What Fearless Leaders Know About Themselves That Others Don't

Greetings everybody and welcome to Fearless, produced by Fuel, myfuel.io. If you're not familiar with myfuel.io, check it out. It's an amazing library. It's It's an amazing resource to you to advance your career, to gain knowledge, to learn things like what we're going to learn about today, transformational leadership and how emotional intelligence plays in with that. I've got special guest Mary Pat Knight on board. She's got over 30 years experience. She's the author of The Humanized Leader. She's got a curriculum on mastery leadership. and a newsletter that she publishes every week on these various skill sets and these leadership facts, if you will. These are skills that work. All right. Mary Pat and I, you know, just, we've looked at each other's careers and such, both with over 30 years of this kind of work. It's almost like you've got 2 twins here today leading you, not to mention an Irish background. So, uh, that's right. So, uh, anyway, so welcome, Mary Pat.

Thank you.

And, uh, thank you for being a guest on Fearless. You know, this show exists essentially to help people who are struggling with fear and anxiety and uncertainty. How do I, how do I navigate this very uncertain world right now? And, and, uh, especially if I'm afraid AI is going to take over my job or, you know, that kind of a thing. Particularly if you're leading a group of people. Everybody's leading themselves in some way, so we're all leaders. When you're leading, it's important that you lead without that overcaution, that paralyzing fear. We're going to talk a lot about that. Mary Pat, I got a number of questions I want to ask you. I want to get right into this.

Sure.

Go ahead and introduce yourself and just a little bit about your background and then really So really, the first question I want to get started with is, what does it take, in your experience, to lead without fear? What does it take? And then what obstacles get in people's way that freezes them or paralyzes them or puts them in a box, that reactive drama box that you talk about?

Mm-hmm.

So what does it take? And what do you see are the most common barriers, if you will.

Good. First of all, Mary Pat Knight. My company is Leaders Inspired. Background, I started as an actor many years ago. And I tell you that because you really can't be a good actor unless you study the human condition. So from the age of 12, I've been studying the human condition and seen, seen all of the stuff and probably a lot more to come down the pike, as you say, in this world that is topsy-turvy right now. So producing a lot of fear and also a lot of fearlessness. So I think your work here is really apropos and I'm delighted that I get to be a part of it. So what is the most common thing that puts somebody into a fear position? The thing that I think that I see, and my guess is that you see this too, you work in the area of change management for how many years? Many, many, many years. So you think about a change management thing as someone punches your center of your comfort zone and it explodes and you're asked to do AI or you're asked to do the new system or you're asked to do that. And there's so much risk of being found out Because you're managing from the outside in rather than the inside out. So, I mean, I think about the— there's an old axiom, I'm sure you've heard it, uh, uh, how to— don't compare your insides to somebody else's outsides. And so the outside thing is happening, you're having an inner life that's, you know, provoking some fear, but you're so invested in protecting your image and protecting your personality and protecting, um, your position or protecting your comfort zone of the way it was that forget that you have all the fortitude inside of you to actually deal with whatever is in front of you. You weren't brought here on Earth to do anything but change. I mean, no one's going to stay a 6-month-old their entire life.

That's right. Yeah. I like to say you got to do the inner work if you're going to be any good at the outer work.

And that's— you know what? So you took the words right out of my head because that's exactly it. That's why this body of work that I have loved for the longest time is really inside-out leadership. I go in and I might be working with a CEO or I might be working with a first-line level new supervisor. I don't care what your position is. It's the personal leadership that you bring to the work that you do, which is going to carry you through. Indeed, if you want to be as fearless as you possibly can, that personal leadership is going to work more than any position that you hold. You think about Go back to the comfort zone, punch in the center of the comfort zone, and all of a sudden everyone is reacting, including you. So now, as a manager or a leader, you've got to be aware of your own reactions, but you're also supporting someone in front of you who's in the middle of their reaction. And you're probably pretty ticked off that they're having a reaction. And so then all of a sudden you've got a big fire going. Fear, fear, fear, fear, fear. So it takes the wise leader to go inside. And to know that we're a combination of head, heart, and gut, and quiet the mind and go into the heart and then listen to the intuition of the gut to say, how do I become responsive here rather than reactive? Because I need it not only for myself, but I also need it for everyone who's around me. It's pretty cool.

Yeah, absolutely. I like to call that mind the gap. You know, it's, it's, you know, when you get off a subway, so to speak, or a train in England, they'll say, mind the gap, mind the gap. You know, the little space that you got to step over. But I like to think of mind the gap as that gap between stimulus and response.

