Ross Bernstein - How Champions Handle Pressure

All right, good morning everyone. Happy Friday and welcome to Fearless. We've got an amazing guest today, Ross Bernstein, and, uh, a Hall of Fame speaker. Ross has spoken on all 7 continents, 1,000 talks on, uh, What does it really take to play like a champion, so to speak? He's a sports— he's written nearly 50 sports books. He's the kind of guy that can blend a lot that we can learn from sports into modern-day practices in businesses, things like discipline and accountability and strategy and teamwork, of course. But like any athlete, you're never done practicing. You never think you get to that point where you're like, I don't need a trainer anymore. I don't need a coach. You know, you're constantly seeking ways to improve, which is, uh, which I've been a lifelong learner my, my entire career. I've talked about that before, just hungry to surround myself with bright people, inspiring people. And, uh, we got one with us today, Ross Bernstein. He's again, Hall of Fame speaker. He's gonna talk a little bit about— we were just talking, he's got like 5 different cities coming up, and I know he's in Miami Beach today. He's got some fascinating stories to share. But in particular, he's also had, like all of us, some adversity in his life, some real challenges. And, you know, if you're ever going to get anywhere in life, you've got to be willing to step up with courage and work through those challenges that come along. And so, you know, Ross has been featured on CNN, CBC— yes, CBS, excuse me— ESPN, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg. I mean, he's— Ross is the real deal. So I'm super excited to have him on board today. So Ross, welcome. Do you have a couple of words just to open up with?

Well, it's great to be with you. Our mutual friend Brian Byro connected us. So I love that guy. So big, big morning cheers to him, but great to be with you. And, and I'm just excited to be able to hopefully share some wisdom with your loyal viewers and followers. So thanks for having me.

Hi, Ross. Well, you know, you, you speak a lot about the Champions Code, you know, the Champions Code. What— and the, the old school. I want to talk in particular about these, these themes, if you will. So why don't we start with old school? The title of the show might just be the new school. What do you get from there? What about here?

Yeah, I'm, you know, I, I just, I run my business from my phone. I, I kind of have an old school business. I, I've learned early on, I just, I I really like speaking. Early on, I was a sports author and I wrote almost 50 books, but then I could see that Amazon was coming and Borders was going and B. Dalton's was going and Crown Books was going and Waldenbooks was going and Barnes Noble was selling more caramel macchiatos and board games and tchotchkes and greeting cards and music than they were books. So I could see that disruption coming just like Airbnb and Uber and AI, certainly in other industries. So speaking has been great, and I just learned early on that I wanted to kind of run my own business as an outlier, I guess, to do it, to do it differently. There's a lot of, you know, I do this and I do that, and there's a lot of keeping up with the Joneses and whatever business you're in. But I just— for me, old school is just kind of just relationships. Like, I don't— you know, AI is never going to take my job because I, I do some weird stuff. So it's just, you know, when you're— Connecting with people like like you do, John. It's it's you know that's that's not a a bot living world. So you know I I don't use a CRM. I'm I I I you know I my contract is two sentences. I just try and I make phone calls. You know it's a lot of old school stuff, but I still believe that if you're willing to build relationships and help people and kind of by the laws of karma, you can still really grow a successful business. You don't have to always be up on all the latest technologies and do those things. So I'm— I don't know if I'm resisting. I'm just— I've just found a way that works, and I've become very laser-focused on saying no to things I really don't want to do. Um, like, I enjoy being a guest on a podcast, but I don't want to have a podcast. And I should have a podcast. I've interviewed thousands of professional athletes. I'm in the media. I know all these coaches. I could have an incredible podcast, but it's so much work that I don't want to do it. So it just— I've learned, I'm just like, just pick your pick the things that you really think you're good at that you want to do. And I've kind of created a lifestyle business where my wife and I get to travel. I do over 100 keynotes a year, so we go all over the world and we just pick and choose different great cities and see friends, and we just kind of live that lifestyle. And that's kind of at the stage I'm at now where I want to enjoy this ride but still really be trying to be a top producer. So old school.

Yeah, I hear you, Rob. I just connect with you so deeply. You know, my company turns 38 next month and I got started, started writing my first books. Amazon was just, just getting started as a bookseller. And like you said, Borders was on their way out and didn't even, couldn't adjust fast enough. Barnes Noble adjusted the idea behind Amazon to stay alive. But like you said, there's only more coffees now, it seems like, than books, you know.

