SSP145: Relationships, Health, & Masculine - Feminine Dynamics with Lincoln Westerman

Hey, guys, what's going on? Welcome back to the podcast. Looking forward to sharing today's interview with you. This is actually an interview that I was invited onto with a good friend of mine, Ryan Gleason. When I was back in Perth, we dove into a lot of the things around healthy masculinity and how men can show up more powerfully in relationships. And I was just sharing some of the recent insights and clarity that I was gathering in my own journey, in my own relationship. And at the time, I was spending about two to three months away from Amanda, my partner. And it was during that time that I got so much understanding and realizations around how I could be showing up better. And it was just fresh for me to share some of this with you guys. I wanted to just preface this by saying I'm by no means an expert in the things that I'm talking about, but these are fresh insights and lessons on how to be a better man, how to lead with more conviction, more assertiveness in your relationship as a man. If you're a woman watching this too, then there's going to be some good value for here as well, because this is what you get to declare is we get to open yourself to receiving and almost demand a high standard in the men that you're attracting. So I'm looking forward to looking forward to you watching this and listening to this interview today. And if you get some value from it, make sure you check out Ryan Gleason's podcast. He's a legend. Make sure you subscribe to the State Shifters podcast and this channel, if you haven't already. Enjoy the conversation, provide financially, satisfy your woman in the bedroom. Have your life in order. And some of that is healthy masculinity, but without the it doesn't mean shit.

Jordan Candlish is a performance coach and creator, helping high performers think less and.

Feel more so they can connect deeper in relationships.

Why do you think men are struggling?

No clear guidance, no role models, no honest reflections.

Do you find a lot of men go for someone like their mum?

Well, unconsciously we do.

Why do you think that is? Because what's the most important question a man needs to ask himself?

Who am I? That's a question we ask ourselves or a man should be asking himself throughout his entire life.

What do you think the ultimate therapy is for men?

Oh.

Jordan, welcome.

Good to be here, brother.

You've worked with a lot of men over the years, so why do you think men are struggling?

No clear guidance, no role models, and no honest reflections in their life. I can expand on that if you want, but yeah, expand, yeah. I don't know about you, but I didn't get any really clear guidance around what does it mean to be a man who's in his healthy masculine energy? That was never explained to me. I've only just recently tried to figure that out for myself. And I'm still figuring it out. And, and when, you know, what I've realized is it's not until you know, what unhealthy masculinity looks like is when you start to open up to how do I live more in my authentic masculinity? So that's one thing. Having clear guidance as to. And role models to know, okay, that's what it means to be a fucking real man, a real leader. Not just a leader who provides financially, but a leader who provides emotionally can hold a safe space for the woman in his life. And as someone you can depend upon a man of like, integrity of stature, you know, so. And then the honest reflections part is like, we now so many men, me included, when you leave like a sporting environment, say, I played a lot of sport growing up, your coach is giving you an honest reflection of how you're performing and like life. But when you leave a sporting environment where you've got someone there giving you coaching and guidance to be like, yeah, you could do that better, or you're a bit out of integrity here, or you made a mistake there, men just kind of like winging it at home with their families. They like pour all their energy into their business or their work and they come home, there's nothing left to give for their wife. And their wife is, or partner is subtly giving them reflections, but it's shows up in ways that they don't like it, so they shut down and withdraw and pull away.

You know, how did you, before you started taking the journey of understanding what healthy masculinity looked like, how did you think a man was supposed to be.

Provide financially? Yeah, get a good job, Get a good job, you know, make good money, satisfy your woman in the bedroom and just have like, have your life in order. Have your life in order. And some of that to an extent is healthy masculinity like that, that needs to be a part of it. But without the emotional safety piece, it doesn't mean shit. Like, if you can't be stable in yourself emotionally, it doesn't matter how much fucking money you make. Like, your women, your friends, your family, they can't depend on you because you will capitulate when things get overwhelming or Intense because you have no capacity left. And ultimately presence is the best currency out there. You know, we all know that. It's just, it's hard to, it's hard to stay in that state, you know.

