Other people overlook it. I just want to know, what's the origin of the message for you? Where did this come from?

I think it came from the fact that when I was going through all my different jobs, in all my different careers, when somebody was really intensely cruel, you know, very unkind to me, it stuck with me. I mean, frankly, it just baffled me. I felt like an alien on a foreign planet and I didn't know what was going on. It's like, what? People treat each other like this? This seems crazy. And when people were extremely kind to me where I didn't even feel like I deserved it, like I just felt like I was really lucky and they were showering me with kindness, I thought that was the best thing ever. And so that, that really was the origin, just seeing that play out over and over and over again. You know, the corporate email where somebody's yelling at somebody else and there are 50 people on copy and you're like, oh man, what are you doing? You know, and, and then the other times where somebody, you know, comes to somebody's defense. It's— yeah, yeah. I mean, these things really stick with you and they— that's certainly it for me.

All right, I gotta know, like, was there like a moment where the world was pushing down on you and you just like, ah, this is, this is the worst? Or was it, was it the opposite? I've, I've, um, one of my mentors said we're either, um, healing from something that was kind of tragic or hard, or we're commemorating something that was good. So was it the— which side of that was what defined it or pushed you into this?

I, I think what pushed me, Donnie, was, uh, just, yeah, it was the world weighing down on me really hard. I was in a corporate job. I had somebody that was on my team that just wasn't kind. My boss was a little unpredictable. The work just didn't feel like it was my work. I think what was happening was I was suppressing a little voice inside that said, you know, you should be doing this other thing. You know that your life should be something different. And, and I finally listened to the little voice. I said, you know what, either I jump out of corporate America and I go do what my heart is really telling me, which is to try to put more kindness into the world, or Or else I'm always going to feel, you know, stuck and suffocated and like I'm in the wrong place doing the wrong work.

OK, that right there, I want to dig in. Are you OK to peel that one back? Michael, I just feel like that there are a lot of people who are in corporate leadership, the corporate world, whatever, and they're in a place to where they got there because they're good at what they do. And, and now they've kind of painted themselves into the corner. How did you break out of the corner and into, like, like, into being a messenger of this?

Well, I mean, I'll be honest, I had a stroke. Um, I was— I, I had realized I needed to do something different, um, and I started writing the book about kindness. And then before you knew it, like, I, I was, uh, outside too long one day. I didn't have enough food. And, uh, next morning I woke up kind of feeling weird. And before you knew it, I was just— it full-blown stroke. I was babbling. I lost control of the right side of my body. Thank goodness, you know, they were able to pull me all the way back to good health again. But it was a wake-up call. It was that moment of like, oh my gosh, if you suppress who you really are and what you really want and what you really believe and you don't unleash it, you're in a lot of trouble. And so that's, that's when I said, I better finish this book about kindness and I better get out there and start doing the good work.

Wow. So did you come back as the same guy, or were you slightly altered after that? Do you feel like—

My handwriting's a little funky now, but other than that, I think I'm all right. I love it.

That's— now I'm talking to leaders here, right? We're, we're right-brained people. We're like, all right, give it to me in a strategy, put it on the whiteboard. Like, how do we take kindness and make it a superpower? How do we turn it into an actual strategy?

Well, you have to have buy-in from the top all the way through to the frontline workers. If you don't have agreement on the fact that you need kindness, it will only work in pockets and it'll only work temporarily. But there was a study that was done not too long ago with Google. It's called Project Aristotle. And the very short summary of it was they had lots of groups that they formed. And the groups that did the best were the ones where there was psychological Safety. And that's just a very simple way of saying that if a person has a goofy idea, they feel like they can say it out loud. And if they, if they have, you know, if they see a problem and it's something that involves the upper leaders, they can say it and they, and they have no hesitation. That's psychological safety. And you only get that if everybody trusts everybody else enough. And you only get trust if everybody's being really kind. I mean, you know, people are stealing your ideas, you don't feel trustful. And those are not kind act. So it's, it's, people feel comfortable and feel safe.