Yes.

Somebody pokes you. Do you respond habitually and instinctively by pushing back? You push, I push, and you get into this debate or whatever. Or do you mind the gap? I love how you like to use questions. I call it pull versus push. We pull with a Socratic method. We seek to understand, like, why did you poke me? What was that all about? You know, and what did I do to provoke that? You know, help me understand. That takes humility among a lot of leaders where they just don't, they have it in them. I mean, we all have it within us. But if we don't do that inner work and we, in our I ams, if you will, our affirmations are, I'm the boss and I need to be tough and I need to be whatever your story is that plays out. But if you stop and challenge yourself and think of some of your other I ams, Or I have the capacity to be patient. I have the capacity to shut my mouth and really listen and seek to understand. I have the capacity to develop my emotional intelligence. And I want to talk a lot about that with you too, just that starting with self-awareness.

Yeah.

Awareness of things around you. Tell me a little bit about how you use EI or EQ, some call it emotional quotient, to differentiate, to help people lead without fear, or more fearlessly? How do you connect those dots?

Think about the world that, you know, you're in the Lean world or have been in the Lean world, which is systems, systems, systems, but systems meeting people. So I love Lean for that. So I'm not a Lean practitioner, but I love Lean for that. It's systems, systems, systems. But many people stop there. OK, so I've got the system, I've got the process, which is really important. I know you and I had a short discussion about this, is that you can't put a good person in a bad system because it just doesn't work. But a good person can go in and see a bad system and influence change to improve the system. You got to be the good person going in there. So this is what we used to, many, many years ago, back in the old days of our career, was called the soft skills, which kind of makes me laugh because there's nothing soft about this at all. It's the hardest work you will ever do. It's the inner game of being present and alive in a world that's that's constantly changing and shifting. And you're dealing with wonky human beings along the way, including your own wonkiness as a human being. Emotional intelligence to me is the awareness that I have emotions. And if I have emotions, it's okay that you do too. And if you have emotions, it's not my job to go in and say, let me fix you. Let me fix your emotions. It is my job to sit with compassion for both myself And for the other person. And that compassionate place allows me, one, to figure out how to most effectively be responsive with my emotions and not control you and how you respond, but invest in you through listening and through coaching and through offering great feedback or holding space or whatever it is. That skill that we learn that are people and relational skills, those things that are present then really support the other person. They support the you. To make a better choice about how to express their emotions. And I know there's so much more about emotional intelligence. I mean, read all, read all the greats out there. There's an incredible body of work. To me, this is the simplest way to look at it. And so we get leaders in there who say, all right, well, I'm feeling really angry right now. Do I need to take it out on my team, or can I just go manage that trigger? Oh wow, I did express it a little bit. Now they're all twirled up. How do I help? Infuse love, compassion, wisdom, caring, seeing the other person so that we all can actually work together to improve whatever it is that needs to be improved.

Yeah, you know, from a Lean perspective, it's human nature to complicate. So Lean is, I like to call it, the opposite direction. E.F. Shoemaker had a great quote one time, and he said, any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. When I go into organizations and I see overcomplexity, I just see 10 steps to do something that should take 3, 10 minutes that should take a minute. This overcomplexity, to lean it out is considered genius. Simplifying the complex, is a definition of genius. Complicating the simple would be just the opposite of that.

Exactly right.

When you mentioned EI, there are books and books and books on it. But to me, that's in many ways overwhelming and it's complicating some things that are very simple. I want to talk a little bit about how do you help leaders become more self-aware, that first competency? Not that there's any real order to them, but it usually starts with self- awareness. It's hard to be aware of what's going around you if you're not really deep in your own awareness. And if you are aware that you're afraid of something, how do you help people wake up, so to speak, to that?