Of course, especially if you're, you're a high achiever and you're, and you're used to like working hard, the hustle. You're intelligent, you're, and you, A lot of your self worth is wrapped up in, you know, could be in being a protector provider and just really developing yourself. But as you said, the. How would, how would most guys understand that what emotional safety is? Because for a lot of guys that would just sound like a ridiculous term to them.

For sure. For sure. Can you listen to your partner or someone you care about have a really emotional conversation without shutting down or without feeling attacked? Or can you listen to yourself when you're feeling anxious, angry, overwhelmed, sad, and not judge it and be with it without having a drink, or without fucking burying yourself in work, or without pulling out the phone and flicking through social media? Can you be with it and be like, this is okay, I can be with this. Easier said than done, you know, but until we're able to provide that for ourselves, we're not gonna be able to provide it for someone else. And more specifically, a lot of the men that I speak to, relationships get to the point where they, they're about to fall apart because they can't hold that space with their partner. And then their partner is not able to provide for them in a way in which they need. So the relationship becomes a lot of work and it becomes very draining. And then the spark or polarity starts to dissolve and then you're just coexisting with someone who picks on you and they treat you like your mum. And then you start either withdrawing or attacking.

And it's, it's often not until it hits that diabolical state that everything just, either financially, relationally, probably most of the time both goes to hell in a handbasket. That guys go. And then they become open.

Yeah. And. But they're thinking the whole time like, what the hell am I doing wrong? Like I'm, I'm, I'm working hard. Can't you see all this hard work that I'm doing and I'm buying you nice things or whatever it might be. But if that deeper emotional support system is not there, especially for the feminine, there's going to be a void that they will seek to fill somewhere else. Same with us if we don't, if we're not Filling that emotional void that's there, we'll unconsciously seek to fill it in some other way. And usually it's unhealthy.

And how would a guy emotionally support a woman in the best way? Assuming he's busy, relatively successful, got a lot of stress, trying to juggle, health, fitness, business, how. How would he best support his partner?

Yeah, that's a good question. Man, I, and I have not figured this out, so I want to free face that I'm a work in progress. But as I'm figuring it out, I'm like more inclined to want to share what I'm learning, you know. But one thing that I realized, this is for the nice guys out there. There's a lot of guys that, you know, I work with, and me included, who've gone through that, like the nice guy tendencies. Pleasing, want to do everything right, not setting strong boundaries and then almost getting passive with decision making. And this is what I've realized is a big thing that a lot of men can do to support their woman is provide some order or structure around the house in terms of help alleviate some of the decision making pressure that your partner has to make. Planning dates, helping her around the house around, like just taking care of things so she's not coming home flustered or overwhelmed. Start to get in the habit of creating that structure around like, hey sweetheart, like we're going on a holiday. I've narrowed down a few options for hotels. Which one do you want? And that simple bit of structure like, or like, hey, here are the options that I've mapped out for dinner tonight. Which one calls to you most? Most men are just like, I don't know what I want. Or like, yeah, you can pick it. Or I'm easy, I'm good. Like, I don't mind, like that, that is not clear direction that can provide your woman with something to be like, oh, okay, he knows what he wants. He's given me some structure, something I can follow. So that's a big thing. Just being more decisive, direct and fucking clear on what it is that you want as a man. And like for some men that can, they can be all good with their, in their business like that and then come home and go passive because they're so burnt out and they're just like full. They drop straight into their feminine. And the wife's the one making all the decisions and leading the house.

Yeah, and women don't want to. I mean we all have the masculine, feminine, feminine tendency. But you don't want to have your, have your partner Particularly a masculine man have to drop into her masculine at home because often they'll have to. A lot of women have to drop into their masculine at work.

Yes.

In order. Especially if they're in sales or management or leadership or they're entrepreneurial themselves. And I find, I really feel for a lot of women who have that, you know, those roles that are, they're, they're, they're tougher, they're real masculine roles where they have to be very clear, direct and eat a lot of and be very resilient and you think that's amazing. But then drop into the family life or drop into even just being a partner and then for them to get out of their masculine state. How would you advise a guy to support a partner who has a very masculine role but to help her get back in a feminine.