It's interesting, as you're, as you're going through, there's the image in my mind. Well, first, it made me think about how oftentimes, and I've worked in environments where I had to be a persona of myself. And it's almost like you have to dim yourself a little bit or alter yourself. You're not bringing your full genius into what you're changing. But have you ever seen the, the show Severance?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Right? It's like you have the work you and then the, the, the out, innie and outie you, the work you and the home you. But, but you're not really truthful or honest. There's, there's no real true— do you feel like, I guess, long way of me saying this, do you feel like when we're not trusted, we just bring what's expected? And we're leaving a big part of what we could be bringing to the table out?

Worse than that. I would say that we are diminishing ourselves so that what's expected versus what we bring, we're bringing even less than that. I mean, think about it. You have a change in leadership where, you know, everybody's been kind, everybody's been hearing each other. They're super innovative, very productive. Nobody leaves this job because they love it. They've been there for forever. Suddenly, you have a change in leadership or somebody new comes in and things change subtly.

Mm-hmm.

That's when you have the problem. That's when, you know, you have the winds of change of like, you know, people aren't listening to your ideas anymore, or they throw you under the bus more readily, or, you know, and once that's, that kind of behavior starts happening, that's when you start hiding good ideas. That's when you see there's a red alert because, you know, project step number 3 is, is nobody's thought of it and there's this big problem. You're on step number 1. Well, you don't say anything. You say nothing because you know somebody's gonna yell at you because they're like, look, we have to stay on, you know, we have to stay on project timelines and we don't need any, you know, nervous Nellies. We don't need anybody who's gonna be a naysayer. So, you know, keep it to yourself.

Mm-hmm.

So people keep it to themselves. And that is a huge problem. That's when your problem, that becomes a corporation-breaking nightmare.

For sure. And I would ask for leaders who are watching or listening, how much is it costing you if your best people are hiding ideas? Like right now, we're, we're at the dawn of like ideas are going to set you apart from, from competition in so many different ways.

Right.

What's it costing you if they're hiding it? I, I want to go through a couple of things just for leaders. I'm thinking there's, there's a, there's a mindset. I heard you say something on a recent post where It's like this, this assumption. So I want to talk about mindset and then we'll get into like some of the skill set because I do think some, some people are just like maybe like if they were to hear you, they might just try to say the right thing or, you know, make it a structure. But there's a mindset. Can you talk to us about that and about assumptions? Sure. Yeah.

The mindset for me, like I worked in planetariums for forever and so I always have this sort of astronomical cosmic view of everything. And I mean, just think about it, Donnie, you and I, we're the only us there ever will be, there ever was. I mean, you bring a uniqueness to this universe that nobody else can do. If you're here to sing a song, you're here to do a broadcast, you're here to write a book, whatever you're here to do, you're the only one who can do it. I mean, everybody these days is so afraid of AI taking our jobs, but AI can only imitate, and it can only imitate if you've done your unique thing first. So the mindset really then— If I see you as a treasure, as a marvel of the universe, and I treat you like that, now suddenly I'm cherishing the things that you're bringing. I'm thinking about all the great stuff that you're bringing, and the stuff that isn't going so well, I try to console you. I try to grieve with you. I try to, I try to be there for you. And then that breeds an awful lot of loyalty. And so it's really all about seeing each other as the marvelous wonders of the universe that we really are. Because if you are and I am, So is everybody listening. So is everybody else you will ever work with. So treat them that way.

I love that. I listened— the thing I heard recently, I think it was when you— doesn't matter where you go or what you do, you just get— there's like a positive— I think it was— I don't think you called it a positive assumption. I forget what, but it's like you're not— if someone's yelling at you, you're not thinking like, you stinking jerk, I'll yell back at you. But it's more like, man, what's, what's wrong with you? How did, how did you cultivate that? Or have you always been that way?