Yeah.

So one thing you've obviously done is pivoted throughout your career and adapted to certain changes, but by holding on to just some fundamental principles, which I think are so important. And as an athlete, I played football at Notre Dame and it was a little ahead of your time. And I know you're—

Football, right?

That's right. That's right. Go Irish. But you learn just some fundamentals that have helped me throughout my entire career. Just those things like just self-discipline, self-management, and teamwork. Clearly, we don't do anything alone. We've always got teammates in one form or another. Like you, I run my business very simply. Having said that, I obviously have a podcast. But I have to tell you, I said just exactly what you just said for years. I was a guest on hundreds of interviews and podcasts, but I never wanted one until Fuel came along and this idea came along. And just the fact that I can now host people like you for an audience that's hungry for inspiration. You know, there's a lot of worry and doubt these days, as you know. And, um, the thing is, is I teach that adding more is usually not the answer. Adding more complexity to your life, adding more technology, add, add, add. You know, I've in past, uh, podcasts and I've taught that about the, uh, the closet syndrome. We keep filling up closets with stuff.

Yeah.

Just like we fill up our time with stuff and then we think we don't have enough space. We don't have enough closet space, so we need more. Human nature seems to be just keep adding. What I love about your theme is, no, I don't need to add anymore. I can do business. I can run a global business with a phone and with relationships. So, you are very key on relationships and I know that is one of those fundamentals. Learning to to be authentic and be real. So tell me a little more about how relationships with people around them, how you run your business. You talked about your media strategy a little bit. How's that work?

Yeah, thank you. Well, I think relationships is it's your terrestrial profile and your your online profile, certainly. So for me, I would say relationship building. I mean, I'm very purposeful to really reach out and. See my friends when I'm in cities, to really try and be a cheerleader on social media to support people. I really focus on LinkedIn. That's my only social platform. I don't waste my time on Facebook or Instagram or Snapchat or any of those other platforms. I just wanted to be good at one thing. And I really, I use it for 3 reasons: to honor, acknowledge, and thank others. So every time I'm giving a keynote, it's all about my client. There'll be a great picture of You know, not me, but like the room, the audience, and just me bragging on what that business does, what they do for the community, tagging the planners, the senior VPs, the C-suite, thanking them for bringing me and bragging on them. And really, by the laws of karma, that winds up growing my business because people see this and they see those good comments and they grow more and more and more. And you wind up, if you use social the right way, it can really be a positive thing. Most people use it for a lot of weird different reasons. And I don't profess to be any sort of social media expert whatsoever, but I find that relationship building kind of starts there on a micro level. But then I'm very purposeful to reach out on the phone. I'm a runner. I run, I try and run every day. And I'm always calling people, how are you? How's your family? You know, can I do anything for you? I don't monetize it. It's just, I'm always—

That's great.

Taking people to lunch and just catching up. I grew up in a real small town in southern Minnesota. I'm— that's just kind of how I grew up. I don't, you know, I don't really know any differently, so I'm not going to change now. So I'm just kind of enjoying this ride. It's like you said, it's weird, turbulent, crazy times. But I think if you can support people, be that cheerleader, not just for your clients, but for your friends and family and colleagues, I think it really goes a long way. People see those things. It means a lot to them. And I think having a mix too, a little bit of—

Oh, no question.

A mix of personal and business on your, on your LinkedIn is important. People want to know who you are. And you look at analytics of posts, certainly when you make a comment about your family or you do things, I think that really does help build a relationship beyond business. And I think that's important to, to be a little bit vulnerable and share some of those things about yourself sometime.

Yeah. In fact, especially when it's adversity and when you're sharing something, you know, a lot of people think, oh, you know, you've been so successful and you're at the sweet spot in life, but they don't realize just what maybe you had to go through to get there. I was listening to John Maxwell speak recently, and I love this because John said, he told a story about how a young person came up to him one time and said, I want to do what you do. And John looked at me and said, well, if you want to do what I do, are you willing to do what I did? Because to do what I do, you got to do the did. And I just kind of love that line because it resonated with me. I've gone through a whole lot of bumps in the road to get, to get where I am today, and I still feel like I'm on my way up, not down, and, you know, in a good way. What about some of the bumps you've run into?