Yeah, man, it's hard. That's a hard one. Yeah, for sure. Because like, that's where you've got even more responsibility to be. Like when, when it's okay for her to be in a masculine and be in the mind and doing, doing the role, whatever it might be. But when she comes home, like, you do not want your woman staying in that role because like, you don't want to be fucking bossed around. Like, yeah, that's not attractive. Not attractive. So then it's like, okay, what do I need to give myself so that I can provide that element of safety or grounding? I feel like that's, that's the one thing. Like, be that grounding rod for her to be like, hey, come back to your body. Like, what are you feeling? Hey, just relax. You got the night off. Come relax. I've prepped dinner, everything's prepped, organized. You come home, you can chill, gonna have a bath, breathe. And I'm here. I got it. Like that level of self accountability or that level of control, self control can really, like from a nervous system perspective, start to rub off on the person you're around. And they can just exhale and be like, oh, okay, I've had a long day, but I'm good. Rather than coming home and still thinking that they have to take care of everything.

Yeah. I think a lot of that's because the guys are a bit wishy washy and they're, they're inconsistent and they become slightly more passive.

Yeah.

And then the more passive they become, the more masculine she'll become. And I've got like, there's some guys on, I. One of my does very well. Like, he makes, he makes, he makes quite a fair Bit of money and he makes it not working long hours, he probably does not even 35 hours a week. Does very well. Does very well and is actually very good at in terms of helping with the kids. He's very available as a partner for a guy who earns as much money as he has. But as his partner is also, you know, wanting to get back into her business. Wouldn't earn anywhere near. Yeah what he would. But because I've seen his nature, he's just become more and more passive and just not owning his masculine. But also he's like someone that's been very inconsistent as well and bit wishy washy. And as opposed to being very grounded with his career, what he wants to do, still support his partner, which he does. But then just seeing this like start the. His career slightly have to erode and, and get put on the back burner when it's totally unnecessary for sure. And then that just builds resentment.

Totally man on both ends. Exactly.

Because no woman, even if she's in business and she does very well, she's intelligent, she wants to have that career and go for it, that's great. But if the guy's got, he's going career and he, they've got a family, yeah, he'll want to support. But there's ways of if you both one successful and the other one's fairly successful, you can, you can make it work. You can. And if you've got that, the beauty is you have financial resources, you know, and you can pay people to do a lot of, a lot of stuff that you don't need to do that like another couple might not have the.

Resources to free up bandwidth and most importantly have like check ins with each other to make sure that you're on track and communicate.

Man, Man, I'm so, I've just turned 40, right. So. And a lot of my mates are all similar age. Like most of them I'm not married but like most of my mates, married kids, intelligent guys, so intelligent with their career, money, emotionally not intelligent but like they, but they're those guys and you see now that you really start to see things a bit more and you understand that space and you. Traditionally I would have, I would have been fully on their side and just said man, you just, you earn, you do so well, you do everything for your partner. Like she can just give you a bit of slack back. She. When you start to understand it a bit more you're like man, it's actually not that hard. You just have to do X, Y, Z and just like, you know, dial this back and appreciate them a bit here and. And like, your life would be a lot easier. That's like, you're stuck in this, like, high logic, highly stressed out. I do X, Y, Z. Why can't you do this, this, this? But it's like, man, you just need to, like, understand their perspective. They're not blokes, like, which is the amazing thing. You don't want to be with a bloke.

Yeah.

If you're like. Unless you're that way. Like, you're attracted. You're attracted to the ferry. Don't. You don't want to say. But you need to. I think learning. And a lot of guys.

No one taught us that, bro.

No. And then. And a lot of guys, because they are intelligent. And the thing is, they have that ego. I understand people. I'm socially smart. Xyz. And they don't fucking listen. Even not. They're definitely not gonna listen to their partner, but they don't even listen to blokes. And when do they listen? When it all goes to hell in a handbasket. And I almost sometimes need that.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. And it doesn't have to be like that. Which is why the more you listen to yourself, the easier everything else gets.