Um, it's really funny because every time I get out on the highway and I see somebody cutting somebody else off, or I see somebody else, you know, trying to speed up and try to, you know, just doing all kinds of things, I think, I've been that guy. I've been that other guy. I've been that lady over there. You know, I try to remember that there have been times when I have just been in my own world and I cut somebody off because I'm not thinking, I'm not paying attention to anybody else. There are other times when I I feel like somebody's trying to get ahead of me and it kind of gets my goat. So it's, it's really just being a student of all those times when I have had moral failings. And then I'm like, oh, right. Yeah, this person showed up 15 minutes late for a really important meeting and they had some of the presentational stuff that we needed. And, you know, but I— but then I tried to say, I've been the late guy before. How, how can I be mad at this person? You know, they got caught in traffic. I mean, they, they didn't come in here and say, How can I mess this meeting up? They came in there doing their very best. And sure, afterwards, we can kind of say, OK, what went wrong? How do we fix it? But even in those moments, you don't say, you knucklehead, you missed the first part of the meeting! What you do is you say, hey, tell me, tell me what happened. You get really curious. And I think that, that is a game changer. When you're curious, it makes everything better.

All right. I'm really, I'm really curious about curious. I think that's one of the untapped gifts of most people. That's the one thing AI cannot bring, by the way. But I feel like that one of the gifts that all of us have is we can give the gift of curiosity. We also have a unique ver— everyone has their own brand of what they're curious about. But can you talk to me about the role of, and how do we, how do we cultivate curiosity? That's, that's a, it's an interesting one.

Well, it's, it's, you have to say, The only true deadline is death. Everything else is just, you know, somebody said this sounded like a good timeline. They put it on the, you know, key deliverable milestone chart. And before you knew it, you know, the Gantt chart said this had to happen on Tuesday the 5th, and it didn't. Oh no, now we're in trouble. And I think it's, it's once you start saying, All this stuff is made up. All of it's made up. Well, okay, what does good look like in this moment? What does good look like? And how do I cultivate more of the good? You don't do it by yelling at somebody for a minor infraction, and you certainly don't do it by not being curious. So I think it just comes from remembering it's not all about me, it's not all about you, it's not all about the quarterly results. It really is about putting out a great product or a great service. And if you miss by a week or 2 weeks, okay, but is it a great product? Is it something you're proud of? If you rush and you put out something that's half-baked, you know, right on the timeline, well, who even knew that was your timeline? That's just what you would, right?

It's interesting, we can be so arbitrary with a lot of what we have. And it's like, how— like, I think what some of what we're kind of pushing up against is how do you frame purpose and meaning in, in what you're doing. Now, it, like, I'm— is there a, um, some of what you're, you're— as I, as I look at it, I did, I did get your book, by the way, I would say, um, on Audible, uh, InKind. You guys need to get the book from— I haven't listened to it yet. I just listened to the, to the intro. But, uh, you guys need to go get that. But it feels like, as I'm, as I'm looking at some of your work and listening, Michael, it feels like there's a spiritual component to this. Is there?

I think there is. Once you realize that you're a child of the universe and that we are all interconnected, like you've got hydrogen atoms in you and oxygen and zinc and all that stuff. So do I, you know? So I think, I think there is that sort of spiritual view of we're all the same. We all really need to be able to see into each other and value each other. It doesn't mean we bring the same skills, the same knowledge, the same backgrounds, but it means that we We have the same worth, the same value. And I think, yeah, in a lot of ways, that's a very spiritual way of looking at it. Because, I mean, I hate to say this, but I mean, at some point in 100 years, somebody can come across my headstone. Is it going to say anything about that project in 2022 that I was slow on or fast on or this innovative? Nothing. Nothing about that. So why do we sweat any of that stuff? We should really be here for each other. Because if we're not here for each other, then what the heck is the point?

I love, I love that. I see your hydrogen, Michael. I see your hydrogen. I want to ask you about skill set. And I could go into the mindset. It's almost— I do almost feel like that a lot of, a lot of what happens on the external, like, forms on the internal, which is like, they're like, I could just talk all the whole time about curiosity. But what are some things that we can practically implement, whether it's in our environment or just the way that we structurally handle things or don't handle things? Like, what are some ways that, like, so skill sets for those that buy into kindness as, as the strategy that we want to embrace? Like, What are some of those?

