SSP168: Why Most Men Are STUCK: Spiritual Bypassing, Fake Gurus & Real Integration With Theo Fotopoulous

Season.

I know, it's kind of weird.

You press record.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, mate, we made it.

We finally made it.

This has taken three shots at trying to record this podcast. Yep. Scheduled one in Bali. They double booked us. We came here last week. The SD card wasn't in the device.

It was a journey.

It was a journey. But we're here, bro.

We're here after such a long night. I'm so excited.

Same, same. We're back in Perth. What a whirlwind. The last three years has been probably four years since we did the last podcast. Oh. It's where we were stuck here during COVID and we've both, you know, broken free from the system out here. You've been living in Bali. I've been traveling a lot, but man, we've been still keeping in touch with each other and now that I've been back on this side of the world, we've had some really good catch ups and so much shifting in the world, so much shifting inside of both of us and we wanted to have this conversation to really share, also illuminate some of the things that we're seeing both internally and externally and yeah, bring more clarity to the world, mate, because you, you're a deep diver, man. It was like, we're not playing in the shallow end, are we?

No, no, no, that's for sure.

Yeah. Well, why don't we start with just tell us what's brought you back to Perth for now. Give people a bit of an update as to what you've been doing here and.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's been a long journey actually coming back because I left 14 or 15 months ago and it took me almost more than a year to come back. So for me it's been really beautiful coming back without essentially the, the intensity and the heaviness that was coming for so long, you know, because my journey for 11 years here was pretty, pretty heavy and intense. But essentially also like this is where I did all of my, my deep work. I started my journey like I've done multiple heroes journeys within Australia. So now my journey was outside and coming back as a, as a free man essential. Long. It has been a completely different experience and, and also to catch up together like such a long time with all the different versions of ourselves. You know, we've, we've evolved into. It's really beautiful to see you also here. But what brought me was actually first of all reconnecting also like with the people that I love here and also around some events, you know, diary Treats and all the stuff. Stuff that I have been doing for so long.

Yeah, the retreats are powerful, man, very powerful. Really bringing men and women together to really face off with their darkness in quite a unique way. You know, maybe explain a little bit more about that for those who are not aware of what, what these retreats are.

Yeah, no, thank you for asking. Also, because I've never really actually said about the retreats, especially like in. In a podcast. So I have been doing them with my business partner and best friend, Jay. Jay. Jay. Jason Gray, the Onyx Elite.

Those from Perth know most people in Perth in the fitness and fighting space in general. Know of Jay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Pretty well known, Pretty well known here. Like for me, I know Jay for probably now like seven or eight years, but we have been working together for the last close to four years. Jay used to run the retreats essentially for more than 10 years. I think he has been doing fitness retreats essentially because Jay also started as a, as a fitness coach. He's coaching fighters like for 25 years or something, boxing and Muay Thai, all sorts of disciplines. And essentially they brought me in with his previous business partner to, to really make that retreats more holistic so I can offer a bit more the, the psychological and somatic aspect and all the stuff. So they, they wanted to make them a bit more complete. So, yeah, three and a half years ago I entered that arena there not knowing what I'm putting myself into because I asked them specifically for me to go through that journey also and then facilitate in the end. And this is the first time that I actually realized who Jay Gray was and actually how much, how much he loves actually building resilient and strong individuals essentially. And because I'm naturally someone that seeks like, challenges consistently and, and I'm very intense. So it was actually perfect at the time for me to. To get challenged in that way and to a degree that I haven't been until that point. And it was basically four days of physical hell, which, which consistently throughout that days, you. You break through all your limitations. First of all, the limitations that we have been putting in our minds or we have accepted through other people's stories and then also realizing how much more the body has to offer after we break through there. So I actually saw for the first time, despite I thought that was very, very advanced and I thought I broke free through so many limitations, I found so much more there. And it was a constant breakthrough every day through breaking down the body and the mind, you know, which was really beautiful because the way I had been exploring myself during that period, essentially those probably three, four years until then, was so much more on a psychological level and essentially spiritual. So it brought me back to the physical in a very unique way and helped me actually land and ground so much of that knowledge and information I have been acquiring myself. So this is where the whole journey started together. So three and a half years ago, and by now I think we've done 20, 27 or 28 retreats in three and a half years, but we had a big break also because I have been away. So imagine, like, how much, how many events we have run and. And we've. We have been doing it in all sorts of different forms. So we have been playing a lot to figure out, like, essentially what the. What the right structure is or, you know, we have a lot of offering, essentially. So we have done one day, three days, five, six days. So we have played a lot, like, with. With a format and stuff. But. But for me, it's. Everything is very holistic, essentially. So in every event, we work, mind, body, and spirit, we don't separate anything. So we see, you know, the human experience as a whole, essentially. So we're trying to tackle everything.

Yeah, mate, I love it. I've had a little taste test of it with the 24 hour one we did a few years ago, and it was, yeah, really, really powerful. Yeah, because you. You find a new edge, you find a new. You find your limit, and then you realize there's so much more beyond that. And I guess I haven't asked you this because this was from Fresh for me. Over the weekend, I was watching Goggins train Israel. He's one of the top former UFC champ, I think, and it was interesting to watch that because I. I was observing what Goggins put him through, taking him to his edge, and then essentially pushing him beyond that edge to. To find or discover a part of himself that maybe he hadn't accessed yet. And I wonder, how would you describe. Because that's essentially what you guys are doing to some degree as well. How would you describe. And where is the limit or line where, you know, you've got the Goggins on one end of the extreme where you could say he's not really integrated the spirit. And I can't speak on his behalf. I don't know the guy, but you can see mentally and physically, he's stretched beyond to a certain extreme. But at the point now where it almost seems like the spirit's not emanating through his body, it's just Pure disassociation from the body. So how would you describe your guys experience? Because you're taking a similar route where you're breaking people physically to realize that it's like fucking 60% more beyond what they thought their limit was, which then opens up this whole new fucking portal, right. Of transformation. What's the difference there? And the nuance in how Goggins approaches and how your guys approaches.

So, so essentially that kind of experience, like starting the whole process through breaking down the body and the mind, it serves the purpose of creating the opening for the spirit to come through. Because there's so much, so many limitations and blockages and, and tensions like even within the body. Like, so the more you break through that, the more speed comes, can come through. But if the focus is only there and then you don't do the rest of that work, like you're missing a great opportunity of actually having a proper transformation. So there's nothing wrong with actually doing that, you know, with essentially like David Goggins. That's all essentially he does. There's no psychological work, there's no spiritual work. Like he's just as you said, like a disassociated individual, you know, And I think I've said it was with you also, like I'm surprised that he's been to so many podcasts and none, none of the hosts have actually asked him, what are you running away from? Because that's, that's all you see him doing. Like he's, he's at his 50s now and he still runs. Where are you going, bro? Literally, where are you going? And don't get me wrong, like he has some good stuff. You can get like a lot of things like from everyone.

Yeah.

You know, especially in regards to the mindset and all that stuff. Because as men we do need to be very like strong mentally and physically and be resilient. But if you just. That you're, you're literally trapped in, in, you know, and a lot of the times the driver can be like just from, from trauma and childhood essentially abuse or you know.

Yeah. Because yeah, we just need to look at his relationship with women to get the clear reflection of that.

Yeah, but, but, but when you read his story, like I remember reading his first book probably five, six years ago when I wasn't even like, you know, conscious to the level that I am now. But you could still see from back then when he says about his dad, there's still so much resentment and anger like that. I don't think like he's really have Dealt with.

Yeah.

But then there's the mother wound also that you can clearly see because he, you know, every relationship that he has just breaks down.

That's right. And it's so. We have to be so careful as men in this space to glorify and pedestalized these individuals that have achieved a certain level of notoriety or external success or whatever. We're seeing it everywhere right now where we're seeing beyond this kind of illusion that we were like, oh, wow, they've fucking. They're it.

Yeah, yeah.

But there's so, you know. Yeah, we, we've discussed a lot about this offline.

Yeah.

About how. What's starting to come to the surface in this current time is people are actually now seeing beyond the facade a lot.

Yeah.