Definitely.

Yeah.

Where. How do. How do guys become people pleasers?

Well, the generation of my generation and probably your generation as well, where, like, our fathers had to sacrifice a lot to provide for our families. And there was our father's pretty much to disassociate from any sort of emotional experience because there was just no safety for that back then. And what that turns into is a father who is not present or is not emotionally available for his. His son. And then the son has to be. The son gets conditional love from that dad based on performance or achievement. And what often happens is, like, for the people pleasers or the nice guys, there is this fear of upsetting the father, the fear of not winning the father's love. Because I don't know about you, but growing up, if I didn't behave, I got fucking. You know, my dad got angry at me. And that anger created this, like, fear in my nervous system of letting people down. It was a fear of, like, confrontation. And that fear of confrontation creates an unhealthy relationship with anger and anger. A man must have a healthy relationship with anger because anger is a primal response to someone crossing your boundaries. And what happens is with these nice guys or people pleasers, they're not good at setting boundaries because they're afraid of confrontation. And what ends up happening is people start crossing their boundaries and. And then they get angry, but because they don't know how to express their anger, it stays in their body and then starts leaking out as, like, passive aggressiveness, irritation or, like, impatience or just. They start, you know, shutting down or isolating from people. All signs of suppressed anger. So anger is usually the first place that I go when I'm working with a man. What's his relationship like with anger? Because then that will reveal where a lot of these buried emotions are stemming from. You know?

Definitely. A lot of. A lot of people think people pleasers are nice guys. It's like, man, they're like some of the most pissed off.

Manipulative.

Manipulative, Resentful. You know, I've always. Have you heard of, like, a white knight?

I. I think so, but maybe.

Why not? Why not? White knights are like those guys that they, like, just try and hang around and be, like, nice to girls. And they. They just did this. Waiting there.

Yeah.

In the wings, just for weak moments so they can get in as opposed to just actually, like, having a crack and throwing it out there and, you know, you sure?

We all know a few of them.

Yeah. You either. You either have a crack, you win, or you lose, and you walk on and you go on your merry way. Like, they're. It's like a form of people pleaser. They like. They try. It's very manipulative. You try and go under the radar, and it's just like. It's very. It's very deceptive as well. And they're like. They're just such a. I couldn't imagine for how bad it'd be for a woman to be with a people pleaser. And that's a scale. And everyone's got some degree of people pleasing, but like a full people pleaser because they just totally dishonor themselves. And they're so pissed off because, like, everyone. No one respects them. Everyone walks all over him.

Yeah.

They can't communicate what they want, and you can imagine how pissed they'd be.

Yeah. And it's just. I have compassion for them because I know I had to go through. And I went through all of those tendencies, the nice guy tendencies. People pleasing, not being able to express myself. But the way out is you have to stop being a coward, essentially. And it doesn't matter how much hard shit you do on an external level, whether it's in a business or go to the fucking SAS retreats, whatever it is, if you're not willing to confront the shame that back there, your deepest, darkest secrets, you've been account. And that cowardness will show up is behavior that is inauthentic, and that's what people pick up. And that's why those nice guys and people pleasers aren't able to hold, like, real depth in their relationship or they don't garner the respect that they really want is because they're hiding. And I, like, I have compassion for her, but at the same time, it's like, it's time to stop hiding, like, come out. Like, let's just look at it. What are you afraid to look at?

You know, do you feel like there's a lot of abandonment intertwined with it?

So much. Yeah, so much. And I, you know, my father's generation, you know, the baby boom generation, like, they sacrifice so much for us, but at the same time, most of them won't go looking at the shame that's back there. And I get it. Scary.

But I find that generation, they're not as big people pleasers.

No, no.

Like, our generation is so much worse. Every.

Yeah.

Every subsequent generation is. It's interesting. Like, it's. Do you. What role do you think the mother plays?

Well, the mother is.

Spoke about the father.