I would say top of my list is that leaders are role models. And what you should be role modeling is that it's OK to criticize, to analyze, to tease apart what went well and what didn't. And leaders can be the role models who say, hey guys, I'm working on this thing. I'm really trying to conduct my meetings more efficiently, but I'm also trying to make sure I hear every voice in the room. Do you mind just watching as the meeting unfolds? Am I doing a good job of these things? And then afterwards, at the end, tell me, did I skip any voices? Was I too fast? Was I not fast enough? You know, just, just give me some feedback. As soon as leaders start talking about, give me feedback, now it doesn't feel so bad if, Donnie, I'm going to give you some feedback, right? Hmm.

It doesn't—

give somebody else on your team some feedback, because you've seen me welcome it and see it as a tool for improvement.

That's good. That's good. I want to— there are so many, like, I work with a lot of times, I'll call it the nice guy, nice gal, right? The people who, like, their OS, their operating system is kindness. It is care. What are some of those things and some of the ditches that they can find themselves into? Like, I know, like, whether it is People pleasing. Some people see that as a problem. People please— like, there's— there are all kinds of— every path is fraught with, uh, with danger. What are some of the things that those, those of us who are naturally functioning this way, what, what do we need to watch out for?

So yeah, I mean, first thing to do is let's have a very quick conversation about nice and kind and how they're different.

Yes, yes.

Because being kind means that I stand in the way of the bully who's trying to hurt the little kid behind me, right? That's kindness. That means that there's courage involved. It means that I have to honestly reckon with the fact that there are risks and that there is danger. Nice is hearing somebody berate somebody else in a meeting and saying, well, you know, they're just having a hard time. Let's not say anything about it. Let's not do anything about that. Nice is plastering things over and pretending things are fine. So kindness has truth-telling, it has courage. Nice has cowardice, it has hiding, and it has lies. There's so many lies that people tell if they're just trying to be nice. Oh, this person said a racist remark about that other person. Well, you know, let's, let's just try to— let's try to live in harmony. Let's, let's, let's not call them out. Let's not— that's nice. That is not kind. And, and kindness is what's called for. Oh, that's so good.

That's so good. There's— listen, right now, I really hope that someone listening to this right now, who thought that they were kind, realizes that they've been nice. Nice isn't always good. It's not like we've been— and we've been trained, by the way, Maika, a lot of us have been trained to be, to be that. But really, the truth is, I love how you put it, that That kindness involves courage. It involves truth-telling. Niceness has like— where there's some hiding, there's some lying that's happening here. And the truth is, listen, all of us have some layers of these things. There's no question.

Yeah.

But it is good to look at that. And I, I love how you invited people into the, um, into the process. I'm, I'm curious with you, like, you, you've, you've spoken all over the world. You've done all kinds of like, like, like crazy cool things. I like, my brain's going 2 ways. I want to hear about the whole, how the planetarium informed this, like, because like there's that world. But then the other thing is like, I'm wondering if there's been anything really cool that you have seen, any cool transformations you've seen. So you can take either of those questions, fielder's choice.

Man. Yeah, going all over the world and pursuing planetarium kind of stuff. I mean, it's something that unites us all. You know, if you look up at the night sky and somebody who's in Germany looks up at the night sky and somebody who's in Japan looks at the night sky, we're all basically seeing the same stuff. If Venus is up and it's in a crescent phase, Venus is up for them too. It's just a different, you know, they have their time zone, you have yours. So, so yeah, I guess all my work in different planetariums across the globe, I mean, I remember being down in Argentina. That's when constellations all kind of turn upside down.

Yeah.

But not— but, um, but it's the, the basic principle is still the same. We're all unified. We're all looking up at the same awe-inspiring parts of creation and going, oh man, I'm just so lucky to be here. And I'm even luckier to have you as my company. Ah, that makes it all worthwhile, right?

Dude, for sure. I'm like, all right, when you walk into a boardroom And you have, you know, you have this group of executives, skeptics. What's the first thing that you have to normally dismantle before they'll take kindness seriously?

Well, we talk about who is the most troublesome person on any team? Anybody in your organization that you just get the most complaints about or that you personally have misgivings about? Let's talk about that person. How did they get here? What's tolerated? Because what a leader tolerates is what they cultivate, right? If you hire somebody because, man, they're really the— my God, they're so good at AI and they know Python scripting and they know all this stuff. Let's bring them in. I've kind of heard they're a jerk and they're not great to work with, but let's bring them in because it's worth the risk.