And I think choosing to be very careful with. Okay, we can appreciate it, admire some people for what they've done, but there's so much we don't know behind the scenes that before we start giving someone credit for, for the, for the work they're doing, how integrated and how well rounded have had they actually gone into all of these different facets like you're referring to. And we were chatting in Bali about this, man, how just in the spiritual coaching community and personal development space in general, there's a lot of fluff, there's a lot of words. And, and we've fallen into the trap of that ourselves. You know, I speak for myself. Like, we all go through, we all go through it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and I, and we are seeing this trend now of, of people going, oh, okay, we, we're, we're done with that. It's, it's not, it's. Something doesn't seem right. And yeah, yeah. To more directly reference the Aubrey podcast that came out with him and his. With his two partners.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Most people probably listening to this have some idea about that. If you don't, you can, you can look into it. But that was a huge awakening for so many people because we realized, okay, you can say certain things, you can say all the words, but if, if in your body there's something we're registering, something that doesn't sit right within us, all of a sudden there's, there's a. We see beyond the, the illusion that's there. How has that played out in your life and what are you seeing right now? As I would say, a lot of us have popped out the other side of it going like, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, we'd like, just be real, man. Let's just speak from. Just speak real let's not make up words that don't mean anything. And yeah, what are you seeing in all that, man?

Because it's very hard also, like, I feel for all of us to distinguish what's real or not the way, especially with that advancements of technology and, you know, especially with social media and all that stuff, like, it makes everything very, very confusing. But yeah, you brought the perfect example, like with Aubrey Marcus. So I think I was sharing with you. He has been a great mirror for me, like, in a lot of ways. Like, I could see myself in him. Like, in. In a lot of ways we're both Pisces. Also, like, the Energetics are very similar and all the stuff and, and even through my own journey, like, I've, I've experienced, like, I could use him as a mirror essentially, so I can actually see what I was doing. But I do feel in general people nowadays, because I do understand and I do believe, like, the level of consciousness in general, especially after Covid starts to increase a lot, like, and more and more people are waking up, I think they can actually see the bullshit. And even on even some of the posts that he made, essentially referring to the podcast and his relationship and the radical monogamy thing and all the stuff, like, you had hundreds and hundreds of very articulate, essentially comments that they were trying to call him out and actually tell him, bro, just check yourself, you know, and if people, the more people are tuned in with their bodies, they're going to feel that yak feeling that comes up every time that he speaks and tries to promote like these false, these false ideas and everything, you know? Um, so. So yeah, like, for me, this is something that I always do with my clients. It's from the first things that I say, do not put me on a pedestal. Do not see me as this all knowing, all fucking being or something, you know, I'm also human. I'm also making mistakes. I'm also in my own process. And the process never stops, really. Yes. I am there to guide you because of the things that I have learned and the experiences that I had. And, and I do that very, very well. And I'm not there to show you how to be me. I'm here to guide you into your own, essentially to understand your own power and your own soul, essentially, and consciousness to, to connect with that and become your own powerful being, because we all have this power inside. So essentially that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to support people on the journey of how to connect with their own Power not really become who I am. I'm unique, you're unique. They can be their own unique self. But the problem is there's so much misinformation out there and false messiahs and, and everything else that makes everything like.

Very, very confusing, you know, so, so let's, let's maybe go to helping the listeners, all the viewers, understand how perhaps a delusion like this can happen. Because we've all probably fall into the trap of it at certain times. And it can happen when you start step onto this journey of trying to find yourself or whatever we want to call this, this path that so many of us are now finding ourselves on. Because the path for me has been early on, take in a lot of different information, taking a lot of viewpoints, taking a lot of perspectives, philosophies, ideologies. And all of a sudden you can attach and associate yourself with these certain ideologies and confine yourself into this paradigm of how you see the world. And you can't actually see outside that.

Paradigm, which is literally like, I was actually reflecting on that, like the last couple of days after having a couple of very profound dreams also. So one thing that people really need to understand is that the power of the unconscious mind, essentially, because the unconscious mind is so vast that as soon as you have like your first awakening, in a sense, which basically means you are awakening beyond the egoic identity, which is such a small part essentially of our psyche, all of a sudden we get this flood of energy from the unconscious mind. And this is the hard thing to navigate. And I've seen it in so many different ways. I've seen it through coaching people through psychedelic experiences and ceremonies. Like breath was like, I've seen it so many times. So when that identity shatters all or essentially like quietens down, so much more comes through. And this is the difficult part to navigate because all of a sudden you have all these unconscious material that tries to come through, so, so we can make it conscious, but because we don't have that level of awareness yet of or understanding, it gets so confusing. And it can really derail you because you don't know, like, how to, you know, to work through that. And this is the hardest part. It's, it's that, that awakening process. And this is really when we need to have someone to, to really guide us on how to really understand what is happening. It's very confusing.

Yeah.

You know, and most people, they're completely like, identified with, with their egoic mind. And when that shatters for the first time the ego Always tries to latch on, on a new identity. That's the hard part. And if you are not aware of the games of that small identity part of our psyche, then you get lost consistently in a new identity that Diego has formed. That's the fluffy that you talked about. The spiritual communities, for example. I think that's what you were trying to refer to. This is the problem with spiritual communities and new age spirituality, essentially, which even Aubrey Marcos has fallen into. He's literally the leader of this movement. You know, they. They consistently shatter, you know, the psyche through psychedelic experiences and ceremonies and all the stuff. And essentially they're not aware that the ego, every time that they blast it open or they try to crash it because, you know, a lot of, A lot of people in spiritual communities, they stuck still on the game of I want to kill my ego. I was there probably. You were there a lot. We go through that. The problem is, is when you stay on that level and you create that internal conflict that essentially never stops. But the more you fight the egoic identity, the more it actually will back you back. And what it does, it will create a new identity with. With the spiritual ego, essentially, which is the most dangerous forms of identity that you can get latched on, you know, and this is what happens. You see it everywhere. Like, you know, go to Bullying Bayou, for example. It's. It's funny, you see, especially to see men in that state of completely disassociate, completely spiritually bypassing and completely like, out of their bodies, creating this spiritual ego and presenting themselves as these, you know, special beings. And, you know, and you see them, they're so feminine and the way they behave like this is, this is why we want to, you know, like to promote as masculinity, for example, like nowadays, you know, with all the craziness that we are experiencing. So it's a very. Is a very, very hard thing to navigate. And especially when you have communities formed through that energy, it's. It becomes, it becomes chaotic.

Yeah, it becomes a group think, group thinking.

And it creates a collective. A collective essentially, like. Yeah, a collective, like way of being and thinking and all the stuff that attracts also more and more people that they struggle and they don't know essentially like, how to do that process. And imagine going, going into something like that while you're. You're in that state. That's, that's the thing. And then it's very hard also, like, to. To get out. I've seen it so many times because I work with a lot of people that they Managed to get out of that. And they, they. They came to me like for, for support.

Yeah.

You know.

Yes. Because this is. You touched on some really important points that I want to go deeper into because I feel it's important that we all understand this deeply so we can see it when it shows up in our life. You know. And I will speak from my own experience to help illuminate more clarity on this as well. Because you mentioned the spiritual bypassing thing. That's a. That's a big one. That's a big sign or word to understand what's actually happening beneath the surface when you awaken and break out of one particular identity or you have that first period of awakening in your life. And I'm more than my thoughts, I'm more than my job, and you seek this higher thing and then this is. This is my journey. Got broke free from the system of 9 to 5 accountant traveling. Now he's a coach. He makes content. Now I'm the guy that does this, that makes content, that meditates, that. That doesn't feel all these intense emotions and has his shit together and coaches other people. But what suddenly started to happen, that I've noticed in my own journey was when I was good, I was good. But when I was bad, my mind would turn on myself. And all of a sudden I would look to avoid confronting the shadow through spiritual practices.

Yeah.

Meditation or like.

Or reading more. Yeah.

More podcasts, more YouTube. There's more I gotta do to learn to become. You know, and there was a trap. There's that spiritual ego, personal development trap that we fall into that instead of just embracing the fact that this. It's called being a human. You can. You can feel sometimes, you can get angry sometimes you can go into these dark places and just be like. This is called the ebb and flow of life.

Yeah.

Instead of having an identity that try and keeps me away from that as the person that has to be high vibe all the time or whatever. All of a sudden I was bypassing, you know, the next stage in my growth that was trying to unfold.

Yeah.

And there's a. It's why for me, being around other men like yourself, having coaches, having. Being in spaces with other men who can call for call on that. That's important. Guys. Lot of guys don't even have that in their life.

That, That's. That's a very important thing that we need to touch them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

100.