Yeah. The mother is, is. Is. Your own relationship with your emotional experience is defined by your relationship to your mother.

Yeah.

So if your mother wasn't there for you emotionally, like, she wasn't in touch with her emotion, so she couldn't provide you that well, the feminine support, which is when you think of the word feminine, at least for me, I think nurturance, tenderness, gentleness, compassion, empathy, all of these qualities, you don't have access to them because your mom wasn't able to provide them for you because that's where you're learning it from. So if you don't have a disconnected relationship with your mother, you have a disconnected relationship with your own emotions, you don't know how to feel. Right. And then that then turns into, you know, a man who's not really sensitive in a healthy way. Like, in terms of. He's not going to be able to feel what other people are feeling because he's disconnected from his own emotions or he can't express what he's feeling because he just, he's just in his head, he doesn't know. You ask him, what are you feeling, man? Like, I don't know. I'm all right. I'm good. Like. Like what's going on in your body? Like, that to me is like a disconnected relationship with the, with the mother. If that makes sense.

Definitely. It's a very interesting exercise, is for anyone just to do nothing and see what comes out.

It's probably the most productive and valuable exercise for most people.

Surprisingly uncomfortable as well.

Yeah.

And always anyone I find who I've ever spoke, myself included for a while ago, who would sort of go, oh, look, man, the worst thing ever is just like keeping still, not. Not doing anything. I can't. I can't. Like anyone who's like, I just lose my mind when I'm not doing something.

Yeah.

Like, it's almost just like before I used to be like. Because I'm always such a adhd, like always doing personality. But I mean, that's. That's part of. It's my wiring. But part of it is a lot of these things that, you know, you are. You are running from. And there's. There's elements of both. There's elements of wiring, there's elements of ambition, there's elements of. You're like, you're, you know, you're masking shit.

Well, there is. There is a wiring. Have you ever read the book Driven by.

Yes.

Doug Brackman, a while ago. Yes. There is a legit DNA wiring. There's a gene mutation called the DRD2 gene that most really high performers will have, which is a gene that affects your. The dopamine pathways, which means a lot harder for. I would suspect you have it. Like, have you done your DNA analysis, anything like that? Well, if you have that gene, like, there's a strong tendency you're going fall into addictive behaviors because you're chasing the dopamine. And I've got that too. So I'm like, fully aware of it shows up in the DNA, and I just now know to offset that, I gotta have time where I'm actively focusing on being in the present moment. And what's helpful is meditation helps, but have an actual setup where. That's why I love drinking tea. I do tea ceremonies now because the whole act of pouring the tea, setting up the tea, it's not. I'm not closing my eyes to meditate, but the movement and the experience of prepping it and drinking it and observing my environment brings me into the. Into the present. So, like martial arts, jiu jitsu, all these things are perfect for these types of driven individuals because it's just like something to ground us back into our bodies, back into now, you know, and.

Even things that are like, beyond martial arts and fitness, they're great. But things that, like, where you have to be a lot more Still.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, because a lot of, like, driven people, I love training hard, working hard. Everything's just like sympathetic nervous system. You know what I mean? Eras, like, for a lot of people, like doing stuff where you just. You're sitting or you're in nature or you're sitting in a sauna and not on your phone. I find for me, man, I'm very much like that. I'm highly dopaminergic seeking as well. And even still, like, I. I know my wiring as well. And like, and I'm. And I have been very prone to addictive tendencies, whether it's, you know, from sex, from work, from, like, you know, phone being on the phone. So everything is just dopamine, dopaminergic. So that's where, like, someone like me, it's. I need to create boundaries on myself. So I have to do things where like, either do a sauna and you can't look at your phone or like, oh, no. Even often I'll watch a podcast while I'm doing a sauna and. But that's still, like, I'm still stimulating.

Yeah.

