SSP 020: Life Transitions, Ayahuasca, And How To Use Plant Medicines Responsibly With The Mushroom Man, Iven Simonetti

Yeah, we're back with another podcast here. This is Jordan Kalish and I'm the founder of State Shifters. And this podcast is really about me, bringing on people to hopefully inspire you and empower you to take action, purposeful action, in the direction of your dreams so you can live a life of passion and purpose. And in this episode, I've got someone who I was introduced to through a mutual friend of ours, Joa Rivers, who's a previous podcast guest and his name is Ivan Simonetti. And Ivan is a certified expressive art therapist. He's a counselor and a mindfulness trainer. And he helps people navigate through life transitions, particularly people who are experiencing grief and loss, and explores the questions of meaning and identity. In addition, Ivan is a visual arts and a multi instrumentalist specializing in grief and plant medicine, integration and counseling. I mean, I was cross paths with Ivan a few months ago and we got to share a special evening together and I got a taste for some of Ivan's talent and his expressiveness through his music and his art. And I was captivated by his presence and his ability to communicate some of the, some of these complex teachings of psychedelics and grief and loss and death, and his medicine. Art addresses spiritual and psychological challenges through music and visual art, helping people to address what words often can't. So to get to know Ivan a little bit better, you can look him, look up Ivano on YouTube, but I've brought him onto the podcast so you guys can get a bit of a one on one taste of what Ivan's like. Just a few things to note. I was actually in a cafe for this one because I couldn't, didn't have any space at home, so I had to take, take the podcast outside. So it's a little bit noisy in the background, but don't let that distract you. We cover a whole bunch of topics, including how Ivan helps people transition from life to death. He explains his experience in Peru and the use of plant medicines and how he knew it was the right time to use ayahuasca and how the death of his parents in his early twenties really helped him open up the doors to become a mindfulness trainer. And then towards the end of the episode, we really get around some of the misconceptions of plant medicines and how to use them safely because they are tools in a self inquiry and when used correctly, they can be extremely beneficial for understanding deeper parts of ourselves. So enjoy the episode, guys. I appreciate you tuning in as always. If you haven't subscribed yet, be sure to subscribe on itunes. To stay updated for future episodes.

Welcome to the State Shifters podcast, a show dedicated to helping you discover your true potential through connecting the mind, body and soul.

Ivan Simonetti, welcome to the State Shifters podcast, my friend. How are you?

I'm glad to hear your voice. Thanks for inviting me for this podcast.

Oh, it's an absolute pleasure, mate. And we connected a few weeks ago by a mutual friend here in Toronto, and I was kind of captivated by the work that you do. And I'm so intrigued and curious that I wanted to bring you onto the podcast because I feel a lot of people can benefit from the. From this type of work that you do and the field of work that you're in. Just to give people a bit of a background, I'll read out a small part of your bio here. It says here you're a certified expressive art therapist, counselor, and mindfulness trainer, helping people navigate through life transitions, particularly experiencing grief and loss, exploring questions of meaning and identity. Ivan, do you mind just giving people your own description of the type of work that you do?

Yeah. Thanks. Well, I'm an expressive art therapist and what I really do with people is we engage in play, which helps them, which enables them, and it also goes away first from the problem. And I also put them in through their senses because often when we're too much in our head, things don't work out anymore.

Yeah, 100%, man. And I think that's something that is quite powerful. When you pull someone back into their senses, you get them out of their head and which is where a lot of. A lot of issues kind of stem from. I mean, you work a lot with sound as well. How did the sound play into this as well?

Well, except with sound and music, I have started when I was very, very young. I come from a family of healers and therapists and doctors. And my mom actually took care of a friend who was. Who was dying. And I was maybe just 17 or so, and I played already guitar for a few years, and I played very beautifully. Mesmerizing guitar loops which seemed to be very healing. My mom had all this confidence in saying, like to me, why don't you go to my friend Gabrielle and play some music for her? And that's how it all started, with me playing at the end of life and bedside music. Basically, people say I always say it wrong because bedside bad side. I'm not really sure. I may make a switch there, but yeah. So basically, for people who are dying, if they're comfortable with music and someone coming in playing music in a Certain manner which is, which is transformative and healing for their experience and for this challenge to come.

How have you found the response for people who do listen to music at that time, that transition from life to death? Like, is music something that kind of creates a very smooth transition?

It puts them certainly in their senses. And I mean, when we were. We have, let's put it this way, we have way before we have words, we have feelings. And music really captures that. And I mean, ask someone, how would you describe to die? Almost impossible. Right. So that there's a feeling behind it and where just words can't grasp anything. And music will definitely help to ease pain and anxiety and all the other benefits it can give you with creating serotonin and dopamine. If you sing or something like that or if you listen to music, you become certainly more open to it.