So. So having that and then it allows you to. It's like a slap. It's like an energetic slap across the face with another. Only another man can give that to you. Because 100. A woman's not going to give that to you. She can try. No, but a man will shake you out of it. Yeah.

Women are good also at calling us out. But it hits different when it comes from a man that you respect, that it's close to you and he actually knows you, you know, like.

Yeah.

You know, he's been through, like, things with you. And all the stuff, for example, for me, my. My two closest, essentially friends, which we even, like, work together, and all the stuff that. The experiences that we have together, the level of respect and trust that we have with each other has built this. This beautiful brotherhood that no matter what, I know they have my fucking back. So if I get lost or I lose my bearings at any point while I'm doing my processes, I know I can turn to them and they will literally either call me out or they're. They're going to support me to come out of. Of that darkness. Or if I've been into a deep hole, because I'm very famous for that. I go to deeps. Yeah.

And I want to. I want to hear about these holes too, because there's so much wisdom that you've taken from.

Yeah.

Yes. These places you've gone.

Yeah.

You know, and just to share the. To ground out the wisdom. I'm taken from my own spiritual bypassing process.

Yeah.

Particularly around kind of just not honoring my own shadow in terms of the anger that would sometimes come up in my life and the patterning of kind of suppressing that anger was this. This realization that, you know, when my energy is high and everything's great, that's me succeeding. That's me winning. And when my energy is low and I'm stuck in the anxiety, that's me failing and that's me losing.

Yeah.

And this association or attachment to, like, meaning that I was creating on these events was creating this dysfunction in my life where I would struggle in the lows. When the highs was there, I was. I was good. And the lows were there. I would. I would struggle and I would struggle to break free from it. And coming out the other side was like, helping me see that, like, dude, there's. The winning is actually in the low as well. There's always winning. There's. You're never losing. It's only the label that I'm placing on the losing. It's turning into this shame and anxiety around it when in reality, just fucking. It just.

But this is where the work is. Yeah, like when we get into these moments, this is, this is where really that work is. Because there's a reason why something like that will come up.

Yeah.

Everything is assigned, like the body consistently through emotions, which is energy, emotion will show us all these essentially signs that they're trying to communicate something to us that we need to look at. The same with anxiety, the same with depression, like with everything. It's just a sign, you know, And I'm glad that you are saying that because it's very important for people to see that we are the first ones that we have to go through these things. Otherwise if we stagger the bypassing process and we're just trying to be this, you know, like, it's perfect, essentially. Like, you know, I'm a coach, so that means I don't go through things. It doesn't work like that. The reason why we do what we do, it's because we have been through those things, we have overcome them, we actually properly sit with them and look at them. And now we have the ability to actually coach people or guide people through their own processes. So what I want to say in regards to that, essentially, because this is where the work is. This is what healing is also. It's not about avoiding or getting rid of the parts that we don't like or we have learned to suppress or essentially deem as bad or anything like that is actually this is the parts that we need to become intimate with. This is the parts that we need to bring forth to properly look at them, accept them, and actually bring them back into our being so we can reach essentially wholeness. That's what healing is. It's literally the process towards back to wholeness. We came back in whole when the soul comes in through, through the physical body. But then we start to get fractured from our body, gets fractured psychologically through obviously like you know, the, the childhood traumas and parenthood and, and the schooling system and all the stuff. So essentially the process is going back to how we were in the beginning so we can experience ourselves as whole, connected with our body, connected with our emotion, connected like with our soul. And actually, but it's, it's that beautiful.

And you can still be angry and whole.

But. But that's the beautiful thing.

Wholeness is, is always.

It's experiencing everything.

Yeah.

Living life as, as being alive is literally that. Embracing everything, embracing that duality, first of all, what we consider good and bad, the dark and light, pain and pleasure, everything. The only way to go to oneness as everybody talks in the spiritual community is about embracing all of it, the suffering and the good things.

So when someone travels to Bali or someone feels this thing in their body where they meet another individual who is in this spiritual community who they feel something that feels inauthentic. And I hear that a lot. Amanda, my partner, has such a high, very sensitive bullshit detector to anyone who's, who's inauthentic and is trying to portray something that they're not. And it's subtle. Sometimes I'll miss these things. I'll meet like a solid dude and be like, hey, that guy. He's the guy, man. And the man is like, ah, I don't know, something felt off about him. What, what is it? And maybe to use the example you gave, if someone's in Ubud, they're in Bali and they meet the man who's really spiritual, he' speaks all the spiritual words and he's got maybe a more feminine posturing. What, what are, are we sensing in our bodies when we come in contact with that?

It has nothing to do with the energetics in regards to if he's feminine or masculine or like the words that he's saying and all the stuff. If you, if you are not fractured and you're not separated from your body, which means your nervous system also, what will happen? Your nervous system straight away. Because that's what our nervous system does. As soon as we go into a space, our nervous system scans for threats straight away. So if you are connected with that and you have a connection with your nervous system, straight away, you're gonna feel something. So if something is off, your nervous system is gonna tell you straight away. Doesn't matter if he's feminine, if he's masculine, if he's. Whatever he is, if he has a man band or whatever, it's not about that at all. But if, if what he says does not match, essentially, you know, like his, his presence, your nervous system will tell you straight away. So it's all about that. If you are connected with your body and your nervous system is going to tell you straight away, so you will.

Get that signal and this like, you just nailed it. I love the way you articulated that. That's exactly what. We are all becoming more sensitive too right now. We can feel it. We can feel when something is off in how someone is, because it's okay if you're showing up and you're having a shit day and your nervous system's out of whack and you're just fucking in it. But if you don't honor. And if you try to portray something that is not congruent with your internal experience, then that's when we pick up this. This sense of inauthenticity.

Yeah.

And this is the. What we're discovering is, is that authenticity. Someone who is actually owning all of themselves. The dark and the light is the thing that feels most magnetic, feels the most attractive. And it's what we are now gravitating towards as a community because we. We've. It's almost like we have now seen into what inauthenticity is. We see beyond the illusion of words and. And Persona like this, this. This fake Persona that, you know, I think everyone's seen it online, right? Where there's this fake Persona.

Facade.

Yeah. You go to Tulum, you see it. You go to Bali, you see this is this facade. Certain words, certain dress code. I've been in it, man. I've been in.

Yeah.

So. So. And it doesn't. No, no shade, no judgment. Because if someone's in the facade or they're stuck in the inauthenticity, then they may not even be aware of it.

Because most of the time, unless. Unless you are a narcissistic psychopath, which you know what you're doing. Like, you. You're unconscious of that. And that's why it's important to have people to call you out. If I was behaving like that or any time that. That I'm not aware of things or I'm operating from. From unconscious partners or shadow aspects. I need to have someone in my life that can, you know what, bro, Check on yourself. This is what I'm noticing that you are doing. And that's what I ask from the people around me. I did it when I have partners at the. Like with my friends. I require that because the way I also work with people, it's so. It's in such depth and in such intimate and vulnerable ways. Because obviously I work like, especially with the healing aspect. You know, I work like still with body work and the breath work and the medicine and everything. So the way I see people, it's. It's in the most vulnerable and raw state and especially because I work with women. So if I'm not shaking with. With myself consistently that I'm coming from a very pure place, this. This will come through because there's that. That's aspect. So I'm always so conscious of what energy comes through my hands because. Because from the moment I'm going to show up and I'm not check with Myself and present and grounded. That will show with what I'm passing through. My energy is very, very important.

Yeah. So when. Yeah, because it's, it's clear that that awareness is really the, is the only thing that really matters here. Because high vibe and low. We're going to be low vibe, we're going to be high five.

But we all go through this.

We all go through. It's impossible to be high vibe all the time.

No.

But as awareness expands, we can allow the low vibe and almost support it in the natural elevating of consciousness into elevated frequency that comes from elevated and expanded awareness. But where does, where does the stunting of growth occur for these people in, in the communities of delusion where we're. Is there a stunting of growth that's happening or is it a stage they just haven't moved through yet? Because I would say, yeah, they get.

Stuck in the States. Yeah.

Why does, why do you think that happens?

It's clearly from the egoic mind. It's. It's the ego identity. They're not aware that the ego has attached to that identity. So they get stuck at a certain level. So they cannot bring through any more. Essentially. Yeah. It blocks them from, from going further essentially. Because what happens in spiritual communities, they're essentially bypassing the psychological work first and asmatic.

Yeah.