And it's great. I still get value from it because I'm like, oh, I don't get that time to sit there and watch it, which. Which is good. But you need that time where you and I find one practice. I do, I try and do it once a week is I'll go for like an hour and a half walk and try and not look at my phone or not like anything. And it's amazing from doing that, I get so much more value. And when I go through periods of a few months or I don't do that, I'm like. And then you do it again. You go, what the do I stop doing that? The. The insight I get when I do that. And it's never in the first half an hour. It's always about 60 minutes, 70 minutes. And then I get like, clarity over something and I'm like, holy, man. That's actually worth so much more than, you know, going to the gym and smashing another workout. Which I wouldn't, you know, I just wouldn't get that clarity because for me, it's not. Oh, I just need to train harder and more. Some people, that's what they need to do. Me, I'm the other way. I'm like, I need to slow down and, like, get my nervous system and just start to down regulate it.

Yeah. What I've. What I've learned is there is a. The nervous system is like a bank account and the bank account is always needs to be balanced like the balance sheet, it needs to be balanced all the time. So if there, if you're making sympathetic deposits, meaning you're stimulating using stimulated activities such as working out, ice baths, coffee, breath work, all of these things that are activating the sympathetic nervous system. You're depositing energy from the nervous system that check balance needs to be balanced out with parasympathetic based activity. So if you're doing two hours of intensity, there needs to be two hours of rest and relaxation. Otherwise you're slowly, you know, you're slowly going to be at a deficit which then turns into slight depletion. And without realizing you're operating from 70, 60 most of the time thinking that you're, you're on but you're not, you're actually at 60. So that's what I found is like having two rest days in the week where I'm off and it's like 80 parasympathetic Yin I'm chilling the out allows me to then show up like Whoa, I'm 100 today. Like I'm fully charged and I can both like give it everything. And it's just planning the week around that game day, rest day, buffer day. Yeah, yeah.

And it's saying that for people who work hard and they've. It's like when I used to hear that and even now it's the thing I struggle with. Putting boundaries on or not working, not training, not doing these things. But when you do do it like man, the quality work is so much better and quality like so much. You are so much more connected with, with people. You don't need to go to things like oh, get that coffee because I need a coffee because I'm pushing for 10 hours in a day. Correct. And then you're just not present with people and then that's going to affect your sleep and then your sleep's not going to be good. Then you that cycle and you do I really, one of my coaches always said you got to slow down the speed up 100. And in business as well, like sometimes you just, you can't just go bang, bang, bang, bang and think you're going to have this growth and things like you got sometimes you got to go up and this plateau. Allow things to stabilize, get used to it before you, before you boom or before you reset again. Exactly, yeah. And that's something that's like for people who are less like nah, that's you just, you just hustle and you just grind and it's like, I get that. But then there's, there's, there's a massive, there's a massive cost for that.

Well, just. Yeah. If you just look at how an elite athlete operates, are they grinding all the time? Like, we see them perform on gala. If you look at a basketball player right there, the intense schedule. But when they're not playing or training, they're just resting. I've hung out. I got a friend who was a professional football player and I hung out with him when I was in Portugal and he's just training, playing, or literally chilling out, playing FIFA. And he's like encouraged to do that, like rest. So they're just doing three things. Practicing game day and then just rest and recovery. But we don't do that in our business. We're trying to be on all the time. So it's like treat it like a prefet. You're a professional athlete. Rest day is just as important, if not more important than your game day. It's like just need to schedule it.

You know, and even things obviously, I know that stuff that you post as well, which I don't do enough of. Like, it's like scheduling fun and play. Because sometimes you can just be. And I find this myself. You can just be so hyper focused and just go work organized, structured. Boom, boom, boom, train this, that, okay, I might catch up with a mate, catch up with the mate for, for dinner and then this. Then it's like rinse and repeat and yeah, go to bed at the same time, get up at the same time. It's just like this, this structured, structured life with not a huge amount of wiggle room. Which I think for me that sort of works, but it's. I need to actually create more, more play and more fun. Whereas other people, they're the opposite. They're gonna start doing fucking work. They're fucking around.

Yeah, they're probably not listening to this podcast.