100%. Yeah. I mean the work you do with music is quite powerful. But like the explain to people the direction that, that this took when you took a trip to Peru and how your experience with ayahuasca, how it kind of changed your direction going forward.

Yeah, I was interested in, in the whole Peru experience when I came to. To Canada in 2008. I hear it from the works of Gabor Mate and Jacques Mabit and Bi Al Bate, who work therapeutically with plant medicines. And my upbringing was, I would say, a mix of Native American hippie and New Age Western kind of culture. And I've always, I've always learned about plant medicines and herbal, herbal remedies because I grew up in a house with a. With a doctor. My grandpa, Dr. Otto Kaiser was, was a doctor and my mom was this plant medicine person. So I always had that in my mind that there's two different, different realities which people pursue. And one of them basically just cuts things out, but doesn't treat the main source of it, which is often certain beliefs we carry years along with us where chronic pains actually come from. And the other faces us with the truth about our psyche, which tells us why do we create this and this in the first place?

Yeah, I mean that's one of the things that I was very intrigued by is this world of plant medicines and ayahuasca and psychedelics as tools for self inquiry would call it therapy in a way. A lot of people are now embarking on their own ceremonial experiences using plant medicines, especially trips to Peru and taking ayahuasca. But with there being so much information now out there about the power of these psychedelics, I kind of wanted to bring you on to really. To break through some of this information and get clear on how they should be used and why they should be used. And also the integration part, man, because that's the key if people are going to use these things responsibly. They can be tools for amazing benefits, both spiritually, psychologically, sometimes even physically. A lot of people have physical ailments that actually get. They get cured from this as well. I want to know, like, how did your first experience change your perspective on plant medicines? And then I guess, what advice would you have for someone who's thinking about their own experience using psychedelics?

Good question. So. Well, the first time I, when I heard about Gabor Mate and Jack Nabi, I was curious and intrigued by it because they used for therapy for drug addicts and they had a high rate of success, but got Gabor got shut down because it was illegal in Canada. So that's why I went to Peru to do this experiment experience. And it changed my career in that before I had this idea of myself to become this animator and illustrator teaching art and music, because I've always taught art and music. And it changed it to my roots to become a therapist, a healer. And that first trip basically made me think of myself, how can I contribute to this community? And what kind of healing modality should I choose? Because I didn't want to go to school to become a doctor or necessarily study psychology or any other longer kind of studies which might not fit to my character being an artist using all kind of arts and music and clay and play and all this. So that was my first trip that question came up for me. And that's what it changed for me, that suddenly I wasn't so sure anymore to go to school and spend thousands of dollars to get a BFA in animation or illustration. And I was also curious about that experience because I hear they're singing in there. And I learned from one of my teachers and mentors, Emery Boudreau, saying that the voice is the most powerful tool musician has. And I was curious, how do they sing to people and what do they sing? And why is it called vine of Death? That all fascinated me since I was working with dying occasionally and with people grieving and suffering from loss. That's one main draw why I wanted to go to Peru.

So, like, was your first experience, was it with ayahuasca? Was it with other. You try other psychedelic drugs before you dived into ayahuasca? Like, how did you know the time was right to then go out to Peru and take on this It's a pretty. It's a pretty big thing. It's a pretty big ritual and ceremony to take on. How do you know it was the right time?

Well, I felt a call to it to go to South America with a friend and. Because I felt stuck, because I wasn't so sure what to do anymore as well, and I was very curious about it. So I, for me, I saw it also more like a. Like an educational trip for myself and a curious trip. And of course I saw myself more. I felt myself more as. What else in me, what else can I offer? Because after this first trip, I decided to become a therapist. And I. Through my inquiry, I learned that Expressvar therapy would be the best fit, which would mean that none of my skills I bring already in with working with sound and music and essential oils and smells or any other ritual use I've already familiarized myself with would get lost. So that was my choice to go to. That came out basically out of my first trip.

So then how does. If, if. How does someone know if. If their time's right, like not everyone should go out and, you know, experience these, These type of. Type of healing experiences.

You, You, I guess you feel the, the call for it. You feel the call for it in a sense that, I don't know, maybe you, you, you. You watched a documentary and it's just keep being in your head and just feel a call to go down there. Because western, you tried all kinds simply get lost by arriving back in the West.