So they just stay, stay up there in the ether. They think there is this, this floating consciousness essentially. Like, you know, and, and this is where like they bringing so much information, but it's not grounded at all in the physical body. That, that's, that's the reality.

Yeah.

You know, so, so, so that's exactly what's happening. People think that, that doing the work or the healing process, it's going to be this easy thing because we've been told like that you're going to take a pill, you're going to lose weight or you're going to, you know, like we have been conditioned like that that everything has to be easy. But it took you decades to be in that level that you are like basically like so, so traumatized and in pain. You think you're going to get out of it, like just like that. Because you have to. Depending how, how soon or later you start your process, it will require a specific level of, of commitment and consistency. And it's going to be hard. It's not easy, man. It's not easy. Like I've been doing this for probably nine years relentlessly. Like from the moment I actually faced myself and I realized the truth. Like I made I looked myself in the mirror and I made the promise like I'm not going to stop. And I'm relentless like that to the point that sometimes I get so, so obsessed that I go the other way. And you know, that that's another trap that we can fall into the obsession with healing and like actually consistently looking for something. But, but it's not that either, you know.

Yeah.

So there is levels that we can plateau or get stuck in certain stages of the, of the evolution essentially. But that's why we required like you know, first of all people to have around us to, to call us out the right guides essentially or the right communities or like that's a thing or a divine intervention to bring us out of where we are.

Necessary.

Yeah, it's very necessary.

So these common signs of being stuck in a certain stage where awareness is potentially plateaued or the awareness is not seeing certain dysfunction that's showing up some signs of that would be what? Avoiding maybe doing specific hard things or avoiding looking in uncomfortable areas to. Because there's a preference of always wanting to be high vibe or you know.

Yeah, the love and light. The love and light that we say. Yes, Completely, completely. Essentially avoiding darkness.

Okay. And that's.

This is where all the power is. Yes, you don't face your own darkness. But see there's a collective. What has happened, we have completely, what's the word I'm like avoided to look at darkness in every way from what's happening as a collective in our planet to all sorts of things. And we're trying to just focus essentially on the good. But this is where the power is. And the only way to find your light is through the dark. That's the only way to go there. Like I've seen so many times. And this is where the beauty is. If you don't look at your own darkness, your, your capacity first of all to, to, to do bad or to, you know, like you have to face yourself like that. You have to visit your own darkness, you know, which means your shadow aspects, which means like, you know, that and this is all part of the unconscious mind. That's why I mentioned that before, you know, for me, you know, like I love, I think I told you before also, like I've been studying the past probably three, four years a lot like Carl Jung. Like for me, Carl Jung is by far my favorite out there. Like he was, he was a modern day someone essentially because that's, that's what a salmon is. Someone is someone that literally goes so deep into the unconscious and essentially like the spiritual planes and brings back all the information. And that's what he did to the point that I think for 10 years actually he went psychotic. That's how deep he went. And that's, that's the dangers also like.

Of really going, going there, feeling back these layers.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the unconscious mind is endless, man. There's just so much to bring in. This is when we can actually find so much more of our, of our power, of our intelligence. Like the beauty that you can find there. Like, it's just endless.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we. I know I just gave reference to one way that this sign shows up, the sign of stagnant awareness through spiritual practices and looking into the dark. But it also shows up as the entrepreneur who's working all the time.

Yeah.

And doesn't make time to sit with what's back there that maybe is causing his relationships to fall apart or him to be reactive and defensive around his partner or for him to not be able to connect with women. It's the same pattern, except there's just that there's different extremes of it.

Right. Yeah.

It's not just, you know, it's not just unique to the spiritual community that the same avoidance of shadow is showing up in, in like ultra high achievers.

Yeah.

So it's, I guess the pathway through is, is what's. What's hardest for you right now that maybe you're avoiding. Because if it's easy for you to work 12 hours a day and scale businesses, then maybe that's not where your growth is. The hard part is like, hey, let's just slow down and maybe tune in.

Let's see what happens, what comes up when you actually stop for a week and you are forced to sit with yourself without distracting yourself through the phone, without trying to keep yourself busy, but actually properly. See how many times you have asked your clients, how do you spend time with yourself? Like properly spend time with yourself? Do you ever do that during that week without going on the phone, without watching Netflix, without distracting yourself with anything else but just actually sitting there journaling or meditating or actually connecting with, with what tries to, you know, your, your, your being tries to tell you. How many times are you. I mean, I know that's the thing. And how many times actually someone came back and told you, yeah, yeah, I've spent like 30 minutes a day or yeah, it's almost.

I did my five minute meditation or.

I went for three minutes in the iceberg. Good job.

Yeah. And then the other extreme was the people who are Doing only doing that. Sitting with themselves, but then not actually going out and having the conversation, starting the business, doing the thing that's actually.

That's the other form. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So. So I get the sense that people may be listening or watching, are getting an idea of what we're getting at with this stagnation of awareness, avoidance of the shadow, and then almost like a plateau or being stuck in this delusion that they're. That they're integrated and balanced or whatever, which, which would be reflected in their life to some level via in not having any money in their bank account, relationships being fucked, health deteriorating. It would be reflected in their external environment because the internal is dysfunction. The internal is. Is completely out of balance. So there's that now there's the. This spiritual narcissism that we touched on that you. I believe you are very qualified to speak on this because of your own experience, being in proximity to it and being just. You've got to know this dynamic really well. And it's something that I haven't seen discussed a whole lot, but it has come up recently since, you know, the Aubry podcast. There's been a lot of talking points around that, and I'd love to hear you share your perspective on that because I think that's another level of the delusion that we're.

Yeah, there's more and more powerful examples essentially out there, like. And I think the conversation is being had at the moment, especially after that, that experience with Aubrey Marco. So spiritual narcissism, like, the problem is in general, the technology and social media has. Has increased the level of narcissism massively. And I do feel there's way more of the disorder also showing up because there's like narcissism, obviously there's a spectrum and there's level of narcissism, but I do feel we have like that disorder just going rampant everywhere. And of course the coaching industry, healing industry, therapists, of course it's going to attract narcissists there because it's the easiest way to get supply. Because that's the thing with narcissism. For a narcissist to survive, they need constantly a supply from someone. And that's why I've been. I've been feeding narcissists. I've been the narcissist best food supply for four decades. No, I've actually started like making a joke of that because I've lived with them, I've been in relationships with them. I grew up with a narcissistic dad. So, so I understand the. Not just that disorder, but the psychological aspect, like, very, very well. And the reality is these industries have attracted a lot of that, which is very, very dangerous also at the same time, because a narcissist, it's not there for the people there for them because they have only, only, only a reason to go there. They need to survive from the supply that they get. And they're going to be getting it consistently. That's the thing. Plus they're charismatic. Plus, you know, they have all this charisma and personality and all the stuff that basically attracts people in need, you know.

Yeah, interesting.

We can look at the history of cult leaders and cults formed and all that stuff, and you can see it straight about way. So. So essentially, like, it's a very dangerous place. And especially because of the way that. Essentially because I work with both men and women, for me has been a really, a really big thing, especially with, with working with women. The amount of clients that I have had in, the amount of women I have worked with that they have been either abused or mistreated in, in healing spaces. It's just.

Yeah. Which blows my mind.

It's next level. Like the stories that I have heard, like, sometimes I'm like, I can't believe like that this is happening. And this happens in, in, in, in even in ceremony circles, you know, with ayahuasca with all sorts of plant medicines and all that stuff. Like, it happens everywhere. And it's, it's, it's. It's just crazy.

Yeah. Yeah. And you showed me some videos when we're in Bali together of these Russian healers or whatever they want to call posting these videos online of them, you know, waking the Kundalini energy in these women. And it's almost like these women are having orgasms live on camera.

And it's posting and it has become this new thing now. Let's, let's promote that as healing.

Yeah, yeah.

And then like this of women like, you know, like being in that state and mourning and, you know, with this.

Like, provocative music in the background. And it's, it's, it's a, it's the marketing now for his business. And we go onto his page and he's got almost a million followers.