Well, you say something really interesting about waking up. So it's prompting a thought that a lot of times when we go into the next level position, the next higher position, we do fall asleep. We fall asleep to our humanity, which is why I wrote The Humanized Leader. It was in response to whatever all the stuff that was going on in the world in 2016, which was breaking my heart. It's not political. This is the fractions that were starting. And I said, wow, that is going to be mirrored in corporations, or corporations are going to mirror back to the world how to actually come together in a humanized way. So, to take a look at the humanity of another person, you first have to understand and own your own humanity. And we forget that. We become executives and we become bosses rather than leaders. First thing that I like to do at the beginning is self-assessment. To me, the mark of an emotionally intelligent leader is someone who's highly self-aware and has the ability to self-assess. And so we take a look, we go through— I mean, I have a curriculum that I teach, and the first thing we do is we take a survey and we say, all right, where are you on a scale of 1 to 5? 1, 5. Yay. Where are you on these scales of what you might look as basic skills, but they're really not all that basic? From there, we begin to design your leadership style. Do you want to be more traditional in your leadership style or do you want to be more modern? How do you blend the two so that you're totally authentic when you are leading other people who want to be authentic with you? People, you know this, you've gone into many environments where the leader is putting on a show and all of a sudden the rest of the team, anyone who's working with them doesn't trust them anymore because they're not authentic. I think the humanization is to say, I see a whole person in front of you and I'm going to bring my whole person to you. Yes. Will I learn skills? Yes. Will I learn strategy? Yes. Will I address systems? All of that is true, but I will do it with the highest honor of humanity that I have, honoring the humanity that's in you because we're doing this together. I don't know if I answered your question. I think I might have gotten on my pulpit just then.

No, but another question I wanted to ask you, Mary Pat, is that can you give an example? Because I know you can, of how EI is actually— emotional intelligence has actually helped a leader shift and change their outcomes. Something, something, an example.

A lot of them. So let me give you one. I had a client recently, very— just a brilliant, brilliant person and so heartful, but got into a fear-based position and started to have a pattern of behavior of going into a meeting and every time feeling challenged in the meeting because they were just high-stakes things going on. Every time they felt challenged in a meeting, they thought the best thing to do is to pull back. And so they pulled back thinking that that was the correct thing to do. But it was a very not human thing to do because they were pulling back from a team that was trying to figure out what was going on, what was their place in it, and how well could they trust this leader to navigate this big change that they were in. And every time he pulled back, the team questioned more. And so we, we, you know, when we saw— Here's the deal. I know this is the— this is what I wanted to get to. You see the patterns. You see the patterns. So the pattern here was, I'm afraid I'm going to retreat because I'll have control. I'm afraid I'm not going to participate because then I don't look stupid. I am afraid that the decision that I'm going to make is going to be wrong and I'm going to be viewed as imperfect. And so you see, that's impression management. So when we get into a place of fear, the impression management is there. And when we can look at it and say, I'm afraid, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna push through this anyway. I'm afraid, and I'm gonna participate, and I'm gonna show up. So the minute we saw the pattern, and the minute he saw the pattern, boom! He was like, oh no, no, no! I'm in. I'm being Socrates, asking the questions. I'm you know challenging. I'm gonna lean into the conflict. I'm gonna admit the fact that we're all a little afraid with this change process, but that we're gonna get through it together. And then the team started to trust him again, and they were having vibrant meetings, and the problem eventually got addressed. That's—

yeah, yeah. I mean, it's such powerful stuff, Mary Pat. And, you know, I've taken it over the decades now, um, much deeper into an energy or spiritual context. So I've combined a lot of like quantum physics, metaphysics, and, um, just, just teachings about energies and frequencies. And in fact, I've had a show here on The Map of Freedom where I talk about Consciousness, Dr. David Hawkins' work, where you've got 17 different feelings under 2 basic emotions, fear and love. So the fear emotions are ego. The first 8 frequencies starting at the lowest is shame, very low, and it's on a logarithmic scale. So this is science. Now, he's a PhD and an MD, the late David Hawkins. And, uh, but the idea now is if fear is an ego frequency It's, uh, it's right up there close to angry, which is a little bit higher frequency, and then pride. And then once you get to pride— so it's, it's basically, it's the lowest is shame, followed by guilt, followed by apathy, followed by grief, followed by fear, and then followed by like lust type of desire.

Yeah.

And you've got anger and pride, and then you get to courage. And it takes courage to cross the bridge from fear to love. You can't have true love and fear at the same time. It's like you can't have true faith and fear at the same time. So tying it back to— and then you, you go up the scale up into pure capital L love, unconditional love, not love I fall in and out of.

Oh, the agape. Yeah, right.

Yeah, exactly. And true forgiveness, which means I forgive and forget. Okay, I let go of the idea of right and wrong. I'm, I'm now into a whole different spiritual realm. And so when you start to look at that, Like the humanized leader. And I— the way I look at humans more and more now is bodies of energy, basically spirits, spirits if you will, who are having a temporary human experience. And then when we start throwing in some science, like 50 trillion cells in your body and each cell doing 6 trillion things at once and remembering everything.