Yeah, mate. That integration part is something that's so key to this whole experience in this world of psychedelics, which is, which is what I believe a lot of people leave out is the integration element. So do you mind walk. Walk us through some of the integration part because like how. If someone has a transformative experience, whether it's in Peru or wherever it may be, how do they then integrate this back into the everyday life? Does. Do a lot of people have sudden shifts where all of a sudden they take a completely different direction? I guess that's one thing that scares me about it. I've never. I've never done an ayahuasca experience before, but it's something that's been. It's crossed my mind, but I want to make sure that I do it properly. And I know the integration part is vital, and I'm curious to know, how does that process unfold?

Well, for the integration part, I would use Dr. Gabor's and Sadharam Kaur's compassion inquiry approach and which basically questions people what's underneath their beliefs and what drives them. Right. For example, thinking of yourself not being good enough or not being pretty enough or. Or not smart enough or all those beliefs which we carry around our lives. And the integration part would look like that we put light on that and that I also make sure that. Because often I just hear people over the phone, maybe or Skype because they're overseas or anything like that, that I make sure that they have a certain kind of self care, fundamental ready, such as yoga or meditation or hiking in the forest or any arts, anything where they can express what words often can't, that would be beneficial. Any expression, anything, what helps them to slow down, to go in their senses. Because everything is so fast. And that's why often people feel so, so challenged in that, in that perspective.

So you help people with the creative expression element through art, through sound. What in the. When you say art, what does that involve? Is that just expressive writing and drawing?

And yeah, this could be. That could be writing. It could be painting, dancing, Anything, Anything even. I mean, even if I give you a piece of clay or wire and ask you, how do you feel right now? Not the typical how are you? Fine? Respond, but like what's really happening underneath? Because when we say fine, it doesn't really describe how we feel, just a statement, right? And with doing that, you can't just put a label on it. So you really express yourself through the arts, which literally means you avoid words which are often limiting the experience of whatever you experience and whatever you need to express. And then through that, I would ask you, what would that piece say if it could speak? Right. Or what was your challenge in creating this piece? Or were there any surprises in creating such a sculpture or such a character on paper, etc. Etc.

Yeah, I think I find that super cool. How do we encapsulate Medicine Art into this as well? How does that play into it?

Yeah, so medicine, my brand is called Medicine Art because I've started in 2008, way before I even thought of becoming a therapist. I was still super duper drawing eight hours a day, people in the subway in Toronto, going up and down there, what I started to do, because I always worked in that field of bereavement and palliative care. Since I'm a teenage, I've heard just so much, so much stories and so much grief. And I never really realized that I captured their experience and their beliefs about themselves sometimes. And after drawing, for example, one of my friends believes that she carries the past with her and it's such A heavy past. And she doesn't let it go because her beliefs are stuck, that she's not good enough or she's not pretty enough or anything like that, that she carries that with her. And so I started to draw a guy with a huge bag on his backpack and carrying that through his life. Or I drew a roller coaster going up and down with a smiley, a sad smiley and a heart and a broken heart, which was an experience, an expression I did from a person who has borderline and who feels up and down every day like there's no. There's no constant state they have where they're happy for, let's say a few weeks until they get their bills or whatsoever. They're up and down every day. And that helped me. Medicine art basically helped me to help people to point towards a certain experience they might have through the illustration I have done to address certain emotions they have might never been able to express in such a simple and easy way. That means that they can avoid to talk over something painful at all. So it basically makes a shortcut through a challenging experience you had in your life. For example, an overbearing father, where I drew an illustration, someone saying, you're not good enough. And then the person walks away with a thought bubble carrying on the back saying, not good. That's what medicine art also does.

Yeah. So if someone wants to take part in the medicine art, then can they seek people like you? Like, how do they then take action on that? I haven't come across many people who incorporate that kind of therapy. Where does someone go if they want to take. Like, take this, Take this direction.

Oh, medicine, medicine, art. Well, you have to see me in Vancouver.

That's the first step.

Yeah, I guess so. Or. Or I guess through Skype, it could work too. Actually, I never thought of that because I have the illustrations on hand so I can show it through the camera. And that way, kinda, I kind of avoid that. Classical. So that classical question, so how was your childhood, Jordan? You know, so it allows to use art as an expression to talk about certain challenging topics right away. Of course, I will question more along the. Along the line to see how things were along your life and your childhood. But the medicine art really helps to cut through long conversations, arduous conversations, painful conversations.

Yeah. And that's super. That's super cool. For people who don't feel comfortable expressing themselves through language, then that's, that's. It's just a different way of getting to the root of some of these underlying emotional issues that people might have which is. Which is different to traditional therapy, right. Where people are asked to kind of communicate this stuff, where all of the times emotions sometimes can't be communicated through language.

Yeah.