Yeah, I mean, I, I think adversity is really the— I As a speaker, I mean, dealing with failures, and you know, being as a Division I athlete, I mean, that's the hallmark of success. That's where we learn, right? It's not through the successes, but through those failures and things that we need to try. My first big failure was I was a walk-on to play hockey at the University of Minnesota, and I got cut and wound up becoming the team mascot. This is actually my head, my Gopher head. It's funny, I was just with my good buddy, a good buddy of mine, a fellow speaker who's the Leprechaun at Notre Dame.

So we're— Oh, no kidding.

But everybody knew him because he didn't have a costume. He just wore an orange beard and walked around campus and everyone knew who he was. But I wound up writing a book about it as a senior in college. It was called Gopher Hockey by the Hockey Gopher. And it launched my career. My 2 brothers getting Ivy League MBAs on Wall Street. And my parents thought this was just the worst idea ever that I wanted to write a book about hockey. But I was passionate about sports and I wanted to make a career. And everyone said, you're going to fail. And I just said, okay. bring it. And I did it. And so I learned a lot from that failure of that. And then just going through all the trials and tribulations of learning. And it never ends. Like, I book over 100 keynote speeches a year and I probably lose 500, right? If you're not going to deal— if you can't deal with failure— I have job interviews every single day. Every day you get hired and people go, you're great, we love you. And then 3 other people go, you're horrible. Why would we hire you? We found 10 people prettier, smarter, more qualified than you. And it's a lot of— you're dealing with a lot of rejection. So you have to be able to process that in sales and in life. And things happen. Earlier this year, I was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. So I've been on chemotherapy for 10 months. It's brutal. It breaks you down. It's like napalm, you know? But I'm finally through it. I'm on my last cycle right now. I'm On the path, I had my last treatment last week, and I made a LinkedIn post just to sort of give people a little bit of an update every few months so I don't get inundated so much. I just said, I'm not ringing any bells. I'm not taking any victory laps. Give me 5 years of clean scans, and when you get in remission, I'll ring the hell out of that bell. But until that point, I'm just going to— Focus on what I can control, right? Like my diet, my eating healthy, running, having a great attitude. Certainly my work. I love it. I love traveling. My wife and I are together, which brings me great joy and purpose. And helping people. I mean, that's, John, that's what you and I get to do. We get to help people through different platforms, right? Whether it's through Fuel or speaking or books or just consulting, whatever that looks like. So I— all those things matter. And there's, you know, there's people way worse off than me. So I'm— I want to be real careful and respectful of that, but, you know, I'm dealing with some crazy shit right now, and it's, it's pretty wild. You, you know, you— everything changes when the doctor says you need to get your affairs in order before you go under surgery because there's a good chance you're not going to come out, so you better make sure your wife has all your passwords. That's, that's a conversation most people aren't really prepared for.

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's— I'm a different story than you are in that case. And, you know, I keep you in my prayers, of course. But, you know, I've had, I've had over 10 skin surgeries, 7 melanomas in the last 3 years. And, uh, you know, you, you hear that news from a, from a doctor and it's like, yep, here we go again. But, you know, I think one of the things that keeps me moving forward, uh, this is what I hear you saying, is that positive Mindset. Yeah, because if you start taking the victim mindset and you start worrying and stressing out, you're actually asking for more to worry and stress about because that's karma. That's the law of attraction. The energy, the vibration we put out into the world is precisely what we get back. And I often give this exercise to people and it freaks them out sometimes a little bit. I'll say, how do you see the world today? And in one or two words, how do you see the world today? And whatever their answer is, it's a reflection of what they have going on inside them. So if you see a conflicted world, you're conflicted. You see an angry world, you're angry. If you see a world of harmony and balance, yin yang, what goes up has to come down. There's always a perfect match. That's karma. And when people start to realize, you know, it's two sides of the same coin, and I have the choice to choose which side to look at, the solution side or the problem side. And you start to think, you know, I'm gonna keep the positive side going. I'm gonna like you get get on the road and get out there and help as many people as I can. And again, with karmic law, the more people I help, the more I get help. The more put out, the more joy I feel. The more love I put out, the more loved I feel. Just universal law. Once people start to understand that, they start to learn why am I afraid? And what good is that doing? Because if I'm putting out a fear vibration, and this is measured, these are measurable frequencies. I love the work of Dave, Dr. David Hawkins, major influence on my life, the late David Hawkins. But he measured these frequencies scientifically. And if I'm putting out a fear frequency, I'm just asking for more to be afraid of. And so I have my hand on the dial, the radio dial, so I can change those frequencies. That's true empowerment. Yeah. But it all begins with the mindset. You know, I was told I could never play football again after running my foot through a lawnmower in high school. And I was a captain of the state championship team in Michigan. And I decided that that's not true. I'm going to play again. And I walked on Notre Dame. I didn't get the scholarship. Well, I can never play again. The interesting thing is being told by a doctor. Yeah, right. Well, yeah, exactly. Here I can't. Supposedly walk again without, you know, limping. And, and I literally walk on the football team. I'm one of 2 guys that makes it. And, and I lettered in 2 years. So, but that's if I'd have believed the negative.