Yeah.

And you have all— you have all this going on. If that isn't a miracle, I don't know what is. So then I I use things like the Map of Consciousness to say which— so fear is ego.

Ego, I get that. Yep.

And yeah, and so then I'll ask, I'll ask people, what are you afraid of? Because you're trying to manage a problem inside a box when it's the box that's the problem. You're in the ego box. And as long as you're in the ego box, you're constantly comparing yourself to others. You're never satisfied. You got to have more and more and more, and you're driven by fear. But a lot of people don't realize they have an option to leave that box and to lead with a completely different— you talk about authenticity. This is true fearlessness. Like, I'm not afraid to fail because I don't believe in failure. Everything, every mistake I've ever made has led to something better. You know, you probably have thousands of examples like that that I do.

Me, in my life, you know.

Precisely. So what are we afraid of? And, oh well, I could embarrass myself. I could make a bad decision. You tell an interesting story about your very first boss, Jane, I believe her name was. Not your first boss, but your favorite boss, your best boss.

And an early boss. She was one of my first bosses. Yeah. Yeah.

And just, you know, somebody makes a mistake and you learn from it and you're now more wise. And I use the metaphor a lot of sports, and in my case, I was a quarterback. And when I'd walk to the line of scrimmage, it's uncertain. Even though you have a play called and it's all part of a game plan and a strategy and you've practiced all week, the fact is it's uncertain. Okay? Every single play is uncertain. So I use the metaphor, how do you approach the day? If you're leading a team in an organization, do you walk up to the line of scrimmage afraid? And you can't pretend you're not if you are. That's not authentic, right?

Don't you reach for courage like you talk, you know, like you talk, you know?

And then there are techniques like Emotional Freedom Technique, different tools we can use to delete, to delete that, to elevate ourselves out of that frequency. And I love this. I'd love to hear your, your thoughts on this. Is an old Zen teaching, and it's, uh, you know, when an emotion knocks or feeling knocks at the front door, let it in and let it out the back door, but don't invite it for tea if it's something like fear. But here's the thing I want to get your comment on this. A lot of people lock the front door. Oh yeah. They don't let it in. They don't listen to why am I afraid? What am I projecting? Because fear comes from the projection something's going to go wrong.

That's right.

Right. It's all based on assumptions. So why not assume something positive? Because that like energy attracts like energy. So fear loves fear, just like misery loves company. So comment on that just a little bit. How do you get people to become more aware of what they're afraid of?

And then I have so many thoughts running around. Then you, you just popped so many bubbles for me. So it's really— so a really good conversation. Um, so many thoughts. So I— what— but I have to tell you, um, before I came on, I was flipping through LinkedIn, um, and one of my favorite, um, people is Chip Conley, and he's a modern elder movement— modern, you know what I'm talking about. He's the elder wisdom movement. But he was the founder of Joie de Vivre Hotels, and I followed him for many, many years. And he wrote an article, and I was like, wow, it just popped in my head as you were saying this. One of the very practical ways of doing this is the reframe. So the article he wrote on LinkedIn today, go find it. Chip Conley is on the art of the reframe to become a master reframer. So if something comes in and it is ego-based and there's fear wrapped around it, to take a look at it, just as you were just saying, how do I hold this differently? Or what is this teaching me? Or what is the next lesson I can learn here? Or how can I serve and help somebody with what's right in front of me? Part of emotional intelligence and practice is the ability to catch yourself in the moment and find the next higher thought. And that goes with your scale of Dr. Hawkins' work.

Yeah.

But I think the reframe, and then what I teach to my group is something similar, and it's called the redo. So you remember as a kid, okay, even football, wait, we got to do a redo because we didn't get the play right. So we're going to go back and give me a redo.

Yeah.

The humility and wisdom of a leader is to be able to go to whoever they have— harmed is too big of a word, but however they've provoked the trigger and the reaction to say, wait, wait, wait, Wait, forgive me. I did not do this the way I want to. May I have a redo? And redo the situation to get back in integrity. I think it's so easy to say, hard to subjugate your ego to allow your heart to lead the way that way. Yeah. So reframe, redo. And I guess the third thing, and you're very Zen, so you're going to totally align with this, is how do you stay present in the moment? You don't future projectile vomit. And you don't spend your time regretting what's going on in the past. You're here now for what you're experiencing here and now. And boy, that is a lifetime of practice to get there.