Right.

And then, you know it, everybody else who's interacting with that person on the team, they're all Miserable. So you may have had some high performers who were on that team who are now just like rolling their eyes in meetings and avoiding things and calling out sick. And before you know it, it's like, man, was it really worth the risk to bring this person in who didn't share our cultural values, our values of teamwork and hearing each other? Never worth it. So that's one of the first things you have to dismantle. You have to say, look, Whatever you are tolerating is what you are cultivating. And you've got to be honest about that.

Oof! I have, like, like, have you, have you ever been in a scenario where you uncovered, you know, this root of bitterness or whatever it was in an organization that was infecting everyone? And you said, hey, listen, your culture is sacred. You need to— and then they, and they pulled it out, like, and you, and you, like, have you, have you watched what happens afterwards? Can you think of any? Any stories of—

Unfortunately, the thing that I have seen more often is that leaders really don't want to hear that news. They don't want to admit to the fact that they have allowed a couple of broken leaders, middle managers— they don't want to admit that they were wrong about that. And so you really— so what I've had to do is to go in and say, all right, you didn't know.

Right?

You made the best guess. You hired this person. You thought this was a good gamble. It didn't pay off. Don't kick yourself over it. Don't be mad at yourself. You did your best.

Mm-hmm.

So let's figure out what do you do from here? And the leaders who are willing to hear that nonjudgmental, hey, you know, you did the best in that circumstance you could, they're the ones who then benefit because then they can at least go have a hard conversation with that high contributor, but who is very, very problematic, they can go and say, hey, look, your behavior is not OK. You're producing amazing stuff, but it's not OK what you're doing on the side. And once you— once they start having those honest conversations, then I have seen that transform. I've also seen it be where, you know, the person just says, well, I'm taking a hike if you're going to be all down my throat about the fact that I'm kind of mean to everybody and I say sarcastic comments. I mean, come on, dude, you knew what you were getting.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, but if you're ready to leave, we're ready to see you leave.

Is, is, is that the way you would frame that? Because I do think that sometimes there is the sunk cost of like, we've already invested so far, let's try to see if we can redeem this. But sometimes it's, they don't know how to have that crucial conversation of, of disinviting people out from the fold.

That's kindness right there, though. That's the truth-telling part of kindness. That's when you're saying, okay, tell me what your experience is. Okay, I've heard your side. I've interviewed everybody else on the team. Here are some of the things that they have said. So now I'm just going through and I'm giving you data points, and it's 6, 7 points, it's 8 points. They've all said that this is not okay with them. What is your response to that? So it's having the honest conversation. It's so hard, but guess who it's kind to? Everybody else on the team.

Yeah, and yourself.

And yourself, because now at least you feel like, okay, I stood up for those other 6 or 7 people who are suffering on this team. Uh, do I really want to be the coward who hides and pretends like I didn't have a problem on this team so that I don't have to deal with it? Well, you're going to deal with 6 or 7 people who are complaining all the time. Is that better. And you're gonna have to look at yourself in the mirror and go, was I really brave? Was, was I kind to all of those people on that team? Or was I hiding because that was more convenient?

I, I've, I've got to tell you too, um, I've been not— I've been on both sides of that line personally. And I've, I've watched other people on both sides of the line. It feels so good. It feels so weightless to— when you, when you break that barrier.

It's scary in the moment, but once you commence, and, and you, and you commence with the intent to discover, to find out, to see if there are better ways of making this work— maybe that person who is problematic is somebody that can be satisfied in other ways, in other roles. Maybe they'll hear what you've had to say. Maybe they say, I've never been told this by anybody. I'm shocked. But I'm going to come back tomorrow and try to be a different person. And you see the reform that happens too. But yeah, hiding it doesn't help anyone, not even the person that you think of as being the problem.