Yeah.

And gone through life with that victim mentality, you know, and woulda, shoulda, coulda, you know, regret. I just don't think that's any way to live. So, I mean, God bless you for just stepping up, dealing with it, and moving forward and not stressing out over it too much.

Likewise, you too. Everyone's got stuff. So we've all got stuff.

Yeah, precisely. You know, when it comes to always happening, and again, 2 sides to the same coin, I'll say to people, well, you can either ride the wave of change Or you can resist it and fight the wave, and that's just going to exhaust you. It's going to age you faster. It's going to overwhelm you. Or you can learn to surf like a skilled surfer. Ride those waves of change because they're not going to stop. I mean, think about it. Just in the last 100 years, the advancements we've made as humankind, moving through civil rights, moving through just— I mean, all kinds of things. Technologies. And I remember people were freaking out about the internet, right? Oh my God, the internet's ruined everything. Um, now AI is gonna, you know, ruin everything. Um, well, you know what, uh, and Fuel has, uh, AI bots now coming out. I think I'm one of about 15 instructors that have an AI twin. And what that means essentially is that this, this AI twin avatar, whatever you want to call it, has been downloaded with 40 years of my body of work. It does not work with the internet, things like that. Doesn't Google stuff. So if you asked my bot, John, I've got this thing that's stressing me out a little bit, right? I'm trying to adopt Lean Six Sigma and operational excellence into my business, or I'm struggling with culture change, things that I work with. What do you, where do you suggest I start? And my bot has better recall than I do. It's got hundreds of articles and interviews and things that I've done for over the decades. And it's fascinating, you know, Ross, because I've actually had conversations and I've challenged my bot with things and it comes back with better answers than I do sometimes. It's like, whoa. Now, to your point, old school, it's not gonna get up on stage and give speeches that I've I don't think so. Or go into clients and run Kaizen events and some of the things that I do. And that's where that old school, the relationships, the live interaction, the exchange of energy is, is so important. But as a keynote speaker, one of the things these, these bots could do for you, and I know Brian Byro's got a bot now, is that when you leave the stage and you leave the speech, if 1,000 people have 1,000 different questions for you, in the old days, they'd have to wait in line for an awful long long time to get to you to, to ask their question and get an answer. Now 1,000 people can ask 1,000 different questions at once and all get instantaneous answers. So it's like your bot follows you off the stage and is available to the world 24/7. That's pretty cool. So anybody listening to, to this, uh, I can't recommend Fuel enough as a learning platform. It's one of the— it's the fastest growing e-learning platform on the planet. Like, like Ross has talked about, You know, you don't learn to play hockey well watching TV and watching the NHL players and studying the rules and flipping through textbooks. That's not how you learn how to play hockey.

No.

You learn how to play hockey by playing hockey, right? Get out on the rink and, you know, you learn, you have to, you know, learn strategy and learn techniques and learn plays and things like that, like in football. But when you get out on the field, that's where the real action is. And, you know, Ross, you're out on the field every week. Doing your performances, doing your games, if you will. I don't know that you wear your golfer hat out on stage a whole lot anymore.

Maybe you do.

Maybe you do. So, you know, offer everybody a couple of thoughts on that. You know, we've— how do you deal with AI these days? What do you suggest to people?