Yeah, yeah, it really is. And again, people can learn it in different ways. I like using metaphors. And if you're a musician, if you're giving a concert, if you're an athlete in any sport, You have to be present to be any good. You know, you can't be wandering, your mind can't be wandering around when you're, you know, you're about to shoot a basket. You know, you better stay present. And then what I, I combine that with is that in every moment, we call moments of truth. A Course in Miracles calls it the holy instant.

Mm-hmm.

When you are in the moment, every moment, it's always now. And when you're in the now, what are you feeling? This is a critical skill with emotional intelligence. What are you feeling every moment?

Yep.

Yep. And if it is a low vibration, I am feeling grief, I am feeling anxious, I am feeling desperate, I am feeling alone, I am feeling lost, you need to change the channel because otherwise you are just asking for more. We are always asking. We reap what we sow, you know? So, If I'm in the moment and I'm backing out of a meeting because I'm afraid or I'm keeping my mouth shut when I should otherwise speak up and I'm just not engaged, I'm not at that level of, you know what, I'm fearless. If I say something that's off, I'll self-correct. I'll get a do-over, you know, or redo. And so how do you integrate then things like that into, into your work and, uh, and, you know, Change Mastery and Transformational Leadership, where you're really trying— I use the term wake up because when we're in the ego box, we are actually asleep, you know. And it's, you know, the, the, the Buddhist— Buddha means awakened one. And, you know, in Hindu it's enlightenment, and, and Christianity it's salvation. I don't care what you call it, but it's, it's waking up to your true capital S which has an essence to grow, just like a flower doesn't work hard to grow. It does because it's supposed to. But if we get in our own way and let fear hold us back, that's like— that's like caging the spirit. It's, it's caging what I like to call the zentrepreneur that's in all of us. And then we, we have inner conflict. Right? I mean, so talk just a little bit about how you help people— I'll just use the term wake up and become more aware of their potential, the immense potential we all have. And then if there's one thing you'd like our listeners to take away from our conversation today, what would that be?

You know, I think actually what you're talking about, the interior work has to be there. But if we are really talking about humanized leader, when we're talking about emotionally intelligent leadership, the inner work has to become relational. We've got to be able to take things into relation with other people. That's actually where skills come in. I don't want to dampen our beautiful conversation about spirit and the heart, but that's where skills come in. That's where you practice. I have a 4-letter acronym: factual, direct, neutral, and kind communication.

I know.

These are the facts. I'm going to tell you directly so you're not pussyfooting around. I'm not elevated. My emotions are in check and I'm kind, which means I'm truthful. So when I coach people or when I teach people, I'm actually very bold. I let the Holy Spirit come through me. I say that and I say that unapologetically. The Holy Spirit comes through me and I know what I need to say to you. And I will say it with love, which is kindness. We need to teach leaders how to do that because people want to know where they stand. They never want to be cut down to nothing. They want to know where they stand, which means Skills also have to overlay on top of it. Listening, feedback, making great agreements, understanding really what the true nature of accountability and integrity are. And that's all the work that I do with my leaders is, let's take a look at your patterns or where you're tap dancing for love, where you're trying to perform for the greater good and stop it.

Yeah.

Stop it and be factual, direct, neutral, and kind. Love, share your wisdom, and stop fixing everyone and trying to tell everyone what to do. Enroll the team, um, through your— through all the skills that you're building inside of you to be, um, you know, it's like you play football. You can— you, you're inspirationally running a play on the field. You, you know where you need to go, but you wouldn't get there if you hadn't done all the drills ahead of time, right?

That's, that's exactly right. And when, you know, a lot of times fear comes in when we're not good at something that we're expected to do. So if I'm not good at getting up on stage and giving a speech, it's going to probably make me a bit nervous and scary. If I'm not good at football and they put me out on the field, I'm going to be like, what do I do on this? So I think you are spot on. We, you know, we have to help leaders develop specific skills like listening.

Yeah.

And like pulling people together and teamwork. really be building teams rather than separating everything, surrounding themselves with brilliant people. You know, we both know leaders who have to hire somebody less capable so that they, you know, they're not threatened, which of course is fear.

Which is so silly. Yeah.