And there's so many of them out there. That's the thing. There's so many of them out there. You see it so frequently. And it's becoming bigger and bigger, essentially. And this is the other thing that I wanted to touch on. We have been conditioned now to believe that healing is literally going. Doing a breath workshop every week or a kundalini session every so often or having cathartic experiences and, and crying and screaming and tremoring. Like we have been conditioned to believe from all this content out there, that's what healing is. But it's not that, man. It is a small part of that. But what it has also created like all this content out there of people being in those vulnerable states, it's created a lot more performance also because there's so many people going into like a healing space to, to have a sound healing or a breath work or a kundalini session or whatever. And they just perform because that's, that's what they've learned. Like that's what they see on social media. And they go there and. And they're still in their minds and they just screaming or they just start laughing or they start like pretending. And we've created like these, these spaces that it's full of, of performance.

Yeah.

That. That's not healing. And essentially all those experience, even, even with plant medicine, you know, which, which I know, like we both are very grateful for, for the experiences that we have. And you know, they're definitely like amazing tools, but they're also like very dangerous also at the same time. And they have to be treated with caution and also like respect. But what's happening out there also, it has become this thing. Everybody needs to have medicine. Everybody needs to go and have ayahuasca or, you know, like mushrooms or whatever. But the reality is very, very different.

Yeah.

Because if you go into spaces like that and your nervous system is already like, you know, compromised and your window of tolerance is very, very small, and you go there and you blast yourself with a couple of cups and you don't have actually people that know what they're doing to support you. There's so much traumatization that happens there. And I'd see, I've seen it even in spaces with healers that consider, you know, like, you know, with top healers. That's, that's the thing. Yeah, but, but all those experience, they're just an opening. That's all it is. That's not actually doing the work. The work is what you're going to do after that opening. So you open like the, the portal or you open your body which you put all these influx of energy comes through either through the body or, or the spirit. How are you going to integrate that if you don't have like someone to guide you and help you like with that process? So you're Just left so, so cracked open with, with, with not knowing what to do. And you're thinking, yeah, okay, I'm, I'm, I've healed this part of myself now. No, you just have been shown where your work is and what you need to do for, for, for that weeks, you know, after this experience. And that's where you need to, this is where the actual work is. Yeah, yeah, it's very, very important. So people. And I was there like for so long. I struggled so much. When I actually started engaging even with plant medicine and all the stuff, like probably 80 years ago, eight, nine years ago, because naturally I'm so intense. You know, I started having like so many experiences, thinking that's where, where the healing is. And yeah, I had very profound experience. But the reality is I was going back to my everyday life being, being essentially not relationship back then also I was a stepdad, five kids. So I didn't have the space to integrate anything. Obviously. I had all these stresses and all the stuff. So I was getting cracked open a lot of the times, even fractured because the experience was so intense. And I did say he had no one to, to help me navigate all that. That's, that's how I became the person also that I needed back then. Because essentially that's what happened. So the person that I needed back then to support me, I had to become so I can, so I can support people now.

So the danger of. Because that I feel that is a phase that we're seeing now about to come to an end. Yeah, people doing the ayahuasca every few months and just the constant repetition of ceremonies and all of that. Because what we're seeing is that that's another delusion that's rooted in the avoidance of actually showing up and doing the work in your life. And you're seeking the transcendent and experience or the huge breakthrough and that's convincing your mind that you're doing the work and then you don't therefore don't have to show up. And in the day to day discipline of mastering your own mind in a sense, like, and not allowing yourself to fall back into these old conditioned programs that cause your system to close up, to shut down, to go back into this old frequency in a sense. So I. What. Because we see that a lot, man. A lot of. I see it a lot in people that I've coached, even people that come to get coaching by me. And when I was going, I had my first ayahuasca a few months ago.

Oh yeah, you did?

Yeah, yeah. And the amount of people, when I started to tell people, oh yeah, I'm going to do my school, they're like, oh yeah, I've done ayahuasca and I'm coaching them and I'm like, oh, you've, you've done. I was, oh, okay, nice. Like people start there now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they wear it as a budge also.

Yeah, you know, I've tried that. Ticked out ayahuasca. Done.

But, but this is the ego. Actually create an identity from the experiences that you have had. How many times we've, we've had conversations with people and they will tell you, yeah, I've done like 15 ayahuascas and all the stuff, I'm healed now, you know, but then you see how they live or how they behave and they're like, you're like, that's it? Really?

That's it? And yes, they're probably. There are people that want to, that love to explore in those realms and maybe that's their path, the shamanism path.

And okay, so for example, myself, the reason why I keep having these experiences is not because I'm sensing something or I'm trying to heal something anymore. For me, first of all, those have been my teachers for, for a long time now and they did show me like, you know, so much of where my work was. But then for me, I keep going there because I'm holding people into those spaces and I need to actually get stronger and understand them even deeper. You can only hold people as far as you have been yourself. So that's the thing. So for me, it's a, it's a, it's a non negotiable. I need to go there. I want to go there. That, that's, that's the reality. It's part of my own journey. It's not like a false, you know, like, yeah, like false identity or like, it's nothing like that. That's my path and I had to make a decision. Either I commit to it or, you know, I might do something different. And it's not an easy path, I can guarantee you that. You know, and I want to share something also so people can actually understand. If you decide, if you are shown and you connect with that to your core, that this is, this is, this is where you need to go. It's a very difficult path. A very difficult path. Like one of the trainings that I did, like I think I said with you to essentially like learn how to facilitate like with combo, which is, which is this beautiful medicine from, from the Amazon, like the frog poison. Like. I spent three weeks in the jungle in, in Peru where I had 11 combo sessions in 15 days, seven of them back to back on a dieta, which is the most profound experience I've ever had in my life because it was the first time in my life I actually got stripped down of, of anything, any attachments that I had, any identities that I created because I was waging every day I was going to the Moloka, I was self administering kambo and I had to hold myself by myself and then spend the rest of the day in my tambo, deep in giant, inside the jungle, sitting with all that of, with all the things that Campbell was squeezing out of my system in every level. Eight days in a row. Like, like that's the thing. It's not, it's not, it's painful, it's intense, it's, it's, it's wild. And this is just one of the experiences that I have had to bring myself to a level to being able to hold people's pain and chaos and help them feel safe through that. If I don't put myself through all this, I'm gonna hold, you know, and that's why people feel safe with me. Because the way I have explored myself, it's not just intense, but I've been through my darkness and I keep going there so much. And that's what, that's why people feel safe with me. Don't pretend to be love and light and all that stuff. They can like you can. When someone has, has worked through their darkness and it shows up in their presence, that's, that's the reality.

Totally.

That's it. You cannot feel safe with someone that, you know, had its fluffy.

Yeah, and that's what I mean. That's going back to like sustainable relationships. Yeah, that's why so many, so many men fail to maintain just depth in their relationship. Because the longer you start to avoid these aspects, the, the less you're going to be able to provide that safety to your woman, to your partner. And then the relationship becomes capped and limited because, you know, you're not willing to go there within yourself. So how can you lead and guide her into the depths of her soul, you know, in that, in that union, in that intimacy. And what came up when you were sharing that, bro? Just with the, with the medicine experience. Because when I was reflecting on my ayahuasca experience, it was pure bliss for three days, mate. Like the cambo helped so much with that, cleared me out so much beforehand. But three days of Just bliss like blasted into DMT land. I'm like, oh, this is amazing. This is like a roller coaster. This is so much fun. This is epic. Yeah. But again, the ebb and flow of the universe, the contrast, the polarity of life, the up and the down. What goes up must come down. My, on the, the other side of my journey was actually really challenging because I was, I was fucking flattened. I was, I was quite tired, I didn't have a lot of energy, go to the gym, I didn't feel like getting back into my business very quickly. And there was, there was resistance that came up there. That was, that was the, the growth of me. That was the integration moment for me.

What did you connect with, through, through that process afterwards? Because it's such a, it's such a contrast, like experience the absolute. And then I've been there also myself, like experience so much bliss and, and, and profound connection, probably even with, with the divine and all the stuff. But then you're coming out, your body is exhausted, like you start to fall, feel a bit like done and all the stuff. It was there something that came up for you and you connected with that, that needed your attention and you had to integrate.

It took me a while to figure that out because it's probably the thing that I've been integrating since, since I started this process to nine years ago, which was this, this, this desire to, to achieve this, this desire to like it was this business related, like it was this. I had all these goals and expectations in my business and because after I, I was just boom, flattened, there was not a lot going on, but in my head I had, I had the expectation that I was going to get stuff done and I had this, my men's group that was starting up and all of that. So there was, it was the confrontation with this part of me that was here but wanted to be there and wanted to like get, get this thing done. But it was, it was presenting that resistance to the low, the resistance to hey, when I'm, when I'm low I'm not progressing or the idea or the perception that when I'm low I'm not progressing or when I'm low I'm, I'm failing. And it helped me see that because that was what was creating so much suffering in my life. Like I've alluded to already in this conversation, that a lot of the suffering was, has, has come from this outdated perception that the ayahuasca like just, it didn't come in the ceremony actually came after the ceremony. Trying to get back into my life. Which was, which was interesting, you know, because you try and push through that and you ignore that. Like I did, I did.