No, no, no. So, yeah, that's one thing you got to have. You got to have time for yourself, time for your development, time for your business, time for your mates if you're a partner, time for them. And like, you got to be very. You do. Like, the more, the more you're doing, you can do it, but you just, you got to really run your shit very well and have very good self awareness so that you don't get pulled in different directions. And. Yeah, and I think that's something that, that people pleases. I mean, I'm, I'm more comfortable being a villain. So like, I can sort of like, you know, if I had to go, go to like, you know, partner's two year old's cousin's birthday on a Sunday, I'd just say it's not happening. Like I'd be and I wouldn't be and I'd come across like probably like to the family, ah, he's a selfish, he's this. But in the end I'm like man, if that, if that's my time to like recuperate or spend time with partner or like you know, take my dog, take him for a walk or do different things that allow me to actually fulfill what I need to do because I know like what I'm doing is tough and I'm now developing more and more empathy that Pete, no one knows what the you do. They all think, oh I understand. No one understands what anyone else is going through. So you just got to be comfortable with like you know, knowing yourself, knowing you're doing the right thing for yourself. You don't have to be selfish but like you definitely don't just sacrifice yourself. Like I mean I'm not going to two year old cousins birthdays. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know and just, I think part of that as well is just being able to also communicate that if we don't hide like a coward and go well like, you know, it's not that I don't want to be there, it's just that it's, I've got very little time and I need to do X, Y and Z otherwise I'm not going to be good. And if someone's not happy that's like.

Oh well that's, yeah, that's where the communication piece is, is key.

That's on there.

A lot of guys don't know how to communicate it in a, in a way where it's been understood.

Yeah. Because a lot of people just want to be liked and we do, we all want to be liked. But in the end it's I think you got to be. You can't control other people and having.

The courage to be disliked is a big one for the people pleasing nice guys.

Speaking of which, how one thing I found is interesting recently when people, people project a lot of their shit onto you. So for example like someone like yourself, you're now you've built successful coaching business. You've. And I know you'd work a lot harder than what it seemed like. You'd work behind the scenes, just image drinking tea, chilling, just, just doing retreats with the boys and just chilling and just, just watching all the cash Coming through. Doing nothing. Yeah, so I understand like how much work behind the scenes is involved, but also you get to live a life that's on your terms which, and you get to do things that, in a way that you've got a lot of probably freedom in terms of how you're going to do things. Even though you'd work very hard and still trying to figure it out how, how have you found cause you get to live a life like that. Have you found other people have treated you who, let's just say they haven't had the courage to probably have a crack.

I feel like anyone who hasn't accepted like who I am and how I'm showing up in the world, I've kind of just drifted out of my life to be honest. I, I only surround myself now with people who are full supporting of me and what I'm doing. So. But initially it's it. There was people who I almost felt like would look down on it a bit and be like, who the fuck do you think you are, bro? And I know, I know that was, that was the case. Like dude, I was 25 making like content about how to live authentic, fulfilling life. What the fuck does a 25 year old know? But I was doing it.

Were people saying that to you or is it something you felt without them saying to you?

I think it was something I felt for sure. No one actually said it to me. Yeah, I've had the same and you know, go on just videos online, you see people like projecting their shit on YouTube. But like I don't take anything anyone says online. If someone doesn't know me, like I don't take anything they say to heart at all. If I do, there's something there for me to look at. It's always my mom and dad or someone close to me who will trick me the most. But I know what I'm working on in my life right now. You know, I'm trying to be a little bit more organized and like just plan things ahead, especially with all the traveling and like one comment like my mum or dad would make be like you, you'd be more organized like. And I'm like, okay, yeah, that's there as well. Clearly there's something there for me where I'm like, I know that's an area of weakness for me.