You know, I've said the only people making money in AI right now are AI speakers, right? Consultant speakers telling people how do you, you know, there's It's, I mean, I've, I've, I've, I bet you, you know, in a competitive world, I've lost 50 gigs when I sell speaking engagements to AI speakers. There's only a couple that are good. I mean, I'll say that very critically. There's a lot of really bad AI speakers because they're just jumping on the bandwagon because companies are so terrified that they're gonna, you know, I've had many clients say, hey, I've been contracted. We need to cancel it because we got to bring in an AI speaker. We're all worried we're going to lose our jobs. Running a hotel chain, right? This is going to be outsourced— any industry, pick, pick your platform. And they're, they're all kind of terrified of what's, what's going to happen. So I don't know the answer. I don't— I didn't jump on that bandwagon. When my clients ask me to talk about it, I can tell them, you know, I just keynoted a huge conference for Best Buy. Here's how they're using AI. I just keynoted a huge procurement conference for 3M. Here's how they're using Best Buy. Here's what Prudential's doing on some of their platforms. So I'm more or less being a purveyor of information and wisdom that I'm learning from my clients to share what other people are doing, which I feel is a responsible way of using it. I don't care much about AI. I care that my clients care, but I'm not jumping on that bandwagon. No disrespect, I have zero interest in having a bot Uh, I'll, I'll, I'll be entertained by you and Brian and your bots, but I, I just don't have any interest in it. And I, I just, uh, maybe that's the old school in me, but I have a lot of friends, dear friends who are brilliant, who code generative AI, and I'm, I'm always fascinated. I need to stay up on it to learn about it, to be informed. But when you talk about fearless, I don't know, I think there's a lot of fearmongering going on in technology right now, and I think it starts with Whether you're at home watching Fox News or CNN or what, what your social platform is. And it's, you know, everything's polarized today and it sort of dictates more fear, right? And, and do this, do that, if there's a consequence. So I really, I'm just, I'm at a stage, and maybe it's because when you go through a near, near-death experience, you just, you're like, screw it, I don't, I'm gonna pick and choose what make— what brings me joy, what makes me happy, what I feel like I can control. It's the wild, wild west with this stuff right now and poly markets and tariffs and politics. And, you know, it's just, it's so overwhelming. You know, you and I grew up, John, in an era where, you know, I grew up, my dad's— we read the newspaper, right? We get the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times and the Minneapolis Star Tribune and the St. Paul Pioneer Press, the Fairmont Sentinel, local, national, and you'd watch the news. And Back then, if Walter Cronkite said something and it was wrong, they'd make a retraction, or there'd be an op-ed in the New York Times, and there was sort of an accountability. And now with so much news and fake news and news outlets, and anyone— everyone's a prognosticator and an expert, it's so hard to disseminate what's true. How do you fearlessly believe anymore, right? So you have to make your own opinions. And during elections, it's like, yeah, I don't like you anymore, I can't be your friend. And It's just a really overwhelming time in society, I think, and it causes a lot of fear. So people just tune out. They're like, I don't want to listen to the news anymore. And they're, and they're uninformed. And the louder you bang your drum, they say, well, no, this is what's happening. And we're seeing it on both sides. It's— you can't, you can't really be partisan. You're just— it's hard. Half my clients watch, you know, the left, half watch the right. So I'm Switzerland.

Yeah.

I don't have opinions like that publicly.

Yeah, I think we're losing some sound here a little bit, uh, Ross. But, you know, you're talking about the news. I, uh, I turned the news off 30 years ago, and, uh, I'm still here because I, I basically turned off negative 30 years ago. Just like, I'm not going to listen to it anymore. I'm going to focus on what I can control. I can't control what's going on halfway around the world. I can't control what's going on in, in my own Family, honestly. The only thing we can actually control is our own mind. So I'm going to control that to the best that I can. You know, yeah, with AI, I hear you. I was giving a talk out in San Diego and I was the closing keynote, but the audience was predominantly customer service reps and they were all worried about losing their jobs to AI. So it was the AI that was like, you know, so important to them. You know, my topic was more on, you know, karmic law and leadership. And I lose my job every year. I mean, you lose your job essentially frequently because I don't know about you, but I'm not on a salary. You know, I go in and I teach a client what I do typically on retainer for a year or 2. I teach them how to take over and do it and then, and really continue the cultural changes we've made, the operational changes. And then Then I'm looking for another job, so to speak, right? And you're constantly looking for opportunities to get out and relate with people and speak. So once you get through that idea of locking on to a job, and in the Zen teachings, it's attachment. Once you attach to something, a job, a person, a house, a car, anything, a title, once you attach to that, you live in perpetual fear of losing it. Because you're attached. And so the principle is detachment. What that means is I love it, I love you, I love my job, I love where I live, I love my lifestyle, but I'm okay with or without it. I'm going to land on my feet. I'm going to, you know, I'm not going to attach my identity to something I have no control over. So once you get past that, which takes courage and a sense of fearlessness, then you get into a world of true inspiration. Inspiration. In spirit, it means fearless. Once we're in that spiritual realm and we realize that so much of what we've worried about is an illusion, because we get over it, we're like, what was I afraid of, right? So how about a few just closing remarks here, Ross, for the audience? Just, you know, when you talk about the Champion's Code, what's a real nugget people can run with here?