How do you communicate love through language? That's one example of it. So, mate, that's super cool. I'm just so fascinated by this and the term. I want to bring up the term mindfulness trainer because I find that title interesting. Do you mind elaborating on that? What's a mindfulness trainer?

Mindfulness trainer. Well, my. My first mindfulness training, basically, I would say if I had any guru or any teacher, it was. It was death. I learned so much from that. So, so much from being aware. Being aware that everything can end suddenly. Your friends can die, your family members can die, which I've experienced with my brother and with my family in general. My brother is still alive. I lost my parents very young, in my probably mid-20s. And that made me really realize that things suddenly just simply can end. And not just then, but even when I was younger because of my mom, because she was so open and educative about death. Plus, I was sitting beside my grandma when she was passing. I would say I was allowed to hold her when she was actually passing. And to go back to the mindfulness training, well, you just. I just suddenly sat out there and thought how everything is connected, how we rush through life and don't see certain things which will. Which will nourish us and inspire us or guide us. How we are always just rushing through. And death told me, like, hey, just slow down, slow down. Watch what's. What's happening around you, what's in your senses right now. Look at this tree. Won't be the same tree in five or 10 years. Maybe it's even gone. Or look at the ocean, look at the waves. This wave comes right now in, but then it's gone. All that kind of inspired me to slow down. And one major big part now I'm a tangent towards plant medicine, plant medicines again, is fasting. Fasting also really, really helped me to slow down and be more mindful about things. I eat things, I say things, I do things. I think that part was also a very big part with helping me to become more mindful, which is why I offer that to people when they come into my therapy session, to put them into their senses and to challenge them to slow down and watch them, how they're doing certain things.

Absolutely love that. It's something that I'm constantly working through as well. And I think when I had my first Coach. Her name is Jennifer Merrifield. She was actually on this podcast a few episodes ago. That was something that she really brought my attention too, was don't. Don't try and rush through phases in life. Slow down and ask, what, what, what am I? What can I learn here? What am I learning in this, in this phase? And sometimes it does take a mindfulness coach or a life coach or just a friend who can bring your attention back to this moment to see what, what, what can. What can I learn now? Yeah, I love that. I love that whole slowdown concept because, yeah, for me, that's something I'm always battling with, is the momentum of the mind that constantly looking for the next. What do I need to do next? Where am I going? What am I doing? And it's reminding myself to come back to this moment, slow down, what can I learn here and now?

Exactly. Which is hard because we carry those little genies with us, right. Call them cell phones. You rub them and something comes out of it. You get parcel to your home or I don't know. Or you get another response for it. They're also helping to speed things up and to make us actually very unconscious. And walk and basically text the talk rather than walk to talk. Right.

Too many people are texting to talk these days.

Those are a little tricksters. Absolutely. And they help people to get out of sorts and get out of. To themselves. And that's when I tell people. I often ask people, when was the last time you saw Dr. Dr. Forrest? Right. So you get it right. They go into nature and put your phone off and no, don't, don't do selfie right now. Maybe don't show everybody, hey, I'm in the forest. This constant need to share can be a tricky kind of thing as well. To not to be present at all or mindful or even really feel what's happening for you right now.

It's funny you should say that, because I actually, I've just come back from a weekend away up north here in Ontario, spent. Spent the weekend away off the grid, no electricity. It didn't touch my phone for three days.

Oh, wow.

And it was exactly what you just said. It was something that I noticed in myself that, yeah, I was getting caught up in the sharing and the phone genie. And I was like, it's time to get back and connect with nature and that simple practice of slowing down. For me, nature, like you said, is just so powerful and doing that. And it kind of filled me with more clarity when I came back. And I think it's something that people should be more aware of. The times when you are starting to get overwhelmed, the mind is starting to keep you trapped in a cycle of looking to the next moment for fulfillment. And that's when the slowdown aspect comes into it.

Yeah, that's a big part, how addiction plays a role because you always look for everything external, what makes you happy, but not internal. Right. To be appreciative of, of the, of the moment. And that's how the addiction ball, I like to call it, starts to roll. And when people, if people would ask me, how do you start that? I would say, I love to. Every time when I eat in the morning, I just light a candle. That way I put myself into the senses or light an incense. Right. And give thanks. Give thanks, show gratitude. What do you have? What's happening right now when you eat? You know, now we go back to mindfulness. When I, when we talked about being a mindfulness trainer to put people back in their senses, for example, what did that apple need to be on your plate? You know? Or what did that peanut butter need to be on your, on your toast? You know, so think about all those things. All the sun, the rains it had, people who harvested it, the bees pollinating it, all, all that is happening. That all that happened in my mind when I was fasting or when I had near death experience or a psychedelic experience. All those things are very similar to each other and they help me to slow down. And that's something I really recommend. Slow down, Phone off. Maybe just for the breakfast time. Give thanks, light a candle and that will really help you to ground and to slow down.