That's the final frontier is getting over those two. Once you get over mum and dad, maybe trigger, that's when you get fully healed. Yeah, I found that as well. It's just probably being more so since I've done content and more traveling more and doing different things. You can feel. Yeah, like probably the same thing, like that whole. And I found it's very interesting that I didn't really see a lot of it before, but then now that. Yeah, you're doing a lot more traveling. You know, when we travel, we work like me and Bernie. We, you know, love doing. It costs a shitload of money and I'm missing out on the opportunity cost of income back. Back in. Me working with Clint is enormous. And that's stuff that people don't. And I'm. I'm not getting. I'm not getting paid for that or anything like that. I mean, I've got my primary business, but people. It's funny how. And that's why I've just learned, like, the more I've been doing it last couple years, I've just gone. It gives a. What people think, you know, I mean, because it's like they're gonna like, just see one element and go, oh. Because they're just projecting their. Of, oh, will you get to travel? It's like, yes, you can also travel.

That's right.

And if you can't, you know, that's. It's on or in. More importantly, why. Why would someone doing something bother you that has nothing to do with you? I can't get my head around that. Why would if, say, for example, someone bought a. A nice car and then that bothered you, or someone went on. Went traveled somewhere or they did something, or they did their wedding somewhere and that bothered that, like, that upset you. You always got to think, it's got nothing to do with you. If something's upsetting you that has nothing to do with you. It's like, go do some work on yourself.

Totally. Yeah. And that's why, again, like, you just wouldn't. Don't surround yourself with people who project that onto you.

Yes.

Yeah. Energetic pollution. Really?

Absolutely. Yeah. How do. How did you. How do you sort of coach your guys to find better circles when they hit that point of. They're like, look, that. That group of guys I was around or that those people aren't sort of serving me anymore and they're going to that next step and they're sort of. They're not at that level to be with that next group of people, but they're not with their previous group.

What I found is it's really great to be around a group of guys or a mentor or a coach who is only like two or three steps ahead of you, and then it's great to be around someone who's like 10 steps ahead of you. And sometimes the guy who's two or three steps ahead of you is the one that will open you up to the circle that you need to be in. So rather than thinking like, oh, like I need to, I need to work with Aubrey Marcus, I need to be like in his circle. Oh no, maybe you can find someone locally is two or three steps ahead of you and open you up to a whole community in your local area which like then expands your network and your ability to find men who are on your wavelength, you know, that's what I found. I feel with a lot of guys that come to my retreats is like, I'm only like two or three steps ahead of them. These guys are pretty dialed in, you know, switched on. But when they come to an event, it's like, boom, there's your tribe, here's your soul family, it's here. And then like that stays with them. Or they join a men's group and they find a soul family and that connection and brotherhood opens something in them. So whether it's in person or online, I would say just like you don't have to look as far as you think.

I agree. I think it's good advice. Yeah. I think often people, they'll look for the guru as opposed to like, you know, literally a couple steps which I think is a pretty. And that goes with anything with business or anything like that as well. Like you don't need to have some guys that made a 10 figure exit or you know, I need him to teach me business. Like if you're just starting business, you just need someone who's got a good. Yeah.

And the advice would be more relevant.

Yeah, exactly.

Right. Yeah. The guru has probably forgotten about the stage you're at and absolutely. To give you like advice that's applicable to that phase in the journey. And I'm sure you've related with that in business. Like there's so many chapters and phases in it. If you're comparing your face to someone else's, you need to work up to that point, you know. So I found that particularly relevant.

No, definitely, definitely. I think it's good. And in terms of like high achievers because I know that's a group that you like, you like to work with the relationships. Do you find a lot of high achieving men, their pool of market for dating women, they get left with emotionally unavailable women who are more interested in financial intimacy due to their lack of available time that they have?

Well, probably, yeah. The the woman that you attract is a reflection of, like, where you're at in your journey, you know? So if you're emotionally unavailable for yourself, then, yeah, you're gonna attract a woman.

Who'S emotionally unavailable for you if you're emotionally available. But you're just very time poised, you know what I mean? Like, say you're, you're literally, you've done work on yourself, but you're doing 70 hour weeks, maybe 80 hours, because you, you, you're, you know, you're that dude. Because, I mean, some people, they're wired for it. And not that everyone's, everyone's wired for that, but I mean, there are some people that they're, you know, it might be a phase of their life where they have to really, really put in excessive am.