I love where you kind of went there, and it hinted again towards curiosity. And I would say that too many of us are having meetings where we, where we predict and know an outcome before it happens, which I think in science or any other place, that's, that's bad science. That's bad anything when you, When you walk in assumptively and presumptively, and it's interesting how it's like, I noticed there's like an openness to, I'm bringing this, they're bringing that. I might not know what's happening here. There's, there's a curiosity almost of, of, of that kind of meeting.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's, yeah, the idea that you know what everybody else is going to do is the idea that you never needed to hire them in the first place, because you've already got it under control. You already know how to do all their jobs. No, you don't. And of course, it's silly when I say it out loud. But, but up until that moment, it's like, yeah, I know what they're gonna say. Why don't you ask?

Love it. Listen, there are so many people— there's one, one company in particular I'm talking to right now. And I really feel like that, that is their, their advantage over other people, isn't the systems. It's actually, it's this courageous, the They have this saying, home loans made human. So it's like, it's like, there's this humanity part of it. And yet we're always, there's like this temptation to be drawn into the AI world or the social media, all of these other things. But it's like, we can surrender this core of kindness. Michael, how do you think that kindness as a strategy, as a value, how do you feel like that, how do you believe that could take hold Well, it all comes back to purpose and mission.

If people are working at a particular company that, you know, is solving problems for children in classrooms, let's say that they're putting together some sort of really cool product that helps little 2nd graders learn French better. Well, if people are in it for themselves, then they're saying, well, I invented this piece of the product. I did this thing.

My doctorate is in this.

My master's degree is in this. Documentation unparalleled. I made sure that we got the best interpreters so that we could record them. Like, what? So second grader doesn't care, the teacher doesn't care, the parents care. At the end of the day, it's all about purpose and mission. You say people who are in it for themselves— I think most people who get to that point, they're, they're kind of jaded. They're worried. They're acting out of fear. They're like, oh, I got to put food on the table and things are not going well. My car just, you know, I had a flat tire and I got to pay for, you know, a new set of, you know, radials. It's— I, I think that's where people struggle, is that they, they get into their own, um, their, their own monologue about their lives and about how things are hard. When they show up to work and they go, I signed up to do this work. I believed in it when we started. I still believe in it. So that's one of the reasons why it's great for leaders to always talk about the drumbeat of what What do we do here? Why are we doing this? Because as soon as somebody feels like, well, you know, I'm just, I'm just doing this menial job, I never actually get to see the kids enjoy the fruits of what we do, I'm not that important. Oh yes, you are. Without somebody who wipes down the bathrooms and makes it possible for people to go to that office building to do the job, without those people, the people doing the job are miserable. They're having to— Terrible time. So every single person matters, but the leaders have to, have to do that drumbeat. They have to say, no, no, no, you think of yourself as a janitor. I want you in on this all-staff meeting. You're just as important as anybody else here. Don't ever underestimate yourself. We're helping kids.

I mean, like, all of this is like, there is like the role of a leader as a value giver or even as an appreciator. Like if we were to appreciate the value of like, we drive it up, but if we just, do a little bit of this to the people who are in our company, our group of people, it drives up the value of our company. It, uh, and if we, like, I heard this, I don't know where, there was someone who was in charge of some government entity. But one of the things that they did a study, and it was the fact that people who were engaged with the mission had to do with, um, I don't know if it was overseas giving, or there was some group I heard him on a podcast a few years ago, so I can't really cite him. But it's like, he said that if we're engaged in a mission, it frames the meaning of our work. It frames— I don't want to— it's part of the suffering, which we're all going to have. But, but it gives, it gives more resonance where, where we're engaged in something that's bigger than ourselves. And what I'm hearing you say is like, there's, there's an important— that's an important construct of the way we should be running our companies. Like what, How would, how would Michael say that, I guess?