Yeah, mate. So powerful. Like, because it was so relatable for me at the moment. And I'm seeing how, how that simple act of slowing down and just being grateful for little things can really just quell the momentum of the mind. And I mean, there's actually so many things I want to bring up here, but I want to be mindful of your time as well. But I guess I want to rewind back briefly to the death element, the near death experience that you spoke about, because I know it's a difficult thing to talk about for a lot of people and I know you work directly with a lot of people who are going through grieving experiences, near death experiences.

What.

What has death taught you? And I guess what do you want other people to know more about? Death?

Yeah, death for sure. I always drew that illustration, I haven't published it yet. With, with the guy with the rope and his typical Typical. How do you call that thing? He cuts off the souls when he cuts the fields. Forgot how that thing is called in English. In German you say sense. Anyway, he has his hands on a little child's shoulder and the child looks up on it and it says, thank you. Thank you for teaching me to be in the moment. Thank you for teaching me to be. To slow, to slow down. Thank you for teaching me how to forgive, how to be, how to be mindful, how to give thanks for what I have, for not holding grudges. Thank you to help me to see reality how it really is and how, how temporary it is. And thank you for seeing, for helping me to see the magic in nature through that lens. Because otherwise you just don't pay attention because you, you don't, you don't allow yourself to go into something such as a flower or a tree or a sunset or anything. Sometimes those moments, they're just not seen and felt. They're labeled. Maybe. Yeah, it's a sunset. Sure, I've seen tons of those. Yeah, it's a flower or no, it's a tree, you know, so you label it rather than. You're really with it, with that thing. And that's really what death, working with dying really taught me. To be grateful for not having pain, for being able to do what I do as a human being. That can be different for whoever else is working. But that's what really, really, really taught me is to slow down. And that was my best teaching I've ever had from anybody. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, that's something we often forget, isn't it? That we're actually dying to the present moment all the time. You know, as a sun, as a day ends, that's a death to another day as the sun sets. Let's. Yeah. Bring your awareness to all the little deaths that are actually happening all around us. Yeah. Can sometimes make the bigger deaths seem less severe.

And I also don't want to, I don't want to lay on the floor. What it also really brought to my awareness that I constantly always want to work on myself through with my relationships because I really just don't want to have grudges with someone or anything. And I mean that stuff always happens. Doesn't matter how old we become. Relationships become sometimes more challenging because we become more opinionated about things. We're less open minded and less capable of hearing, hearing how others feel about us. Right. If we hurt someone and whatnot. And that is, that is something, that is something that. It really taught me that I always it basically. Death basically taught me about life, not about death. That's the, that's the funny part about it is that people are saying actually, oh no, that's a funny topic. I don't want to, you know, people don't engage into that topic, but it is actually a life coaching topic. That's, that's what I find. And this is also, this is also very important to, to, to know. And this is exactly what I bring into a scenario when someone is dying. If I'm asked to counselor, to coach something or to work with people besides the music, which captures things which words just can't. But that I bring in this knowledge of people being able to forgive, to let go of grudges, as I already said, and to let go of any issues they had maybe with other family members. Death often makes that happen so easily that people can easier apologize to each other and confess saying things. Oh yeah, I was an idiot. Sorry, sorry brother or sorry sister, you know, when they see each other on the deathbed or at the funeral or hospital or something. I've seen that so many times that suddenly just the fact that we realize that we're so temporary, that people become. Yeah, that's a good word actually, to become softer around themselves, softer around who they think they are and who they think they should be. The ego basically became softer.

Yeah, yeah, man. That's one of the. I think that's one of the greatest spiritual practices anyone can kind of incorporate is. Is contemplating death and the temporary nature of all things and how transitory we are. And like you just said, it cuts through the ego's. The ego's barriers between us connecting authentically with other people. And sometimes when we think about how short we are actually here for, you realize that some of these silly arguments or grudges that we hold against people is just particularly family members and loved ones. It's. It's just, it's not, it's not worth it. Like, that's a great spiritual practice to, to incorporate is. Is contemplate. Contemplate death and can see it, try and see it in a more of a positive light. Like. Like what you coach people through is death shouldn't be a. Something that we run from and scared to face. If we face it, then we actually see life from a different angle. We. And I think that's so cool that you do that. I mean, help other. Help others see that as well.