I ignored.

I tried to go to the gym and work out. I came home, just fucked this line on the floor like I'm wrecked. And then I got sick. Funny that day. I got super sick like a couple of days later. Got the flu, congested as hell and just miserable. And I was. Because I was fighting. I was fighting.

That's the internal conflict there.

Yeah.

Like we literally so many of the times we make ourselves sick from, from literally that, that internal battle, like fighting ourselves.

Yeah, that's fucking hilarious. When you see.

Yeah, yeah. And it will happen.

Yeah, yeah.

But how much, how much more awareness you have of that now from, from that experience.

Oh, dude, it's nuts because again, it's, it's the nature of the universe to go up and down.

Yeah, it's.

It's nature. Dark in the lights, like getting angry at the sun for going down and the night, the moon coming out and going like, why is this happening? I don't want to be this. But if you're going to drink some ayahuasca and get blasted into DMT land, you, you're going into the, going into the, the light, you're getting blasted. It's. You're going to come down, take an mdma, you're going to go up, you're going to come down and there's so. There's so much growth, there's so much lesson in embracing the duality of life. It's back to the, the darkness, it's just falling in love with the darkness so much.

It's exactly what you said.

Yeah, it's the.

But this is, this is where I fell in love also with the process. At the same time I was, I was. You know, because we have what, like 11 years difference or something.

Yeah.

Even when I was at your age, I was still like fighting so much for myself as soon as I got sick because I'm naturally very high energy and all the stuff that was my nemesis if I felt exhausted or I felt sick, like that's, that's where I struggle. And I was, I was avoiding it like hell. You know, and a lot, a lot of us men do, you know, constantly have coffee, like three, four coffees a day, pre workouts, just, just to not feel, feel fucking the law and avoid, avoid that law and allow actually our nervous system to process the exhaustion or, or really connect with, with what's there. But the beauty is actually there. And funny enough setting that it came to my mind. The first time I ever really allowed myself, especially through sickness, to be with it without trying to do anything distracting myself was literally during COVID I only only got it once, whatever that was. And it was after a crazy one hour CrossFit workout, which was so intense. I think, I think one third of the gym got sick actually that day. So I went back home. That must be like four years now ago. And I remember like my whole body was hurting. Literally I felt like, felt like, said I felt like I was dying, had this kidney pain. And literally it was the first time I'm like, oh, I've done so much work. I'm like, okay, this is my opportunity to actually sit with myself and actually absorb and, and, and actually learn that. Learn what is trying to tell me. So I laid there for. I think it lasted three or four days. I didn't do anything. Just slowed down completely laid on the couch. And I was. With my pain and I was just communicating consistently with, with what comes through. And I was going in and out such beautiful states with, with, with intense dreams and like I was just getting so much information and I connected with my body in such a profound way that I've never experienced. And I'm like, oh, this is why I was missing for so long. Like, because this is what we do. We get sick and we're trying to scrape it off as fast as possible to just go and get back to what I've noticed.

But is it the urge to pick up the phone and scroll is the strongest straight away.

Straight away.

How hard is it?

Or what. What's like a marathon of series like.

On Netflix just to distract from the intensity of this, of this. That's, that's interesting.

But it's such a beautiful thing. You're just.

Beautiful thing.

Just lay down and. Okay, you feel pain on your kidneys. Just communicate with that organ what is trying to tell you, like your body, like what is trying to tell you. And the more you stay in that state and you connect like with the pain and everything you're going to get. So you're going to get an influx of so many things.

And that is all the wisdom comes in those moments.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because you, because if you, if you're able to be with that, you're actually receiving in those moments.

Yeah.

The information that you need to transcend this next thing. So when you pop out of it, boom. There's all this. That happens to me every time.

All this clarity, surrendering to that like that's why I love Campbell so much, because you're literally like, having. Having a poison in your body, and you are forced to sit with yourself in such a. Such an intense way because it's so physical, and you feel all these things while the medicine is working within you, and you just can't avoid it. Like, you have to be there. You have to, like, you have to stay present with yourself.

Yeah.

It's such a beautiful thing, man.

Yeah. For those that don't know, because we never actually got to speak about my first campo at the start of the year. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Theo. So you hosted my first cambo session, and this is in January, because I was doing ayahuasca in March, and I wanted to experience it first with you.

Yeah. Yeah.

Thank God I did. I'm glad I did. And I was already sick with the. The Bali belly or whatever the fuck I had, so it was almost this compounded experience where my body was purging while leading up to.

Already.

Yeah. That event. And then the cambo just kind of out both ends, mate. It was. It was coming. It was coming out in all directions. But it was such a profound. It is a profound experience. There's no other way of explaining it, because it's. It. It is the. The depths of that physical intensity that one experiences when you're in the height of an illness.

Yeah.

Which is what? It's just nausea, the worst nightmares, like. Oh, every.

Like, it's the most confronting thing for us men. Like, literally. That's why I love it so much. Like, for me, I actually see it as an initiation. It's a beautiful thing because we've spoken about that so many times. One of the biggest problems that we have as men is we lost that art of essential initiation that we carried through generations and generations from the tribal setting, essentially, where the boys, they will separate from the mother, the elders and the father will take them. And, you know, different tribes, different parts of the world, they have their own unique way of doing that, but essentially, that's. That's exactly how we learn to be men. And we don't have that anymore, that the. The. The father figures has been separated from, from. From the family unit, essentially through. Through industrialization and, you know, and. But that's a revolution, essentially. And we have no. We have no guidance at all.

Yeah.

Go, boy. Figure it out. And now you have, like, you know, this thing with. With so many single mothers that the fathers are completely absent and. And the mother has to be both the father and the mother.

Yeah, that. That's that's super prevalent. Yeah. Especially this. Our generation is experiencing that. I'm not sure of the next generation. I haven't had much contact.

Yeah.

You know, this next generation coming through. But as we start to have kids and our generation starts to have kids, you would like to think that there's going to be a new wave of how, I don't know, integrated masculinity coming into the world. But what I've observed in this current time and some of the conversations that are being had, and I'm interested to get your perspective on this because, you know, I'm going to take this into some interesting waters for a moment, but I was watching over the, over the weekend, Andrew Tate and that. What's that? Only fans chick. Bonnie. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I watched it to observe. I watched half.

You actually watched.

I've watched the whole thing. I've watched the whole thing about halfway through and because I wanted to see. Because his argument was this was the result of the feminist movement and for.

That she is that result.

She is the product of this feminist move.

Yeah.

Which is a, which is a fair statement for those who don't know who Bonnie Blue is, will let them do their own research. But she's an only fans model that's essentially broke the record. She broke the record of having the most sex in one day with thousands.

A thousand men or something.

She does all this other fucking wax. I don't know if you've seen it or heard about it. It's nuts. We won't go there. But you can see in Andrew Tate's rhetoric or his stance and positioning and how he communicates about masculinity, he's very on the traditional old school lens where he's, he's saying as a result of not having a man of men not being there to make decisions on the behalf of women, this is the result. They're free to do whatever they want. My body, my rights. And now you've got all these women on only fans doing these things, in.

A sense, making millions.

Millions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's. What he was saying on the podcast is like, he's. That would never happen to his daughter because he would never allow his daughter to make those kinds of decisions, which it can be triggering for a lot of women to hear that. But there's this elements of truth in what he's saying, but what I sense in his rhetoric that he's missing. There's, there's a, there's a new. There's a new evolution of man that's coming where. Yes, there is some of these traditional attributes that is probably still around where he's taking charge of certain things, helping women make clear decisions, maybe not making all the decisions for them, but giving them the right guidance to. To be able to lead them in certain areas, but also a man that's now integrated in the. In the emotional side of things. Because if you take the tradition, there was not a lot of feminine integration in that. It was just, like, pure, like, stoic, masculine, hyper masculine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So what does this model look like? Because that's what I started thinking about when I seen Tate talking to her. I was like. I was like, I get where I get what he's saying, but some of.