Right. Well, I, yeah, this brings up for me, there's this great case study: Disney World janitors. They thought of themselves as being pointless. They hated their jobs. Nothing about it was good. So they did an analysis and they figured out, here's how to make it all better. You are customer service employees. You are Guest caretakers. Now, if that means that you need to wipe down a sink or you need to scrub a toilet or supply more paper towels, that's great. But your whole job is that when people come up to you and they're about to go to the bathroom, you, you were there to greet them and say, hey, how's your day? Have you seen Mickey yet? Hey, let's, let's talk about the fun times that you're having. Oh, we're out of paper towels. Let me go help with that. And before you knew it, all of these people who'd had their jobs reframed as part of the overall mission of the organization, they loved their jobs. Their job satisfaction scores went up, retention went up. Everybody said that they loved what they did, whereas before they couldn't get out of there fast enough. Man, all that is, if you take away all of the trappings, all that is is kindness. All that is is saying, hey, we're part of a team. We care about each other. We care about the people we're serving. That's all it is.

Permission. Like, it's like there's this, like, I'm valuing you and I'm giving you permission. I used to keep a sword in my office. Like, you can— it's almost like you can knight someone to go, like, here, or give the sheriff's star to go, and you're deputized to go and do this. Oh man, I could talk to you all day, Michael Neese. We're gonna, we're gonna wrap it up. I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you this.

Sure.

If, if a leader listening to this, they're like, you know what, I want to— I don't know if I can, you know, get to a Level 10, but I want to go I want to notch up one more level. I want to begin to make this a bigger part of our culture and a part of our value system. If a leader is listening to this, if they were to do just one thing differently tomorrow morning, what should it be?

If they're the top leader in an organization, or in their, they're in that inner circle, they need to go to everybody who's on their team and say, go find out what is going really well on your team and who is having the deepest struggle And then when you get that information back, learn the names. Learn the names of those people who are having a hard time or who are doing great work. Learn who they are. It matters. If you don't know who they are and you kind of avoid people in the hallways, you know, getting to the elevator or getting to the bathroom because you don't know anybody, that's already someplace that's fertile ground to start because Just somebody kind of nodding to you and going, oh, my leader said good morning to me, and they said they really liked my cool new, you know, glasses. Man, I was— that was so kind. They want to stick around longer. So you want to notch up just one notch? Learn somebody's name that you don't know and learn who is struggling so you can go to them and say, hey, you know, I heard some stuff is not so easy for you. How are you doing? That easy. Just, how are things going? Anything I can do, man, that goes a long way. Wow.

Amazing what happens when you just give a crap.

There's like—

I've, I've watched things happen for when people actually really do care and they're not just, uh, consumed by their own struggles. So, all right, so we've got In Kind is the book. It's on Amazon, on Audible, or maybe it's on your website. We've got you at ourfutureiskind.com, which I love Michael Neese, where can we get more of you? How can we get you into— or who— how can people find you and connect with you and do all that stuff?

Well, I'm on LinkedIn way too much, so you can find me there a lot. But also, we have a book that's coming out on World Kindness Day, November 13th, and it's the same name as my podcast and my company. It's Our Future Is Kind. It's me with 24 amazing futurists and kindness experts. All trying to tell you how you can help build a better world because the job belongs to all of us. It's not just me. It's not just you, Donnie. It's everyone. You have power. Might as well use it for good. And so, yeah, look, look for that book. It'll give you some strategies on how to do just that.

I love it. I love it, man, so much. Leaders out there, I hope, like, if you've been listening to this, there's no question you got at least 1% better. There's no question. Go, go out there and give a crap. Remember that kindness has courage and truth-telling, that harmony comes from that, not from you being just the, the nice guy, the nice gal hiding. And boy, I just, I just love it, man. Curiosity. Stop pretending. So much good stuff here. And Michael, you've helped us to lead better today. If we can lead better, we're We're going to live better too. I appreciate you so much, man.

Thanks, Donnie. It's a great conversation.

Well, we will definitely have to have you back. And next week, we are going to be on with Joel Zeff, Creating Ta-Dah Moments. Probably, if you like this one with, with Michael, you're gonna love the next conversation with Joel. It'll be fun. And as always, we are so appreciative of having you on Leadership Live. Thanks for letting me serve. And be a voice that gets to talk and listen to cool people like Michael Neese. If anyone knows a guest that belongs on here, please reach out. We are looking for cool people who believe what we're talking about here, and we, we all can level up together. Thank you guys very much for listening. Thanks, Michael, for being a part. Thank you.