Yeah, thanks. Yeah, it was, It's a, it's always, it's always a challenge for myself too. And it's it's never. It's never. It's never easy to lose someone, and it's never easy to apply what I just said verbally. And I have challenges coming up monthly, weekly, where I put exactly that reflection on myself to say, like, hey, now you're judging right now, or you're thinking negative right now. Like, come on, you know, so that's the challenge about that. That's what it always does to me. But it never becomes easy to go through loss or anything. That's never taught and never learned, really. I find in a sen. That it's not painful and. But life is. Is painful. That's what life often is all about. And we just can't grow out of our. We just can't grow in our comfort zone. That's something. Something that sucks. But it's how it is. Right?

Yeah. Breaks the pain or doesn't kill us. Makes us stronger.

Yeah, kinda.

Yeah. Ivan, I want to. I want to bring up Dr. Gabor, mate. Is that correct?

Yeah.

Because I know when I met you, I sensed the influence he had on you through his work, and I want to. I want to find out more about how he impacted you and how his work through therapy and other similar forms of. Well, you did. You worked alongside him. Was that correct?

No, not at all. Not at all. I've. I've read his books. 1 When the body says no was one of the biggest impacts to me. It really. It really, really inspired me. And it connected me also to my. To my mother as well, because.

She.

Always told me a lot of. A lot of disease start to happen in our minds. A lot of things, that's how they start. And then we create certain behaviors and certain postures, and that's how we create certain. Certain issues and challenges. And I like that. He kind of does the same thing. He says, the body will tell you, it will tell you no, and even if you don't hear it, it will make you sick. That's how loud it can be, how loud it can say no, and it can go further, that you can even die from something like that. Right. And that's what he inspired me to. And on top of it, his work in Mexico and his documentary with Dr. Jacques Mabit, who has this healing center called Takiwasi. And that really, really inspired me where I thought, like, I really wanted to go back to Peru and reconsider my career, wanting to become an animator and wanting to look into plant medicines, which is why I went for six months. He really inspired me to. To try this out Before I choose any therapy modality for myself which would fit to myself. That's what he, that's what he did. And right now I'm enrolled into a course called Compassion Inquiry led by him and Sadharam Kaur and she also, she and him, they had this program called Beyond Addiction. There's actually a website called like that and it's basically the yogic path to recovery from addiction. And Gabor's method of compassionate inquiry, where we reflect people's beliefs and what drives them in their daily lives, basically.

Yeah. I'm yet to read any of Gabor's books, but it's certainly on my radar and I'm intrigued. Where would you suggest someone starts if they want to see, start to dig more into his, his stuff?

Oh, I, I, I has tons of videos on YouTube and his books are, his books are great. And yeah. And he is probably, maybe he's in your town where you can take a course to take part of one of your seminars. And that really helped a lot of people, I believe, where he kind of reflected what they're run by and what their beliefs are about themselves and how those beliefs kind of hurt them and how they're not compassionate towards themselves and their issues and challenges they have and how to, how to be, how to basically be kinder to yourself. And that's what those seminars really are. What that seminar was about when I was there, where he called people up to stage and he asked them about themselves and they told him what kind of challenges they had and he helped them to see those beliefs underneath.

Yeah, man. It's one of my, one of my favorite quotes is when you have unconditional love for yourself, you step into an entirely new energy field. And it wasn't something that I really took on board until I started working here at a healing clinic in Toronto at Soul7. And I realized how that is one of the primary things that people struggle with the most. It's that self love and loving the self first. If you can't love yourself first, then healing becomes very difficult. And that compassionate self inquiry is something that I'm fascinated by. And that's why the work that you do and the work that Gabor does is, is so powerful because it's helping people love every part of themselves. The dark and the light.

Yeah, yeah. It teaches them they still need to love themselves. He doesn't do that for them, but yeah, it definitely shows them how they're beating himself up with certain beliefs and, and how it's more hurtful and harmful and why they do what they do. Yeah, Yeah.

I want to be, again, mindful of your time. I've got a couple more questions, mate, and then I'll let you go. But before I ask them, if people want to learn more about you and your work, I know you have an amazing YouTube channel. Iveno.

That's right.

I V E N O.

That's right.

People can watch your sound, your sound healing videos on there as well. Where else can people connect with you online, man? And dig into yourself.