The things that he said are definitely correct.

Yes. So. So it's almost like we need someone to start to. Well, that's what we're doing now. We're. We are putting forth this new model of masculinity, which will support a greater integration of masculine and feminine in the world where you're not having these situations like Bonnie Blue occur in the world due to the complete lack of masculinity.

We thought also women to become like. Yeah, because it serves a purpose also. That's the problem. But to answer your question, it's interesting because you watch that. I actually watched a different episode. I watched this podcast that Stephen Barley did about feminism with three different women.

Interesting one.

She was a psychologist. Yeah. I can't remember the other two. And there was this one of the women you could really see, she has a podcast. I can't remember the name of the podcast. And basically, she. She was put by her family in this thing. It was a religious group or something like that. And she got completely, like, to the extreme, basically, completely ashamed about your sexuality, like, all the stuff. And basically, she could. She was like a slave. And then what emerged out of that is the other end. And this is what happens a lot of the times, like women or men, that they have been suppressed to that degree. As soon as they wake, they come out, they go to the other end.

This is the pendulum. This is the nature of reality.

And this is actually. The psychologist on the podcast was actually talking about. About the pendulum. But you could see that the woman from the trauma that she's experienced and the suppression, she just could not take it in. And she was so trying to dominate everyone there. And, like, literally, like, come. She came across, like, very, very like that. And I just say that's.

That's narcissist. That's the Narcissistic spirit, like, personal development Persona that we're referencing, or this is.

More just a. I think it was coming more from a place of pain.

Yeah.

Because. Because I've worked with women like that and men that they have come through, like Jehovah's Witnesses or, you know, like a very, very even culture or anything like that. And I've seen that damage that it does. That recovery from that is very, very hard, and it requires, like, a long time. So that's. I think I've seen that. So. So I did have compassion, and I could understand it. But essentially, what I'm trying to say, like, definitely the. The. The feminism obviously has created all this on the other end of the. Of the spectrum, extremity, which is the only funds. And that way, women. My body, my. My rights, and I will do whatever I want with that. But see, what's happening out there, it's. It's just very, very intense.

It's nuts. But when I think about the. The evolution of that, it's okay. Yes. But there is a function that a man gets to play or a role that a man gets to play in a woman's life, and a role that a woman gets to play in a man's life.

Yeah. If. If we didn't feed these women, what I mean by that? So if. If there was not all these men sitting on their. On their home, in their room, like, literally just masturbating on only fans and cam girls and all these different things and pornography and all the stuff just literally stuck there in the room and spending their money on this fake, essentially fake intimacy. If we didn't fit that, not all these women would be there. So we allow that to happen. And that's why it has become more and more complex to be a healthy, integrated man. That's why. Because it's so hard, not many men will commit to this process. And this is the evolution of masculinity. What it meant to be a man 100 years ago, 200 years ago, is very different to today. And to tell you the true brother, the truth, for me, this is. This is what I have connected with. I had this beautiful moment, like, these last six months, like, it happened to me multiple times through. Through my. Essentially my. My laws, as we're talking about, while I was processing, very deep stuff, and I had this. This beautiful feeling, like, I felt all this love within my body, and I'm like, oh, I love so, so much being a man, because it's so complex and hard and intense, like, and there's so much to. To. To actually figure out as a man that. That I realized this process will never end. By the time I die in physical form, I will keep evolving. And I had this. This profound moment. I'm like, oh, fuck. Like, I love being a man. And I really understood that, the power of that energy, the masculine energy, essentially, because that's what we need to do. It's. It's understanding, like, what this energy is and how to embody that. But to actually be a complete man, you have to. To connect with your feminine side also. Because both. We both have both energies inside of us. And as a man, if you can, if you don't connect with the feminine part, you fall apart, you suffer.

Yeah.

Because the feminine energy within us as men is connected with our soul. I was talking to you about the concepts, like with Carl Jung and the Anima Nanimus. So for us men, we have to connect with the feminine counterpart, which is literally our soul. You cannot bring your soul in unless you connect with the feminine energy. So it's not about being feminine, like being a feminine man, but you have to create that inner union of the masculine and feminine energy within you. And the same with women, but our process looks different compared to how women will do it. That. That's. That's the thing.

So. So what do you think? So do you think it's going to come down to the man awakening to that. That. That divine understanding.

Yeah.

Of his essential nature and function in the world? Do you think that's going to knock this feminism, this, this. The pendulum obviously has swung very far onto the side, and we have more men now stepping up. But I would like to think there is, because, you know, we surround ourselves with a lot of them. But as that happens more and more, we're going to see the pendulum swing back where. Who knows when. 10 years, 20 years.

Yeah.

Women will go back to more of an essential function.

It's already happening.

And not the naturalness in their function, which is to. To. To be nurturing, to be. To be. To be the.

A mother.

Maternal.

Maternal. Yeah. Mm.

Which. Which is that. That. That's. That's. Again, why. How long is it going to take for that to happen? We're going to see the ramifications of this. This movement over the next five to 10 years when the population is about to fall off a cliff because no one's really having kids anymore. We spoke about that the other night in Bali, the significance of that. But that's the swing, right?

We're swinging, and essentially there's. There's all these forces obviously, like out there that have, have attacking both men and women because essentially if, if people do their research and they actually see who started feminism, it's. They're going to, they're going to actually like get really angry. And this is the problem, like with the feminist movement, if we even really understood where it came from, because essentially, like it happened from the same, the same people that they started attacking masculinity.

Right.

That's, that's what happened. But the reality is it was also even that it was a great opportunity because it went things to the extreme. And essentially in order to find the balance in the middle ground, you have to play with extremes. It's an important part of that process.

Yeah.

If you get stuck there, as we said with everything, this is where you suffer. So the reality is it actually, the feminist movement and feminism, it actually awakened women's women to certain aspects of, of, of feminine. And what it means, it means to be a woman so they can become more complete. But essentially at the same time, that movement had also like all the negative impact and it keeps getting worse and worse so that women that they actually awaken and actually see properly like themselves, I do feel, you know, and I've seen it through my own clients, there's so many women out there that they have been doing such hard work, they have explored themselves so, so deeply and they seek actually like that's what they see. They seek to, after creating that inner union within themselves, to find that externally with, with a healthy, safe and strong man, to create a family. Like, I can find a more beautiful thing 100%. I think all this confusion, all this extremities and the craziness and all the stuff essentially how revealed to us what the truth is. And it is for me, sacred union and the family unit.

Yeah.

But it will be in a new form, in a more, in a more conscious and complete form. That's, that's, that's essentially what I feel.

Yeah.

Well, how many more?

Well, rounded form, for sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's the birth of this new, these new, more powerful like.

Because it doesn't mean that women are going to stop, you know, crushing it in business and doing these things. It can be both.

Right?

It can be. But then that's the thing. It doesn't mean that men are, you know, only going to be the providers and the bread.

You can't afford that anymore. That's, that's the thing. Because everything has changed.

That's right.

We have to adapt to that.

That's right. That's right. And that's what. That's. We just nailed. The point that I was sensing with Andrew Tate's perspective is that he wasn't taking that into consideration. He was lumping.

He's also extreme man.

He's. Yes, yes, the extreme. The extremity.

Very exciting. Yeah, yeah.

Because not all women. I wanted to. I want, gonna want to just stay home and, and raise the kids. No, what we're seeing is there's going to be a new level where that essential nature will come back, but there will be this new, this new world of possibility where both. It's just like there can be both in this ebb and flow between that.

But that's the thing as a man. That's the question that I want to raise as a man. Have you actually worked on yourself deep enough to. Being able to, to show up for your partner? Let's talk about, about the relationship with a feminine to your partner, with this level of presence and leadership that not only you will make her feel safe to create a family with you, but you can actually also be strong enough and support her through that journey that, that she will be able to still remain herself and operate from that place. And she can also pursue her own endeavors. And you can create together like this birth, this beautiful thing. Not just the family, but all the things that you can create together because you come as one. First of all, as individuals, there's no codependency or all the. We've seen all the crazy patterns and attachment problems and all the stuff and you're going to be able to stay together as the sacred container, but as individuals that come together and you can co. Create in this beautiful space. Essentially it's very, very important. And that's our role. If we don't work on ourselves, like in all the ways that we have been talking for so long to get to a point that as men we can show up in these beautiful ways. Women are not going to be able to fall safe. And we actually need each other. We need women and they need us. That's the truth. But what do you see out there? You see all these hyper masculine women, oh, I don't need a man. I can't do everything by myself. By myself. Like literally all you see. And then you see men. Why have a woman where like I can literally just, you know, just be a little boy going around having fun all the time and just being with as many women as possible and all the stuff and, and then who is having kids?