So, you know, yeah, I know you committed to this a long time ago, so did I, but when you commit to exceptional work, and continuous learning and surrounding yourself with great resources. I mean, when I started my practice, we had no internet at the time, no Google, no YouTube. You know, I was reading books and I was even reading books about how to write books and going from there, surrounding myself in the car with audiotapes and such and listening to, you know, Earl Nightingale and David Hawkins and people like that. And that's why I'm such a fan of Fuel. And so I encourage our listeners to check it out because you've got immediate access.

Yeah.

to some brilliant help and even things like this Fearless podcast. So, Mary Pat, thank you again for joining us on Fearless. I'd love to have you back sometime. God, we could go on and on for hours, I'm sure, with all kinds of stories. But if you've got a little story that you'd like to close with, and this is Mary Pat's Humanized Leader newsletter. This is on LinkedIn. I highly recommend you read that. I just read one a couple of days ago that was beautiful about her daughter and a lesson learned. You can also, Mary Pat, give us your website and just how to reach you and your Change Leadership curriculum. And maybe just a couple of words to leave everybody with.

You know what? So thank you. First, leadersinspired.com is very easy. leadersinspired.com. S is on the end of leaders. MultipleLeadersInspired.com. You can find me on LinkedIn @MPKnight. I also publish on LinkedIn, so sign up for the Humanized Leader newsletter there as well. Here's some— I guess what I want to say to end, I have clients who've been with me 10+ years and never stopped. And we keep going back to the same curriculum. I mean, it's elevated and it expands. Same curriculum over and over again to do the reps. Because fearlessness, when you take a look at fearlessness, which is kind of the nature of what we've been talking about, if you think about it as a destination, it's absolutely— that's a lie. You will never be destined to be fearless. Everyone has fear. It just is what it is. But fearlessness as a practice, that's got it going on. Fearlessness as a practice, an intentional act of courage, leaning into it, Even when you're uncomfortable, that is what I think. This is what we've been talking about this entire time that we've been together. It's it's it that's real, and it starts with knowing yourself, knowing what your stick is, what your patterns are, and being willing to confront them, reframe them, and love the people who are in front of you. So I don't know that's I don't have a real story. I could end with a story, but I think that is how I'd like to sum up. I love it.

And what you make me think of is it's like a form of exercise. If you really want to get stronger at anything, you know, you've got to exercise. Whether you're exercising your brain by reading good books and listening to intelligent conversations, or you're exercising your body. But exercising your mind when it comes to fear. And I think, again, as you get better and better and better and more comfortable in your own skin, you're going to be able to handle fear better. And the fact that, you know what, mistakes aren't really mistakes if I learn from them and I move on. I mean, every mistake we've ever made has gotten us exactly where we are right now.

So if you think about it, think about The Wizard of Oz, and this kind of just came to me as you were saying this, so important. Those 3 characters, okay, so one, she, she, not one of the 3 characters, Dorothy has a longing and a fear, and she needs 3 components to get her self to the next level, which is a heart, a brain, and courage. That's the way to do it.

That's, that's right. And, you know, she— and the other lesson is that she had everything she needed within her reach all along, you know. And I think that's true for all of us. We, we just get in our own way. And, uh, and, and once we become aware of how we're actually holding our own selves back It is not that thing out there that is caging me. It is my mind is where I am trapped. So, Mary Pat, thank you so much.

Thank you.

I encourage everybody to like and share this episode, if you will, and subscribe to Fearless. We have got just some wonderful guests. Next week, I have got Coach Michael Burt, who is just awesome, and we will be talking about skillsets. He has got his latest book is Screw Your Why. And Michael, he talks a lot about just how important developing skills, your skills, it helps you increase your market value. And in this day and age, we, we want to be as skilled as we can and connect those skills to basically deliver service to the world in a positive way. So that's Michael, Coach Burke next week. And, uh, I've got another— I've got a great lineup coming up in August, so continue to tune in to Fearless. Check out myfuel.io and go to my white label page, if you will, and have a conversation with my AI twin. I'm talking to my twin quite a, quite a lot. And essentially, it's, um, it's an AI application, if you will, or a bot that's downloaded with 40 years of my work— hundreds of videos, hundreds of interviews, all of my books. Just, it's, it's got perfect recalls. So you can role play with my bot. You could say, hey, John, I'm struggling with something. I don't— what would you suggest I do? And you'll be tested. It's a fascinating, fascinating tool. So check that out if you— when you can. And you can also reach me through LinkedIn and through Fuell. And I invite you to do that as well. So thank you so much for Fearless. We'll see you next week. Mary Pat, thank you.

Great conversation.

Goodbye, everyone.