Yeah. The artist name is Ivan O. Spell the word given, take the G away, and then you got Ivan the right spelling. It's with E in the middle. And then just add do at the end. Ivan O. One word. And you can find me on SoundCloud, Bandcamp, Facebook fan page and YouTube as well. And I've started an Etsy thing, but I haven't fallen through with it. I think also Amazon merch. I love to create and love to draw. In my heart, I'm really a therapist and a healer, but with that comes my education in arts and graphic design and illustration and all that. And my medicine art. I really encourage people to check out my medicine art on redbubble there as well. Ivan O. I have unpacking stuff on YouTube which you can find where I talk about the products, whether they're good or not. And there's links in there. The medicine art, as I already said, they help, really, people who inspire, to guide, to heal, to question. They can be helpers. You can give medicine art to other people. For example, the forgiveness card or the self care card or the respect card. I've drawn all those topics and you can say things with an illustration rather than with words. And it might help friends or loved ones to see things differently. I believe it's very powerful and yeah, I appreciate people. Check it out. Drop a comment. And yeah, that's it for my. For my online presence. Thanks.

Yeah, I love it, man. So plenty of places where people can connect with you. I'll definitely link them up in the show notes for this episode.

Thank you.

And my friend, I know you have a. You have a profile on Maps for people who don't know what Maps is. Do you mind giving us some background on that?

Oh, yeah. Geez, I hope I get it together. MAPS stands for Multi. Multidisciplinary association for Psychedelic Studies. And they. They have all those doctors and researchers who are helping to put research on, let's say also plant medicines or MDMA for psychotherapy and people with ptsd. And they make amazing research in that field and help put light on it and educate people about certain medicines and the whole harm reduction aspect of it as well. And they connect people with resources for people like me who help people to integrate experience or, or for people who are interested in certain research projects or certain medicines. And yeah, they put a lot of light and knowledge about that topic. And I believe they also made the first privately funded clinical study, I believe in history actually ever, which was the MDMA Assisted Psychotherapy Study, which are also. There's some amazing, amazing books out there for people to read through that. And yeah, connecting to Maps.

Few of.

My doctors, I don't really have superheroes as doctors. Sorry, I don't really have superheroes as leading figures. They became more doctors, which I admire and I love for their work. So from Spider Man, I changed my superhero to let's say Gabor Mate or James Fadiman or also another cool guy is Neil M. Goldsmith. All of them have amazing books about psychedelics and harm reduction because people do it anyway, but you want them to do it in a respectful way and by also not getting hurt. That has to be said. And one of the books I really recommend from those guys is Psychedelic Healing from Neil M. Goldsmith and another one, the Psychedelic Explorer's Guide by James Fadiman. Both of them have also videos on YouTube and you can watch, listen yourself and watch yourself smart through them to make sure that you take the right path.

Yeah, beautiful, Mate, thanks for sharing that. It's great to see that through the work of Maps and other and other people now speaking openly about the benefits of psychedelics that the stigma is starting to lift a little bit.

Yes, it is, which is good.

And I guess what's something do you want people to take away from this conversation around plant medicines and other healing that you partake in? What do you want? What do you, I guess for people to take away and for society, I guess to take away in general through the work that you've done. What have you realized that some of these misconceptions around plant medicine?

Well, this whole idea of going to the jungle and drinking ayahuasca or going to Mexico, having pot or San Pedro, it's coming back and it was never gone. It just disappeared for a while. It's something we have done thousands of years ago. Thousands of years ago, way before we heard anything about, about ayahuasca or any other plant medicine retreats. And those, those things come back. So they are somehow in our genetics. And they, they do, they do promote healing. But it's a healing it's sometimes not really adaptive to the Western beliefs and cultures because we live in such boxes. So I really warn people to just easily dive into such an endeavor. For example, to go to Peru and don't do any research on it or don't know what retreat you go to. This whole realm has to be respected, has to be very humbly approached because you see the truth of yourself and who you are and whether you're not comfortable with will be there. It will be in your face, especially depending on what dose you take from whatever substance. So I kind of want people to be cautious about such substances because plants have two characteristics. One is not necessarily a bad one, but a good and a bad one. And one of them from plant medicines can, can mean that they make you freak out, right? Because you don't want to see the truth. And especially if you push it back, it pushes you back harder. If experience you don't like and you're not able to have a guide with you, not able, the guy telling you you have to hold your experience now, just hold it, don't judge it, don't push it down or anything, that can be very dangerous. So I really want people to be safe doing all those psychonaut endeavors which are very trendy anyway these days and I hear it quite often. And I really don't want people to just have them for parties or any other things. They're way too sacred to do that. So really, really, really, really respect it. You're, you're, you're dealing with an entity which can slap back at you if you're not approaching it respectfully. And I also include their. Cannabis and marijuana, especially edibles, have to be very, you have to be very cautious about those things. Make, make a ritual, give thanks and connect to it and slow down. Don't just go into it because you will, you will fall in your face if you, if you do so.