Who is.

What are we gonna do. That's the thing.

Yeah. So there's. There's this, this next level of kind of maturity that we're seeing.

Yeah.

Come through now after we've. We've all go as a collective, gone through this cycle of dark night.

We have to go through that phase, man. It's important. This is where you see actually like the. The truth, essentially.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and Covid sped up the process. Like, I feel like massively, without a doubt, massively fuck.

Well, maybe. Maybe we should leave the guys and girls listening with some, some practical takeaways from this because now if they've taken all of this on board, you know, man or woman, what's something that maybe. Let's start with the men. What's something that the men can now be cognizant of when they now go back into their lives if they want to step into this, this integrated, evolved form of masculinity that we've been referenced to support the. This, this, this grand union that's coming back together and that the path that we. We're meant to walk on this earth. What. What? Some. Some things they should be aware of and how can they actually take. Take something away from this and actually apply it into their life and see. And see fundamental change? What. What would be the first places that you suggest they start for me?

Taking a good look yourself in the mirror and decide to fucking say the truth. Stop lying, literally. Face yourself in a mirror and commit to yourself. From now on, I will just say the truth. I'm not gonna hide. I'm just gonna face myself properly. It starts from there. And then there's so many things that you can do from obviously, obviously investing in someone to guide you through a process. There's amazing books that I will. I want to actually like refer to before we close this podcast. There's so much good information in podcasts and all the stuff. This I feel, I definitely feel there's going to be a lot of value here. Yeah, there's. There's so many. So many things to explore, but from the moment that you're going to commit to that, you're going to figure it out.

Yeah, well said.

You're going to figure it out. There's no way. Yeah, but you have to go there because if you keep lying to yourself, you're not going to commitment. And we both know how. How much men struggle with committing, so.

That'S a good place to start. Where have you been? Bullshitting yourself.

Yeah, where have you been? Where are you lying? Where are you Hiding.

Yeah, that's it. Make a list and start to chip away at it.

There's going to be a big list. I can kind of see you.

That process myself recently.

You have to do it consistently, man. You have to do it consistently because.

That, that actually is the. I love that you said that's the first place to start. Because the moment you feel like something's out of alignment in your life, it's usually because of that.

As soon as you have committed to yourself, you're always going to keep going back to actually check with yourself, okay, am I in integrity? Am I operating from that place? What do I need to look at? Am I lying? Am I manipulating? Like, there's so many things. So from the, the moment you commit, there's no way that you're not going to actually keep consistently, like, reflecting on yourself and checking yourself. You will find the information. You will find the guys. They will show up, because that's what happens. From the moment you commit, things will come to you that will, that will take you there. There's no way that. That's. That's the thing.

Yeah.

And for everyone, it looks different. And this is the thing. It goes back to the thing that we said in the beginning about putting people on a pedestal, because you shouldn't. You can get so many good things from everyone, but the process is individual. It's your own process. Even the connection with the divine, you should look for that by yourself. Yes, you are going to have guides, but if someone tells you they're dogmatic and they tell you, no, follow my thing, run away straight away, or if someone tells you I'm going to heal you, run away. People will show you how to do it. And essentially they just show you what you have already. Like, the right guide or the right teacher will show you what you have inside of you already. So this is the thing. And our connection is individual. So you have to figure out what that is for you. And there's definitely something there. So when someone says, like, there's no God or there's no divine and everything.

Man, like, unfollow any of this that you see online where people are promoting, marketing this healing and, and, and presenting it in this, this, this way, this.

Beautiful package that it's so shiny, sign.

Up for my course and you'll get to experience the Kundalini awakening.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Don't.

There's so much craziness and nuts.

So for the women now, now to have taken some of this on board, like, they feel that they resonate with it. What can they start to do to bring themselves more online and surrender into more of their essential nature, whatever that may be for them individually? What's, what's a practical takeaway for them?

One thing that I do feel hurts women at the moment in the process because they definitely commit to this kind of work way more than men. The thing that I do feel they get stuck with is essentially victim mindset and blaming men, you know, because obviously a lot of women, they have been heard by the machine a lot straight away from the father and, and all sorts of stuff. But the reality is, if you internalize that and you start doing work, but you don't allow yourself to actually take responsibility and take your power back, and you keep still projecting to the masculine that it's. It's the problem for everything. You're not going to allow yourself actually to go there, and there's no way you're going to attract the right partner. So I feel this is, this is like, I've seen it so many times, like, women get really stuck there, you know, which essentially creates problem with a connection that they have with the inner masculine and their soul. So I feel this is, this is a big thing for them, like, to really acknowledge that. Yeah, okay, I have been here to had all these experiences, you know, but, okay, I take responsibility now. This is my process and I'm gonna work through that.

So just monitoring the perception around the masculine, it's.

It's the projections.

Yeah. Because the perception's creating the projection. If the masculine is this or the masculine is this, you know, how many.

How many women have you seen that they keep complaining, oh, I can find a good man. I can't find a man to have kids like this and that. But the reality is you believing the story. That's why you're not bringing someone in.

Correct.

You know?

Yeah.

And yes, it can be unconscious. It can be. That's what they still carry on the nervous system. This is, this is how I also work with women. I help them, like, in a lot of ways overcome that so they can attract, like, the right partner. But, you know, like, you have to take responsibility at some point and actually see which ways you are projecting to the opposite sex, external yourself, and what impact it has inside of you. Yeah, you know? Yeah, that's. That's the thing. So that's why saddle work is very important. Like, we had a conversation so many times. Yeah, man, it's. It's probably one of the most important, like, kind of work that we all.

Have to do, without a doubt.

So we can really see how we are projecting to the other sex, to authoritarian figures, to. To, to all sorts of ways and get our part.

And then a lot of it's in the subconscious. Like we alluded to this, this unconscious.

Is that this beautiful bridge between the.

Unconscious and that's 95% of our reality.

Yeah, yeah.

And we may consciously think we're doing the right thing or making the changes, but if there's this subconscious program creating this unconscious projection.

Yeah.

Then we're going to keep being reflected that we don't want or the shit that's just still not. Not the reality with the we desire, you know. So, yeah, big theme of the conversation today. What would be some of those books you mentioned?

So for me, the most important book, and I do believe this should be taught in schools especially like, you know, for, for teenagers. It's called Dinner Work by Robert Johnson, which is probably one of the best, probably the best union analysts. This book will teach you exactly how to do the inner work not with fluffy stuff, nor. But properly. So you can really understand your psychology and really work through that. Because, because every, like through our conversations, what, what kept coming up for me is yes, we have all these different like tools like the breathworks and the medicine and the somatic work and all that stuff, but the psychological component is really like what we really need to integrate properly and walk through every other. Through those experiences. And I feel a book, this kind of book really teaches you how to do that work properly.

Fantastic.

So there's that. There's another book from Robert Augustus Master which is called Spiritual Bypassing. It's very relevant at the moment and it really shows all that delusions and distortions and, and it really ties together with, you know, with the other book. And then from another Jungian analyst, His name is Dr. James Hollis. Actually Andrew Huberman brought him on his podcast six, eight months ago. I think he's 83 years old. He's so articulate and sharp. Brother is amazing. I literally became one of his biggest fan this last one year. His book into the Dark Wood, it's. It's amazing.

Okay, we'll get that all linked up in there. Yeah, it's. And you know, mate, if someone's made it this far, well done. Well, 100. There's a lot to integrate from this journal. Reflect, sit with it.

Yeah.

Chewing on, chew on it.

There's. There's so much.

But may, as per usual, just real, real, real honored to sit down and have these conversations with you. We have a lot of them offline but to capture one, to record one now, and to put it out to the world at a time where we felt like this was needed, really, really blessed, man, to have you in my corner and to call you a brother. You know, we both leave tomorrow. Back, back to Bali, all the synchronicities. So until we cross paths again and meet again, bro, I love you and thank. Thank you for this. This was really special.

Likewise, brother. And I'm really grateful for you, and it's really inspiring to see you, how much you have been growing and how much you are caring about men and really doing that work.

Thanks, man.

Staying consistent. So love you, brother.

Love you, Brian.