Well, The Champions Code, it's about winning with integrity. It's based on 2 series of books I wrote about why winning teams win and about that fine line between cheating and gamesmanship in sports, in life, in business, in sales. So to be a champion, it's metaphorically— I study what it is that makes the great ones great, and I try and apply that to business, to leadership. And so for me, being a winner, it means doing things the right way, taking care of people, Not cheating, being honest. We're all tempted to find shortcuts, and we know in football and every sport there's what's cheating, what's gamesmanship. It's the flop, it's the dive, it's steroids if you can get away with it. It's right, there's, there's always that edge you're willing to go beyond. You know, if, if LeBron can sell that flop and they win by 1 point in overtime, was that gamesmanship or was he cheating? It's really a— It's really an ethical conundrum. So I talk a lot about integrity and doing the right thing even when no one's looking. And that's really the kind of the hallmark of my speaking and writing is just trying to celebrate the good stuff, the men and women who do good. And a lot of companies I work with, they love hiring athletes, right? They're coachable, they're great listeners, they wanna win, they're competitive, they can take constructive criticism. Everything is gamified, especially dealing with Gen Z and millennial trying to acquire and retain talent today. So there's just a lot of things you can learn, and that's why, you know, I'm lucky I've been able to keynote on all 7 continents because my topic of sports is just universally relatable. Whether I'm talking football in Texas or basketball in Indiana or hockey in Minnesota or cricket in South Africa or rugby in New Zealand, people speak that language. So I've just been lucky to tie into all those things.

Yeah, that's I'm all about integrity with you too. You know, sometimes you hear things like fake it till you make it. I have a real struggle with that. You know, faking it, you can't fool the truth, capital T truth. So, you know, all you're really doing is fooling yourself. And the idea of the athlete taking constructive criticism or criticism at all, if you will, reminds me of my coach back in high school. And he said, Murphy, the day I stop yelling at you is the day I've given up on you. And right there, that struck me. Here I am, like 50 years later, basically going, quoting him. He's long passed now, but it was a lesson. You know, it's— criticism can be quite valuable if you just— if you can open your mind up enough to listen and to hear it and adjust with it. Ross, you're an amazing guy. I gotta ask you one more question. All 7 continents. What in the world were you doing in Antarctica?

Well, I had to make that one happen, but I had a couple gigs in South America, so we decided we're gonna make that happen. So I was speaking in Chile, and then we wound up reaching out to a company that does business in Antarctica, and I was able to get on a research vessel and work with the cast and crew. So that was, that was pretty cool to be able to do that. But I will tell you, the penguin poop was so overwhelming. I, even thinking about it, I get a little PTSD. We spent a day on Ernest Shackleton's island, and there's like a million penguins on an island the size of like a golf hole. You know, like, it just stunk so bad. I'm like, these people lived here for 2 years eating penguins. I don't know how they did it, but it was a pretty cool experience.

Yeah. Wow. Well, Ross, it's been good to have you here. I wish you the very best in terms of health and wellness and life.

Thank you.

You know, you and I will stay in touch for sure. Next week, I've got James Maloney. James was a very successful chief human resources officer who's got quite a story to tell. And it's, you know, we're talking— his title is Walking Into the Fire. You know, we've been trained since we were little kids, don't get near too close to the fire. So what in the world is that all about, walking into the fire?

Yeah.

He will talk about that and courage and what he's had to deal with and what he's seen in terms of change happening throughout organizations for the last 40 years that he's, he's witnessed. So next week's James Maloney. I mentioned we got Brian Byro coming back up in a couple of weeks and some other top, just beautiful people, wonderful people with great messages. So with that, uh, again, it's John Murphy. Uh, thank you for joining us here on Fearless on Fuel through the Fuel platform. And if you, uh, if you will, and you, you've got some great value out of this like I did— I, I learned from every one of my guests— please like it, share it, And invite people to join us on Fearless as well. With that, happy Friday, happy weekend, everybody. Enjoy Miami and your travels next week, Ross, and thank you. God bless you.

Thank you so much.