Yeah, very well said, my friend. I guess that we should put the disclaimer out there that we, I guess we don't condone this type of, this type of. Yes, this action. I'm, I'm someone that would openly admit that I have tried mushrooms in the past, but that's me and I was ready, I was ready for that experience. And that doesn't necessarily mean everyone's ready for that experience. It's something that people should gauge for themselves. And I guess for me to throw my two cents in to that is I think people should begin some form of inner work or self inquiry before even looking at taking these types of medicines.

Yes.

For me it was meditation. I, I strongly believe meditation can actually have just as a powerful effect as some of these, some of these medicines. And that's how I knew I was ready, is I was prepared to face whatever was going to come up. And that's so important for people who are thinking about trying. This is you got to be ready, like you said at the start of this interview, that you got to be ready to take that dive and be prepared for whatever comes comes up.

Yeah, exactly. And for whatever. It all depends what dose you take. That will also decide whether what you will see and what you won't see. Right. Otherwise would just be a stimulant towards your senses. But if you take higher doses, it can be really a psychotherapist to that sense, but which will be very honest and also challenge you and really important also meditation is awesome. Yoga is awesome. Also super duper important. Often overviewed is fasting juice fast, water fast. My longest water fast was almost two weeks juice fast a week. That can be also such a psychedelic experience. Right. So I encourage people to do before they do any plant medicines or fast from your life in general and see how that feels. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. Thanks man. I think fasting is something that I want to, I want to try longer form fasting. Is this an element of preparation that needs to go into that as well before someone dives into a two week juice fast?

Well, juice, juice fast I would say is less complicated. There's tons of instructions on the social medias, youtubes and whatnot and books out there. Water fast. I would for sure have more caution. For example, I just recently learned before I did it hardcore, just water fast and dove right into it. But as I age I just can't do that anymore and I can't handle it as well. You just start to eat more lightly with either juice or water fast. To switch your complete diet off from meat or any dairy products, milk, anything like that, or even fish or anything unhealthy. Just to scale it all down before you go into any juice fast where you just fast in general with the food and also with your senses, with what you watch, what you hear, what you do. Like reduce your time on social media. Let's say if you walk around with your genie in your face everywhere, try to avoid fast for that and see how that. Because when you do it fast and all of a sudden you dive into the social medias and you come across all those quotes and spiritual keyboard warrior things and they can really hurt you. They can really hit you hard, especially when you're on just a water fast. Certain quotes and little videos, they can really, they can really confuse you. They can be dangerous. So fasting also in a material way.

Yeah, absolutely. Love that. Yeah. And it's something I want to start doing more of because it is as you realize how hard it is sometimes to people forget their phone and they have like freak outs like holy shit, my phone's more than 2 meters away from me. And people get, get start to get scared fast from technology and social media is something that I think we should all start to practice more of, including myself. Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks for, thanks for all that.

Thanks, man. I guess our time together is coming to an end, but I guess one last question before we, before we take off. The podcast now for me has been about inspiring people to take purposeful action. I kind of realized that you can read all the books you want, you can listen to all the podcasts you want, watch all the videos, but unless you take action on the information that you absorb, you aren't gonna really notice any significant changes in your life because knowledge without action is just potential. It's untapped potential. So I really want to focus on giving people purposeful action. So people who have obviously listened to this point in the podcast are clearly on some sort of spiritual path or a path of deeper self inquiry. And I guess the beauty of the podcast is people can chew on bits of information and spit out the parts that aren't resonating with them, but also take on board the stuff that is. So if you could leave some purposeful action orientated advice from someone after listening to this podcast, whether that be in the field of plant medicines or other mindfulness training techniques, what do you want to leave people with?

Give thanks. Get up in the morning, give thanks. Light a candle, Give thanks. Give thanks for what you have. Because it's not a question whether you're palliative care or end of life. The truth is you never know when you go. So give thanks. You never know when your last day will come and when you really realize that, just give thanks. It will enhance your yoga and your meditation and whatever else you do with your practice. Give thanks.

Thank you, brother. I want to give thanks for you, for our connection and, and the universe has brought us together and I'm super grateful for that. And you've shared so much valuable information on this. Thanks podcast man. So thank you.

Thanks. Thanks for calling me and thanks for inviting me. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thanks guys for listening. And check out Ivano YouTube I would love that. Thank you. Bye bye.

Thanks guys. Thank you so much for tuning in. As always, if you would like to leave a rating or review, please do so on itunes. Also, if you've got friends or family members who might be considering using psychedelics, or if they're going through a difficult period and experiencing loss or death in their family or someone close to them, share this episode with them. And of course, reach out to Ivan or me and we'll see you in the next episode. Take care.